Probably the most down to earth and least affected Batgap guest yet. No complex system, no new age gazing/smiling, no fanciful ideas about other dimensions, other beings. Kind of a relief. Great job interviewing too.
This was a Grate interview and will go on my best of BatGap list, Salvadore has a nice straight no nonsense approach to What is, i would have loved to had him for a teacher. 5 stars for me . Thanks you both
Excellent interview! Loved his clarity and willingness to say 'I don't know'. One of the best interviews I've seen on BatGap. Thank you, Rick and Salvadore.
He's one of the few that makes sense. Without strange clothes, a soft voice and a funny adopted eastern name. I like him much. He 'knows' as I know reality to be. Cool. Thank you, Rick for talking to him.
I had the incredible fortune of meeting Sal and eventually working with him last year. Having spent a few years before that being a 'seeker on the spiritual path', the sessions brought me incredible relief and almost instantaneously wiped clean all the fantasies I'd harbored about the state of 'enlightenment', in no small measure due to the books I'd read, and the Gurus I'd worked with. I still talk to Sal once in a while, but it's mostly to ask him how his music is coming along. Or Dick Cheney, of course. :)
For me, this was an interview that highlighted the great value that Rick brings to the table as a participant in these conversations--his own awareness and thoughtfulness, and his persistent but unaggressive questioning. I got a lot out of this one because of both Rick and Sal.
I had the same experience sitting one day and just feeling how all seeking flowed out of me and never returned. What a relief. I started avoiding other seekers (and I am still there) as I don't know how to describe that life goes on exactly as before, there are no fireworks in every moment, just no judgement of what I am experiencing nor seeking anything else. Very ordinary but deep peace. It is as if I participate fully in what I am doing now. I also agree that the only purpose of seeking is to see that you are seeking something that cannot be found, as the seeker is already it. This interview resonates so much with me. Thank you.
Wonderful and freeing speaking from someone who has been searching and has come to the same freedom...at last. But it is such a joy to have this all looked at with common sense and greater understanding and appreciation for life as is. Thank you, thank you for being you Rick and Sal.
Bravo! "Eternity exists in the present moment" There is a simplicity available in this realization (with all due respect for everyone who points to a path.) Thank you Rick for presenting those who speak of things that apparently are not aligned with your particular opinions/learning. There is a succinct humility, and a relevant freedom inherent and available that exists outside the realm of "knowing" in the sense of the intellect ...rather the surrender to "not knowing" or in other words granting power to "what we don't know that we don't know" is where freedom may exist for some and produces a knowing that is authentic, nurturing and sustaining.
I did have a mind expansion while meditating where I became a whole landscape, i felt insects walking over me and at the same time I was them, and a waterfall and so on . So knowing that we are one with everything can be quite spetacular, not only banal and everyday experience. I dont understand why many of these awake people say is nothing different from everyday experience. It was an amazing, unforgettable...
Hey Sal ! I bought the Kindle version of your book. I just started the "No Head" experiments, quite at the beginning of the book. It is so far very interesting (I love Douglas for instance). I usually stick to simple self enquiry and avoid books and concepts, but I am interested in the fact that you do not provide concepts to study, but instead little exercises to practice so we can see for ourselves. I don't have huge expectations, I just hope your book will give me some insights. I will follow your instructions carefully and see. Thank you.
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+Salvadore Poe Hey! Thanks for the work you are doing, (even though YOU are actually NOT doing it). :-) All jokes aside, I felt a strong connection to what you are sharing, therefore I had no choice but to buy your book. Thanks
Thank you for a nice interview. I liked the very relaxed view on awakening Salvadore Poe had. And you did a very good job interviewing him Rick. A nice conversation with a taste of the practice at the end. There has been many good interviews at batgap and this qualifies as one of them in my opinion.
+Mary Gwen Dungan Those who keep paying attention to the moving picture... remain lost in "what is happening" and "what is next". Those discover the screen and start paying attention to it, discover that which doesn't change.
+Mary Gwen Dungan not sure what you mean by "nut". Urban dictionary has following meaning: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nut I hope that is not what you mean. I assume you mean crazy, unusual, weird, strange, uncommon. With that assumption, I have no issue with being seen as nut by you, by others like you or even by few other people. Many people think people who spend hours discussing professional sports, watching tv, eating chips, drinking soda and beer, cursing government, shopping for 50th pairs of shoes, watching porn, watching tv soap operas, watching wrecking ball video normal and the people who spend time on spirituality mental, crazy or unusual. I have no issue with that view. I think I am quite unusual. I think many people who follow spirituality seriously are quite unusual. I think people who followed Sri Sathya Sai baba or Basher were quite unusual.
+TOA (Transmission of Awakening) Well we are all nutters,but really none of us are...or the only nutter is IT (or use the word God, the Absolute,Brahman etc.). And Miley on her wrecking ball is just as much IT as a holy man sitting in Samadhi. It is all the Imagination of IT,all the play of Brahman...nothing is spiritual or unspiritual(the word is too loaded,too inclined to make one feel special). Everyone is It,or better expressed IT is everything. One ''thing''(no thing for the dogmatists)expressing Itself as everything,experiencing everything. Myley Cyrus is just as ''spiritual'' as the Budda. The heroin addict is just as much on the ''spiritual''path as one of these batgap gurus. And it would probably be more pleasant spending an hour with the smack addict than with one of the latter gurus.
+Mary Gwen Dungan I don't mean to generalize all TV, movies, Internet and spirituality to be the same or equal. We generally choose things that match our level of intelligence, intellect and maturity. Children find child toys exciting. Same children when they grow up, don't find those toys exciting or engaging any more. There was a time in my life when I found fictions very exciting. I lost interest in them long time ago. There was a time when I found porno movies interesting. I lost interest for them long time ago. There was a time when I found watching sports very engaging. It no longer excites or interests me. Same thing with a lot of media, news and tv. As I grew up, my interests became much simpler - walking in nature, temples, meditation, hiking, watching sky, watching water, watching ocean, watching lake, rivers, flowers, plants, working, eating, sleeping, sitting quietly, appreciating the food I eat, loving the ground under my feet or butt, thanking God for this moment...
I was very impressed with Sal's interview. He seems a bright, sincere guy who has been helpful to many people. After listening to this interview, though, I wondered if what Sal and his students are "getting" is truly the realization spoken about in Advaita. One teacher I studied with described what he called something like realization of a "personal self" (I don't remember exactly what he called it) that was between complete identification with the ego and the realization of the individual soul (jiva). He said that this realization can bring an end to seeking because it is a radical realization that feels like the "me" that has always been present throughout life and is present in the now too. But he said this is just a beginning of awakening and warned that seeking will come back to motivate the seeker to seek the soul and beyond.
I have heard from some of my favorite teachers (Adyashanti in "The End of Your World") that awakening and the dropping of all concepts feels terrifying and annihilating. Salvadore did a great job of bringing me to that feeling, moreso than ever before, in this interview. He is a really effective communicator, given the limits of words when it comes to this realm of life. Thanks Rick and Salvadore for a very productive and illuminating back and forth. Now I have to face whether I really want to take that leap. Glad to get there.
+Mary Gwen Dungan I am very attached to some of my concepts and stories. I can see, for example, where I have conceptualized the idea of "god" and that "life conspires for my benefit".They have carried me through some very hard times. Not sure what will happen if I unknow that. Dropping stories is dropping everything I know and the building blocks of this personality, so it really is a leap into the unknown. As I listened to Sal, the stories I have attached to thoughts became clearly apparent. Tolle, Adya, Pema Chodron, have all talked about how we construct the persona. Maybe I heard that enough that I finally saw it clearly during this interview? So now I am in a place of "now what?" I clearly see how the stories can be dropped through inquiry, but I only have the word of many teachers that what is on the other side is better.
+Mary Gwen Dungan I think that hobbies and preferences are different from what may be core beliefs? Maybe I am just beginning to recognize a deeper level of not knowing? Also, I'd have to go back and take a look at particular teachers, but it seems that many of them changed profoundly?
+Mary Gwen Dungan Someone in this thread recommended the Jan Frazier interview, which compliments Sals interview nicely. If interested, you might want to give it a watch. She describes the changes one can go through very well and I related to her in many ways.
+Mary Gwen Dungan For me, batgap is like mining for nuggets :) I've had an extremely strong response, resonance and gained insights from some of the guests. I've also discovered that in many cases, there is nothing there for me and I can't seem to relate on any level. However, I recognize that just because there is nothing there for me with a particular guest, they may be offering exactly what someone else needs to hear. It all has value, but maybe some of it is just not meant for me?
