Interesting how being conservative theologically was once a recipe for marginalization in America. Good video man. I've enjoyed your other stuff on Christianity, which people should check out...wink, wink
As a Norwegian/Namibian i found this interesting. In Norway we have church elections with different groups advocating for the church to take on different positions.
As a German Lutheran it was very interesting to see you explain how the same denomination developed on the other side of the pond. It is interesting to spot the small differences between Lutheranism in the US and in Germany. The "sola scriptura" thing isn't really present in Lutheran life/services etc. and it`s not actually as conservative as its US American branch seems to be (obviously there are always exceptions).
I think the perspective presented is more of a Missouri Synod perspective. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) is much more like the Lutheranism in the state churches of Europe. We interpret the confessions in much more loose manner.
@@Magnulus76 The ELCA is not really Lutheran. I was told in a comment by a ELCA member on another video that literal interpretation of Scripture is poison.
The ELCA is far more like the contemporary European Lutheran Church...🤔 they aren't literalists like most traditional Protestant churches are...ELCA is similar to the Episcopalian or UCC church...
@@markhorton3994It’s not poison, it’s just unnecessarily simple. And it’s most CERTAINLY a horrible litmus test for being a “real Lutheran.” There are also way more ELCA Lutherans than LCMS; the minority can’t define the denomination for the majority. 😂
My father is a Lutheran and my mother is a catholic, so i think it’d be really cool if you could do a side video on the relationship between all the different Christian denominations in the US
I am a recent LCMS convert, the history in book of Concordia and Luthertubers provide a respite and church community for Christians burnt out by Big Box Merican Evanjellysm and their works riteousness
My great x8 grandfather was Reverend Anthony Jacob Henckel. He came over and settled in Germantown, Pennsylvania. I am in Germany working and just visited his church in Eschelbronn where he was ordained.
Didn't hear much about the WELS here. My dad was a Missouri synod pastor/missionary, and ended up becoming a WELS pastor over the social issues, mainly abortion. This was in the late 80s/early 90s. One of the churches he was the pastor at had a school attached to it, which I attended. We did study what other religions/denominations believed. I can't remember the numbers on it, but a surprisingly large percentage of private christian primary schools are WELS. Great video!
I switched from LCMS to WELS in the late 80's also. I don't know what the LCMS is like today, but at the time it was a house divided. Half were really more in agreement with the ELCA.
Outside of Europe and North America, the largest numbers of Lutherans can be found in Indonesia, Namibia, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Brazil. Others can be found in China, Japan (Kumamoto and Tokyo area), South Korea, El Salvador, Argentina, and Australia. Largely some are the result of immigration (Brazil, Argentina, Australia), some the result of missionary work (China, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, El Salvador, Ethiopia) and some the result of colonization (Namibia, Tanzania). The largest amount of Lutherans in the world is probably in Asia (Indonesia) or Africa (Tanzania) or a close tie.
Evangelical Quaker here. This is a most fascinating video. I've always been a passionate student of church history, and it's interesting how American cultural shifts affect different denominations in similar ways. The Friends Church also divided along liberal/conservative lines around the same period Lutherans did. I've been binging your videos all day, and I am most impressed with their research quality and logical progression.
An excellent overview of Lutheranism in America. I would be interested in a series that went into more depth about how the various Lutheran denominations of today grew. I am an LCMS Lutheran, and my favorite little known factoid about the LCMS is just how close it came to falling apart before it began, largely because of Martin Stephan. I joke that the LCMS logo should incorporate a rowboat as a reminder of what happens to corrupt bishops.
The backing track is just discordant. History videos are better backed by ambient or mood music, or classical or medieval music at a pretty low volume.
I’m from St.Louis and used to cut through Concordia grounds, as a short cut to and from School. Years later, [ while in prison], I found a booklet with “CONCORDIA “ on it. I wrote, and they sent me some Bible study booklets, one on breaking additions. I came across a newspaper called “The Christian News”. I wrote to them. I found that they had given me a subscription [ free], to their newspaper. Fascinating history inside about the LCMS. I kept seeing quotes from Beck’s translation. I wrote back, and was willing to pay, but I was sent a Beck’s Bible free. Loved it . I used it for Devotionals. [ Before my release, I gave it to a young man who became a Christian in prison, and was just learning how to read. He loved it. [ 17+ years, and I still have gotten another Beck’s Bible. But I will very shortly. ✝️🙏🙂
this is a fantastic, well-edited video. I love the maps. you hit all the right points tying together theology and politics. the story at 13:00 is especially interesting, a little window into how America started to split up in the 1960s
Very enjoyable especially since I spend Fridays & Saturdays editing together my Lutheran church's Sunday service video. Thanks for a good "Why I Video" booster.
The whole thing: "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen." This is probably what kicked off the Enlightenment. It is certainly a precursor to Kant's "Throw off the guardians of your intellect".
I'm a Conservative Lutheran American. I'm a teenager, and I take my religion seriously. My ancestry is in fact from Germany. I don't know where exactly in Germany, but my family came over in the late 1800s during the early German Empire era. You deserve a like though. Also, my family favors Republican standards, I am one not to favor political parties as George Washington stated in his farewell address. Though, I do infact believe there are more good Republicans than bad Republicans. So, that's why I say I'm a Conservative Lutheran.
@@devinmillermedia Capitalist economy Nuclear family Christian friendly Secure borders Strong military America first When I talk about tradition. I mean this, traditional values America was founded upon. Nothing to do with race or gender. That, I think is extreme if you want to limit to one race and one gender to make the decision. America is for everyone who is citizens and we all deserve a say.
I really enjoyed this video! (Thank you Cypher!) As I commented on his video, I was raised (and remain) a Lutheran. I spent my first five years as a Weslyian (which descended from Calvanism), but after my mom remarried, we adopted my step dad's Lutheran beliefs (and boy howdy is there a difference between the two beliefs!). The school I attended was a parochial school run by my church, and it was K-12. We actually had catechism as a scheduled class. After my time in the Navy, I moved here to Eau Claire, WI to attend our college and seminary to become a teacher within our schools, though quickly realized that I didn't want to teach gradeschool or high school. My synod is actually a seperated branch of the Misouri Synod called the Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC for short). We tend to be very conservative, though apparently there have been talks with the Missouri Synod to re-establish fellowship. Fun stuff. Anyways, I actually have a friend whose great (great?) grandfather was a Norwegian immigrant and Union soldier in the Wisconsin regiment that wrote letters to his sweetheart and later wife during the campaign. She kept every letter and my friend recently translated them and published them in a book (whose title I unfortunately forget at the moment, but will endeavor to remember to put here at a later date when I find it again).
Very interesting! You did almost skip over the non-german Lutherans. One other point you might want to consider is Luther's teaching on the two kingdoms. I believe this teaching is another reason Lutherans have not been as involved in politics.
We as Ltherans do hold to the teaching of the two Kingdoms. They each have their own role. The Church is to teach the Gospel, and the state to protect its citizens. They can exist (and should) seperately.
I hope to one day have bookshelves like yours. Thanks for the amazing video. I didn’t know CFW Walther was a Confederate Sympathizer, it makes so much sense though.
Hi! My maternal grandfather was a Lutheran minister, serving churches in farm towns in rural Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois. Grandpa grew up in an area of Minneapolis where Norwegian was commonly spoken, even though great grandpa learned English after immigrating from Norway. Grandma grew up on a farm in southeast North Dakota. Her older sister was confirmed in Norwegian but they switched to English. Norwegians and Germans weren't fully integrated, that my great aunt married into a German family was worth talking about at that time in that place. I'm most familiar with Iowa, Nebraska, and Minnesota where Lutheran churches, both ELCA and Missouri Synod, are common. I've also lived in Utah which is strongly Latter Day Saints, and Houston which has few Lutherans. I have no experience with Wisconsin Synod but I hear they are even more strict and conservative than LCMS.
You have created a sound description of the origin and history of Lutherans and their idea that Sola Scriptura is their guiding first principle. Thank you!
On the coasts, the churches are a little sparser. You have people from a fairly large number of zip codes coming together in each church, traveling an hour to get to church on a Sunday morning.
