Hi thanks for watching my video & since making it a year ago I’ve made updates which I say I now charge to 100% at home and superchargers enough to get me to my destination or next charger. Thanks for watching & take care
I have a 2023 M3RWD. I don't need 100% daily. I charge to 100% on Sunday nights. Set it to 80% the next 2 nights. Then on Wednesday nights I set it back to 100%. Then 80% until Sunday. That way, at least twice a week, my BMS is calibrated. I know LFPs can tolerate 100% better but it's still a Lithium battery. I think Tesla doesn't want to confuse people so they just say set it to 100% and be done with it. I'd say most people won't keep a car long enough to see any serious degradation and Tesla knows that.
There is some truth and misleading info in what is said in the video. The degradation of the battery isn’t given by the range you see at full charge. That’s a number based on an algorithm used by the BMS, based on the lowest and highest voltage of the cells readings (and some other stuff) of a LFP battery. The LFP battery has very low difference in voltage between max and min values. This is why the car needs to be charged to 100%, so that the cells are balanced and the BMS is capable to read the max value. If people drive their LFP cars only a small amount of capacity every day (from 80% to 60% SOC) the BMS will fuckup and no longer will be able to read the Min and Max values correctly. If someone wants to know the capacity loses, he has to charge to 100% and drive the car in one run to 3-5% and note the kWh used. And compare this number with the battery capacity they had in the day one they got the car. It’s important to have this reference number though. This is how the capacity loses are measured, not using a number on the screen given by a BMS algorithm.
@@nigep one more thing. The LFP batteries are happy above 35C internal temperature. This is why in cold weather it is important to precondition the battery (start preconditioning and let it go for at least 20 mins if at home, ready for a long trip). And when you drive, always input the destination being a charger, to allow the warming up of the battery before arriving to the charger. If you don’t do this, the heat pump will scavenge the battery temperature to heat the cabin. So you have a cold battery, and you don’t want this.
The LFP needs 100% charge to get an accurate reading of its battery. It has a variable buffer, as it’s weakness is it is bad at accurately determining battery capacity. So if it isn’t charged to 100% regularly, the buffer increases to account for inaccuracy. So if you are not charging to 100% your buffer will get bigger and you will get less range when you click on the reading in the car as the buffer has gone up. So by not charging to 100% at home once a week, you will lose range. You don’t charge to 100% on a Supercharger, even LFP really. Your reduction may already be caused by the car adding extra buffer. Let it run down to about 5% then charge to 100% and the reading may be different. Remember, battery degradation is usually quicker at first then slows right down. So it won’t drop as much anyway. So even charging to 100% degradation would be less going forward anyway. I think you need a rethink. As someone below mentions, don’t worry about it, the article you read isn’t great I don’t think, and for example, doesn’t even mention the variable buffer.
Apparently from what I've read LFP batteries do have a bit of a sudden initial drop off but then it calms down a lot. I think the other thing to consider is if not charged to 100% regularly so they understand and calibrate what 100% is how do you know you're actually charging to? I haven't got my LFP Tesla yet and doing the same kind of research, I think I'll fully charge it at least every month. I do have an Audi e-tron 55 and I've lost 2% of range on that in the last year (13,000 miles), I think I saw 1.5% fairly quickly and then it's tapered off significantly. (I've been charging to 100% on that every day as it's a lease)
The initial "break in" of the battery will loose the most in the shortest time frame, it will then stable off. With LFP cells, you can get 3000-4000 full cycles (100%-0%), so if you are not doing full cycles, it will last more than that. This is over 1 million miles before degradation hits 80% charge left. The main issue is resetting the state of charge gauge. Tesla's engineers are some of the best in the world, they know what they are doing. Charge to 100% when needed and don't worry about it.
@@nigep I would probably only keep it at 70/75% SOC at all times thus keeping it well under the degradation radar and the 90% recommended for other chemistry`s... 100% charge would be once every 2 months or a good 250mile run...
I have over 3500 miles on my new 2023 Tesla 3 and keep my car at 100% most of the time on the home charger. It is the same as the first time I charged it 3 months ago….270 miles. I’ve lost nothing so far!
The loss happens regardless of your hability to notice.. it is part of the chemical process within the fluctuations among the anode and cathode imagine a filter in the middle of an hourglass which gets clogged overtime. While keeping it at 100% means all the sand at the top pushing into that filter.
It seems like there are two issues: how often you charge to 100%, and how long the car sits at that level. Another unanswered question is, what happens when the BMS incorrectly indicates zero range remaining? I just got a Standard Model 3, LFP battery. My plan is to charge to 100% only just before I am able to use the car to lower the level to at least 90%. When charging to a lower limit, I plan to pay attention to the number of miles driven since the last charge, in addition to looking at the less-than-accurate battery level indicator.
It's a little like equalizing a lead acid battery at higher Voltage and low current in order to balance out the cells, which boils off a little fluid in the process. LFP cells have a very flat voltage curve that only starts climbing at the end of change, so they can only be accurately measured when they're above 90% or about 3.5v. Of course the higher you go the more accurate the balancing. 100% is 3.65v, which is 150mv difference across the top 10 %, then over the next 70% down to 3.35v is also about a 150mv drop, with the remaining 20% then dropping off steeply, so you also get a solid read on the bottom, for the little it's worth. Just check out any LFP charge curve and you'll get the picture and see why in order to balance the strings correctly you need to keep the cells above at least 90% periodically for sufficient time, which will depend on the balancer load limit and battery and use condition. If I had one, I'd probably go to 95% but give it time to sit there for awhile, or 100% if on the move, maybe once every 5 to10 x 50% charges and more often if running the pack below 20%. The numbers are to paint the picture but they're not far off. It's a shame you can't see the cell voltages like you can on a $100 chinese BMS and simply watch how the balancer works with LFP cells. Maybe in an update one day. Forgot to mention, an unbalanced pack will also have a reduced capacity, since the capacity of whole pack will be limited by that of the least charged or weakest cell. Once again we have a balancing act. Ain't that life huh?
Very good information @GBCobber, thank you. I'm charging at home every night my Tesla LFP. I read in one forum that in order to obtain a "good regenerative braking", the SoC should be 80% or less. I got it as an advice that once a week charge to 100% (for calibration) and the other times 80%-95% (in order to obtain best battery longevity results and less use of mechanical brakes). And what about the calibration after each charging session to 100%, even two times in a same day? What's your opinion?
My wife and I bought an LFP Tesla this past summer and now have about 8000 miles on it. It started with 273 miles of range and now we have 268-269. HOWEVER, I have noticed that now that the range has gone down, the car's "guess-o-meter" will stay at 269 miles for about three or four miles down the road until it starts counting down! My contention: Some of this is degradation, some of it is the algorithm adjusting for our predominantly highway driving, and some of it is inaccuracy and we actually get more miles than it predicts! I'm not too worried about charging to 100%, which we do about twice per week. However, I will NEVER charge to 100% unless I know that we are going to be driving it the next morning so it will never sit at 100% for more than a couple of hours. Thanks for the video, sir!
Keep in mind, besides the the amount you charge, the biggest culprit for degradation would be the rate of charge and discharge, Superchargers pump in a lot of current, so charging at a lower charge rate like home, would extend your battery life. A lot depends on your battery chemistry.
This is way less of a concern for LFP batteries. The iron in the LFP battery is way more stable chemically and can handle much higher temperatures than batteries that don't use iron. Add to that is the per given volume LFP batteries weight more. This extra mass takes longer to heat up as well. So shorter intense supercharging sessions charging to just 80% really shouldn't affect the battery at all. Better to break up a long road trip to more short charging sessions to just 80%.
That's very interesting as I had my blue mod 3 in march I've done 8000 already I love it and was putting it on charge to 100% 3 times a week. mayby I look to see if there is any battery degen and change my charge to 90%
Charging LFP batteries to 100% periodically in the recreational vehicle world has two main benefits. It balances the cells voltage and accurately resets the charge level for battery monitoring. But I would suggest doing so only weekly or less ofter as it does the batteres no good and may harm their lifetme by charging to 100% all the time. But yes, do charge to 100% just before a road trip in order to ensure range is calculated accurately.
Its perfectly normal! Tesla will lose biggest % of range in beginning, and then it will stabilize. Its not just Tesla, its every battery type and every modern BEV in market today. They all gonna act similarly. Comment from Jason is accurate!
You will do more damage by no longer charging to 100% since the battery will no longer be able to balance. Also, you can't calculate degradation based on the range indicated since that is calculated partially by your driving habits. Also, the first year or so will show the most degradation and it slows after that. Yes, all batteries will degrade, but the LFP will do so less. You might try what I do with my LFP M3. I typically charge from 30% to 70% because my daily doesn't require too much range. But, about once a week or as much as once every 10 days, I will drive it to below 10% and leave it there a few hours, then slow charge to 100%. I'll do it overnight regulating the rate on the app to arrive at 100% just before I drive. At most, it stays at 100% for 1/2 hour to an hour or so. After 11 months, my degradation is about 2.5%. Remember, balancing your battery must be done after it's down below 10% up to 100%. There are times that after this, you'll see higher range predictions because of the balancing. I know my comment is a year late, but some may find it useful. Also, my previous non-LFP Tesla almost never went over 80%. Only on road trips, otherwise almost never.
I charge my LFP 10 100% every single night...but I don't supercharge at all and actually only charge with the mobile connector. So a nice and slow charge rate.
This is why you don't go by the mileage and use battery percentage. I have the 55Kwh SR+ with LFP and it started 273 miles when new. 18000 later it states 251 miles. However I can still pull 51Kwh from it 100 to 0% after losses which is pretty good. (Baring in mind it has around 52.5Kwh usable) I think the mileage was just a bit unrealistic and now is just more accurate. Also point to note that if your battery is cold you'll see less range. You can see a blue portion on your charging selection bar on the app showing this. So don't worry about it
I don't have a Tesla Model 3 though I would love to have one. I have a Chevy Spark EV that does have an LFP battery. I think this video is spot on. I only charge to 100% once a week which is to keep the range estimator accurate. When I get home I immediately charge to 70% or just under. Since I don't drive everyday this is the ideal percetage of charge to leave the EV sitting at. Then when I know I am going someplace I charge my EV more if I am going to need more range than 70% affords me. Or course if the EV sits or a week or two at 70% no real big deal. I do my best to not let my battery get below 20%. I know EV manufactures add a buffer range to both top and bottom so 20% indicated isn't the real 20% nor is 100% the real 100%. Staying between 20% and 70% indicated will just insure I am in the safe zone and if I go a bit below or above isn't going to do any damage either.
They recommend. Doesn't mean you have to. Charging to 100% at superchargers is a waste of time and money. You never supercharge to 100% unless you can't get to your destination or next supercharger. You charge just enough to get to the next supercharger leaving a buffer of at least 10% in case you run into problems at the supercharger. Best practice is to not exceed 80% at superchargers, especially if it is busy. Also there is always more degradation at the beginning of the battery life. The degradation stabilizes as the battery wears in. Alot of supercharging will degrade the battery faster obviously.
Here is my speculation on why the LFP battery needs to be charged occasionally to 100% in order to keep the range calculation in calibration. The reason is that the voltage vs. state of charge curve of the LFP battery is so flat that voltage can't be used to determine the state of charge except at 100%. Can someone confirm this for me?
Yes, this is absolutely correct. You cannot use voltage to measure state of charge. It's done with coulomb counting and tiny inaccuracies in measurement will add up throwing your state of charge measurement off over time. A 100% charge gives a new starting point measurement.
