Thanks for watching! Please hit "like" and share the video around - it helps me out SO much. And if you enjoy my videos please consider supporting the channel: Patreon ➜ www.patreon.com/dandavisauthor My books ➜ amzn.to/3xngwz5 Check out this accompanying Patreon-exclusive post on the high hunter-gatherer ancestry in some of the Tollense Valley DNA samples: www.patreon.com/posts/hunter-gatherers-56604642
Hey brother, old subscriber with a new profile. I like how you work through the microcosm of the details. Not looking at a culture from outside, but from the singular individual perspective. It is refreshing.
@@ajithsidhu7183 yes I will do. You ask this on every video and I said yes last time! I will get to it eventually. There are things to say about how sporting events emerged from war training and also from funeral games.
When I went to school some 50 years ago, the Bronze Age was portrayed as a Middle Eastern thing. Even the Mycenaeans were not mentioned except as a half-mythical past referenced by the Iron Age Greeks. I grew up believing Europeans were fur-clad reindeer hunters until the light of civilization spread from Egypt via Greece and Rome to finally reach Western Europe. Today we know that the real prehistory of Europe was far more complex and fascinating. Or at least some of us know, and hopefully with the help of your videos, some more people will get a glimpse of a world almost lost in the fog of time.
There was a religious complex (they think) uncovered in the Hebredees that was much bigger than what the local community would have needed so they're presuming it was some sort of ancient Vatican type place for a religion that is long forgotten. The "all roads lead to Rome" attitude in history and archaeology did not do northwest Europe any favours and has been ignored or treated with derision. I think there are worlds (as it were) yet to be found not unlike the Hittites and Fertile Crescent civilizations.
Do you mean the Ness of Brodgar site? That is an amazing Neolithic centre - probably extremely influential in Britain and beyond. I talk about it a bit in the Neolithic Britain video.
@@DanDavisHistory That's the one, I'm given to believe it is easily accessible by boat which was the most efficient form of travel then so could have been used by multiple north European countries. Gets the old grey matter in motion!
I watched a documentary about this site and never thought about it again. You have given it more life in 20 minutes than those attempting to make an entire documentary about it were able to. Thank you for your channel and keep up the amazing work!
I second this opinion. Great video where you really manage to bring to light how modern archaeology gives us clues to how much we can interpret this event. The introduction alone with a possible interpretation was gripping.
@@DanDavisHistory you forget to take some very interesting things into consideration, a very important fact. Bronze swords, axes and spears have been pulled out ofDanish borgs from that time period, and not just small amount but in large quantaties. To me that point toward that the victors came from the north. That also match with roman and other germani accounts, namely that the strongest tribes came from north.
@@18Bees i just would be more comfortable 60-70 meters farther away from my enemy than he can reach especially since I would not want to be wearing 15-20kg of bronze hoplite armor in that swampy ground
@@18Bees kinda my point! , the only death in the SCA that I am aware of was a guy in a rural Pennsylvania tournament ( war ) who fell down in one of those 13th century French crow beak helmets and drowned because he had nailed himself to the bottom of a mud puddle.
I was already impressed with the video but my approval skyrocketed when you went on and on about what we DON'T KNOW and MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN WRONG after telling us what we DO KNOW. That is rare to see and thus precious. I stand a new subscriber, and probably a Patreon shortly.
This video is like a dream for me. I've been fascinated by Bronze Age trade routes for more than 20 years, and this is the most comprehensive explanation of routes and items traded that I've seen or heard of so far. I guess I have to check out the sources and read a few more books. Thanks for putting this together. Love it.
During Bronze age Danish Gudme were directly connected with local authorities in Hungary, despite several thousands kilometres of distance. Metallurgy has proven similarities from excavations.
It’s the obscurity of it all that gets me, I can imagine chieftains on both sides promising immortal glory and eternal veneration for their men if they win. Now we don’t even know who they are
and it was like that for tens of thousands of years before we have written history. pretty insane to think about. when you look at castles whose ruins are basically just rubble after 2k years.
@@salamandress nothings changed really, people like to think technology and humanism have made us better but outside wealthy countries everything is still pretty much the same
Yeah there are so many possible interpretations and doing archeology takes a long time. It's difficult here too because so much is underwater. I hope they continue to get funding to do the work though.
I liked that too. It's a much more trustworthy style of presentation so I left feeling like I got a solid education on the topic. Plus the mystery of it all is engaging in its own right. No matter what these people were like, safe to say they had a whole host of strange myths, superstitions, beliefs, rituals and habits that wouldn't make any sense without one of them explaining it. Doubt we'll ever get to a real understanding of something that far gone without a written record but it's very interesting to speculate.
Fascinating, it shows that Early Europe was a fluid, ever changing world back then even before recorded history was collected. It could make a nice TV series if more details were available.
The Nordic Bronze Age persisted for a continuous 1300 years, and survived the Bronze Age Collapse of the 13th century BC -- which witnessed the destruction of every major civilized center in the more "fluid" south with the space of 50 years -- for 700 years. It was in the context of that great collapse that the Tollense Battle took place in. It was likely a (motley) host moving up from the south looking to penetrate the wealthy (amber) and stable and more homogeneous Northlands.
@@drewskij2175 Apparently there's a prequel coming ... something about dragons ... maybe in the last episode the ladies will spring forward with their magical fire extinguishers ...
Love these videos Dan! Having a professional author like yourself as a presenter of history goes a long way in adding a depth of narrative that truly makes history gripping. Looking forward to the next one!
Mad respect to you Dan. You are a man to look up to. I am shocked one single individual can be so damn good at both scholarship, artistry and communication. Your name will live on, your ancestors are honoured and proud. I trully hope you are getting all the glory, gold, women and followers you deserve. Thanks for your immense contribution to the spread of knowledge among us lay folks. Your content is nothing short of a treasure. Also, your books are real page turners, I am addicted to it.
@@DanDavisHistory it is from the heart Dave. Let me ask you something: do you have experience with martial arts or the military? The way you describe fighting and tactics is not common among the wider public. It is to me one of the highlights of your writing. Not because I enjoy gore but because I have a background in both and I struggle to suspend my disbelief in that regard. I can also tell from your Q&A video that you are no nerd yourself and I wondered if you have real life experience with the reality of combat.
The battle at Alken Enge in Denmark was around the same time as this one. And it was also a well equipped army vs poor local farmers. A whole generation of local people died in that battle. They can see how many farming fields turned into thick forrest in the decades after the battle. And, we know nothing about the reasons for the battle either. Our local museum have the bones and weapons from the warriors on show.
That's great they have the artefacts in the local museum. That clash was in the Iron Age, sometime in the 1st century AD, over a thousand years after this. And the work there has helped inform some interpretations of the Tollense site. There are so many places in Denmark where the conditions help to preserve evidence. I hope that more battle sites are uncovered in future.
@@DanDavisHistory The theory is that because of the decline of the roman empire, there was a lot of unrest in Europe. The power vacuum created migrations. But it's a mystery I hope we one day can know about. It's incredible how little progress in warfare and tech there was, from the battle at Tollense to Alken 1000 years later.
@@plurplursen7172 No mystery that Germanic tribes fought other Germanic tribes. When you worship war gods and practice human sacrifice then you need battles and sacrifices.
@@wijse These people weren't speaking German. It wasn't even a language yet. They were simply being Killed by invading R1a horsemen, who entirely replaced them in this area.
@@zipperpillow I wrote Germanic tribes, not german language and i did not write the comment as commentary to the video, but as a comment for what Plur Plursen wrote about roman empire and alken (Germanic iron age battle). Read my comment again and Plur Plursens comment.
THIS. IS. FASCINATING. I've always been intrigued by ancient cultures, and I wonder often how many incredible stories they had to tell that just got lost to the flow of time. And wouldn't you know it, but I'm also writing fantasy and sci-fi! So yeah, I think I might have just stumbled across a new favorite channel. Thanks Dan! **proceeds to binge these videos with reckless abandon**
Check this out; 3:11 this flint arrowhead is descended from a tool making tradition known as Solutrean, there’s just absolutely no doubt about it. People don’t understand how difficult flint napping is, especially tiny arrowheads like this, someone HAS to teach you how to do it if you ever hope to get good enough to make something like this arrowhead, the larger knives are a bit easier to work with but the nicest ceremonial ones are an ancient tradition. I’m a little shocked it’s still being used anywhere this late in the Bronze Age, because for arrows flint is just… massively inferior to metals. You have to be so accurate to hit something that’ll get a kill with one shot, which is what you need for hunting more so than military use. This toolmaking tradition was used for over 20,000 years. This is super off topic from the video but you seem to be enthusiastic about the history of our people so I thought I’d give you a fun fact that he didn’t mention in the video.
