Thanks, I both have a 1.2kw water cooled that needs new bearings and have been looking at getting a 2.2kw spindle. It was nice to see the take apart and get an answer to the practical limits of the 2.2kw (starts to struggle with ~3/8" endmills for anyone watching in America)
You just gave the best information on spindles on all of TH-cam that I could find. I was wondering if you could make a video (with a jig) showing how to balance your spindle (or maybe you already have that some wehere) and maybe a video on how to replace a spindle bearing. Just some ideas that I know other DIY's might find extremely valuable.
5:00 - by looking at the way the bearing slide in into its bearing housing i'm not feel comfortable:/ Imagine the radial play at this end. I think it is worth to take the spindle apart, replace the bearings with some good brand (but still resonably priced...) bearings, give some balance check again and put all back together with "Locktite" for bearings. This should reduce play and vibrations. What you think about it? I plan to buy 2.2kW version for my budget router. Pozdrowienia Piotr.
i would recommend to buy spindle with 4 bearings to start with. vibrations are coming from bad balancing or not balancing at all. opening spindle and squirting locktite here and there could actually make it worse. beside to open a spindle you might need some special tools and its not so trivial as it might appear. so if you dont have to leave it alone. better to spend extra 100$ more and get better spindle than wasting time with badly made spindle which you wont be able to fix. powodzenia :D
I really appreciate your feedback. I'm trying to make videos about stuff i was looking for but i couldn't find. unfortunately when it comes to recording i forget half of the things i was going to talk about and other half is unusable because im drifting away mumbling :) Im trying to answer questions, because it's just how i am, and because obviously i haven't explain something well enough in the video.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki we appreciate your videos. Also the aspirations to do a perfect job every time. However imperfect videos are far better than no videos. I need to keep reminding myself of that, and make some.
i keep monitoring the time frame on this video in anticipation of the sudden add popup at near the end as the volume was at maximum toggle,thank you for the infos.
Hi again, I’ve just ordered a water cooled spindle but I’m finding conflicting information about what liquid mix is best so thought I’d come and ask one of the few people I can trust knowing you use them well. Cheers, Steve....
Just use car engine coolant. It has anti rust and prevents all sort of organic life forms. Keep it in a closed bucket so it doesnt collect dust. Anti rust is not so important as spindle is made out of stainless steel. Maybe some fittings might not be. You coyld even use regular water mixed with some alcohol to stop bacterial growth etc. But you would have to check it time to time as alcohol eventually evaporates.
I 2nd the just use car anti-freeze, but use distilled water instead, so you don't have algae/clogging problems. I set mine up with the radiator from a closed loop cpu cooler system. It never gets hot, and it's great having a closed loop system.
hi sir , please to advise for spindle , that cut and mill ,alu and soft metal , thanks rpm could be low as possible 20 mm end mill could be acceptable thanks
You forgot to mention that the major difference between 2.2kW and 1.5kW is that the first one has a duplex pair of 7005 near the collet whereas the latter one uses 7003 which are considerably smaller and yet weaker. So if you consider milling aluminium 2.2kw is the way to go.
Yea, I think the other two spindles have a pair of radial skate-board bearings, with no thrust support. Someone made a scooter motor and machined an er-11 on the end, then called it a spindle except it has no angular contact bearings.
Hello, I have a 1.5kw Chinese spindle when it heats up it stops but it is connected to the water pump and the water is still circulating it heats up from the bottom and stops what will be the problem? Thank you!!
Water cooled spindle is closed and quiet. Air-cooled spindle is open so the air can go through and it's noisy as hell. Water cooled spindle is good to be used with flood/mist coolants. Where the Air-cooled spindles in my opinion should be used for cutting wood. Etc.. where you don't spray coolant on the thing you cutting. Honestly I don't know why they still make Air-cooled spindles. With water-cooled spindle you can cut anything
Great video, good information. I have a question. I have a new spindle same as the one you have installed on your machine, the water pump going into the spindle is high pressure but coming out is very little, just a trickle, is this normal?
I would say it's not so important ;) pump they sell with those spindles it's a pond pump. They are really weak and they can't pump water high. So I would recommend to put bucket with coolant on the same level as spindle. The other thing is if the water is not warm. You don't have problem. If the water leaving spindle is warm than you have to increase the flow. Bigger pump or higher.
A trickle is normal. The internal channels are very small and restrictive. I added a cheap temperature sensor in the water send tube to check the temperature when machining. I’ve only just added this and run a few short jobs of about 20 minutes but when starting at 10 degrees (it’s cold in the UK) it rises to about 22 degrees. I don’t know what a safe upper limit is but I am thinking of
Excellent video as always! I am looking at spindle selection. What range of spindle RPMs do you use the most for steel and aluminum, please? All carbide tooling? I read that carbide allows use of 2..3X the RPMs vs. HSS. As a design trade-off (there is no free lunch), higher speed spindles deliver lower torque for the same input power. Perhaps some of the VFD failures seen are caused by using a low torque, high speed spindle motor as a high torque, low speed spindle and overloading it. The current under load would be excessive unless the VFD has good overcurrent protection, and I wonder how long an inexpensive VFD will last in current limiting. Looking at recommended SFMs for milling and drilling aluminum and steel using carbide, it seems an RPM range lower than 8000 .. 24000 and higher torque is needed for larger tool diameters. For example, a 1/2" (12.7mm) drill in mild steel at 110 SFM is 840 RPM using a HSS drill; around 2..3X the RPM (1680 .. 2520 RPM) using carbide. Perhaps for this type of spindle, only use small diameter carbide tooling? Ideally a machine would have both high speed and low speed, high torque spindles, or a transmission of some kind. Unfortunately that would cost more and be more complex.