That is correct. Between 20% and 80% the voltage curve is flat. The computer can estimate based on current flow. But if you know from school, if you integrate trough time, you get a summation error which has to be reinitialized. The SoC calculation between 20% and 80% is based on this current summation which isn't that accurate. But above 80% to 100% it get's better and then the Ah/V gets balanced out and the SoC% calculation gets a better reading of the actual SOC and then uses that later on again to use current summation to estimate the SOC.
This is one of the few videos I have seen really discussing this issue with the LFP batteries. People are talking about the degradation, but they are not talking about reducing the charge to help address it. I would love to know what happens if you only decide to charge it to 80 or 90% daily. Is it going to lose more capacity? Will the BMS get confused? I would love to know what happens. I am more inclined to not fully charge just because that is what I have always done. The LFP option looks interesting, but I am concerned about this charging question. Please post a follow up on how this works out and what you are seeing since changing the charging. Any issues?
Thanks since this video I do now charge to 100% as advised by Tesla at least once a week but I’m going on a long road trip next week using superchargers and I’m not sure to charge to 100% or 90% Interesting point what happens if you never charge to 100%
@@nigep The recommendation to charge to 100% is kind of concerning. It makes me wonder if they are working on a BMS that can sort out the voltage and health without stressing the battery. I realize the LFP cells voltage max is much lower and should be less stressed, but the fact that there is a fairly sizable degradation would seem to indicate that there is still stress happening. I saw something about the max voltage being 3.6 and Tesla is only going to like 3.54 or something like that to try to not stress it. I think we are going to see a lot more LFP batteries so I hope something can be figured out. I am trying to decide between the SR or the LR. Thanks for sharing your adventure with us. I hope you have a fantastic trip! Looking forward to the trip report! 🙂
@@Longsnowsm I don't know how Tesla's cell balancing circuit is set up but due to the curve of LFP you want to balance when the cells are above 3.40 and that is when the curve is more vertical than horizontal. I balance my LFP above 3.50 and have no problems. Lithium Ion is much more sensitive to upper range charging degradation. LFP technically has a max charge voltage of 4.2V. Don't believe me? Go find some LFP charging instructions from manufacturers that is more than 10 years old. They were telling people to charge well above 3.65V but we learned there is not any capacity gained vs stress. So charging up to 3.65V is not really that bad compared to the stress NCM/NCA Lithium Ion is under when above. 4.0V. Its thought that every 0.10V decrease from 4.2V can DOUBLE Lithium Ion's cycle life which is why a lot of people with DIY powerwalls keep their cells between 3.0 and 4.0 for cycle life and safety reasons. A lot less likely to have a catastrophic failure of a cell when you aren't in the max voltage range at all and overcharging is a major culprit in Lithium Ion fires. Anyways, I wouldn't hesitate to charge to 100%. I'd be more concerned with how low 0% and 10% are in relation to cell voltage. I don't know the answer to that, I clicked on this video out of pure curiosity, my experience is putting together packs from raw cells like 18650, 21700, 38120 Headways, ANR26650M1B's from A123 and similar cylindrical cells. I do have some experience with prismatics and pouch cells too. Most of the people using LFP for energy storage don't go down to 2.5V, they usually prefer to stop the discharge at 2.75V..some even stop at 2.9V since the curve is nearly vertical at either end. On the high end most people only go above 3.5V for balancing reasons. Quite a few people stop at 3.5V and then every once in a while connect a board that does balancing at a much higher current than most BMS's on the market. If your cells are quality (and Tesla surely uses the best of the best) then they will not go out of balance much at all so if you only charge to 90% no big deal. Charge to 100% a few times a year at least and that should be plenty. If you charge to 100% every time you might lose a wee bit more range than another owner but the amount would be almost unnoticeable. I'd stick with charging to 100% at least once per month IMO
Thanks for the video. Mine is at +9,000 miles and I've lost about 1.9% , charging to 100% daily from home. I'm going to start charging to 80% from here on and see if there's any further degradation (for the next 2 months). Please keep us posted. Thank you.
You should research lithium iron phosphate batteries. With their previous batteries you should only charge to 80%, but in fact with these batteries charging to 80% accelerate the wear a lot faster. These batteries need to be charged to 100% because they will actually have a memory effect and forget they can be charged further. Keep in mind that these batteries have a break-in period of a few hundred cycles. This means in the first year or two, you're going to lose about 10 to 15% of your range and then it will flatten out and you won't lose anymore. This is why these batteries go an extra 50 or 60 miles past there estimated range, in the real world, because Tesla puts in the buffer to make sure that after the breaking period is over, it settles in with a realistic range
Degradation is not linear. So changing your charge habits to then watch for change makes ZERO sense at all. Teslas reputation is entirely associated with battery life and longevity…. Their motivation is to make the pack outlast the car. Do you believe a TH-cam video quoting some internet blogs or the biggest EV manufacturer partnership and data collector of battery packs in the world. Let’s be real here. If your now charging at 80% for the last 5 months. What’s your degradation saying? But of course, this data is pointless as degradation is not linear…..
Thanks for the Video very interesting. Did you try to balance the Cell Voltage? (Charge to 100%, drive till under 10% and than charge to 100% again till the car stops charging, balancing can take another hour or more after it shows 100%). Keep in mind that it is much harder to measure the right percentage for the BMS of a Lfp Battery because the CellVoltage difference between full and empty is much lower, so if you now only charge it to 80% after a while it could mean that this 80% showing isn't 80, maybe only 70 or 60%. Can you post the link of the Article? I couldn't find it.
On a slightly different issue, my sister has a model 3 with LFP batteries and the car loses a lot of range just parked in the driveway, around 22 miles in a 24hr period, we communicated with Tesla and they didn't resolve the issue. I just recently found out that my sister wasn't allowing the battery calibration process to run cancelling it before completing so that may be part of the reason. I'm going to discharge it below 10% then charge it to 100% to see if the calibration process runs completely and see if that resolves the issue.
Hi, thanks for watching and commenting If you leave the Tesla on sentry mode it does use a lot of energy, especially if there are a number of video notifications & recordings Take care
Well I looked at reducing the charging level to 80% but on reflection for the way I drive my car I don't think it is justified. Why? Because I charge to 100% and don't charge again until it drops into the 50% region. This often takes 3 - 4 days. During that time period the average state of charge is ~75%, well blow the 100% level, so should be fairly safe for the battery. Also works out well with Octopus Go 4 hour re-charging period to charge back to 100%. I guess what might be better is to wait until the car is down in the 10% range before charging as the batteries average SoC would be ~50%, however that will reduce the daily range possible when at low SoC ranges. My pervious car was a Tesla Model 3 NCA battery and that lost 11% range in one year! Even though, I never super charged it or charged over 80%. Of course, it's know that lithium batteries degrade faster in the first year or so of use, so 2%/year LFP may become
Thanks for the video. I’m looking for good info on the Lfp battery. But what you are measuring isn’t necessarily “degradation” especially in the beginning. We really don’t know what Tesla does with the battery management so it’s hard to say what’s happening. There’s an interesting article I read about how the computer needs calibration readings but can only do that with enough “sleep” time to get enough data. Until then it will estimate on the low side because charging more makes people less and than calling a flat bed truck. The LFP battery seems to be even more hard to get good readings for calibration than the NCA. When you hit 100% overnight for example the car will sleep and also the computer will get good data as to the condition of the cells. If I understand correctly this is why Tesla want at least one 100% reading per week. As for your calculation, afaik battery degradation isn’t linear you can’t just say I’ve lost 2% in XXX miles so therefore it will be zero in 50*XXX miles. There are other things like discharge/charge rate that will effect the l”usable life” of the battery other than capacity.
Hi since making this video a year ago I have posted some updates and I now charge at home to 100% and at superchargers enough charge to get to the next charger or my destination or home Thanks for the question and take care
I have been noticing the range drop on my m3RW which I took delivery in 10/31. It is about 3 miles dropped on full 100% charged. I only charged it to 100% for about 4 times only. I don’t use the car often and the daily drive is about 15 miles in average (some days will drive more than others but in average- 15 miles per day). I am very puzzled about the range drop and it is very weird. Also, I have about 2000 miles on the car. I think it was about 1400 miles when I noticed the drop. I have started charging to the car using lower amp. Is it a BMS not being balanced? Or is it a true battery degradation at so early stage?
I think mine was the same as yours at the same mileage and many days I wasn’t using the car but the degradation does slow down as more miles are driven
The reason why Tesla lfp batteries drive 50 miles past what they are rated for is because the first two years the degradation is very steep and flattens out around 85%. This is normal. Charging to 100% doesn't accelerate this, using it accelerates this. Charging to 100% is the best way you can make sure that you don't have a memory effect. Lithium phosphate batteries do in fact have a memory effect, and that if you continuously charge it to 80%, it will remember 80% as full and will refuse to charge further. This is actually an issue with the chemistry of the battery, not the software or the BMS itself. Charge it to 100% like every engineer of these batteries tells you to and the degradation won't be a big deal.
Lfp batteries do this, they seem to lose capacity initially and then dobt lose much for a long time or lose it very slowly.. In my rc models I experienced this and I think the end of life comes relatively quickly too in that capacity will drop off equally quickly at the end but tbh they last so long that the rest of the car will have fallen to bits by then.
I have a 2022 LFP Model Y. I also understood that the 'charge to 100%' guidance was more for accurate range prediction than it was for battery maintenance and LFP still would rather be charged to less than 100% if possible. But as a single charge largely lasts me a whole week anyway, I just charge it to 100% once a week or before road trips and don't worry about it too much. I always have the screen range set to a percentage and not a mileage too.
My M3 RWD mfr Sept/2023 Fremont CA workshop has 1% LFP batt degradation as per Tessie app. I charged 5 times to 100% total 237 kwh at only superchargers during last 1 month of ownership and driven 740 miles. Not sure if this is unusual.
I took delivery of my Tesla Model 3 with LFP battery in January, and it came with a range of 439 Km, which now sits at 430 Km of range, without the aero covers. If your daily driving is short commutes and doesn’t use a large percentage of the battery, then don’t charge the car until the battery percentage goes below 80 or 70 percent. I keep mine on percentage because the display range is not accurate. I’m in Canada, and I don’t plan my trips based on the displayed range because the car always takes me farther than the displayed range, even while using ac or heat. Enjoy the car and let it stays on percent. Cheers!
Great comments and very interesting It’s great having views from all over the world especially Canada Jennifer my wife is Canadian, she is from Alberta and likes it here in Cornwall but misses many things from Canada and her family We both think the Tesla is great Take care
I have a 2023 Mach-e with LFP batteries and have been charging to 80%. Ford says to charge LFP batteries to 100% at least once a month. Tesla says every week. I am splitting the difference and charging to 100% once every two weeks. I only drive about 7500 miles/yr total. Thanks for doing the video. How are you charging your vehicle now since doing the video a year ago?
Thanks for watching and sharing I now do charge to 100% at home at least once a week but try to only charge to 90% at superchargers The degradation has slowed down Take care
Lfp has a very flat voltage discharge curve which will make the status of charge quite hard to determine from that and make it totally reliant on the accuracy of its current meters. I also would not assume you have lost that much range as the gom uses al sorts of variables to estimate your range.
I watched a video of Cabbie London in his E Niro a while back, he’d done 50k miles with zero degradation. I wonder if the high speed super chargers are having a detrimental affect on the Tesla batteries?!!