@@DanDavisHistory Gonna look for your books. I've wanted to get back into books for a long time. Tried self-improvement, long story short not for me they cringed me. A well written novel based on one of my biggest interests in this period of time sounds like a really good idea
There is a rich full history of man that occurred before our known history. I believe the rule of ten applies. Whatever you think ancient man did, times it by at least ten. Nice video.
Great history delivery...thorough, interesting and humble. "Could be this....yet it could be that, these are the facts that we know." Thanks again, I enjoy your videos on some of the most difficult history to pin down.
I just had to subscribe. 2 video's in a row on my way to work. I usually watch 1 & then go for some quiet time. Bloody great historical imagination, well researched & at the same time humble. No academic elitism here. Love your work friend
Wooohoop had to comment before watching. So excited to have a Sunday (Pacific Northwest here) morning episode. Grabbing coffee and off to sit outside with my bees and listen to this one. Cheers.
I didn't know what you sounded like before I found this channel but I gotta say, now I hear your voice when I read your books... Awesome vids, AND books!
I would be interested to know if there are any fairy tales or old fireside stories from Northern Germany/Scandinavia that might help explain the battle. It could easily be a northern Helen of Troy style event, it would appear men from all over southern Germany gathered together to head north.
I honestly think "pre"-history has been a bit taboo in northern europe ever since the north sea got flooded. And it doesn't help that Rome devastated the southern shores of the north sea and any notable religious gathering places they heard of or came about. I suspect most evidence of this area would be random lost objects as most burial mounds would stand out like a sore thumb in the lowlands, and get looted or "purged" immediately. I sadly think the closest literary parallell to this battle would be the "Battle of the Black Gate" from Tolkiens work where northwestern myth lost the physical battle, but won the moral one against the imperialist foreigners.
There may be the possibility that mythological story of the Aesir-Vanir War mentioned in the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda and the Heimskringla might be highly mythologized remnant retelling of the battles fought in northern europe during the late bronze age collapse
@@dwdd4042 I believe Ragnarok and the loss of the Bifost Bridge is a deep race memory of the catastrophic aftermath from the Younger Dryas comet impact 12500 to 11000bce. The whole world changed, Sea levels rose 400 feet drowning much of the fertile land. Britain became a series of islands and the Baltic Sea was formed.
I love that you incorporate archaeological evidence into your fiction. I love that so much, that you make a plausible scenario out of a pile of scraps and then go on to explain it.
Yes. Europe's pre-Christian history in particular. I used to subscribe to the mindset that "Western Civilization was created based on Judeo-Christian values." Besides the fact that "Judeo-Christian" values don't and can't exist because they are contradictory value systems, I have since realized the foundations of "Western Civilization" were set LONG before either Christianity or Judaism came into being.
@@Peter-ri9ie I did 23andMe to get my Y-DNA, but there are other options if you just want to test for Y-DNA. Some commercial tests like AncestryDNA do not offer a sequenced Y Chromosome.
Great video. As a kid I loved Arnold Schwarzenegger's Conan the Barbarian movie. I know that it doesn't represent this period of time but.... To this day that's what I imagine in my head when I watch videos or read about this era of human history.
It's now been demonstrated via DNA evidence that millennia ago, Western Europe was dominated by people with black hair, brown skin, and blue eyes. Very much the way Robert E. Howard described Conan and his people the Cimmerians, though this fact wasn't known in Howard's own time. So ancient Europe was inhabited by people who looked like Conan.
You know what I love the most about your work . I have yet to hear the phrase ancient aliens , Bigfoot , or supernatural spirits were responsible . This is exactly what I wanted the history channel and the discovery channel to be but sadly as we all know, they failed us . Keep up the excellent work. Thanks.
As always fantastic Dan. So much to think about in scenarios with this much heaped evidence. The truth of the matter can never be ascertained but only snippets glimpsed.
At skanderborg in denmark they found a battlefield with I think 3000 butchered local men of all ages supposedly having met a much stronger maybe bigger army
Wonderful detailed & eloquent descriptions of our past which clearly started long before the Roman/ Green Mediterranean cultures or even the Kelts. Where is my time machine to see with my own eyes what you explain so nicely- thank you Dan
@@tygrkhat4087 I would say so. The Yamnaya appear to have spread their seed and culture over all of the peoples that you listed a millennium or two before this battle occurred.
Good video. It's refreshing to see far more questions raised than unfounded answers provided. Far too many historians, archeologists, etc. consider their work sacrosanct, and treat their theories and conjectures as gospel.
Another amazing video man please keep them coming the bronze age and Europe and Eurasia is such an under-researched and documented. But it is one of if not the most interesting to me and apparently everyone else here
What comes to my mind are the troubles the bronze age people of Europe and wider Mediterranean suffered in this period. Dissolving of trade routed you mentioned, migrations of large groups of people and abandonment of settlements. It is not odd at all to immagine entire tribes and peoples from northern Europe migrating southwards in search of a new home and territory, very possible resulting in battles and skirmishes as this one. A great video once again Mr.Davis! Always a great time learning more about this very interesting and important period of history.
even though I have heard about this event a number of times, your story made me feel that exciting feeling again that I felt the first time I heard about it! 👏
I'm incredibly glad that you went into my recommendation on the Bronze Age battle. The battle on Dołęża (Tolouse, Tollense) was propably the most important battle leading to Venedization of Europe and to pushing Sea Peoples south. I connect the battle of Tollense (Dołęża, Tolouse) with the rise of Vendi/Veneti/Vengiones/Wendisch/Antes or simply "followers of Queen Vanda/Wanda". Those peoples are ancestors of Slavs, Suavi, Balts, Illirians, Thrakians, Bretonians. Due to tradition held in Polish monastery on Jasna Góra, Queen Wanda lived c.a. 1200BC and her sit of power was some 8km east from nowadays Krakow, in nowadays eastern part of Nowa Huta, where the mound of Wanda, bridge of Wanda, stadium of Wanda and shopping mall of Wanda are located.
@@greenhorn6582 To collect facts and make consisetnt image out of them you need not only imagination, but also a lot of knowledge and this takes time and work
@@greenhorn6582 But if he wrote about Germanic / kings warriors would you not protest? According to contemporaries, the East of Europe does not exist as a politically organized structure. They transfer this thinking to the past After all, the evidence of the bottom of the battle shows the participation of the Slavs there.
@@pawewalitos3505 "But if he wrote about Germanic / kings warriors would you not protest?" I would sugest that he's got a brilliant fantasy. All we know is that there was a battle and the approximate date when this battle took place. We don't know the participants, who won/lost, the cause, the tactics, even the numbers of men or if this battle was decisive and part of a longer war campaign etc etc. And we will never know this. Hence all is pure speculation... brilliant fantasy at least.
@@greenhorn6582 I see. However, I believe that hypotheses are needed. I am an optimist and I think that it will be possible to gradually bring this event closer
Thanks for this one! I have grown tired of “this is the way it was so ask no questions” mantra. Whether it is Europe or the Americas it is obtuse, in my opinion, to stop asking questions, to stop searching, just because certain people are more worried about their reputation than discovering there is more to the story.
You've done a great documentary which displays in an eloquent and entartaining manner how much uncertainties history is about - and still how much information can be gathered with scientific method, as long as we are sincere about what the facts are, what are the guesses and what is mere speculation, as well as what research needs to be done, to know more.
It has to be asked. What was happening in this period? I know from Dartmoor and other high moorland areas the Bronze Age people moved into the valleys and low lands, this has been blamed on a change in climate. So were the people of the Tollense Valley moving for the same reason? It's more than coincidence that the fall of the Eastern Med empires, the Sea People, Troy, Tollense and the movement of people in the UK were all around the same period. As for more battle sites, there were more people on Dartmoor in the Bronze Age than there are today, I can't see those already in the lower lands accepting so many with open arms, the same elsewhere in the UK. The sites have to be there, but where? For the UK I would start in East Devon and the Somerset levels.
@@slappy8941 Too short term. That eruption was 3-400 years before the period of Tollense or any of the other things I mentioned above. The weather change in the UK and Ireland lasted long enough to form the peat bogs we have now, 2-300 years. There are independent and regional climate changes, the 'Little Ice Age' lasted some 400 years and something along these lines would be my best guess as to what was happening in Western and Eastern Europe at the time.
