I grew up in a rural area in central Canada and handling and directing water, especially spring runoff, was very much a part of our lives. That deep ravine will have some years where the water just flows more or less gently down to the river. But then on some years, you get fast thaws, or maybe a torrential downpour/flash flood every half dozen years that just flushes out ravines like that. As you said, the decomposing bodies would not have been deeply buried. If there was a torrential downpour within the next year or so, it could well have flushed the remains downstream into the river. I've seen an unusual summer downpour carve two or three feet of dirt out of the bottom of gullies. The banks will slowly slump in over the years, and that can once again fill in the flash-flood type gullies. The bottom line is that, looking at that gully, anything buried at the bottom of it will get flushed out in one of those rare, flash-flood/torrential downpours that occur from time to time.
Great points you two,seriously e-mail the Park System/Historian that is certainly plausible Video said over time the high walls of deep ravine collapsed some perhaps covering the shallow graves.That was before the 80s excavations and with the thick growth in there could they use ground penetrating radar or simply to difficult to get at.People can be assuming it was done when it wasn't or even wolves/coyote's carrying off body parts
Great theory, parallels my own considering steepness & seasonal run-off. However, to take it one step further, it's reasonable to assume the burial detail (as a rule, a people by & large much more in tune with the environment than most are today) naturally considered/anticipated this & transferred these bodies up to the mass burial site at the monument. (by hand to horse travois up the creek bed, to wagon or all the way by travois) Why? If it was impossible to bury them where they lay, command would then not necessarily want them buried at the more reasonable slopes at the head of the ravine & risk confusing the layout. Consider context likely mattered to them as much as it does to us today. They took great care everywhere (as much as possible) to mark bodies in situ. Not taking the ravine casualties all the way to the monument would have confused the investigation/legacy/layout of a profound battlefield they surely knew had "Memorial in Perpetuity" written all over it. Many present were Civil War veterans keenly aware of the historic magnitude of such occasions.
Perhaps I've read many times because of the heat, and what two days,the diggers were just too overwhelmed with the horrific stench and hordes of flies.These guys were just slapped together not trained undertakers with hazmet gear & breathing apparatus. Dirty Job - better call Mike Rowe
I have an ancestor who was an E company trooper. After much study of and fascination with the battle, it is my belief that his remains are in Deep Ravine. My theory is the survivors on burial detail found it too difficult at the time to retrieve the bodies from Deep Ravine. I think it was easier for them to dig, knock down or shove the steep sides down into the ravine to cover the bodies there. That is why it no longer resembles the eye witnesses accounts of a " deep ravine ". The troopers are there. They are just deeper than most people realize.
Intersting thought, maybe you are right but maybe not. It occured to me that when a deluge occurs out west, then everything in a ravine gets washed away and covered up and sometimes it lies quite far from its original location. There may have been enough time since the battle to have had a deluge or two, so there may be no traces, i. e. bones, leather boot rests, buttons, shell casings, rusty spoons, etc., to be found and one job of the squaws was to scavange the battlefield taking everything they could, so there may not be as many traces as one may think. This is out west, so there were also coyotes or wolves around in the summer which smelled the blood and the smell from bacteria starting to decay flesh from the summer heat right after the battle and they can crush bones with sharp teeth for its marrow. All sorts of varmints gnaw on bones for its minerals, just take a look at the teeth marks on an antler which has been on the ground for a couple of years. Just a couple of things to ponder.
The people assigned to the burial detail probably didn't realize the significance of this battle would have for future generations. And that the location of the fallen soldiers would be individually marked. They probably did their duty as quickly as possible, so I believe the bodies are still there.
I have been to LBH Battlefield twice. This is a mystery to me. I talked to a park ranger about this. He said that "nothing" was found in the deep ravine excavation. This excavation was quite extensive. I had long thought the bodies (bones?) were there but were removed for burial at the mass brave under the monument. But I have to believe that if there were 20+ soldiers killed in the deep ravine then there would have been at least some evidence such as buttons, bullets, casing etc. The lack of these artifacts in the ravine is at the core of this mystery. BTW, I have heard many theories on how much fighting was done on certain places on the battlefield based on forensic evidence. While true to a point, we must remember that this battlefield was picked over by souvenir hunters for decades. I personally know of an account of acquaintance of my father (who is now 86), who worked in that area prior to WWII. He had two five gallon buckets of things he scavenged. The removal of artifacts prior to modern battlefield forensics has to be taken into account.
John McMorris , perhaps your father's acquaintence had a father/friend/relative who collected the scavenged articles .Because that doesn't sound right as WWII started basically in 1940 that's 82 ys ago so that fellow was only like 4 yrs old then and couldn't possibly have worked in that area prior to the War.Also I believe the poster Kirk Dunston above has a very plausible explanation and if I had to bet it all I would guess his theory is accurate
@@bigwoody4704 BW. You are correct. The person who collected the artifacts was at least 20-25 years older than my father. He was not the same generation as my father. The gentleman I referenced lived in a tiny town in northeast Missouri and I have talked others who knew him that had seen his collection. I do not know what became of the relics.
This was very interesting! I have visited the Battle of the Little Bighorn twice and it is eerie. You can almost feel the tenseness in the air on the battlefield. I believe there is still much unknown about this famous battle.
Thank You. As a former military officer I greatly appreciate whatyou are doing in these videos. GOD Bless All who serve, served, and their families. Amazing work and history. Peace & Health
@@thomashealey291 no, not even close. Soldiers who served the USA. IF, IF You live ANY way other than as the Natives, you are a beneficiary of the advancement. Also WE ALL KNOW, even the Natives say, the tribes were NOT, ever, peaceful. They warred against each other and enslaved and killed. They took property and lives on a regular basis. NOT innocent. So, either you are confused or a hypocrit. Peace & Health
@@MyelinProductions All groups of people kill and take advantage of other groups of people. Just how it was/ is. Don't be hatin'. Just strive to be better going fwd. Peace.
@@chriswalter7419 "hatin'" - WOW! Not at all. The "natives" were NEVER peaceful, their OWN History reveals this. They conquered and were in time & turn conquered. The native peoples sought to erase each other centuries before the White/European EVER showed up - same as Africans did/do to Africans, Europeans did/do to Europeans, Asians did/do to Asians, etc etc etc - But Thankfully we have modern advanced technology and science because WE, USA, expanded. No hate at all. Peace & health to Us All - Be Safe out there. Thank You.
I was there a couple years ago with the wife and kids, the entire area is very well marked out. Who died were, etc. We were on top of the hill over looking the scene, when my son pops off with ; hey were are the horses buried? Then we turned around. On the back side of the hill, a place were each horse was found was marked. This is a great piece of history for all Americans to see and study.
The Battlefield is indeed an amazing place to visit. It is the only one I have ever visited, where a sense of how big the battle was..the markers where people passed makes that much clear. On my visit, I didn’t have much time to walk around, but I still got a good sense where everything happened.
where markers are found in pairs, it likely means that's where horse and trooper fell and were buried. The markers were placed sometime later at locations where the grass was greener (better fertilized).
@@greenflagracing7067 When you go there. The horses were just on the other side were the big wall with the names of all the Indians on it. The markers for the horses is there.
During my visit there last year, and my subsequent reading on the battle, I seem to recall either some after action report, or testimony during one of the later inquiries, where someone commented about the stench coming from Deep Ravine during the investigation 3 days after the battle, which would indicate a large number of dead bodies contained within. I also remembered at the time wondering why there were no markers inside the ravine.
Having visited the battlefield and reading as much as I can about it, I'm surprised that anyone (or anything) was properly reported. The grass fire in the 1990s(?) I think gave archeologists their best look and best evidence of what happened. As for the Deep Ravine, "The Last Stand" specifically talks about soldiers in an area fitting that description. So I tend to believe that the soldiers died there, but were buried so deep, they are not visible.
the grass fire was in 1983 (just to clarify) and it was a god send for archaeoligists. Some of the things they discovered were fantastic, like the oral histories of the Indians were correct and they were better armed than the soldiers. But in my mind was when they were able use forensics to identify the bullet casings from one soldier as he fought his way up to finally die on Last Stand Hill!
@@korbell1089 The Firearms Examiner from Nebraska State Police Lab was the ballistics go-to. The soil being so hard maintained the bullet holes so well they were able to laser off angles. Then depending on the cartridge/rifle calculate where the bullet came from and distance. Lot of lead was fired that day. I met the examiner in the early 2000's and he showed me some of the photos from fired cases off the battlefield. I really think another major grass fire would be beneficial while the original major investigators are still with us.
I would wager the bodies are there, and the topography has changed slightly since the battle (sides of ravine collapsing, etc), such that the bodies are now very deep underground.
Agreed, too many reports from both sides that clearly state the direct eyewitness accounts from that area. Because nothing was found is no reason to discredit first hand information.
The soil & substrate are loose here, with a lot of loose rock and/or shale, contributing to slippage. There is no doubt the bodies could have been covered over several times since the battle. If burial detail had sloughed in the sides to cover the bodies (as suspected) there could be several feet of cover over the bodies.
I don't doubt the eyewitnesses that there were soldiers killed in the ravine but we're making a logical leap when we assume because that's where they fell that's where they were buried. It takes a few minutes to drag a body out of the ravine, even if it's 3 days decomposed, and I would definitely do so if time allowed otherwise every spring with snow melt there's a chance of the shallow grave being uncovered by water.
I do remember a skeleton remains were found in the side of a ravine within the past 20-30 years. It washed out and was found by someone not looking for artifacts. This person notified the proper people and the site was excavated. A skull was found and a clay reconstruction was done by a forensic team. The trooper was able to be identified from his military photo in the 7th archives. I might be wishful thinking, but I think he was identified as being from E troop.