Finally a video talking about LFP batteries that brings up some valid points! I recently purchased a 2020 TM3 with the LFP battery.. I have been trying to find out the best methods of charging to ensure I keep the battery very healthy. I think I will charge to 80-90 daily and to 100% every 7-14 days. I subbed and I hope I can find more info on charging habits, surge times and learning when to charge to save money. This is my first EV and I still don't know everything just yet.
U want to keep the battery for 2 million Kilometers then? The battery ALREADY last 3x longer. We have the best battery, why worry. Charging to 100% is less bad than fast charging it at 2.5C
@@MerchwithDan Tesla had SR models with NCM batteries(52kWh). But also a while they had LFP(55kWh) and later upgraded to LFP(62kWh) what does your range say? Mine 62kWh LFP says 428km when full.
Cell level degradation is fast when new, but used cells degrade much much slower. I made a mixed pack for home with some 7s used nmc 18650 and 8s used prismatic LFP. All those started in 2014 and 2016 with smaller capacities than new, however random measurements in 2022 and 23 lead to conclusion that each lost less than 1% since installation. I would NOT worry for degradation in the first 100 000 miles, it's just the beginning for 30 years of a LFP pack. if one or two cells go bad, take away the pack to use stationary for another century. My 2012 12V 4s LFP car battery has been in a quad bike, in 2 hondas in a volvo and back in another honda LFP outlive many cars years, winters, abuse, overcharge, overheat, freeze, zero volt discharge. Those Headway cells are indestructible. Let's hope CATL is as good.
The mistake here was to assume the LFD degradation was going to be linear. It is not. Tesla's advice is aimed at maintain the battery life so that they do not have to replace it under warranty. There is a relatively rapid loss at first which then slows down. It's best not to regard the initial capacity (= range) as the actual capability/range of the vehicle - in effect it has 'over capacity' to start with. This is yet another example of how different battery technologies differs from fuel tank technology! Apparently this behaviour is inherent in the way the chemistry of a LFP battery works. Don't forget that LFP can be charged to 100% and left at that charge level without any undue degradation - you should not do that with the higher energy density NMC types used in longer range vehicles. You can charge those t 100% but should then use the charge fairly quickly to avoid degradation. LFP is a safer but less energy dense technology, even less likely to burst into flames as it does not suffer from thermal runaway if the battery management system fails and is reportedly somewhat more environmentally and socially acceptable in manufacturer and eventual disposal.
Thank you sir. I just got my Tesla a week ago. Most places said don’t charge up to 100% but my Tesla app said charge it to 100%. I will probably keep it at 80% till I need to take a long road trip.
Interesting... it never made sense to me, anyway, to charge to 100% with the LFP pack, not only because it's bound to impact on battery health in some way, but also because it reduces overhead charging capacity, for the purposes of allowing regen braking, until the soc drops sufficiently. Currently on a later Shanghai M3LR, I've not ever charged above 90% in 20k mls, and generally hold charge between 40-75%, unless planning a particularly long round trip.
How often have you used the Tesla superchargers in that lifetime? For the record I've lost 1.1% over 3600 miles, always charging to 100%. Maybe need to rethink this now.
It’s about half of my mileage as I’ve done two road trips to Scotland from Cornwall I use charge place Scotland the slower chargers or destination chargers as much as I can away from home At home it will charge to 80% unless going on another road trip in future but up to now it’s mostly been 100% At superchargers I will alternate 80% 90% and 100% in future Thanks for your comments
@@nigep Thanks for the info. Hopefully our early losses are just down to the 'bedding in' of the LFP chemistry. I'll stop charging at 100% now, or just occasionally as recommended for the BMS to do it's stuff. I'll keep a record of how it goes.
In my opinion for daily use I would just always charge to 90% whenever you plug it in no matter the battery. I like the consistent regen braking. Charging over 90% basically disables it until it's back to 90%. I do have the LR model 3 though. I do know LFP battery is recommended to stay above 20% and fully charging it doesn't harm the battery like the other ones. I would not worry about it. If your battery ends up being damaged within that 8 year window for the warranty they will just replace it. Who knows if you keep the car that long and some new battery technology comes out maybe one day it will be cheap enough to fully swap out the battery pack to a better one.
My thinkling too. M3s do seem to be be built to enable battery pack exchanges, so who knows, sometime in the not-so-distant future, it may be possible to swap a current M3 battery for something substantially better. The rest of the vehicle is almost ageless. So many out there, they will really be the first cars that last "A Million Miles".
It's hard to understand why you would not follow the manufacturer's recommendations. After all, they are the ones who have experience with hundreds of thousands of cars and multiple failures and warranty claims. But evidently, you know better. Also, your comment about regen braking is incomplete. There is a setting on the car that uses the brakes to compensate for regen when regen is unavailable because of SoC or because of ambient temperatures. So there is no practical advantage from this perspective to charging less than 100%.
Just got a tesla (lfp) and lost a mile after 1k of driving. And I charge to 100% every chance I get. It's not a lot of loss (yet) but it got me a bit concerned until I realized that at the end of the day you have to look at the ev more like a phone than a gas car. The software is basically guestimating how much the mileage is based on a number of factors. But at the end of the day, it's not absolute and fixed. For gas cars the mileage-to-gas correlation is more in tune because there's less factors that effect the efficiency of gasoline (its pretty consistent). But with battery, you can literally waste power but leaving the car parked with sentry mode on and therefore get less mileage. Real battery degradation, I would guess, is when you can't charge to 100%. If your tesla's full charge drops to 99 or 98% I would then be a lot more concerned about degradation. I'm new to this so feel free to correct me if I'm understanding it incorrectly.
Thanks for asking Soon after I made this video 16 months age I decided to charge to 100% as recommended by Tesla and the degradation has slowed down & I’ve made more videos about it Thanks
Keep in mind that Lithium batteries will degrade faster in the beginning and then degrade slower over time. So you'll lose the first 4-6% quite quickly, but then it'll take many years for it to degrade further.
Are you actually sure it's "degraded"? While mine isn't LFP, I always charged my long range to 90% and it originally gave a quoted range of 307 miles, 16 months later it says 300 miles. All that being said, I still get around 32-33 miles for every 10% of the battery used which is exactly the same as it was when new, no matter what the car "says" its range is. So from 90%-10% I consistently get around 262 miles. (Obviously less in winter)
Just charge to 100% omce a week or once every 2 weeks. Other than that stick between 80% and 20%. It just needs a calibrate every now and then or you will actually cause damage to the battery. Also , avoid fast charging like its the plague, only do fast charging when its unavoidable and to maximum of 80%
I'm pretty sure it's normal for all lfp and li ion batteries to lose a percent or 2 from the first few charges then it slows right down to un noticeable
Your video is interesting. It contradicts what is generally reported about LFP batteries. I have an LFP house battery for PV. It will be charged to 100% whenever there is enough power. As far as I know, Tesla LFP batteries are not delivered in Europe, I think GB is still part of it, at least geographically, even if, as I hear from you, the international metric system is deviating again, which is otherwise only used in the USA - except in science. So did your Tesla really have blade LFP batteries installed?
@@nigep Then I may mixed it up with the Model Y. I myself have a Model S since 4 Years. With 67.000 Km my Charging lost is 3%. I guess that is pretty good. Calculated 450.000 Km 80%. Udo
The battery will degrade more initially. 6 miles might not be 2.2%, you need to flatten the battery and charge and then see how many miles and kwh consumed and then measure the amount of kwh to refill the battery. your battery will have a useable battery kwh and also a top and bottom buffer
Check out ‘not in the manual’ you tube videos. An Aussie engineer has done a very comprehensive analysis and isn’t worried by a misleading range prediction. The numbers you are worried about seem to correspond to software updates.
I tend to charge to 60%, and when I go on long trips, I do a 100%... There are so many Chargers that its not really needed, on some trips I found it better to start low and charge so I can arrive with a high SOC.
Well there should be a law that every ev be like mine. My Car has a 10% degradation buffer that means my car has 110% Brutto capacity. The car uses the 10% to balance out the degradation. Before 150k Km you dosent even need to think about it in most cases these cars are still over 100% and didnt used there full buffer. its not lfp but still awesome they did it that way.
I have been using lithium iron phosphate batteries for a long time with solar, and the 3 things that damage them are: charging too fast and charging all the way to 100%. Never had to worry about the wheather.
why trust the estimated max range, it is just difficult for any system to gauge state of charge of LFPs as the voltage pretty much constant till 20% SoC. it matters little especially at this mileage/age of car. LFP has 2x-3x more life than nickel based chemistries, being used in high cycle applications, and majority of EVs in China is LFP.
I don’t think it is degradation as much as it is learning the real range based on how you drive. Also we charge ours at 12 amps 99% of the time. According to Recurrent we still have a 269 mile range with just over 6,000 miles on the odometer.
I'd encourage you to scrap your data and repeat your testing now that the vehicle has more mileage, for a couple of reasons. Degradation is rapid in the first year or so, then tapers off significantly. The displayed range estimation is strongly influenced by driving characteristics and environmental factors, so it would be good to test again now that the computer has taken those factors into account
Your initial rapid loss is likely not due to keeping it at 100% SOC, but rather, because LFP has an aggressive degradation curve in the first year, and then flattens out. As far as Tesla battery life- I think it's overhyped. My 5 year old Model 3 (NMC) charges to 80% per Tesla advice, and it has 11% degradation in 66,000 miles. I believe this is due to repeated supercharging while towing (1/3 of my charges are supercharging).
I thought that was the whole thing with the LFP batteries, being able to charge to 100. But apparently that's a myth. So what's the point of them? Slightly higher energy density, but also higher weight... I don't understand😑
A lot of people say here 100% LFP charging is fine including Tesla but I will be charging once a week st home to 100% and on road trips but supercharger I will go to about 80-90% I think LFP batteries are also cheaper to produce and use less materials and easier to recycle Take care
great video. however : you can't calculate the life of the car all the way to 0% of battery health. Long before you reach zero, the car will have no use. At some point the car will barely be good enough to get to the shopping centre and back.
I Don't agree with your conclusion due to the simple reason that offically Tesla recommends to charge to 100 % even on a daily basis. If the case is that in a few years there will be Model 3's with significant reduced range on these cars, then Tesla will have a big problem. I assume Tesla is recommending to charge to 100 % for a reason. I charge my Model 3 LFP to 100 % 2-3 times a week.
lol it's not that bad that you need to charge it that often to 100%. Actually just don't think about it, and charge it to 100% once a week or bi-weekly. Don't worry. :)
I think it is wise to consider leasing a Tesla and the not worry about battery life at all, I do this paying $350 per month and will then get a new car with the latest technology when the lease expires.
That’s a great point you make I do of course, get the software updates regularly from Tesla so it feels like I’m getting the latest technology. Thanks for a great comment and leasing for money is a great option and I can understand why
That 100% LFP Charging fallacy from TESLA was because these batteries do not offer the same energy storage capacity/range as the ternary chemistries and as a marketing ploy to make customers buy these LFP vehicles, Mr Musk said you can safely charge to 100% with minimal degradation! Tesla is exploiting the fact that LFP can endure more charge-discharge cycles, but battery longevity is still based on how much, you top charge and much deep you discharge.
Adding to the conversation bcos I never hear any content provider talk about it. It is not degradation as you think. Tesla is limiting the usable kW in battery packs. Again usable. The question is why? To protect the battery for longevity? Like some said above... the bms is either not letting the top end charge or not letting you use the bottom end... even read it. Think about it... everyone is losing right around the same percentage.