@@AlexJoneses obviously. I was pointing out that electric motors can be designed for different speed ranges. For the same power, as a non-spindle example, a 3500 RPM AC induction motor will deliver twice the speed and half the torque of a 1750 RPM version. The same principle applies to spindle motors. Now if you use a VFD to run each slower: a 1750 RPM run at 875 RPM is going to deliver far more torque than a 3500 RPM run at 875 RPM.
It depends on the vfd's capabilities. A vfd from the larger motors can probably go small enough. But trying to take the smaller motor's vfd and throw a larger motor is likely pushing it out of a sustainable wattage, even if it can run for a bit. Think of the VFD as a power supply. Run it half power, and it lasts near forever. Run it at max, and you can expect a failure within less than 3 years (maybe a lot shorter than that). Then factor in chinese cheap component quality. Any bad connections or borderline acceptable components will show their true colors real fast (in this case, smokey black)
Hey Piotr, nice video!! I'm going go buy a 2,2kw or 3kw spindle.... hey did you build your cnc? looks like granite.. is it? I would like to build one like that... did you explain your project somewhere?
Good luck on buying the spindle,get one with 4 bearings. Answering your question about the machine. Yes it's made out of granite and I made it my self. I've put a playlist of making off videos here: CNC made out of granite - making off: th-cam.com/play/PLw9YzKPg2guwQWLkz8_BoMfvQ8Ttsq-57.html It's not as easy as it appears ;)
Piotr Fox Wysocki Hi Piotr, I just watched your videos building it!! Amazing!!! great work!! I can imagine that it was a lot of work.... but I'm sure it was worth it! hey how I can check if it is with 4 bearings :S I just look at them and they look all the same... :( what do you mean by german bearing? made in germany? or is some type of bearing... do you have some place that I could buy a good spindle 2,2kw or 3kw?
@@RF-yh3qh if spindle has 4 bearings they will put it proudly in the description. Sometimes they also mention that the bearings are German. Not sure if it's a good thing ;) all those spindles are build to be cheap. So best you can do is to get one which is build slightly better possibly with better than average bearings. Can't recommend any source for them because whatever I got is just rubbish. Or perhaps spindles for ENGRAVING not MILLING
@@PiotrFoxWysocki F.Y.I. the bearings advertised as "German" are actually made in china by a company named "Germany Esky Ltd" So Germany is the name of the company. Not the country of origin. Clever, isn't it? ;-D
this is actually genius! :) i was suspecting something strange there. why they would get German bearings instead of Japanese ones, since its closer, faster and cheaper to send. and quality could be even better. I had something similar happening to me. I was importing power supplies and i needed a Australian or New Zealand certificate of compliance. so i asked if they have one. and yes they swiftly provided one. So i checked it.. it turned out that they founded existing SAA certificate somewhere on internet and then they Photoshopped all the details, so it was their company on it and exact model of the power supply. When I checked it on SAA site, turned out it was a certificate on a toaster from completely different company. I went through about 20 companies and none of them had real certificates. Some of those companies will do anything just to sell.
Very interesting, I've thought many times about these spindles, either as a replacement for mine or as a secondary spindle. Going to try an AC servo first though only 750W.
at some point i was considering using stepper nema 42 as a spindle. i would never have to worry for lack of power or burning vfd. also i would be able to thread holes :) down side would be lowish SFM.
Hi. Thanks for the informative review. I have a question. Im working on a planer rig for wood table tops/slabs. Do you think this 2.2 kw spindle can be used for this? Also can i mount a shank cutter in this collet? (I have 12 mm collet shanks that can be up to 5 cm wide to even the surface faster)
Hi, thanks for your great video ! I'd like to build a QueenBee cnc 750X1000mm machine and cut not only wood but aluminium as well. What type of spindle do you recommend ? Thanks
Hi! Great video. Really informative. I currently have a 1.5kW spindle on my router and it takes ER11 collets. I'd like to upgrade it to take ER16 or ER20. Do you know if this is possible? Is it an easy process? I've seen cheap collet adapters on eBay. (ER16A) Or do I just need a new spindle entirely? Like your 2.2 kW ER20 spindle? Hope you can help James
I'm afraid that those cheap collet adapters (er16a) are used for lathes. up-scaling er11 to er 16 or 20. in my opinion is a terribly bad idea on every possible level. just get 2.2kw er20 spindle. now from the experience i can say that maximum size end mill for this spindle would be 10mm. it just doesn't have power for anything bigger. sometimes i guess its good to have option for larger mill for some light and specific job. so i would go for er20. but without illusion that i can use 13mm end mill as my favorite tool.
