theartofphotography.tv/episode... In this episode we'll look at Ansel Adams' Zone System and how it was traditionally developed to effect the range of a black and white negative.
I don’t know if it’s coming across in the video that “placing shadows on Zone III” means underexposing by -2 EV stops from the measured spot metered value of the shadows (which spot meter gives exposure values to expose those shadows as middle 18% gray). Otherwise they will come out gray. N+1 or 2 (pushing) or N-1 or 2 (pulling) during film development is expansion or contraction of tonal range (pushing=expansion, pulling=contraction). I hope this helps clarify it for some people.
The Zone System gives a photographer -if we can compare him or her to a composer- the possibility to "hum the tune before writing the music". Ansel's (and Fred Picker's) simple, elegant gift to photographers, via the The Zone System, was to give us predictability and thereby control and the possibility to more accurately imagine (visualize) the result of an image even before taking the photo. If I can add a word on the technique:: it helps beginners to more quickly understand the Zone System if they first understand that normal black and white film has about a 7 f/stop capacity for recording the ”shades" from pure white to pure black. (Note: The original Zone System divided this black-to-white range into 9 shades -or, “zones”-, with pure black being zone I and pure white, zone IV. The Roman numerals keep the ZS distinct from other photographic nomenclature and thereby avoid confusion.) As light meter's job is to provide exposure information that will result in an average shade between pure white and pure black: in other words, GRAY. To repeat: WHATEVER a light meter “sees” within its measuring field, it wants to make it GRAY. Period. That means if you photograph a white value -and develop and print it normally (after having first tested your materials and procedures to establish your own standards!)- you'll get gray. The same with a black value: you'll get gray -which, being at the middle of the scale between black to white, is logically zone V (five). Summary: A light meter reading = zone V on the zone scale. .Knowing this, you could "re-position" zones to suit your visualised photograph, first, just by varying your exposure: If you want a white value in the scene to end up white in the print -and NOT gray-, you'd simply ’move’ zone V up to, say, zone VII (if that’s the 'shade' of white you want), just by counting the zone difference (two zones) and opening-up your lens diaphragm in the equivalent number of f/stops (two stops). That’s almost all that’s to it. However . . . In the above example, we’ve ’slid’ the whole scale up, two zones: zone V is now zone VII, but now -what would normally be zone VII has been placed on zone IX- the max recording capacity of our film. Above this point is overexposure and loss of all detail … and unfortunately, what would normally be zone IX in our photo is now completely knocked-off the scale by two stops. So, your second Zone System control film development. Why? Film development has more effect on the highlights than the shadows, so the shadows won’t lose the same two stops that the highlights will. Therefore you can simply reduce development of the film by the equivalent of two stops (as pre-determined in your establishment of standards, as mentioned above). In ZS terminology this is called “normal/minus”, or ’N-‘ development. In the opposite direction (increasing contrast) it’s called ‘N+”. In the above example, you would give the film “N- 2” development, which would help contain the highlights within the normal printing range of the film. The Zone System helps you create a negative that is not only easier to print, but -more importantly- one which corresponds more closely with the image you visualised before you even wrote the music -uh- snapped the shutter!
Using your example, so when we use N-2 development, does the white value we put in zone 7, drop back to zone 5? doesn't that defeat the purpose of our first step, exposing the negative so zone 5 moves up to zone 7?
@@danielhuang2488 @Daniel Huang Hi Daniel, In your example, why would you place zone V on zone VII, and then develop the film to return it to zone V? I mean, perhaps there are some technical reasons or advantages for doing this that don't immediately come to mind, but I think that normally in this case, you'd just shoot the scene, "straight' (zone V for zone V) and just develop normally. But if I understand the nature of your confusion, perhaps it'll help you to remember, as I mentioned above, that, "Film development has more effect on the highlights than the shadows, so the shadows won’t lose the same two stops that the highlights will". Hope this helps.
Excellent. But I think you have a typo in your explanation. In the original zones scale pure Black is zone 1, as you said, but pure White is zone 9, and not zone IV, which is light gray. But, beside field exposure, development, there is the last step, the Printing process, to achieve a print as previsualized (choice of paper, filter in your enlarger, exposure, dodging and burnind)..that's for the puristes.Unfortunatly I don't own a darkroom. I wish I had one. I will have to scan my negatives and post process digitally, which I hate..we'll see.
@@roiloubia4483 Thanks, Roi. First, you're right: 9, as a Roman numeral, is iX, not IV. Forgive my dyscalculia (seriously). Secondly, I don't find it a "sin" to carry out your visualization as a digital print rather than a "wet", silver-gelatin one. In fact, I believe that Zone System principals and techniques can also work for digital photography.
Excellent video. I remember taking a community ed class on the zone system back in the 80s. The guy who taught it was in the art department of a local university. He had learned it at a workshop taught by Adams. At the last class he brought in six prints he purchased from Adams at the workshop. My memory is that he paid $25 each for them. Nice retirement nest egg if he ever sold them. Still have my Pentax spot meter with the little sticker Fred Picker sold that you put on it to show you the individuals zones.
Thanks Ted! I see I forgot or didn't realize that the meter would place the value at zone v. I don't know about the Pentax meter either. Zone vi used to do conversions on them and that is why I brought that up. Thanks again.
Very cool video. Having read a book on black&white digital photography recently where the author exposed for zone 7 highlights, perhaps checking for 5's mid-greys, and then post-processed accordingly, it's interesting to see the process for film as pretty much the inverse to that; especially as someone very interested in film as well.
Thank you for another excellent video, Ted. I haven't got around to developing my own film yet, so rely on labs for my development. Do you think the zone system is still applicable as a metering technique, or do I really need to start developing myself to see any perceivable benefit? I meter for the shadows, but don't get much cleverer than that right now.
Thank you for all your videos which are my fav! By the way Zone System is "yes!" Invented by Ansel Adam as "a language" of a photographic sensitometry which is exsist befor Ansel Adam.
wow ... thanks a lot for this ... great starting point. Fully agree with the pre commentator, one of the best, maybe the best explanation of the zone system. Maybe this even more revivals in new monochrom versions of cameras like the new Leica Monochroms with only b/w sensors without having the ease of color channels in conversions.