You're not wrong and not right either :) LFP batteries indeed do suffer from 100% charge, but they suffer just a little. The biggest concerns is maintaining the BMS (battery management system) to recognize its full state of charge and capacity from 0-100% (like you said). The "harm" you do by charging to 100% is very little compared to confusing the BMS system that may drop your recognized capacity by much more. Furthermore, LFP batteries are way more robust compared to NCA batteries and they last longer. Your tesla is likely going to die (other components than battery) prior to the actual battery dying. LFP batteries can be rebuild or recycled much more easily and at a lower cost than NCA batteries. So charging your LFP to 100% should not be of your concern, your car components will die sooner anyway. Furthermore, your initial drop of range comes from two factors: tesla recognizes your driving style and adjusts the range accordingly, and EVERY battery will loose some capacity at the beginning, LFP or NCA. By charging to 100% you let the BMS in your LFP battery to recognize the range, and more importantly, to equalize the full charge between the cells. If you observe your app while charging, the app may suddenly go to charging state even though you had 100% already. That's because the BMS recognized some uneven state of charge between the cells and lets more energy in to equalize that. That is WAY more important compared to the harm you do with 100% charge in LFP. Most EV batteries fail because only one or two battery modules die. The rest of the modules is just fine. Tesla won't replace a single module, they will replace the entire battery. Some shops in the US already specialized in replacing modules only, and they do get a lot of Model S with the problem where one or two modules are dead. Also, charging at home is much better for battery life compared to superchargers. When you charge at home, go to 100%, but when you charge at superchargers, go to 80-90%. The first benefit is to save money, the second is time (charging curve, the charging power drops a lot beyond 80% state of charge), and the third benefit is less harm to your battery by limiting supercharging. That's all I could say. Your video can be a little misleading and led others to harm their battery management system in a good faith. All the best!
Not likely that the degradation would continue at the same pace. However, if it would then you actually would not have practical 350k miles useable life, but you would already be at 70% useable at around 100k miles. And thereafter not very useable in practice.
This isn’t new to Tesla LFP run a lower voltage and are stable at 100%. Think of voltage like pressure. A full water balloon ready to pop is unstable. Now fill it up half way… you could throw it at the wall and it won’t pop. Voltage is like pressure and LFP runs a lower voltage.
I think your calculation is incorrect. Degradation is NOT linear. You might lose 3% in the first 20,000 and then lose 5% over the next 100,000. The car is also adjusting range based on your roads, climate etc. It’s in teslas best interest to simplify the charging process and make them last as long as possible. It’s highly possible that 100% displayed is not physically 100% SOC. Same goes for 0%. If it WAS 100% SOC you would not be able to regen brake straight out of your driveway…. If it was 0% why do teslas continue to drive for 40miles!!!! The software is doing this for you! Have faith in the BMS!!!! Not one individual on this earth has better data collection on the health and management of large battery packs then Tesla. I think your way over complicating things. Having worked on batteries my whole life, I Personally I do what the manufacturer recommends, no blog article is going to have the motivation or knowledge above and beyond teslas own recommendations. The SINGLE biggest questions people have about teslas is battery degradation and range. I suspect Tesla want the best for your car…. If 95% SOC prevented 80% of the degradation, wouldn’t they say charge to 95%… I suspect the software is doing that for you….
Still so much to learn about EVs, it's all great knowledge-gathering. I have never gone over 90% soc yet with my M3LR, but have ended up dropping to less than 10% only once, and that was no sweat as there's always a bit more in reserve. The LFP claims for safe 100% charging were, perhaps, too good to be entirely trueful, and I was not completely convinced it was the best way to manage them. 90% with LFPs, 75% with Li would seem sensible limits for every-day use, without compromising pottering-about range. Ends up with both being about equal really.
I love all of the comments saying people are going to stop following Tesla the expert in batteries and start charging to 80%. If Tesla says charge to 100% daily when possible and 100% weekly then you should do it. What happens when you try to put in a battery warranty claim and you haven’t followed what Tesla says they may deny your claim as you did not care for the battery correctly.
Thanks in my later videos I do say I’m following the Tesla recommendations and suggest that all Tesla drivers do the same, but it is up to them. Take care
Yeah I used to used LFP batteries in my home built motorcycle about 7 years ago, used to need to charge fully to balance out the cells. Moved to better technology, was a massive improvement.
Never go above 90% or below 20%. Try and slow charge and limit superchargers. If you put the supercharger location in the sat nav they heat up the batteries. Looks like they are hot and left fully charged too often.
Problem is that you're putting video evidence of not following the manufacturer's recommendations. If your battery has an issue, it's possible you might not be lucky it happens for a few people and Tesla finds this video once you go get your under warranty battery replacement they might just tell you you've fucked up the BMS and that's on you :/ If your LFP battery is defective, 2.8 something % degradation in 7,7k miles is a little odd tbh.. it usually goes down yeah quite a bit but them stabilizes around 6-8% degradation after 100k-209k miles. So you're isn't starting good.. then you should continue using it as recommended by Tesla. I think we're getting a lot of proof that their cars are reliable even if yeah there are hiccups here and there.. and if your battery is defective get it replaced under warranty. You trying not to damange a potentially defective battery is like saying : "let's apply a small bandage on top of a severed artery" it'll slow down the issue but won't fix it :/ Go to 100% again so the BMS doesn't get dementia/Parkinson and see where it'll lead..
Thanks Geoffrey Since making the video I have been charging to 100% at home once a week and I’ve made videos on the subject For some reason, TH-cam seem to like promoting the video from a year ago Thanks for watching & commenting take care
I might only charge LFP to 100 % once a week, but according to this video LFP will outlast other battries and only degrade a few %. Watch from 23 min in. th-cam.com/video/FdZL8RF3thI/w-d-xo.html
I think you are mislead and the truth is more nuance : LFP max cell voltage is 3.65 but Tesla does not go up to this, the car considers 3.60V to be 100%. LFP chemistry reacts differently : low and high voltges vary very fast and you are only between 0 and 2% or between 95 and 98% but voltae is very stable between 10 and 90% so reading voltage is not helping to give state of charge in the middle. you only know for sure when 0 or 100%. In the middle you only rely on counting power in and out to calculate state of charge, it is a model = not fact. LFP like to be overcharged to dissipate some heat (GOOD for LFP) and this gives natural top balancing. Most chemical components require 60°C to be happy. (while nmc degrades at 35°C) Also degradation happens around 4.15V which never happens in a LFP. I have some prismatic LFPs that are swollen or are breathing they are larger charged and slimmer discharged, but they work, they still deliver. We should accept this new car degradation : this is run in, degradation will stabilize with much more miles. This is my esperience with various chinese LFP I hope it does the same with LFP Tesla.
You can't balance them properly below 85% soc. Even if the balancers are super fine res, there's not much differential to work with below that 80-85% mark. If you insist on 85% then at least leave it at that soc overnight, because the balance current at the lower diff will also be lower and it'll take much longer to equalize it all. .
Your range shown on screen is just a estimate from your driving habit and other factors. Thus it changes over seasons , habits and road conditions you hit or even tire wear.. What matters is how much energy it can store and spit back out. It can be achieved by reaching 0 and charge up to 100 and monitor amount of electricity put in from wall charger. evem this is not fully correct because no one wants to fully discharge an EV risking so many things in it. But not surprisingly, few brave people already done this and you can find many infos on this already. Clearly, Trying to calculate degradation from average estimated `mile` or % is already a wrong and misleading approach from a very start. There are many info and forums about this all over the internet. Also unbalanced battery is nothing better than degraded battery. LFP battery do need quite constant near 100 percent for balancing. Fully charged Li iron is still more stable than 60 ~70 percent charged li-ion. Simply put less stable means less life span. Also we have to take Tesla's unusable buffer zone as well. LFP will so easily withstand 20 percent degradation over 2000 full circle which is already more than what normal everyday driver can over 25 years of time. Last but not least, calendar life.. No matter what you try it it will loose life depending on the temperature will be kept in. Even with battery management system, it still looses it. And it can be quite noticeable if you don't live in Alaska. But of course it is not a good idea to charge it from lets say,, 85 to 100 every night. I would go somewhere 50 percent discharge and go fully charge for better charging efficiency. Even for LFP charging it from. 90 to 100 every timeis a crazy thing. In that sense , Yes 👍 you are right Tesla should have given more specific guideline for LFP charging since EVERYDAY CHARGing amount can be quite different.
HVB capacity loss is not linear with time or miles. The first 6 months to two years is faster and then the rate slows down. Don't worry about charging to 100% as often as you like.
Hi thanks for watching my video & since making it a year ago I’ve made updates which I say I now charge to 100% at home and superchargers enough to get me to my destination or next charger.
Thanks for watching & take care
I have a 2023 M3RWD. I don't need 100% daily. I charge to 100% on Sunday nights. Set it to 80% the next 2 nights. Then on Wednesday nights I set it back to 100%. Then 80% until Sunday. That way, at least twice a week, my BMS is calibrated. I know LFPs can tolerate 100% better but it's still a Lithium battery. I think Tesla doesn't want to confuse people so they just say set it to 100% and be done with it.
I'd say most people won't keep a car long enough to see any serious degradation and Tesla knows that.
can you set this schedule in the tesla app or on the car?
There is some truth and misleading info in what is said in the video. The degradation of the battery isn’t given by the range you see at full charge. That’s a number based on an algorithm used by the BMS, based on the lowest and highest voltage of the cells readings (and some other stuff) of a LFP battery. The LFP battery has very low difference in voltage between max and min values. This is why the car needs to be charged to 100%, so that the cells are balanced and the BMS is capable to read the max value. If people drive their LFP cars only a small amount of capacity every day (from 80% to 60% SOC) the BMS will fuckup and no longer will be able to read the Min and Max values correctly. If someone wants to know the capacity loses, he has to charge to 100% and drive the car in one run to 3-5% and note the kWh used. And compare this number with the battery capacity they had in the day one they got the car. It’s important to have this reference number though. This is how the capacity loses are measured, not using a number on the screen given by a BMS algorithm.
That’s lots of very interesting information thank you so much
@@nigep one more thing. The LFP batteries are happy above 35C internal temperature. This is why in cold weather it is important to precondition the battery (start preconditioning and let it go for at least 20 mins if at home, ready for a long trip). And when you drive, always input the destination being a charger, to allow the warming up of the battery before arriving to the charger. If you don’t do this, the heat pump will scavenge the battery temperature to heat the cabin. So you have a cold battery, and you don’t want this.
The LFP needs 100% charge to get an accurate reading of its battery. It has a variable buffer, as it’s weakness is it is bad at accurately determining battery capacity. So if it isn’t charged to 100% regularly, the buffer increases to account for inaccuracy. So if you are not charging to 100% your buffer will get bigger and you will get less range when you click on the reading in the car as the buffer has gone up. So by not charging to 100% at home once a week, you will lose range.
You don’t charge to 100% on a Supercharger, even LFP really.
Your reduction may already be caused by the car adding extra buffer. Let it run down to about 5% then charge to 100% and the reading may be different.
Remember, battery degradation is usually quicker at first then slows right down. So it won’t drop as much anyway. So even charging to 100% degradation would be less going forward anyway.
I think you need a rethink. As someone below mentions, don’t worry about it, the article you read isn’t great I don’t think, and for example, doesn’t even mention the variable buffer.
Thanks for commenting
Good advice
I will try the 5% to 100% charging some time
Take care
Apparently from what I've read LFP batteries do have a bit of a sudden initial drop off but then it calms down a lot. I think the other thing to consider is if not charged to 100% regularly so they understand and calibrate what 100% is how do you know you're actually charging to? I haven't got my LFP Tesla yet and doing the same kind of research, I think I'll fully charge it at least every month.