I can not thank you enough for this video because you provided answers to questions I've had for decades - EVEN though I am LCMS! My Mother's father and mother were second and third generation from West Prussia and what was then, The Kingdom of Hanover - which was Saxony. I had no problem with the Prussians because they came over and assimilated into the LCMS (NW Missouri) easily and stayed. But it was the ones from The Kingdom and another German State that joined with one of the first German immigrant churches in the city. This was where I found records but was very confused when I discovered that this congregation was a mixture of Lutheran and Reformed which in the 50s morphed into what is know the United Church of Christ. This was confusing even to my Grandmother who told me she didn't understand as she always knew she was a Lutheran. So I have been trying through internet research to understand this and discovered the roots (as you point out) went back to the German Unification of the Lutheran and Reformed at the time when my ancestors were leaving. I cannot tell you how this video as helped and I will keep it and will add it to my website for future generations. - hopefully to see after I'm gone.
I live in North Dakota and most people here are Lutherans. There is a lot of them in my town but there is a lot of Catholics here too. And I have a lot family that are Catholics and Lutherans. I really liked your video.
Love this video. I'm a devout Catholic myself, but had a Lutheran mother, and living in the Midwest, there were a lot of Lutherans, and I'd argue they did have more of an impact here than other parts of the United States, though it still pales in comparison even compared to Evangelicals, who've become more common here. My main question is, do you think that Lutherans might ever gain more political traction? I know that the Evangelical Lutheran Church is more centrist or liberal and the Missouri Synod is quite conservative, so might either gain influence in their respective political camps? One last thing, you have said that Catholics were a more reliable voter demographic in the past and even today they just barely favor democrats. However, this changes when you look at white Catholics who are now mostly Republican, and it also changes among more devout Catholics. Does this occur among Lutherans or does it depend on the denomination they belong in?
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod published a new edition of its hymnal in 1941. Among other changes, it took the hymn "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" and put it to a different tune than "Deutschland Uber Alles". The old tune made its reappearance in the 1982 edition of the hymnal, under the designation "Austria".
Hey there, I found your channel about three days ago, and I've got to say I really enjoy the content. I was very pleasantly surprised by a very unexpected reference to "Horus Ruins Christmas" in another video of yours, considering the audience for that channel is so limited. It's great to see another Lutheran TH-camr out here, especially another LCMS Lutheran! It sure is a small world. Keep up the good work! "Simul Iustus et Peccator."
If/when you are working on a video about the reformation, please tell me. I am willing to help you. Born Catholic in Belgium, I converted to Protestantism (Unified here, but mostly Calvinist), and recently moved to the Boston area
Do you have a Missouri Synod background? Your characterization of Lutheranism seems more in line with that. The earliest Lutheran synod in the US was in Pennsylvania, and it was actually started it the 18th century by Henry Muhlenberg, who was a pietist preacher. He also supported the revolutionary war effort, while at the same time defending the rights of German Americans. Pietists were unusual among Lutherans because they were much more interested in social reform, and they had alot of influence among Scandinavian Lutherans as well.
I have argued with people about whether creationism is a necessary or expected part of my denomination (it's neither). It boggles my mind that creationism is still so strong an influence in religion today. There are not holes in the evidence like there once were, where creationism and science could be imagined to coexist without contradiction. And there is no theological or moral significance to how the world was created. Does Jesus love you less if the Earth took millions of years to spawn humanity rather than seven literal days? Are sins less forgivable if evolution is real? I don't get the deep significance creationists give to their need to deny evolution.
@@BradyPostma I think that it's as much a resistance to materialism and the worship of science, than it is to anything else. There are some very loud voices claiming that Darwin somehow "disproved" God as the Creator (and hence the value of any Christian morality), which makes it a badge of stubborn pride to hang onto literalism.
@@BradyPostma As a Lutheran creationist, who doesn't really see it as all too important, I think the reason I might care some about it is that theistic evolutionism starts to try to make biblical stories metaphors in order to coincide with science/reason, however we know that everything we know about God is from God and not by our own reason, no matter what science and culture says. The plain reading of the text does not read as a metaphor so I do not believe it to be one
@@memesofconcord1 I don't think it's necessary to redefine stories to be metaphors rather than literal in order to believe in evolution. These stories were not written down by eyewitnesses. Think of the two different accounts of the seven days' creation in the first chapters of Genesis. Little contradictions in intrepretation and in order of events make it seem to be a compilation of different narratives from different spiritual witnesses. So why not understand them that way? Why not believe that these texts are records of what past believers believed and the debates between them? In that paradigm, they're not metaphors but _arguments._ Perspectives. Imperfect mortal glimpses of an infallible Divinity, the literal beliefs of some past mortal that you need not trust with that complete faith that ought to be reserved for the Lord alone. And if comparing these ancient perspectives to modern perspectives from reason yields new insights from the old texts, why not embrace that?
@@BradyPostma Making the Bible into simply what some random Jews believed is no better. I have no idea what you're rambling about TWO creation accounts, but either way if it is not the literal interpretation, then it is metaphorical/figurative, which isn't always bad, especially when they are clearly speaking metaphorically, but the creation account does not do that. The Scriptures are not arguments or perspectives. They are not mortal glimpses, they are utterances by the Holy Spirit with the human as the proxy.
I do NOT wish to be critical, because your video and info were very good; but being older with hearing problems, I found the constant music in the background was distracting, and at times detrimental to properly hearing you. Thanks for all of the research and info......very very informative!
What exactly is in the Deutero Canon that would effect one's views on Purgatory? Most Baptists are not proper Calvansits anymore, especially Independent Baptists.
Great video. The pronunciation of a couple of words didn't sound right to me. You might wish to check them out: e-CU-men-ism, Jacob Preuss is pronounced, a la German, PROYSS. The ELCA is and one of its predecessor bodies, the LCA, were the "...Lutheran Church IN America," not "... OF America." When you think about it, that distinction makes perfectly good sense. Keep up the good work.
Enjoyed this... One quibble: I didn't find the chosen music particularly conducive to following the narrative. (Ok, one more quibble: Ever since I was a kid, I've heard the word "ecumenism" pronounced with the stress accent on the second syllable, "-cu-", while "ecumenical" is pronounced with the accent on the third syllable, "-men-". There, no more quibbles.)
As far as it goes, this is a pretty decent look at the Lutheran church. The only problem I have is how you blew over the attacks it incurred during both WW1 & WW2. It didn’t become tabu... It was attacked and in many states made virtually illegal. States shut down Lutheran. Colleges and schools across this nation. Not to mention the assaults on beer and wine making. Compare what happened in Missouri to what happened to the Italian wineries in California.
Thank for your posts. I teach Ancient Antiochene (Lutheran) Christianity online and enjoy being able to share the true Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I literally have no idea why Im Lutheran. Im Serbian, so you'd think id be Orthodox, but I live in America and went to Catholic church when I was really young, but I also speak a good bit of German nd yeah Im Lutheran...
I am a descendent of Conrad waltman...in the 18th century Conrad moved his family from Germany to penselvana in time for the revolutionary war. In Philadelphia they called him that crazy old German...but they also called him the father of the revolution. Conrad was the descendent of gorg von frundsberg who crossed the alps in November of 1526 with the intent to hang the Pope with a golden rope, he was a great general and a Lutheran. His army went on to sack Rome in 1527.
I believe Lutherans are one of the denominations that uphold the first 4 Ecumenical Councils but not the last 3. I've always been curios about the logic of that decision. I get wanting to uphold them all, and I certainly get not caring about any of them which is my attitude. But what is the reasoning of the denominations that decided to say the Fifth council is the first one to be invalid?
The standard of doctrine for Lutherans is the Book of Concord. But it never quite defines what Ecumenical Councils it subscribes to. That said, it includes the Nicene Creed as repeated and expanded by the council of Constantinople. (1 and 2) And in the Formula of Concord it clear says that Ephesus was right in speaking of Mary as the Mother of God for Christological reasons. (3) And it includes the "Athanasian" Creed - which includes Chalcedeon's Christology. (4) For better or worse, the Western church has largely been a spectator for councils 5-7, even when they were happening - which is probably why the Pope at the time of Constantinople III gave an ill-informed theological opinion which was rejected. And Lutherans come from that heritage. That said, classical Lutheran Christology has been more dependent on Cyril of Alexandria than the Reformed - and sometimes Roman Catholic as well. So it is certainly possible or even probable that we would be sympathetic to Constantinople II that tried to bring out more of Cyril's Christology. But the details of those debates have not been followed and so received by Lutherans. That said, this Lutheran, when he reads about the 5th-7th councils does tend to agree that they were correctly decided, even though I have to admit that the debate is using philosophical language with which I do not completely understand. So we don't say the Fifth council is the first one to be invalid. It just has not been a particular touch-stone for determining our identity. Lateran IV, however, we say some negative things about...