The end of the Tumulus and Trzciniec cultures lines up with the LBAC in the Mediterranean world. It's probable that a breakdown of society in northern Europe was one of several factors which caused a cascading effect, whereby tribes in southern France, Italy and Illyria were invaded by uprooted bands from the north, disrupting the bronze and amber trades and causing economic hardship there, forcing them to run or join with the northerners in their quest for food/plunder. This would have in turn severely disrupted the economies of Sardinia and Sicily. The main problem is that while Sardinia is rich in copper, it needs to trade with Cornwall for tin to make bronze, and the trade route is now interdicted by an endless tide of bandits. This in turn causes their economy to collapse and for people to seek food/plunder elsewhere, spreading the collapse. And now, with the European bronze trade completely disrupted, everyone in Mesopotamia starts experiencing bronze shortages and has to rely more on the Afghanistan trade routes. To add to that, the entire eastern Mediterranean is currently suffering from a bout of crop failures caused by drought, and Anatolia is suffering from a series of strong earthquakes, which weakens local defenses across the board (but especially so in the Hittite Empire). Currently, the two major empires in the region (Hitties, Egypt) have declared a truce to deal with the rising threat of the Assyrians, and the Hittites have recently concluded some kind of treaty with Wilusa (Troy). By the time the wave of bandits reaches the Aegean, pretty much everyone in the area is at war. On one side is a coalition led by Mycenae, on the other a coalition led by Wilusa. Interestingly, the Iliad records the Achaeans randomly detouring to / pillaging certain places unrelated to Troy, suggesting this was a conflict fought on many fronts. If we take the rest of the story as a somewhat distorted account of real events, it's likely that the decade-long siege of Troy (impossible for armies of that time) was actually a multi-generational conflict which flared up every so often, and eventually ended in the defeat and sack of Troy. Given this likelihood, it's entirely possible that the real Agamemnon might have actually been Menelaus's successor, avenging a slight done to his father, or they could have just been two allied kings (the Amarna letters have lots of kings referring to each other as family members as a way of denoting status, so it's possible the same convention was held in nearby Greece). Either way, everyone is at war and not in a position to stop the bandits coming out of the sea and down out of the Balkans. Greece and western Anatolia are overwhelmed, and the sea bandits set ashore and start heading west, plundering everything as they go. Along the way, many settle down in places, including the Thracians, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians, who together form one branch of the Indo-European language tree. Then the bandits reach the Levant, and shit really begins to go down. Hittite vassals in the area are all caught with their pants down and their armies hundreds of miles away, likely called away by the Hittites to fend off the Anatolian invaders. Eventually, the Hittites break down into civil war, as each prince declares his own city independent and fights the others for dominance. With bandits approaching from the west and the government broken down, the capital city of Hattusas is systematically stripped of its records and valuables and burned down by the Hittites themselves, probably because the land around it is depopulated and they see no further point in maintaining the place. In the confusion, almost all of the Levant falls to the sea bandits, who establish themselves as rulers over several dozen allied towns. They push back the Assyrians to their homeland, but are defeated by the Egyptians, who install some of them as foederati in the Levant (ex. the Philistines). In this time, minor powers like Israel and Damascus can stretch their wings without interference from the big boys. For the next four centuries, Mesopotamia and Greece sit in a Dark Age, as everyone is too weak to assert dominance and everyone is still suffering from drought, economic collapse and the presence of marauding bandits. The only power that thrives are the Assyrians, who are forced back to their homeland and adopt a series of military reforms which allow them to largely recover their power by the time of Shalmaneser III. We know very little of what goes on in Europe in the next few centuries, but we know the Liburnian people of Illyria establish a maritime empire stretching from Croatia down across both coasts of the Adriatic, before being supplanted by the Greeks in the 5th century BC. The rest of the Balkans are a chaotic mess, with major kingdoms only developing in the 6th century in Macedon and Thrace. In Italy, we see Etruscan civilization beginning to expand into the Po valley and south along the Tyrrhenian coast. In that time, they dominate the Umbrian and Sabine tribes around them culturally. By the 5th century, we see a large influx of Celts into the Po valley, and the Insubri build the city of Mediolanon (Milan). We also see Italic tribes pushing south in a local version of the _koryos_ tradition called _ver sacrum_ all the way up to Roman times, with the Brutti reaching Calabria by the 5th century BC. In Sardinia, the Nuragic civilization continues on in a much diminished form all the way up to Roman conquest. We also see the Celts expand into Spain during this time, butting up against the native Iberians, Vascones and Lusitanians.
@@hashkangaroo : While Troy is virtually guaranteed not to have been sieged continuously for the whole ~10 years of the Trojan War, I would default to assuming that at least the individuals given a major depiction did live for around the span that they are ascribed. The generational variety would instead be found within the _ages_ of the combatants, where Achilles was apparently believed to be 15 when the Trojan War began; whereas Nestor was around 70 or more and Priam died around the age of 80, both having been contemporaries of the famous Heracles.
I LOVE your videos. Not a lot of historians are willing to acknowledge prehistory. Just because most of it wasn’t written. Oral histories and myths have some truths into them. They just need to be memorable in order to be past down.
Interesting that this took place within a century preceding the "bronze age collapse", which is often blamed on invasions of people from the northern coast of the Mediterranean, ie, Europe. The development of hillforts (7:12) suggests that the local population was starting to feel crowded.
One of the ways you can gauge the violence of an era is the proportion of skeletons found with signs of violence versus those without. Another good gauge is the standardization of armaments found, both shape, composition, and relative age. The final gauge is the effectiveness of defensive armor, pieces of which are found around bodies that were never buried, this indicates an arms race and hence continuous warfare and a warrior caste
Great video, now if it happened at around the same time as the trojan war its probably not the first battle in history, correct me if I'm wrong please.
@@SithStudyI doubt it. There’s not really a temperate climate in Europe. It’s a large spectrum. Also, why would anyone care about climate? They’re all Europeans
great video! i didn't know about this site! this time period was the most significant in European history in regards to laying the foundation of genetic and cultural stock for what all Europe would be until modern times. Its the secret past just beyond the known written one. IMO i think that corded ware culture brought the horse into Europe along with a warrior culture, while metallurgy was controlled by the southeastern nation states of the time. The horse riding warriors made good capital equity through their actions, and created a demand for metal weapons. These warriors in turn merged with metallurgists to control the arms production and create a syndicate. This syndicate used economics and imperial conquest to seed the first warrior kings throughout Europe who would than conquer and impose on the local populations, and the outcome was the cultures we know later, Celts, Germans, Latins, Eutruscans, Greeks, Iberians, slavs ect. ect.
Thanks for another great video on Bronze age warfare. I really enjoy these. I was wondering when you'd do a video on the Tollense battle, it really is such an amazing site.
Cheers mate, I appreciate it. I didn't want to do a video on it, I was going to focus on other stuff but under almost every video and post people were asking for it or asking about it. So I thought I better do it.
19:45 this right here makes me want to think that one of the groups was fleeing over large distances from a superior force pillaging the region, and that they got caught at the river and were forced to fight.
Wonderful video, have re-watched it so many times like all the others. Will Herkuhlos partake in a similar one at some point or was the final battle in Thunderer inspired by it?
Thank you so much. This partly inspired the finale of Thunderer but obviously it predates it by a very long time. The nature of combat changed quite a lot between those two eras - it was becoming far more organised and professionalised by 1250 BC in a way that was not true in 2900 BC.
@@DanDavisHistory I was thinking when I read it this holiday (I recieved both books for Yule and read them in less than one week) how wonderfully you described the chaotic nature of early warfare. Braver fighers take the lead, urging their men onwards, with more joining in as they find their courage. The use of shields and "shieldwalls" was a nice touch, as is how you describe mounted warfare! More about breaking enemy moral and getting quickly into combat rather than massed cavalry charges with lances.
Dan's an amazing scholar. I can imagine he himself was a bronze age warrior who, as he lay dying on the battlefield, swore that someday he would come back and tell his descendants what happened, and 3500 years later we get blessed with this incredible student of history who educates us all about the Bronze Age, in far greater detail than we were ever taught in school! Or, as Dan himself might say ...maybe that's not what happened at all...we'll just have to keep researching and see!
Just found your channel and I enjoy how you condense the information, yet maintaining the details. I have never heard of this specific area. I can't wait to check out your other videos.