I do have an Audi e-tron 55 and I've lost 2% of range on that in the last year (13,000 miles), I think I saw 1.5% fairly quickly and then it's tapered off significantly. (I've been charging to 100% on that every day as it's a lease)
Thanks for your comments
The initial "break in" of the battery will loose the most in the shortest time frame, it will then stable off. With LFP cells, you can get 3000-4000 full cycles (100%-0%), so if you are not doing full cycles, it will last more than that. This is over 1 million miles before degradation hits 80% charge left. The main issue is resetting the state of charge gauge.
Tesla's engineers are some of the best in the world, they know what they are doing. Charge to 100% when needed and don't worry about it.
Thanks for your informative interesting comments
@@nigep I would probably only keep it at 70/75% SOC at all times thus keeping it well under the degradation radar and the 90% recommended for other chemistry`s... 100% charge would be once every 2 months or a good 250mile run...
@@kylereese4822 that’s not recommended, with this chemistry it’s better to get them to 100% more often
I have over 3500 miles on my new 2023 Tesla 3 and keep my car at 100% most of the time on the home charger. It is the same as the first time I charged it 3 months ago….270 miles. I’ve lost nothing so far!
That’s great
The loss happens regardless of your hability to notice.. it is part of the chemical process within the fluctuations among the anode and cathode imagine a filter in the middle of an hourglass which gets clogged overtime.
While keeping it at 100% means all the sand at the top pushing into that filter.
It seems like there are two issues: how often you charge to 100%, and how long the car sits at that level. Another unanswered question is, what happens when the BMS incorrectly indicates zero range remaining? I just got a Standard Model 3, LFP battery. My plan is to charge to 100% only just before I am able to use the car to lower the level to at least 90%. When charging to a lower limit, I plan to pay attention to the number of miles driven since the last charge, in addition to looking at the less-than-accurate battery level indicator.
It's a little like equalizing a lead acid battery at higher Voltage and low current in order to balance out the cells, which boils off a little fluid in the process. LFP cells have a very flat voltage curve that only starts climbing at the end of change, so they can only be accurately measured when they're above 90% or about 3.5v. Of course the higher you go the more accurate the balancing. 100% is 3.65v, which is 150mv difference across the top 10 %, then over the next 70% down to 3.35v is also about a 150mv drop, with the remaining 20% then dropping off steeply, so you also get a solid read on the bottom, for the little it's worth.
Just check out any LFP charge curve and you'll get the picture and see why in order to balance the strings correctly you need to keep the cells above at least 90% periodically for sufficient time, which will depend on the balancer load limit and battery and use condition.
If I had one, I'd probably go to 95% but give it time to sit there for awhile, or 100% if on the move, maybe once every 5 to10 x 50% charges and more often if running the pack below 20%. The numbers are to paint the picture but they're not far off. It's a shame you can't see the cell voltages like you can on a $100 chinese BMS and simply watch how the balancer works with LFP cells. Maybe in an update one day.
Forgot to mention, an unbalanced pack will also have a reduced capacity, since the capacity of whole pack will be limited by that of the least charged or weakest cell. Once again we have a balancing act. Ain't that life huh?
Thanks for all this information
👌 correct answer.
incredible analysis.
Very good information @GBCobber, thank you. I'm charging at home every night my Tesla LFP. I read in one forum that in order to obtain a "good regenerative braking", the SoC should be 80% or less. I got it as an advice that once a week charge to 100% (for calibration) and the other times 80%-95% (in order to obtain best battery longevity results and less use of mechanical brakes). And what about the calibration after each charging session to 100%, even two times in a same day? What's your opinion?
"And what about the calibration after each charging session to 100%, even two times in a same day? " with Tesla Superchargers I forgot to mention.
Great knowledge, Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the compliment
My wife and I bought an LFP Tesla this past summer and now have about 8000 miles on it. It started with 273 miles of range and now we have 268-269. HOWEVER, I have noticed that now that the range has gone down, the car's "guess-o-meter" will stay at 269 miles for about three or four miles down the road until it starts counting down! My contention:
Some of this is degradation, some of it is the algorithm adjusting for our predominantly highway driving, and some of it is inaccuracy and we actually get more miles than it predicts!
I'm not too worried about charging to 100%, which we do about twice per week. However, I will NEVER charge to 100% unless I know that we are going to be driving it the next morning so it will never sit at 100% for more than a couple of hours. Thanks for the video, sir!
Thanks for commenting with some great information
Take care
Keep in mind, besides the the amount you charge, the biggest culprit for degradation would be the rate of charge and discharge, Superchargers pump in a lot of current, so charging at a lower charge rate like home, would extend your battery life.
A lot depends on your battery chemistry.
Hi thanks for commenting with good advise
Take care
This is way less of a concern for LFP batteries. The iron in the LFP battery is way more stable chemically and can handle much higher temperatures than batteries that don't use iron. Add to that is the per given volume LFP batteries weight more. This extra mass takes longer to heat up as well. So shorter intense supercharging sessions charging to just 80% really shouldn't affect the battery at all. Better to break up a long road trip to more short charging sessions to just 80%.
That's very interesting as I had my blue mod 3 in march I've done 8000 already I love it and was putting it on charge to 100% 3 times a week. mayby I look to see if there is any battery degen and change my charge to 90%
Thanks for your comments
Take care
Its not a degradation. Its a bms wandering
Thanks for your comments
Charging LFP batteries to 100% periodically in the recreational vehicle world has two main benefits. It balances the cells voltage and accurately resets the charge level for battery monitoring. But I would suggest doing so only weekly or less ofter as it does the batteres no good and may harm their lifetme by charging to 100% all the time. But yes, do charge to 100% just before a road trip in order to ensure range is calculated accurately.
Thanks for commenting
Good advice
Take care
Its perfectly normal! Tesla will lose biggest % of range in beginning, and then it will stabilize. Its not just Tesla, its every battery type and every modern BEV in market today. They all gonna act similarly. Comment from Jason is accurate!
Thanks for your comments
You will do more damage by no longer charging to 100% since the battery will no longer be able to balance. Also, you can't calculate degradation based on the range indicated since that is calculated partially by your driving habits. Also, the first year or so will show the most degradation and it slows after that. Yes, all batteries will degrade, but the LFP will do so less. You might try what I do with my LFP M3. I typically charge from 30% to 70% because my daily doesn't require too much range. But, about once a week or as much as once every 10 days, I will drive it to below 10% and leave it there a few hours, then slow charge to 100%. I'll do it overnight regulating the rate on the app to arrive at 100% just before I drive. At most, it stays at 100% for 1/2 hour to an hour or so. After 11 months, my degradation is about 2.5%. Remember, balancing your battery must be done after it's down below 10% up to 100%. There are times that after this, you'll see higher range predictions because of the balancing. I know my comment is a year late, but some may find it useful. Also, my previous non-LFP Tesla almost never went over 80%. Only on road trips, otherwise almost never.
Thank you for great information
I charge my LFP 10 100% every single night...but I don't supercharge at all and actually only charge with the mobile connector. So a nice and slow charge rate.
That’s great thanks for your comment
This is why you don't go by the mileage and use battery percentage.
I have the 55Kwh SR+ with LFP and it started 273 miles when new. 18000 later it states 251 miles. However I can still pull 51Kwh from it 100 to 0% after losses which is pretty good. (Baring in mind it has around 52.5Kwh usable) I think the mileage was just a bit unrealistic and now is just more accurate.
Also point to note that if your battery is cold you'll see less range. You can see a blue portion on your charging selection bar on the app showing this.
So don't worry about it
Thanks for an interesting comment
If you use superchargers regularly , it increases degradation. Superchargers should be used as a last resort only.
Thanks for your comments
I saw a video somewhere on youtube that the first 10% of battery degrade quickly but after that it is solid stable
Great thanks for sharing
Take care
I don't have a Tesla Model 3 though I would love to have one. I have a Chevy Spark EV that does have an LFP battery. I think this video is spot on. I only charge to 100% once a week which is to keep the range estimator accurate. When I get home I immediately charge to 70% or just under. Since I don't drive everyday this is the ideal percetage of charge to leave the EV sitting at. Then when I know I am going someplace I charge my EV more if I am going to need more range than 70% affords me. Or course if the EV sits or a week or two at 70% no real big deal. I do my best to not let my battery get below 20%. I know EV manufactures add a buffer range to both top and bottom so 20% indicated isn't the real 20% nor is 100% the real 100%. Staying between 20% and 70% indicated will just insure I am in the safe zone and if I go a bit below or above isn't going to do any damage either.
Thanks for commenting
Interesting
Take care
They recommend. Doesn't mean you have to. Charging to 100% at superchargers is a waste of time and money. You never supercharge to 100% unless you can't get to your destination or next supercharger. You charge just enough to get to the next supercharger leaving a buffer of at least 10% in case you run into problems at the supercharger. Best practice is to not exceed 80% at superchargers, especially if it is busy. Also there is always more degradation at the beginning of the battery life. The degradation stabilizes as the battery wears in. Alot of supercharging will degrade the battery faster obviously.
Here is my speculation on why the LFP battery needs to be charged occasionally to 100% in order to keep the range calculation in calibration. The reason is that the voltage vs. state of charge curve of the LFP battery is so flat that voltage can't be used to determine the state of charge except at 100%. Can someone confirm this for me?
Thanks for commenting
Yes agreed in my later video charging to 100% occasionally is what I plan to do
Take care
Yes, this is absolutely correct. You cannot use voltage to measure state of charge. It's done with coulomb counting and tiny inaccuracies in measurement will add up throwing your state of charge measurement off over time. A 100% charge gives a new starting point measurement.
That is correct. Between 20% and 80% the voltage curve is flat. The computer can estimate based on current flow. But if you know from school, if you integrate trough time, you get a summation error which has to be reinitialized. The SoC calculation between 20% and 80% is based on this current summation which isn't that accurate. But above 80% to 100% it get's better and then the Ah/V gets balanced out and the SoC% calculation gets a better reading of the actual SOC and then uses that later on again to use current summation to estimate the SOC.
This is one of the few videos I have seen really discussing this issue with the LFP batteries. People are talking about the degradation, but they are not talking about reducing the charge to help address it. I would love to know what happens if you only decide to charge it to 80 or 90% daily. Is it going to lose more capacity? Will the BMS get confused? I would love to know what happens. I am more inclined to not fully charge just because that is what I have always done. The LFP option looks interesting, but I am concerned about this charging question. Please post a follow up on how this works out and what you are seeing since changing the charging. Any issues?
Thanks since this video I do now charge to 100% as advised by Tesla at least once a week but I’m going on a long road trip next week using superchargers and I’m not sure to charge to 100% or 90%
Interesting point what happens if you never charge to 100%
@@nigep The recommendation to charge to 100% is kind of concerning. It makes me wonder if they are working on a BMS that can sort out the voltage and health without stressing the battery. I realize the LFP cells voltage max is much lower and should be less stressed, but the fact that there is a fairly sizable degradation would seem to indicate that there is still stress happening. I saw something about the max voltage being 3.6 and Tesla is only going to like 3.54 or something like that to try to not stress it. I think we are going to see a lot more LFP batteries so I hope something can be figured out. I am trying to decide between the SR or the LR. Thanks for sharing your adventure with us. I hope you have a fantastic trip! Looking forward to the trip report! 🙂
@@Longsnowsm I don't know how Tesla's cell balancing circuit is set up but due to the curve of LFP you want to balance when the cells are above 3.40 and that is when the curve is more vertical than horizontal. I balance my LFP above 3.50 and have no problems.