+Mary Gwen Dungan Maybe some interviews teach the listener the power of discernment, which a skill that is very necessary to have in order to navigate life?
Truly start valuing and appreciating your food and feeling truly grateful to those who work to provide it and a lot of stupidity gets cured real fast. Truly start realizing that many people on earth can't afford decent meal, food is a real blessing and you are truly blessed to have food and full belly and a lot of stupidity gets cured real fast. Not realizing and not being truly grateful the treasure, the grace and blessing that you already have is the root cause of discontentment, dissatisfaction and many other mental ailments. People who have Internet connection, electricity, food and about two hours of free time to watch videos of this kind are truly blessed and are truly well taken care of. Realizing this is the cure of many mental problems. There is no need for any freaking enlightenment. Just be grateful for the very body, very life you already have; nothing else is needed.
No one can cure an ungrateful heart. No one can cure a heart chooses to act blind to the grace and blessings one is already enjoying right in this moment.
+TOA (Transmission of Awakening) The world has a way of bringing us to what you speak of. We suffer until we surrender. Once surrendered we become present and presence brings the gratitude you speak of. We are very blessed, you are right.
Nice distinction between Aware and Conscious during sleep. Love that. Also like the reference to the ebb and flow between presence functioning in daily life and absence in wholeness. Presence/absence as I say it anyway.
Rick, in your insisting that there must be progress and growth and more, you truly miss that the recognition is our perfection right now, with no need to do anything, get anywhere, become anything else. Only a person would be able to do any of that, and the recognition is that the person doesn't exist.
+Hanle de Beer It's a both/and thing. The other day I read something that Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, said. (I'm not into Christian Science, but I liked the quote): "Progress is usually thought of as having to do with time - moving toward something. And completeness is usually thought of as the end result of progress - a time when things will finally be complete. But completeness is the starting point of all that is real, and progress is the unfolding of completeness in all its multifarious details."
Yes. that sounds good. But ultimately all it is about is whether you see in this moment that which is real or not. One may notice that the personality start to behave differently in time, which I guess could be called progress, but that which you are, cannot. It is changeless and timeless. It is in the over complication of the way things are the expectation that more is to come, that awareness is lost and you return to seeking for something different than what is here right now. Anyway, thank you for your interviews. It is through some of them that clarity comes about one's own recognition.
+Hanle de Beer Appreciation of the fact that "progress" as I've defined it continues does not cause me to lose awareness of the changeless and timeless. In "my" experience, it's rock-solid.
+BuddhaAtTheGasPump Rick I agree with your point of view. I had a series of mystical experiences and shifts in consciousness starting 15 years ago, I practice vipassana meditation ( SN Goenka). For me, the continued practice of vipassana is a daily refresher on impermanence. I have experimented with not meditating - I don't lose my awakening, but I can see I am handling life better maintaining a meditation practice. I'm not in seeking mode anymore, but I feel I have much more work left to do on the spiritual path. I do feel (for me at least), meditation does help me stay alert to the contents of my mind, and the ability to be less reactive to whatever arises.
+BuddhaAtTheGasPump Rick, I discovered your podcast in early 2015. I've listened to probably half of all your interviews now. Some were so great, I've listened to a single interview 5 times! I have yet to come across an interview of someone who had an awakening that could be attributed in anyway to a vipassana retreat (SN Goenka). This was my experience. So many people have gone to these retreats - surely there are many other people with a similar experience? Have you done an interview with someone who's path was through Goenka style vipassana meditation? Just curious! I have mixed feelings about the Goenka retreats, but they represented a huge turning point in my life.
futility! the prime motivator. thank goodness i don't feel the need to buy your book, sal! (said with great respect and a dash of humor). great conversation, guys.
1 hour in and Sal seems like an honest,straightforward guy...not trying to build himself up or to live up to the experiences of Sages(as related by Rick-and which may be fiction,anyway) but just sticking to discussing from his own experience.
+glenemma1 But Rick insists on pushing his Meditation thing,that it was this which purified Sal,readied his nervous system etc. Might as well say that a major cause of Sal's awakening was the 25 years of drug taking which also preceded it. After all some people meditate every day for 45 years so there central nervous system must surely be ready.....and yet not awakened? Oh well,maybe after 60 years-more purification of the body/mind system needed.
+thomas seven Yes,I'm beginning to wonder if Rick actually knows anything experientially or if it is all just book ''knowledge''after all. In this interview he says himself that holding a belief is okay as long as you ''hold it lightly''. Yet his beliefs are unshakeable. 44 years of meditation without missing a day wouldn't be an attachment would it? I wish he'd take a couple of days off from meditating. It might be worthwhile,experientially speaking.
+thomas seven +glenemma1 Under the guise of “playing Devil’s Advocate”, Rick does have a tendency of taking the same two or three mildly interesting themes, like the ones you both mentioned, and then proceed to bludgeon his guest with them. It points to a peculiar inflexibility.
+Aves Raggiana I agree And there is a lot of fear there too .I think after all these years of pursuing a ''spiritual'' path and yet still working on that central nervous system a seed of doubt is troubling his sub conscious. And he will suppress this desperately. After all 44 years down a dead end street is not easy for anyone to entertain. And as Sal in this interview said.,his awakening came after he stopped meditating. It was his natural state when seeking stopped. But Rick is not seeking now that seeking has become a dirty word. He tells us he is actually ''exploring''.
+glenemma1 Watch enough of these BATGAP interviews and it becomes ferociously obvious where Rick's blind spots are. Still, all non-duality show hosts have them, and for all of Rick's limitations as an interviewer, his is still the most engaging interview show of its kind. Hint: don't bother with that blonde, terminally dumbstruck bimbo, Lilou Mace.
Very straightforward, practical kind of teacher(though he might have reservations about even being referred to as that). On occasion I intuitively resonate with certain guests that appear on the show(i.e., Francis Bennett., James Braha) and he's certainly one.
Very good interview with an excellent teacher. At 34:00 : An example of honesty. At 49:00 : Awesome point - alluding to "no real free will". At 55:00 : A great example of honesty, humbleness and authenticity. At 1:26:00 : Rick talking about many cases of reincarnation. to Rick, I haven't seen a single proven case of reincarnation. Please let us know if know of single proven case of reincarnation. At 1:38:00 : Rick in unwilling to let go of his idea of "spiritual refinement". At 1:50:00 : a great experiment. Take a break.
+HemmantJo From the book review on Amazon: ...We do get snippets of Stevenson's interviews with subjects who remember past lives, but these are disjointed and hardly rise to the level of "the scientific evidence." In fact, all Stevenson seems to encounter on these visits are fairly weak cases and dead-ends...
+HemmantJo Dr. Michael Persinger of Laurentian University who has many published papers on similar subjects says "the geomagnetic field of the earth contains a holographic record of everything that has ever happened within the scope of the field. This could help explain why human beings evolved into being in multiple locations around the globe simultaneously. This is why monkeys have been known to learn how to use a tool on different islands simultaneously without any help. This is why the same or similar myths arose in different cultures of the world who had no contact with each other. This is also, I believe, where the idea of reincarnation comes from. When people are consciously aware of past lives, they are tapping into the holographic source. This can even explain the origins of ghosts". So there are definitely other theories!
What i do not get, is that i always hear people telling "living in with this sage. That sage. When i look up, going to whatever teacher. It cost loads of money to even just rent something to live in for a few weeks. Was i always just to late? Even Mooji, who does not write books or asks money for his satsangs. It costs money to rent something where he is. A lot of money!
*A +2.0 on a -3.0 to +3.0 scale.* Disclaimers at the end of the comment. Good from both sides. He is also a good example for what the Tibetans mean when they speak of "knowledge veils". Assuming for the moment that this guy knows the essential nature of the mind while being left with zero cosmological insight or clairvoyance, the bodhisattvayana as presented by the Tibetan schools would place people like him pretty much at the beginning of the pure paths if he had any intention for the future to clear his mind of the rest of the veils for the sake of all beings. And I love his honesty about it which made it deliciously impossible for Rick to sink his hook into him for reeling in confirmation for his hindu prejudices. He is also a good example for why it is false to level the accusation at me that I "don't like people who sell books". I don't mind that at all if that is not at all the motive for bringing someone in for another interview or an influence that corrupts the by Rick stated purpose of the channel. *If the **_only_** reasons the interview is conducted are those pertinent to the by Rick stated purpose of the channel and the publishing of a book has nothing to do with it **_then_** if - as a kind of side effect - he has a book to present **_also_** it is actually quite welcome.* But don't think you can fool us there. *If there was such a thing as an epidemic of newly awakened people then those with a book to sell would be a rare exception among them.* _About the rating: anything below and including 0 means by and large a waste of time, and anything below 0 is not only worthless but damaging to the world. For comparison, on that scale, Francis Bennett would be a +2 or more and Harri Aalto would be roughly a tentative +2 to +2.5. Not coming up with original, independent cosmological insights bans any interviewee from > 2.0 ratings as a matter of principle._ *General Disclaimer:* _the rating pertains to an interview, not to the interviewee_. If the rating is high it means merely and exclusively that I consider the interview to be of high value relative to the stated purpose of the channel, and that it is therefore no waste of time to listen to the interview. It would _not_ imply that whatever the interviewee speaks is the truth (as if I was the arbiter over that) or that you should follow him/her or accept whatever that person offers. _That is particularly in need of emphasis if that would be an expensive enterprise_ !