Ted, I understand what you are speaking about in the zone system tutorial, but I can't seem to wrap my head around one thing. When using a spot meter which I have a couple, but they are digital meters. How through the spot meter do you determine what exposure is say zone iii and what exposure is zone v? I know on an older Pentax they converted or added the zone system to some of those. Do you have a tutorial or is there anyone describing using a spot meters for the zone system for dummies? Thx.
This is one of the most well explained principles of the zone system Painting in art is done with the same system; You use a simple 10 color palette which produces 10 frames of color; Each frame contains 2 combinations of each color. Then you’ve obtained ten frames with 50 combinations of color. Adding white to produce a column of dark graduated 5 shades from dark to light Then you’ve born 10 combinations of color with 5 shades in each row. Hence 10 rows with 5 shades or a frame of 50 colors times 10 results in 500 colors! Never met an artist with an index of 500 colors that couldn’t produce an exact replica of the subject Then you have cart blanch to express your heart away THAT IS ‘Ruebens pallet’
I could do one down the road, but I'll try and answer your question. I don't know about the Pentax zone meters. A spot meter is always showing middle grey or Zone V. If you want to make that Zone III in your exposure you need to subtract 2 stops mentally. Lets say you measure a shadow with the spot and you come up with ISO 100, 1/60 at f8. You need to darken this setup 2 stops or the shadow will be on Zone 5. To make it Zone 3, speed the shutter up or close the aperture 2 stops.
An old thread, but what the heck.: Any reflected light meter will always produce a reading that renders the target as middle grey (zone V) "middle. It doesn't know what the subject matter is, which is where the "wetware" (between our ears) comes in, when we take that value, and "place" it, say, onto Zone III (detailed shadows), by stopping down two stops. For the longest time, when i was originally trying to learn about this, I just couldn't get my head around it. It's soooo simple, but I was determined that it was extremely complicated, and quasi-mystical. In your image, once you know where/what the shadow detail reading is, you determine what your detailed highlight reading is, then measure the number of stops between them to figure out your development time(s) N, N-, N+, etc. The Pentax Zone VI spot meter was a regular Pentax spot meter, that was modified by Fred Picker's Zone VI Studios. As far as I know, internally, there were filters installed to ensure that the meter responded consistently & correctly to the B&W filters that you would screw on to the front. Secondly, a graphic label scale was applied onto the metering dial, from I to VIII, making it very easy peasy fast to take a reading, and then "place" it into the zone you wanted. It's very, very intuitive. Of course, you can perform this with any modern electronic spot meter, but the physical analog dial on the Zone VI instantly displays all of the possible shutter/aperture combinations for you to see. And even if you don't develop your own film, it's easy to separate your undeveloped negs into the N, N-1, N+1, etc, groups before visiting a pro lab, and giving them any special instructions. ie For an N-1, you'd ask them to "pull it" or "push it" one, two, etc, stops. In the analog film days, this was always the standard practice for commercial photographers shooting chromes. Even if you were 99% confident that you'd nailed the exposure, you'd shoot a number of identically exposed (rolls or sheets) of that subject, then assess fine tune the development after viewing the first batch of slides.
That video helped a great deal. My question is this... What if I'm street shooting and going from sun to shade? Or landscape shooting on a cloudy day. Thinking this thru as a type, there should be no difference what light I shoot from... The light hitting a subject sitting on a park bench will fall into a particular zone determined by the spot meter.
Not sure 100% of what he was saying, but here are some notes I took while listening that I hope will be helpful to others: Zone 3 and zone 7 are the lowest and highest zones, until the image begins to lose detail beyond these zones. Aim to be between zones 3-7, otherwise you will have to edit the image highlights. Snow easily goes to zone 9. Our eye has way more dynamic range than the 1-10 zones, so use a spot meter. N - or + 2 necessary to get proper highlights. After that, I don't know what is going on, but the egg picture looks great. Lolz.
Hi, really good video. One question, on your example of the eggs were you moved from zone 3 to 5 to soften the shadows etc what camera settings did you change to move up 2 stops?
Excellent video. Thanks for taking the time to film and edit it and of course for positing it for our benefit. Keep up the good work! Isn't the idea to have all ten zones in the photograph? Let's say you choose an area to photograph and raise its exposure 2 stops. Using a modern digital camera can you still make sure you have all the other zones present in the photo? How do you set the camera up for it? Or does it become a post processing affair? -Migs
Kind of answering myself: I'd make a bracket set or maybe HDR it and stack as necessary. I'm very curious for your recommendations. What is the best procedure to do in camera?
can i use the zone system with a 120mm roll negative (i do 5x7) or this process is only possible if you use single sheets negatives like in LF...? i am quite confuse with the zone system and would like to learn the basics and use it properly.
If you have interchangeable roll film backs, then have one for +development, one for N development and one for -development... meter, determine the subject brightness range, then attach the appropriate film back... simple :)
Most people wont have this said setup. However they can bracket by increasing or decreasing shutterspeeds at their desired aperture. Also I don not, whatsoever, agree with having everything in zones 3-7.... This makes a very bland flat scrappy disintegrating photo. If I remember correctly Ansel Adams was very adamant about needing all 10 zones for a proper exposure/picture. The best way to do this is meter your highlights (brightest part of desired frame) and record the shutter speed at your desired aperture. Then meter the darkers shadow and record the shutter speed at the same aperture. Then calculate the difference to find where zone 5 will be. For negatives you want to kinda split between zone 5 and the shadows, and for positives (including digital) you want to expose between zone 5 and zone 10. In negative images anything that is black on the image will be clear on the negatives and anything white on the negative will be black on the negative. You can almost always pull at least some detail and data out of where there's too much data or information. But you cant pull any out of where there is nothing there. Hence why you expose for the shadows on negatives and for positives and digital you expose for the highlights.
Hi Ted, still rather new to digital, but well versed in the zone system. can I ask, how would you translate that system to digital? I'm still chasing the perfect fine art print in B&W in the digital world. Thanks.
