Still pinning the trigger then waiting for the reset? Here's why you are wasting your time.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ธ.ค. 2021
- Another episode from MSP and Reston Group on why pinning the trigger and waiting for the audible/tactile reset is a waste of time.
Honorable mention to JJ Racaza who initially showed the shooting part of this demo to Donovan Moore of Point 1 Tactics who showed it to me. It is used with permission from JJ.
Pardon the rifle fire in the background. there was a match going on on the rest of the range.
Finally if you disagree with me, then cool. But please state your disagreement based on the only metrics that matter, speed and accuracy. - กีฬา
![แฉ [2/4] 17 ก.ค. 67 “ลิลลี่ เหงียน” เปิดใจหลัง “เอิร์ก เลเดอเรอร์” ตอกกลับเรื่องโกงเงิน 50 ล้าน](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/s8KapfEO5NI/mqdefault.jpg)
The evolution of shooting is still continuing thanks to trainers like Scott. This is just another reason why I need to take classes from you. Thanks for all you do.
I feel like I should have paid a $20 tip for that 9 minutes of knowledge, Definitely need to take a class soon!
Right I feel bad over the years for watching all Scott’s knowledgeable videos it feels like I should’ve paid I feel like a cheap dirty bastard lol
He knows what he’s doing, I’m inbound for my second class… lemme tell ya it’s not all on video.
I just learned about him and looked into his classes. 75% of all 2022 is already booked. They go fast.
@@brandonmugele2224 I just checked out the same schedule, I found an event close to me in Oct. 11-12th. I'm going to try and make that one. It will be my first "professional instructor class.
@@douglassalley9117 Just finished my second class with him in El Paso. It is an intense 3 day course and you learn so much it is insane! You'll love it
As a competition shooter , the only time I take note of the reset on my pistol is on very long shots or when shooting strong or weak hand only. In any other high speed scenario , I’m relying on my grip and slapping away !
This is the way!
FACTS!!!
There is no weak hand.
I'm going to have to watch this video again, but while wearing electric muffs, so I can try to hear what's being said!!
They are at a gun range. What the hell do you expect?
@@mr.channel6467 Probably expected the comment not to be taken seriously, and have someone's fee fee all sore and make that response, obviously it's a joke.
I’ve always felt that shooting from the reset is useless. No one in a real gunfight is going to have the presence of mind to work from a tactile or audible reset- we’re going to slap the shit out of the trigger. We might as well train to that reality. Thank you for demonstrating this.
Banging on the trigger, like it was his sister 🤣🤣☠️ I love the way he explains things 👍 I’m glad I found this channel
This info is greatly appreciated! Thank you for sharing the logic behind it as well as the demonstration. Going out to the range to try this asap!!
I really need to take your classes. I am still a new shooter. Your videos have opened my eyes. They are the only ones that don't put me to sleep while watching them.
Thanks for the vid! 100% agree. I’m new to firearms and I had to learn this after learning how other ways didn’t work for the grip I needed with a micro compact. I didn’t realize how important the support hand can be in freeing that trigger finger.
Once you break the first shot. The gun has to recoil.Use this time to get off the trigger then as sights settle back on target you should have the trigger prepped and ready to break the next round. Let recoil be your friend. Prep,press like a butterfly.
I love watching the POI continue to evolve.
Best illustration of this concept that I have seen. Thanks.
This is the truth. I’ve been shooting 15 years as a hobby, in local competitions and 6 years on SWAT. Took a handgun class with JJ and in 8 hours became a substantially faster shooter with this trigger technique, it was like a lightbulb went off. You think you’re good till you shoot with guys of this caliber.
i used to train marines to shoot as a range PMI in okinawa japan, i must say this is very interesting concept and 100% right, this a great combat/marksmanship training that you guys are bestowing. good work gentlemen.
I took JJ's HSM class yesterday and taking Scott's class in Sep. Can't wait!!
Fantastic knowledge drop.
Slaying sacred cows.
Like Scott said, resetting the trigger is waste of time. I just finished a two day MSP course with AJ Zito in CA and taught this technique. Out standing course and well worth the price. 👍🏻👍🏻
Amen!!!!!! Pinning drives me nuts and trying to un-teach it is so much unnecessary work. Well said Scott.
Was taught to pin in all the formal classes I ever took. Have been trying to break the habit and hope to take a MSP class soon.
100% correct. We quit pinning the trigger and teaching that technique around 2001/2002 but folks are still teaching that technique and performing it.
Thank you for the outstanding video. I need to stop pinning the trigger.
You are my everything ♥ lol can't wait for the Michigan class
Um ok that made me a wee bit uno for table.