Lithium Ion is much more sensitive to upper range charging degradation. LFP technically has a max charge voltage of 4.2V. Don't believe me? Go find some LFP charging instructions from manufacturers that is more than 10 years old. They were telling people to charge well above 3.65V but we learned there is not any capacity gained vs stress. So charging up to 3.65V is not really that bad compared to the stress NCM/NCA Lithium Ion is under when above. 4.0V. Its thought that every 0.10V decrease from 4.2V can DOUBLE Lithium Ion's cycle life which is why a lot of people with DIY powerwalls keep their cells between 3.0 and 4.0 for cycle life and safety reasons. A lot less likely to have a catastrophic failure of a cell when you aren't in the max voltage range at all and overcharging is a major culprit in Lithium Ion fires.
Anyways, I wouldn't hesitate to charge to 100%. I'd be more concerned with how low 0% and 10% are in relation to cell voltage. I don't know the answer to that, I clicked on this video out of pure curiosity, my experience is putting together packs from raw cells like 18650, 21700, 38120 Headways, ANR26650M1B's from A123 and similar cylindrical cells. I do have some experience with prismatics and pouch cells too. Most of the people using LFP for energy storage don't go down to 2.5V, they usually prefer to stop the discharge at 2.75V..some even stop at 2.9V since the curve is nearly vertical at either end. On the high end most people only go above 3.5V for balancing reasons. Quite a few people stop at 3.5V and then every once in a while connect a board that does balancing at a much higher current than most BMS's on the market. If your cells are quality (and Tesla surely uses the best of the best) then they will not go out of balance much at all so if you only charge to 90% no big deal. Charge to 100% a few times a year at least and that should be plenty. If you charge to 100% every time you might lose a wee bit more range than another owner but the amount would be almost unnoticeable. I'd stick with charging to 100% at least once per month IMO
@@ericklein5097Thank you for your very interesting comment. I will follow your advice for my Model 3 LFP.
Thanks for the video. Mine is at +9,000 miles and I've lost about 1.9% , charging to 100% daily from home. I'm going to start charging to 80% from here on and see if there's any further degradation (for the next 2 months). Please keep us posted. Thank you.
Thank you
You should research lithium iron phosphate batteries. With their previous batteries you should only charge to 80%, but in fact with these batteries charging to 80% accelerate the wear a lot faster. These batteries need to be charged to 100% because they will actually have a memory effect and forget they can be charged further.
Keep in mind that these batteries have a break-in period of a few hundred cycles. This means in the first year or two, you're going to lose about 10 to 15% of your range and then it will flatten out and you won't lose anymore. This is why these batteries go an extra 50 or 60 miles past there estimated range, in the real world, because Tesla puts in the buffer to make sure that after the breaking period is over, it settles in with a realistic range
Degradation is not linear. So changing your charge habits to then watch for change makes ZERO sense at all. Teslas reputation is entirely associated with battery life and longevity…. Their motivation is to make the pack outlast the car. Do you believe a TH-cam video quoting some internet blogs or the biggest EV manufacturer partnership and data collector of battery packs in the world. Let’s be real here.
If your now charging at 80% for the last 5 months. What’s your degradation saying? But of course, this data is pointless as degradation is not linear…..
Thanks for the Video very interesting. Did you try to balance the Cell Voltage? (Charge to 100%, drive till under 10% and than charge to 100% again till the car stops charging, balancing can take another hour or more after it shows 100%). Keep in mind that it is much harder to measure the right percentage for the BMS of a Lfp Battery because the CellVoltage difference between full and empty is much lower, so if you now only charge it to 80% after a while it could mean that this 80% showing isn't 80, maybe only 70 or 60%. Can you post the link of the Article? I couldn't find it.
Sorry I can’t find the original item but thanks for your interesting comment
Great video. I have a 2024 model 3 RWD on order that has an LFP battery. I like your advice and explanation.
Thanks Gary for watching and commenting
I think 100% charging at home is fine since making this video
Enjoy your Tesla when it arrives
Take care
On a slightly different issue, my sister has a model 3 with LFP batteries and the car loses a lot of range just parked in the driveway, around 22 miles in a 24hr period, we communicated with Tesla and they didn't resolve the issue. I just recently found out that my sister wasn't allowing the battery calibration process to run cancelling it before completing so that may be part of the reason. I'm going to discharge it below 10% then charge it to 100% to see if the calibration process runs completely and see if that resolves the issue.
Hi, thanks for watching and commenting
If you leave the Tesla on sentry mode it does use a lot of energy, especially if there are a number of video notifications & recordings
Take care
Well I looked at reducing the charging level to 80% but on reflection for the way I drive my car I don't think it is justified. Why? Because I charge to 100% and don't charge again until it drops into the 50% region. This often takes 3 - 4 days. During that time period the average state of charge is ~75%, well blow the 100% level, so should be fairly safe for the battery. Also works out well with Octopus Go 4 hour re-charging period to charge back to 100%.
I guess what might be better is to wait until the car is down in the 10% range before charging as the batteries average SoC would be ~50%, however that will reduce the daily range possible when at low SoC ranges.
My pervious car was a Tesla Model 3 NCA battery and that lost 11% range in one year! Even though, I never super charged it or charged over 80%. Of course, it's know that lithium batteries degrade faster in the first year or so of use, so 2%/year LFP may become
Thanks for your interesting comments
Thanks for the video. I’m looking for good info on the Lfp battery. But what you are measuring isn’t necessarily “degradation” especially in the beginning. We really don’t know what Tesla does with the battery management so it’s hard to say what’s happening. There’s an interesting article I read about how the computer needs calibration readings but can only do that with enough “sleep” time to get enough data. Until then it will estimate on the low side because charging more makes people less and than calling a flat bed truck. The LFP battery seems to be even more hard to get good readings for calibration than the NCA. When you hit 100% overnight for example the car will sleep and also the computer will get good data as to the condition of the cells. If I understand correctly this is why Tesla want at least one 100% reading per week.
As for your calculation, afaik battery degradation isn’t linear you can’t just say I’ve lost 2% in XXX miles so therefore it will be zero in 50*XXX miles. There are other things like discharge/charge rate that will effect the l”usable life” of the battery other than capacity.
Very interesting thanks for a very detailed reply with lots of information
My model Y has a Lithium-ion low voltage battery type! How should i charge my car?
Hi since making this video a year ago I have posted some updates and I now charge at home to 100% and at superchargers enough charge to get to the next charger or my destination or home
Thanks for the question and take care
I have been noticing the range drop on my m3RW which I took delivery in 10/31. It is about 3 miles dropped on full 100% charged. I only charged it to 100% for about 4 times only. I don’t use the car often and the daily drive is about 15 miles in average (some days will drive more than others but in average- 15 miles per day).
I am very puzzled about the range drop and it is very weird.
Also, I have about 2000 miles on the car. I think it was about 1400 miles when I noticed the drop.
I have started charging to the car using lower amp.
Is it a BMS not being balanced? Or is it a true battery degradation at so early stage?
I think mine was the same as yours at the same mileage and many days I wasn’t using the car but the degradation does slow down as more miles are driven
The reason why Tesla lfp batteries drive 50 miles past what they are rated for is because the first two years the degradation is very steep and flattens out around 85%. This is normal. Charging to 100% doesn't accelerate this, using it accelerates this. Charging to 100% is the best way you can make sure that you don't have a memory effect. Lithium phosphate batteries do in fact have a memory effect, and that if you continuously charge it to 80%, it will remember 80% as full and will refuse to charge further. This is actually an issue with the chemistry of the battery, not the software or the BMS itself. Charge it to 100% like every engineer of these batteries tells you to and the degradation won't be a big deal.
Thanks very much for interesting and informative comments
Lfp batteries do this, they seem to lose capacity initially and then dobt lose much for a long time or lose it very slowly..
In my rc models I experienced this and I think the end of life comes relatively quickly too in that capacity will drop off equally quickly at the end but tbh they last so long that the rest of the car will have fallen to bits by then.
Great advice Thanks
I have a 2022 LFP Model Y. I also understood that the 'charge to 100%' guidance was more for accurate range prediction than it was for battery maintenance and LFP still would rather be charged to less than 100% if possible. But as a single charge largely lasts me a whole week anyway, I just charge it to 100% once a week or before road trips and don't worry about it too much. I always have the screen range set to a percentage and not a mileage too.
Thanks for commenting smithleon
That’s great
How did you get a LFP model Y? I thought only China had those available
@@speedbird7976 no, all the RWD Model Ys have LFP batteries now.
My M3 RWD mfr Sept/2023 Fremont CA workshop has 1% LFP batt degradation as per Tessie app. I charged 5 times to 100% total 237 kwh at only superchargers during last 1 month of ownership and driven 740 miles. Not sure if this is unusual.
The degradation will slow down
I took delivery of my Tesla Model 3 with LFP battery in January, and it came with a range of 439 Km, which now sits at 430 Km of range, without the aero covers. If your daily driving is short commutes and doesn’t use a large percentage of the battery, then don’t charge the car until the battery percentage goes below 80 or 70 percent. I keep mine on percentage because the display range is not accurate. I’m in Canada, and I don’t plan my trips based on the displayed range because the car always takes me farther than the displayed range, even while using ac or heat. Enjoy the car and let it stays on percent. Cheers!
Great comments and very interesting
It’s great having views from all over the world especially Canada
Jennifer my wife is Canadian, she is from Alberta and likes it here in Cornwall but misses many things from Canada and her family
We both think the Tesla is great
Take care
I have a 2023 Mach-e with LFP batteries and have been charging to 80%. Ford says to charge LFP batteries to 100% at least once a month. Tesla says every week. I am splitting the difference and charging to 100% once every two weeks. I only drive about 7500 miles/yr total. Thanks for doing the video. How are you charging your vehicle now since doing the video a year ago?
Thanks for watching and sharing
I now do charge to 100% at home at least once a week but try to only charge to 90% at superchargers
The degradation has slowed down
Take care
Lfp has a very flat voltage discharge curve which will make the status of charge quite hard to determine from that and make it totally reliant on the accuracy of its current meters.
I also would not assume you have lost that much range as the gom uses al sorts of variables to estimate your range.
Thanks for the information Steve
LFP degradation curve is steeper than l-ion initially but tails off at around 8-10% and will stay relatively flat for far more cycles than l-ion
Thanks for commenting that’s great
I watched a video of Cabbie London in his E Niro a while back, he’d done 50k miles with zero degradation. I wonder if the high speed super chargers are having a detrimental affect on the Tesla batteries?!!
Thanks for commenting, interesting
Finally a video talking about LFP batteries that brings up some valid points! I recently purchased a 2020 TM3 with the LFP battery.. I have been trying to find out the best methods of charging to ensure I keep the battery very healthy. I think I will charge to 80-90 daily and to 100% every 7-14 days. I subbed and I hope I can find more info on charging habits, surge times and learning when to charge to save money. This is my first EV and I still don't know everything just yet.
Thanks you make many good comments
U want to keep the battery for 2 million Kilometers then? The battery ALREADY last 3x longer. We have the best battery, why worry. Charging to 100% is less bad than fast charging it at 2.5C
@@HermanWillems ended up learing that I dont have the new LFP battery even though it says I do. My vin number helped me figure this out.
@@MerchwithDan Tesla had SR models with NCM batteries(52kWh). But also a while they had LFP(55kWh) and later upgraded to LFP(62kWh) what does your range say? Mine 62kWh LFP says 428km when full.
