Believe me, I was also bummed out when the “redemption” got thrown out the window, but I always had this *thing* at the top of my head that made me feel contempt with how the “failed redemption” worked, and I think *you* just proved that. 😅
As someone who LOVES Chloe and wishes she was redeemed, this is fully fair!! I get the idea of a false redemption and I fully understand it!! While I dislike Chloe’s failed redemption, I can FULLY understand the appeal /gen
While I was disappointed that Chloe failed, I saw it coming. But then I am fully adult. My daughter was more disappointed than I was. She is 13. When I was 14, I would have made the same mistakes Marinette did. I agree, this arc was good, no matter how much I don't like the ending.
@@snoww3771 yeah. they hate for the redemption had nothing to do with bad writing. most of us hate it cause man it should have been a redemption. which is a good reason to hate on it
Someone sent me a link to this video and you're honestly on to something here. Looking back on these episodes, Chloe doesn't seem to have changed all that much. While I lament that, I can definitely appreciate you for finding immense value in these types of stories. Thank you for giving me a wider perspective on this.
Fun fact, in the Hebrew dub, chloe is voiced by Talya Barkey, who also does various characters in the show like tomoe tsurugi, the teachers bustier and mendeleviv, majestia and orikko. Other roles of her include yasmin in the bratz franchise, Anne-Marie in all dogs go to heaven, atomic betty in the show of the same name, twilight sparkle, goldie delicious and queen chrysalis in my little pony: friendship is magic, Jessica allspice, etta the han, hanna, veronica, macy, some of the sheep, a badger, dr. Betty, a vet, Freddy's mom, inga, Juanita, ivana sugardadsky, Shelia, prunella, and the fox cheerleader in back at the barnyard, Ashley in the boys, uniqua in the backyardians, arlene in Garfield gets real and Garfield pet force, Millie Burtonburger in kid vs kat, mrs. And grandma SquarePants, nancy O'Malley, sometimes karen and occasionally gary in SpongeBob SquarePants, and so so much more.
Well at least someone finally gets it for Chloe's character. Personally back in season 2 I was rooting for her to change when she became Queen Bee as she learns bit by bit of empathy, but as the seasons progress more and more we see that in ways she wasn't even remotely trying to change her character and was just taking advantage of everyone and everything around her. Just as she was used to having to receive things on a silver platter (or in her case gold platter) and not to actually earn them herself. It's the same way with her abandonment and loneliness and the need to be a hero so all can see, we see that she feels that Ladybug wasn't giving her a chance to be Queen Bee when really Ladybug/Marinette didn't want to give her the Bee Miraculous for her own safety for herself and her loved ones of not being a main target for villains. Plus around seasons 2-4 when Ladybug was giving Miraculous to heroes temporarily is was a privilege to fight and be called upon while to Chloe was claiming entitlement for herself. But there's still the issue that Chloe's character while yes if she had dropped her selfish self entitled ego she still would've been Queen Bee. But she lacks of what it really means a hero besides the name, powers, costumes and the fame and attention. To be a hero is to know to use your powers for the sack of others, to know and how to work together as a team and of course the responsibility of being a hero and to have patience when called upon. It's just the same as her self proclaim Queen alias and status, there's more to being a Queen then a title and crown, it's about judge of character and learn what is right for those around her for the greater good. But as we've seen she only thought of herself instead of others. And what happened in Miracle Queen was a turning point for her, yes Hawk Moth played with her emotions of abandonment and loneliness. But after words it was a turning point of her actions that she didn't take full responsibility for and continues to blame Ladybug for not making her Queen Bee anymore. And with the seasons of 4-5 we see her going more downhill and becoming more and more of a pain as she still as a vendetta for Ladybug of banishing her from the team and not being Queen Bee anymore, demanding more from her father and making Sabrina more and more into a slave than a friend. All because she didn't get what she wanted as Queen Bee and be a hero that everyone can adore and count on. Yes I know she was still a kid, teen at most, but everyone knows when mistakes are made and takes full responsibility for their actions Chloe doesn't learn from her mistakes and take responsibility instead leaves it for others to pick up and blame others as well. And as we've seen everyone has their own development and growth and knows what they want in the future, while Chloe proclaims she doesn't need to as she will remain rich and powerful. And more and more in season 5 we've seen Chloe gone to far and pushing people as everyone had their limits with her. From Adrien finally having enough of her ending their friendship when Chloe proclaims that apologizing those with lower status were against her, Sabrina and her father Andre had their limits pushed to far and decided enough was enough. Seeing as Sabrina had enough of Chloe as well as Lila (Chloe unaware that she was basically Lila's puppet as well controlling her) and cut ties with her, and Andre finally actually grow a backbone and admitting he was responsible for spoiling Chloe and punished her in the end of the Revolution episode. But Revolution was a big one at the most, seeing as how far as Chloe as Queen Mayor had made all of Paris a literal nightmare under her reign, but having enough of her dictatorship and thanks to Ladybug's encouragement all of Paris has finally had enough and fought back finally kicking her off that high horse of hers. And when lost said power basically she ended up with no one to turn to, no friends no respect from adults, and even no love from her mother Audrey as we've seen her being all proud of Chloe having power and when lost said power and ruined the family name and reputation Audrey spoke of coming down hard on her and controlling her life and education meaning that Chloe would have no free privilege and immunity power as she once had. And thinking she was the one to get the last word had been the final straw for the tables to turn, with the call from Marinette was the one to slap her in the face with the harsh truth as she has no one and no power over anymore and that she was the 'Utterly Ridiculous' one. That call was it to finally get her to see of what she has become and that she was the one to put her self down that dark path all because she chose her self entitlement, her rich status and having Power, than trying to change her self and learn about empathy and the welfare of others. Man that's a lot out of me and my personal opinions. But at least in this video someone finally gets it enough.