@@Kuudere-Kun Every serious scholar I know says that the Apostles' Creed was not written by the Apostles, the commonly used Nicene creed is more from Constantinople than Nicea, and Athanasius did not write the Athanasian Creed. I do not claim any of these things. Rather, I claimed that the Christology confessed in the Athanasian Creed confesses the Christological conclusions of Chalcedon. In what way do you question this?
I enjoy & learn a lot from your videos, thank you. As an ex-Catholic who struggled/fought my way out of "Rome", Martin Luther is a hero to me, & I pray dementia is the reason for his anti-Semitic writings late in life. Can you tell me, how much, if any, influence did Wycliffe have on Luther? Please do a reformation video, I will support by shopping in the links. Again, thank you!
I'm surprised that you say that during the Revolutionary War, Lutherans tended to support the British. I know that Henry Mulhenberg was a Lutheran pastor during the war and served as a Colonel in the Continental Army. He also happened to be the first Speaker of the House under the Constitution. Also, another prominent Lutheran, John Anderson was the president of the Continental Congress. I am not aware of any prominent Lutherans who supported the British.
Where in the Bible does it teach “Solo Scriptura”? Didn’t Luther base his entire movement on an intellectual and spiritual paradox? This video was well done!
Depending on the denomination, Lutheran churches may refer to their clergyman as Pastors or Priests. Pastor is more common, but you'll sometimes see the title of Priest used in European Lutheran Denominations. As for confession, it's a practice that exists as an option in most Lutheran Denominations, but it's uncommon, similar to the use of rosaries. If it helps in your individual spiritual well being, a Lutheran Pastor will likely oblige, especially if that person is a member of the church.
As a Lutheran in the United States, and like you a member of a congregation of the LCMS, I have also pondered why we are so often marginal figures. By no means would I want to summarize the complex story in a seventeen minute video, which you have done. And I have to admit that there are many things good in your video. That said, there are things where I disagree. First of all, as I think Hermann Sasse pointed out once, for the Germanic people who dominated European religion, the Old-time religion would be the Norse Gods - or after that Arian Christianity - and not the Nicene faith that Lutheranism is. Yes, in many ways we are conservative - and in ways that can be perplexing to our neighbors. We need to explain what we mean by conservative before it can really be that useful of an explanation. I think that is doubly so for our Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. We are in so many ways a conservative, traditional body. But when you look at most of the Nineteenth Century conflicts that formed us, it was Missouri that was speaking out about finding something new in our historical confessions of faith that had been glossed over by Lutherans over the centuries. First of all, the rebirth of Orthodox thought after Pietism was weighed and found wanting - a perspective not welcomed by the Saxon state church that caused the leaders to come over. And then Walther’s discovery of how Congregations have the authority to call their own leaders - even without a central authority. And most visibly in the Predestination controversy where Walther saw that we should give the honor to Christ even in our whole life in Christ. Christ is not limited to act only in those who he sees will be receptive to the message. Instead, it is the message that does it - in ways that cannot be limited by our understanding of logic. In all of these things Walther’s Missouri is uncovering the truths often buried in our heritage. To look to the past like this is indeed conservative. But it is also a rejection of some other views of what it is to be conservative. You try to do that. But I disagree with your understanding of the Heart of Lutheranism. “If a church practice or doctrine cannot be backed up by Scripture then Martin Luther believes that it should not be practiced or taught.” I think you are missing a distinction that Luther and Lutheranism has tried to consistently make between doctrine - which must be scriptural - and practice - which, while it must reflect the doctrine given in the bible does vary from place to place and over time. And so unlike the Swiss Reformation which started with eating sausages in Lent, the Lutheran one started with Luther claiming that Jesus’ direction to “Repent” is not something that can be domesticated by the medieval penitential system, but rather that the whole life of believers should be repentance-It is a whole new life we are brought into! A current demonstration of this distinction is the current LCMS, whose constitution in Article III speaks of “Conserve and promote unity of the true faith” (3.1), but only to “strive for uniformity in church practice, but also to develop an appreciation of a variety of responsible practices and customs…” (3.7) With the Peasant revolts, I think a good place to see the consistency of this in Luther’s thought is to look at how Luther wanted the reformation changes in the “Invocavit” Sermons. “In short, I will preach it, teach it, write it, but I will constrain no one by force, for faith must come freely without compulsion. Take myself as an example. I opposed indulgences and all the papists, but never with force. I simply taught, preached, and wrote God’s Word; otherwise I did nothing. And while I slept [cf. Mark 4:26-29], or drank Wittenberg beer with my friends Philip and Amsdorf, the Word so greatly weakened the papacy that no prince or emperor ever inflicted such losses upon it. I did nothing; the Word did everything.” (Luther, M. (2012). Martin Luther’s Basic Theological Writings, Third Edition, pp. 293-294). In Luther’s eyes, the Peasant revolt was forcefully changing an economic system when the details of an economic system goes beyond what Scripture has given us. I have no problems with your summary of Lutheran views in the Revolutionary War. But with regards to the Civil War era, it goes against most of the studies I have seen which have shown that the more Pietistic and Americanized Lutherans tended to be Republicans, while the more Confessional Lutherans tended to be Democrats. The explanation that I heard that makes the most sense to me is that the early Republican party had some serious Nativist “Know-nothing” roots which made the recent immigrants who often spoke the language of the old country quite uncomfortable. That said, there were serious efforts made by Republican leaders to court the German and Scandinavian vote. With regards to Lutheran bodies taking a position on slavery, the “Frankean Synod” is probably a good exception that proves the rule. There acceptance into the General Synod in 1864 with a strong anti-slavery but weak confessional views was a major part of the largest member of the General Synod (Pennsylvania) leaving the body. With regards to the Lutheran Civil War of the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, I think we differ. You see it as clearly decided. I, on the other hand, lament that instead of taking the time to come to some formula of concord, condemning the excesses of both sides, it seems to have been fought using the weapons of political, structural power on one hand, and of modern Public Relations on the other. Having known men who fought on both sides of it, I have not yet heard either side really speak of the theology of their opponents in a way that would be recognizable to the other. And since we have not done this, the fight has not been clarified but rather has turned into something in the background.
Thanks for the comment. I have done more reading since I made this video, and were I making it today it would be closer to what you've said here than it is.
So what is that book you showed that you grew up using to help learn the bible ? s it like a catholic book? I'm southern Baptist we just did the KJVB nor even new king James lol .the father i ever new was a devout Lutheran.
The book is called "Luther's Small Catechism." Typically, Lutheran churches will hold a two year long class, starting in 7th grade, where they teach Scripture and doctrine, and Luther's Small Catechism is the explainer.
Philemon. Its towards the back and is about a page and a half. It was a letter (an epistle, if you will) from Paul to a friend of his whose slave had escaped and run to Paul. Paul admonished the slave and sent him back to Philemon with the letter. Gist of it is "I'm sending this guy back to you, but don't be angry at him. He's a fellow Christian and human. Treat him as such." Like Grant said, its been used by both sides of the slavery debate, but its neither explicitly pro- nor anti-slavery. As a side note, Roman slavery wasn't quite the same as modern slavery. Slaves in Rome, granted, had no freedom, but were generally treated more as unpaid servants than animals as is oft portrayed as how slaves in post-Roman civilizations were treated.
@@BubbaJ18 I noticed it too. But don't feel too bad. Really the only reason I knew exactly what he was talking about is that there was a decent portion of one of my college classes years ago dedicated to Philemon and the controversy over it. That, and I'm a massive nerd.
I came here to learn about Lutherans in America, but after five minutes of your background music it seemed more advisable to drop some acid I had left over from the 70's and trip on how you say "Missouri Synod", dude...