Hi Fox, firs of all very nice review!! I have some questions, Im having a little trouble whit my brand new spindle (3.5 kw 4 poles), it gets to hot above 75 Celcius degrees (167 Farenheit), my question is if you have experimented the same situation with those spindles? And the second is how do you calculate the stator resistance, rotor and leakage inductance, etc for the VFD settings, actually im working whit the default values? Thanks in advance, best regards.
75deg sounds like a lot. please check my vfd video with all the necessary parameters to be set for those king of spindles th-cam.com/video/ZOdCpw7xnQA/w-d-xo.html everything should be pretty much the same except max Amps.
Hello... Thank for the video. I'm thinking of using one of these .8kw spindles (probably the air cooled version) for a diy spindle sander. Do you think a .8kw spindle would have enough torque for say about a 50mm diameter sanding cylinder?
We don't have an answer, but if I had to wager a guess: Bad power/power surge (even expensive stuff sometimes dies to this) or cheaper parts in vfd (Cap or transformer blew) which is much more likely when a vfd is undersized/cheap (a bigger vfd would have a higher heat capacity and barely be using that, vs a small vfd running near maxed out)
Hi Piotr Great video thanks, impressive ! I project to upgrade my CNC with a water Spindle , did you have experience with G-penny chinese spindle , they propose model with ceramic bearing ? and model with 380v ? Thanks for your advise Iwan
@@PiotrFoxWysocki Thank, for reply I try to choice a spindle, but it's is a jungle .... there are many constructor on internet , do you have a recommendation for a chinese kit 2.2kw or its better to buy separately ?
I bought as a kit. Vfd is still going after 5 years. Spindle died after 8 months ;) I can recommend jianken spindles, they have really good quality and for sure they use good quality ceramic bearings. Even if you pay more you will save in long run on the replacement and shipping.
Depends how you use it. I would say 2.2kw. For reasonably big cuts. All depends from the type of work and tool sizes. If you do some tiny things you can get smaller one. From the expirience I wouldn't go any lower than 2.2.
thank you would you recommend the 800 watt spindle as a new starter to cnc , my gantry is only 1075 open builds lead screw. and apart from a Mach 3 3018 machine before which was a 100 watt spindle i have not used anything more powerful apart from a router on the side of a piece of wood. I am concerned about noise , I am not to worried if the job takes longer to do if I use smaller bits, my work area is not huge and I wont be cutting metal just wood. I have a lot of good ER11 bits so I would like to try and use them, I have been offered a spindle from the usual ebay suppliers with a 1l5 kw inverter so i am assuming that if the spindle wears out or I find it not big enough I could just swap it out for a 1.5 kw spindle? thanks. good video.
if you want to replace spindle in your 3018 cnc i think 800watt would be maximum you could put in it. water cooled spindles are really quiet in comparison to air cooled
@@PiotrFoxWysocki Tx No, slight misunderstanding I am thinking of using the 800 watt water spindle in my 1075 openbuilds machine in place of a de walt or makita, do you think it would be worthwhile or should i look at the 1.5 kw version, I just concerned with the weight on the openbuilds c beam extrusion as i want a water filled one. The 3018 is fine with the 100 watt one it has, just takes longer, for me its more important to choose the right machine for my larger cnc, Also I have a lot of good router bits that are ER11.
@@sitgesvillaapartmentneilsc7924 im not a very big fan of aluminium extrusion machines because they are very flimsy and vibrate like crazy. 800w sounds like sensible choice but on the other hand it is very light spindle. 1.5kw is heavier, because of it it should dampen high frequency vibrations bit better. and because its heavier it shouldn't jump up and down as much as something lighter. btw. any spindle is better than dewalt or makita. i had couple of wood working routers dewalt, bosh, Hitachi. the amount of vibration they generate is just unbelievable.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki ok thank you, on my machine I have doubled up on the C beams where necessary and put a lot of additional support in to it. I havent being using the standard 10mm bolts they send I tapped out to 50mm and loctited them in so the frame is as rigid as I can make it. I'm not going to be milling aluminum or any other metals just wood, its all clamped down with bolts on to a nylon sheet on a prefabricated steel support table I made made of of heavy metal and then that is bolted to the concrete floor through adjustable machine feet to try and deaden any vibrations, I mixed my own rubber compound using a two component product that I used on my lathe that works really well for vibrations. That weighs over a ton! I have tried to make the machine as heavy and rigid as i can within my budget I have also put in a much heavier spoilboard board made up of 15mm marine ply laminated to 25mm mdf to try and give me a much firmer bed and weight, thats the idea, at the moment using a friends trim router on a piece of hardwood it doesn't seem to be to bad. My concern was going to a much higher powered spindle what the harmonics would do to vibrations but by the sound of it a spindle is the best choice over a router which of course is not designed for this or balanced properly. Maybe the 1.5 would be the better choice.... I started off with a much smaller machine and had that working beautifully , just the bed was not big enough and that was with a 300 watt spindle. Thanks for the advice, hopefully it will all work out fine with all the additional work I have put in.
please check this video th-cam.com/video/pWNeW-lH9RA/w-d-xo.html its about 2.5kw spindle but this company makes all sizes and they make them really well. all the information you can find in the video description.