You might be thinking of Sgt Miles O'Hara, who was killed in the valley fight. In my Stories From the Little Bighorn playlist, there is a documentary called Custer's Last Trooper that covers this story.
My recollection also is that this was a trooper associated with the valley fight, he died at the river, and when the rivers course here changed ~130 yrs later part of his skeleton was exposed. A forensic reconstruction of his skull was able to identify him.
Yes, one of them at least, was Sergeant Miles O'Hara. O'Hara was the first soldier to come to grief in the battle. For all of that, O'Hara wasn't in E. Troop; he was part of Reno's battalion.
The trooper was Vincent Charlie, I believe he was Company K's farrier. He was shot through both hips during the retreat from Weir Point and left behind. When they found his body 3 days later, a stick had been shoved down his throat. On the Custer part of the battlefield they found some facial bones that had to have come from Mitch Bouyer Many believe Bouyer led the last breakout attempt from Last Stand Hill and it consisted of a handful of troopers as well as Boston Custer and Autie Reed.
All I can say as an ex soldier myself, is leave them be. They earned their rest and whatever we do now is not for them but to satisfy our own curiosity. They deserve to be left alone. Put up a marker by all means but leave them in the peace they have earned and deserve.
I come from a line of service people and I'd just like to think someone sent blessings over them . Life is tough it's a long time not to have blessed words over . Maybe coming from a line of sailors it's superstition 💙 you have served I don't know your beliefs but I would imagine you have strong ones . From one man to another god bless you 👊
@@matthewevans3292 As a Christian, I've learned to pray for the living, that they make it to heaven, once the spirit has left, it's a done deal. I pray frequently for our troops, sailors, etc. in all branches. The saber rattling is loud now and I don't want to wait for an attack to start praying.
I think an intense metal detection should take place in that ravine to discover any metal pieces such as buttons, belts, guns, to find bodies still hidden within that terrain.
This topography is weathered by wind and rain. We in the PNW call these “finger ridges” as they radiate like fingers on your hand with the Little Bighorn river flowing far below. Maj. Reno held out on top of a knuckle, so to speak!
May the rest in peace now, wherever they lie, both the troopers and the braves. Sadly, boys, the world has learned no better sense since you last walked upon it.
As a Native American who currently lives on a reservation, I hope his soul and the souls of his men find no peace. They will walk our plains as ghosts, forever searching for something they'll never find.
I’ve visited this battlefield twice, but I’m puzzled and I honestly have no idea. The eyewitness accounts seem clear, but lack of evidence makes this a mystery unlikely to be solved at this late date. However, I greatly appreciate your inquiries into the matter as all the men who fought there, on both sides, were of great courage and deserving of great respect. Every time I stand on any battleground and reflect, I’m struck by one overwhelming thought; May God save us from ourselves.
Well spoken, sir. I live near Gettysburg, and have visited the battlefield often. It is still overwhelming, and depressing to realize the extent of the death and destruction there. As well documented as that place is( many photos taken in the aftermath as well) there are still discrepancies in exact timing and movement of the forces there.
@Rob Eastwood I would certainly think that the most likely scenario. Through the years, they probably washed down into the river and far downstream. This seems the most plausible explanation to me at any rate.
The reason God won't save us from ourselves is that there is no god and never was.. Neither was there a pregnant married virgin riding a donkey at christmas.. I am from the 1st world..
I grew up near the Battlefield and visited it many times and read books and articles on the subject. I used to think that the mysteries related to Little Bighorn were unique and that it's too bad we can't know "the real story" of what happened, but as I've grown older and read and studied history, I've come to know that pretty much every event and aspect of history is subject to the ambiguities of human memory and perspective. Still, it's so intriguing to study and analyze and hopefully/maybe learn from.
I only made it there once about ten years ago. There is nothing like walking those hills, seeing how steep they are and the lay of the land. You can start seeing puzzle pieces fall into place. The most sobering one for me was the hill that Reno's troops and horse had to climb. Those were not good horses to start with, then they were run down with so many miles on the trail, then expect the horse to jump into the river, swim for it, climb out the east side and THEN climb that incredibly steep and tall hill and THEN try to make a fighting position. They were operating on sheer adrenaline and divine intervention to go through that gauntlet. It would be tough for a muscular, in-shape Quarter Horse to do that today. The horse would be puffing pretty hard when reached the top.
I've been to CBNM & walked Deep Ravine 3 times over past 50 yrs, have vast library of Custer/LBH books, pamphlets, much 1st hand sources & long oop (e.g. Hein, "Memories of Long Ago"). IMCO, from reading the source mat'l, I think a hasty "burial" was made by shoveling soil from top of Deep Ravine embankment onto bodies; no one had time, inclination or tools for proper burials. A few years later, the official burial party missed a number of significant areas on battlefield. This included Deep Ravine, so bodies there weren't disenterred for burial elsewhere. So, when permanent headstones were erected, Deep Ravine largely overlooked, with no intention of placing markers on wall or top of ravine to mark bodies within. Could bodies from Deep Ravine have been relocated--say, to Last Stand Hill group enterrment moument--in one of the 19th century battlefield cleanups? Theoretically, yes. But sources are silent on this.
I wonder too. But, by the time they were able to move the bodies, would they? The decomposition of the bodies would be far along and very unpleasant to work with - particularly since they would have been working bare handed. Decomposing bodies are the worst smell I've ever experienced. It gets in your nose and stays there for days. I'm not saying they didn't do this, but unless someone forced me at gunpoint I would never do it without modern protective gear.
@@blueindigo1000 The post battle, 1st person accts confirm this. The only "specialized" piece of equipment was a bandana around nose & mouth. Flies/maggots, stench everywhere. Serious skin slippage. Much wretching. Not a lot of entrenching shovels--boards torn from ammo, hardtack packing crates used in absence of shovels. That, and the need to quickly press on with the campaign were the reasons dirt & brush were loosely, thinly thrown over most bodies. A BIG effort to protect & bury Custer (and somewhat lesser extent, Tom) was ordered by Terry, out of respect for the widely regarded wife, Libbey, Custer's Civil War hero status, and anticipated exhumation & reinterrment to west point.
@@josephstabile9154 There were few shovels or pickaxes available to bury the dead. They used plates and broken canteens to scoop out graves. The men, most of them, died on the 25th and were buried on the 28th. Records from the time say that the stench was terrible. The bodies had not been left alone. The Indians chopped them up and dismembered them, so it was a gruesome mess. For years after people would visit the site and pick up bones. I read that most bars around those parts had a skull on display found at the site of the Battle of the Little Bighorn.
Ive been there, walked it and studied it…I tried to be there the last week of June but weather in the area put me there July 1-2…close enough to get the feel of the place….Ive only felt what I felt while walking there in 2 other places, Shiloh and Gettysburg….Eerie if you avoid the tour groups and walk where you want…
If you are receptive, or ‘tuned in’ those places speak to you…The scene in Apocalypse Now, at the Do Long Bridge, when the guys were trying to swim to the boats to leave, was based directly on Pittsburg Landing on the evening of the first day at Shiloh…if you stand there at twilight and overlay that scene you can actually see it….
Old photos taken months and even a year or so after this event show all sorts of bones and skeletons on the ground. No doubt some of these were animal remains, but who knows. Another point: animals could have dragged off the dead, or consumed parts of them, in the immediate days after the battle.
I've always felt the most surprising thing about the battle field is how much area it encompasses. I wouldn't be at all surprised they continue to find remains and artifacts for a very long time. That area probably looks the same today as when the battle occured.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video-thank you for producing it! Here are my observations based on the information that you presented: A. It seems like a very solid assumption the the deep ravine topographical feature is what is historically referred to as the “deep ravine.” B. Post-battle reports (from both belligerents) seem to confirm the number and location of the 28 fallen troopers. The presence of bullets and casings in the ravine are likely further confirmation. C. Your assumption on the remains (due to 3 days of summertime decomposition) were not likely relocated may or may not be solid. Perhaps the only “evidence” that this assumption is faulty is the “too many markers” on the south skirmish line and no markers/remains discovered in the ravine. I live in the desert of southern Arizona, so my impressions on rainfall impact on topography and specifically its “swallowing” items on the surface is likely skewed. In the Arizona desert what’s on the surface tends to stay on the surface for a very long time (unlike other regions where surface items “sink” into muddy soil). With my desert-bias in mind, I think that if the remains were buried in the ravine, that remains would’ve been found in the ravine.
I've been able to visit " The Deep Ravine" site 4 times and this mystery about the bodies is always fascinating. I'll take an educated guess. Too many eyewitnesses both Indian and soldiers have said they found about half the bodies in Deep Ravine. Why would the bodies be moved? Maybe because nobody camps, builds or buries bodies in a wash (ravine), because eventually it will be flooded. Interested in your take on that TSOW. Thanks for the vid. Saw your Fetterman Video. Consider doing The Wagon Box Fight a few miles and months later. Thanks
This mystery has always fascinated me. There are too many reliable witnesses to discount the location. My opinion (everybody's got one) is that if the bodies were lightly covered by dirt it would only take a couple of good rains to either wash the bones further down and or bury them deeper over time. Bones exposed to the elements especially sunlight don't last very long and break into smaller slivers. I think they are down there but not in too many identifiable pieces after a hundred and fifty years.
What about coyotes, wild dogs and maybe wolves. After 3 days of decomposing bodies could be easily torn apart. Also as Burke Blue wrote a couple of heavy rains and the remains of the bodies could have been washed further down the creek, and in wet conditions for 150 years they would have al but disappeared.
On a follow up and personal note about the battle especially regarding Co. E, a possible relative of mine, Private Stella, was one of Co. E's casualties.