I've got a question: I understand, that you can change the zone of the highlight if you change the development time. But doesn't the zone of the shadow change too?
From teaching and experience it has been my understanding to expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. The camera working exposure sets the base density on the film and use development to control the highlight density. Has worked well for me for a long, long time. The development hardly has any effect on shadows. You can't develop what isn't in the negative. Therefore, the shadows are controlled by exposure. The developing can control the amount of highlight density. So once more, expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights.
Love you rvids. I've been out of touch with Zoneing for a while and appreciate the review. However i do have a question regarding the N-2 and N+2? You threw a random dev time of 8 min.. so what would does this be in time reduction or adding time? I think you said something 20% per stop? what does that actually shake out for time? Thanks again for posting this.
I didn't realize development time was tied into the zone system. So use a spot meter. Bring down the highlights zone by decreasing development time (or reverse). Shoot for the shadows, develop for the highlights. But what about exposure time? Did I miss you talking about that?
With the wonders of TH-cam I stumbled upon this video trying to better understand the zone system. Would it be correct to say that if you find yourself shooting high contrast scenes with roll film, and you were not developing your own film, you would be best off to try and shoot the remainder of the roll in similar contrast scenes, and then to tell the developer to “underdevelop,” meaning to “pull” process? Or the opposite if you were shooting a low contrast scene?
You forgot one thing, with push/pull development your shadows will not stay in the same density, but will shift to darker/lighter zones, and depending on the film and process used this shift can be by anywhere from one 1/2 stop to almost two... And BTW, with modern films you very rarely need to compensate as most negatives have enough latitude to cover almost anything, especially your egg example ;)
Yes I wondered about that. But pushing and pulling (N+ and N-) development will still increase or decrease contrast, as the highlights will move up or down on the zone system scale more than the shadows will. But in the modern film era I think best practice is to absolutely expose/develop to ensure the desired highlight detail is retained, and then alter contrast in the scanning process by adjusting the black point and gamma curves. Ironically the best way of doing that is to over-expose negative film relative to box speed due to the large latitude at the highlight end of such films (i.e. go for a thick negative).
I believe this is slightly different than pushing and pulling, Though similar. Pushing would be shooting 400 speed at 800 and developing as 800. This would make it more contrasty. Pulling going the opposite way. Less contrast. This however is a bit different
I need help. For school, we have to take a picture of something and the picture must have zones 2-8. We can only change either shutter speed or F values, or ISO. I'm still confused about how to make that picture. Any help?
I have 2 types of metering on my slr, Integral mode and Selective. I'm under the impression that to get the correct exposure all I have to do is focus on a subject and hold down the button which activates the meter and move the shutter speed slower or faster depending on the arrows which indicate over/under exposure. My problem is that whenever I try this, I'm either alway's over or underexposed or it say's I'm correct but I'll test the settings with the dslr and I'm way way off.
about the n+1 & n+2 development process, would it be the same process as shooting a roll box speed then pushing or pulling to get desired results. or did i just make an unnecessary comparison?
I didn't watch the video but usually It means he would meter his shadows, get the reading for the shadows. The meter would put it in zone 5. He would then place his shadows in zone 3 by underexposing 2 stops from the reading he got.
The zone system is about development time? I tried reading Ansel Adams section on the zone system from the book, The Negative, which stretches 51 pages , I was lost after about 2 pages. This video didnt help me much but I am one step closer.
tobroken1965 from what I can gather, the zone system is about metering however if you meter so the shadows have detail in them, zone III and you highlights are going to blow out, zone VIII or IX, then half the development time to keep detail in the highlights. The rest is taken care of in post
@@swingyapants Well yes, in a way. The zone system is simply splitting shades of grey evenly from black to white into 11 segments. Exactly how you do that mathematically can be a little complex, i.e. whether you work on a log or linear scale. But, you have to make sure that your light meter tallies to your film and that that tallies to your print. A good spot meter will give a reading assuming that you are pointing at a subject that is a Zone V middle grey tone. Point it at a black cat it will give you a reading (and exposure settings) that will make the cat look middle grey (over expose the scene). Point it at snow and it will give you exposure values to make the snow look grey (under expose the scene). It's a reflective light meter that just gives you an EV value without knowing what shade of grey the object you point it at is - you as the photographer have to make that judgement. You then have to know how your chosen film (with a given development) reacts to your metering and exposure (shoot a test roll to find out). And if you're making prints in a dark room, you then have to know how your chosen paper responds to your negative and your chemicals, but in the modern era most of us are scanning and not working a dark room. To summarise, a B&W film exposure of a middle grey Zone V monotone scene which has been metered with a middle grey reflective spot meter should give a nominal "Zone V" negative, which when put in an enlarger with default exposure values/development for the photo paper should give you a perfect monotone Zone V print. But in reality any variations in 1) light metering, 2) exposing/developing and 3) darkroom printing/scanning can change where a given tone in your scene will end up in the Zone System scale on your print/computer monitor.
Absolutely ! If you do a bit of googling there is some help on which colours generally belong to which zones. This is one of the benefits of the zone system as it allows you to understand exposure in colour whereas your meter only sees in gray!
Just not clear on how you "put a part of the image into a zone". Is it just development time based on a meter reading somewhere? I need some more explanation. Not sure how to translate this when metering or setting the aperture.
It is not possible to divide the scale of RGB to 11 equal zones each one is one stop different from another. One stop means that amount of light increases or decreases twice. So if pure white is 255 then one stop before will be 128 then 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2,1,0. The total amount of possible zones can not be 11 and they are not distributed equally. Normally from 0 to 32 luminance is almost black and no details are recognized. So the visible range is staring from about 32 to 255 and contains 4 stops at most.
Find a copy of Ansel Adam's book "The Negative", best in depth explanations of the Zone System. You should be able to find a copy at your local library.
A bit late but meters are designed for 18% reflectance. the average scene which means a metered area will be zone V. For a detailed shadow you will have to stop down two stops from your meter reading of the shadow to place it in Zone III. Your development time will depend on your highlights. In summary, expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights.