+Soteriologe Soteriologe, I beg to differ with your brief assessment. I deliberated considerably before posting, as this fellow is a complex mix of insights and inconsistencies. There are so many points he touches on, alluding, perhaps without knowing it, to great philosophical questions, that it would take pages to begin. Your critique begins with “assuming for the moment that this guy understands the essence of the mind,” and that's key. What if we don't assume that? That's a big matzo ball left hanging, no? I have narrowed down the possibilities of filing this interview under: The Tao of Poe, Jimmy Crack Corn, Nolo Contendere, George Costanza (“It's not a lie if you believe it”) or The Wizard of Oz categories. So, Poe ripped back the curtain and found there is no wizard after all. Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and I don't care, my Master's gone away. He deflects all questions about the relativity of his truths by saying he just doesn't care. When asked by questioner John, whether he may have stopped looking for truth and just found a comfort zone, his response was an instantaneous “Is there a difference?” This is a crucial point, as it is the heart of his argument, and I do not profess to be able to answer it for him or me right now. I am sure he had a deep insight into the nature of seeking, so I in no way impugn his response; this is the kind of thing I alluded to when I said this interview is overflowing with salient questions, which would take pages to get at. Is there a difference between liberation and Truth versus just stopping seeking? Let's leave that for now. His argument about child development (45”), however, is risible, and is one of the reasons I would lower the rating to 1. He makes the pre/trans fallacy which Wilber himself made in Up from Eden, and regretted, and I will not draw that out here. Poe does not see that the development of ego is necessary and to some extent would happen even without society's influence. Toddlers have to develop a sense of ego or they cannot learn to be in the world (Piaget spent sixty books detailing this). Worse, he seems not tonotice that this very ego he despises so much is the very selfsame ego which he espouses as the identity which has never changed in him, making his argument comical. (This is enough to raise doubts even about the 1.) Ironically, he basks in the shadow of Mt. Arunachala of cherished Ramana, and then refuses to engage in the very atma-vichara which is the whole point of being there. He rests in the very vague sense of I, ego, which is the starting point of inquiry, realizing that, for him, that's enough; it is not the completion of a spiritual search, but the realization that he's not really interested. That's fine and it may be the truth for most of us, including myself. I wonder. There are different ordersof “not knowing.” There's the not knowing of someone who never looked; there's the not knowing of someone who looked and gave up; there's the not knowing of someone who found what Ramana, and others, found. Yet, all are not knowing. It is so hard to get at this; what is the nature of Poe's not knowing? Again, the interview is like an overstuffed chair; it resists facile analysis. He avoided this question when asked about his realization versus that of Ramana; I think he said nobody's more realized than himself (Poe), and that he has reached the terminus of all seeking, at least as far as he's concerned. How are we free if there is no free will? It appears our only freedom would be in seeing we have no freedom, since whatever we might will would itself be determined. Is that the idea? We are a complex of infinite and finite, this is not new, but the question is how the two relate. Poe claims more than he knows. He thinks he sees determinism, and there are good arguments for that, not the least of which is that one is never “there” where the decision takes place; one thinks, but one is somehow never where the deciding takes place. One never actually witnesses the process. However, to be honest, it is a mystery, not something we know for sure, because there are other questions and factors; we might be willing it, but not self-consciously, for example. If we are free, at the absolute level, then how can we not be free, since we are the source? Parenthetically, you mightbe surprised to know how much Hitler appreciated Eastern mysticism; the idea that it's all a play and there is no ego makes it much easier to engage in mass murder than it might otherwise be. His appropriation of the swastika is well-known but the breadth of his dalliance is dimly lit. Instead of his exercises(I don't have the book), which are probably biased to demonstrate what he wants to show, I fall back on my characteristic expedient of torture. I recall an interviewee who was honest enough to say it would take about three months of torment before he would be able to summon the will to distance himself from his bodily identity enough to endure it. There is no shortage of fools who think that truths uttered by mouth are the same as existential knowing; Norio does this clearly too. Who among us can take hard blows to the body, or being confined in a small space, hog-tied, etc. and survive it with platitudes like “It's all good,” or the Eastern, non-dual equivalent? Who among us would not break down, even before the first blow, and say “OK, kind Sir, I am not the body, but I am very closely related and if you slam me in the head with that bat it would hurt too much for my shallow book-understanding of how I am really not the body but the transcendental Self, or even Nothingness, please, please, please?” Is there such an exercise in his book, that might demonstrate the limits of his philosophical position or is everyone seated comfortably in a nice, ever so tidy, space avidly entertaining awareness? In sum, I think Poe is the right guy with the right message for the right person at the right time; there is great value in his questions and in his genuine insights, which I respect and admire. It's just that it's half-baked at the moment. He will attract people whom he can help, I think, so overall, despite my caveats, a few of which I put down here, he is a sincere man, with insights into profound matters. He has definitely stopped the mind and has seen the timeless, so that much stands. His conclusions are the issue. He should adhere closely to observation and to what he actually, honestly knows. If he lets people, no, forces people to make their own conclusions, not his, then his consultations are of value. I think his present position is a balance from the years of intense struggle, but it will not be his final position.
+jazzsnare Hi Jazz, I think you are assuming a conflict between our takes which may not be there for the following reasons: 1. ... and foremost because of my disclaimers. Your points were addressed by the interviewer and not trivialized. The interview and the interviewee makes it quite obvious that the realization of this guy doesn't get anywhere near that of a Ramana Maharshi even though he can't tell the difference (he doesn't say there is none). In the same vein I assume that he has probably seen what I think Anadi (or whoever it was) calls "the I AM within the body", that is the essence of the mind as it is funneling into the limitations of human consciousness and therefore fenced in by its cognitive limitations, and I had indicated as much in my rating commentary by speaking of the "knowledge veils". Although the recognized essence is the same, that doesn't make it the same realization. 2. You say _'Your critique begins with “assuming for the moment that this guy understands the essence of the mind,” and that's key. What if we don't assume that?'_ which is taken care of by the other side of the coin of the disclaimers I mentioned under 1. I am not responsible for a good fake. The interview was worth listening to. I also don't lean towards that interpretation because he had a better way of making a living through music. If a drug abuser threatening to go off the deep end reaches contentment that last a lifetime, listening to him can't do so much damage. 3. I don't recall where he committed the pre/trans-fallacy, please quote the time. 4. "Ego" is a word with a range of meanings in that context. 5. Of course, due to the limited depth of the realization he would very likely fail the torture test, just like this Radha Ma apparently did, according to what I get from the grapevine.
+Soteriologe Hello, Sotto voce. Having re-read your disclaimers I would clarify that I agree with the 2 as far as you define it; it's quite an interview, warts and all. I was getting more to the truth of the interview. Actually, I already gave the time for the pre/trans fallacy in my post, the one time I gave. Poe thinks that infants have an innate purity, which then gets lost and hopefully found again, which had best not been lost. As such, he misses the necessity of developing an ego, which is then transcended, which is not the same as never having left home. You gotta run the bases. Time is evil in his view, but is necessary for transcendence. The innocence of the infant, pre-ego, is not the same as the purity of transcendence, if these words suffice. One is not enlightened at birth, only to fall into evil. Simone Weil put it well when she said that we must become a fully developed ego with the task of deconstructing it and giving it all back, adding that, if we were to feel the agony of a lifetime all in one moment, no one would be able to survive it. (She's not that popular, you know.)
+jazzsnare Oh yes, you did mention the time, and you do not need to go to the length of explaining the pre/trans. But I don't see him really contradicting that, he just mentions that a new born is not identified as a separate yet. He doesn't claim that not having identified as separate yet is the same as building your own person and seeing through that as non-separate.