@@RLee-zs1ds …ALL the above. Wind, rain…predation and erosion. I for one don’t believe that IF they were buried IN the ravine..they were NOT buried deep.
I agree with you because history has always taught us that eyewitnesses, although vary in slight detail, are correct in the overall story of an incident. GREAT VIDEO! I love history and know some of what happened that the battle but this is new and thank you for your continuing work
I wouldn't go so far as to say that multiple eye witnesses can or will give similar accounts which vary in slight detail. Case in point....when I was in college I was taking a few Journalism courses and one dealt with reporting, witnesses, how to question them and then write as factual an article as you might be able to construct from so many sources. One morning I was in class and the instructor was lecturing and during the first 5-10 minutes of his lecture a furious student jerked open the door, screamed a few choice words at the prof and the fired a revolver at him several times. The professor grabbed his chest and hit the floor and his shooter ran out and slammed the door. Women screamed and some began to wail, the males were shocked and only a couple of people began to move toward the downed instructor but the were terrified too and didn't know what to do. After about a minute the instructor stood up and looked at the class and told us to write exactly what we saw.....what was he discussing, what did the perp look like and what was he wearing, what did he say or did not say, what kind of gun did he use, how many shots did he fire, did he point his gun at the class, which way did he run when he left, etc. Absolutely less than 10% of that 40-50 student class were 90% correct and in agreement with what had occurred and I believe that those budding writers received the best lesson in paying attention to everything around them and remembering what they heard and saw and to confirm it, the prof and his shooter handed out an exact copy of everything that they had planned for us that morning....verbatim. The rule is pay careful attention, watch and listen......
I worked at Little Bighorn for over 30 years and used a backhoe to uncover the water history in the bottom Deep Ravine. For several hundred years the walls were vertical in the upper end, most of the dead were buried in loose shale at the base of these bluffs. After the battle this loose soil was a advantage with the few digging tools available for burial. In subsequent years the rain caused these to fall in burying the bodies to a substantial depth, they are no longer at the slope toe. Soldiers from fort Custer established in 1878 filled the upper end with river rock to try to stop erosion, and were found over 6 feet deep.
My guess is that, despite the fact that it had been three days, the initial burial party pulled the bodies out of the ravine and buried them further up the slope.
or over the last 100 year the remains have 1 washed way or decomposed . fact human remains decompose faster in the open air or water or wet soil than if there in dry soil
@@danielblackburn1241 That's an interesting thought. I've had another one though. Is it possible that, at some later time, possibly over a period of time, the bodies were simply washed out of the ravine and down into the river? EDIT: And I see that daniellastuart has anticipated me in that thought.
Metal detecting at the bottom of the ravine would do 2 things - Prove there was activity at the bottom of the ravine and give you an idea of soil depth at the time of the battle.
I was one of the volunteers that went through the battlefield, searching for anything left open by the fire from years prior. Major excavation and devices were employed in 'deep ravine,' the results, nothing was found there. Can't speak to speculation, but quite interested as well.
I think their in the ravine, but the years have caused the bodies to be buried deep and you have to consider what happens to bodies. There is a book entitled the Mystery of E troop which talks about this and what may have happened to the bodies. Seeing picture of the 1980's search I think they were looking in the wrong area the pictures show a pretty wide and shallow area where they were looking. I think this is also way the extra markers are on the battlefield instead on in the ravine.
What’s interesting about the book you mentioned is that Gregory Michno, the author, concludes the exact opposite- that there were never any bodies in Deep Ravine. It’s a fantastic book.
I'm related to 2Lt Sturgis and his father was General Sam Sturgis, whom Sturgis South Dakota was named for; allegedly Major Reno was in love with Lt. Sturgis' sister but it was unrequited. Just a historical interjection, R.I.P. to all the victims of this battle.
Fort Meade is right outside Sturgis. Named after Gen Meade of Civil War fame. He was overshadowed by Custer's ego out west so I don't know much of his western work.
150 years of weather and erosion can cover remains. I suppose nobody really knows but I am inclined to believe that they were killed in and around the ravine. I have been to the site only once but I can imagine myself running down and along the ravine, trying to escape. There is no logic in a hot firefight.
In Canada, ground penetrating radar was used to locate the unmarked graves or may presumed victims of our residential school system. The same technology may be helpful at Deep Ravine.
Excellent video well done. I think there are many things about Custers section of the Little Bighorn Battlefield that will be a mystery. The fate of E Company is just one of them. I read elsewhere that the remains of Custer buried at West Point, may not even be Custer’s.
If you read the account of how George Custer's remains were recovered, it is very unlikely that the remains at West Point were George's. George Custer is still at The Little Big Horn with his men, as it should be.
I've read that too. It was detailed at the time of burial that Custer and his brother were buried together, wrapped in a blanket. When the detail went back to dig up their bodies to bring back east no remains recovered had been found to be buried in that way.
I've walked the paths on the field of battle and also read a number of books on the subject. I think it is good to keep an open mind and consider all the possibilities since we'll never really "know." Anyway, I am enjoying your content and look forward to seeing what other stories from out west you take on.
I do not know where these men are buried. With all the controversies, more research is definitely needed. There is still hostility between the Souix and whites. Perhaps, further careful digging and study will end the cotroversies and the anger and hostility in part.
@@glenmartin2437 The actual battle site is Federal Parks. I know the Crow have a small rez across the road to the north and west. The Sioux/Lakota are mostly in South Dakota with Pine Ridge being the worst for many things.
Either hard rains removed/scattered the remains downstream, or the walls caved in and have buried the bodies. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Fair Winds Troopers you served and fought the best you knew how.
The bodies are in that ravine. I served 27 years in the infantry. I know Soldiers, how we think, from officer to enlisted. The former company commander was tasked with burying those men who he served with. Some of these were once his brothers. I'm certain that dirt wasn't just thrown on top of them. They were dragged, slid, and gently rolled to the bottom of the ravine, nobody is dragging a swollen, rotten corpse up hill. In the bottom of that ravine, they were buried. Since the sides have collapsed in the many years since, the depth of those graves is a fair way down. Rest in peace Soldiers.
It's a shame there's not more about the burial detail in ore detail! I saw an interesting documentary on cadaver dogs. A friend of an archeologist had brought his trained dog to a dig site and the dog was pointing different places, it was going everywhere! At first they thought the dog was confused but they tested a spot, and found a skeleton! The dog had found a battlefield from hundreds of years ago! Just yards from the dig site. Wonder if they could try that at Little Big Horn?
It’s so hard to tell now. The confusion of battle, interviews done years after the battle. Not to mention a large number of officers trying desperately to protect their own careers, and probably not to throw dead friends and comrades under the wagon. I’d actually be more inclined to believe the native Americans than the soldiers in this case. They had nothing to gain or lose at that point.
Buried in the ravine, and just disappeared over time. And erosion took control, the walls collapsed, water washed away and buried the bones, artifacts. The eyewitnesses told what they saw.
According to W.A. Graham's Custer book, the Indians reported seeing a charge of several dozen soldiers down a hill leading to a ravine. It was led by a man in a buckskin jacket, believed to be the scout Mitch Bouyer, and thought to be E Company, since they were on that side of the battle.
By all accounts, Mitch Bouyer was shot crossing the river along with Custer when they were attempting to capture women and children to use to stop the hostilities. It was well over 100 degrees those days so they all fought in shirt sleeves. Bouyer was killed by the Indians and Custer, shot through the chest was dragged from the river by his men.
@@markcrampton5873 A number of warriors who were on the west side of the river when Custer tried to cross have said the same thing. You'll need to conduct your own searches but that testimony does exist and I think it's reputable. And, if it is, then Custer was probably out of the fight early and was hauled up the hills in stages by his men, to find the highest point that from which, they might defend themselves. It is also surmised by several that his brother Tom may have shot him in the head to prevent him from falling into the hands of these Indians while still alive.
@@58landman According to what I read, the head wound appeared to be post-mortem, so it's possible it was one of the hostiles making sure he was dead, rather than any of his men.
@@58landman I also think its very plausible Custer was sidelined early on. If that was the case then I'm mulling over the idea Cuater's companies may have had time to retreat back up the hill and head for Reno's position. BUT as we know communication was nonexistent except for "Bring Packs"note. Custer was well known by the tribes he was chasing and with his flamboyant "uniform" he'd be Target #1 to pick off.
It is curious that no human remains were found in the ravine but too many eye witnesses say they saw bodies in the ravine both white and native. Unless remains are found, we will never know for sure. Good vid.
We are assuming that everyone was on the same page with the ident of "deep ravine". The western prairie grasslands are one rolling hill with a "ravine" after another. Western South Dakota looks exactly the same.....every mile looks the same and every ravine looks pretty much the same. Precise details erode with language, word meanings, and memories.
A lot of people think graves were "dug"... There is always the possibility that the sides of the ravine we're collapsed on the remains as that would have been easier....and now, with weathering, the remains are closer to the sides of the ravine, instead of in the center..
Following the battle, a detachment under a sergeant was dispatched with markers to place where bodies were found. Imagine transporting a wagon filled with markers from Washington DC to very rural Montana in the late 19th century. As the story goes, when the detachment arrived, they discovered they had more markers than places where solders fell. It being the Army, they had the option of transporting a bunch of heavy marble markers all the way back to Washington, or.......?
I've visited the Battlefield out there, and as it grew dark, the cries , screams and hollering can not only be heard but one can actually feel the sounds, softly coming from all sides.