Good day !!!!! GREAT VIDEO !!! , I am writing to you to see if you can help me with a problem. The spindle was working well, one day, when reconnecting the current it stopped working and now it starts turning it around with the hand and it has no force. Do you know know more or less where the problem to see if I can solve it? Many thanks !
there is too many possibilities for me to give any advice what could be wrong. but its always good to check if wiring between spindle and VFD is still where is should be. once you are sure you will have to make some calls. faulty spindle or vfd. i would guess vfd.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki yeah, before that I was using EPR710 and after changing the brushes it burned the motor completely, I thought that these 800w routers are too weak to be a spindle for my speeds and feeds, it was high time to improve.
Hah you show it ! I knew this type of motor is BLDC type and you proof it I can see the neodynium magnets. So one pin is also isolated at your motor ? In that case you could also use a wire to ground your casing to earth ground makes it safer at 230V.
Are you using some kind of special shielded cable to connect your spindle? Also what are you using for water cooling loop, is it plain distilled water? I know my questions are a bit off-topic but You seem to have quite a bit of experience with Chinese spindles :P
Not sure if it's special but it is shielded ;) otherwise stepper motors would go nuts. For cooling I'm using regular water with few glases of isopropyl to prevent algies and bacteria growth. No need to use detailed water.
Perhaps a type of long-life antifreeze? I understand it provides both antifreeze *and* has corrosion inhibitor additives. Car engines and cooling systems have multiple kinds of metal, leading to bimetallic corrosion. Antifreeze contains additives to prevent this corrosion. Seems like a spindle and pump would be a similar situation. The corrosion inhibitors get used up over time, so changing the coolant periodically is required. I plan to use long-life coolant and change it according to the label, probably every five years.
My goal here was to show all sorts of spindle sizes how they compare and what is inside. I would measure runout if it would be a review of particular brand.
runout on the shaft of both ER11's is 0 microns and on the ER20 is 1 micron. all the circus of runouts starts when you use collets, mine are from 5 microns up to 80 microns.
Cześć. Możesz powiedzieć jakie masz silniki i sterowniki w tej maszynce? Ile Nm i A? Nie masz dostępu do wrzeciona 3kW, byłby komplecik do porównania :) Planuję właśnie wymienić swoje 1,5kw na 3kW. Łap suba :)
Driver gecko540, Z - Dual Shaft Nema 24 CNC Stepper Motor 4Nm (566 oz.in) 60x60x100mm 8 Wires X and Y Dual Shaft Nema 23 Bipolar 1.9Nm (269oz.in) 2.8A 3.2V 57x57x76mm 4 Wires
mam w planie kupic wage na sprezynie czy cos takiego i pokazac ile te silniki sa w stanie przesunac. obstawiam ze kolo 80kg, podejzewam ze endmill sie zlamie wczesniej niz silniki sie przytkaja, no moze nie 10mm wiertle :) ale 6 to napewno peknie.
Great overview thankyou. I see you have built your own CNC machine and it looks great. If you are interested see episode 23 on my channel where I finish mine. All the best !
Thanks, I both have a 1.2kw water cooled that needs new bearings and have been looking at getting a 2.2kw spindle.
It was nice to see the take apart and get an answer to the practical limits of the 2.2kw (starts to struggle with ~3/8" endmills for anyone watching in America)
Great video thanks. I'm building my own CNC router and after watching this video I have decided to go for a 2.2kw to start with.
You just gave the best information on spindles on all of TH-cam that I could find. I was wondering if you could make a video (with a jig) showing how to balance your spindle (or maybe you already have that some wehere) and maybe a video on how to replace a spindle bearing. Just some ideas that I know other DIY's might find extremely valuable.
5:00 - by looking at the way the bearing slide in into its bearing housing i'm not feel comfortable:/ Imagine the radial play at this end. I think it is worth to take the spindle apart, replace the bearings with some good brand (but still resonably priced...) bearings, give some balance check again and put all back together with "Locktite" for bearings. This should reduce play and vibrations. What you think about it? I plan to buy 2.2kW version for my budget router.
Pozdrowienia Piotr.
i would recommend to buy spindle with 4 bearings to start with. vibrations are coming from bad balancing or not balancing at all. opening spindle and squirting locktite here and there could actually make it worse. beside to open a spindle you might need some special tools and its not so trivial as it might appear. so if you dont have to leave it alone. better to spend extra 100$ more and get better spindle than wasting time with badly made spindle which you wont be able to fix. powodzenia :D
Hi Piotr, Realy informative video, it is super nice that you answer peoples questions, sometimes it clarifies questions that I also had.
I really appreciate your feedback. I'm trying to make videos about stuff i was looking for but i couldn't find. unfortunately when it comes to recording i forget half of the things i was going to talk about and other half is unusable because im drifting away mumbling :)
Im trying to answer questions, because it's just how i am, and because obviously i haven't explain something well enough in the video.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki we appreciate your videos. Also the aspirations to do a perfect job every time. However imperfect videos are far better than no videos. I need to keep reminding myself of that, and make some.
Thanks for that. Very refreshing to find someone who makes sense.