+Soteriologe He refers to the separation from mother as "original sin" at 45" and, elsewhere, I think earlier, he described the individuation process as a "corruption" from "society." I don't see how else to interpret this; it seems to clearly say that the process of building an ego, a central sense of agency, is bad, and seems to me to yearn for the original purity, prior to 1.5 yrs. of age, where one wasn't aware of anything. One who sees individuation and subsequent transcendence would not, I aver, speak in these terms. He has had substantial insights, but the way he tries to cobble things together detracts from his own purity. The reason I support him is that we can't wait for perfection, such as Ramana; there must be a place for those with good insights to help others. Even Ramana's teaching has its risks and pitfalls, as well, despite his greatness.
+Mary Gwen Dungan Yes. Thank you Mary. We have no choice and no freedom as only human beings. But we are not this. We are endless consciousness, that goes higher and higher (Deeper and deeper) with no end. As such, on some level of this, we made a choice to be human beings and live in a physical world. But we can also choose to live in any other way that we want. There is nothing that can block us from choosing freely, as consciousness, to live differently. All of our experience of existence is only in our consciousness. You have to know this experientially, not only intellectually, and then you know that you are free. We are free even before we know. But we don't believe it, and what we believe determines how we live. And it is impossible to truly believe without experiencing it.
+Giora Carmi I think people are shocked to realize they actually have no power or control like they think they do. Seems that until we surrender we are not able to embrace true presence and true absence. If we resist we cycle through our suffering.
Jesus, Buddha, all the great saints and sages, they all charged at least $150 an hour. You know, raise some dead, heal some sick, feed some poor, at least $150 an hour. No self respecting, even half way realized greenhorn would charge less than $150 an hour.
I think it better be at least $1500 (one thousand five hundred) an hour. People who are looking for enlightenment are quite stupid in my not so humble and not so kind or enlightened opinion. There has to be a good monetary compensation for dealing with such people. $1500 per hour seems right for most people. Once you run out of all your money, the reality becomes clear for many people. The stupidly gets cured really fast once you have to do real hard work to feed yourself. Free stasang or cheap, slow leak like $15 per hour can keep one addicted to stupidity for a really long time.
+Mary Gwen Dungan not charging money alone doesn't explain it. There are many gurus in India who charge no money but not everyone becomes famous and rich like Sri Sathya Sai baba. Many people believed Sri Sathya Sai Baba could do miracles. The miracles could be false or true, fake or real, fraudulent or genuine but if enough people believe them to be real, it is likely to bring great business. Jesus too is credited with many miracles. Even 2000 years after his death, Christians talk of his miracles. If people truly believe you could do miracles, success is very likely.
+Mary Gwen Dungan Oh $100 is nothing. I’ve gone to retreats and spent hundreds of dollars for one weekend, and it made me feel good for few days, but it didn’t get me anywhere besides that. I bought his book, but I felt like I needed a session to clarify a few things. And OMG, am I grateful that his sessions are ONLY $100. I’m so grateful! He helped me to recognize something that is so helpful and valuable, that released so much tension for me that I want to cry happy tears. AND all in the comfort of my home, didn’t have to fly to India, stay there for a month, lose a month of work, it could cost thousands of dollars just in travel costs. So I’m surprised you are making such a big deal about the cost of the sessions. He is taking his time out of his life to give such service and undivided attention. Why wouldn’t you want to give back for this gift? AND…why would someone do it for free in the first place? Even if you love helping people and do it happily, you need money to live. It’s just common sense though.. No? By the way check your math, it’s way off..
"Liberation is the end of the Spiritual Path"?.... 'Liberation' (if such a thing there be) by definition has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'spiritual path' (whatever that might be). Unless you can get that between your ears, you are pretty much bound to waste your life talking shit to yourself. And others.... As for the 'Self' - it is the human body, and, whatever else you have realized about its nature, it exists and, so long as you're alive and kicking, will persist in experience, because it exists. Particularly Now. So the question of 'being without the self' does not at all arise.....'Aware is free' only if awareness is not produced by the brain/nervous system - a fundamental issue on which the gentleman (perhaps predictably) did not touch....Meanwhile the implicit assumption that Jesus' influence on the world was 'benign' rather than 'malignant', being a hypothesis advanced without any supporting evidence, we will have to pass over...Perhaps we can all agree that Dick Cheney is a worthless cunt....But I'm not even Absolutely sure about that......
+Salvadore Poe No: my statement re: Jesus was a playful dig at Rick; but I thought you were concurring that 'Enlightened' people somehow have a 'benign' influence on the World (or, indeed, on other people). That is a monstrously controversial 'assumption', as I hope you would agree.....I will reply to your other comment later (gotta go out now) (if you're interested in reading it)....Many thanks for your replies anyway.
+Salvadore Poe Sal: I may well get and read your book, time (and money!) allowing.....However: It is, of course, me being pedantic, but liberation being the end of the spiritual search implies, if it doesn't actually state, that you have to be on something called a 'spiritual search' for it to end.....But Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie arguably the two most famous 'Enlightened' persons on the planet, probably hadn't even heard of such a thing before whatever happened to them happened. (The fact that they were soft-headed enough to make a bee-line for it AFTERWARDS is their problem (and that of their disciples).......There was a fellow named John Wayne Lewis who supposedly did a study (although how you would go about such a thing beats me!) which concluded that 75% of 'Enlightened people' had had no connection with 'spiritual stuff' beforehand. 75 is an enormous percentage and considering the number of people who are 'into spiritual stuff', at least on the sly, suggests that the aforementioned stuff is, if anything, a powerful OBSTRUCTION to 'Enlightenment'...............With respect to 'the self': - Contrary to the assertions of our 'benefactors': there can be no such thing as a 'meditative state' as distinct from Deep Sleep' (even if then!). Deep Sleep may be all very well (probably is); but it has no bearing, per sae, on a question which is being asked by and has to be answered by, the conscious mind....What calls forth the body from deep sleep is a demand by said body: to respond to a potential danger, to feed itself, to take a piss, or whatever. The danger, for example, has to be assessed, according to the mind/body's knowledge (which is the past) and acted upon with a view to obtaining security (from the danger) in the future. Whatever else has been realized by the intellect (about how the self 'fits into the grand scheme of things', or whatever): this movement from the past to the future constitutes the self, corresponds to the body and is a necessary component of experience (however subtle) because it's a necessary CONDITION of being awake (as I hope you still are!). To assert otherwise is to posit a 'transcendent' human being. There is no such animal; but the belief that there is is one of the things that lies at the root of our social structure which has brought us to the point of destruction. Not exactly benign, wouldn't you agree?......I've been rabbiting on - hope this makes sense. :)
+Salvadore Poe Ah: the usual cop-out: blame it on the followers. I cannot discover that St. Paul was any less 'Enlightened' than Jesus. But the misdeeds of Christianity are many times blamed on him. This is just scapegoating. Put the blame where it belongs, Sal. And keep it there.
+thomas seven What does "freedom from the known" mean?...Buddha (reputedly) said: "Life is suffering". He also (reputedly) said that Liberation is: "The end of suffering". A wise-guy, huh?....As clear as mud.
+thomas seven Sorry. Your comment came up as a 'reply' to me...Damned machines!..... But how do you know it was their desire for relief from suffering which precipitated the events you reference? We're all suffering, mate. Yer Man was right about that!
Probably the most down to earth and least affected Batgap guest yet. No complex system, no new age gazing/smiling, no fanciful ideas about other dimensions, other beings. Kind of a relief. Great job interviewing too.
This was a Grate interview and will go on my best of BatGap list, Salvadore has a nice straight no nonsense approach to What is, i would have loved to had him for a teacher. 5 stars for me . Thanks you both
+larz hillbot What's stopping you?
Excellent interview! Loved his clarity and willingness to say 'I don't know'. One of the best interviews I've seen on BatGap. Thank you, Rick and Salvadore.
Amazing interview.. Refreshing, and really enjoyed this :)
He's one of the few that makes sense. Without strange clothes, a soft voice and a funny adopted eastern name. I like him much. He 'knows' as I know reality to be. Cool. Thank you, Rick for talking to him.
I had the incredible fortune of meeting Sal and eventually working with him last year. Having spent a few years before that being a 'seeker on the spiritual path', the sessions brought me incredible relief and almost instantaneously wiped clean all the fantasies I'd harbored about the state of 'enlightenment', in no small measure due to the books I'd read, and the Gurus I'd worked with. I still talk to Sal once in a while, but it's mostly to ask him how his music is coming along. Or Dick Cheney, of course. :)
....an beautiful dance......blessings...thankyou....
Another great interview. Thank you!
For me, this was an interview that highlighted the great value that Rick brings to the table as a participant in these conversations--his own awareness and thoughtfulness, and his persistent but unaggressive questioning. I got a lot out of this one because of both Rick and Sal.