@@HermanWillems ill get back to you
Cell level degradation is fast when new, but used cells degrade much much slower. I made a mixed pack for home with some 7s used nmc 18650 and 8s used prismatic LFP. All those started in 2014 and 2016 with smaller capacities than new, however random measurements in 2022 and 23 lead to conclusion that each lost less than 1% since installation. I would NOT worry for degradation in the first 100 000 miles, it's just the beginning for 30 years of a LFP pack. if one or two cells go bad, take away the pack to use stationary for another century. My 2012 12V 4s LFP car battery has been in a quad bike, in 2 hondas in a volvo and back in another honda LFP outlive many cars years, winters, abuse, overcharge, overheat, freeze, zero volt discharge. Those Headway cells are indestructible. Let's hope CATL is as good.
Thank you very much Alex, you obviously know your stuff
take care and thanks for commenting and watching
The mistake here was to assume the LFD degradation was going to be linear. It is not. Tesla's advice is aimed at maintain the battery life so that they do not have to replace it under warranty. There is a relatively rapid loss at first which then slows down. It's best not to regard the initial capacity (= range) as the actual capability/range of the vehicle - in effect it has 'over capacity' to start with. This is yet another example of how different battery technologies differs from fuel tank technology! Apparently this behaviour is inherent in the way the chemistry of a LFP battery works. Don't forget that LFP can be charged to 100% and left at that charge level without any undue degradation - you should not do that with the higher energy density NMC types used in longer range vehicles. You can charge those t 100% but should then use the charge fairly quickly to avoid degradation. LFP is a safer but less energy dense technology, even less likely to burst into flames as it does not suffer from thermal runaway if the battery management system fails and is reportedly somewhat more environmentally and socially acceptable in manufacturer and eventual disposal.
Thank you sir. I just got my Tesla a week ago. Most places said don’t charge up to 100% but my Tesla app said charge it to 100%.
I will probably keep it at 80% till I need to take a long road trip.
Thanks for commenting EB enjoy your Tesla as I do
Interesting... it never made sense to me, anyway, to charge to 100% with the LFP pack, not only because it's bound to impact on battery health in some way, but also because it reduces overhead charging capacity, for the purposes of allowing regen braking, until the soc drops sufficiently. Currently on a later Shanghai M3LR, I've not ever charged above 90% in 20k mls, and generally hold charge between 40-75%, unless planning a particularly long round trip.
Thanks for your interesting comment
How often have you used the Tesla superchargers in that lifetime? For the record I've lost 1.1% over 3600 miles, always charging to 100%. Maybe need to rethink this now.
It’s about half of my mileage as I’ve done two road trips to Scotland from Cornwall
I use charge place Scotland the slower chargers or destination chargers as much as I can away from home
At home it will charge to 80% unless going on another road trip in future but up to now it’s mostly been 100%
At superchargers I will alternate 80% 90% and 100% in future
Thanks for your comments
@@nigep Thanks for the info. Hopefully our early losses are just down to the 'bedding in' of the LFP chemistry. I'll stop charging at 100% now, or just occasionally as recommended for the BMS to do it's stuff. I'll keep a record of how it goes.
I will never use a super charger if I can avoid it. Too hard on the battery.
In my opinion for daily use I would just always charge to 90% whenever you plug it in no matter the battery. I like the consistent regen braking. Charging over 90% basically disables it until it's back to 90%. I do have the LR model 3 though. I do know LFP battery is recommended to stay above 20% and fully charging it doesn't harm the battery like the other ones. I would not worry about it. If your battery ends up being damaged within that 8 year window for the warranty they will just replace it. Who knows if you keep the car that long and some new battery technology comes out maybe one day it will be cheap enough to fully swap out the battery pack to a better one.
Thanks for your comments
My thinkling too. M3s do seem to be be built to enable battery pack exchanges, so who knows, sometime in the not-so-distant future, it may be possible to swap a current M3 battery for something substantially better. The rest of the vehicle is almost ageless. So many out there, they will really be the first cars that last "A Million Miles".
I never got this. Because 100% charge on LFP isn't really 100%. As the battery itself is really 62kWh
It's hard to understand why you would not follow the manufacturer's recommendations. After all, they are the ones who have experience with hundreds of thousands of cars and multiple failures and warranty claims. But evidently, you know better. Also, your comment about regen braking is incomplete. There is a setting on the car that uses the brakes to compensate for regen when regen is unavailable because of SoC or because of ambient temperatures. So there is no practical advantage from this perspective to charging less than 100%.
Just got a tesla (lfp) and lost a mile after 1k of driving. And I charge to 100% every chance I get. It's not a lot of loss (yet) but it got me a bit concerned until I realized that at the end of the day you have to look at the ev more like a phone than a gas car. The software is basically guestimating how much the mileage is based on a number of factors. But at the end of the day, it's not absolute and fixed. For gas cars the mileage-to-gas correlation is more in tune because there's less factors that effect the efficiency of gasoline (its pretty consistent). But with battery, you can literally waste power but leaving the car parked with sentry mode on and therefore get less mileage. Real battery degradation, I would guess, is when you can't charge to 100%. If your tesla's full charge drops to 99 or 98% I would then be a lot more concerned about degradation. I'm new to this so feel free to correct me if I'm understanding it incorrectly.
Good comment thanks
i would like to see the degradation result after you stop charging to 100% of the next 7k mi
Thanks for asking
Soon after I made this video 16 months age I decided to charge to 100% as recommended by Tesla and the degradation has slowed down & I’ve made more videos about it
Thanks
Keep in mind that Lithium batteries will degrade faster in the beginning and then degrade slower over time. So you'll lose the first 4-6% quite quickly, but then it'll take many years for it to degrade further.
Thanks for commenting and watching
Are you actually sure it's "degraded"? While mine isn't LFP, I always charged my long range to 90% and it originally gave a quoted range of 307 miles, 16 months later it says 300 miles. All that being said, I still get around 32-33 miles for every 10% of the battery used which is exactly the same as it was when new, no matter what the car "says" its range is. So from 90%-10% I consistently get around 262 miles. (Obviously less in winter)
Hi Thanks for your interesting comments
Yes I think it is degraded but if anything changes I will update with another video
Take care
Just charge to 100% omce a week or once every 2 weeks. Other than that stick between 80% and 20%. It just needs a calibrate every now and then or you will actually cause damage to the battery. Also , avoid fast charging like its the plague, only do fast charging when its unavoidable and to maximum of 80%
Thanks for watching and commenting and the advice
Take care
I'm pretty sure it's normal for all lfp and li ion batteries to lose a percent or 2 from the first few charges then it slows right down to un noticeable
Thanks for commenting
Don’t use super chargers to go to 100% using the mobile connector will not decease range so quickly when going to 100% bur fast changing will.
Yes I think that is 100% correct
Your video is interesting. It contradicts what is generally reported about LFP batteries. I have an LFP house battery for PV. It will be charged to 100% whenever there is enough power. As far as I know, Tesla LFP batteries are not delivered in Europe, I think GB is still part of it, at least geographically, even if, as I hear from you, the international metric system is deviating again, which is otherwise only used in the USA - except in science. So did your Tesla really have blade LFP batteries installed?
Thanks for your comments
Uk & Europe have had LFP Tesla’ model 3s delivered from China since 2021 & mine arrived last September
@@nigep Then I may mixed it up with the Model Y. I myself have a Model S since 4 Years. With 67.000 Km my Charging lost is 3%. I guess that is pretty good. Calculated 450.000 Km 80%. Udo
The battery will degrade more initially. 6 miles might not be 2.2%, you need to flatten the battery and charge and then see how many miles and kwh consumed and then measure the amount of kwh to refill the battery. your battery will have a useable battery kwh and also a top and bottom buffer
Thanks for commenting and the detailed information
Check out ‘not in the manual’ you tube videos. An Aussie engineer has done a very comprehensive analysis and isn’t worried by a misleading range prediction. The numbers you are worried about seem to correspond to software updates.
Thanks for this information James
I tend to charge to 60%, and when I go on long trips, I do a 100%...
There are so many Chargers that its not really needed, on some trips I found it better to start low and charge so I can arrive with a high SOC.
Thanks for sharing
Well there should be a law that every ev be like mine. My Car has a 10% degradation buffer that means my car has 110% Brutto capacity. The car uses the 10% to balance out the degradation. Before 150k Km you dosent even need to think about it in most cases these cars are still over 100% and didnt used there full buffer. its not lfp but still awesome they did it that way.
Thanks for commenting
I have been using lithium iron phosphate batteries for a long time with solar, and the 3 things that damage them are: charging too fast and charging all the way to 100%. Never had to worry about the wheather.
That’s great
I’m getting solar this year
Thanks for sharing
Do you expect to keep your car past 8 years? I’m sure I’ll have traded mine long before 8 years.
Not sure I have no plans but it’s a long time in the future
why trust the estimated max range, it is just difficult for any system to gauge state of charge of LFPs as the voltage pretty much constant till 20% SoC. it matters little especially at this mileage/age of car. LFP has 2x-3x more life than nickel based chemistries, being used in high cycle applications, and majority of EVs in China is LFP.
Thanks for your very interesting comments
Lots for me to think about
Take care
I don’t think it is degradation as much as it is learning the real range based on how you drive. Also we charge ours at 12 amps 99% of the time. According to Recurrent we still have a 269 mile range with just over 6,000 miles on the odometer.
Thanks for your comment
@@nigep Thanks, I updated my post, I left out some useful information last time.
I'd encourage you to scrap your data and repeat your testing now that the vehicle has more mileage, for a couple of reasons. Degradation is rapid in the first year or so, then tapers off significantly. The displayed range estimation is strongly influenced by driving characteristics and environmental factors, so it would be good to test again now that the computer has taken those factors into account
Thanks for the advice & watching
See Active Safety Features/ Speed Assist in 2024 Manual to turn off Speed warnings.
Thanks for watching & commenting
Your initial rapid loss is likely not due to keeping it at 100% SOC, but rather, because LFP has an aggressive degradation curve in the first year, and then flattens out.
As far as Tesla battery life- I think it's overhyped. My 5 year old Model 3 (NMC) charges to 80% per Tesla advice, and it has 11% degradation in 66,000 miles. I believe this is due to repeated supercharging while towing (1/3 of my charges are supercharging).
Thanks Jeff
Interesting reading
much appreciated
I thought that was the whole thing with the LFP batteries, being able to charge to 100. But apparently that's a myth. So what's the point of them? Slightly higher energy density, but also higher weight... I don't understand😑
A lot of people say here 100% LFP charging is fine including Tesla but I will be charging once a week st home to 100% and on road trips but supercharger I will go to about 80-90%
I think LFP batteries are also cheaper to produce and use less materials and easier to recycle
Take care
great video. however : you can't calculate the life of the car all the way to 0% of battery health. Long before you reach zero, the car will have no use. At some point the car will barely be good enough to get to the shopping centre and back.
That’s a very good point
Thanks
2:31 It's all about acdc it's best ac 12 amp 3 face 11kw/h....DC is no go.
Thanks
I Don't agree with your conclusion due to the simple reason that offically Tesla recommends to charge to 100 % even on a daily basis. If the case is that in a few years there will be Model 3's with significant reduced range on these cars, then Tesla will have a big problem.
I assume Tesla is recommending to charge to 100 % for a reason.
I charge my Model 3 LFP to 100 % 2-3 times a week.
lol it's not that bad that you need to charge it that often to 100%. Actually just don't think about it, and charge it to 100% once a week or bi-weekly. Don't worry. :)
I think it is wise to consider leasing a Tesla and the not worry about battery life at all, I do this paying $350 per month and will then get a new car with the latest technology when the lease expires.