I wouldn't have really had a problem with a failed redemption if it was written good, but I don't think it was. Her writing is especially bad in season 4 and 5, where we are supposed to see the end result of this failed redemption. But it just becomes so obvious they WANT us the viewers to hate her, which is really weird. And I think the biggest problem is that out of all the people who got some sort of redemption in this show, Chloe's was written the best. It was actually a slow progress, happening throughout seasons, meanwhile everyone else gets just a single moment basically and suddenly they are good. Another problem is the bee replacement. They could've had a better bee holder and show us that she is actually better, but instead we are just told she is better (again, they want us to hate Chloe), and we get Chloe's long lost sister with little to no personality whose only purpose was to be a bee replacement during season 4. (In season 5 they tried to make her a better character but in my opinion it was too late). Also, I just think Queen Bee would have been much more interesting, as she was someone who accidentally got the Miraculous, unlike everyone else who were chosen by Marinette. It was something new. And then there is Marinette. I won't blame her for her mistakes, some of them are well written actually. But the problem comes with the end results, and the show never really blaming Marinette. The last moment that really pushed Chloe to the bad side was that Marinette chose Kagami instead of her during the season 3 finale. Chloe was told she can't be Queen Bee because her identity is know. But guess whose identity Hawkmoth knows too? Kagami's! And again, I think it was a well written mistake by Marinette. But then it's never really addressed (or atleast not this part of the mistake, as she made multiple mistakes during that moment) and she continues to let everyone else be a superhero during season 4 even tho their identity's were found out. The only person she didn't allow to be one was Chloe, and yeah she doesn't like her, but she never learn this isn't okay. So yeah, I don't like how they did this, and as long as they'll want us to hate her like ever since season 4, I won't account Chloe for anything and continue to like her, since it's just forced and bad writing.
THANK YOU! Finally, someone who gets it. I was once bitter about Chloe getting a redemption too, but then I realized what the writers were actually trying to do and actually ended up liking her failed redemption. It was the story of someone who was given the chance to change but was unable to due to her being too proud to answer to the people she has hurt which ultimately ended up biting her in the butt in "Revolution".
The stuff that happened in revoulotion made no sense I kinda feel bad for her after season 3 I know she was bad but they started making her act kinda dumb an out of character
You are wrong in one part. This girl only had a bear,a boy and a peasent as a friend for FOURTEEN-EIGHTEEN YEARS! Her father spoils her so that he will LOOK like a good father and her mother left her as a KID,HAD AN AFFAIR WHILE IN A MARRIAGE AND HAD A KID. I think what sums up Chloe is this word "Every child deserves a parent but not every parent deserve a child". Chloe wants LOVE,she saw how EVERYONE loved Ladybug but came to learn that being a hero,being a good person is more loved than her. Everyone wants happiness and love,REAL loving person. I believe the reason why she became a villain is not because she is a spoiled brat,it is because she wants LOVE. And she had the wrong person as parents and the wrong hero. Not to mention there is more to this than the show. Thomas legit said that she can't get abused because she is rich,like BROTHER WTF?! In my OPINION Chloe isn't a narcisisst. She is a VICTIM. Her parents? Oh-so-great relationship. Friends? SUUURE CUZ SHE HAS PLENTYYYYYYY. A hero who isn't a teen stalker and a Mary Sue? YEAHHHHBH,CUZ LADYBUG TOTALLY FITS INTO ALLLLLLL OF THAT. Honestly at this point. Take the most powerful Miraculous from the hands of this CHILD. PLEASE. MARINETTE ISN'T EVEN THAT ENJOYABLE OR LOVEABLE MC! CAT NOIR MADE LESS MISTAKES,BETTER BACKSTORY,BETTER DESIGN,ISN'T THOMAS ASTRUC'S VIRTUAL DAUGHTER. I am sorry but Chloe is a VICTIM. And saying she did this to herself when all of her guides were either minors who should NOT be superheroes or awful people aka her mom and dad,what the fuck dude? She was of course going to do this! She had the WORST characters in the show to guide her (and yes I am including Mari in this,cry about it) Honestly I feel like if they showed she had the wrong teachers and stop victim blaming this CHILD. I would have been fine. If the reason for her disredemption was wanting ONE LOVING PERSON IN HER LIFE I would have loved that! Also can we talk about her parents? Why the FUCK does Andre get a redemption arc? He could have just rented a babysitter to give Chloe manners but he couldn't give less of a shit! Eighteen years of being an awful parent to a once innocent child is more acceptable than being a high school bully? ANDRE WAS GOING TO CUT SO MANY TREES IF IT WASN'T FOR FUCKING CHILDREN TO PROTEST,AND HE DOESN'T GET CALLED OUT BUT CHLOE HAS AWFUL PARENTS,LADYBUG IS AN ABSOLOUTE BITCH THAT TEACHES WRONG LESSONS,SHE HAS NO FRIENDS,NOT LOVED,HATED BY EVERYONE,IF IT WAS LEGAL HER PARENTS WOULD JUST LEAVE HER IN THE DUST,HOW IS SHE A NARCISISST BUT NOT A VICTIM?! I GENIUENLY DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT WHEN IT COMES TO THAT! AND I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GIVE MYSELF PROOF SHE IS A NARCISISST FOR 3 FUCKING HOURS.