Came here from the Cynical Historian; thx for the dialog! (Edit: oof! the music is too loud... it's really ok to not include a soundtrack LOL) We are men of philosophy; musical fillers do not become us. :-)
So, this is a good video, but it does have one really questionable claim. While I'm not an expert on Christian theology, I'm pretty sure the Church of England was never Calvinist. Every since it's founding the church has gone through changes to its theological doctrines. Under Henry 8th it was heavily catholic in its leanings, while it became Lutheran influenced under the regency for his son. Under Elizabeth the church became something entirely different, embodying a Lutheran-catholic hybrid, creating doctrine and practices that would appeal to Protestant and Catholic practitioner. I guess if you stretch you could argue that it became Calvinist after the overthrow of the monarchy from the civil war, but even then the church was reluctant to embrace radical beliefs and supported the return of the monarchy after groups like the levellers proved dangerous to the religious establishment. Reguardless, throughout the churches history it has never embraced the principles of TULIP which embody Calvinist thinking. You might have been referring to the Church of Scotland, which certainly embodied Calvinist principles and beliefs, but saying the Church of England is calvinist is like saying Saudi Arabia is Shiite.
The Church of England was a moderate Reformed church for much of its history, and more closely aligned with Calvinism. But not as extreme as the Presbyterians.
Luther was not the first reformer. There was John Huss a century before him, there was Wycliff a century before Huss. There was Savonarola in Italy There were the Anabaptist, the Orthodox churches, the Waldenses and many, many others. The reason why the Protestant movement took off when it did was not just because of Luther, it was because of Johannes Gutenberg and the printing press. The Catholic Church tried to prevent people from reading bibles and they even put them on an index of forbidden books. There were few bibles and they could take years to make just one copy. But once the printing press was invented, people could read and study the bible for themselves. Luther translated the bible into German and English language bibles began to be printed and distributed. Once people read the bibles they could see the discrepancies of what the Roman Catholic Church taught and what the bible taught. As an ex-Catholic, I learned all about those hundreds of discrepancies and man made traditions that were taught instead of the word of God.
Interesting video as far as the history is concerned, but as an atheist I must correct you on one thing: Genesis is not "anti-slavery". While Exodus 20 states that god freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, Exodus 21 clearly states that while a Hebrew would be another Hebrew's slave only for six years, those who were foreigners were slaves for life. Even a Hebrew could be kept enslaved forever if that slave married a woman who was a permanent slave and the "freed" slave did not wish to leave his wife or children. I know many Christians try to split hairs by saying this slavery was not "harsh" slavery but merely a form of indentured servitude, but realistically there is NO difference. Try it sometime. Give your services to someone, preferably not a friend, for one week and be forced to do what that person says for that week and you will quickly bail out of the experience when you are worked to the bone. The bible is a reprehensible document not only in regard to slavery, but in regard to its support of a horrible god who deems genocide as legitimate (as when the Hebrews exterminated the Canaanites to take their land and left only the virgins to be taken as sex slaves). This behavior is considered a positive good while any decent human would condemn these actions as absolutely immoral. Needless to say, I don't much care which christian sect a person belongs to, nearly none of them are following anything like what an "all-loving, all-merciful" god would actually want. Lastly, I add the one thing I ask of all christians, or islamics, or any believer in god: Show me the slightest evidence for the existence of this being and I'll convert. As a scientist, I would expect that evidence to be demonstrable fact, just as demanded by science. Simply saying the "bible told me so" or the "Quran says..." is NOT evidence. It is assertion without fact. (Note: my disdain for all religion, much like Christopher Hitchens' disdain is that, to me, religion is poison. I give some allowance to Unitarians as they are the most liberal of all sects. Religion corrupts humans and teaches them to live immorally. It creates the falsity that faith leads to forgiveness thereby allowing immoral behavior. True morality came from our very evolution as humans: it comes from the fact that social animals normally work together for the good of all. Look at the perversion this country has become and see what religion has wrought in this nation with the greatest percentage of christians in the developed world. The sooner this nation becomes secular, the better, and that is becoming more of a reality every day. )
I presume you are referring to Luther's anti-Semitic writings? As for those, the usual explanation by Lutherans is that those were written toward the end of Luther's life when he was ill and ridden with chronic diseases that twisted his mind. Modern Lutherans condemn those particular writings. It should also be noted that those were not theological writings, so they hold no authority within the Church.
Most of what he wrote was anti-Judaism, not so much anti-Semitic. He condemned the practice of a religion which denied Christ, in much the same way as Islam, or any other Unitarian religion/heresy.
@@CasualHistorian Luther's so called "anti Semetic" writings were anything but. Luther had a major issue with Rabbinical Judaism, not the Jewish people, because the religion denies Christ. Luther felt righteous anger toward the religion that would lead the Jewish people away from their Savior. How Luther expressed his beliefs is characteristically Luther. People who want to understand him need to see him as an individual human being and hear what he is saying, rather than having issues with the way he says it.
so many people just want to rack up cheap quicky political hit-points. you'll find individuals uninterested in what Luther wrote and taught are particularly interested slandering him with this nonsense, the real irony is that actual antisemites coopted/twisted both Luther and Nietzsche as their guy, unwittingly in current year fashion, Blue-Checked Twitter mongers' progressivist driven rush to judgement shorthand, leaves them as dim witted as the Neo-Nutzies they claim to oppose.
John Calvin is the starting point for the Presbyterian, Reformed and Baptist faiths. It is NOT the starting point for the Anglican Communion or the Methodists. The Anglican faith was not influenced by Luther at all. Anglican attracted to Calvinism tended to resign from Anglican congregations, esp. after Charles 2 was given his throne.
Egypt in Military Leadership being Fire and its Mirror said: "When I eat Bruno I will be able to receive the grocery list to usurp my former demon Diego with me Angelica"
Unitarianism vs trinitarianism was the real rivalry that sprung from Protestant revisionism post printing press new world. JW is a remnant of that fight.
Well, I have to strongly disagree that Calvin's ideas were "embraced" by the Church of England, which remains very "Catholic" up to this day. Calvin's ideas found their way into any number of Christian sects around the world, but not mainstream churches such at the Anglican Church.
Interesting how being conservative theologically was once a recipe for marginalization in America. Good video man. I've enjoyed your other stuff on Christianity, which people should check out...wink, wink
It’s not interesting. Your definition of “conservative” isn’t consistent with time.
I'm finishing my confirmation in the my church which is Lutheran in a month. I would just like to say thank you for expanding my knowledge even more.
I liked the video, but the background music could be turned down a bit
Kinda wish he'd included some good old Lutheran hymns as background music. ;)
I've noticed that millennials tend to go way overboard with harsh or annoying backround music.
Hey, is that me on guitar?
It didn’t bother me until I read this comment now it’s driving me crazy😂
As a Norwegian/Namibian i found this interesting. In Norway we have church elections with different groups advocating for the church to take on different positions.
As a German Lutheran it was very interesting to see you explain how the same denomination developed on the other side of the pond. It is interesting to spot the small differences between Lutheranism in the US and in Germany. The "sola scriptura" thing isn't really present in Lutheran life/services etc. and it`s not actually as conservative as its US American branch seems to be (obviously there are always exceptions).
I think the perspective presented is more of a Missouri Synod perspective. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) is much more like the Lutheranism in the state churches of Europe. We interpret the confessions in much more loose manner.
@@Magnulus76 , I'm actually sorry to hear that.
@@Magnulus76 The ELCA is not really Lutheran. I was told in a comment by a ELCA member on another video that literal interpretation of Scripture is poison.
The ELCA is far more like the contemporary European Lutheran Church...🤔 they aren't literalists like most traditional Protestant churches are...ELCA is similar to the Episcopalian or UCC church...
@@markhorton3994It’s not poison, it’s just unnecessarily simple. And it’s most CERTAINLY a horrible litmus test for being a “real Lutheran.” There are also way more ELCA Lutherans than LCMS; the minority can’t define the denomination for the majority. 😂
My father is a Lutheran and my mother is a catholic, so i think it’d be really cool if you could do a side video on the relationship between all the different Christian denominations in the US
What are you?
I am a recent LCMS convert, the history in book of Concordia and Luthertubers provide a respite and church community for Christians burnt out by Big Box Merican Evanjellysm and their works riteousness
My great x8 grandfather was Reverend Anthony Jacob Henckel. He came over and settled in Germantown, Pennsylvania. I am in Germany working and just visited his church in Eschelbronn where he was ordained.
Praise the Lord🙏🙏🙏 my name is pastor Anand from India🎉🎉🎉
God bless you 🙌🙌🙌
Didn't hear much about the WELS here. My dad was a Missouri synod pastor/missionary, and ended up becoming a WELS pastor over the social issues, mainly abortion. This was in the late 80s/early 90s.