Thank you for the explanation, although it is still not clear to me how to assess the highlights for development? How do we know if they will be blown or not?
The detailed highlights should fall in zone VII. They will be blown out if greater than that if normal development is used. You would then have to reduce the development time. There are rough guides for that but you will have to do tests to determine which is correct for your conditions, film,developer,paper even your camera and meter settings. And you must be as consistent as possible.
The first misconception (and the very first thing to understand) is that there are NOT 10 Zones. There are actually 11. Don't believe me? Count them with your hand/fingers. 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. That is 11. People often forget to consider or account for zero when talking about (or counting) the zones. If you only had 10 zones then Zone 5 WOULD NOT fall into the middle. In fact, there would be NO MIDDLE zone.
Actually there are as many as you. For instance Ansel Adams mentions that Polaroid emulsions had a restricted range (less than 10 - 7 I think from memory) ), while some modern digital cameras have maybe 12 or more.
+ 1 ^ The point of the zone system is to assign as many zones as you wish to use. Certain films have greater tonal range than others, if you know that then you can know how much latitude you have to shoot and develop with.
If you put Zone 5 in the middle, then count back to Zero you have 5 zones. Count up to 10 you have 5 zones. In essence, Zone 5 is 18% which is "0" for all practical purposes, or your middle. It is kind of like anything else when it comes to math or numbers. You have to start at zero and go from there. In this case, zero is not zero. 5 is zero
No, there are 10 zones. Count the "To's": 0 to 1, 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 5 , 5 to 6, 6 to 7, 7 to 8, 8 to 9, 9 to 10....thus 5 is in the middle. We are talking zones, not points.
So I guess if you don't develop your own film, you are at the mercy of the processing lab? For instance if I meter zone III for shadows and the highlights are way up in zone X, there is no other way to decrease the highlights without lessening the development time? Oh wait!! Photoshop! Like your videos. Keep them coming. Very informative.
Man!! You know your shit (Stuff....It's a British saying) don't you!! I've been wondering abt 'N+1 and N-1!! Now I know :-) Seen this vid once before, Though I enjoyed it and watched with great interest, I understood more this time!! :-) I think this is one to watch over and over because a shed load of answers are all in here!!! :-)
Forgive my attempt at logic, but surely, if you drop zone 5 to zone 3 to get the blacks right, surely the highlights automatically drop 2 stops. 1 month later......ah I get it now, I just needed it explained in a slightly different was... sorry I doubted you Ted
I dont really understand how this would work on anything but sheet film? If you're using a roll of medium format with 12 exposures or lets say a roll of 35mm with 36 exposures, surely changing the development time would ruin all but a few photos? Or at least drastically change the other photos on the roll? Unless the idea is that you use the entire roll to shoot one subject in roughly the same way each time, which to me sounds like a waste of film. I think the application of the zone system must just be a lot different from the way I shoot film
Basically your pure white will be gray. Your pure black will be gray. So you adjust the exposure to put black with black zone by under exposing and white in the white zone by over exposing the white.
for me, the zone system is one of these "magic" phrases that doesn't introduce and change much in photography...over-intellectualized concept...too much theory over practice...another one is metering the scene with a light meter...do you really think in therms of whats included in "the zone system" theory before you take a photo, and after, in a darkroom ? do you calculate ? how your calculations correspond with real effects ? if you didn't know "the zone system" theory, would you take worse photos ?
Just watched this again after a number of years and I still find it's one of the best descriptions of the zone system there is
And I still don't understand anything beyond the gradient.
I don’t know if it’s coming across in the video that “placing shadows on Zone III” means underexposing by -2 EV stops from the measured spot metered value of the shadows (which spot meter gives exposure values to expose those shadows as middle 18% gray). Otherwise they will come out gray. N+1 or 2 (pushing) or N-1 or 2 (pulling) during film development is expansion or contraction of tonal range (pushing=expansion, pulling=contraction). I hope this helps clarify it for some people.
The Zone System gives a photographer -if we can compare him or her to a composer- the possibility to "hum the tune before writing the music". Ansel's (and Fred Picker's) simple, elegant gift to photographers, via the The Zone System, was to give us predictability and thereby control and the possibility to more accurately imagine (visualize) the result of an image even before taking the photo.
If I can add a word on the technique:: it helps beginners to more quickly understand the Zone System if they first understand that normal black and white film has about a 7 f/stop capacity for recording the ”shades" from pure white to pure black.
(Note: The original Zone System divided this black-to-white range into 9 shades -or, “zones”-, with pure black being zone I and pure white, zone IV. The Roman numerals keep the ZS distinct from other photographic nomenclature and thereby avoid confusion.)
As light meter's job is to provide exposure information that will result in an average shade between pure white and pure black: in other words, GRAY. To repeat: WHATEVER a light meter “sees” within its measuring field, it wants to make it GRAY. Period.
That means if you photograph a white value -and develop and print it normally (after having first tested your materials and procedures to establish your own standards!)- you'll get gray. The same with a black value: you'll get gray -which, being at the middle of the scale between black to white, is logically zone V (five). Summary: A light meter reading = zone V on the zone scale.
.Knowing this, you could "re-position" zones to suit your visualised photograph, first, just by varying your exposure: If you want a white value in the scene to end up white in the print -and NOT gray-, you'd simply ’move’ zone V up to, say, zone VII (if that’s the 'shade' of white you want), just by counting the zone difference (two zones) and opening-up your lens diaphragm in the equivalent number of f/stops (two stops). That’s almost all that’s to it. However . . .
In the above example, we’ve ’slid’ the whole scale up, two zones: zone V is now zone VII, but now -what would normally be zone VII has been placed on zone IX- the max recording capacity of our film. Above this point is overexposure and loss of all detail … and unfortunately, what would normally be zone IX in our photo is now completely knocked-off the scale by two stops. So, your second Zone System control film development. Why?
Film development has more effect on the highlights than the shadows, so the shadows won’t lose the same two stops that the highlights will. Therefore you can simply reduce development of the film by the equivalent of two stops (as pre-determined in your establishment of standards, as mentioned above). In ZS terminology this is called “normal/minus”, or ’N-‘ development. In the opposite direction (increasing contrast) it’s called ‘N+”. In the above example, you would give the film “N- 2” development, which would help contain the highlights within the normal printing range of the film.