of course. let it be clear that I like everyone else, do wish it was a real redemption arc, and for that reason I can't like this arc. but I can't deny that this was a really well written arc regardless
will admit i was disappointed(not upset like other) of what happen in miracle queen but after reading trivia on her wiki page help change my mind on it making me realize that chloe never change was still spoiled brat from day 1 of series
I honestly still think it is terrible to make someone who is a bully like chloe not redeem herself. A lot of people believe that people who bully are never capable of redeeming. Like Thomas said about Chloe, she is irredeemable🫤. I personally think this show is trash for making Chloe not irredeemable, in My little pony for example, them making Cozy glow not redeem herself made more sense since Twilight literally put her in the my little pony version of hell which let's be honest wouldn't redeem a kid that got the wrong version of what friendship means. Chloe not being redeemed is just so stupid to me. They could have just made her a bad person to begin with, and too far gone. If their goal was to make her a failed redemption arc, then they did a horrible job at this. Like i said Cozy glow failed redemption arc made more sense than Chloe's redemption arc which is wild since Cozy glow is suppose to be a kid who clearly didn’t have the right people in life to help her realise what she did was wrong. Cozy glow not redeeming herself was only Twilight's fault, and the show actually did a good job showing that. There is no good enough excuse for why exactly Chloe is irredeemable. If the show did what My little pony did with Cozy glow. They could maybe make it ladybug's fault for being the main reason why Chloe would never redeem herself. It would not only make Ladybug look bad for once. It will be even a better character development if Ladybug realises that she was the reason for Chloe not redeeming herself and her blaming herself for the mistake. It will honestly make Ladybug less like a perfectionist and more flawed. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter since we can't change the present, and Chloe will forever be irredeemable unless they find a way to make her realise her mistakes.
We shoudl try to get this video to more peoples attention guys!!!! Like and comment or tell ur fav miraculous TH-camrs or fans to try to cover this. Go to smaller miraculous creators and tell then too!! Its a unique way of thinking that doesn't double down with the wave of people who disliked the arc and VERY VERY LOGICAL
SPREAD THE WORD I saw a tweet by thomas saying something like "we tried to give her a redemption but it was agreed by all writers that it felt too off character of her" i still can't wrap my head around this bs. i mean it's possible, but it was only the second season, and it had been only like what, 2 years of miraculous at that point? and how the heck it feels off character of her to become better and grow up but not everyone else? like andre??? like if it felt off character of chloe to become a better person, it DEFINITELY should feel off character of andre as well, if not a lot more! he's a grown ass man!! thomas also said "anyone in her place wouldn't want to change" yeah if that's the case, anyone in Andre's place wouldn't too ig?? what's wrong with wanting to be better even when if it's coming from a place of privilege? Thomas is focusing so much in arguing "realism" that he literally forgets it's a fictional character we're talking about. and most of all you can use these exact types of characters to show that anyone, ANYONE, can grow and be a better person if they wish to be. to say a 14 year old is irredeemable is just too messed up.
Honestly yeah, I hate this arch so much and wish she actually did get redeemed but at least it's actually good writing! But, I do despise what they did with her character in Season 4 and Season 5, she just awful there.
If feel like Chloe doesn't want attention she wants LOVE AND FRIENDS. She only had a teddy bear and Adrien,I feel like this is the fault of her parents and not to mention Marinette did mistakes that lead to this but she does not get punished to teach Chloe to get a better person and they don't punish her but Chloe,who is the victim here. I feel like it is just victim blaming.
Your trauma is an explanation for your actions But never an excuse, at the end day Chloe should still be held accountable for the decisions she made in the present day Trying to dismiss everything as her parent's or Marinette's fault just actively removes Chloe's own agency as a character.