One of the churches he was the pastor at had a school attached to it, which I attended. We did study what other religions/denominations believed. I can't remember the numbers on it, but a surprisingly large percentage of private christian primary schools are WELS.
Great video!
I switched from LCMS to WELS in the late 80's also. I don't know what the LCMS is like today, but at the time it was a house divided. Half were really more in agreement with the ELCA.
Outside of Europe and North America, the largest numbers of Lutherans can be found in Indonesia, Namibia, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Brazil. Others can be found in China, Japan (Kumamoto and Tokyo area), South Korea, El Salvador, Argentina, and Australia. Largely some are the result of immigration (Brazil, Argentina, Australia), some the result of missionary work (China, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, El Salvador, Ethiopia) and some the result of colonization (Namibia, Tanzania). The largest amount of Lutherans in the world is probably in Asia (Indonesia) or Africa (Tanzania) or a close tie.
Evangelical Quaker here. This is a most fascinating video. I've always been a passionate student of church history, and it's interesting how American cultural shifts affect different denominations in similar ways. The Friends Church also divided along liberal/conservative lines around the same period Lutherans did.
I've been binging your videos all day, and I am most impressed with their research quality and logical progression.
An excellent overview of Lutheranism in America. I would be interested in a series that went into more depth about how the various Lutheran denominations of today grew.
I am an LCMS Lutheran, and my favorite little known factoid about the LCMS is just how close it came to falling apart before it began, largely because of Martin Stephan. I joke that the LCMS logo should incorporate a rowboat as a reminder of what happens to corrupt bishops.
good video but the music is too laud.
loved the video----but Grant....cut the tacky music!
The backing track is just discordant. History videos are better backed by ambient or mood music, or classical or medieval music at a pretty low volume.
I’m from St.Louis and used to cut through Concordia grounds, as a short cut to and from School.
Years later, [ while in prison], I found a booklet with “CONCORDIA “ on it. I wrote, and they sent me some Bible study booklets, one on breaking additions.
I came across a newspaper called “The Christian News”. I wrote to them. I found that they had given me a subscription [ free], to their newspaper. Fascinating history inside about the LCMS.
I kept seeing quotes from Beck’s translation.
I wrote back, and was willing to pay, but I was sent a Beck’s Bible free. Loved it . I used it for Devotionals. [ Before my release, I gave it to a young man who became a Christian in prison, and was just learning how to read. He loved it.
[ 17+ years, and I still have gotten another Beck’s Bible. But I will very shortly.
✝️🙏🙂
Could you do a similar video on Catholicism in America?
this is a fantastic, well-edited video. I love the maps. you hit all the right points tying together theology and politics. the story at 13:00 is especially interesting, a little window into how America started to split up in the 1960s
Very enjoyable especially since I spend Fridays & Saturdays editing together my Lutheran church's Sunday service video. Thanks for a good "Why I Video" booster.
I became lcms after looking into what the Bible said in contrast to what I believed and am now in the lcms tradition.
I grew up in a community that was Scandinavian Lutheran, but was raised as a Unitarian. So both of these videos were quite interesting to me.
"Here I stand, I can do no other"
One of the all time great quotes
This was really interesting. I grew up in the LCMS and knew about ELCA, but they never taught us any of this history.
As an ex-Catholic and a Baptist I couldn't agree more. Luther is a hero to all bible-believing Christians.
The whole thing:
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen."
This is probably what kicked off the Enlightenment. It is certainly a precursor to Kant's "Throw off the guardians of your intellect".
Actually, your interpretation of that quote is wrong - poorly taught to you.
Where in the Bible does it teach “Solo Scriptura”? Didn’t Luther base his entire movement on an intellectual and spiritual paradox?
Please we need more Lutherans in Minnesota and the Dakotas
I’m a Lutheran from Minnesota.
Good content but is heard to watch because of how distracting the music is! It's too loud and not complementary!
Thank you for the history of the Missouri synod. It left out ELCA ( mostly) ALC , Wisconsin, and the new breakaway groups NALC, LCMC.
As a Lutheran thanks for giving our church here in the US some history .
I'm a Conservative Lutheran American. I'm a teenager, and I take my religion seriously. My ancestry is in fact from Germany. I don't know where exactly in Germany, but my family came over in the late 1800s during the early German Empire era. You deserve a like though. Also, my family favors Republican standards, I am one not to favor political parties as George Washington stated in his farewell address. Though, I do infact believe there are more good Republicans than bad Republicans. So, that's why I say I'm a Conservative Lutheran.
@@devinmillermedia Capitalist economy
Nuclear family
Christian friendly
Secure borders
Strong military
America first
When I talk about tradition. I mean this, traditional values America was founded upon. Nothing to do with race or gender. That, I think is extreme if you want to limit to one race and one gender to make the decision. America is for everyone who is citizens and we all deserve a say.
based
thanks for increasing my knowledge
I really enjoyed this video! (Thank you Cypher!)
As I commented on his video, I was raised (and remain) a Lutheran. I spent my first five years as a Weslyian (which descended from Calvanism), but after my mom remarried, we adopted my step dad's Lutheran beliefs (and boy howdy is there a difference between the two beliefs!).
The school I attended was a parochial school run by my church, and it was K-12. We actually had catechism as a scheduled class. After my time in the Navy, I moved here to Eau Claire, WI to attend our college and seminary to become a teacher within our schools, though quickly realized that I didn't want to teach gradeschool or high school.
My synod is actually a seperated branch of the Misouri Synod called the Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC for short). We tend to be very conservative, though apparently there have been talks with the Missouri Synod to re-establish fellowship. Fun stuff.
Anyways, I actually have a friend whose great (great?) grandfather was a Norwegian immigrant and Union soldier in the Wisconsin regiment that wrote letters to his sweetheart and later wife during the campaign. She kept every letter and my friend recently translated them and published them in a book (whose title I unfortunately forget at the moment, but will endeavor to remember to put here at a later date when I find it again).
WELS?
I had to stop the video half way through. The music was stopping me from picking up the information.
Wow...sheesh. I had to watch this more than once. And go through your sources. Ty for doing this.
Very interesting! You did almost skip over the non-german Lutherans. One other point you might want to consider is Luther's teaching on the two kingdoms. I believe this teaching is another reason Lutherans have not been as involved in politics.
We as Ltherans do hold to the teaching of the two Kingdoms. They each have their own role. The Church is to teach the Gospel, and the state to protect its citizens. They can exist (and should) seperately.
As a new lutheran convert this was really interesting thank you
Thank you for an engaging history lesson from a fellow Lutheran!
I hope to one day have bookshelves like yours. Thanks for the amazing video. I didn’t know CFW Walther was a Confederate Sympathizer, it makes so much sense though.
2:04 - The movie "Luther"! I adore that movie!
Hi! My maternal grandfather was a Lutheran minister, serving churches in farm towns in rural Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois. Grandpa grew up in an area of Minneapolis where Norwegian was commonly spoken, even though great grandpa learned English after immigrating from Norway. Grandma grew up on a farm in southeast North Dakota. Her older sister was confirmed in Norwegian but they switched to English. Norwegians and Germans weren't fully integrated, that my great aunt married into a German family was worth talking about at that time in that place.
I'm most familiar with Iowa, Nebraska, and Minnesota where Lutheran churches, both ELCA and Missouri Synod, are common. I've also lived in Utah which is strongly Latter Day Saints, and Houston which has few Lutherans.
I have no experience with Wisconsin Synod but I hear they are even more strict and conservative than LCMS.
You have created a sound description of the origin and history of Lutherans and their idea that Sola Scriptura is their guiding first principle. Thank you!
LCMS? We’re all over the Midwest!
Riley Strack yep. I got to know a great number of wonderful Lutheran people when living in Nebraska.
@@davidgdraper6269 how about here in Indiana 😊
On the coasts, the churches are a little sparser. You have people from a fairly large number of zip codes coming together in each church, traveling an hour to get to church on a Sunday morning.
“The Lutheran civil war” loool
Great video as always, sincerely from another brother in Christ
Slavery in the Bible is not what we know as slavery. It was indentured servitude much more like military service than African American slavery.
