Beyoncé’s ‘Cowboy Carter’ Takes On Skeptics + Future & Kendrick Lamar vs. Drake | Popcast (Deluxe)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- This week’s episode of Popcast (Deluxe), the weekly culture roundup show on TH-cam hosted by Jon Caramanica and Joe Coscarelli, includes segments on:
00:00 Introduction
03:23 Beyoncé’s new album, “Cowboy Carter,” and how it faces the genre battle head-on by playing with decades of country and rock signifiers, plus how the conversation about its specifics can obscure the conversation about its quality
44:07 The new album by Future and Metro Boomin’, “We Don’t Trust You,” which marks a return to form for Future and includes a verse from Kendrick Lamar (and some lyrics from the host) seemingly aimed at Drake, potentially reigniting a hip-hop cold war
01:06:16 Songs of the week from Camila Cabello featuring Playboi Carti, and Oliver Anthony Music
01:17:27 Snack of the week
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"Country as a sound, vs country as a business", What people are missing is "country as a culture". What people are really talking about regarding the Cowboy Carter album, is the culture and the history of that culture. Saying things like "Beyonce isn't country" when she made the point of "How can I not be country", when country is her roots. Linda Martel and others like Willie Nelson were all making the point that "Country as a business and as a sound" is flawed because of the racist philosophies and lack of attachment to the culture it comes from. Race records, and forcing people into genres because of the practices in the business are problematic that's the point of the album. Whether it's country isn't a real conversation, it's country because Beyonce is country, and the artists she features on the album are country. There is no real debate there.
Totally agree! I think this channel did a good job at explaining their opinion of certain songs and I can tell what style of songs they prefer. However, I think they failed at understanding the cultural importance of this genre to Beyoncé. She has a very clear thesis with her opening song, and I hope they revisit the WHY instead of their REACTIONS. That may help them to better understand Daughter, Spaghetti, and Ya Ya. Cus they fit the thesis and this body of work so well!
Would love more CC discussion (Lindsay, Wesley, Caryn 🙏)
Yeah that discussion is so engaging and thus feels too short.
This is why it's important for me to listen to more well-informed Black music critics when it comes to albums like Cowboy Carter, b/c to dismiss Willie Jones and Shaboozey as not being worthy of being on the CC album is hella wild when a lame cosplaying , paper thin vocalist like Post Malone should never have been on anything Beyonce related..Saying Spaghetti is Beyonce's worst rapping is also laughable. Smh. Bless your heart.
right, they dont get it. Smh
II HANDS TO HEAVEN. I feel like the first part of the song belongs on 4 OR beyonce and the second half belongs on lemonade. Its been on repeat my favorite.
Team Alligator Tears
And this is why they don't have many subscribers. They don't discuss the actual music. Fake music critics
@@tkn7390 If you actually watch this entire thing and think that, it's your problem. I am a beyonce fan and I love this episode so much.
I feel like there's a cultural disconnect to your critiques. (The sampling discussion regarding Renaissance disregards the definition of the word and the reason the album was even made.) She's not trying to prove anything, she's making a clear statement.
As far as Jolene, which seems to really upset a lot of men online for some reason. If you listen to what Dolly has said when she's presented the song outside of the studio version, she's literally said she had a physical fight with Jolene. More than once. Beyonce just put that version on wax.
You mentioned that you were waiting for her to "sing" but completely disregard "Daughter" where she sings opera even after you played it. You ignore her harmonies & stacking on every song. She gets complaints when she "over sings" but when she doesn't, it's the same complaints.
"Who is it for," you asked several times. It's for her fans.
yeah I felt that about halfway through the conversation. Alot of "She's doing too much and unnecessary things" but part of it is tongue and cheek (the explaining), a bit of oral storytelling. sentiment for the community. Sometimes music choices can be also just for sentimental reasons. BLACKBIIRD was more of a community choice. also in the context of entering country, its a song white people know. its appealing to white listeners intially to gain support, and also find common ground. pandering to her audience maybe. idk maybe im fishing but a lil tone deaf yall. to be expected from nyt these days....