I had the same experience sitting one day and just feeling how all seeking flowed out of me and never returned. What a relief. I started avoiding other seekers (and I am still there) as I don't know how to describe that life goes on exactly as before, there are no fireworks in every moment, just no judgement of what I am experiencing nor seeking anything else. Very ordinary but deep peace. It is as if I participate fully in what I am doing now.
I also agree that the only purpose of seeking is to see that you are seeking something that cannot be found, as the seeker is already it.
This interview resonates so much with me. Thank you.
I found the concept 'the ego is always based on time' a very helpful reminder, thanks Poe!
+AlwaysBeNice Eckhart does a great job with that message. Ego doesn't exist in the present moment, only in the past and future.
Wonderful and freeing speaking from someone who has been searching and has come to the same freedom...at last. But it is such a joy to have this all looked at with common sense and greater understanding and appreciation for life as is. Thank you, thank you for being you Rick and Sal.
Great Interview Rick & Sal.....Thank You Judy
"Different people go different ways". That said it all Rick.
Bravo! "Eternity exists in the present moment" There is a simplicity available in this realization (with all due respect for everyone who points to a path.) Thank you Rick for presenting those who speak of things that apparently are not aligned with your particular opinions/learning. There is a succinct humility, and a relevant freedom inherent and available that exists outside the realm of "knowing" in the sense of the intellect ...rather the surrender to "not knowing" or in other words granting power to "what we don't know that we don't know" is where freedom may exist for some and produces a knowing that is authentic, nurturing and sustaining.
I did have a mind expansion while meditating where I became a whole landscape, i felt insects walking over me and at the same time I was them, and a waterfall and so on . So knowing that we are one with everything can be quite spetacular, not only banal and everyday experience. I dont understand why many of these awake people say is nothing different from everyday experience. It was an amazing, unforgettable...
Hey Sal ! I bought the Kindle version of your book. I just started the "No Head" experiments, quite at the beginning of the book. It is so far very interesting (I love Douglas for instance). I usually stick to simple self enquiry and avoid books and concepts, but I am interested in the fact that you do not provide concepts to study, but instead little exercises to practice so we can see for ourselves. I don't have huge expectations, I just hope your book will give me some insights. I will follow your instructions carefully and see. Thank you.
+Salvadore Poe Hey! Thanks for the work you are doing, (even though YOU are actually NOT doing it). :-) All jokes aside, I felt a strong connection to what you are sharing, therefore I had no choice but to buy your book. Thanks
Thank you for a nice interview. I liked the very relaxed view on awakening Salvadore Poe had. And you did a very good job interviewing him Rick. A nice conversation with a taste of the practice at the end. There has been many good interviews at batgap and this qualifies as one of them in my opinion.
"Spiritual explorer"? The silliness never stops :-)
+Mary Gwen Dungan Hi Mary: Rick was referring to himself as a spiritual explorer and was recommending that others too should adopt same attitude.
+Mary Gwen Dungan Those who keep paying attention to the moving picture... remain lost in "what is happening" and "what is next". Those discover the screen and start paying attention to it, discover that which doesn't change.
+Mary Gwen Dungan not sure what you mean by "nut". Urban dictionary has following meaning:
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nut
I hope that is not what you mean. I assume you mean crazy, unusual, weird, strange, uncommon. With that assumption, I have no issue with being seen as nut by you, by others like you or even by few other people.
Many people think people who spend hours discussing professional sports, watching tv, eating chips, drinking soda and beer, cursing government, shopping for 50th pairs of shoes, watching porn, watching tv soap operas, watching wrecking ball video normal and the people who spend time on spirituality mental, crazy or unusual. I have no issue with that view.
I think I am quite unusual. I think many people who follow spirituality seriously are quite unusual.
I think people who followed Sri Sathya Sai baba or Basher were quite unusual.
+TOA (Transmission of Awakening) Well we are all nutters,but really none of us are...or the only nutter is IT (or use the word God, the Absolute,Brahman etc.).
And Miley on her wrecking ball is just as much IT as a holy man sitting in Samadhi.
It is all the Imagination of IT,all the play of Brahman...nothing is spiritual or unspiritual(the word is too loaded,too inclined to make one feel special).
Everyone is It,or better expressed IT is everything. One ''thing''(no thing for the dogmatists)expressing Itself as everything,experiencing everything.
Myley Cyrus is just as ''spiritual'' as the Budda.
The heroin addict is just as much on the ''spiritual''path as one of these batgap gurus.
And it would probably be more pleasant spending an hour with the smack addict than with one of the latter gurus.
+Mary Gwen Dungan I don't mean to generalize all TV, movies, Internet and spirituality to be the same or equal.
We generally choose things that match our level of intelligence, intellect and maturity.
Children find child toys exciting. Same children when they grow up, don't find those toys exciting or engaging any more.
There was a time in my life when I found fictions very exciting. I lost interest in them long time ago. There was a time when I found porno movies interesting. I lost interest for them long time ago. There was a time when I found watching sports very engaging. It no longer excites or interests me. Same thing with a lot of media, news and tv. As I grew up, my interests became much simpler - walking in nature, temples, meditation, hiking, watching sky, watching water, watching ocean, watching lake, rivers, flowers, plants, working, eating, sleeping, sitting quietly, appreciating the food I eat, loving the ground under my feet or butt, thanking God for this moment...
I was very impressed with Sal's interview. He seems a bright, sincere guy who has been helpful to many people. After listening to this interview, though, I wondered if what Sal and his students are "getting" is truly the realization spoken about in Advaita. One teacher I studied with described what he called something like realization of a "personal self" (I don't remember exactly what he called it) that was between complete identification with the ego and the realization of the individual soul (jiva). He said that this realization can bring an end to seeking because it is a radical realization that feels like the "me" that has always been present throughout life and is present in the now too. But he said this is just a beginning of awakening and warned that seeking will come back to motivate the seeker to seek the soul and beyond.
I have heard from some of my favorite teachers (Adyashanti in "The End of Your World") that awakening and the dropping of all concepts feels terrifying and annihilating. Salvadore did a great job of bringing me to that feeling, moreso than ever before, in this interview. He is a really effective communicator, given the limits of words when it comes to this realm of life. Thanks Rick and Salvadore for a very productive and illuminating back and forth. Now I have to face whether I really want to take that leap. Glad to get there.
+Mary Gwen Dungan I am very attached to some of my concepts and stories. I can see, for example, where I have conceptualized the idea of "god" and that "life conspires for my benefit".They have carried me through some very hard times. Not sure what will happen if I unknow that. Dropping stories is dropping everything I know and the building blocks of this personality, so it really is a leap into the unknown.
As I listened to Sal, the stories I have attached to thoughts became clearly apparent. Tolle, Adya, Pema Chodron, have all talked about how we construct the persona. Maybe I heard that enough that I finally saw it clearly during this interview? So now I am in a place of "now what?" I clearly see how the stories can be dropped through inquiry, but I only have the word of many teachers that what is on the other side is better.
+Mary Gwen Dungan I think that hobbies and preferences are different from what may be core beliefs? Maybe I am just beginning to recognize a deeper level of not knowing? Also, I'd have to go back and take a look at particular teachers, but it seems that many of them changed profoundly?
+Mary Gwen Dungan Someone in this thread recommended the Jan Frazier interview, which compliments Sals interview nicely. If interested, you might want to give it a watch. She describes the changes one can go through very well and I related to her in many ways.
+Mary Gwen Dungan For me, batgap is like mining for nuggets :) I've had an extremely strong response, resonance and gained insights from some of the guests. I've also discovered that in many cases, there is nothing there for me and I can't seem to relate on any level. However, I recognize that just because there is nothing there for me with a particular guest, they may be offering exactly what someone else needs to hear. It all has value, but maybe some of it is just not meant for me?
+Mary Gwen Dungan Maybe some interviews teach the listener the power of discernment, which a skill that is very necessary to have in order to navigate life?
Truly start valuing and appreciating your food and feeling truly grateful to those who work to provide it and a lot of stupidity gets cured real fast.
Truly start realizing that many people on earth can't afford decent meal, food is a real blessing and you are truly blessed to have food and full belly and a lot of stupidity gets cured real fast.
Not realizing and not being truly grateful the treasure, the grace and blessing that you already have is the root cause of discontentment, dissatisfaction and many other mental ailments.
People who have Internet connection, electricity, food and about two hours of free time to watch videos of this kind are truly blessed and are truly well taken care of. Realizing this is the cure of many mental problems. There is no need for any freaking enlightenment. Just be grateful for the very body, very life you already have; nothing else is needed.