This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks
i keep monitoring the time frame on this video in anticipation of the sudden add popup at near the end as the volume was at maximum toggle,thank you for the infos.
Thank you so much! Only video on the internet for this!
The pipe through which the water circulated has rusted and now the water can no longer circulate, how should I clean it?
Priceless information great video 👍
Finally a no nonsense review !! Thanks a lot !
Interested in the jig you spoke about to check the rotor balance. Can you share more info? Thank you
nice video but I missed testing. BTW the runout is good enough?
Hi again, I’ve just ordered a water cooled spindle but I’m finding conflicting information about what liquid mix is best so thought I’d come and ask one of the few people I can trust knowing you use them well. Cheers, Steve....
Just use car engine coolant.
It has anti rust and prevents all sort of organic life forms. Keep it in a closed bucket so it doesnt collect dust. Anti rust is not so important as spindle is made out of stainless steel. Maybe some fittings might not be.
You coyld even use regular water mixed with some alcohol to stop bacterial growth etc. But you would have to check it time to time as alcohol eventually evaporates.
Piotr Fox Wysocki thanks for your quick response and look forward to watching your videos 👍
I 2nd the just use car anti-freeze, but use distilled water instead, so you don't have algae/clogging problems.
I set mine up with the radiator from a closed loop cpu cooler system. It never gets hot, and it's great having a closed loop system.
hi sir , please to advise for spindle , that cut and mill ,alu and soft metal , thanks
rpm could be low as possible
20 mm end mill could be acceptable
thanks
You forgot to mention that the major difference between 2.2kW and 1.5kW is that the first one has a duplex pair of 7005 near the collet whereas the latter one uses 7003 which are considerably smaller and yet weaker. So if you consider milling aluminium 2.2kw is the way to go.
Yea, I think the other two spindles have a pair of radial skate-board bearings, with no thrust support. Someone made a scooter motor and machined an er-11 on the end, then called it a spindle except it has no angular contact bearings.
Hey man were did you buy all these granite plates
and how much did you spend on them
Only just found you but the few videos I’ve seen are good and you deserve far more likes 👍
whats your opinion? would a small that 2.2kw er20 work on a 5axismaker machine for a 20cm long flute for cork or foam milling?
Yes. A 2.2kw would be overkill for cork and foam. The 2.2kw can cut mild steel slowly with lots of noise 🤣
Hello, I have a 1.5kw Chinese spindle when it heats up it stops
but it is connected to the water pump and the water is still circulating it heats up from the bottom and stops
what will be the problem?
Thank you!!
there is few possibilities, water flow is not enough, bad bearing, when it heats up it expands and seizing. or wrong settings on vfd.
great think's what difference between liquid-cooled and air cooled motor of the cnc machine
Water cooled spindle is closed and quiet. Air-cooled spindle is open so the air can go through and it's noisy as hell. Water cooled spindle is good to be used with flood/mist coolants. Where the Air-cooled spindles in my opinion should be used for cutting wood. Etc.. where you don't spray coolant on the thing you cutting. Honestly I don't know why they still make Air-cooled spindles. With water-cooled spindle you can cut anything
@@PiotrFoxWysocki think you
Great video, good information. I have a question. I have a new spindle same as the one you have installed on your machine, the water pump going into the spindle is high pressure but coming out is very little, just a trickle, is this normal?
I would say it's not so important ;) pump they sell with those spindles it's a pond pump. They are really weak and they can't pump water high. So I would recommend to put bucket with coolant on the same level as spindle. The other thing is if the water is not warm. You don't have problem. If the water leaving spindle is warm than you have to increase the flow. Bigger pump or higher.
A trickle is normal. The internal channels are very small and restrictive. I added a cheap temperature sensor in the water send tube to check the temperature when machining. I’ve only just added this and run a few short jobs of about 20 minutes but when starting at 10 degrees (it’s cold in the UK) it rises to about 22 degrees. I don’t know what a safe upper limit is but I am thinking of
Excellent video as always!
I am looking at spindle selection. What range of spindle RPMs do you use the most for steel and aluminum, please? All carbide tooling? I read that carbide allows use of 2..3X the RPMs vs. HSS.
As a design trade-off (there is no free lunch), higher speed spindles deliver lower torque for the same input power. Perhaps some of the VFD failures seen are caused by using a low torque, high speed spindle motor as a high torque, low speed spindle and overloading it. The current under load would be excessive unless the VFD has good overcurrent protection, and I wonder how long an inexpensive VFD will last in current limiting.
Looking at recommended SFMs for milling and drilling aluminum and steel using carbide, it seems an RPM range lower than 8000 .. 24000 and higher torque is needed for larger tool diameters. For example, a 1/2" (12.7mm) drill in mild steel at 110 SFM is 840 RPM using a HSS drill; around 2..3X the RPM (1680 .. 2520 RPM) using carbide. Perhaps for this type of spindle, only use small diameter carbide tooling?
Ideally a machine would have both high speed and low speed, high torque spindles, or a transmission of some kind. Unfortunately that would cost more and be more complex.