One skeleton that will not be found in the ravine is that of Custer's bandleader, who Custer sent with all the band members to a steamboat on the Powder River. If Custer had his band along on the march....playing " Garry Owen"...Tom Brady would have fewer Super Bowl wins and the NFL would never have had one of its greatest kickers because that bandleader was Felix Vinatieri....the great grandfather of legendary kicker Adam Vinatieri, who holds 24 NFL records including the most points scored by any NFL player in history : 2,673. So, Custer did at least one thing right !
What would the depth limit be to using ground penetrating radar to search the area ? Couldn’t units be lowered into the ravine with rope or cable so both the sides and bottom could be scanned .
Maybe. The ground slope and overall stability of the immediate area made it much simpler to erect the markers on the ridge rather than the ravine itself.
Visited Custer’s memorial years ago. It felt strange that I was the only visitor there. No Park Rangers to be seen or found. I spent about 2-1/2 hours visiting the center and walking the grounds. From my perspective, there was absolutely no cover, just grassy land with rolling hills. There were white crosses here and there, some single, some in clusters. It wasn’t long before I came across a ravine and in studying it could easily imagine the Indians riding on horses to be well covered from sight, it was deep enough. I also, imagined if I was a soldier looking for cover, run immediately to that ravine, but be over run and killed by the Indians on horseback. Being alone, the only sound was the wind blowing. My imagination was running wild and made me want to leave.
Was the area searched after the fire that moved through years back which revealed an extreme amount of things left from the battle? Just curious as this has always been so fascinating to me. Thanks and I truly enjoyed this video. 👍
Fascinating video regarding the outcome of E Troop in the deep ravine. Not being a geologist or forensic scientist i defer to those who live in the area and have valid thoughts on the effects of 150 yrs of rain on the remains in the ravine. However, the multiple Lakota sources who claim to have seen troopers bodies in the ravine can’t be ignored. Neither can the officer assigned to the burial detail who knew some of the troopers personally. The bodies were there.
They are buried deeper and maybe in a different portion of Deep Ravine than previously thought. But too many eye witness accounts from Indian and Army cannot be disputed. More research is necessary to find them.
My mate and I went there in May 2022, it was very moving and atmospheric. An ambition of mine since the 60s when as a boy I watched They Died With Their Boots On and Custer Of The West. Of course at that time I was rooting for Custer, not now though.
Maybe the wrong ravine. Minchno speculates that the ravine may have been the one he named "Cemetery Ravine" which is not as far down the slope as Deep Ravine, and a bit more to the west. I'll have to pull it out and re-read his argument. Great stuff!
Impressive, detailed, nuanced presentation. My personal opinion is people must of fell there, ignore the eyewitnesses: it's an impressive terrain feature and would immediately have been seen for it's use militarily. Either incompetence or mutilation must be the causes considered for why this was not plotted on the map. Looking at the terrain from a psychological and human nature perspective, the ravine may have given rise to greater mutilation, given the hidden nature and after a humiliating defeat: gov at time did not want this info leaking out. That's my initial hunch.
Waterloo student here. I would consider myself extremely lucky If I had that many eyewitness accounts in agreement of 20-30 bodies in a specific location (from both sides) and would consider it essentially a fact. My best guess is they were moved out of the ravine so they wouldn't be washed away and buried near their comrades along what is called here the skirmish line.
I’ve been to the Custer Battlefield 3x. None of the witnesses had any reason to lie? I’m sure those men are there as their bodies were far too bloated and blackened to move. They were buried where they fell and the ravine walls washed in on them. Future excavations should start at the river and work their way up looking for boot nails, buttons, etc.
There is a way to tell: cadaver dogs. I was a cadaver dog handler for 22 years, and their talents are legendary. After I retired a friend with an excellent dog was part of a team called in by the NPS to an 1812 battlefield outside of Baltimore because the 100th anniversary was at hand and they expected lots of visitors from England visiting the Graves of relatives. There is a monument, but it was thought that the British cemetery was some distance from the monument. The dogs were able to determine that the remains were not at the graveyard, but actually directly under the monument!
Regardless if they where killed or not, everyone agrees there was fighting in the ravine, but to date nothing has ever been found indicating anything had ever happened.
Most that ran to Deep Ravine were out of ammo, extra ammo in saddlebags lost when horses held by horseholders stampeded. The flight to the ravine was to avoid being shot down/captured. In ravine. Troopers were out of Indian line of sight/line of fire. And like a rabbit under cover "out of sight is surely out of mind". As events proved, this choice was no safer because Deep Ravine was a blind draw with no way out (except way they came), and they were not out of Indians' minds, because Indians came to the crests of the ravine & shot them like "fish in a barrel".
I remember there was a fire on the site and they were able to gain easy access too look for and map all the shell cartridges. This was a brilliant method to separate the stories from hard facts. They even could identify the rifle the cartridge came from by the way the firing pin hit and marked the cartridge. Only factor that was a problem was determining when rifles had been taken and used by the indians fighting the battle.
Archaeology, History and Custer's Last Battle by Richard Allan Fox. Picked it up at the Fort Phil Kearney site and found it a pretty comprehensive study of the forensic evidence uncovered by that fire in 1983. Once I read it my following visits to LBH made everything I saw there make perfect sense. I've always believed the bodies were buried deeper. A heavy rain might wash them out but a summer of light to moderate rains would just move more dirt & debris into the ravine.
Their remains are still in deep ravine. They're just buried deeper at this point. That ravine is a much more active area than the upper areas of the battlefield. In the 50 years I've been going there the steeper inclines have noticeably changed and sluffed downwards.
The burial detail reports they buried the men in deep ravine by breaking loose dirt from the sides so it fell and covered the bodies. The difficulty of getting into the ravine and the unspeakable foulness of decomposition IMO accounts for the lack of markers and explains why the troopers buried there were forgotten by subsequent disinterment and reburial details.
When I visited the battlefield it was amazing but I had no faith whatsoever that any markers that I saw actually indicated anything with any precision as to who fell or was buried where. The confusion started with the fog of war on that day and has continued ever since to a certain extent.
As the story goes, the soldiers were ordered to bury the dead on the 28th. They had few tools to do so and scooped out the ground next to the body and rolled it over and into the shallow grave. The stench was terrible and there was much vomiting. The soldiers hated the job and accomplished their tasks as soon as possible and moved on. It is written that they came to the deep ravine and not wanting to jump down into it, shoved dirt from its rim into and covering the dead. Not a fun day. And now the years go by. What remains? Not much.
Has any of you felt a presence when your there. My sister said she felt the sadness or gloom when she visited. Im going to have to go there again by myself and just listen. I'm a believer in that spirits that are not at peace try to remain where they died. 150 yrs later . Im not so sure they d be still wandering. Just curious if anyone else got feelings of someone being there.
I have been there many times (over 20) and I di not see soldiers running into Deep Ravine for that was one of the major travel paths for the warriors, why would you run into the place they are emerging from? There were also plenty of remain bits found along the marker sites in the South Skirmish Line, I do not think the escapees from LSH made it as far as Deep Ravine
I'd take some echo sounding equipment out there and try to get some imaging deep underground. Terrain shifts over time so it's very possible they are buried deeper than usual
Thats holy ground…The study after the big burn in the 80’s took a year to get approval….You dont just go wandering around w equipment…Same reason they didnt disturb the hull of PT 109 when they found it….Its a war grave…Let them rest…if you want adventure go South around the edge of the Big Horns to the March Route and look for the gold and the bag pipes buried somewhere out there
@@forrestmosby7118 Take it easy there Mr. ethics ranger. Maybe finding something would bring some closure to the families. Get approval then go look. Besides you're not digging anything with sonar anyways and the park lets people walk all over the battlefield so I'd say that "holy ground" has been thoroughly trampled already. Try going to Dakota war battlefields in Minnesota. Many of the sites would've never been discovered had it not been for people digging around.
Closure to families from 1876?…K….There probably are a few older ladies waiting for hubs to ride back into Ft Lincoln…I was there 2 yrs after the burn but before Nat Geo released its article and they did find a body then….I guess us old 7th Cav vets should let it go….shoot..whats a memorial these days anyway?… prob find a couple wokesters that would love to remove the big monument at Last Stand Hill…only a couple 100 troopers buried under there…just bones….Yankees took Bobbys Arlington and filled it w dead…lets metal detect there too…Plenty of old buttons and crap laying around there and its not even a battlefield…topple a few statues while they are at it…Glad you pointed me in the right direction..👍
@@forrestmosby7118 Make sure not to drive anywhere anymore since you might drive over a spot where somebody died in a car accident. It's hallowed ground you know... Look whacko if it wasn't for people digging around we wouldn't know anything about what happened with any battle. Go outside and see the sunlight before you have an aneurysm.
@@sgtstedanko7186 as Sister Mary Elephant said: Thank You…::name calling is the last resort of the incompetent when their arguments wont hold water…. Let the digging begin👍
The book on the 1985 survey of the battlefield reported that backhoe were used to trench the ravine. The video is correct that no bodies were found. However, the backhoes dug to their limits of safety. What was found was garbage and erosion control that was dated to the 1930s. This suggested that any remains are deeply buried past the limits of the equipment.
Multiple testamony about bodies in the Deep Ravine would seem to confirm that up to 30 soldiers died there regardless of what some digging around revealed. It's a ravine because it would channel water, whether a little or a lot. Its there for a reason. I understand the river itself has changed channels so whether digging around in the river would hold any answers is questionable. But several testamonies all seemingly confirming each other would seem to carry the most weight.
Burial party. Lower ranking enlisted. Decomposing bodies in a deep ravine. I would say either dirt from the top or not dealt with. If they were in there. I thought I read once that a few were found in a “draw” at the bottom of a slope. That could be the gentler one you showed.
As you said in the video, the horses were run off leaving the troopers afoot. It was actually a suicide charge by young teenager Indian boys looking to make a name for themselves that did it. It sealed the 7th's fate.