I agree. I felt like, idk. For one thing, I enjoy this little history project. And for them to say like, some of these samples and covers are of “well known songs or artists,” idk about that. I think yes maybe for tried and true music fans. Like for me, a black woman who has thoroughly enjoyed country for the years, I’m familiar with most of these little “tea leaves to uncover.” But for most of my friends who are simply “Beyoncé Fans,” or casual music listeners in general, she is providing a history that I’m watching a lot of my friends discover for the first time. Like starting with the first single dropped, Texas Hold ‘Em, most of my friends had no clue who Rihannon Giddens is. And now they’re on the journey “oh the banjo is an African instrument!!?!” It’s a cool fact for people who are casually interested in music history to learn, African American have had our hand in all of this for decades since pop music was a thing- some people are hearing that fact for the first time
They need a woman on this podcast.
@@ycoz5814 A black woman would be even better.
A consistent disconnect! This is especially true when discussing the cultural influences of the music. Their critiques read as out of touch and slightly elitist.
Cowboy Carter is a masterpiece. I’ve never seen something sound so unique and fresh. And the best part: there’s country elements spread everywhere, sharing space to another genre.
American requiem is an ode to all black creatives who somehow contributed in the art of music and passed away. You can feel both Prince and MJ inspirations on this record as if she brought them back. Blackbird is giving permission for people to be authentically theirs as The Beatles meant it to be.
When you are culturally numb you will not get it.this album is absolutely phenomenal
This album is meant to serve as a musical education of the African Americans historic place w/in Country music, which would sound like Irish Folk (great in It's own right, mind you) if it weren't for the Blues & Gospel of the enslaved Africans. This includes the BANJO, which was created by enslaved Africans in the Caribbean then, later brought to The States.
Yes, the banjo wasn't created by the Appalachians but by Africans.
I could also go into the Black artists that many of the earlier big name white country artists learned from then portrayed as their style....
as it was with Elvis and Black artists like Roy Hamilton, Big Mama Thornton, Chuck Berry and Sister Rosetta Tharpe - The Godmother of Rock & Roll), but it would take awhile. ;) Beyonce adds a bit of those artists work into this album as well.
Her last few projects have been a meld of grand musical production, a mosaic of Black History and how the two interconnect.
It appears that Beyonce is in a period of the Reclamation and Rejoicing of African American Culture, trying to correct the record due to the erasure and gate keeping whilst also trying to push The Culture forward in Unity, Knowledge and Beautiful Experiences and Conversations. 😎
It's what she's become known for.
The Superficial and surface level won't fully appreciate this album over the more curious and expansive minded.
I have checked frequently & waiting for this episode and wow it's amazing.
It seems Iike the online chatter about CC has been pretty offputting to you both. Understandable. I wonder if the album would still seem so contrived to yall if you heard it without that background noise? And without Jolene which I feel is contrived no matter who is covering or reworking it.
Was also surprised to hear the vocals didn’t seem central to you. I have complete opposite opinion. It’s really harkening to 2000s era Texas esque country songs… like Robert Earl Keen “feelin’ good again” guitar is really reminiscent of daughter but in minor. And a lot of others. It’s been really interesting to see how far the concept of Nashville country permeates peoples impression. Thanks guys!
I believe music is for everyone, and everyone's opinion is valid to them. However, listening to this review, i can now understand the criticism people have of some people doing reviews who are not culturally sensitive or aware. Missing the mark with this review on multiple levels.
THIS!!!
Yeah they're trying too hard to push their own narrative instead of appreciating the actual vocals, instruments and music
Jon's 4 hour per day tik-tok sessions taking a toll. Swiping away this rap beef talk like it's just another clip on the screen. Shouts to Joe for keeping this rap talk grounded... the truest essence of hip hop, the battle!
I just took out Major Labels from the BK library during their Night at Library event three weekends ago to do some research for work. Good looks 😁 I feel good about my choice ☺️📚📖🤓
Also wondering, if I sent my mail bag question via comments a few weeks ago will it be considered? I’m not on FB or Discord as much as I use to be and y’all use to answer comments in the show. This is just the more convenient space I occupy.
Country as a genre is more vast than people know. From Johnny cash to Lil Nas X to Luke Combs to Chuck Berry to Shania Twain to Bluegrass to Country Rock.