"as a design trade off" my brother in christ if you had the same torque at a higher RPM that would require higher power its literally just physics
@@AlexJoneses obviously. I was pointing out that electric motors can be designed for different speed ranges. For the same power, as a non-spindle example, a 3500 RPM AC induction motor will deliver twice the speed and half the torque of a 1750 RPM version. The same principle applies to spindle motors.
Now if you use a VFD to run each slower: a 1750 RPM run at 875 RPM is going to deliver far more torque than a 3500 RPM run at 875 RPM.
Is it simply interchangeable?
Isn't it necessary to replace the electric controller and inverter?
It depends on the vfd's capabilities. A vfd from the larger motors can probably go small enough. But trying to take the smaller motor's vfd and throw a larger motor is likely pushing it out of a sustainable wattage, even if it can run for a bit.
Think of the VFD as a power supply. Run it half power, and it lasts near forever. Run it at max, and you can expect a failure within less than 3 years (maybe a lot shorter than that).
Then factor in chinese cheap component quality. Any bad connections or borderline acceptable components will show their true colors real fast (in this case, smokey black)
Hey Piotr, nice video!! I'm going go buy a 2,2kw or 3kw spindle.... hey did you build your cnc? looks like granite.. is it? I would like to build one like that... did you explain your project somewhere?
Good luck on buying the spindle,get one with 4 bearings.
Answering your question about the machine. Yes it's made out of granite and I made it my self.
I've put a playlist of making off videos here: CNC made out of granite - making off: th-cam.com/play/PLw9YzKPg2guwQWLkz8_BoMfvQ8Ttsq-57.html
It's not as easy as it appears ;)
Piotr Fox Wysocki Hi Piotr, I just watched your videos building it!! Amazing!!! great work!!
I can imagine that it was a lot of work.... but I'm sure it was worth it!
hey how I can check if it is with 4 bearings :S I just look at them and they look all the same... :(
what do you mean by german bearing? made in germany? or is some type of bearing...
do you have some place that I could buy a good spindle 2,2kw or 3kw?
@@RF-yh3qh if spindle has 4 bearings they will put it proudly in the description. Sometimes they also mention that the bearings are German. Not sure if it's a good thing ;) all those spindles are build to be cheap. So best you can do is to get one which is build slightly better possibly with better than average bearings. Can't recommend any source for them because whatever I got is just rubbish. Or perhaps spindles for ENGRAVING not MILLING
@@PiotrFoxWysocki F.Y.I. the bearings advertised as "German" are actually made in china by a company named "Germany Esky Ltd"
So Germany is the name of the company. Not the country of origin.
Clever, isn't it? ;-D
this is actually genius! :) i was suspecting something strange there. why they would get German bearings instead of Japanese ones, since its closer, faster and cheaper to send. and quality could be even better.
I had something similar happening to me. I was importing power supplies and i needed a Australian or New Zealand certificate of compliance. so i asked if they have one. and yes they swiftly provided one. So i checked it.. it turned out that they founded existing SAA certificate somewhere on internet and then they Photoshopped all the details, so it was their company on it and exact model of the power supply. When I checked it on SAA site, turned out it was a certificate on a toaster from completely different company.
I went through about 20 companies and none of them had real certificates.
Some of those companies will do anything just to sell.
Very interesting, I've thought many times about these spindles, either as a replacement for mine or as a secondary spindle. Going to try an AC servo first though only 750W.
at some point i was considering using stepper nema 42 as a spindle. i would never have to worry for lack of power or burning vfd. also i would be able to thread holes :) down side would be lowish SFM.
Hi. Thanks for the informative review. I have a question. Im working on a planer rig for wood table tops/slabs. Do you think this 2.2 kw spindle can be used for this? Also can i mount a shank cutter in this collet? (I have 12 mm collet shanks that can be up to 5 cm wide to even the surface faster)
For 5cm wide face mill you need rigid machine and 2.2kw is on the limit. Spindle is just too small with small bearings and it will fail eventually
Доброго вам дня! Подскажите, на шпинделе 800 Вт какие подшипники установлены?
Hi, thanks for your great video ! I'd like to build a QueenBee cnc 750X1000mm machine and cut not only wood but aluminium as well. What type of spindle do you recommend ? Thanks
any decent spindle with atc. 3kw check my other videos i have spindle like that.
Hi!
Great video. Really informative. I currently have a 1.5kW spindle on my router and it takes ER11 collets. I'd like to upgrade it to take ER16 or ER20. Do you know if this is possible? Is it an easy process? I've seen cheap collet adapters on eBay. (ER16A) Or do I just need a new spindle entirely? Like your 2.2 kW ER20 spindle?
Hope you can help
James
I'm afraid that those cheap collet adapters (er16a) are used for lathes. up-scaling er11 to er 16 or 20. in my opinion is a terribly bad idea on every possible level. just get 2.2kw er20 spindle. now from the experience i can say that maximum size end mill for this spindle would be 10mm. it just doesn't have power for anything bigger. sometimes i guess its good to have option for larger mill for some light and specific job. so i would go for er20. but without illusion that i can use 13mm end mill as my favorite tool.
Great! Cheers for the advice
Which supplier are these from? Thanks
generic ebay buy.
Hi Fox, firs of all very nice review!!