No one can cure an ungrateful heart.
No one can cure a heart chooses to act blind to the grace and blessings one is already enjoying right in this moment.
Lack of gratitude is the biggest crime against the God, nature and existence.
+TOA (Transmission of Awakening) The world has a way of bringing us to what you speak of. We suffer until we surrender. Once surrendered we become present and presence brings the gratitude you speak of. We are very blessed, you are right.
Have just bought the kindle book. Love Salvadore's honesty, just hoping his book will push me over the edge - so ready to give up seeking!!
+Linda Gumbleton Jump off. Your own surrender will push you over the edge. It will come. I can relate to getting tired. Been there
Mary Gwen Dungan Through surrender
Nice distinction between Aware and Conscious during sleep. Love that. Also like the reference to the ebb and flow between presence functioning in daily life and absence in wholeness. Presence/absence as I say it anyway.
Rick, in your insisting that there must be progress and growth and more, you truly miss that the recognition is our perfection right now, with no need to do anything, get anywhere, become anything else. Only a person would be able to do any of that, and the recognition is that the person doesn't exist.
+Hanle de Beer It's a both/and thing. The other day I read something that Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science, said. (I'm not into Christian Science, but I liked the quote): "Progress is usually thought of as having to do with time - moving toward something. And completeness is usually thought of as the end result of progress - a time when things will finally be complete. But completeness is the starting point of all that is real, and progress is the unfolding of completeness in all its multifarious details."
Yes. that sounds good. But ultimately all it is about is whether you see in this moment that which is real or not. One may notice that the personality start to behave differently in time, which I guess could be called progress, but that which you are, cannot. It is changeless and timeless.
It is in the over complication of the way things are the expectation that more is to come, that awareness is lost and you return to seeking for something different than what is here right now.
Anyway, thank you for your interviews. It is through some of them that clarity comes about one's own recognition.
+Hanle de Beer Appreciation of the fact that "progress" as I've defined it continues does not cause me to lose awareness of the changeless and timeless. In "my" experience, it's rock-solid.
+BuddhaAtTheGasPump Rick I agree with your point of view. I had a series of mystical experiences and shifts in consciousness starting 15 years ago, I practice vipassana meditation ( SN Goenka). For me, the continued practice of vipassana is a daily refresher on impermanence. I have experimented with not meditating - I don't lose my awakening, but I can see I am handling life better maintaining a meditation practice. I'm not in seeking mode anymore, but I feel I have much more work left to do on the spiritual path. I do feel (for me at least), meditation does help me stay alert to the contents of my mind, and the ability to be less reactive to whatever arises.
+BuddhaAtTheGasPump Rick, I discovered your podcast in early 2015. I've listened to probably half of all your interviews now. Some were so great, I've listened to a single interview 5 times! I have yet to come across an interview of someone who had an awakening that could be attributed in anyway to a vipassana retreat (SN Goenka). This was my experience. So many people have gone to these retreats - surely there are many other people with a similar experience? Have you done an interview with someone who's path was through Goenka style vipassana meditation? Just curious! I have mixed feelings about the Goenka retreats, but they represented a huge turning point in my life.
futility! the prime motivator. thank goodness i don't feel the need to buy your book, sal! (said with great respect and a dash of humor). great conversation, guys.
So good to hear a normal person speak that is comfortable in their body. TY.
Many years ago, girls went to finishing school. Where did the Lads go?
1 hour in and Sal seems like an honest,straightforward guy...not trying to build himself up or to live up to the experiences of Sages(as related by Rick-and which may be fiction,anyway) but just sticking to discussing from his own experience.
+glenemma1 But Rick insists on pushing his Meditation thing,that it was this which purified Sal,readied his nervous system etc. Might as well say that a major cause of Sal's awakening was the 25 years of drug taking which also preceded it. After all some people meditate every day for 45 years so there central nervous system must surely be ready.....and yet not awakened? Oh well,maybe after 60 years-more purification of the body/mind system needed.
+thomas seven Yes,I'm beginning to wonder if Rick actually knows anything experientially or if it is all just book ''knowledge''after all.
In this interview he says himself that holding a belief is okay as long as you ''hold it lightly''. Yet his beliefs are unshakeable.
44 years of meditation without missing a day wouldn't be an attachment would it?
I wish he'd take a couple of days off from meditating. It might be worthwhile,experientially speaking.
+thomas seven +glenemma1 Under the guise of “playing Devil’s Advocate”, Rick does have a tendency of taking the same two or three mildly interesting themes, like the ones you both mentioned, and then proceed to bludgeon his guest with them. It points to a peculiar inflexibility.
+Aves Raggiana I agree
And there is a lot of fear there too
.I think after all these years of pursuing a ''spiritual'' path and yet still working on that central nervous system a seed of doubt is troubling his sub conscious. And he will suppress this desperately. After all 44 years down a dead end street is not easy for anyone to entertain.
And as Sal in this interview said.,his awakening came after he stopped meditating. It was his natural state when seeking stopped.
But Rick is not seeking now that seeking has become a dirty word. He tells us he is actually ''exploring''.
+glenemma1 Watch enough of these BATGAP interviews and it becomes ferociously obvious where Rick's blind spots are. Still, all non-duality show hosts have them, and for all of Rick's limitations as an interviewer, his is still the most engaging interview show of its kind.
Hint: don't bother with that blonde, terminally dumbstruck bimbo, Lilou Mace.
Very straightforward, practical kind of teacher(though he might have reservations about even being referred to as that). On occasion I intuitively resonate with certain guests that appear on the show(i.e., Francis Bennett., James Braha) and he's certainly one.
Thanks for the honesty Sal. This leads well into the Joey Litt episode that may be coming?
+Theodor Onarheim You mean Joey Lott?
+Moonsod Yes :) Where is my edit function, TH-cam?
Very good interview with an excellent teacher.
At 34:00 : An example of honesty.
At 49:00 : Awesome point - alluding to "no real free will".
At 55:00 : A great example of honesty, humbleness and authenticity.
At 1:26:00 : Rick talking about many cases of reincarnation. to Rick, I haven't seen a single proven case of reincarnation. Please let us know if know of single proven case of reincarnation.
At 1:38:00 : Rick in unwilling to let go of his idea of "spiritual refinement".
At 1:50:00 : a great experiment. Take a break.
Try Old Souls by Tom Shroder....story of Dr Iam Stevenson's compelling collection of over 2,000 past life memory cases...
+HemmantJo From the book review on Amazon:
...We do get snippets of Stevenson's interviews with subjects who remember past lives, but these are disjointed and hardly rise to the level of "the scientific evidence." In fact, all Stevenson seems to encounter on these visits are fairly weak cases and dead-ends...
I think it has many positive reviews on the UK site and I found the work credible...
+HemmantJo Dr. Michael Persinger of Laurentian University who has many published papers on similar subjects says "the geomagnetic field of the
earth contains a holographic record of everything that has ever happened
within the scope of the field. This could help explain why human beings
evolved into being in multiple locations around the globe
simultaneously. This is why monkeys have been known to learn how to use a
tool on different islands simultaneously without any help. This is why
the same or similar myths arose in different cultures of the world who
had no contact with each other. This is also, I believe, where the idea
of reincarnation comes from. When people are consciously aware of past
lives, they are tapping into the holographic source. This can even
explain the origins of ghosts".
So there are definitely other theories!
What i do not get, is that i always hear people telling "living in with this sage. That sage. When i look up, going to whatever teacher. It cost loads of money to even just rent something to live in for a few weeks. Was i always just to late? Even Mooji, who does not write books or asks money for his satsangs. It costs money to rent something where he is. A lot of money!
the journey of 1,000 miles begins with ... oh never mind, you're there already
*A +2.0 on a -3.0 to +3.0 scale.* Disclaimers at the end of the comment.