I am saying that the reason why this had a chance of happening in the first place is her tutors,Chloe should still be punished but I feel like Andre and Audrey should be punished too. Marinette.... She is still a teen but she SHOULD get the punishment for that level of stalking
I think you make a lot of great points, and with any other show I would likely agree with you!!! I think this arc ultimately was relatively well-written, you’ve convinced me of that, although given that this is Miraculous I have doubts that it was intentional 😕 Given the rest of the show’s shaky writing and the back-and-forth between writers between seasons 3-4, I think it’s more likely that this was kind of a happy accident, and that Chloe might have had a continued redemption arc (albeit a flawed one) in S4 if not for Astruc’s dislike of her and that possibility. Your video has given me some things to consider though and it’s nice looking back on her arc as a masterful failed redemption arc rather than a mediocre redemption arc cut short lol
@@olive9097 I've read up on people mentions of astrucs dislikes to Chloe and all related. as far as I've seen he doesn't hate Chloe. in fact he himself has said he focused on keeping her in character is why he decided the redemption arc would fail cause of it. and I think what I mentioned is a major reason why. even tho there was a back and forth Thomas still has a general flow he wanted season for the season 2-3. and it's pretty clear especially when most of the good actions she had in season 3 were repeats of actions in season 2. confirmed it for me. cause that's how people in actual toxic relationships get you LMAO
@@flakyseasalt Personally, I think it would have been perfectly in character for her redemption to stick, and that Thomas Astruc was lying when he said that.
@@ethancox9737 it would have been in character. given the correct responses. but Chloe wasn't given those correct responses as I said in the video. and to change any of marinettes approaches will make HER be out of character as she doesn't have the prior experience to know what Chloe needs to change. I believe that's what Thomas ment. he however could have if he wanted to, create seperate arcs where marinette learned exactly what she needed to be able to help Chloe and that would have been in character. but I'm guessing to tell the story he wished to tell, it wasn't possible, my guess is episode per season issues. you can argue he could have approached this differently. but he definitely wasn't lying. the way either character was wouldn't have been able to make the change work
@@flakyseasalt I still think it was a crummy idea to not have Marinette manage to redeem Chloe. I also think it would have been better if some of the adults got more involved in this whole thing.
Even though I hate the fact she didn't get a redemption arc, the writing in the leadup to miracle queen wasn't actually that bad. Even though I strongly disagree with you, I think maybe I can understand
@@Wandahoii.i buddy I did want the redemption arc too. you can accept the writing is good but not like it cause it's isn't what you wanted. I'm like that here too
you think this is what they wanted...but when you look at the directors twitter (i cant spell his name) so even if this seems planned from the beginning, if you get the context from his tweets, it just seems like the writers wanted a redemption...but scrapped it due to the directors insistance of making chloe unredeemable...but somehow gabriel isnt (makes sense) even if it is a kids show, this doesnt excuse the characters (marinette's) stupidity or creepy behavior if they did plan if from the beginning, they would've droped more hints and teasers about it...not randomly and drastically make chloe bad from seemingly outta nowhere, the only clues you can connect is the directors petty tweets and then zoey comming outta nowhere...no offense being a worse queen bee and desprately just trying to be a cheap replacement for the queen bee holder i still pray she gets the bee back and zoey gets a new power but this aint it, im sorry and the whole chloe villian arc already ended and should've concluded at miracle queen. at best this its still just bad writing, at worst (possibly) its the director having a fissy fit over the fandom
dont get me started at ladybugs identity rules not applying to everyone 💀💀💀 (I:E not giving the miraculous to chloe anymore cuz her identity is revealed...but breaking the rule several times, especially in the newer seasons)
well my point was that Chloe was redeemable. it's just that all the wrong moves were placed to push her even tho it looked like good moves and that was kinda brilliant of the show runners to do
@@flakyseasalt i mean that some character are just better villains then other Chloe to me just wasn't the type or person to change without something to really push after season 5 that biggest push she could have. plus learning about her past just sort of explain more so why everyone literally throw a party to see her gone
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I sounded way too angry in this video lmao
Believe me, I was also bummed out when the “redemption” got thrown out the window, but I always had this *thing* at the top of my head that made me feel contempt with how the “failed redemption” worked, and I think *you* just proved that. 😅
I loved S2 Chloe, but you are right, i just wish they actually made her a real redemption arc
@@P29-s7x agreed
Fr
As someone who LOVES Chloe and wishes she was redeemed, this is fully fair!! I get the idea of a false redemption and I fully understand it!! While I dislike Chloe’s failed redemption, I can FULLY understand the appeal /gen
@@forkalamari6093 yeah. dislike the arc for not making it a proper redemption everyone wanted, not for its writing
This vid actually ATE,CONSUMED,DEVOURED (repeat)😖😖😖
While I was disappointed that Chloe failed, I saw it coming. But then I am fully adult. My daughter was more disappointed than I was. She is 13. When I was 14, I would have made the same mistakes Marinette did. I agree, this arc was good, no matter how much I don't like the ending.
@@snoww3771 yeah. they hate for the redemption had nothing to do with bad writing. most of us hate it cause man it should have been a redemption. which is a good reason to hate on it
I'm a young adult, and I was sure she was going to become a better person permanently. How did you see that coming?
Someone sent me a link to this video and you're honestly on to something here.
Looking back on these episodes, Chloe doesn't seem to have changed all that much. While I lament that, I can definitely appreciate you for finding immense value in these types of stories.