All nine of the I2a samples were I2a-M223 and all Y3672. Suggesting to me at least they were all members of the same clan or whatever. Perhaps they were the losers here or perhaps it's a sampling issue, I don't know. Of the R1b one was R1b-Z2118, one 2R1b-L51 and two were R1b-P312 And R1a-Z283 > M458 which is often called Slavic
@@DanDavisHistory Yeah, it sure sounds like a I2A clan against a coalition of R1b clans. R1a could be on either side I suppose, maybe some trader in the wrong place at the wrong time. I bet its a squabble over control of trade routes that spiraled out of control. R1b types are prowling around maybe trying to muscle in on nodes along the routes, maybe raiding and stealing stuff. I2A guys are getting more annoyed, decide they've had enough of that crap, get a bunch of their cousins together to take on these jerks. Then R1b guy brings in a bunch of his like minded associates...suddenly its a party...
@@stanleyshannon4408 they could all have been part of the same general society too. Not a "civil war" exactly but they could all come from the same general population, bolstered by more mobile warriors (mercs / aristos / guards / ect) from across Europe.
Thank you Dan excellent narrative of a fascinating piece of our prehistory. Your opening monologue reminded me of the Crispin’s day speech in Henry V. What is the source for this or did you pen it? Once again thank you for your history videos I really enjoy your revelations.
Either this is an incredibly interesting topic that I've never found before, or your low-key presentation puts forward so well what we can discover & what we can't know (or at least with certainty). Or, most likely, both. Thank you.
This is exactly what I've been looking for. I'm fascinated by the mysterious peoples of prehistory, ancient migrations and the like so I think I'm in the right place.
obsidian weapons were being used alongside firearms during the Indian wars in the 19th century. It is fascinating to think about how long certain weapon types were used.
I often think it's more of a high demand kind of situation during battles when they needed to immediately supply soldiers with weapons, kinda like WW2 Sten and Grease guns, quick, easy and cheap to make.
Well Mr Davis I have to say "Well played." After watching your channel for a bit I finally bought godborn on Audible expecting to have a nice historical fiction story set in bronze age Europe, but that's not all it is, is it? I saw the signs in the first few chapters but when the MC got his Man's name and the reveal about who the yotunan are I must say it was all a pleasant surprise I was not expecting a reimagining of "That" story but I'm not complaining, I will gladly buy the second book, and I will follow this series with great anticipation. I must say though I'm glad this time in history is getting some love, the only other bronze age story I've been able to find has been "Empires of Bronze" By Gordon Doherty.
Im so hyped, I havent even watched the vid yet but everything about Tollense is just fascinating. Thx 4 the vid in advance, Im gonna enjoy it nonetheless.
Fascinating video! On the section about socketed bronze arrowheads you mention that they were rare because of the scarcity of tin, and that most arrowheads were made of flint. I wonder how widespread were the use of copper arrowheads? Perhaps they weren't widely available as copper was kept stored for use to make bronze when tin became available. In a time when the vast majority of warriors were unarmoured perhaps copper arrowheads could've been effective. Maybe it was easier to make flint tools rather than copper ones as flint was more readily available, or the tribesmen were more proficient in their manufacture. Thanks for the video.
There is a lot of misconception about copper. Copper is a lot tougher than people realise when hammer hardened, it is not soft, as some might think. The problem is not with the copper, but rather That stone is a far better tool than most modern people are willing to give credit. It’s readily available, easily worked on the spot, with limited investment of effort and limited skill. It’s far sharper than copper, and you don’t need to sharpen it, you just knapp out a new one, when required. Copper was useful for chisels, needles, woodworking tools, etc. But for arrowheads, why? When stone is so effective and cheap?
I recently discovered your channel and I'm very impressed with the great range of resources that you bring together. Sometimes I get interested in an artifact or ancient tool or weapon and try to discover more about it but I don't get far in my research. You bring together great photos but also many layers of additional information and - most importantly - a great depth of context that is usually missing from written articles, photos and the like. Great work, Dan!
Very nicely done! I like the way you show the actual battlefield and posit how it could have happened in a nice narrative. But then you fill in the pleasant hypothesis with the info about the people and finds, and the questions that real historians and scientists should ask. Hope to see more like this!
Thanks for watching! Please hit "like" and share the video around - it helps me out SO much.
And if you enjoy my videos please consider supporting the channel:
Patreon ➜ www.patreon.com/dandavisauthor
My books ➜ amzn.to/3xngwz5
Check out this accompanying Patreon-exclusive post on the high hunter-gatherer ancestry in some of the Tollense Valley DNA samples: www.patreon.com/posts/hunter-gatherers-56604642
Please do one how did bronze age era people.train for war
Hey brother, old subscriber with a new profile. I like how you work through the microcosm of the details. Not looking at a culture from outside, but from the singular individual perspective. It is refreshing.
@@ajithsidhu7183 yes I will do. You ask this on every video and I said yes last time! I will get to it eventually. There are things to say about how sporting events emerged from war training and also from funeral games.
Great storytelling. Each one is better than the last. Thank you.
@@pasquinomarforio thank you very much.
When I went to school some 50 years ago, the Bronze Age was portrayed as a Middle Eastern thing. Even the Mycenaeans were not mentioned except as a half-mythical past referenced by the Iron Age Greeks. I grew up believing Europeans were fur-clad reindeer hunters until the light of civilization spread from Egypt via Greece and Rome to finally reach Western Europe. Today we know that the real prehistory of Europe was far more complex and fascinating. Or at least some of us know, and hopefully with the help of your videos, some more people will get a glimpse of a world almost lost in the fog of time.
Thank you.
There was a religious complex (they think) uncovered in the Hebredees that was much bigger than what the local community would have needed so they're presuming it was some sort of ancient Vatican type place for a religion that is long forgotten. The "all roads lead to Rome" attitude in history and archaeology did not do northwest Europe any favours and has been ignored or treated with derision. I think there are worlds (as it were) yet to be found not unlike the Hittites and Fertile Crescent civilizations.
Well said.
Do you mean the Ness of Brodgar site? That is an amazing Neolithic centre - probably extremely influential in Britain and beyond. I talk about it a bit in the Neolithic Britain video.
@@DanDavisHistory That's the one, I'm given to believe it is easily accessible by boat which was the most efficient form of travel then so could have been used by multiple north European countries. Gets the old grey matter in motion!
I watched a documentary about this site and never thought about it again.
You have given it more life in 20 minutes than those attempting to make an entire documentary about it were able to.
Thank you for your channel and keep up the amazing work!
Thank you, great to hear that.
I second this opinion. Great video where you really manage to bring to light how modern archaeology gives us clues to how much we can interpret this event. The introduction alone with a possible interpretation was gripping.
@@chubbymoth5810 thanks! I'm never sure about doing those kinds of intros because I expect they put some people. But I'm glad you enjoyed it.
tv documentaries are often far less informative and interesting than a youtube video on the same topic, that is 5 times shorter
@@DanDavisHistory you forget to take some very interesting things into consideration, a very important fact. Bronze swords, axes and spears have been pulled out ofDanish borgs from that time period, and not just small amount but in large quantaties. To me that point toward that the victors came from the north. That also match with roman and other germani accounts, namely that the strongest tribes came from north.
Definitely one of my pre battle thoughts would be “I’d rather die by the sword than be clubbed by that bloody Shillelagh!”
I’d rather live by the bow than die by the sword.
@@philvanderlaan5942 the ancient sniper?
@@18Bees i just would be more comfortable 60-70 meters farther away from my enemy than he can reach especially since I would not want to be wearing 15-20kg of bronze hoplite armor in that swampy ground
@@philvanderlaan5942 makes it difficult to breath when your face down in the swamp 😂😎
@@18Bees kinda my point! , the only death in the SCA that I am aware of was a guy in a rural Pennsylvania tournament ( war ) who fell down in one of those 13th century French crow beak helmets and drowned because he had nailed himself to the bottom of a mud puddle.
I was already impressed with the video but my approval skyrocketed when you went on and on about what we DON'T KNOW and MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN WRONG after telling us what we DO KNOW. That is rare to see and thus precious. I stand a new subscriber, and probably a Patreon shortly.
This video is like a dream for me. I've been fascinated by Bronze Age trade routes for more than 20 years, and this is the most comprehensive explanation of routes and items traded that I've seen or heard of so far. I guess I have to check out the sources and read a few more books. Thanks for putting this together. Love it.
Thank you! Very happy to read that. I'll have to make more videos about these trade routes because it is fascinating, I agree. Cheers.
That’s a fascination of mine as well, the late bronze age really was extraordinairy interconnected
During Bronze age Danish Gudme were directly connected with local authorities in Hungary, despite several thousands kilometres of distance.