Haha just kidding for those that don't. Understand sarcasm
Wow great info . Thanks for your time
Why are people scared of change more shooting more knowledge? This was great. And under pressure, I would always forget the reset because I was trying to shoot fast and thought I was doing something wrong. 💯 it just fees more natural, thank guys....
I used the pinning technique when i was first learning to shoot to help me overcome recoil anticipation. I'm not sure why but for some reason, focusing on pinning the trigger helped me to stay steady through the trigger break. I pretty much stopped doing it after i got over the anticipation problem but I still do it when I'm trying to shoot very precisely at long range. I also do it with precision rifles. Maybe i should stop but if I'm shooting 100 yards with a handgun or several hundred with a rifle, I'm not really worried about speed. I'm not saying my way is correct though because I'm no expert and don't claim to be.
The drill at the end is gold.
Awesome video. Totally agree. I can personally attest to the support hand thing. Most guns I lose grip every couple shots and have to reset my support hand grip. I’m sure its my lack of training.
I can get a fucking death grip with my support hand on the pdp, vp9 and p320. Even though all three have high bore axis I shoot them faster and more accurately than other pistols. No doubt because of the good support hand grip.
Thanks for the great video.
not comenting on the main point of the video, just on the times u used to make your point. when u slap the trigger on 1 shot u just do 1 motion (.19). the other time was for 3 motion - release, stop, pull (.45). is like u will put 2 runners to do 100 yards, one starting from 0 runing till 100, the other one starting from 0 running till 50, stop and turning back to 0.
a more fair test will be to record the time on slapping the trigger on 3-4 shots then do the same for 3-4 shots with the short reset. or jf u want to test just 1 shot test 1 slap and 1 directly from the wall (without the reset) (wich was the fastest (.15)). for multiple sots the moving back of the finger to reset the triger it's a must if u want the gun to function a second time. the problem is if u let you finger go all the way forward then slap or u have enough traning to stop at the "wall" then do another shot. anyway, such small difference is to take into account in a shooting contest, i doubt will make a difference elseware
“Do it again but don’t be so slow” 😂
I am trying to unlearn this after shooting this way since 2003 in my LE career. It is very difficult to unlearn so far.
Saw this concept on Warrior Poet, John's "Off/On" commands when teaching it stick in my head. Really cool to see it applied with a shot timer here as further proof that is better. Now to practice forgetting the way I was taught with that reset and teaching my support hand to stop being such a bitch.
Be careful. The downside of this method is accidental discharges while learning, especially on guns with light triggers.
@@Libertarian_Neighbor you ain’t kidding but mastering this could lower splits.
@@Libertarian_Neighbor True, I've been dry firing mostly, its taking a while to break the old habits. Both have their limitations, the way I was originally taught, I have pulled the trigger too fast; it didn't actually reset and ended up NOT firing.
@@Libertarian_Neighbor yup so make sure to do it on the range and have plenty of ad's with it so you can learn exactly where the line is.
@@Libertarian_Neighbor I agree, but it's a training problem. Once you train enough it goes away. I find when I switch pistols it happens the odd time for the first few times out, however it really isn't the worst problem. The decision to fire had already been made, and if your grip and stance is proper, that extra shot will probably hit right next to your first one. When I got my cz shadow, I had tons of "doubles" because the single action is so light. I'd find 9 times out of 10 that the 2nd "accidental" shot was a charlie or alpha hit, and very rarely would it miss the target within 15 yards.
On my glock 17(polymer 80) i have the trigger set up to the point that it basically resets at the wall. There may be 1/32" of play in it. And the rest is amazingly audible. Not that that matters in a gunfight. But, I don't carry this gun because the trigger breaks at just a tad over 3 pounds. For myself, i want my carry gun to be 4 to 6 pounds for the break. The only other gun that i own that comes close to the way i have the 17 set up is my PDP and PPQ. But they are factory triggers. The most I'll do to a factory trigger is maybe a little polishing. But on the Walther's, i don't feel the need to do anything to them.
100% agree. At the indoor range I can hear clicks next to me when people are shooting but their accuracy still suffers greatly at 5 yards because their support hand grip is shit so even the less trigger travel of pressing at the reset can’t save them. Not to mention I think some focus so much on hearing the click they loose their sight picture trying to hear it.
Great debunk!
The bullet travels in the direction of whatever the muzzle is pointing at as you break the shot.
Slapping/jerking the trigger will often times cause undesired movement in the gun.
Solution: establish a firm enough (and sufficiently angled) support hand grip, so that it'll handle any violent trigger pull.
Can’t wait to train with him again!