Not a geologist but my theory is theyre most likely still there..land changes over time whether by nature or by humans..someone pointed out that perhaps some of the ravine was purposely collapsed to bury the bodies as an quicker method to intern the remains..accounts can also differ from person to person of the same time frame oddly enough.
The Cheyenne camp was located nearest Deep Ravine. Also at Medicine Tail Coulee, the river crossing was not a viable crossing at the time. Warriors reported to Crazy Horse while at the Reno fight, that women and children 'had been captured' on the opposite end of valley gathering and he turned around and headed to engage Custer's forces.
The remains are still in Deep Ravine, just buried deeper due to erosion and run-off. I was a forested for 9 years working in mountain regions. It is amazing how much earth can get washed away. Obviously, over time the remains got washed into the bottom and covered with eroded earth. They're there. Just buried deeper at the bottom of the ravine.
Dig the format you tell your tales with...More content Please! 🏴Id just like to say “companies” were carryovers from a time before America was called America....It was a European thing , England especially, just groups of mercenaries headed by some Aristocrat that went his own way and needed a team...Kinda like land pirates....When you mentioned the companies had their own brand colors identities I remembered this from my European studies....Read up on English badass John Talbot, had a dog on his flag, did lots of work in Italy made lots of $$$....
I have been to the Little Big Horn, I have seen the terrain, and my guess is there are many troops, Sioux, and allied tribals who were never recovered. There would have had to have been a thousand men on that field, walking shoulder to shoulder, covering every acre of ground for probably a section of land. There were not that many sent to do a thorough search for all the dead. My guess is that the Sioux and allies recovered their dead or almost all of them. US troops probably Recovered the easily recovered and left the rest chalked up to MIA.
I would think no one would bury a body in a ravine regardless of condition. They would at least drag them to the top of the ravine so the grave would not wash out in the future. How many bodies are missing from the battle?
I grew up in a rural area in central Canada and handling and directing water, especially spring runoff, was very much a part of our lives. That deep ravine will have some years where the water just flows more or less gently down to the river. But then on some years, you get fast thaws, or maybe a torrential downpour/flash flood every half dozen years that just flushes out ravines like that. As you said, the decomposing bodies would not have been deeply buried. If there was a torrential downpour within the next year or so, it could well have flushed the remains downstream into the river. I've seen an unusual summer downpour carve two or three feet of dirt out of the bottom of gullies. The banks will slowly slump in over the years, and that can once again fill in the flash-flood type gullies. The bottom line is that, looking at that gully, anything buried at the bottom of it will get flushed out in one of those rare, flash-flood/torrential downpours that occur from time to time.
Yup- they call those kinds of storms "Gulley Washers " for a reason.
Great points you two,seriously e-mail the Park System/Historian that is certainly plausible
Video said over time the high walls of deep ravine collapsed some perhaps covering the shallow graves.That was before the 80s excavations and with the thick growth in there could they use ground penetrating radar or simply to difficult to get at.People can be assuming it was done when it wasn't or even wolves/coyote's carrying off body parts
Grew up in Northern UT, yep seen the same types of thing if there was a heavy snow pack.
Great theory, parallels my own considering steepness & seasonal run-off. However, to take it one step further, it's reasonable to assume the burial detail (as a rule, a people by & large much more in tune with the environment than most are today) naturally considered/anticipated this & transferred these bodies up to the mass burial site at the monument. (by hand to horse travois up the creek bed, to wagon or all the way by travois) Why? If it was impossible to bury them where they lay, command would then not necessarily want them buried at the more reasonable slopes at the head of the ravine & risk confusing the layout. Consider context likely mattered to them as much as it does to us today. They took great care everywhere (as much as possible) to mark bodies in situ. Not taking the ravine casualties all the way to the monument would have confused the investigation/legacy/layout of a profound battlefield they surely knew had "Memorial in Perpetuity" written all over it. Many present were Civil War veterans keenly aware of the historic magnitude of such occasions.
Perhaps I've read many times because of the heat, and what two days,the diggers were just too overwhelmed with the horrific stench and hordes of flies.These guys were just slapped together not trained undertakers with hazmet gear & breathing apparatus. Dirty Job - better call Mike Rowe
I have an ancestor who was an E company trooper. After much study of and fascination with the battle, it is my belief that his remains are in Deep Ravine.
My theory is the survivors on burial detail found it too difficult at the time to retrieve the bodies from Deep Ravine. I think it was easier for them to dig, knock down or shove the steep sides down into the ravine to cover the bodies there. That is why it no longer resembles the eye witnesses accounts of a " deep ravine ". The troopers are there. They are just deeper than most people realize.
I concur with that thought plus they were then out of sight and out of mind, I believe they are there too.
I Concur Also...
Yes I believe their still in the deep ravine also.
Intersting thought, maybe you are right but maybe not. It occured to me that when a deluge occurs out west, then everything in a ravine gets washed away and covered up and sometimes it lies quite far from its original location. There may have been enough time since the battle to have had a deluge or two, so there may be no traces, i. e. bones, leather boot rests, buttons, shell casings, rusty spoons, etc., to be found and one job of the squaws was to scavange the battlefield taking everything they could, so there may not be as many traces as one may think. This is out west, so there were also coyotes or wolves around in the summer which smelled the blood and the smell from bacteria starting to decay flesh from the summer heat right after the battle and they can crush bones with sharp teeth for its marrow. All sorts of varmints gnaw on bones for its minerals, just take a look at the teeth marks on an antler which has been on the ground for a couple of years. Just a couple of things to ponder.
The people assigned to the burial detail probably didn't realize the significance of this battle would have for future generations. And that the location of the fallen soldiers would be individually marked. They probably did their duty as quickly as possible, so I believe the bodies are still there.
I have been to LBH Battlefield twice. This is a mystery to me. I talked to a park ranger about this. He said that "nothing" was found in the deep ravine excavation. This excavation was quite extensive. I had long thought the bodies (bones?) were there but were removed for burial at the mass brave under the monument. But I have to believe that if there were 20+ soldiers killed in the deep ravine then there would have been at least some evidence such as buttons, bullets, casing etc. The lack of these artifacts in the ravine is at the core of this mystery. BTW, I have heard many theories on how much fighting was done on certain places on the battlefield based on forensic evidence. While true to a point, we must remember that this battlefield was picked over by souvenir hunters for decades. I personally know of an account of acquaintance of my father (who is now 86), who worked in that area prior to WWII. He had two five gallon buckets of things he scavenged. The removal of artifacts prior to modern battlefield forensics has to be taken into account.
Agree. .Times Change..things Move.
The Indians stripped them of their cloths. so buttons wouldn't be found.
@@barbarapatterson4132 i think in the other videos in this series some bodies were identified and names added to markers because buttons were found.
John McMorris , perhaps your father's acquaintence had a father/friend/relative who collected the scavenged articles .Because that doesn't sound right as WWII started basically in 1940 that's 82 ys ago so that fellow was only like 4 yrs old then and couldn't possibly have worked in that area prior to the War.Also I believe the poster Kirk Dunston above has a very plausible explanation and if I had to bet it all I would guess his theory is accurate
@@bigwoody4704 BW.
You are correct. The person who collected the artifacts was at least 20-25 years older than my father. He was not the same generation as my father. The gentleman I referenced lived in a tiny town in northeast Missouri and I have talked others who knew him that had seen his collection. I do not know what became of the relics.
This was very interesting! I have visited the Battle of the Little Bighorn twice and it is eerie. You can almost feel the tenseness in the air on the battlefield. I believe there is still much unknown about this famous battle.
The only tenseness I felt was keeping a eye for rattlesnakes as they do lay along the trails.
Thank You. As a former military officer I greatly appreciate whatyou are doing in these videos. GOD Bless All who serve, served, and their families. Amazing work and history. Peace & Health
Murderers
@@thomashealey291 no, not even close. Soldiers who served the USA. IF, IF You live ANY way other than as the Natives, you are a beneficiary of the advancement. Also WE ALL KNOW, even the Natives say, the tribes were NOT, ever, peaceful. They warred against each other and enslaved and killed. They took property and lives on a regular basis. NOT innocent. So, either you are confused or a hypocrit. Peace & Health
@@MyelinProductions All groups of people kill and take advantage of other groups of people. Just how it was/ is. Don't be hatin'. Just strive to be better going fwd. Peace.
@@chriswalter7419 "hatin'" - WOW! Not at all. The "natives" were NEVER peaceful, their OWN History reveals this. They conquered and were in time & turn conquered. The native peoples sought to erase each other centuries before the White/European EVER showed up - same as Africans did/do to Africans, Europeans did/do to Europeans, Asians did/do to Asians, etc etc etc - But Thankfully we have modern advanced technology and science because WE, USA, expanded. No hate at all. Peace & health to Us All - Be Safe out there. Thank You.
I was there a couple years ago with the wife and kids, the entire area is very well marked out. Who died were, etc. We were on top of the hill over looking the scene, when my son pops off with ; hey were are the horses buried? Then we turned around. On the back side of the hill, a place were each horse was found was marked. This is a great piece of history for all Americans to see and study.
The Battlefield is indeed an amazing place to visit. It is the only one I have ever visited, where a sense of how big the battle was..the markers where people passed makes that much clear. On my visit, I didn’t have much time to walk around, but I still got a good sense where everything happened.
where markers are found in pairs, it likely means that's where horse and trooper fell and were buried. The markers were placed sometime later at locations where the grass was greener (better fertilized).
@@greenflagracing7067 When you go there. The horses were just on the other side were the big wall with the names of all the Indians on it. The markers for the horses is there.