Metallurgy has proven similarities from excavations.
Leslee gill. Can you recommend some books or other source about this era?
It’s the obscurity of it all that gets me, I can imagine chieftains on both sides promising immortal glory and eternal veneration for their men if they win.
Now we don’t even know who they are
and it was like that for tens of thousands of years before we have written history. pretty insane to think about. when you look at castles whose ruins are basically just rubble after 2k years.
Maybe. Or maybe they're half remembered as old gods. Who knows
It's still exactly the same today. No one gives two fucks about dead soldiers. They're still pawns in a chess game run by warlords.
@@jasonmain6398 plausible imo
@@salamandress nothings changed really, people like to think technology and humanism have made us better but outside wealthy countries everything is still pretty much the same
Such a difference between someone who is trying to give perspective and understanding versus someone who wants to get rich talking.
Well done Dan!
I like how you stress the things which we simply don't know.
Yeah there are so many possible interpretations and doing archeology takes a long time. It's difficult here too because so much is underwater. I hope they continue to get funding to do the work though.
one of the wisest realizations of socrates, and one of the most ignored
For every one thing we know about prehistory there are a hundred things we still have yet to learn, and a thousand that we will never know.
I liked that too. It's a much more trustworthy style of presentation so I left feeling like I got a solid education on the topic. Plus the mystery of it all is engaging in its own right.
No matter what these people were like, safe to say they had a whole host of strange myths, superstitions, beliefs, rituals and habits that wouldn't make any sense without one of them explaining it. Doubt we'll ever get to a real understanding of something that far gone without a written record but it's very interesting to speculate.
except for the clickbait title
Fascinating, it shows that Early Europe was a fluid, ever changing world back then even before recorded history was collected. It could make a nice TV series if more details were available.
As long as the final episode isn't a major disappointment ...
The Nordic Bronze Age persisted for a continuous 1300 years, and survived the Bronze Age Collapse of the 13th century BC -- which witnessed the destruction of every major civilized center in the more "fluid" south with the space of 50 years -- for 700 years.
It was in the context of that great collapse that the Tollense Battle took place in.
It was likely a (motley) host moving up from the south looking to penetrate the wealthy (amber) and stable and more homogeneous Northlands.
@@paulohagan3309 , we do not know how it ended, that is the problem filming something like it.
@@paulohagan3309 oh I see what you did there. Lets hope it gets corrected this time around. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@drewskij2175 Apparently there's a prequel coming ... something about dragons ... maybe in the last episode the ladies will spring forward with their magical fire extinguishers ...
I love that you are able to blend the uncertainty inherent in archaeology with storytelling. This video was very well done.
Glad you enjoyed it, cheers.
Exactly!
Love these videos Dan! Having a professional author like yourself as a presenter of history goes a long way in adding a depth of narrative that truly makes history gripping. Looking forward to the next one!
Wonderful, thank you so much.
Totally agree with you. BTW, I let you yellow jackets alone as you chew on my honeybees 🐝😎
Ramble on Wreck
Professional historians do the best of job of telling history.
Mad respect to you Dan. You are a man to look up to. I am shocked one single individual can be so damn good at both scholarship, artistry and communication. Your name will live on, your ancestors are honoured and proud.
I trully hope you are getting all the glory, gold, women and followers you deserve.
Thanks for your immense contribution to the spread of knowledge among us lay folks. Your content is nothing short of a treasure. Also, your books are real page turners, I am addicted to it.
Thank you very much, delighted to hear it.
@@DanDavisHistory it is from the heart Dave. Let me ask you something: do you have experience with martial arts or the military? The way you describe fighting and tactics is not common among the wider public. It is to me one of the highlights of your writing. Not because I enjoy gore but because I have a background in both and I struggle to suspend my disbelief in that regard. I can also tell from your Q&A video that you are no nerd yourself and I wondered if you have real life experience with the reality of combat.
TH-cam liege lord, lol.
The battle at Alken Enge in Denmark was around the same time as this one. And it was also a well equipped army vs poor local farmers. A whole generation of local people died in that battle. They can see how many farming fields turned into thick forrest in the decades after the battle. And, we know nothing about the reasons for the battle either. Our local museum have the bones and weapons from the warriors on show.
That's great they have the artefacts in the local museum. That clash was in the Iron Age, sometime in the 1st century AD, over a thousand years after this. And the work there has helped inform some interpretations of the Tollense site. There are so many places in Denmark where the conditions help to preserve evidence. I hope that more battle sites are uncovered in future.
@@DanDavisHistory The theory is that because of the decline of the roman empire, there was a lot of unrest in Europe. The power vacuum created migrations. But it's a mystery I hope we one day can know about. It's incredible how little progress in warfare and tech there was, from the battle at Tollense to Alken 1000 years later.
@@plurplursen7172 No mystery that Germanic tribes fought other Germanic tribes. When you worship war gods and practice human sacrifice then you need battles and sacrifices.
@@wijse These people weren't speaking German. It wasn't even a language yet. They were simply being Killed by invading R1a horsemen, who entirely replaced them in this area.
@@zipperpillow I wrote Germanic tribes, not german language and i did not write the comment as commentary to the video, but as a comment for what Plur Plursen wrote about roman empire and alken (Germanic iron age battle). Read my comment again and Plur Plursens comment.
THIS. IS. FASCINATING. I've always been intrigued by ancient cultures, and I wonder often how many incredible stories they had to tell that just got lost to the flow of time. And wouldn't you know it, but I'm also writing fantasy and sci-fi! So yeah, I think I might have just stumbled across a new favorite channel. Thanks Dan! **proceeds to binge these videos with reckless abandon**
Check this out;
3:11 this flint arrowhead is descended from a tool making tradition known as Solutrean, there’s just absolutely no doubt about it. People don’t understand how difficult flint napping is, especially tiny arrowheads like this, someone HAS to teach you how to do it if you ever hope to get good enough to make something like this arrowhead, the larger knives are a bit easier to work with but the nicest ceremonial ones are an ancient tradition. I’m a little shocked it’s still being used anywhere this late in the Bronze Age, because for arrows flint is just… massively inferior to metals. You have to be so accurate to hit something that’ll get a kill with one shot, which is what you need for hunting more so than military use. This toolmaking tradition was used for over 20,000 years. This is super off topic from the video but you seem to be enthusiastic about the history of our people so I thought I’d give you a fun fact that he didn’t mention in the video.
Excellent. All this history we've lost, none recorded for the ages.
Thanks. Hope it goes towards a morning brew or whatever. The stories and history are great. Would you consider longer-form podcast-type stuff?
Splendidly done! I was on the edge of my seat from start to finish!
Thanks very much! I'm a big fan of yours, that means a lot.
Really love the narration in the beginning man it's obvious you're a novelist. You have a talent for storytelling
Thank you very much.
@@DanDavisHistory Gonna look for your books. I've wanted to get back into books for a long time. Tried self-improvement, long story short not for me they cringed me. A well written novel based on one of my biggest interests in this period of time sounds like a really good idea
There is a rich full history of man that occurred before our known history. I believe the rule of ten applies. Whatever you think ancient man did, times it by at least ten. Nice video.
Whole heartedly agree. We know 1% of 1%
@@gmoney5947 if that.
The part that showed me what an incredible scholar you are, made me nearly forget the bit that showed you an awesome poet.
GREAT Video !!!
Thanks Adam.
@@DanDavisHistory I gave you a sub looking forward for more videos Dan :)) Really amazing job
Cheers mate, I hope you enjoy the other videos.
@@AdamCeladin OMG ITS THE KNIFE THROWING DUDE! RESPECT TO BOTH OF YOU!
Great history delivery...thorough, interesting and humble. "Could be this....yet it could be that, these are the facts that we know." Thanks again, I enjoy your videos on some of the most difficult history to pin down.
Okay I literally had to pause the video to say: that intro was amazing! You have crazy story telling skills.
Thanks!
I just had to subscribe. 2 video's in a row on my way to work. I usually watch 1 & then go for some quiet time. Bloody great historical imagination, well researched & at the same time humble. No academic elitism here. Love your work friend
Wooohoop had to comment before watching. So excited to have a Sunday (Pacific Northwest here) morning episode. Grabbing coffee and off to sit outside with my bees and listen to this one. Cheers.
That sounds perfect. I hope you enjoy the video (and your coffee). Cheers.
@@DanDavisHistory loved it. Tnx mate.
I didn't know what you sounded like before I found this channel but I gotta say, now I hear your voice when I read your books... Awesome vids, AND books!
Thank you very much.