So if people can watch this video and still think pinning the trigger is more efficient or better then they can not be reached.
Lead a horse to water, cant make it drink.
It’s better, but not for brand new shooters. Very easy to accidentally cook off a few rounds with this method. Takes training to be safe.
Everyone is different brotha I'm sure there are some that it works for them
@@Libertarian_Neighbor im 15 and have been shooting for almost a year. It took me like 50 rounds to learn immediate reset. And you’re right like 3 times i accidentally cooked off another round but it’s not a problem if you can control recoil. you’re right it’s definitely not the first thing i would teach someone.
jedi gold thanks so much for the nuggets!
Good info. Scott, where did you find that shirt though? It’s awesome!
Its from Viktos
on the prep ,is dry firing the way to develope the sence of being right at the wall? I can and do prep somewhere between the click and the wall becasue I have fired off a round pulling around to determine where my wall is?
Great info
thx Ted
I have such a terrible habit I need to train out of me. My habit is now reset/pressing which makes quick follow up shots high and low.
I break the first shot and as the recoil takes the gun me back to the next target I'm going back to the reset so that as soon as my sights are on I break the shot does that mean I'm doing it wrong?
I have sig 226 tacops with srt trigger did make mistake I bought it
It was cheaper sig sp2022 long trigger reset
I’m still waiting for the ACRO P2 review you promised us lol
What about the accuracy on the "slap" method with 3-5 rounds
Great video!
I was originally taught the pin and reset for rifle shooting because I was told it helped to stabilize the longer barreled weapon…aka, as the bullet travels down the barrel the potential movement of the trigger resetting quickly could move it slightly/enough that at 100+ yards it comes into play.
Thoughts?
Your finger isn't that fast. No way on earth you will affect the trajectory of a fired round by resetting the trigger before it clears the muzzle.
@@southernpartisan1772 it was more the uncontrolled movement of the trigger and the associated hand. Instead of a squeeze and pin, some people’s exaggerated movements or flinching when firing could have a potential effect. It’s a sloppy movement improvement tactic for beginners.
PRS guys try to freeze, to not move the finger at all when the shot breaks and then they keep watching to get info from the shot instead of ejecting the brass as quickly as possible. It all depends on the context what matters. In some disciplines dropping in percentage slightly can cost you the whole season and consistent wins make the championship. In olympic pistol and rifle shooting most got triggers that are highly adjustable exactly how they like it with pre-travel, resistance balance within the 'wall' (like 75-90% at the start and bit at the end for example) or some want certain overtravel others want none while it's often almost impossible to see movement while it's pressed. Does it matter at 5-15 yards shooting at substantially large area in rapid succession? Making up time when a your score is better when you're faster and still having some C's on said large target is fine. If you have to keep every shot in the size of a coin at 25 or 50m and you got the time to shoot in your zen moment between heartbeats it may make all the difference. Imo, different techniques for different distances and circumstances. In a situation forced upon you to react while your heart tries to attack you it's helpful to mitigate as much as possible of what the trigger finger might screw up and you need more hits on target. All fast shooting diminishes accurate shooting skills to some degree. One has to dedicate some time to keep it.
Very interesting....
Awesome
Can anybody give me direction or a link to his class on support hand grip he mentions this a lot or a few times in this video support hand grip. Just want to refresh anybody have a link or or I can find that.
👍🏼 yep
At competitions, if I'm missing difficult shots with my pistol, I slow down and revert to pinning and it seems to work. Lots of trainers out there are now denouncing pinning so I guess it's time to get to another class (I haven't taken one in over 3 years) and learn why what I'm doing is obsolete.
I don't think your technique is wrong bro. I think there are different techniques for different competitions. I compete in tactical games and I'm not that great at it BUT, the goal is to bullseye shoot at distance with a high heart. NO WAY would I be slapping the trigger or not working my resest. Different competitions need different techniques
Amazing info, as always, but my goodness this video needed a mic.
I kept trying to turn down the shots in the background. Headphones can have their downsides lol
Mind blown
I had not heard of the advice to pin and reset, though I’d heard that if you slap the trigger you must be able to hold the pistol very steady or your accuracy would suffer. I”ve heard the pin and reset on rifle marksmanship but I assume that was to not disturb the shot which could be still exciting the muzzle. Or is that BS as well?
It sounds effective if I could understand it. Best I can tell, grip hard with support hand then go ahead and slap. Is that it?
This is going to be a hard habit to break.
I was just telling a buddy that if he adhered to a fast cadence of 4+ rounds, he'd never "click-bang".