I can not thank you enough for this video because you provided answers to questions I've had for decades - EVEN though I am LCMS! My Mother's father and mother were second and third generation from West Prussia and what was then, The Kingdom of Hanover - which was Saxony. I had no problem with the Prussians because they came over and assimilated into the LCMS (NW Missouri) easily and stayed. But it was the ones from The Kingdom and another German State that joined with one of the first German immigrant churches in the city. This was where I found records but was very confused when I discovered that this congregation was a mixture of Lutheran and Reformed which in the 50s morphed into what is know the United Church of Christ. This was confusing even to my Grandmother who told me she didn't understand as she always knew she was a Lutheran. So I have been trying through internet research to understand this and discovered the roots (as you point out) went back to the German Unification of the Lutheran and Reformed at the time when my ancestors were leaving. I cannot tell you how this video as helped and I will keep it and will add it to my website for future generations. - hopefully to see after I'm gone.
I live in North Dakota and most people here are Lutherans. There is a lot of them in my town but there is a lot of Catholics here too. And I have a lot family that are Catholics and Lutherans. I really liked your video.
Love this video. I'm a devout Catholic myself, but had a Lutheran mother, and living in the Midwest, there were a lot of Lutherans, and I'd argue they did have more of an impact here than other parts of the United States, though it still pales in comparison even compared to Evangelicals, who've become more common here.
My main question is, do you think that Lutherans might ever gain more political traction? I know that the Evangelical Lutheran Church is more centrist or liberal and the Missouri Synod is quite conservative, so might either gain influence in their respective political camps?
One last thing, you have said that Catholics were a more reliable voter demographic in the past and even today they just barely favor democrats. However, this changes when you look at white Catholics who are now mostly Republican, and it also changes among more devout Catholics. Does this occur among Lutherans or does it depend on the denomination they belong in?
As someone raised in an ELCA church, thank you.
Great video! The Cynical Historian sent me here. Subscribed.
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod published a new edition of its hymnal in 1941. Among other changes, it took the hymn "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" and put it to a different tune than "Deutschland Uber Alles".
The old tune made its reappearance in the 1982 edition of the hymnal, under the designation "Austria".
Hey there,
I found your channel about three days ago, and I've got to say I really enjoy the content. I was very pleasantly surprised by a very unexpected reference to "Horus Ruins Christmas" in another video of yours, considering the audience for that channel is so limited. It's great to see another Lutheran TH-camr out here, especially another LCMS Lutheran! It sure is a small world. Keep up the good work!
"Simul Iustus et Peccator."
If/when you are working on a video about the reformation, please tell me. I am willing to help you.
Born Catholic in Belgium, I converted to Protestantism (Unified here, but mostly Calvinist), and recently moved to the Boston area
Thank you for this! Much better than my attempt at self-educating through google.
Google will not give you anything like an accurate picture of Christianity.
Fantastic Video! Thanks for linking your resources.
Do you have a Missouri Synod background? Your characterization of Lutheranism seems more in line with that.
The earliest Lutheran synod in the US was in Pennsylvania, and it was actually started it the 18th century by Henry Muhlenberg, who was a pietist preacher. He also supported the revolutionary war effort, while at the same time defending the rights of German Americans. Pietists were unusual among Lutherans because they were much more interested in social reform, and they had alot of influence among Scandinavian Lutherans as well.
Henry Muhlenberg was apparently a loyalist. His son, however, volunteered for Washington's army.
I have that same book! My church tried to tell me that we needed to be creationist to get into heaven tho so I slipped away into something less strict
I have argued with people about whether creationism is a necessary or expected part of my denomination (it's neither). It boggles my mind that creationism is still so strong an influence in religion today. There are not holes in the evidence like there once were, where creationism and science could be imagined to coexist without contradiction. And there is no theological or moral significance to how the world was created. Does Jesus love you less if the Earth took millions of years to spawn humanity rather than seven literal days? Are sins less forgivable if evolution is real? I don't get the deep significance creationists give to their need to deny evolution.
@@BradyPostma I think that it's as much a resistance to materialism and the worship of science, than it is to anything else. There are some very loud voices claiming that Darwin somehow "disproved" God as the Creator (and hence the value of any Christian morality), which makes it a badge of stubborn pride to hang onto literalism.
@@BradyPostma As a Lutheran creationist, who doesn't really see it as all too important, I think the reason I might care some about it is that theistic evolutionism starts to try to make biblical stories metaphors in order to coincide with science/reason, however we know that everything we know about God is from God and not by our own reason, no matter what science and culture says. The plain reading of the text does not read as a metaphor so I do not believe it to be one
@@memesofconcord1 I don't think it's necessary to redefine stories to be metaphors rather than literal in order to believe in evolution.
These stories were not written down by eyewitnesses. Think of the two different accounts of the seven days' creation in the first chapters of Genesis. Little contradictions in intrepretation and in order of events make it seem to be a compilation of different narratives from different spiritual witnesses. So why not understand them that way? Why not believe that these texts are records of what past believers believed and the debates between them? In that paradigm, they're not metaphors but _arguments._ Perspectives. Imperfect mortal glimpses of an infallible Divinity, the literal beliefs of some past mortal that you need not trust with that complete faith that ought to be reserved for the Lord alone.
And if comparing these ancient perspectives to modern perspectives from reason yields new insights from the old texts, why not embrace that?
@@BradyPostma Making the Bible into simply what some random Jews believed is no better. I have no idea what you're rambling about TWO creation accounts, but either way if it is not the literal interpretation, then it is metaphorical/figurative, which isn't always bad, especially when they are clearly speaking metaphorically, but the creation account does not do that. The Scriptures are not arguments or perspectives. They are not mortal glimpses, they are utterances by the Holy Spirit with the human as the proxy.
I do NOT wish to be critical, because your video and info were very good; but being older with hearing problems, I found the constant music in the background was distracting, and at times detrimental to properly hearing you.
Thanks for all of the research and info......very very informative!
What exactly is in the Deutero Canon that would effect one's views on Purgatory?
Most Baptists are not proper Calvansits anymore, especially Independent Baptists.
Yep! They may have been but not many any more.
Great video.
The pronunciation of a couple of words didn't sound right to me. You might wish to check them out: e-CU-men-ism, Jacob Preuss is pronounced, a la German, PROYSS. The ELCA is and one of its predecessor bodies, the LCA, were the "...Lutheran Church IN America," not "... OF America." When you think about it, that distinction makes perfectly good sense.
Keep up the good work.
Enjoyed this... One quibble: I didn't find the chosen music particularly conducive to following the narrative. (Ok, one more quibble: Ever since I was a kid, I've heard the word "ecumenism" pronounced with the stress accent on the second syllable, "-cu-", while "ecumenical" is pronounced with the accent on the third syllable, "-men-". There, no more quibbles.)
As far as it goes, this is a pretty decent look at the Lutheran church. The only problem I have is how you blew over the attacks it incurred during both WW1 & WW2. It didn’t become tabu... It was attacked and in many states made virtually illegal. States shut down Lutheran. Colleges and schools across this nation. Not to mention the assaults on beer and wine making. Compare what happened in Missouri to what happened to the Italian wineries in California.
Thank for your posts. I teach Ancient Antiochene (Lutheran) Christianity online and enjoy being able to share the true Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The music is too loud and detracts from the text.
I literally have no idea why Im Lutheran. Im Serbian, so you'd think id be Orthodox, but I live in America and went to Catholic church when I was really young, but I also speak a good bit of German nd yeah Im Lutheran...
Very interesting video earned a sub
I had a small/ thin book of khatechism when I was in college, a simple manual, very strong influence in the development of my faith
You piqued my interest talking about the Concordia militiamen, do you know where I can learn more about them?
I am a descendent of Conrad waltman...in the 18th century Conrad moved his family from Germany to penselvana in time for the revolutionary war. In Philadelphia they called him that crazy old German...but they also called him the father of the revolution. Conrad was the descendent of gorg von frundsberg who crossed the alps in November of 1526 with the intent to hang the Pope with a golden rope, he was a great general and a Lutheran. His army went on to sack Rome in 1527.
I believe Lutherans are one of the denominations that uphold the first 4 Ecumenical Councils but not the last 3. I've always been curios about the logic of that decision.
I get wanting to uphold them all, and I certainly get not caring about any of them which is my attitude. But what is the reasoning of the denominations that decided to say the Fifth council is the first one to be invalid?