Fascinating! I pass by the Tollense Valley (Tollensetal) every day on my way to work. Strange to know what happend there.
Awesome. Thanks for watching.
I would be interested to know if there are any fairy tales or old fireside stories from Northern Germany/Scandinavia that might help explain the battle. It could easily be a northern Helen of Troy style event, it would appear men from all over southern Germany gathered together to head north.
I honestly think "pre"-history has been a bit taboo in northern europe ever since the north sea got flooded.
And it doesn't help that Rome devastated the southern shores of the north sea and any notable religious gathering places they heard of or came about.
I suspect most evidence of this area would be random lost objects as most burial mounds would stand out like a sore thumb in the lowlands, and get looted or "purged" immediately.
I sadly think the closest literary parallell to this battle would be the "Battle of the Black Gate" from Tolkiens work where northwestern myth lost the physical battle, but won the moral one against the imperialist foreigners.
Ragnarok maybe?
There may be the possibility that mythological story of the Aesir-Vanir War mentioned in the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda and the Heimskringla might be highly mythologized remnant retelling of the battles fought in northern europe during the late bronze age collapse
@@dwdd4042 I believe Ragnarok and the loss of the Bifost Bridge is a deep race memory of the catastrophic aftermath from the Younger Dryas comet impact 12500 to 11000bce. The whole world changed, Sea levels rose 400 feet drowning much of the fertile land. Britain became a series of islands and the Baltic Sea was formed.
@@therealunclevanya way too far culturally and historically removed for that to make any sense imo
I think this channel needs more love, all around it's pretty excellent stuff.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
I love that you incorporate archaeological evidence into your fiction. I love that so much, that you make a plausible scenario out of a pile of scraps and then go on to explain it.
It's so refreshing to see a youtube video marking the shortcomings of the information gathered and what is needed to have a better picture. Suscribed.
There is one fact that cannot be denied. Europe's history paved way for the modern world.
Yes. Europe's pre-Christian history in particular.
I used to subscribe to the mindset that "Western Civilization was created based on Judeo-Christian values."
Besides the fact that "Judeo-Christian" values don't and can't exist because they are contradictory value systems, I have since realized the foundations of "Western Civilization" were set LONG before either Christianity or Judaism came into being.
Ever since I first read a little snippet about this site, I've been fascinated by all the possible interpretations.
Fascinating stuff, who knows what we might be able to see from Tollense in the future!
Yeah it's such an exciting discovery and there's so much more to find out.
@@DanDavisHistory My own Y-DNA is downstream of I2a, fascinating to think some of my own distant ancestors participating here.
@@edwardealdseaxe5253 from which company did you buy your test? Am thinking about doing it myself.
@@Peter-ri9ie I did 23andMe to get my Y-DNA, but there are other options if you just want to test for Y-DNA. Some commercial tests like AncestryDNA do not offer a sequenced Y Chromosome.
@@edwardealdseaxe5253 🙏🏻
Great video. As a kid I loved Arnold Schwarzenegger's Conan the Barbarian movie. I know that it doesn't represent this period of time but.... To this day that's what I imagine in my head when I watch videos or read about this era of human history.
It's now been demonstrated via DNA evidence that millennia ago, Western Europe was dominated by people with black hair, brown skin, and blue eyes. Very much the way Robert E. Howard described Conan and his people the Cimmerians, though this fact wasn't known in Howard's own time. So ancient Europe was inhabited by people who looked like Conan.
Dude, i really enjoyed that. We never really learned much about bronze age Europe in school. It was always Egypt and Greece.
You know what I love the most about your work . I have yet to hear the phrase ancient aliens , Bigfoot , or supernatural spirits were responsible . This is exactly what I wanted the history channel and the discovery channel to be but sadly as we all know, they failed us . Keep up the excellent work. Thanks.
As always fantastic Dan. So much to think about in scenarios with this much heaped evidence.
The truth of the matter can never be ascertained but only snippets glimpsed.
At skanderborg in denmark they found a battlefield with I think 3000 butchered local men of all ages supposedly having met a much stronger maybe bigger army
Have they been able to date the battle?
@@alexanderren10971st Century AD
@@stevenweaver3386 Thanks
Loved this episode and the pic of the TV show The Detectorist! Loved that show
Wonderful detailed & eloquent descriptions of our past which clearly started long before the Roman/ Green Mediterranean cultures or even the Kelts. Where is my time machine to see with my own eyes what you explain so nicely- thank you Dan
A time machine….oh if only such a thing existed… and that’s why we come to these channels.
Of course our history "clearly" begins long before Romans and Greeks.
I supposed everyone already knew that 😎
The Celts were not far behind this time period. Perhaps, some of the combattants were "Proto Celtic".
@@abrahamdozer6273 Proto Norse, Proto Slav, Proto Teuton and many other Proto tribes might have been there.
@@tygrkhat4087 I would say so. The Yamnaya appear to have spread their seed and culture over all of the peoples that you listed a millennium or two before this battle occurred.
This answers video answers some of the questions I had. It brings on so many others as well. Thank you for another outstanding video.
Good video. It's refreshing to see far more questions raised than unfounded answers provided. Far too many historians, archeologists, etc. consider their work sacrosanct, and treat their theories and conjectures as gospel.
Awesome video in such an underrated topic!!! Keep up this awesome work!!!
Thank you.
Quickly becoming a top TH-cam history channel for me
Good as always Dan, you have a talent for narration!
Thank you, appreciate it.
Ďakujeme.
Thank you very much indeed.
Brilliant Dan , I thought your intro was the start of a movie. Thanks so much for the exciting history lesson , till next time Slán 🇮🇪 ,peace all
Thanks very much Sean. I never know how many people enjoy the scene setting stuff. Cheers.
Another amazing video man please keep them coming the bronze age and Europe and Eurasia is such an under-researched and documented. But it is one of if not the most interesting to me and apparently everyone else here
What comes to my mind are the troubles the bronze age people of Europe and wider Mediterranean suffered in this period. Dissolving of trade routed you mentioned, migrations of large groups of people and abandonment of settlements.
It is not odd at all to immagine entire tribes and peoples from northern Europe migrating southwards in search of a new home and territory, very possible resulting in battles and skirmishes as this one.
A great video once again Mr.Davis! Always a great time learning more about this very interesting and important period of history.
Thank you. Yes great changes were afoot.
I think I've rewatched the Alternative analysis chapter 10 times by now
Very thought inspiring!
How does this channel not have a million subscribers!
even though I have heard about this event a number of times, your story made me feel that exciting feeling again that I felt the first time I heard about it! 👏
I'm incredibly glad that you went into my recommendation on the Bronze Age battle. The battle on Dołęża (Tolouse, Tollense) was propably the most important battle leading to Venedization of Europe and to pushing Sea Peoples south.
I connect the battle of Tollense (Dołęża, Tolouse) with the rise of Vendi/Veneti/Vengiones/Wendisch/Antes or simply "followers of Queen Vanda/Wanda". Those peoples are ancestors of Slavs, Suavi, Balts, Illirians, Thrakians, Bretonians. Due to tradition held in Polish monastery on Jasna Góra, Queen Wanda lived c.a. 1200BC and her sit of power was some 8km east from nowadays Krakow, in nowadays eastern part of Nowa Huta, where the mound of Wanda, bridge of Wanda, stadium of Wanda and shopping mall of Wanda are located.
You've got a brilliant fantasy, man.
@@greenhorn6582 To collect facts and make consisetnt image out of them you need not only imagination, but also a lot of knowledge and this takes time and work
@@greenhorn6582 But if he wrote about Germanic / kings warriors would you not protest? According to contemporaries, the East of Europe does not exist as a politically organized structure. They transfer this thinking to the past
After all, the evidence of the bottom of the battle shows the participation of the Slavs there.
@@pawewalitos3505 "But if he wrote about Germanic / kings warriors would you not protest?"
I would sugest that he's got a brilliant fantasy.
All we know is that there was a battle and the approximate date when this battle took place. We don't know the participants, who won/lost, the cause, the tactics, even the numbers of men or if this battle was decisive and part of a longer war campaign etc etc. And we will never know this.
Hence all is pure speculation... brilliant fantasy at least.
@@greenhorn6582 I see. However, I believe that hypotheses are needed. I am an optimist and I think that it will be possible to gradually bring this event closer
You’re officially my favorite TH-camr now
Wow thanks. You liked this one.
@@DanDavisHistory I’ve loved all your videos! This is by far my favorite historical period and you do such a good job at explaining everything!
That's great to hear.