Thank you for giving me a wider perspective on this.
@@ACriticalRetrospective appreciated! I agree I wish Chloe did change. but I still think this was well done
Fun fact, in the Hebrew dub, chloe is voiced by Talya Barkey, who also does various characters in the show like tomoe tsurugi, the teachers bustier and mendeleviv, majestia and orikko. Other roles of her include yasmin in the bratz franchise, Anne-Marie in all dogs go to heaven, atomic betty in the show of the same name, twilight sparkle, goldie delicious and queen chrysalis in my little pony: friendship is magic, Jessica allspice, etta the han, hanna, veronica, macy, some of the sheep, a badger, dr. Betty, a vet, Freddy's mom, inga, Juanita, ivana sugardadsky, Shelia, prunella, and the fox cheerleader in back at the barnyard, Ashley in the boys, uniqua in the backyardians, arlene in Garfield gets real and Garfield pet force, Millie Burtonburger in kid vs kat, mrs. And grandma SquarePants, nancy O'Malley, sometimes karen and occasionally gary in SpongeBob SquarePants, and so so much more.
Well at least someone finally gets it for Chloe's character.
Personally back in season 2 I was rooting for her to change when she became Queen Bee as she learns bit by bit of empathy, but as the seasons progress more and more we see that in ways she wasn't even remotely trying to change her character and was just taking advantage of everyone and everything around her. Just as she was used to having to receive things on a silver platter (or in her case gold platter) and not to actually earn them herself. It's the same way with her abandonment and loneliness and the need to be a hero so all can see, we see that she feels that Ladybug wasn't giving her a chance to be Queen Bee when really Ladybug/Marinette didn't want to give her the Bee Miraculous for her own safety for herself and her loved ones of not being a main target for villains. Plus around seasons 2-4 when Ladybug was giving Miraculous to heroes temporarily is was a privilege to fight and be called upon while to Chloe was claiming entitlement for herself.
But there's still the issue that Chloe's character while yes if she had dropped her selfish self entitled ego she still would've been Queen Bee. But she lacks of what it really means a hero besides the name, powers, costumes and the fame and attention. To be a hero is to know to use your powers for the sack of others, to know and how to work together as a team and of course the responsibility of being a hero and to have patience when called upon.
It's just the same as her self proclaim Queen alias and status, there's more to being a Queen then a title and crown, it's about judge of character and learn what is right for those around her for the greater good. But as we've seen she only thought of herself instead of others.
And what happened in Miracle Queen was a turning point for her, yes Hawk Moth played with her emotions of abandonment and loneliness. But after words it was a turning point of her actions that she didn't take full responsibility for and continues to blame Ladybug for not making her Queen Bee anymore. And with the seasons of 4-5 we see her going more downhill and becoming more and more of a pain as she still as a vendetta for Ladybug of banishing her from the team and not being Queen Bee anymore, demanding more from her father and making Sabrina more and more into a slave than a friend. All because she didn't get what she wanted as Queen Bee and be a hero that everyone can adore and count on.
Yes I know she was still a kid, teen at most, but everyone knows when mistakes are made and takes full responsibility for their actions Chloe doesn't learn from her mistakes and take responsibility instead leaves it for others to pick up and blame others as well. And as we've seen everyone has their own development and growth and knows what they want in the future, while Chloe proclaims she doesn't need to as she will remain rich and powerful. And more and more in season 5 we've seen Chloe gone to far and pushing people as everyone had their limits with her. From Adrien finally having enough of her ending their friendship when Chloe proclaims that apologizing those with lower status were against her, Sabrina and her father Andre had their limits pushed to far and decided enough was enough. Seeing as Sabrina had enough of Chloe as well as Lila (Chloe unaware that she was basically Lila's puppet as well controlling her) and cut ties with her, and Andre finally actually grow a backbone and admitting he was responsible for spoiling Chloe and punished her in the end of the Revolution episode.
But Revolution was a big one at the most, seeing as how far as Chloe as Queen Mayor had made all of Paris a literal nightmare under her reign, but having enough of her dictatorship and thanks to Ladybug's encouragement all of Paris has finally had enough and fought back finally kicking her off that high horse of hers.
And when lost said power basically she ended up with no one to turn to, no friends no respect from adults, and even no love from her mother Audrey as we've seen her being all proud of Chloe having power and when lost said power and ruined the family name and reputation Audrey spoke of coming down hard on her and controlling her life and education meaning that Chloe would have no free privilege and immunity power as she once had. And thinking she was the one to get the last word had been the final straw for the tables to turn, with the call from Marinette was the one to slap her in the face with the harsh truth as she has no one and no power over anymore and that she was the 'Utterly Ridiculous' one.
That call was it to finally get her to see of what she has become and that she was the one to put her self down that dark path all because she chose her self entitlement, her rich status and having Power, than trying to change her self and learn about empathy and the welfare of others.
Man that's a lot out of me and my personal opinions. But at least in this video someone finally gets it enough.