The Zone System helps you create a negative that is not only easier to print, but -more importantly- one which corresponds more closely with the image you visualised before you even wrote the music -uh- snapped the shutter!
Holy shit… thank you so much - I also understand why my Pentax spot meter is called « v » now. I really really appreciate this comment.
Using your example, so when we use N-2 development, does the white value we put in zone 7, drop back to zone 5? doesn't that defeat the purpose of our first step, exposing the negative so zone 5 moves up to zone 7?
@@danielhuang2488 @Daniel Huang Hi Daniel, In your example, why would you place zone V on zone VII, and then develop the film to return it to zone V? I mean, perhaps there are some technical reasons or advantages for doing this that don't immediately come to mind, but I think that normally in this case, you'd just shoot the scene, "straight' (zone V for zone V) and just develop normally. But if I understand the nature of your confusion, perhaps it'll help you to remember, as I mentioned above, that, "Film development has more effect on the highlights than the shadows, so the shadows won’t lose the same two stops that the highlights will". Hope this helps.
Excellent. But I think you have a typo in your explanation. In the original zones scale pure Black is zone 1, as you said, but pure White is zone 9, and not zone IV, which is light gray. But, beside field exposure, development, there is the last step, the Printing process, to achieve a print as previsualized (choice of paper, filter in your enlarger, exposure, dodging and burnind)..that's for the puristes.Unfortunatly I don't own a darkroom. I wish I had one. I will have to scan my negatives and post process digitally, which I hate..we'll see.
@@roiloubia4483 Thanks, Roi. First, you're right: 9, as a Roman numeral, is iX, not IV. Forgive my dyscalculia (seriously). Secondly, I don't find it a "sin" to carry out your visualization as a digital print rather than a "wet", silver-gelatin one. In fact, I believe that Zone System principals and techniques can also work for digital photography.
Excellent video. I remember taking a community ed class on the zone system back in the 80s. The guy who taught it was in the art department of a local university. He had learned it at a workshop taught by Adams. At the last class he brought in six prints he purchased from Adams at the workshop. My memory is that he paid $25 each for them. Nice retirement nest egg if he ever sold them. Still have my Pentax spot meter with the little sticker Fred Picker sold that you put on it to show you the individuals zones.
Finally someone who really understands the zone system well enough to explain it clearly to others. Great tutorial, well done.
Great stuff again Ted! I definitely got some reading to do on this, but this is a great start!
Thanks Ted! I see I forgot or didn't realize that the meter would place the value at zone v. I don't know about the Pentax meter either. Zone vi used to do conversions on them and that is why I brought that up. Thanks again.
This is amazing. Never knew what it was and wonderfully explained. Plus the intro is super rad. You should bring this intro back!
Such a professional and detailed explanation! Thank you!
Best explanation of the zone system that I’ve ever heard
Thanks for posting this. It has been a big help!
The photo of the eggs is really beautiful. Have you thought of taking a shot from above?
This is a great compact explanation - I must buy Ansell's book.
I like what your doing. I watch all your videos Over and over. If you wrote a book I'd read it. Very inspiring.
This is fantastic and makes a lot sense, MORE PLEASE.
Very cool video. Having read a book on black&white digital photography recently where the author exposed for zone 7 highlights, perhaps checking for 5's mid-greys, and then post-processed accordingly, it's interesting to see the process for film as pretty much the inverse to that; especially as someone very interested in film as well.
Thank you for another excellent video, Ted. I haven't got around to developing my own film yet, so rely on labs for my development. Do you think the zone system is still applicable as a metering technique, or do I really need to start developing myself to see any perceivable benefit? I meter for the shadows, but don't get much cleverer than that right now.
Thank you for all your videos which are my fav! By the way Zone System is "yes!" Invented by Ansel Adam as "a language" of a photographic sensitometry which is exsist befor Ansel Adam.
I recall shooting with the detail highlights in zone 7 and using diluted D76 and still development to pull the shadows up into zone 3.
wow ... thanks a lot for this ... great starting point. Fully agree with the pre commentator, one of the best, maybe the best explanation of the zone system. Maybe this even more revivals in new monochrom versions of cameras like the new Leica Monochroms with only b/w sensors without having the ease of color channels in conversions.
Just discovered your video. Well done. Any videos or resource recommendations on using the digital spot meter?
Ted, I understand what you are speaking about in the zone system tutorial, but I can't seem to wrap my head around one thing. When using a spot meter which I have a couple, but they are digital meters. How through the spot meter do you determine what exposure is say zone iii and what exposure is zone v? I know on an older Pentax they converted or added the zone system to some of those. Do you have a tutorial or is there anyone describing using a spot meters for the zone system for dummies? Thx.
This is one of the most well explained principles of the zone system
Painting in art is done with the same system; You use a simple 10 color palette which produces 10 frames of color; Each frame contains 2 combinations of each color. Then you’ve obtained ten frames with 50 combinations of color. Adding white to produce a column of dark graduated 5 shades from dark to light
Then you’ve born 10 combinations of color with 5 shades in each row. Hence 10 rows with 5 shades or a frame of 50 colors times 10 results in 500 colors!
Never met an artist with an index of 500 colors that couldn’t produce an exact replica of the subject
Then you have cart blanch to express your heart away
THAT IS ‘Ruebens pallet’
I could do one down the road, but I'll try and answer your question. I don't know about the Pentax zone meters.
A spot meter is always showing middle grey or Zone V. If you want to make that Zone III in your exposure you need to subtract 2 stops mentally. Lets say you measure a shadow with the spot and you come up with ISO 100, 1/60 at f8. You need to darken this setup 2 stops or the shadow will be on Zone 5. To make it Zone 3, speed the shutter up or close the aperture 2 stops.