During my visit there last year, and my subsequent reading on the battle, I seem to recall either some after action report, or testimony during one of the later inquiries, where someone commented about the stench coming from Deep Ravine during the investigation 3 days after the battle, which would indicate a large number of dead bodies contained within. I also remembered at the time wondering why there were no markers inside the ravine.
Having visited the battlefield and reading as much as I can about it, I'm surprised that anyone (or anything) was properly reported. The grass fire in the 1990s(?) I think gave archeologists their best look and best evidence of what happened.
As for the Deep Ravine, "The Last Stand" specifically talks about soldiers in an area fitting that description. So I tend to believe that the soldiers died there, but were buried so deep, they are not visible.
the grass fire was in 1983 (just to clarify) and it was a god send for archaeoligists. Some of the things they discovered were fantastic, like the oral histories of the Indians were correct and they were better armed than the soldiers. But in my mind was when they were able use forensics to identify the bullet casings from one soldier as he fought his way up to finally die on Last Stand Hill!
@@korbell1089 The Firearms Examiner from Nebraska State Police Lab was the ballistics go-to. The soil being so hard maintained the bullet holes so well they were able to laser off angles. Then depending on the cartridge/rifle calculate where the bullet came from and distance. Lot of lead was fired that day. I met the examiner in the early 2000's and he showed me some of the photos from fired cases off the battlefield. I really think another major grass fire would be beneficial while the original major investigators are still with us.
I would wager the bodies are there, and the topography has changed slightly since the battle (sides of ravine collapsing, etc), such that the bodies are now very deep underground.
I agree. They are very deeply buried now due to the collapse of the ravine walls.
Agreed, too many reports from both sides that clearly state the direct eyewitness accounts from that area. Because nothing was found is no reason to discredit first hand information.
The soil & substrate are loose here, with a lot of loose rock and/or shale, contributing to slippage. There is no doubt the bodies could have been covered over several times since the battle. If burial detail had sloughed in the sides to cover the bodies (as suspected) there could be several feet of cover over the bodies.
I don't doubt the eyewitnesses that there were soldiers killed in the ravine but we're making a logical leap when we assume because that's where they fell that's where they were buried. It takes a few minutes to drag a body out of the ravine, even if it's 3 days decomposed, and I would definitely do so if time allowed otherwise every spring with snow melt there's a chance of the shallow grave being uncovered by water.
I do remember a skeleton remains were found in the side of a ravine within the past 20-30 years. It washed out and was found by someone not looking for artifacts. This person notified the proper people and the site was excavated. A skull was found and a clay reconstruction was done by a forensic team. The trooper was able to be identified from his military photo in the 7th archives. I might be wishful thinking, but I think he was identified as being from E troop.
You might be thinking of Sgt Miles O'Hara, who was killed in the valley fight. In my Stories From the Little Bighorn playlist, there is a documentary called Custer's Last Trooper that covers this story.
@@TheStoryOutWest I think that's right. Wasn't there also a soldier named Moody who was found in the river bank in the valley as well?
My recollection also is that this was a trooper associated with the valley fight, he died at the river, and when the rivers course here changed ~130 yrs later part of his skeleton was exposed. A forensic reconstruction of his skull was able to identify him.
Yes, one of them at least, was Sergeant Miles O'Hara. O'Hara was the first soldier to come to grief in the battle. For all of that, O'Hara wasn't in E. Troop; he was part of Reno's battalion.
The trooper was Vincent Charlie, I believe he was Company K's farrier. He was shot through both hips during the retreat from Weir Point and left behind. When they found his body 3 days later, a stick had been shoved down his throat. On the Custer part of the battlefield they found some facial bones that had to have come from Mitch Bouyer Many believe Bouyer led the last breakout attempt from Last Stand Hill and it consisted of a handful of troopers as well as Boston Custer and Autie Reed.
All I can say as an ex soldier myself, is leave them be. They earned their rest and whatever we do now is not for them but to satisfy our own curiosity. They deserve to be left alone. Put up a marker by all means but leave them in the peace they have earned and deserve.
Preach it Bruth’a
@@jonathansparks3386 it's his view , not preaching
I come from a line of service people and I'd just like to think someone sent blessings over them . Life is tough it's a long time not to have blessed words over . Maybe coming from a line of sailors it's superstition 💙 you have served I don't know your beliefs but I would imagine you have strong ones . From one man to another god bless you 👊
@@matthewevans3292 As a Christian, I've learned to pray for the living, that they make it to heaven, once the spirit has left, it's a done deal. I pray frequently for our troops, sailors, etc. in all branches. The saber rattling is loud now and I don't want to wait for an attack to start praying.
Hell no, if I died on a battlefield I'd want to be sent back home and not left where I laid
I think an intense metal detection should take place in that ravine to discover any metal pieces such as buttons, belts, guns, to find bodies still hidden within that terrain.
This topography is weathered by wind and rain. We in the PNW call these “finger ridges” as they radiate like fingers on your hand with the Little Bighorn river flowing far below. Maj. Reno held out on top of a knuckle, so to speak!
May the rest in peace now, wherever they lie, both the troopers and the braves. Sadly, boys, the world has learned no better sense since you last walked upon it.
You mean Custer right?
i like how custer was portrayed in Little Big Man, old Dustin Hoffmann film. custer would not have cared for it
Same as it ever was.
As a Native American who currently lives on a reservation, I hope his soul and the souls of his men find no peace. They will walk our plains as ghosts, forever searching for something they'll never find.
@@Sam_the_Sham_and_the_Pharoahs it's a good thing that you're so unhappy and bitter. You've earned it.
The bullets tell the story of the battle. Theres a documentary about a group that mapped the bullets and artifacts. Fascinating stuff.
I’ve visited this battlefield twice, but I’m puzzled and I honestly have no idea. The eyewitness accounts seem clear, but lack of evidence makes this a mystery unlikely to be solved at this late date. However, I greatly appreciate your inquiries into the matter as all the men who fought there, on both sides, were of great courage and deserving of great respect. Every time I stand on any battleground and reflect, I’m struck by one overwhelming thought; May God save us from ourselves.
Amen, bro....
Well spoken, sir. I live near Gettysburg, and have visited the battlefield often. It is still overwhelming, and depressing to realize the extent of the death and destruction there. As well documented as that place is( many photos taken in the aftermath as well) there are still discrepancies in exact timing and movement of the forces there.
@Rob Eastwood I would certainly think that the most likely scenario. Through the years, they probably washed down into the river and far downstream. This seems the most plausible explanation to me at any rate.
The reason God won't save us from ourselves is that there is no god and never was.. Neither was there a pregnant married virgin riding a donkey at christmas.. I am from the 1st world..
I grew up near the Battlefield and visited it many times and read books and articles on the subject. I used to think that the mysteries related to Little Bighorn were unique and that it's too bad we can't know "the real story" of what happened, but as I've grown older and read and studied history, I've come to know that pretty much every event and aspect of history is subject to the ambiguities of human memory and perspective. Still, it's so intriguing to study and analyze and hopefully/maybe learn from.
I only made it there once about ten years ago. There is nothing like walking those hills, seeing how steep they are and the lay of the land. You can start seeing puzzle pieces fall into place. The most sobering one for me was the hill that Reno's troops and horse had to climb. Those were not good horses to start with, then they were run down with so many miles on the trail, then expect the horse to jump into the river, swim for it, climb out the east side and THEN climb that incredibly steep and tall hill and THEN try to make a fighting position.
They were operating on sheer adrenaline and divine intervention to go through that gauntlet. It would be tough for a muscular, in-shape Quarter Horse to do that today. The horse would be puffing pretty hard when reached the top.
I've been to CBNM & walked Deep Ravine 3 times over past 50 yrs, have vast library of Custer/LBH books, pamphlets, much 1st hand sources & long oop (e.g. Hein, "Memories of Long Ago").
IMCO, from reading the source mat'l, I think a hasty "burial" was made by shoveling soil from top of Deep Ravine embankment onto bodies; no one had time, inclination or tools for proper burials. A few years later, the official burial party missed a number of significant areas on battlefield. This included Deep Ravine, so bodies there weren't disenterred for burial elsewhere. So, when permanent headstones were erected, Deep Ravine largely overlooked, with no intention of placing markers on wall or top of ravine to mark bodies within.
Could bodies from Deep Ravine have been relocated--say, to Last Stand Hill group enterrment moument--in one of the 19th century battlefield cleanups? Theoretically, yes. But sources are silent on this.
I wonder too. But, by the time they were able to move the bodies, would they? The decomposition of the bodies would be far along and very unpleasant to work with - particularly since they would have been working bare handed. Decomposing bodies are the worst smell I've ever experienced. It gets in your nose and stays there for days. I'm not saying they didn't do this, but unless someone forced me at gunpoint I would never do it without modern protective gear.
@@blueindigo1000 The post battle, 1st person accts confirm this. The only "specialized" piece of equipment was a bandana around nose & mouth. Flies/maggots, stench everywhere. Serious skin slippage. Much wretching. Not a lot of entrenching shovels--boards torn from ammo, hardtack packing crates used in absence of shovels. That, and the need to quickly press on with the campaign were the reasons dirt & brush were loosely, thinly thrown over most bodies. A BIG effort to protect & bury Custer (and somewhat lesser extent, Tom) was ordered by Terry, out of respect for the widely regarded wife, Libbey, Custer's Civil War hero status, and anticipated exhumation & reinterrment to west point.
@@josephstabile9154 There were few shovels or pickaxes available to bury the dead. They used plates and broken canteens to scoop out graves. The men, most of them, died on the 25th and were buried on the 28th. Records from the time say that the stench was terrible. The bodies had not been left alone. The Indians chopped them up and dismembered them, so it was a gruesome mess. For years after people would visit the site and pick up bones. I read that most bars around those parts had a skull on display found at the site of the Battle of the Little Bighorn.