Good from both sides. He is also a good example for what the Tibetans mean when they speak of "knowledge veils". Assuming for the moment that this guy knows the essential nature of the mind while being left with zero cosmological insight or clairvoyance, the bodhisattvayana as presented by the Tibetan schools would place people like him pretty much at the beginning of the pure paths if he had any intention for the future to clear his mind of the rest of the veils for the sake of all beings. And I love his honesty about it which made it deliciously impossible for Rick to sink his hook into him for reeling in confirmation for his hindu prejudices. He is also a good example for why it is false to level the accusation at me that I "don't like people who sell books". I don't mind that at all if that is not at all the motive for bringing someone in for another interview or an influence that corrupts the by Rick stated purpose of the channel. *If the **_only_** reasons the interview is conducted are those pertinent to the by Rick stated purpose of the channel and the publishing of a book has nothing to do with it **_then_** if - as a kind of side effect - he has a book to present **_also_** it is actually quite welcome.* But don't think you can fool us there. *If there was such a thing as an epidemic of newly awakened people then those with a book to sell would be a rare exception among them.*
_About the rating: anything below and including 0 means by and large a waste of time, and anything below 0 is not only worthless but damaging to the world. For comparison, on that scale, Francis Bennett would be a +2 or more and Harri Aalto would be roughly a tentative +2 to +2.5. Not coming up with original, independent cosmological insights bans any interviewee from > 2.0 ratings as a matter of principle._
*General Disclaimer:* _the rating pertains to an interview, not to the interviewee_. If the rating is high it means merely and exclusively that I consider the interview to be of high value relative to the stated purpose of the channel, and that it is therefore no waste of time to listen to the interview. It would _not_ imply that whatever the interviewee speaks is the truth (as if I was the arbiter over that) or that you should follow him/her or accept whatever that person offers. _That is particularly in need of emphasis if that would be an expensive enterprise_ !
+Soteriologe
Soteriologe, I beg to differ with your brief assessment. I deliberated
considerably before
posting, as this fellow is a complex mix of insights and
inconsistencies. There are so many points he touches on, alluding,
perhaps without knowing it, to great philosophical questions, that it
would take pages to begin. Your critique begins with “assuming for
the moment that this guy understands the essence of the mind,” and
that's key. What if we don't assume that? That's a big matzo ball
left hanging, no? I have narrowed down the possibilities of filing
this interview under: The Tao of Poe, Jimmy Crack Corn, Nolo
Contendere, George Costanza (“It's not a lie if you believe
it”) or The Wizard of Oz categories. So, Poe ripped back the
curtain and found there is no wizard after all. Well, Jimmy Crack
Corn and I don't care, my Master's gone away. He deflects all
questions about the relativity of his truths by saying he just
doesn't care. When asked by questioner John, whether he may have
stopped looking for truth and just found a comfort zone, his response
was an instantaneous “Is there a difference?” This is a crucial
point, as it is the heart of his argument, and I do not profess to be
able to answer it for him or me right now. I am sure he had a deep
insight into the nature of seeking, so I in no way impugn his
response; this is the kind of thing I alluded to when I said this
interview is overflowing with salient questions, which would take
pages to get at. Is there a difference between liberation and Truth
versus just stopping seeking? Let's leave that for now.
His argument about child development (45”), however, is risible, and is one of the reasons I
would lower the rating to 1. He makes the pre/trans fallacy which
Wilber himself made in Up from Eden, and regretted, and I will not
draw that out here. Poe does not see that the development of ego is
necessary and to some extent would happen even without society's
influence. Toddlers have to develop a sense of ego or they cannot
learn to be in the world (Piaget spent sixty books detailing this).
Worse, he seems not tonotice that this very ego he despises so much is the very selfsame
ego which he espouses as the identity which has never changed in him,
making his argument comical. (This is enough to raise doubts even
about the 1.) Ironically, he basks in the shadow of Mt. Arunachala of cherished Ramana, and then refuses to engage in the very
atma-vichara which is the whole point of being there. He rests in the
very vague sense of I, ego, which is the starting point of inquiry,
realizing that, for him, that's enough; it is not the completion of a
spiritual search, but the realization that he's not really
interested. That's fine and it may be the truth for most of us,
including myself. I wonder.
There are different ordersof “not knowing.” There's the not knowing of someone who never
looked; there's the not knowing of someone who looked and gave up;
there's the not knowing of someone who found what Ramana, and others,
found. Yet, all are not knowing. It is so hard to get at this; what
is the nature of Poe's not knowing? Again, the interview is like an
overstuffed chair; it resists facile analysis. He avoided this question when asked
about his realization versus that of Ramana; I think he said nobody's more realized than himself (Poe), and that he has reached the terminus of all seeking, at least as far as he's concerned.
How are we free if there
is no free will? It appears our only freedom would be in seeing we
have no freedom, since whatever we might will would itself be
determined. Is that the idea? We are a complex of infinite and
finite, this is not new, but the question is how the two relate. Poe
claims more than he knows. He thinks he sees determinism, and there
are good arguments for that, not the least of which is that one is
never “there” where the decision takes place; one thinks, but one
is somehow never where the deciding takes place. One never actually
witnesses the process. However, to be honest, it is a mystery, not
something we know for sure, because there are other questions and
factors; we might be willing it, but not self-consciously, for
example. If we are free, at the absolute level, then how can we not
be free, since we are the source?
Parenthetically, you mightbe surprised to know how much Hitler appreciated Eastern mysticism;
the idea that it's all a play and there is no ego makes it much
easier to engage in mass murder than it might otherwise be. His
appropriation of the swastika is well-known but the breadth of his
dalliance is dimly lit.
Instead of his exercises(I don't have the book), which are probably biased to demonstrate
what he wants to show, I fall back on my characteristic expedient of
torture. I recall an interviewee who was honest enough to say it
would take about three months of torment before he would be able to
summon the will to distance himself from his bodily identity enough
to endure it. There is no shortage of fools who think that truths
uttered by mouth are the same as existential knowing; Norio does this
clearly too. Who among us can take hard blows to the body, or being
confined in a small space, hog-tied, etc. and survive it with
platitudes like “It's all good,” or the Eastern, non-dual
equivalent? Who among us would not break down, even before the first
blow, and say “OK, kind Sir, I am not the body, but I am very
closely related and if you slam me in the head with that bat it would
hurt too much for my shallow book-understanding of how I am really
not the body but the transcendental Self, or even Nothingness,
please, please, please?” Is there such an exercise in his book,
that might demonstrate the limits of his philosophical position or is
everyone seated comfortably in a nice, ever so tidy, space avidly
entertaining awareness?
In sum, I think Poe is the
right guy with the right message for the right person at the right
time; there is great value in his questions and in his genuine
insights, which I respect and admire. It's just that it's half-baked
at the moment. He will attract people whom he can help, I think, so
overall, despite my caveats, a few of which I put down here, he is a
sincere man, with insights into profound matters. He has definitely
stopped the mind and has seen the timeless, so that much stands. His
conclusions are the issue. He should adhere closely to observation
and to what he actually, honestly knows. If he lets people, no,
forces people to make their own conclusions, not his, then his
consultations are of value. I think his present position is a balance
from the years of intense struggle, but it will not be his final
position.
+jazzsnare Hi Jazz, I think you are assuming a conflict between our takes which may not be there for the following reasons:
1. ... and foremost because of my disclaimers. Your points were addressed by the interviewer and not trivialized. The interview and the interviewee makes it quite obvious that the realization of this guy doesn't get anywhere near that of a Ramana Maharshi even though he can't tell the difference (he doesn't say there is none). In the same vein I assume that he has probably seen what I think Anadi (or whoever it was) calls "the I AM within the body", that is the essence of the mind as it is funneling into the limitations of human consciousness and therefore fenced in by its cognitive limitations, and I had indicated as much in my rating commentary by speaking of the "knowledge veils". Although the recognized essence is the same, that doesn't make it the same realization.
2. You say _'Your critique begins with “assuming for the moment that this guy understands the essence of the mind,” and that's key. What if we don't assume that?'_ which is taken care of by the other side of the coin of the disclaimers I mentioned under 1. I am not responsible for a good fake. The interview was worth listening to. I also don't lean towards that interpretation because he had a better way of making a living through music. If a drug abuser threatening to go off the deep end reaches contentment that last a lifetime, listening to him can't do so much damage.
3. I don't recall where he committed the pre/trans-fallacy, please quote the time.
4. "Ego" is a word with a range of meanings in that context.
5. Of course, due to the limited depth of the realization he would very likely fail the torture test, just like this Radha Ma apparently did, according to what I get from the grapevine.
+Soteriologe Hello, Sotto voce. Having re-read your disclaimers I would clarify that I agree with the 2 as far as you define it; it's quite an interview, warts and all. I was getting more to the truth of the interview. Actually, I already gave the time for the pre/trans fallacy in my post, the one time I gave. Poe thinks that infants have an innate purity, which then gets lost and hopefully found again, which had best not been lost. As such, he misses the necessity of developing an ego, which is then transcended, which is not the same as never having left home. You gotta run the bases. Time is evil in his view, but is necessary for transcendence. The innocence of the infant, pre-ego, is not the same as the purity of transcendence, if these words suffice. One is not enlightened at birth, only to fall into evil. Simone Weil put it well when she said that we must become a fully developed ego with the task of deconstructing it and giving it all back, adding that, if we were to feel the agony of a lifetime all in one moment, no one would be able to survive it. (She's not that popular, you know.)