The standard of doctrine for Lutherans is the Book of Concord. But it never quite defines what Ecumenical Councils it subscribes to. That said, it includes the Nicene Creed as repeated and expanded by the council of Constantinople. (1 and 2) And in the Formula of Concord it clear says that Ephesus was right in speaking of Mary as the Mother of God for Christological reasons. (3) And it includes the "Athanasian" Creed - which includes Chalcedeon's Christology. (4)
For better or worse, the Western church has largely been a spectator for councils 5-7, even when they were happening - which is probably why the Pope at the time of Constantinople III gave an ill-informed theological opinion which was rejected. And Lutherans come from that heritage.
That said, classical Lutheran Christology has been more dependent on Cyril of Alexandria than the Reformed - and sometimes Roman Catholic as well. So it is certainly possible or even probable that we would be sympathetic to Constantinople II that tried to bring out more of Cyril's Christology. But the details of those debates have not been followed and so received by Lutherans. That said, this Lutheran, when he reads about the 5th-7th councils does tend to agree that they were correctly decided, even though I have to admit that the debate is using philosophical language with which I do not completely understand.
So we don't say the Fifth council is the first one to be invalid. It just has not been a particular touch-stone for determining our identity. Lateran IV, however, we say some negative things about...
@@kenmcguire5837 The Athanasian Creed is the worst, it's Pseupigraphal, no one actually thinks Athanasis wrote it. Where it came from is a mystery.
@@Kuudere-Kun Every serious scholar I know says that the Apostles' Creed was not written by the Apostles, the commonly used Nicene creed is more from Constantinople than Nicea, and Athanasius did not write the Athanasian Creed. I do not claim any of these things. Rather, I claimed that the Christology confessed in the Athanasian Creed confesses the Christological conclusions of Chalcedon. In what way do you question this?
@@kenmcguire5837 I'm not denying the accuracy of anything you said, I just felt the need to express my disapproval of that particular Creed.
What is the song in the start of the video?
This would be a lot easier to follow without the distracting musical track.
I enjoy & learn a lot from your videos, thank you. As an ex-Catholic who struggled/fought my way out of "Rome", Martin Luther is a hero to me, & I pray dementia is the reason for his anti-Semitic writings late in life. Can you tell me, how much, if any, influence did Wycliffe have on Luther? Please do a reformation video, I will support by shopping in the links. Again, thank you!
Great content. Strongly consider ditching the background music.
I'm surprised that you say that during the Revolutionary War, Lutherans tended to support the British. I know that Henry Mulhenberg was a Lutheran pastor during the war and served as a Colonel in the Continental Army. He also happened to be the first Speaker of the House under the Constitution. Also, another prominent Lutheran, John Anderson was the president of the Continental Congress. I am not aware of any prominent Lutherans who supported the British.
Where in the Bible does it teach “Solo Scriptura”? Didn’t Luther base his entire movement on an intellectual and spiritual paradox?
This video was well done!
Thank you. I'm LCMS, just saying. God's peace
I am glad I found your channel when I was over Cynical Historian sight. I like his channel also.
Do you do confusion priest or is a pastor preacher?
Depending on the denomination, Lutheran churches may refer to their clergyman as Pastors or Priests. Pastor is more common, but you'll sometimes see the title of Priest used in European Lutheran Denominations.
As for confession, it's a practice that exists as an option in most Lutheran Denominations, but it's uncommon, similar to the use of rosaries. If it helps in your individual spiritual well being, a Lutheran Pastor will likely oblige, especially if that person is a member of the church.
Well done, thanks.
Did Joseph Luther write any books?
As a Lutheran in the United States, and like you a member of a congregation of the LCMS, I have also pondered why we are so often marginal figures. By no means would I want to summarize the complex story in a seventeen minute video, which you have done. And I have to admit that there are many things good in your video.
That said, there are things where I disagree. First of all, as I think Hermann Sasse pointed out once, for the Germanic people who dominated European religion, the Old-time religion would be the Norse Gods - or after that Arian Christianity - and not the Nicene faith that Lutheranism is. Yes, in many ways we are conservative - and in ways that can be perplexing to our neighbors. We need to explain what we mean by conservative before it can really be that useful of an explanation.
I think that is doubly so for our Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. We are in so many ways a conservative, traditional body. But when you look at most of the Nineteenth Century conflicts that formed us, it was Missouri that was speaking out about finding something new in our historical confessions of faith that had been glossed over by Lutherans over the centuries. First of all, the rebirth of Orthodox thought after Pietism was weighed and found wanting - a perspective not welcomed by the Saxon state church that caused the leaders to come over. And then Walther’s discovery of how Congregations have the authority to call their own leaders - even without a central authority. And most visibly in the Predestination controversy where Walther saw that we should give the honor to Christ even in our whole life in Christ. Christ is not limited to act only in those who he sees will be receptive to the message. Instead, it is the message that does it - in ways that cannot be limited by our understanding of logic. In all of these things Walther’s Missouri is uncovering the truths often buried in our heritage. To look to the past like this is indeed conservative. But it is also a rejection of some other views of what it is to be conservative.
You try to do that. But I disagree with your understanding of the Heart of Lutheranism. “If a church practice or doctrine cannot be backed up by Scripture then Martin Luther believes that it should not be practiced or taught.” I think you are missing a distinction that Luther and Lutheranism has tried to consistently make between doctrine - which must be scriptural - and practice - which, while it must reflect the doctrine given in the bible does vary from place to place and over time. And so unlike the Swiss Reformation which started with eating sausages in Lent, the Lutheran one started with Luther claiming that Jesus’ direction to “Repent” is not something that can be domesticated by the medieval penitential system, but rather that the whole life of believers should be repentance-It is a whole new life we are brought into! A current demonstration of this distinction is the current LCMS, whose constitution in Article III speaks of “Conserve and promote unity of the true faith” (3.1), but only to “strive for uniformity in church practice, but also to develop an appreciation of a variety of responsible practices and customs…” (3.7)
With the Peasant revolts, I think a good place to see the consistency of this in Luther’s thought is to look at how Luther wanted the reformation changes in the “Invocavit” Sermons. “In short, I will preach it, teach it, write it, but I will constrain no one by force, for faith must come freely without compulsion. Take myself as an example. I opposed indulgences and all the papists, but never with force. I simply taught, preached, and wrote God’s Word; otherwise I did nothing. And while I slept [cf. Mark 4:26-29], or drank Wittenberg beer with my friends Philip and Amsdorf, the Word so greatly weakened the papacy that no prince or emperor ever inflicted such losses upon it. I did nothing; the Word did everything.” (Luther, M. (2012). Martin Luther’s Basic Theological Writings, Third Edition, pp. 293-294). In Luther’s eyes, the Peasant revolt was forcefully changing an economic system when the details of an economic system goes beyond what Scripture has given us.
I have no problems with your summary of Lutheran views in the Revolutionary War. But with regards to the Civil War era, it goes against most of the studies I have seen which have shown that the more Pietistic and Americanized Lutherans tended to be Republicans, while the more Confessional Lutherans tended to be Democrats. The explanation that I heard that makes the most sense to me is that the early Republican party had some serious Nativist “Know-nothing” roots which made the recent immigrants who often spoke the language of the old country quite uncomfortable. That said, there were serious efforts made by Republican leaders to court the German and Scandinavian vote.
With regards to Lutheran bodies taking a position on slavery, the “Frankean Synod” is probably a good exception that proves the rule. There acceptance into the General Synod in 1864 with a strong anti-slavery but weak confessional views was a major part of the largest member of the General Synod (Pennsylvania) leaving the body.
With regards to the Lutheran Civil War of the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, I think we differ. You see it as clearly decided. I, on the other hand, lament that instead of taking the time to come to some formula of concord, condemning the excesses of both sides, it seems to have been fought using the weapons of political, structural power on one hand, and of modern Public Relations on the other. Having known men who fought on both sides of it, I have not yet heard either side really speak of the theology of their opponents in a way that would be recognizable to the other. And since we have not done this, the fight has not been clarified but rather has turned into something in the background.
Thanks for the comment. I have done more reading since I made this video, and were I making it today it would be closer to what you've said here than it is.
You forgot to put that link in there
Where in the Bible does it teach “Solo Scriptura”? Didn’t Luther base his entire movement on an intellectual and spiritual paradox?
So what is that book you showed that you grew up using to help learn the bible ? s it like a catholic book? I'm southern Baptist we just did the KJVB nor even new king James lol .the father i ever new was a devout Lutheran.