Ive been there, walked it and studied it…I tried to be there the last week of June but weather in the area put me there July 1-2…close enough to get the feel of the place….Ive only felt what I felt while walking there in 2 other places, Shiloh and Gettysburg….Eerie if you avoid the tour groups and walk where you want…
.....been a drummer all my life....when I saw the bloodied field drum behind the glass at the Gettysburg museum, I had chills...
I have stood in the general area where my great grandfather and his brother fought at Sharpsburg and Gettysburg. That was eerie
If you are receptive, or ‘tuned in’ those places speak to you…The scene in Apocalypse Now, at the Do Long Bridge, when the guys were trying to swim to the boats to leave, was based directly on Pittsburg Landing on the evening of the first day at Shiloh…if you stand there at twilight and overlay that scene you can actually see it….
roaming around in Donner national Park will definjitely bring feelings of eerie visitors too
Old photos taken months and even a year or so after this event show all sorts of bones and skeletons on the ground. No doubt some of these were animal remains, but who knows. Another point: animals could have dragged off the dead, or consumed parts of them, in the immediate days after the battle.
Agree.
Lotta fat cayotes running around soon after the Battle.
Mostly horse bones in those photos
I've always felt the most surprising thing about the battle field is how much area it encompasses. I wouldn't be at all surprised they continue to find remains and artifacts for a very long time. That area probably looks the same today as when the battle occured.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video-thank you for producing it! Here are my observations based on the information that you presented:
A. It seems like a very solid assumption the the deep ravine topographical feature is what is historically referred to as the “deep ravine.”
B. Post-battle reports (from both belligerents) seem to confirm the number and location of the 28 fallen troopers. The presence of bullets and casings in the ravine are likely further confirmation.
C. Your assumption on the remains (due to 3 days of summertime decomposition) were not likely relocated may or may not be solid. Perhaps the only “evidence” that this assumption is faulty is the “too many markers” on the south skirmish line and no markers/remains discovered in the ravine.
I live in the desert of southern Arizona, so my impressions on rainfall impact on topography and specifically its “swallowing” items on the surface is likely skewed. In the Arizona desert what’s on the surface tends to stay on the surface for a very long time (unlike other regions where surface items “sink” into muddy soil). With my desert-bias in mind, I think that if the remains were buried in the ravine, that remains would’ve been found in the ravine.
I've been able to visit " The Deep Ravine" site 4 times and this mystery about the bodies is always fascinating. I'll take an educated guess. Too many eyewitnesses both Indian and soldiers have said they found about half the bodies in Deep Ravine.
Why would the bodies be moved? Maybe because nobody camps, builds or buries bodies in a wash (ravine), because eventually it will be flooded. Interested in your take on that TSOW. Thanks for the vid.
Saw your Fetterman Video. Consider doing The Wagon Box Fight a few miles and months later. Thanks
This mystery has always fascinated me. There are too many reliable witnesses to discount the location. My opinion (everybody's got one) is that if the bodies were lightly covered by dirt it would only take a couple of good rains to either wash the bones further down and or bury them deeper over time. Bones exposed to the elements especially sunlight don't last very long and break into smaller slivers. I think they are down there but not in too many identifiable pieces after a hundred and fifty years.
Bluke Blue. As I watched the video and considered the points made, I too came to the same (very possible) conclusion you did.
This is my conclusion as well.
What about coyotes, wild dogs and maybe wolves. After 3 days of decomposing bodies could be easily torn apart.
Also as Burke Blue wrote a couple of heavy rains and the remains of the bodies could have been washed further down the creek, and in wet conditions for 150 years they would have al but disappeared.
On a follow up and personal note about the battle especially regarding Co. E, a possible relative of mine, Private Stella, was one of Co. E's casualties.
@@RLee-zs1ds …ALL the above. Wind, rain…predation and erosion. I for one don’t believe that IF they were buried IN the ravine..they were NOT buried deep.
I agree with you because history has always taught us that eyewitnesses, although vary in slight detail, are correct in the overall story of an incident.
GREAT VIDEO! I love history and know some of what happened that the battle but this is new and thank you for your continuing work
I wouldn't go so far as to say that multiple eye witnesses can or will give similar accounts which vary in slight detail. Case in point....when I was in college I was taking a few Journalism courses and one dealt with reporting, witnesses, how to question them and then write as factual an article as you might be able to construct from so many sources. One morning I was in class and the instructor was lecturing and during the first 5-10 minutes of his lecture a furious student jerked open the door, screamed a few choice words at the prof and the fired a revolver at him several times. The professor grabbed his chest and hit the floor and his shooter ran out and slammed the door.
Women screamed and some began to wail, the males were shocked and only a couple of people began to move toward the downed instructor but the were terrified too and didn't know what to do. After about a minute the instructor stood up and looked at the class and told us to write exactly what we saw.....what was he discussing, what did the perp look like and what was he wearing, what did he say or did not say, what kind of gun did he use, how many shots did he fire, did he point his gun at the class, which way did he run when he left, etc.
Absolutely less than 10% of that 40-50 student class were 90% correct and in agreement with what had occurred and I believe that those budding writers received the best lesson in paying attention to everything around them and remembering what they heard and saw and to confirm it, the prof and his shooter handed out an exact copy of everything that they had planned for us that morning....verbatim. The rule is pay careful attention, watch and listen......
I worked at Little Bighorn for over 30 years and used a backhoe to uncover the water history in the bottom Deep Ravine. For several hundred years the walls were vertical in the upper end, most of the dead were buried in loose shale at the base of these bluffs. After the battle this loose soil was a advantage with the few digging tools available for burial. In subsequent years the rain caused these to fall in burying the bodies to a substantial depth, they are no longer at the slope toe. Soldiers from fort Custer established in 1878 filled the upper end with river rock to try to stop erosion, and were found over 6 feet deep.
7 seconds into the first video:
me: Yeah, I'm going to enjoy this channel
My guess is that, despite the fact that it had been three days, the initial burial party pulled the bodies out of the ravine and buried them further up the slope.
My money is on that too
or over the last 100 year the remains have 1 washed way or decomposed . fact human remains decompose faster in the open air or water or wet soil than if there in dry soil
Yes probably used ropes to pull them up out of there
@@danielblackburn1241 That's an interesting thought. I've had another one though. Is it possible that, at some later time, possibly over a period of time, the bodies were simply washed out of the ravine and down into the river?
EDIT: And I see that daniellastuart has anticipated me in that thought.
Metal detecting at the bottom of the ravine would do 2 things - Prove there was activity at the bottom of the ravine and give you an idea of soil depth at the time of the battle.
I was one of the volunteers that went through the battlefield, searching for anything left open by the fire from years prior. Major excavation and devices were employed in 'deep ravine,' the results, nothing was found there. Can't speak to speculation, but quite interested as well.
I appreciate your research and experience
I think their in the ravine, but the years have caused the bodies to be buried deep and you have to consider what happens to bodies. There is a book entitled the Mystery of E troop which talks about this and what may have happened to the bodies. Seeing picture of the 1980's search I think they were looking in the wrong area the pictures show a pretty wide and shallow area where they were looking. I think this is also way the extra markers are on the battlefield instead on in the ravine.
What’s interesting about the book you mentioned is that Gregory Michno, the author, concludes the exact opposite- that there were never any bodies in Deep Ravine. It’s a fantastic book.
@@TheStoryOutWest usually the most obvious and simplest answer is the correct one.
Scavengers could have scattered the bones too.
@@huntclanhunt9697 Good point and good possibility!
I'm related to 2Lt Sturgis and his father was General Sam Sturgis, whom Sturgis South Dakota was named for; allegedly Major Reno was in love with Lt. Sturgis' sister but it was unrequited. Just a historical interjection, R.I.P. to all the victims of this battle.
Awesome I live in spearfish I love this tidbit historical fact
@@westt9030 Nice post, West. It's true as far as I know, check it out sometime.
@@eagleman1542 I just saw on a video where they put together a makeshift grave for 2 lieutenant Sturgis so his mom could have a place to mourn at.
Fort Meade is right outside Sturgis. Named after Gen Meade of Civil War fame. He was overshadowed by Custer's ego out west so I don't know much of his western work.
Wasn’t Stugis the one who was court martialed and drummed out for voyeurism against this young lady???
150 years of weather and erosion can cover remains. I suppose nobody really knows but I am inclined to believe that they were killed in and around the ravine. I have been to the site only once but I can imagine myself running down and along the ravine, trying to escape. There is no logic in a hot firefight.
The pictures of carved up soldiers show some of the viciousness of the fight. They were getting the hell out of Dodge.
In Canada, ground penetrating radar was used to locate the unmarked graves or may presumed victims of our residential school system. The same technology may be helpful at Deep Ravine.
The original claim has been discredited because actual excavations of some sites revealed no bodies or signs of bodies.
Excellent video well done. I think there are many things about Custers section of the Little Bighorn Battlefield that will be a mystery. The fate of E Company is just one of them. I read elsewhere that the remains of Custer buried at West Point, may not even be Custer’s.
If you read the account of how George Custer's remains were recovered, it is very unlikely that the remains at West Point were George's. George Custer is still at The Little Big Horn with his men, as it should be.
@@JAG312 RIP, GAC if you can
I've read that too. It was detailed at the time of burial that Custer and his brother were buried together, wrapped in a blanket. When the detail went back to dig up their bodies to bring back east no remains recovered had been found to be buried in that way.
Not all remains of Custer are buried at "Worst Point" there is an story of an tobacco bag made out of his....