People should challenge their mental borders of the Genre bc its an iceberg
Jon’s reaction to the Kendrick verse is really interesting to me. He seems almost to enjoy it and not enjoy it? I don’t know, I’m forming this thought as I write it. It’s just fascinating that he identifies what Kendrick was doing with guys from his generation that I’m assuming he likes, but doesn’t like it from Kendrick. I think there’s a bit of revisionist history from his opinion about the Control verse and I don’t understand what he means when he says Kendrick is standing outside the party (man just did an arena tour and is always put with Drake on the gen’s rap mt. Rushmore), but interesting convo
So many points missed...
The NYT Popcast constantly let's down if not outright disrespects Black and queer culture. It's time for the popcast to diversify its critical diversity, especially when the critics themselves feel immune to criticism
please tell me how this review disrespected black and queer culture ( or do you mean music?)...this review was diverse...
I’m always feeling this way and seeing others comment this but it is nevvvvvver addressed by the hosts. Shame on you Joe and Jon.
Good to see a return to normalcy.
playboi carti is the dr pepper seasoning to camilla cabello’s peeps
The killers of the flowermoon=cowboycarter is quite an accurate description that makes so much sense. I enjoy the album but the unsubtle point is so valid.
31:19 also agree, to some extent.
I disagreed with some of your points on the album but they helped me understand more why I like it. Good talk
Sidenote: Whether or not drake is bothered, Drake is always bothered. Whether its from Kendrick or from a random cashier.
Her music isn’t for me and I can’t name a song that’s moved me in a meaningful way but I love what’s she’s accomplished and how she’s inspired a generation. Much respect!
Definitely disagree with Jon’s take that Kendrick sounds at all petulant or angry in his verse. I don’t think there is really any real animosity he has towards Drake. I’m glad Joe brought up Pusha T because clearly Push wanted to do Drake harm and disrespects him on a personal level. To me, this is a classic example of Kendrick trying to bring back some of the magic that has been lost from hip hop in recent years, particularly the competition/rap is a sport mentality. Speaking of sport, Lebron is a great example. Lebron doesn’t hate Steph Curry but when he’s playing against him in the Finals, he’s gonna do everything he possibly can to win. It’s not personal. It’s just the game. I think people should be grateful to Kendrick for trying to bring back the competition element to hip hop. The everyone is friends era of industry name dropping and rappers constantly posting pics and hanging out with one another (which is usually staged) is bad for the quality of the music. I think rappers trying to outdo one another is good for hip hop as a whole because it pushes artists to put their best work out there and ultimately it’s the fans who benefit.
Kendrick is definitely on the outside. Chilling in Brooklyn, probably adapting his last album for the Broadway stage.
PLEASE do a whole episode on Camilla Cabello. I want to see them watch old fifth harmony performances 😂
lmfaoooo
I'm not a fan of Future, I am a fan of Kendrick, I listened to other songs on the album and they are fun but again It's just not for me. I think there's a big future audince and from what i've seen they like the album but I don't think they are album people, probably put the best ones in a big playlist and just vibe all summer they aren't going back to the album over and over. I as a Kendrick fan, and a fan of dumb rap beefs have listned to this song a bunch and have loved watching videos about it and who will respond what does it all mean why. All of that is far more interesting than whatever Future is mumbling about imo.
CC section that was fatiguing and messy.🤔
I love it though, think it's very engaging and interesting. Love to hear more though.
That section was very revealing.
Is this who new york times has on staff as "music" critics? Lol you guys comment primarily on media news, lyrics, story and some metaphors. I don't hear anything about vocal techniques, complex harmonies, complicated instrumentation and melodies, or anything deep with the music lol your conversations and thoughts on it are so irrelevant to the music. You guys need to go watch some other actual high level musicians review and hear how they discuss the musicianship. Go take notes! NEW YORK TIMES, YALL NEED TO HIRE SOME NEW REAL MUSIC CRITICS LOL
I concur!
A very long-winded way of saying they hate the album. A lot of talking going on, as Beyonce says. Yawn.
yes, this is a pop music/culture criticism podcast, the whole point is to talk ...
You need to re-watch, that's not what they said at all.
Please talk about the new knxworries (Anderson paak and knxwledge) next episode!