I have some questions, Im having a little trouble whit my brand new spindle (3.5 kw 4 poles), it gets to hot above 75 Celcius degrees (167 Farenheit), my question is if you have experimented the same situation with those spindles?
And the second is how do you calculate the stator resistance, rotor and leakage inductance, etc for the VFD settings, actually im working whit the default values?
Thanks in advance, best regards.
75deg sounds like a lot. please check my vfd video with all the necessary parameters to be set for those king of spindles th-cam.com/video/ZOdCpw7xnQA/w-d-xo.html everything should be pretty much the same except max Amps.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki thanks you friend.
Hello... Thank for the video. I'm thinking of using one of these .8kw spindles (probably the air cooled version) for a diy spindle sander. Do you think a .8kw spindle would have enough torque for say about a 50mm diameter sanding cylinder?
I think you want a low speed spindle for that (8k or 12k rpm, not a 24k)
Hi Piotr! Could you tell us what was the reason why the VFD died? Was it due to setup errors or something? Greetings from Chile!.
We don't have an answer, but if I had to wager a guess:
Bad power/power surge (even expensive stuff sometimes dies to this)
or
cheaper parts in vfd (Cap or transformer blew) which is much more likely when a vfd is undersized/cheap (a bigger vfd would have a higher heat capacity and barely be using that, vs a small vfd running near maxed out)
Hi Piotr Great video thanks, impressive !
I project to upgrade my CNC with a water Spindle , did you have experience with G-penny chinese spindle , they propose model with ceramic bearing ?
and model with 380v ?
Thanks for your advise
Iwan
Never heard. Sorry
@@PiotrFoxWysocki Thank, for reply
I try to choice a spindle, but it's is a jungle .... there are many constructor on internet , do you have a recommendation for a chinese kit 2.2kw or its better to buy separately ?
I bought as a kit. Vfd is still going after 5 years. Spindle died after 8 months ;) I can recommend jianken spindles, they have really good quality and for sure they use good quality ceramic bearings. Even if you pay more you will save in long run on the replacement and shipping.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki thanks for your help and congratulation for your work
whats KW spindle is the best one for wood work ?
Depends how you use it. I would say 2.2kw. For reasonably big cuts. All depends from the type of work and tool sizes. If you do some tiny things you can get smaller one. From the expirience I wouldn't go any lower than 2.2.
thank you would you recommend the 800 watt spindle as a new starter to cnc , my gantry is only 1075 open builds lead screw. and apart from a Mach 3 3018 machine before which was a 100 watt spindle i have not used anything more powerful apart from a router on the side of a piece of wood. I am concerned about noise , I am not to worried if the job takes longer to do if I use smaller bits, my work area is not huge and I wont be cutting metal just wood. I have a lot of good ER11 bits so I would like to try and use them, I have been offered a spindle from the usual ebay suppliers with a 1l5 kw inverter so i am assuming that if the spindle wears out or I find it not big enough I could just swap it out for a 1.5 kw spindle? thanks. good video.
if you want to replace spindle in your 3018 cnc i think 800watt would be maximum you could put in it. water cooled spindles are really quiet in comparison to air cooled
@@PiotrFoxWysocki Tx No, slight misunderstanding I am thinking of using the 800 watt water spindle in my 1075 openbuilds machine in place of a de walt or makita, do you think it would be worthwhile or should i look at the 1.5 kw version, I just concerned with the weight on the openbuilds c beam extrusion as i want a water filled one. The 3018 is fine with the 100 watt one it has, just takes longer, for me its more important to choose the right machine for my larger cnc, Also I have a lot of good router bits that are ER11.
@@sitgesvillaapartmentneilsc7924 im not a very big fan of aluminium extrusion machines because they are very flimsy and vibrate like crazy. 800w sounds like sensible choice but on the other hand it is very light spindle. 1.5kw is heavier, because of it it should dampen high frequency vibrations bit better. and because its heavier it shouldn't jump up and down as much as something lighter. btw. any spindle is better than dewalt or makita. i had couple of wood working routers dewalt, bosh, Hitachi. the amount of vibration they generate is just unbelievable.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki ok thank you, on my machine I have doubled up on the C beams where necessary and put a lot of additional support in to it. I havent being using the standard 10mm bolts they send I tapped out to 50mm and loctited them in so the frame is as rigid as I can make it.
I'm not going to be milling aluminum or any other metals just wood, its all clamped down with bolts on to a nylon sheet on a prefabricated steel support table I made made of of heavy metal and then that is bolted to the concrete floor through adjustable machine feet to try and deaden any vibrations, I mixed my own rubber compound using a two component product that I used on my lathe that works really well for vibrations. That weighs over a ton!
I have tried to make the machine as heavy and rigid as i can within my budget
I have also put in a much heavier spoilboard board made up of 15mm marine ply laminated to 25mm mdf to try and give me a much firmer bed and weight, thats the idea, at the moment using a friends trim router on a piece of hardwood it doesn't seem to be to bad. My concern was going to a much higher powered spindle what the harmonics would do to vibrations but by the sound of it a spindle is the best choice over a router which of course is not designed for this or balanced properly. Maybe the 1.5 would be the better choice....