You definitely cooked with this analysis surrounding Chloe's unchanging behavior throughout the series
Loved reading every bit of this
I wouldn't have really had a problem with a failed redemption if it was written good, but I don't think it was. Her writing is especially bad in season 4 and 5, where we are supposed to see the end result of this failed redemption. But it just becomes so obvious they WANT us the viewers to hate her, which is really weird. And I think the biggest problem is that out of all the people who got some sort of redemption in this show, Chloe's was written the best. It was actually a slow progress, happening throughout seasons, meanwhile everyone else gets just a single moment basically and suddenly they are good. Another problem is the bee replacement. They could've had a better bee holder and show us that she is actually better, but instead we are just told she is better (again, they want us to hate Chloe), and we get Chloe's long lost sister with little to no personality whose only purpose was to be a bee replacement during season 4. (In season 5 they tried to make her a better character but in my opinion it was too late). Also, I just think Queen Bee would have been much more interesting, as she was someone who accidentally got the Miraculous, unlike everyone else who were chosen by Marinette. It was something new. And then there is Marinette. I won't blame her for her mistakes, some of them are well written actually. But the problem comes with the end results, and the show never really blaming Marinette. The last moment that really pushed Chloe to the bad side was that Marinette chose Kagami instead of her during the season 3 finale. Chloe was told she can't be Queen Bee because her identity is know. But guess whose identity Hawkmoth knows too? Kagami's! And again, I think it was a well written mistake by Marinette. But then it's never really addressed (or atleast not this part of the mistake, as she made multiple mistakes during that moment) and she continues to let everyone else be a superhero during season 4 even tho their identity's were found out. The only person she didn't allow to be one was Chloe, and yeah she doesn't like her, but she never learn this isn't okay.
So yeah, I don't like how they did this, and as long as they'll want us to hate her like ever since season 4, I won't account Chloe for anything and continue to like her, since it's just forced and bad writing.
THANK YOU! Finally, someone who gets it. I was once bitter about Chloe getting a redemption too, but then I realized what the writers were actually trying to do and actually ended up liking her failed redemption. It was the story of someone who was given the chance to change but was unable to due to her being too proud to answer to the people she has hurt which ultimately ended up biting her in the butt in "Revolution".
The stuff that happened in revoulotion made no sense I kinda feel bad for her after season 3 I know she was bad but they started making her act kinda dumb an out of character
At last, someone gets it :)
(But, unlike Lila, she probably still is redeemable after season 5 (if she wants to))
(((Has Thomas never "lied" to you? ;) ))
You are wrong in one part. This girl only had a bear,a boy and a peasent as a friend for FOURTEEN-EIGHTEEN YEARS! Her father spoils her so that he will LOOK like a good father and her mother left her as a KID,HAD AN AFFAIR WHILE IN A MARRIAGE AND HAD A KID. I think what sums up Chloe is this word "Every child deserves a parent but not every parent deserve a child". Chloe wants LOVE,she saw how EVERYONE loved Ladybug but came to learn that being a hero,being a good person is more loved than her. Everyone wants happiness and love,REAL loving person. I believe the reason why she became a villain is not because she is a spoiled brat,it is because she wants LOVE. And she had the wrong person as parents and the wrong hero. Not to mention there is more to this than the show. Thomas legit said that she can't get abused because she is rich,like BROTHER WTF?! In my OPINION Chloe isn't a narcisisst. She is a VICTIM. Her parents? Oh-so-great relationship. Friends? SUUURE CUZ SHE HAS PLENTYYYYYYY. A hero who isn't a teen stalker and a Mary Sue? YEAHHHHBH,CUZ LADYBUG TOTALLY FITS INTO ALLLLLLL OF THAT. Honestly at this point. Take the most powerful Miraculous from the hands of this CHILD. PLEASE. MARINETTE ISN'T EVEN THAT ENJOYABLE OR LOVEABLE MC! CAT NOIR MADE LESS MISTAKES,BETTER BACKSTORY,BETTER DESIGN,ISN'T THOMAS ASTRUC'S VIRTUAL DAUGHTER. I am sorry but Chloe is a VICTIM. And saying she did this to herself when all of her guides were either minors who should NOT be superheroes or awful people aka her mom and dad,what the fuck dude? She was of course going to do this! She had the WORST characters in the show to guide her (and yes I am including Mari in this,cry about it) Honestly I feel like if they showed she had the wrong teachers and stop victim blaming this CHILD. I would have been fine. If the reason for her disredemption was wanting ONE LOVING PERSON IN HER LIFE I would have loved that! Also can we talk about her parents? Why the FUCK does Andre get a redemption arc? He could have just rented a babysitter to give Chloe manners but he couldn't give less of a shit! Eighteen years of being an awful parent to a once innocent child is more acceptable than being a high school bully? ANDRE WAS GOING TO CUT SO MANY TREES IF IT WASN'T FOR FUCKING CHILDREN TO PROTEST,AND HE DOESN'T GET CALLED OUT BUT CHLOE HAS AWFUL PARENTS,LADYBUG IS AN ABSOLOUTE BITCH THAT TEACHES WRONG LESSONS,SHE HAS NO FRIENDS,NOT LOVED,HATED BY EVERYONE,IF IT WAS LEGAL HER PARENTS WOULD JUST LEAVE HER IN THE DUST,HOW IS SHE A NARCISISST BUT NOT A VICTIM?! I GENIUENLY DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT WHEN IT COMES TO THAT! AND I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GIVE MYSELF PROOF SHE IS A NARCISISST FOR 3 FUCKING HOURS.