Dan horner said this. Grip matters. U should be able to slap the trigger with a dowel if your grip is right it'll shoot straight
HOLY FUCK STICKS!! Thank you!
BOOM
I plan on attending his red dot class in July. For those of you here have been to his class. What brand ammo did you bring to his class? The instructions says to bring 1000 rounds of reliable ammo. Is Tul Ammo reliable? Lol
You’re fine with that if your gun can run it.
@@ModernSamuraiProject thank you Scott! I will see you in July.
Did you go
Heard TGO say in a video that everyone slaps that trigger when they are going fast. Everyone’s finger leaves the face of the trigger. Learn to slap that trigger without disturbing anything too badly.
Good video, hard to hear
There should be a donate link to educational videos like this
This goes against everything I’ve ever been taught. So for speed you just slap the trigger and maintain accuracy with a solid support hand grip? And for more precise shots, you prep the trigger before firing?
Yep
Tell them to stop shooting in the background, Jedi dropping knowledge…funny when he said down range I said down range
I do that all the time with Jedi when he asks rhetorical questions. I'll verbally recite exactly what he's about to say. Love it.
so many LEO/MIL pin the trigger, it's annoying. What's more annoying is when they tell me that I need to do it too
Is Scott rockin a GBRS shirt?
Nope. It’s a Viktos shirt.
How do I take classes?
www.modernsamuraiproject.com/shop
Did the guy at the start make any sense?
No. Sounds like drunk dude at the bar.
I feel like I’ve wasted my life
😂😂😂
Learning is good.
Dang time to unfuck my training scars.
Does anyone else want to barf when they see "guntubers" doing this click bang BS? I almost never finish watching videos from that outlaw guy, or IV8888...... Thanks for teaching everyone the correct use of a trigger. Especially how when the trigger is pinned, your gun is useless.
Can’t hear him half the time 😂
The pin time was longer because he had to let it out then back in but the slap he just had him pull straight back so for the slap he should’ve started in the same position which was all the way pulled back. I still think slapping is faster but the experiment/demo was very biased
Incorrect. The start position is where your trigger finger would when the slide is perceived to be back in battery. When pinning it is pinned to the rear. When slapping it is slightly off the trigger. When prepped, it is on the trigger at the wall.
Having used both methods I believe the latter to be better, but it requires more training. Invariably, when I teach someone to prep during recoil they have an AD.
I increased my pull weight on my carry guns after training with the new method. Anyone who has been in a stressful situation understands that a firm wall is your friend.
If you haven't made the conscious decision to shoot why is your finger anywhere near the trigger?
@@APDECHO2 This whole video is about follow up shots. And I’m talking about accidental (negligent) second shots. It’s not good to send negligent discharges down range immediately after your first shot. The finger is on the trigger because you already shot.
@@APDECHO2 I’ve only been in one stressful situation when my dog was attacked by a mountain Lion. The adrenaline dump made me near useless and the heavier wall is better in such situations. It’s very easy to panic and break the trigger too soon, either on the first shot or follow up shots.
Voice issue 😐
I don’t think this guy is the best trainer for beginners. He’s more of a re-trainer. He retrains already experience shooters. New shouters wouldn’t understand half of what he’s talking about.
It’s a good thing no one cares what you think.
@@ModernSamuraiProject 😂😂😂😂 truth
Good training advice here. I would suggest that you not ask the students that are there to learn, to answer questions that they are just guessing at. It brings nothing to the training experience.
Thanks for the feedback. You are incorrect though. It reminds them of how and why they were introduced to a concept. The premises behind the concept and why the concepts are inefficient.
Give someone a LEM trigger. If they are pinning instead of prepping it will be very apparent. I shoot LEM and still bang out accurate 0.18-0.20 splits due to properly prepping the trigger. Reset is the most overrated feature on a semi automatic handgun
The lem trigger is the worst trigger on a semi automatic handgun..
@@bulleit9459 and I’m still fast and accurate with it. Must not be that bad
@@K-bob_45 sure, if you put in the time you can be fast and accurate with a hi point.
@@bulleit9459 mmmm. Idk about that. Maybe you could get fast but idk about accurate. Point being if you aren’t Rob Leatham or you aren’t shooting at the bianchi cup your trigger isn’t what’s holding you back.
@@K-bob_45 sure you can. Kyle Busch can drive a Prius around the track better than most people that can drive. But how much better is he going to be in his nascar. My ex was a border patrol agent and was issued the HK P2000 with LEM trigger. I’m a master class uspsa and idpa shooter in multiple divisions. Could I shoot the LEM? Yes, but I personally think it sucks. Now granted thats also my opinion. Although I know many top tier shooters that agree with me. A crisp clean break on the lighter side is the preferred trigger. Whether it be for fighting or competition. The LEM, yeah it was smooth, but I just couldn’t stand that stacking with no pronounced wall. I don’t know your skill level but if you’re doing well with it who am i to tell you different? But better gear allows the shooter to express his skill to a higher level.