Thanks for this one! I have grown tired of “this is the way it was so ask no questions” mantra. Whether it is Europe or the Americas it is obtuse, in my opinion, to stop asking questions, to stop searching, just because certain people are more worried about their reputation than discovering there is more to the story.
You've done a great documentary which displays in an eloquent and entartaining manner how much uncertainties history is about - and still how much information can be gathered with scientific method, as long as we are sincere about what the facts are, what are the guesses and what is mere speculation, as well as what research needs to be done, to know more.
It has to be asked. What was happening in this period? I know from Dartmoor and other high moorland areas the Bronze Age people moved into the valleys and low lands, this has been blamed on a change in climate. So were the people of the Tollense Valley moving for the same reason? It's more than coincidence that the fall of the Eastern Med empires, the Sea People, Troy, Tollense and the movement of people in the UK were all around the same period. As for more battle sites, there were more people on Dartmoor in the Bronze Age than there are today, I can't see those already in the lower lands accepting so many with open arms, the same elsewhere in the UK. The sites have to be there, but where? For the UK I would start in East Devon and the Somerset levels.
The Bronze Age Collapse was probably caused by the eruption of Thera, which is now Santorini.
@@slappy8941 Too short term. That eruption was 3-400 years before the period of Tollense or any of the other things I mentioned above. The weather change in the UK and Ireland lasted long enough to form the peat bogs we have now, 2-300 years. There are independent and regional climate changes, the 'Little Ice Age' lasted some 400 years and something along these lines would be my best guess as to what was happening in Western and Eastern Europe at the time.
The end of the Tumulus and Trzciniec cultures lines up with the LBAC in the Mediterranean world. It's probable that a breakdown of society in northern Europe was one of several factors which caused a cascading effect, whereby tribes in southern France, Italy and Illyria were invaded by uprooted bands from the north, disrupting the bronze and amber trades and causing economic hardship there, forcing them to run or join with the northerners in their quest for food/plunder. This would have in turn severely disrupted the economies of Sardinia and Sicily. The main problem is that while Sardinia is rich in copper, it needs to trade with Cornwall for tin to make bronze, and the trade route is now interdicted by an endless tide of bandits. This in turn causes their economy to collapse and for people to seek food/plunder elsewhere, spreading the collapse. And now, with the European bronze trade completely disrupted, everyone in Mesopotamia starts experiencing bronze shortages and has to rely more on the Afghanistan trade routes. To add to that, the entire eastern Mediterranean is currently suffering from a bout of crop failures caused by drought, and Anatolia is suffering from a series of strong earthquakes, which weakens local defenses across the board (but especially so in the Hittite Empire). Currently, the two major empires in the region (Hitties, Egypt) have declared a truce to deal with the rising threat of the Assyrians, and the Hittites have recently concluded some kind of treaty with Wilusa (Troy).
By the time the wave of bandits reaches the Aegean, pretty much everyone in the area is at war. On one side is a coalition led by Mycenae, on the other a coalition led by Wilusa.
Interestingly, the Iliad records the Achaeans randomly detouring to / pillaging certain places unrelated to Troy, suggesting this was a conflict fought on many fronts. If we take the rest of the story as a somewhat distorted account of real events, it's likely that the decade-long siege of Troy (impossible for armies of that time) was actually a multi-generational conflict which flared up every so often, and eventually ended in the defeat and sack of Troy. Given this likelihood, it's entirely possible that the real Agamemnon might have actually been Menelaus's successor, avenging a slight done to his father, or they could have just been two allied kings (the Amarna letters have lots of kings referring to each other as family members as a way of denoting status, so it's possible the same convention was held in nearby Greece).
Either way, everyone is at war and not in a position to stop the bandits coming out of the sea and down out of the Balkans. Greece and western Anatolia are overwhelmed, and the sea bandits set ashore and start heading west, plundering everything as they go. Along the way, many settle down in places, including the Thracians, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians, who together form one branch of the Indo-European language tree. Then the bandits reach the Levant, and shit really begins to go down. Hittite vassals in the area are all caught with their pants down and their armies hundreds of miles away, likely called away by the Hittites to fend off the Anatolian invaders. Eventually, the Hittites break down into civil war, as each prince declares his own city independent and fights the others for dominance. With bandits approaching from the west and the government broken down, the capital city of Hattusas is systematically stripped of its records and valuables and burned down by the Hittites themselves, probably because the land around it is depopulated and they see no further point in maintaining the place.
In the confusion, almost all of the Levant falls to the sea bandits, who establish themselves as rulers over several dozen allied towns. They push back the Assyrians to their homeland, but are defeated by the Egyptians, who install some of them as foederati in the Levant (ex. the Philistines). In this time, minor powers like Israel and Damascus can stretch their wings without interference from the big boys. For the next four centuries, Mesopotamia and Greece sit in a Dark Age, as everyone is too weak to assert dominance and everyone is still suffering from drought, economic collapse and the presence of marauding bandits. The only power that thrives are the Assyrians, who are forced back to their homeland and adopt a series of military reforms which allow them to largely recover their power by the time of Shalmaneser III.
We know very little of what goes on in Europe in the next few centuries, but we know the Liburnian people of Illyria establish a maritime empire stretching from Croatia down across both coasts of the Adriatic, before being supplanted by the Greeks in the 5th century BC. The rest of the Balkans are a chaotic mess, with major kingdoms only developing in the 6th century in Macedon and Thrace. In Italy, we see Etruscan civilization beginning to expand into the Po valley and south along the Tyrrhenian coast. In that time, they dominate the Umbrian and Sabine tribes around them culturally. By the 5th century, we see a large influx of Celts into the Po valley, and the Insubri build the city of Mediolanon (Milan). We also see Italic tribes pushing south in a local version of the _koryos_ tradition called _ver sacrum_ all the way up to Roman times, with the Brutti reaching Calabria by the 5th century BC. In Sardinia, the Nuragic civilization continues on in a much diminished form all the way up to Roman conquest. We also see the Celts expand into Spain during this time, butting up against the native Iberians, Vascones and Lusitanians.
@@hashkangaroo : While Troy is virtually guaranteed not to have been sieged continuously for the whole ~10 years of the Trojan War, I would default to assuming that at least the individuals given a major depiction did live for around the span that they are ascribed. The generational variety would instead be found within the _ages_ of the combatants, where Achilles was apparently believed to be 15 when the Trojan War began; whereas Nestor was around 70 or more and Priam died around the age of 80, both having been contemporaries of the famous Heracles.
@@hashkangaroo this is generally speaking what I believe happened.
I LOVE your videos. Not a lot of historians are willing to acknowledge prehistory. Just because most of it wasn’t written. Oral histories and myths have some truths into them. They just need to be memorable in order to be past down.
Interesting that this took place within a century preceding the "bronze age collapse", which is often blamed on invasions of people from the northern coast of the Mediterranean, ie, Europe. The development of hillforts (7:12) suggests that the local population was starting to feel crowded.
Loved this one, makes the imagination flee.
Thank you, good to know. I'm never sure about the "scene setting" stuff and don't want to put people off but some people ask for more of it.
One of the ways you can gauge the violence of an era is the proportion of skeletons found with signs of violence versus those without. Another good gauge is the standardization of armaments found, both shape, composition, and relative age. The final gauge is the effectiveness of defensive armor, pieces of which are found around bodies that were never buried, this indicates an arms race and hence continuous warfare and a warrior caste
Great work!
Even shouted out the metal detectorists!
I'm very impressed with what u did there.
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
Great video, now if it happened at around the same time as the trojan war its probably not the first battle in history, correct me if I'm wrong please.
Excellent coverage , never heard of this battle and I have read a lot of ancient history. Thank you for enlightening myself. Keep up the good work.
The Mycenaeans conquered Europe’s largest city at the time, Knossos in 1450 BC
I think he meant the first known battle in temperate Europe
@@SithStudyI doubt it. There’s not really a temperate climate in Europe. It’s a large spectrum. Also, why would anyone care about climate? They’re all Europeans
Knossos was Minoan, on Crete.
@@stevenweaver3386 All 3 of which are European
Can’t have enough of your videos. Great work dude!
Thank you, I appreciate it. Glad you liked this one.