An old thread, but what the heck.: Any reflected light meter will always produce a reading that renders the target as middle grey (zone V) "middle. It doesn't know what the subject matter is, which is where the "wetware" (between our ears) comes in, when we take that value, and "place" it, say, onto Zone III (detailed shadows), by stopping down two stops. For the longest time, when i was originally trying to learn about this, I just couldn't get my head around it. It's soooo simple, but I was determined that it was extremely complicated, and quasi-mystical. In your image, once you know where/what the shadow detail reading is, you determine what your detailed highlight reading is, then measure the number of stops between them to figure out your development time(s) N, N-, N+, etc.
The Pentax Zone VI spot meter was a regular Pentax spot meter, that was modified by Fred Picker's Zone VI Studios. As far as I know, internally, there were filters installed to ensure that the meter responded consistently & correctly to the B&W filters that you would screw on to the front. Secondly, a graphic label scale was applied onto the metering dial, from I to VIII, making it very easy peasy fast to take a reading, and then "place" it into the zone you wanted. It's very, very intuitive. Of course, you can perform this with any modern electronic spot meter, but the physical analog dial on the Zone VI instantly displays all of the possible shutter/aperture combinations for you to see.
And even if you don't develop your own film, it's easy to separate your undeveloped negs into the N, N-1, N+1, etc, groups before visiting a pro lab, and giving them any special instructions. ie For an N-1, you'd ask them to "pull it" or "push it" one, two, etc, stops. In the analog film days, this was always the standard practice for commercial photographers shooting chromes. Even if you were 99% confident that you'd nailed the exposure, you'd shoot a number of identically exposed (rolls or sheets) of that subject, then assess fine tune the development after viewing the first batch of slides.
The eggs... It's 11 years later... You should do this video over spring us how you'd do the eggs
Can you share your thougths on Johnny Patience new blog post about the Zone system? I find his view on the Zone system quite interesting
That video helped a great deal. My question is this... What if I'm street shooting and going from sun to shade? Or landscape shooting on a cloudy day. Thinking this thru as a type, there should be no difference what light I shoot from... The light hitting a subject sitting on a park bench will fall into a particular zone determined by the spot meter.
Not sure 100% of what he was saying, but here are some notes I took while listening that I hope will be helpful to others:
Zone 3 and zone 7 are the lowest and highest zones, until the image begins to lose detail beyond these zones. Aim to be between zones 3-7, otherwise you will have to edit the image highlights.
Snow easily goes to zone 9. Our eye has way more dynamic range than the 1-10 zones, so use a spot meter.
N - or + 2 necessary to get proper highlights.
After that, I don't know what is going on, but the egg picture looks great. Lolz.
Hi, really good video. One question, on your example of the eggs were you moved from zone 3 to 5 to soften the shadows etc what camera settings did you change to move up 2 stops?
James Maden shutter speed or aperture - its been a while - don't remember which.
He increased the development time 20% and then 20% again
These videos were so good before the all the sony and fujifilm excitement
so true!!! I agree.
Thank you, very simple explanation for the ZS.
Do you think developing the film in semi-stand method can compensate N+ or N-?
Excellent video. Thanks for taking the time to film and edit it and of course for positing it for our benefit. Keep up the good work! Isn't the idea to have all ten zones in the photograph? Let's say you choose an area to photograph and raise its exposure 2 stops. Using a modern digital camera can you still make sure you have all the other zones present in the photo? How do you set the camera up for it? Or does it become a post processing affair? -Migs
Kind of answering myself: I'd make a bracket set or maybe HDR it and stack as necessary. I'm very curious for your recommendations. What is the best procedure to do in camera?
can i use the zone system with a 120mm roll negative (i do 5x7) or this process is only possible if you use single sheets negatives like in LF...? i am quite confuse with the zone system and would like to learn the basics and use it properly.
If you have interchangeable roll film backs, then have one for +development, one for N development and one for -development... meter, determine the subject brightness range, then attach the appropriate film back... simple :)
Most people wont have this said setup. However they can bracket by increasing or decreasing shutterspeeds at their desired aperture.
Also I don not, whatsoever, agree with having everything in zones 3-7.... This makes a very bland flat scrappy disintegrating photo. If I remember correctly Ansel Adams was very adamant about needing all 10 zones for a proper exposure/picture.
The best way to do this is meter your highlights (brightest part of desired frame) and record the shutter speed at your desired aperture. Then meter the darkers shadow and record the shutter speed at the same aperture. Then calculate the difference to find where zone 5 will be. For negatives you want to kinda split between zone 5 and the shadows, and for positives (including digital) you want to expose between zone 5 and zone 10.
In negative images anything that is black on the image will be clear on the negatives and anything white on the negative will be black on the negative. You can almost always pull at least some detail and data out of where there's too much data or information. But you cant pull any out of where there is nothing there. Hence why you expose for the shadows on negatives and for positives and digital you expose for the highlights.
@@CrazyIvan865 wow thank you for writing this comment, very helpful.
Hi Ted, still rather new to digital, but well versed in the zone system. can I ask, how would you translate that system to digital? I'm still chasing the perfect fine art print in B&W in the digital world. Thanks.
Is it good to have a rolleiflex?? i have one
I've got a question: I understand, that you can change the zone of the highlight if you change the development time. But doesn't the zone of the shadow change too?
Yup
He did respond
From teaching and experience it has been my understanding to expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. The camera working exposure sets the base density on the film and use development to control the highlight density. Has worked well for me for a long, long time. The development hardly has any effect on shadows. You can't develop what isn't in the negative. Therefore, the shadows are controlled by exposure. The developing can control the amount of highlight density. So once more, expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights.
Love you rvids. I've been out of touch with Zoneing for a while and appreciate the review. However i do have a question regarding the N-2 and N+2? You threw a random dev time of 8 min.. so what would does this be in time reduction or adding time? I think you said something 20% per stop? what does that actually shake out for time? Thanks again for posting this.
20% of 8 minutes =1.6
8-1.6 =6.4
I didn't realize development time was tied into the zone system. So use a spot meter. Bring down the highlights zone by decreasing development time (or reverse). Shoot for the shadows, develop for the highlights. But what about exposure time? Did I miss you talking about that?