That’s a great point you make I do of course, get the software updates regularly from Tesla so it feels like I’m getting the latest technology. Thanks for a great comment and leasing for money is a great option and I can understand why
That 100% LFP Charging fallacy from TESLA was because these batteries do not offer the same energy storage capacity/range as the ternary chemistries and as a marketing ploy to make customers buy these LFP vehicles, Mr Musk said you can safely charge to 100% with minimal degradation! Tesla is exploiting the fact that LFP can endure more charge-discharge cycles, but battery longevity is still based on how much, you top charge and much deep you discharge.
Thanks for commenting
Take care
Problem is, LFP degrades 3x slower. So i don't care anymore. I charge when i need to charge. And try to use 11kW chargers.
Thanks for commenting good idea
Adding to the conversation bcos I never hear any content provider talk about it.
It is not degradation as you think. Tesla is limiting the usable kW in battery packs. Again usable. The question is why? To protect the battery for longevity?
Like some said above... the bms is either not letting the top end charge or not letting you use the bottom end... even read it.
Think about it... everyone is losing right around the same percentage.
Great comment thanks
You're not wrong and not right either :) LFP batteries indeed do suffer from 100% charge, but they suffer just a little. The biggest concerns is maintaining the BMS (battery management system) to recognize its full state of charge and capacity from 0-100% (like you said). The "harm" you do by charging to 100% is very little compared to confusing the BMS system that may drop your recognized capacity by much more. Furthermore, LFP batteries are way more robust compared to NCA batteries and they last longer. Your tesla is likely going to die (other components than battery) prior to the actual battery dying. LFP batteries can be rebuild or recycled much more easily and at a lower cost than NCA batteries. So charging your LFP to 100% should not be of your concern, your car components will die sooner anyway. Furthermore, your initial drop of range comes from two factors: tesla recognizes your driving style and adjusts the range accordingly, and EVERY battery will loose some capacity at the beginning, LFP or NCA. By charging to 100% you let the BMS in your LFP battery to recognize the range, and more importantly, to equalize the full charge between the cells. If you observe your app while charging, the app may suddenly go to charging state even though you had 100% already. That's because the BMS recognized some uneven state of charge between the cells and lets more energy in to equalize that. That is WAY more important compared to the harm you do with 100% charge in LFP. Most EV batteries fail because only one or two battery modules die. The rest of the modules is just fine. Tesla won't replace a single module, they will replace the entire battery. Some shops in the US already specialized in replacing modules only, and they do get a lot of Model S with the problem where one or two modules are dead. Also, charging at home is much better for battery life compared to superchargers. When you charge at home, go to 100%, but when you charge at superchargers, go to 80-90%. The first benefit is to save money, the second is time (charging curve, the charging power drops a lot beyond 80% state of charge), and the third benefit is less harm to your battery by limiting supercharging. That's all I could say. Your video can be a little misleading and led others to harm their battery management system in a good faith. All the best!
Great comment thanks for so much information
Not likely that the degradation would continue at the same pace. However, if it would then you actually would not have practical 350k miles useable life, but you would already be at 70% useable at around 100k miles. And thereafter not very useable in practice.
Thanks for commenting
Charging it to 100% at Tesla Supercharger it does take a little longer.
Thanks for commenting
If Tesla says 100% then it's 100% for me. There will always be someone who thinks they're smarter than Tesla.
Thanks I now agree with you since making the video and have learned much more
This isn’t new to Tesla LFP run a lower voltage and are stable at 100%. Think of voltage like pressure. A full water balloon ready to pop is unstable. Now fill it up half way… you could throw it at the wall and it won’t pop. Voltage is like pressure and LFP runs a lower voltage.
Thanks great comment
I think your calculation is incorrect. Degradation is NOT linear. You might lose 3% in the first 20,000 and then lose 5% over the next 100,000. The car is also adjusting range based on your roads, climate etc. It’s in teslas best interest to simplify the charging process and make them last as long as possible. It’s highly possible that 100% displayed is not physically 100% SOC. Same goes for 0%.
If it WAS 100% SOC you would not be able to regen brake straight out of your driveway….
If it was 0% why do teslas continue to drive for 40miles!!!! The software is doing this for you! Have faith in the BMS!!!!
Not one individual on this earth has better data collection on the health and management of large battery packs then Tesla. I think your way over complicating things.
Having worked on batteries my whole life, I Personally I do what the manufacturer recommends, no blog article is going to have the motivation or knowledge above and beyond teslas own recommendations.
The SINGLE biggest questions people have about teslas is battery degradation and range. I suspect Tesla want the best for your car…. If 95% SOC prevented 80% of the degradation, wouldn’t they say charge to 95%… I suspect the software is doing that for you….
Thanks for the information
It would be useful for someone to come up with a reliable way to estimate range on the LFP battery when only charged to 80%.
Good point thanks
Still so much to learn about EVs, it's all great knowledge-gathering. I have never gone over 90% soc yet with my M3LR, but have ended up dropping to less than 10% only once, and that was no sweat as there's always a bit more in reserve. The LFP claims for safe 100% charging were, perhaps, too good to be entirely trueful, and I was not completely convinced it was the best way to manage them. 90% with LFPs, 75% with Li would seem sensible limits for every-day use, without compromising pottering-about range. Ends up with both being about equal really.
Thanks for your great comments very interesting
I learn something most days about my Tesla model 3
Take care
I love all of the comments saying people are going to stop following Tesla the expert in batteries and start charging to 80%. If Tesla says charge to 100% daily when possible and 100% weekly then you should do it. What happens when you try to put in a battery warranty claim and you haven’t followed what Tesla says they may deny your claim as you did not care for the battery correctly.
Thanks in my later videos I do say I’m following the Tesla recommendations and suggest that all Tesla drivers do the same, but it is up to them.
Take care
Thanks for commenting
Interesting
material scientist here. the battery will degrade in the first year the most. thats normal. there is nor problem charging the battery 100%
Thanks
every time i fill my gasoline powered car i get more miles i can go
Thanks for watching and commenting
Yes, it’s exactly the same with an electric car when you have charged
Take care
Yeah I used to used LFP batteries in my home built motorcycle about 7 years ago, used to need to charge fully to balance out the cells. Moved to better technology, was a massive improvement.
That’s interesting thanks
What technology do you use now that’s better
I use LG Chem pouch cells, same type used in the Chevy Volt. Impressive cells, never needs balancing, cells are 10 year old.@@nigep
Never go above 90% or below 20%. Try and slow charge and limit superchargers. If you put the supercharger location in the sat nav they heat up the batteries. Looks like they are hot and left fully charged too often.
Thanks for your comments
It is most likely because you supercharge all the time.
Thanks only about 50% supercharging
Problem is that you're putting video evidence of not following the manufacturer's recommendations. If your battery has an issue, it's possible you might not be lucky it happens for a few people and Tesla finds this video once you go get your under warranty battery replacement they might just tell you you've fucked up the BMS and that's on you :/
If your LFP battery is defective, 2.8 something % degradation in 7,7k miles is a little odd tbh.. it usually goes down yeah quite a bit but them stabilizes around 6-8% degradation after 100k-209k miles. So you're isn't starting good.. then you should continue using it as recommended by Tesla. I think we're getting a lot of proof that their cars are reliable even if yeah there are hiccups here and there.. and if your battery is defective get it replaced under warranty. You trying not to damange a potentially defective battery is like saying : "let's apply a small bandage on top of a severed artery" it'll slow down the issue but won't fix it :/
Go to 100% again so the BMS doesn't get dementia/Parkinson and see where it'll lead..
Thanks Geoffrey
Since making the video I have been charging to 100% at home once a week and I’ve made videos on the subject
For some reason, TH-cam seem to like promoting the video from a year ago
Thanks for watching & commenting
take care
www.autoevolution.com/news/the-puzzling-reason-why-tesla-misleadingly-recommends-charging-the-lfp-batteries-to-100-187075.html
Arent you suppose to charge 100% at least once a week
that means in between the week, you can charge to 80-90
Thanks
Yes I do now since making the video
I might only charge LFP to 100 % once a week, but according to this video LFP will outlast other battries and only degrade a few %. Watch from 23 min in. th-cam.com/video/FdZL8RF3thI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for commenting
Very interesting video
I think you are mislead and the truth is more nuance : LFP max cell voltage is 3.65 but Tesla does not go up to this, the car considers 3.60V to be 100%. LFP chemistry reacts differently : low and high voltges vary very fast and you are only between 0 and 2% or between 95 and 98% but voltae is very stable between 10 and 90% so reading voltage is not helping to give state of charge in the middle. you only know for sure when 0 or 100%. In the middle you only rely on counting power in and out to calculate state of charge, it is a model = not fact. LFP like to be overcharged to dissipate some heat (GOOD for LFP) and this gives natural top balancing. Most chemical components require 60°C to be happy. (while nmc degrades at 35°C) Also degradation happens around 4.15V which never happens in a LFP. I have some prismatic LFPs that are swollen or are breathing they are larger charged and slimmer discharged, but they work, they still deliver. We should accept this new car degradation : this is run in, degradation will stabilize with much more miles. This is my esperience with various chinese LFP I hope it does the same with LFP Tesla.
Thanks for watching and commenting with lots of very formative information
Take care and thanks
LFP last longest between 15% to 85%.
You can't balance them properly below 85% soc. Even if the balancers are super fine res, there's not much differential to work with below that 80-85% mark. If you insist on 85% then at least leave it at that soc overnight, because the balance current at the lower diff will also be lower and it'll take much longer to equalize it all. .
Thanks for your comments
Stop panicking. Just because you have lost over 2% it does not mean you are going to lose that every 7k miles!
Ok thanks for commenting
Your range shown on screen is just a estimate from your driving habit and other factors. Thus it changes over seasons , habits and road conditions you hit or even tire wear..
What matters is how much energy it can store and spit back out. It can be achieved by reaching 0 and charge up to 100 and monitor amount of electricity put in from wall charger. evem this is not fully correct because no one wants to fully discharge an EV risking so many things in it. But not surprisingly, few brave people already done this and you can find many infos on this already.
Clearly, Trying to calculate degradation from average estimated `mile` or % is already a wrong and misleading approach from a very start. There are many info and forums about this all over the internet. Also unbalanced battery is nothing better than degraded battery. LFP battery do need quite constant near 100 percent for balancing. Fully charged Li iron is still more stable than 60 ~70 percent charged li-ion. Simply put less stable means less life span. Also we have to take Tesla's unusable buffer zone as well. LFP will so easily withstand 20 percent degradation over 2000 full circle which is already more than what normal everyday driver can over 25 years of time.
Last but not least, calendar life..
No matter what you try it it will loose life depending on the temperature will be kept in. Even with battery management system, it still looses it. And it can be quite noticeable if you don't live in Alaska.
But of course it is not a good idea to charge it from lets say,, 85 to 100 every night. I would go somewhere 50 percent discharge and go fully charge for better charging efficiency.
Even for LFP charging it from. 90 to 100 every timeis a crazy thing. In that sense ,
Yes 👍 you are right Tesla should have given more specific guideline for LFP charging since EVERYDAY CHARGing amount can be quite different.
Thanks for commenting with lots of useful facts and information
HVB capacity loss is not linear with time or miles. The first 6 months to two years is faster and then the rate slows down. Don't worry about charging to 100% as often as you like.
Thanks for commenting
Good advice