The reason I hate this arc is because they made her an unfunny character unlike in Season 1 and it is annoying to me.
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!
@@red-rika4070 xD
All though I think Chloe looked good as a good guy and wish she was still good, you have a point. I don’t’t hate you for this.
of course. let it be clear that I like everyone else, do wish it was a real redemption arc, and for that reason I can't like this arc.
but I can't deny that this was a really well written arc regardless
will admit i was disappointed(not upset like other) of what happen in miracle queen but after reading trivia on her wiki page help change my mind on it making me realize that chloe never change was still spoiled brat from day 1 of series
@@timothylyons1529 yeye. it's really cool that we still thought it was gonna happen inspite of everything showing that it wasn't. 😂
@@flakyseasalt I really think she was becoming a better person for real in season 2.
@@ethancox9737nah. even in season 2 were moments where she didn't show much progress. like I mentioned in frightengale
@@flakyseasalt Maybe, but it could have been just a slow burn.
I honestly still think it is terrible to make someone who is a bully like chloe not redeem herself. A lot of people believe that people who bully are never capable of redeeming. Like Thomas said about Chloe, she is irredeemable🫤. I personally think this show is trash for making Chloe not irredeemable, in My little pony for example, them making Cozy glow not redeem herself made more sense since Twilight literally put her in the my little pony version of hell which let's be honest wouldn't redeem a kid that got the wrong version of what friendship means. Chloe not being redeemed is just so stupid to me. They could have just made her a bad person to begin with, and too far gone. If their goal was to make her a failed redemption arc, then they did a horrible job at this. Like i said Cozy glow failed redemption arc made more sense than Chloe's redemption arc which is wild since Cozy glow is suppose to be a kid who clearly didn’t have the right people in life to help her realise what she did was wrong. Cozy glow not redeeming herself was only Twilight's fault, and the show actually did a good job showing that. There is no good enough excuse for why exactly Chloe is irredeemable. If the show did what My little pony did with Cozy glow. They could maybe make it ladybug's fault for being the main reason why Chloe would never redeem herself. It would not only make Ladybug look bad for once. It will be even a better character development if Ladybug realises that she was the reason for Chloe not redeeming herself and her blaming herself for the mistake. It will honestly make Ladybug less like a perfectionist and more flawed. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter since we can't change the present, and Chloe will forever be irredeemable unless they find a way to make her realise her mistakes.
We shoudl try to get this video to more peoples attention guys!!!! Like and comment or tell ur fav miraculous TH-camrs or fans to try to cover this. Go to smaller miraculous creators and tell then too!! Its a unique way of thinking that doesn't double down with the wave of people who disliked the arc and VERY VERY LOGICAL
you're support is mad appreciated
SPREAD THE WORD
I saw a tweet by thomas saying something like "we tried to give her a redemption but it was agreed by all writers that it felt too off character of her"
i still can't wrap my head around this bs. i mean it's possible, but it was only the second season, and it had been only like what, 2 years of miraculous at that point?
and how the heck it feels off character of her to become better and grow up but not everyone else? like andre??? like if it felt off character of chloe to become a better person, it DEFINITELY should feel off character of andre as well, if not a lot more! he's a grown ass man!!
thomas also said "anyone in her place wouldn't want to change" yeah if that's the case, anyone in Andre's place wouldn't too ig?? what's wrong with wanting to be better even when if it's coming from a place of privilege? Thomas is focusing so much in arguing "realism" that he literally forgets it's a fictional character we're talking about. and most of all you can use these exact types of characters to show that anyone, ANYONE, can grow and be a better person if they wish to be. to say a 14 year old is irredeemable is just too messed up.
@@AarnaAmbardar-n5d Andre??? the ice cream man????
@@flakyseasalt YEP HES CREEP
@@flakyseasaltI think they meant Chloe’s dad
I love the background of this video; it helps me focus on the video and not open another tab.
thank you! lord it took me so long to make it
20:34 WORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD everything that u tie into this arugment is so well done keep the effort up!!!
I really want Jeremy Zag to bring back Chloe Bourgeois as a good guy in future seasons.
love the background it helps me foucus more and love ur character!!!!
thank you! worked hard for this aesthetic!
Honestly yeah, I hate this arch so much and wish she actually did get redeemed but at least it's actually good writing! But, I do despise what they did with her character in Season 4 and Season 5, she just awful there.
@@Errorrrr22 yeahhhhhh.
I can't bare with Chloe most of the time. I do wish she won her redemption
19:08 THIS YES WORDDDDD
24:19 ima say this again WORRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDD
will admit i was fine either of what they did with chloe may they redeem her or leave her as villains i was fine
I'm glad that I'm not the only one that loved the writing revolving Chloe's failed redemption arc.