With the wonders of TH-cam I stumbled upon this video trying to better understand the zone system. Would it be correct to say that if you find yourself shooting high contrast scenes with roll film, and you were not developing your own film, you would be best off to try and shoot the remainder of the roll in similar contrast scenes, and then to tell the developer to “underdevelop,” meaning to “pull” process? Or the opposite if you were shooting a low contrast scene?
Ted man, you gotta bring back this intro, at least on special occasions.
You forgot one thing, with push/pull development your shadows will not stay in the same density, but will shift to darker/lighter zones, and depending on the film and process used this shift can be by anywhere from one 1/2 stop to almost two...
And BTW, with modern films you very rarely need to compensate as most negatives have enough latitude to cover almost anything, especially your egg example ;)
Yes I wondered about that. But pushing and pulling (N+ and N-) development will still increase or decrease contrast, as the highlights will move up or down on the zone system scale more than the shadows will.
But in the modern film era I think best practice is to absolutely expose/develop to ensure the desired highlight detail is retained, and then alter contrast in the scanning process by adjusting the black point and gamma curves. Ironically the best way of doing that is to over-expose negative film relative to box speed due to the large latitude at the highlight end of such films (i.e. go for a thick negative).
I believe this is slightly different than pushing and pulling, Though similar. Pushing would be shooting 400 speed at 800 and developing as 800. This would make it more contrasty. Pulling going the opposite way. Less contrast. This however is a bit different
How about colour? What's his relation with zones system (if there's any)?
Did you ever do a sequel to this video? Especially for digital?
right, were are the other videos for digital photographer?
I need help. For school, we have to take a picture of something and the picture must have zones 2-8. We can only change either shutter speed or F values, or ISO. I'm still confused about how to make that picture. Any help?
I have 2 types of metering on my slr, Integral mode and Selective. I'm under the impression that to get the correct exposure all I have to do is focus on a subject and hold down the button which activates the meter and move the shutter speed slower or faster depending on the arrows which indicate over/under exposure. My problem is that whenever I try this, I'm either alway's over or underexposed or it say's I'm correct but I'll test the settings with the dslr and I'm way way off.
Have you learned how to correct this yet?
I always shoot in manual to avoid this. Or even try some exposure blending.
Where can I find the continuation of this topic? Well done
right, were are the other videos for digital photographer?
Awesome & Thanks :)
about the n+1 & n+2 development process, would it be the same process as shooting a roll box speed then pushing or pulling to get desired results. or did i just make an unnecessary comparison?
6:42 What do you mean by "placing my shadows on zone 3" with your spot meter?
I didn't watch the video but usually It means he would meter his shadows, get the reading for the shadows. The meter would put it in zone 5. He would then place his shadows in zone 3 by underexposing 2 stops from the reading he got.
*Meters shadows
*F2 1/125 ISO100 is EV0 (Zone V)
*Exposes for F4
*Shadows now in Zone III
The zone system is about development time? I tried reading Ansel Adams section on the zone system from the book, The Negative, which stretches 51 pages , I was lost after about 2 pages. This video didnt help me much but I am one step closer.
tobroken1965 from what I can gather, the zone system is about metering however if you meter so the shadows have detail in them, zone III and you highlights are going to blow out, zone VIII or IX, then half the development time to keep detail in the highlights. The rest is taken care of in post
@@swingyapants Well yes, in a way. The zone system is simply splitting shades of grey evenly from black to white into 11 segments. Exactly how you do that mathematically can be a little complex, i.e. whether you work on a log or linear scale. But, you have to make sure that your light meter tallies to your film and that that tallies to your print.
A good spot meter will give a reading assuming that you are pointing at a subject that is a Zone V middle grey tone. Point it at a black cat it will give you a reading (and exposure settings) that will make the cat look middle grey (over expose the scene). Point it at snow and it will give you exposure values to make the snow look grey (under expose the scene). It's a reflective light meter that just gives you an EV value without knowing what shade of grey the object you point it at is - you as the photographer have to make that judgement.
You then have to know how your chosen film (with a given development) reacts to your metering and exposure (shoot a test roll to find out).
And if you're making prints in a dark room, you then have to know how your chosen paper responds to your negative and your chemicals, but in the modern era most of us are scanning and not working a dark room.
To summarise, a B&W film exposure of a middle grey Zone V monotone scene which has been metered with a middle grey reflective spot meter should give a nominal "Zone V" negative, which when put in an enlarger with default exposure values/development for the photo paper should give you a perfect monotone Zone V print. But in reality any variations in 1) light metering, 2) exposing/developing and 3) darkroom printing/scanning can change where a given tone in your scene will end up in the Zone System scale on your print/computer monitor.
Can this zone system be applied to color 35mm photography ?
Absolutely ! If you do a bit of googling there is some help on which colours generally belong to which zones. This is one of the benefits of the zone system as it allows you to understand exposure in colour whereas your meter only sees in gray!
What is the name of the book by John Blakemore?
did you ever find out?
What is the book title by John Blakemore that you recommend?
John Blakemores’s black and white photography workshop
Just not clear on how you "put a part of the image into a zone". Is it just development time based on a meter reading somewhere? I need some more explanation. Not sure how to translate this when metering or setting the aperture.
How Is N-1/N+1 different from pushing and pulling?
Good video :)
What I think is forgotten in most presentations: When you measure in Zone III, close 2 stops before exposing (Zone V).
True. I always miss this, too.
It is not possible to divide the scale of RGB to 11 equal zones each one is one stop different from another. One stop means that amount of light increases or decreases twice. So if pure white is 255 then one stop before will be 128 then 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2,1,0. The total amount of possible zones can not be 11 and they are not distributed equally. Normally from 0 to 32 luminance is almost black and no details are recognized. So the visible range is staring from about 32 to 255 and contains 4 stops at most.
Where are the other videos where you put this into practice?
right, were are the other videos for digital photographer?
@@brpons You don't really need this for digital.
@lennoxmcdough the shadows develop first during the chemical process. You'll see a contrast difference but they don't shift enough.
0:05 i was thinking i'm watching DigitalRevTV xD
Incredibly put
Yes. But the contrast is different in all your examples - this is what dictates changing the time to get the contrast balance you desire.