+jazzsnare Oh yes, you did mention the time, and you do not need to go to the length of explaining the pre/trans. But I don't see him really contradicting that, he just mentions that a new born is not identified as a separate yet. He doesn't claim that not having identified as separate yet is the same as building your own person and seeing through that as non-separate.
+Soteriologe He refers to the separation from mother as "original sin" at 45" and, elsewhere, I think earlier, he described the individuation process as a "corruption" from "society." I don't see how else to interpret this; it seems to clearly say that the process of building an ego, a central sense of agency, is bad, and seems to me to yearn for the original purity, prior to 1.5 yrs. of age, where one wasn't aware of anything. One who sees individuation and subsequent transcendence would not, I aver, speak in these terms.
He has had substantial insights, but the way he tries to cobble things together detracts from his own purity. The reason I support him is that we can't wait for perfection, such as Ramana; there must be a place for those with good insights to help others. Even Ramana's teaching has its risks and pitfalls, as well, despite his greatness.
tommy emmanuel is amazing! haha.
still trying not to feel "lack" when i see him perform. hard not to :)
This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George wants to become a sitcom writer for "a show about nothing".
All the greats advertise in those glossy mags. That's how you find a spiritual teacher.
just beyond the self lie the bliss body which is referred to as God.Salvadore keep seeking
If you cannot choose, where is the freedom?
+Mary Gwen Dungan Yes. Thank you Mary. We have no choice and no freedom as only human beings. But we are not this. We are endless consciousness, that goes higher and higher (Deeper and deeper) with no end. As such, on some level of this, we made a choice to be human beings and live in a physical world. But we can also choose to live in any other way that we want. There is nothing that can block us from choosing freely, as consciousness, to live differently. All of our experience of existence is only in our consciousness. You have to know this experientially, not only intellectually, and then you know that you are free. We are free even before we know. But we don't believe it, and what we believe determines how we live. And it is impossible to truly believe without experiencing it.
+Mary Gwen Dungan Yes, it is so. Thank you.
+Giora Carmi I think people are shocked to realize they actually have no power or control like they think they do. Seems that until we surrender we are not able to embrace true presence and true absence. If we resist we cycle through our suffering.
Jesus, Buddha, all the great saints and sages, they all charged at least $150 an hour. You know, raise some dead, heal some sick, feed some poor, at least $150 an hour. No self respecting, even half way realized greenhorn would charge less than $150 an hour.
I think it better be at least $1500 (one thousand five hundred) an hour.
People who are looking for enlightenment are quite stupid in my not so humble and not so kind or enlightened opinion.
There has to be a good monetary compensation for dealing with such people.
$1500 per hour seems right for most people. Once you run out of all your money, the reality becomes clear for many people. The stupidly gets cured really fast once you have to do real hard work to feed yourself. Free stasang or cheap, slow leak like $15 per hour can keep one addicted to stupidity for a really long time.
+Mary Gwen Dungan Sri Sathya Sai baba was among the richest and most successful gurus ever. I wonder what the secret of his success was.
+Mary Gwen Dungan not charging money alone doesn't explain it. There are many gurus in India who charge no money but not everyone becomes famous and rich like Sri Sathya Sai baba.
Many people believed Sri Sathya Sai Baba could do miracles. The miracles could be false or true, fake or real, fraudulent or genuine but if enough people believe them to be real, it is likely to bring great business.
Jesus too is credited with many miracles. Even 2000 years after his death, Christians talk of his miracles.
If people truly believe you could do miracles, success is very likely.
+Mary Gwen Dungan good luck to you :-)
+Mary Gwen Dungan Oh $100 is nothing. I’ve gone to retreats and spent hundreds of dollars for one weekend, and it made me feel good for few days, but it didn’t get me anywhere besides that.
I bought his book, but I felt like I needed a session to clarify a few things. And OMG, am I grateful that his sessions are ONLY $100. I’m so grateful! He helped me to recognize something that is so helpful and valuable, that released so much tension for me that I want to cry happy tears.
AND all in the comfort of my home, didn’t have to fly to India, stay there for a month, lose a month of work, it could cost thousands of dollars just in travel costs.
So I’m surprised you are making such a big deal about the cost of the sessions. He is taking his time out of his life to give such service and undivided attention. Why wouldn’t you want to give back for this gift? AND…why would someone do it for free in the first place? Even if you love helping people and do it happily, you need money to live. It’s just common sense though.. No?
By the way check your math, it’s way off..
Actually, he's not a dyed-in-the-wool Neo Advaitan, else he wouldn't be prescribing Self Inquiry as he does.
Is Russell Brand coming on?
"Liberation is the end of the Spiritual Path"?.... 'Liberation' (if such a thing there be) by definition has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'spiritual path' (whatever that might be). Unless you can get that between your ears, you are pretty much bound to waste your life talking shit to yourself. And others.... As for the 'Self' - it is the human body, and, whatever else you have realized about its nature, it exists and, so long as you're alive and kicking, will persist in experience, because it exists. Particularly Now. So the question of 'being without the self' does not at all arise.....'Aware is free' only if awareness is not produced by the brain/nervous system - a fundamental issue on which the gentleman (perhaps predictably) did not touch....Meanwhile the implicit assumption that Jesus' influence on the world was 'benign' rather than 'malignant', being a hypothesis advanced without any supporting evidence, we will have to pass over...Perhaps we can all agree that Dick Cheney is a worthless cunt....But I'm not even Absolutely sure about that......
+Salvadore Poe No: my statement re: Jesus was a playful dig at Rick; but I thought you were concurring that 'Enlightened' people somehow have a 'benign' influence on the World (or, indeed, on other people). That is a monstrously controversial 'assumption', as I hope you would agree.....I will reply to your other comment later (gotta go out now) (if you're interested in reading it)....Many thanks for your replies anyway.
+Salvadore Poe Sal: I may well get and read your book, time (and money!) allowing.....However: It is, of course, me being pedantic, but liberation being the end of the spiritual search implies, if it doesn't actually state, that you have to be on something called a 'spiritual search' for it to end.....But Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie arguably the two most famous 'Enlightened' persons on the planet, probably hadn't even heard of such a thing before whatever happened to them happened. (The fact that they were soft-headed enough to make a bee-line for it AFTERWARDS is their problem (and that of their disciples).......There was a fellow named John Wayne Lewis who supposedly did a study (although how you would go about such a thing beats me!) which concluded that 75% of 'Enlightened people' had had no connection with 'spiritual stuff' beforehand. 75 is an enormous percentage and considering the number of people who are 'into spiritual stuff', at least on the sly, suggests that the aforementioned stuff is, if anything, a powerful OBSTRUCTION to 'Enlightenment'...............With respect to 'the self': - Contrary to the assertions of our 'benefactors': there can be no such thing as a 'meditative state' as distinct from Deep Sleep' (even if then!). Deep Sleep may be all very well (probably is); but it has no bearing, per sae, on a question which is being asked by and has to be answered by, the conscious mind....What calls forth the body from deep sleep is a demand by said body: to respond to a potential danger, to feed itself, to take a piss, or whatever. The danger, for example, has to be assessed, according to the mind/body's knowledge (which is the past) and acted upon with a view to obtaining security (from the danger) in the future. Whatever else has been realized by the intellect (about how the self 'fits into the grand scheme of things', or whatever): this movement from the past to the future constitutes the self, corresponds to the body and is a necessary component of experience (however subtle) because it's a necessary CONDITION of being awake (as I hope you still are!). To assert otherwise is to posit a 'transcendent' human being. There is no such animal; but the belief that there is is one of the things that lies at the root of our social structure which has brought us to the point of destruction. Not exactly benign, wouldn't you agree?......I've been rabbiting on - hope this makes sense. :)
+Salvadore Poe Ah: the usual cop-out: blame it on the followers. I cannot discover that St. Paul was any less 'Enlightened' than Jesus. But the misdeeds of Christianity are many times blamed on him. This is just scapegoating. Put the blame where it belongs, Sal. And keep it there.
+thomas seven What does "freedom from the known" mean?...Buddha (reputedly) said: "Life is suffering". He also (reputedly) said that Liberation is: "The end of suffering". A wise-guy, huh?....As clear as mud.
+thomas seven Sorry. Your comment came up as a 'reply' to me...Damned machines!..... But how do you know it was their desire for relief from suffering which precipitated the events you reference? We're all suffering, mate. Yer Man was right about that!
this salvadore guy doesn't even know what he's talking. kidding us and himself