You know what would help....... nobody shooting while you are talking........
🤦🏻♂️
Isaac Newton would like a word with you.
Oh here it comes. Some half ass application of physics without provable metrics. Go ahead man. Fire away. Be warned though just had a Physicist come to my class and he said the concepts are perfectly in line with Newtons 1st and 3 rd laws.
I'm real curious what Newton would have to say. Please pass along his message Devon.
@@ModernSamuraiProject My apologies for the delayed response. TH-cam doesn't notify me when people reply, and I have no idea why. I no longer remember why I couched my objection in terms of physics, but I do remember the gist of my objection. It's your test at around the 7 minute mark. You're racing one movement against two, when in the real world, you still have to make both movements. Regardless of whether you are releasing just to the reset, or slapping the trigger, or anything in between, you still have to come off the trigger, which takes time. A PROPER test would be racing "pin the trigger, then at the buzzer, release to the reset and then fire" VS "pin the trigger, then at the buzzer, release all the way and then fire". I don't know which way the test would go... releasing to the reset is a shorter movement, but precise movements are often slower than gross movements. The point I am making, however, is not about which is better, but that appropriate tests must compare apples to apples.
The whole concept of shooting off the reset is flawed and garbage. How will that be useful while shooting a DA/SA revolver or DA/SA semi-auto? The only thing it works on are single action semi-autos and modern striker fired pistols. It's a bunch of crap and mallninja kung fu!
Look up Jerry Miculek on revolvers and Ernest Langdon and JJ Racaza for Beretta 92s. Then pick up a newspaper and realize it’s 2023.
@@ModernSamuraiProject
It doesn't matter that is 2023. I have been shooting like this since 1982 and won't be changing anytime soon. Do you always have to tell Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan and Eddie Van Halen they are doing it wrong and need to change? It's not likely to happen anytime soon son!
@@ModernSamuraiProject
Massad Ayoob and Lt. John McLane...ever hear of them before?!
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I have shot handguns like this for 41 years and counting. I cannot use or adapt the modern thumbs forward grip ever so popular today used by newer shooters. In theory this is the proper way to hold a handgun. Your thumb isn't hitting the slide stop causing a failure to lock the slide to the rear o n the final shot. Your thumbs are nowhere near the slide slowing the cycle speed down causing self inflicted malfunctions. You won't accidentally hit the magazine release and drop a magazine. You won't make contact with any decocker levers. Almost ALWAYS you will have superior accuracy and be much more accurate using this hold compared to the "kung fu" modern thumbs forward grip. This is the way I was taught to shoot when I first started and until around the year 2005ish never knew or saw any different. My background also leads to shooting paper and measuring group size at distances over 10 yards and most often at distances of 15 - 20 yards. The thumbs forward grip is ok if you are ringing steel but stinks on pinpoint accuracy on paper. Usually the louder and more arrogant the newer shooter is the worse I spank them in the accuracy department each and every time using my grip. The firearm manufacturers had this in mind when they designed the handguns. See also the serrated notch on the front of the trigger guard? You aren't very bright to circumvent it using a hold that was never intended to be used in the first place. It reminds me of using your left foot to depress the accelerator in a vehicle even though the right foot is more intuitive and accurate!
I'm not defending anything here.. but WHO cannot be fast and accurate at THAT range?! Seriously. Maybe post a vid at 15 yards and show the same series of shots against that timer and check THAT accuracy. My blind grandma can hit at 4 yards with a domino flung from her house shoe.
You'remissing the point. This isolating and comparing techniques, not testing skills.
He's limiting variables.
If he did the drill at a bigger distance other things like over confirming sights can come into play.
@@joeld008 Well said Joel. One of the things I loved about his class was how he demonstrated skills at multiple speeds and distances as he taught each evolution. “OK, this is going to be 90-10 at ten yards, middle box, under one second from the holster.“ “Beep, bang, .91” R Stephens check out the MSP Black Belt Standards if you want more information on the accuracy and speed standards that Jedi pushes and guides his students to attain.
Show a video of your blind grandma shooting at that distance that accurate then maybe I will listen, maybe...
For someone talking about accuracy, you sure missed the point.
If this were true then Dot Torture would not take as many souls as it does at 3 yards.
I was just telling a buddy that if he adhered to a fast cadence of 4+ rounds, he'd never "click-bang".