He mentions a book by John Blaitborne ?? I can’t find it ..??
Could you please give the name of the Author at 4:01?
it's john blakemore
Find a copy of Ansel Adam's book "The Negative", best in depth explanations of the Zone System. You should be able to find a copy at your local library.
Completely over my head.
If you metre your shadows, how do you know in wich zone they are?
A bit late but meters are designed for 18% reflectance. the average scene which means a metered area will be zone V. For a detailed shadow you will have to stop down two stops from your meter reading of the shadow to place it in Zone III. Your development time will depend on your highlights.
In summary, expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights.
eminusipi Thanks dude(ette?), better late than never. A very usefull tip! :)
Thank you for the explanation, although it is still not clear to me how to assess the highlights for development? How do we know if they will be blown or not?
The detailed highlights should fall in zone VII. They will be blown out if greater than that if normal development is used. You would then have to reduce the development time. There are rough guides for that but you will have to do tests to determine which is correct for your conditions, film,developer,paper even your camera and meter settings. And you must be as consistent as possible.
After you meter the shadow areas, meter the highlights and see what zone they are in, related to your shadows.
The first misconception (and the very first thing to understand) is that there are NOT 10 Zones. There are actually 11. Don't believe me? Count them with your hand/fingers. 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. That is 11. People often forget to consider or account for zero when talking about (or counting) the zones. If you only had 10 zones then Zone 5 WOULD NOT fall into the middle. In fact, there would be NO MIDDLE zone.
Actually there are as many as you. For instance Ansel Adams mentions that Polaroid emulsions had a restricted range (less than 10 - 7 I think from memory) ), while some modern digital cameras have maybe 12 or more.
+ 1 ^
The point of the zone system is to assign as many zones as you wish to use. Certain films have greater tonal range than others, if you know that then you can know how much latitude you have to shoot and develop with.
If you put Zone 5 in the middle, then count back to Zero you have 5 zones. Count up to 10 you have 5 zones. In essence, Zone 5 is 18% which is "0" for all practical purposes, or your middle. It is kind of like anything else when it comes to math or numbers. You have to start at zero and go from there. In this case, zero is not zero. 5 is zero
No, there are 10 zones. Count the "To's": 0 to 1, 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 4 to 5 , 5 to 6, 6 to 7, 7 to 8, 8 to 9, 9 to 10....thus 5 is in the middle. We are talking zones, not points.
Or, hire an assistant. They carry all the gear, set the lights, load the Hassy, etc.
Very good video, thank you
I use the step System developed by Steve Karl which he discovered the 35 mm cameras can only detect 7 shades of grey.
So I guess if you don't develop your own film, you are at the mercy of the processing lab? For instance if I meter zone III for shadows and the highlights are way up in zone X, there is no other way to decrease the highlights without lessening the development time? Oh wait!! Photoshop! Like your videos. Keep them coming. Very informative.
I say I am agree with Yair Braum
(04:32) FADE TO BLACK. . . . . hell yeah\w/
Man!! You know your shit (Stuff....It's a British saying) don't you!! I've been wondering abt 'N+1 and N-1!! Now I know :-) Seen this vid once before, Though I enjoyed it and watched with great interest, I understood more this time!! :-) I think this is one to watch over and over because a shed load of answers are all in here!!! :-)
Forgive my attempt at logic, but surely, if you drop zone 5 to zone 3 to get the blacks right, surely the highlights automatically drop 2 stops. 1 month later......ah I get it now, I just needed it explained in a slightly different was... sorry I doubted you Ted
I dont really understand how this would work on anything but sheet film? If you're using a roll of medium format with 12 exposures or lets say a roll of 35mm with 36 exposures, surely changing the development time would ruin all but a few photos? Or at least drastically change the other photos on the roll? Unless the idea is that you use the entire roll to shoot one subject in roughly the same way each time, which to me sounds like a waste of film. I think the application of the zone system must just be a lot different from the way I shoot film
He literally did explain the limits of push/pull on roll film Vs sheet film
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Basically your pure white will be gray. Your pure black will be gray. So you adjust the exposure to put black with black zone by under exposing and white in the white zone by over exposing the white.
Note on the wikipedia article; Why won't you contribute to it?
It´s 11 zones.
0 to 10, 1 to 11, what does it matter
@@painovoimaton 0 to 10 is also 11 zones.
@@Stanlyok My point exactly. The video saying it is 0-10 is functionally no different from the 8 year old comment implying it's 1-11.
@@painovoimaton I think the original comment refers to 3:25 where Ted accidentally says "there are 10 zones" =)
How come credit is never given to it first inventor " Mortensen " 10 years before Adam's Ansel copy and expanded it do too newer films
Thank you for giving credit to the real man who deserves the real credit.
So... what is zone system again?? lol
a good, cheap spot meter anybody?
But... it's 11 zones, isn't it?
I thought this was going to explain the 8 levels of Tim and Erics Zone Theory.
Stand developing
sounds like its easier to just bracket a shot.
Doesn't help much, because with bracketing you only change sensitivity, not contrast. Contrast adjustment is by development.
There are 11 zones if you count 0
Ted,
Ten zones? 0-10 = 11
for me, the zone system is one of these "magic" phrases that doesn't introduce and change much in photography...over-intellectualized concept...too much theory over practice...another one is metering the scene with a light meter...do you really think in therms of whats included in "the zone system" theory before you take a photo, and after, in a darkroom ? do you calculate ? how your calculations correspond with real effects ? if you didn't know "the zone system" theory, would you take worse photos ?
Wow you talk fast! can you please slow down a bit as it gets confusing. Need time to process what youre saying. cheers.
Rewatch the video like the rest of us, dude
35 mm cameras can only detect 7 shades of grey.
Not true. Film is film.
Que porra eh essa
This is a technical subject, the understanding of which is not aided by your decision to narrate at Mach speed! 😮
There is no zone X or zone 10. The zones are 0 to 1X. If you use zone X (10) it makes eleven zone.
This app has been hacked in by Lori parks the National Action Network she's a sick person stalker