If feel like Chloe doesn't want attention she wants LOVE AND FRIENDS. She only had a teddy bear and Adrien,I feel like this is the fault of her parents and not to mention Marinette did mistakes that lead to this but she does not get punished to teach Chloe to get a better person and they don't punish her but Chloe,who is the victim here. I feel like it is just victim blaming.
Your trauma is an explanation for your actions
But never an excuse, at the end day Chloe should still be held accountable for the decisions she made in the present day
Trying to dismiss everything as her parent's or Marinette's fault just actively removes Chloe's own agency as a character.
I am saying that the reason why this had a chance of happening in the first place is her tutors,Chloe should still be punished but I feel like Andre and Audrey should be punished too. Marinette.... She is still a teen but she SHOULD get the punishment for that level of stalking
*meant
I think you make a lot of great points, and with any other show I would likely agree with you!!! I think this arc ultimately was relatively well-written, you’ve convinced me of that, although given that this is Miraculous I have doubts that it was intentional 😕 Given the rest of the show’s shaky writing and the back-and-forth between writers between seasons 3-4, I think it’s more likely that this was kind of a happy accident, and that Chloe might have had a continued redemption arc (albeit a flawed one) in S4 if not for Astruc’s dislike of her and that possibility. Your video has given me some things to consider though and it’s nice looking back on her arc as a masterful failed redemption arc rather than a mediocre redemption arc cut short lol
@@olive9097 I've read up on people mentions of astrucs dislikes to Chloe and all related. as far as I've seen he doesn't hate Chloe.
in fact he himself has said he focused on keeping her in character is why he decided the redemption arc would fail cause of it. and I think what I mentioned is a major reason why. even tho there was a back and forth Thomas still has a general flow he wanted season for the season 2-3. and it's pretty clear
especially when most of the good actions she had in season 3 were repeats of actions in season 2. confirmed it for me. cause that's how people in actual toxic relationships get you LMAO
@@flakyseasalt Personally, I think it would have been perfectly in character for her redemption to stick, and that Thomas Astruc was lying when he said that.
@@ethancox9737 it would have been in character. given the correct responses. but Chloe wasn't given those correct responses as I said in the video.
and to change any of marinettes approaches will make HER be out of character as she doesn't have the prior experience to know what Chloe needs to change. I believe that's what Thomas ment.
he however could have if he wanted to, create seperate arcs where marinette learned exactly what she needed to be able to help Chloe and that would have been in character. but I'm guessing to tell the story he wished to tell, it wasn't possible, my guess is episode per season issues.
you can argue he could have approached this differently. but he definitely wasn't lying. the way either character was wouldn't have been able to make the change work
@@flakyseasalt I still think it was a crummy idea to not have Marinette manage to redeem Chloe. I also think it would have been better if some of the adults got more involved in this whole thing.
fantastic vid
Definatly a very good episodde and shows how chloe truely is as a person inside. THNAK YOU! this hopefully gets talked about more IT REALLT NEEDS TO!
Nice video
Even though I hate the fact she didn't get a redemption arc, the writing in the leadup to miracle queen wasn't actually that bad. Even though I strongly disagree with you, I think maybe I can understand
@@Wandahoii.i buddy I did want the redemption arc too. you can accept the writing is good but not like it cause it's isn't what you wanted. I'm like that here too
@@flakyseasalt I know, I didn't like the writing of it as a whole though
you think this is what they wanted...but when you look at the directors twitter (i cant spell his name)
so even if this seems planned from the beginning, if you get the context from his tweets, it just seems like the writers wanted a redemption...but scrapped it due to the directors insistance of making chloe unredeemable...but somehow gabriel isnt (makes sense) even if it is a kids show, this doesnt excuse the characters (marinette's) stupidity or creepy behavior
if they did plan if from the beginning, they would've droped more hints and teasers about it...not randomly and drastically make chloe bad from seemingly outta nowhere, the only clues you can connect is the directors petty tweets and then zoey comming outta nowhere...no offense being a worse queen bee and desprately just trying to be a cheap replacement for the queen bee holder
i still pray she gets the bee back and zoey gets a new power but this aint it, im sorry and the whole chloe villian arc already ended and should've concluded at miracle queen.
at best this its still just bad writing, at worst (possibly) its the director having a fissy fit over the fandom
dont get me started at ladybugs identity rules not applying to everyone 💀💀💀
(I:E not giving the miraculous to chloe anymore cuz her identity is revealed...but breaking the rule several times, especially in the newer seasons)
i whole heart support this video there a time when people need to know that some people have no redeemable traits and should be let go
well my point was that Chloe was redeemable. it's just that all the wrong moves were placed to push her even tho it looked like good moves and that was kinda brilliant of the show runners to do
@@flakyseasalt i mean that some character are just better villains then other Chloe to me just wasn't the type or person to change without something to really push after season 5 that biggest push she could have. plus learning about her past just sort of explain more so why everyone literally throw a party to see her gone
Good logical video I like it!!