I started off with a much smaller machine and had that working beautifully , just the bed was not big enough and that was with a 300 watt spindle. Thanks for the advice, hopefully it will all work out fine with all the additional work I have put in.
can you use 110v spindle on 220v vfd? are the spindles really volt rated or is it vfd dependant?
Dear friend. Which Chinese brand you recommend water cooling spindle 5.5kw. ??
please check this video th-cam.com/video/pWNeW-lH9RA/w-d-xo.html its about 2.5kw spindle but this company makes all sizes and they make them really well. all the information you can find in the video description.
Very nice video with good information!
Good day !!!!! GREAT VIDEO !!! , I am writing to you to see if you can help me with a problem. The spindle was working well, one day, when reconnecting the current it stopped working and now it starts turning it around with the hand and it has no force. Do you know know more or less where the problem to see if I can solve it? Many thanks !
there is too many possibilities for me to give any advice what could be wrong. but its always good to check if wiring between spindle and VFD is still where is should be. once you are sure you will have to make some calls. faulty spindle or vfd. i would guess vfd.
@@PiotrFoxWysocki Many thanks for answer !!!! i`ll check !!!!!
H sir
Sir I have e004 error on my CNC machine can you help? Spindle stop immediately
Please
Are you from poland? Great video, just got water colled 1.5KW for my shapeoko pro
I am ;) I guess its a big improvement to the machine
@@PiotrFoxWysocki yeah, before that I was using EPR710 and after changing the brushes it burned the motor completely, I thought that these 800w routers are too weak to be a spindle for my speeds and feeds, it was high time to improve.
Hi Piotr. Any brand name or url?
Hah you show it ! I knew this type of motor is BLDC type and you proof it I can see the neodynium magnets. So one pin is also isolated at your motor ? In that case you could also use a wire to ground your casing to earth ground makes it safer at 230V.
Have you ever used an air-cooled one?
I haven't used it myself but I have seen it or hear it. They are good but loud.
Thank you for the comparison. It really helps me with my purchase decision.
really nice explaination sir thanks!
Much appreciated this video !
Are you using some kind of special shielded cable to connect your spindle? Also what are you using for water cooling loop, is it plain distilled water? I know my questions are a bit off-topic but You seem to have quite a bit of experience with Chinese spindles :P
Not sure if it's special but it is shielded ;) otherwise stepper motors would go nuts. For cooling I'm using regular water with few glases of isopropyl to prevent algies and bacteria growth. No need to use detailed water.
Perhaps a type of long-life antifreeze? I understand it provides both antifreeze *and* has corrosion inhibitor additives. Car engines and cooling systems have multiple kinds of metal, leading to bimetallic corrosion. Antifreeze contains additives to prevent this corrosion. Seems like a spindle and pump would be a similar situation.
The corrosion inhibitors get used up over time, so changing the coolant periodically is required. I plan to use long-life coolant and change it according to the label, probably every five years.
Audio is very quiet. If you normalize the sound it will bring it up to the right levels
U say nothing about they most important aspect of a spindle ! What is the runout compared to what the specs claim ?
My goal here was to show all sorts of spindle sizes how they compare and what is inside. I would measure runout if it would be a review of particular brand.
Hey man I msgd u in the comments sections of your videos about your email address how to contact u,,,,plz reply
Can you measure TIR?
runout on the shaft of both ER11's is 0 microns and on the ER20 is 1 micron.
all the circus of runouts starts when you use collets, mine are from 5 microns up to 80 microns.
Cześć. Możesz powiedzieć jakie masz silniki i sterowniki w tej maszynce? Ile Nm i A? Nie masz dostępu do wrzeciona 3kW, byłby komplecik do porównania :) Planuję właśnie wymienić swoje 1,5kw na 3kW.
Łap suba :)
Driver gecko540,
Z - Dual Shaft Nema 24 CNC Stepper Motor 4Nm (566 oz.in) 60x60x100mm 8 Wires
X and Y Dual Shaft Nema 23 Bipolar 1.9Nm (269oz.in) 2.8A 3.2V 57x57x76mm 4 Wires
Masz w planie atakować stal? 1.9Nm do alu to chyba tak na styk?
mam w planie kupic wage na sprezynie czy cos takiego i pokazac ile te silniki sa w stanie przesunac. obstawiam ze kolo 80kg, podejzewam ze endmill sie zlamie wczesniej niz silniki sie przytkaja, no moze nie 10mm wiertle :) ale 6 to napewno peknie.
too long. What's the management summery?
what about noise
I had to boost the volume in software by 600% to hear your intro.
Great overview thankyou. I see you have built your own CNC machine and it looks great. If you are interested see episode 23 on my channel where I finish mine. All the best !
The sound is so quiet
set playback speed to 1.75
Best advice i have ever seen on a youtube comment. His normal speed is slow motion lol
MrWizards1974 I second that
What a co-incidence - I just asked about this :-)
it was specially for you :)
very useful indeed!
SPEAK UP!
Your audio is way down in the mud, plus you tend to mumble, for someone hard of hearing it makes for hard to follow videos.
LOOoooOOOOL at 5:22
Just joking a bit, good video, i enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Set Playback speed to 1:75
You’re welcome
sound sucks