The book is called "Luther's Small Catechism." Typically, Lutheran churches will hold a two year long class, starting in 7th grade, where they teach Scripture and doctrine, and Luther's Small Catechism is the explainer.
What was that book of the Bible you mentioned? Never heard of it before
Philemon. Its towards the back and is about a page and a half. It was a letter (an epistle, if you will) from Paul to a friend of his whose slave had escaped and run to Paul. Paul admonished the slave and sent him back to Philemon with the letter. Gist of it is "I'm sending this guy back to you, but don't be angry at him. He's a fellow Christian and human. Treat him as such."
Like Grant said, its been used by both sides of the slavery debate, but its neither explicitly pro- nor anti-slavery.
As a side note, Roman slavery wasn't quite the same as modern slavery. Slaves in Rome, granted, had no freedom, but were generally treated more as unpaid servants than animals as is oft portrayed as how slaves in post-Roman civilizations were treated.
@@isaacschmitt4803 he pronounced it differently, it threw me off...I feel dumb now
@@BubbaJ18 I noticed it too. But don't feel too bad. Really the only reason I knew exactly what he was talking about is that there was a decent portion of one of my college classes years ago dedicated to Philemon and the controversy over it. That, and I'm a massive nerd.
I came here to learn about Lutherans in America, but after five minutes of your background music it seemed more advisable to drop some acid I had left over from the 70's and trip on how you say "Missouri Synod", dude...
Re LCMS history, read Authority Vested by Mary Todd.
Good content. The soundtrack was annoying. I'd prefer slower pacing but, hey, you can't have it all!
Lutheran unites !
Came here from the Cynical Historian; thx for the dialog! (Edit: oof! the music is too loud... it's really ok to not include a soundtrack LOL) We are men of philosophy; musical fillers do not become us. :-)
My ancestors (the Martin's 😉) came from Saxony and settled in southern Illinois, close to Missouri
It's a good video, but the music is really irritating and inappropriate.
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So, this is a good video, but it does have one really questionable claim. While I'm not an expert on Christian theology, I'm pretty sure the Church of England was never Calvinist.
Every since it's founding the church has gone through changes to its theological doctrines. Under Henry 8th it was heavily catholic in its leanings, while it became Lutheran influenced under the regency for his son. Under Elizabeth the church became something entirely different, embodying a Lutheran-catholic hybrid, creating doctrine and practices that would appeal to Protestant and Catholic practitioner. I guess if you stretch you could argue that it became Calvinist after the overthrow of the monarchy from the civil war, but even then the church was reluctant to embrace radical beliefs and supported the return of the monarchy after groups like the levellers proved dangerous to the religious establishment.
Reguardless, throughout the churches history it has never embraced the principles of TULIP which embody Calvinist thinking. You might have been referring to the Church of Scotland, which certainly embodied Calvinist principles and beliefs, but saying the Church of England is calvinist is like saying Saudi Arabia is Shiite.
Toby Black England burned
more then 300 Lutherans at the stake .Don't think the Church of England is very Lutheran.
The Church of England was a moderate Reformed church for much of its history, and more closely aligned with Calvinism. But not as extreme as the Presbyterians.
Luther was not the first reformer. There was John Huss a century before him, there was Wycliff a century before Huss. There was Savonarola in Italy There were the Anabaptist, the Orthodox churches, the Waldenses and many, many others. The reason why the Protestant movement took off when it did was not just because of Luther, it was because of Johannes Gutenberg and the printing press. The Catholic Church tried to prevent people from reading bibles and they even put them on an index of forbidden books. There were few bibles and they could take years to make just one copy. But once the printing press was invented, people could read and study the bible for themselves. Luther translated the bible into German and English language bibles began to be printed and distributed. Once people read the bibles they could see the discrepancies of what the Roman Catholic Church taught and what the bible taught. As an ex-Catholic, I learned all about those hundreds of discrepancies and man made traditions that were taught instead of the word of God.
It's interesting to see the Catholic position evolve to "Prima"s rather than "Sola"s.
Interesting video as far as the history is concerned, but as an atheist I must correct you on one thing: Genesis is not "anti-slavery". While Exodus 20 states that god freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, Exodus 21 clearly states that while a Hebrew would be another Hebrew's slave only for six years, those who were foreigners were slaves for life. Even a Hebrew could be kept enslaved forever if that slave married a woman who was a permanent slave and the "freed" slave did not wish to leave his wife or children. I know many Christians try to split hairs by saying this slavery was not "harsh" slavery but merely a form of indentured servitude, but realistically there is NO difference. Try it sometime. Give your services to someone, preferably not a friend, for one week and be forced to do what that person says for that week and you will quickly bail out of the experience when you are worked to the bone. The bible is a reprehensible document not only in regard to slavery, but in regard to its support of a horrible god who deems genocide as legitimate (as when the Hebrews exterminated the Canaanites to take their land and left only the virgins to be taken as sex slaves). This behavior is considered a positive good while any decent human would condemn these actions as absolutely immoral. Needless to say, I don't much care which christian sect a person belongs to, nearly none of them are following anything like what an "all-loving, all-merciful" god would actually want.
Lastly, I add the one thing I ask of all christians, or islamics, or any believer in god: Show me the slightest evidence for the existence of this being and I'll convert. As a scientist, I would expect that evidence to be demonstrable fact, just as demanded by science. Simply saying the "bible told me so" or the "Quran says..." is NOT evidence. It is assertion without fact.
(Note: my disdain for all religion, much like Christopher Hitchens' disdain is that, to me, religion is poison. I give some allowance to Unitarians as they are the most liberal of all sects. Religion corrupts humans and teaches them to live immorally. It creates the falsity that faith leads to forgiveness thereby allowing immoral behavior. True morality came from our very evolution as humans: it comes from the fact that social animals normally work together for the good of all. Look at the perversion this country has become and see what religion has wrought in this nation with the greatest percentage of christians in the developed world. The sooner this nation becomes secular, the better, and that is becoming more of a reality every day. )
Why do you say Philemon so odd I’ve never heard it said that way
As a Jew, I can’t say I admire Luther. But this was a very interesting video.
I presume you are referring to Luther's anti-Semitic writings? As for those, the usual explanation by Lutherans is that those were written toward the end of Luther's life when he was ill and ridden with chronic diseases that twisted his mind.
Modern Lutherans condemn those particular writings. It should also be noted that those were not theological writings, so they hold no authority within the Church.
sorry!!!! Luther Wrote so many great books but i have know idea why those tracks were written.
Most of what he wrote was anti-Judaism, not so much anti-Semitic.
He condemned the practice of a religion which denied Christ, in much the same way as Islam, or any other Unitarian religion/heresy.
@@CasualHistorian Luther's so called "anti Semetic" writings were anything but. Luther had a major issue with Rabbinical Judaism, not the Jewish people, because the religion denies Christ. Luther felt righteous anger toward the religion that would lead the Jewish people away from their Savior. How Luther expressed his beliefs is characteristically Luther. People who want to understand him need to see him as an individual human being and hear what he is saying, rather than having issues with the way he says it.
so many people just want to rack up cheap quicky political hit-points.
you'll find individuals uninterested in what Luther wrote and taught are particularly interested slandering him with this nonsense, the real irony is that actual antisemites coopted/twisted both Luther and Nietzsche as their guy, unwittingly in current year fashion, Blue-Checked Twitter mongers' progressivist driven rush to judgement shorthand, leaves them as dim witted as the Neo-Nutzies they claim to oppose.
John Calvin is the starting point for the Presbyterian, Reformed and Baptist faiths. It is NOT the starting point for the Anglican Communion or the Methodists. The Anglican faith was not influenced by Luther at all. Anglican attracted to Calvinism tended to resign from Anglican congregations, esp. after Charles 2 was given his throne.
Decent enough video but as others have noted, please tone the back music down.
Egypt in Military Leadership being Fire and its Mirror said: "When I eat Bruno I will be able to receive the grocery list to usurp my former demon Diego with me Angelica"
Unitarianism vs trinitarianism was the real rivalry that sprung from Protestant revisionism post printing press new world. JW is a remnant of that fight.
Well, I have to strongly disagree that Calvin's ideas were "embraced" by the Church of England, which remains very "Catholic" up to this day. Calvin's ideas found their way into any number of Christian sects around the world, but not mainstream churches such at the Anglican Church.
Sorry, I had to give up on this interesting video because of the intrusive background music.