THEY MADE ZERO HIGH LEVEL, DEEP CRITIQUES THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MUSIC. THESE GUYS ARE FRAUDS 😂
You guys make the point: it's Black roots music.
So much condescension, hectoring, and refusals to acknowledge that the music IS actually good. The fact that it generates discourse does not mean it's not structurally and sonically good. Very shallow commentary...you both are not equipped to critically engage this AT ALL.
"LebronJamesification" lol
On paper it's a great album but it evokes no feelings for me whatsoever...sadly.
y'all may know about music, but you just ate some poison and it's not funny. Learn about the harm of sugar and processed junk/poison. Great review tho!
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Chilleeeeee disappointed…. Huggeeeee cultural disconnect. I would have at least entertained how both albums act 1 and act 2 talk about the use of drugs in a subtle way, why is Beyonce not screaming about it as much as her blackness, why is she druggin us to talk about drugs, bigger wider themes, also at least critique her relationship with capitalism as a black elite - (this part you need a black person within your discussions because your pov will be limited ) why did she need to make a lot of noise and advertising for this album, why is she outside, why is she talking to us more? Why does she need us as she races towards billion dollar status? Why does she never critique capitalism… what her relationship to it and her husband? She’s amazing at drip feeding freedom…
The whole AOTY Grammy conversation is exhausting, as bad as the BTS army going on and on about the Grammy’s. It’s as if the prince of the kingdom gets up and says “the Princess has all the jewels but one, why haven’t you given her the main jewel, y’all have to think about that”. And the rest of the court looks around, each holding one or no jewels, and wonders wtf.
The real issue is that Beyonce makes these maximalist albums with one thousand touchpoints, and dozens and dozens of collaborators, any one of which could be excised should they say the wrong word about Bey at the wrong time, because losing one collaborator is not a big thing in the context of dozens and dozens. She is the important one, no one else. She is also known behind the scenes as the queen of “change a word get a third”. And very quietly, for both reasons, the musicians who vote for the Grammys, the ones who are just earning a living, are voting with their feet that that is not how they would want to be treated.
Putting out the third maximalist album with the same thing going on isn’t changing tack. It just might be the only good album this year and win AOTY that way, but I don’t think it will move the quiet majority. If she had put out a true singer-songwriter 10-track album with only 2 or 3 songwriters and 1 producer and 1 carefully curated and clever duet, like an old fashioned album, THAT would be completely different for Beyonce, maybe more voters would sit up and take notice.
As for the album, I got real tired of all the smoothed sung and melodyned harmonies by the third time the multiple producers went to the same effect. There are a few good songs in the album, the duets are nice, but the remaining 18-some songs could have been pruned by half or more without missing them. There is not much clever underlying songcraft going on, but a shed load of clever additions, layers, samples, and production values, which is a shiny toy collage for a lot of listeners. Fine.
This sounds like a pretentious intellectual extremely rebelling at an resource-based album but not considering how hard it would be to coordinate all these different materials and features into whole harmonious totality which certainly requires years of practice. All these similiar ststements could be really exhausting to me as well.
Please go and listen again and take some lessons from the album. I promise the time is too short to be stubborn
Prince’s song craft was otherworldly and even he couldn’t win album of the year with his outstanding catalogue. There’s always an excuse when it’s obvious the Grammy higherarchy just doesn’t want to give her the AOTY AWARD! It’s like she’s being punished for winning the most Grammys. They told Prince he was to ambitious!🤔🧐
It's as if you are begging for mediocrity. 😂
Please never speak about rap music ever again. How did I stumble on this video and just hate it the entire time
Stay bitter
Pretty sure Larry won’t mind if y’all don’t blue @sartoriallyinc on the hyperpop meme 😂
Are these 2 even critics?? All they are questioning have already been answered by Beyoncé herself and the music speaks for itself.. the album had a taste of all genres… she is show casing Black Country and how it started.. you are basing your country music to white wash country. I hope you don’t have a degree in music because you missed the whole point of CC
Sit down and tweet about it
Not all music critique has to be boiled down to technique and degrees or whatever. I feel like they articulated how they felt quite well. You can disagree obviously but to shun it with you're not qualified doesn't serve anyone.