Just came across this channel. Outstanding narrative, solid evidence based approach and broad, open minded delivery. Can’t wait to see more
great video! i didn't know about this site! this time period was the most significant in European history in regards to laying the foundation of genetic and cultural stock for what all Europe would be until modern times. Its the secret past just beyond the known written one. IMO i think that corded ware culture brought the horse into Europe along with a warrior culture, while metallurgy was controlled by the southeastern nation states of the time. The horse riding warriors made good capital equity through their actions, and created a demand for metal weapons. These warriors in turn merged with metallurgists to control the arms production and create a syndicate. This syndicate used economics and imperial conquest to seed the first warrior kings throughout Europe who would than conquer and impose on the local populations, and the outcome was the cultures we know later, Celts, Germans, Latins, Eutruscans, Greeks, Iberians, slavs ect. ect.
*YOUR BEST VIDEO SO FAR* as an author myself I loved the bit of writing at the beginning.
Thank you very much.
@@DanDavisHistory - Was the writing from a book of yours, or did you write it for the video??
I wrote it for the video.
@@DanDavisHistory - I liked it...
I really like the amount of nuance in this video and others of yours, its really points to your ethics as a researcher.
Excellent presentation!! The quality I've been searching for, where others fall short! Earned my sub!!!
Thank you, welcome to the channel. I hope you enjoy the other videos.
Thanks for another great video on Bronze age warfare. I really enjoy these. I was wondering when you'd do a video on the Tollense battle, it really is such an amazing site.
Cheers mate, I appreciate it. I didn't want to do a video on it, I was going to focus on other stuff but under almost every video and post people were asking for it or asking about it. So I thought I better do it.
So glad i found this channel, I wish I did sooner though. Keep the videos coming man! ✌️
I absolutely loved watching this. Such an amazing and mysterious site
Glad you enjoyed it, cheers mate.
Love the history. The Investigation continues. Hope you can get the funding to advance the questions.
This is fascinating, great content thanks, and good to see the detectorists get a well deserved mention, still looking for a mayoral chain
19:45 this right here makes me want to think that one of the groups was fleeing over large distances from a superior force pillaging the region, and that they got caught at the river and were forced to fight.
Wonderful video, have re-watched it so many times like all the others. Will Herkuhlos partake in a similar one at some point or was the final battle in Thunderer inspired by it?
Thank you so much. This partly inspired the finale of Thunderer but obviously it predates it by a very long time. The nature of combat changed quite a lot between those two eras - it was becoming far more organised and professionalised by 1250 BC in a way that was not true in 2900 BC.
@@DanDavisHistory I was thinking when I read it this holiday (I recieved both books for Yule and read them in less than one week) how wonderfully you described the chaotic nature of early warfare. Braver fighers take the lead, urging their men onwards, with more joining in as they find their courage. The use of shields and "shieldwalls" was a nice touch, as is how you describe mounted warfare! More about breaking enemy moral and getting quickly into combat rather than massed cavalry charges with lances.
Dan's an amazing scholar. I can imagine he himself was a bronze age warrior who, as he lay dying on the battlefield, swore that someday he would come back and tell his descendants what happened, and 3500 years later we get blessed with this incredible student of history who educates us all about the Bronze Age, in far greater detail than we were ever taught in school!
Or, as Dan himself might say ...maybe that's not what happened at all...we'll just have to keep researching and see!
Cheers bro, I appreciate it. I must say, I'm not a scholar, I'm a story teller who uses the work of scholars. 🙏
Great video. Good insight & logic applied.
Thank you very much.
Just found your channel and I enjoy how you condense the information, yet maintaining the details. I have never heard of this specific area. I can't wait to check out your other videos.
Thanks very much, welcome to the channel. I hope you like the other videos too.
Brilliant piece of forensics and analysis…all possibilities studied and presented!
Thank you very much.
Fascinating. Was there any effort to analyze the 'downstream' variants among the yDNA results? R-P312? R-U106?
All nine of the I2a samples were I2a-M223 and all Y3672. Suggesting to me at least they were all members of the same clan or whatever. Perhaps they were the losers here or perhaps it's a sampling issue, I don't know.
Of the R1b one was R1b-Z2118, one 2R1b-L51 and two were R1b-P312
And R1a-Z283 > M458 which is often called Slavic
@@DanDavisHistory Yeah, it sure sounds like a I2A clan against a coalition of R1b clans. R1a could be on either side I suppose, maybe some trader in the wrong place at the wrong time. I bet its a squabble over control of trade routes that spiraled out of control. R1b types are prowling around maybe trying to muscle in on nodes along the routes, maybe raiding and stealing stuff. I2A guys are getting more annoyed, decide they've had enough of that crap, get a bunch of their cousins together to take on these jerks. Then R1b guy brings in a bunch of his like minded associates...suddenly its a party...
@@stanleyshannon4408 they could all have been part of the same general society too. Not a "civil war" exactly but they could all come from the same general population, bolstered by more mobile warriors (mercs / aristos / guards / ect) from across Europe.
You've earned yourself a Subscriber. Keep it up
Thank you very much, welcome to the channel.
Thank you Dan excellent narrative of a fascinating piece of our prehistory.
Your opening monologue reminded me of the Crispin’s day speech in Henry V. What is the source for this or did you pen it?
Once again thank you for your history videos I really enjoy your revelations.
Cheers John, I appreciate it. And yeah I just made it up.
An excellent intro to the subject, very informative, subscribed.
Either this is an incredibly interesting topic that I've never found before, or your low-key presentation puts forward so well what we can discover & what we can't know (or at least with certainty). Or, most likely, both. Thank you.
This is exactly what I've been looking for. I'm fascinated by the mysterious peoples of prehistory, ancient migrations and the like so I think I'm in the right place.
A fascinating video…enjoyed it tremendously!
I found it interesting to see how flint weapons were being used alongside bronze ones.
obsidian weapons were being used alongside firearms during the Indian wars in the 19th century. It is fascinating to think about how long certain weapon types were used.
I often think it's more of a high demand kind of situation during battles when they needed to immediately supply soldiers with weapons, kinda like WW2 Sten and Grease guns, quick, easy and cheap to make.
Great video. You put so much time, effort, and consideration into these and it shows.
Thank you, mate. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I appreciate your support.
Well Mr Davis I have to say "Well played."
After watching your channel for a bit I finally bought godborn on Audible expecting to have a nice historical fiction story set in bronze age Europe, but that's not all it is, is it? I saw the signs in the first few chapters but when the MC got his Man's name and the reveal about who the yotunan are I must say it was all a pleasant surprise I was not expecting a reimagining of "That" story but I'm not complaining, I will gladly buy the second book, and I will follow this series with great anticipation.
I must say though I'm glad this time in history is getting some love, the only other bronze age story I've been able to find has been "Empires of Bronze" By Gordon Doherty.
Thank you.
Im so hyped, I havent even watched the vid yet but everything about Tollense is just fascinating. Thx 4 the vid in advance, Im gonna enjoy it nonetheless.
Fascinating video! On the section about socketed bronze arrowheads you mention that they were rare because of the scarcity of tin, and that most arrowheads were made of flint. I wonder how widespread were the use of copper arrowheads? Perhaps they weren't widely available as copper was kept stored for use to make bronze when tin became available. In a time when the vast majority of warriors were unarmoured perhaps copper arrowheads could've been effective. Maybe it was easier to make flint tools rather than copper ones as flint was more readily available, or the tribesmen were more proficient in their manufacture. Thanks for the video.
Generally relatively pure copper is too soft to be very effective in tools and weapons.
There is a lot of misconception about copper.
Copper is a lot tougher than people realise when hammer hardened, it is not soft, as some might think.
The problem is not with the copper, but rather That stone is a far better tool than most modern people are willing to give credit.
It’s readily available, easily worked on the spot, with limited investment of effort and limited skill. It’s far sharper than copper, and you don’t need to sharpen it, you just knapp out a new one, when required.
Copper was useful for chisels, needles, woodworking tools, etc.
But for arrowheads, why? When stone is so effective and cheap?
Good video as always, the Tollense Valley battle is a very interesting topic.
I recently discovered your channel and I'm very impressed with the great range of resources that you bring together. Sometimes I get interested in an artifact or ancient tool or weapon and try to discover more about it but I don't get far in my research. You bring together great photos but also many layers of additional information and - most importantly - a great depth of context that is usually missing from written articles, photos and the like. Great work, Dan!
It's crazy to think just how big this battle might've been as the only things that was perserved were in the river.
Very familiar with Mediterranean Bronze age, I'm hearing this for the 1st time very fascinating. Ty
Another excellent video from an excellent author
Thank you very much, so glad you enjoyed it!
Very nicely done! I like the way you show the actual battlefield and posit how it could have happened in a nice narrative. But then you fill in the pleasant hypothesis with the info about the people and finds, and the questions that real historians and scientists should ask. Hope to see more like this!