@@steffenrosmus9177 I think that story comes from one of the chiefs killed at Sand Creek
I've walked the paths on the field of battle and also read a number of books on the subject. I think it is good to keep an open mind and consider all the possibilities since we'll never really "know." Anyway, I am enjoying your content and look forward to seeing what other stories from out west you take on.
I do not know where these men are buried. With all the controversies, more research is definitely needed.
There is still hostility between the Souix and whites. Perhaps, further careful digging and study will end the cotroversies and the anger and hostility in part.
@@glenmartin2437 The actual battle site is Federal Parks. I know the Crow have a small rez across the road to the north and west. The Sioux/Lakota are mostly in South Dakota with Pine Ridge being the worst for many things.
The Fedora and you are a perfect match for one another. Very smart looking.
Either hard rains removed/scattered the remains downstream, or the walls caved in and have buried the bodies. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Fair Winds Troopers you served and fought the best you knew how.
The bodies are in that ravine. I served 27 years in the infantry. I know Soldiers, how we think, from officer to enlisted. The former company commander was tasked with burying those men who he served with. Some of these were once his brothers. I'm certain that dirt wasn't just thrown on top of them. They were dragged, slid, and gently rolled to the bottom of the ravine, nobody is dragging a swollen, rotten corpse up hill. In the bottom of that ravine, they were buried. Since the sides have collapsed in the many years since, the depth of those graves is a fair way down. Rest in peace Soldiers.
So well researched, and the video so professionally done. Excellent!
It's a shame there's not more about the burial detail in ore detail! I saw an interesting documentary on cadaver dogs. A friend of an archeologist had brought his trained dog to a dig site and the dog was pointing different places, it was going everywhere! At first they thought the dog was confused but they tested a spot, and found a skeleton! The dog had found a battlefield from hundreds of years ago! Just yards from the dig site. Wonder if they could try that at Little Big Horn?
It’s so hard to tell now. The confusion of battle, interviews done years after the battle. Not to mention a large number of officers trying desperately to protect their own careers, and probably not to throw dead friends and comrades under the wagon. I’d actually be more inclined to believe the native Americans than the soldiers in this case. They had nothing to gain or lose at that point.
Buried in the ravine, and just disappeared over time. And erosion took control,
the walls collapsed, water washed away and buried the bones, artifacts. The eyewitnesses told what they saw.
According to W.A. Graham's Custer book, the Indians reported seeing a charge of several dozen soldiers down a hill leading to a ravine. It was led by a man in a buckskin jacket, believed to be the scout Mitch Bouyer, and thought to be E Company, since they were on that side of the battle.
By all accounts, Mitch Bouyer was shot crossing the river along with Custer when they were attempting to capture women and children to use to stop the hostilities. It was well over 100 degrees those days so they all fought in shirt sleeves. Bouyer was killed by the Indians and Custer, shot through the chest was dragged from the river by his men.
@@bobwallace9814 By all accounts? Where did you get that from ?
@@markcrampton5873 A number of warriors who were on the west side of the river when Custer tried to cross have said the same thing. You'll need to conduct your own searches but that testimony does exist and I think it's reputable. And, if it is, then Custer was probably out of the fight early and was hauled up the hills in stages by his men, to find the highest point that from which, they might defend themselves. It is also surmised by several that his brother Tom may have shot him in the head to prevent him from falling into the hands of these Indians while still alive.
@@58landman According to what I read, the head wound appeared to be post-mortem, so it's possible it was one of the hostiles making sure he was dead, rather than any of his men.
@@58landman I also think its very plausible Custer was sidelined early on. If that was the case then I'm mulling over the idea Cuater's companies may have had time to retreat back up the hill and head for Reno's position. BUT as we know communication was nonexistent except for "Bring Packs"note. Custer was well known by the tribes he was chasing and with his flamboyant "uniform" he'd be Target #1 to pick off.
Enjoyed the well researched video. Hopefully they will do a more detailed archeology dig.
It is curious that no human remains were found in the ravine but too many eye witnesses say they saw bodies in the ravine both white and native. Unless remains are found, we will never know for sure. Good vid.
We are assuming that everyone was on the same page with the ident of "deep ravine". The western prairie grasslands are one rolling hill with a "ravine" after another. Western South Dakota looks exactly the same.....every mile looks the same and every ravine looks pretty much the same. Precise details erode with language, word meanings, and memories.
A lot of people think graves were "dug"...
There is always the possibility that the sides of the ravine we're collapsed on the remains as that would have been easier....and now, with weathering, the remains are closer to the sides of the ravine, instead of in the center..
Following the battle, a detachment under a sergeant was dispatched with markers to place where bodies were found. Imagine transporting a wagon filled with markers from Washington DC to very rural Montana in the late 19th century. As the story goes, when the detachment arrived, they discovered they had more markers than places where solders fell. It being the Army, they had the option of transporting a bunch of heavy marble markers all the way back to Washington, or.......?
I've visited the Battlefield out there, and as it grew dark, the cries , screams and hollering can not only be heard but one can actually feel the sounds, softly coming from all sides.
Oh come on. What a crock.
@@58landman believe what you want
Oh please.
Thanks for this- have read extensively around this and yours is new and well researched
Very interesting video. I had never heard this subject discussed before.
One skeleton that will not be found in the ravine is that of Custer's bandleader, who Custer sent with all the band members to a steamboat on the Powder River. If Custer had his band along on the march....playing " Garry Owen"...Tom Brady would have fewer Super Bowl wins and the NFL would never have had one of its greatest kickers because that bandleader was Felix Vinatieri....the great grandfather of legendary kicker Adam Vinatieri, who holds 24 NFL records including the most points scored by any NFL player in history : 2,673. So, Custer did at least one thing right !
Interesting 🤔
Im whistling
Fascinating.
One decision impacting history like that...
butterfly effect
What would the depth limit be to using ground penetrating radar to search the area ? Couldn’t units be lowered into the ravine with rope or cable so both the sides and bottom could be scanned .
Maybe. The ground slope and overall stability of the immediate area made it much simpler to erect the markers on the ridge rather than the ravine itself.
Brilliant forensic study of the LBH battlefield. Thanks for sharing!
Dig deeper !!
Visited Custer’s memorial years ago. It felt strange that I was the only visitor there. No Park Rangers to be seen or found. I spent about 2-1/2 hours visiting the center and walking the grounds. From my perspective, there was absolutely no cover, just grassy land with rolling hills. There were white crosses here and there, some single, some in clusters. It wasn’t long before I came across a ravine and in studying it could easily imagine the Indians riding on horses to be well covered from sight, it was deep enough. I also, imagined if I was a soldier looking for cover, run immediately to that ravine, but be over run and killed by the Indians on horseback.
Being alone, the only sound was the wind blowing. My imagination was running wild and made me want to leave.
Was the area searched after the fire that moved through years back which revealed an extreme amount of things left from the battle? Just curious as this has always been so fascinating to me. Thanks and I truly enjoyed this video. 👍
Dr Fox of University of South Dakota was a lead manager of the project. He's written several good books on their findings and evidence.
Fascinating video regarding the outcome of E Troop in the deep ravine. Not being a geologist or forensic scientist i defer to those who live in the area and have valid thoughts on the effects of 150 yrs of rain on the remains in the ravine. However, the multiple Lakota sources who claim to have seen troopers bodies in the ravine can’t be ignored. Neither can the officer assigned to the burial detail who knew some of the troopers personally. The bodies were there.
They are buried deeper and maybe in a different portion of Deep Ravine than previously thought. But too many eye witness accounts from Indian and Army cannot be disputed. More research is necessary to find them.
ola, compadre. I see we share interests.
@@wynnanderson2630 Yes amigo! I just found this channel and enjoy how he presents the history. I'll be watching more. And hunting more history myself!
My mate and I went there in May 2022, it was very moving and atmospheric. An ambition of mine since the 60s when as a boy I watched They Died With Their Boots On and Custer Of The West. Of course at that time I was rooting for Custer, not now though.
Great video...really interesting & very enjoyable.... Thank you!
Very interesting watch.
I also identified more with my company. 2bn 3rd Marines was a highly decorated outfit, but my company, Foxtrot, was the best of the best.
Excellent commentary, levelheaded account of brave soldiers and brave indians. Thank you for retelling important events in our history.🙏
Maybe the wrong ravine. Minchno speculates that the ravine may have been the one he named "Cemetery Ravine" which is not as far down the slope as Deep Ravine, and a bit more to the west. I'll have to pull it out and re-read his argument. Great stuff!
Impressive, detailed, nuanced presentation. My personal opinion is people must of fell there, ignore the eyewitnesses: it's an impressive terrain feature and would immediately have been seen for it's use militarily. Either incompetence or mutilation must be the causes considered for why this was not plotted on the map. Looking at the terrain from a psychological and human nature perspective, the ravine may have given rise to greater mutilation, given the hidden nature and after a humiliating defeat: gov at time did not want this info leaking out. That's my initial hunch.
Waterloo student here. I would consider myself extremely lucky If I had that many eyewitness accounts in agreement of 20-30 bodies in a specific location (from both sides) and would consider it essentially a fact. My best guess is they were moved out of the ravine so they wouldn't be washed away and buried near their comrades along what is called here the skirmish line.
I’ve been to the Custer Battlefield 3x. None of the witnesses had any reason to lie? I’m sure those men are there as their bodies were far too bloated and blackened to move. They were buried where they fell and the ravine walls washed in on them. Future excavations should start at the river and work their way up looking for boot nails, buttons, etc.
There is a way to tell: cadaver dogs. I was a cadaver dog handler for 22 years, and their talents are legendary. After I retired a friend with an excellent dog was part of a team called in by the NPS to an 1812 battlefield outside of Baltimore because the 100th anniversary was at hand and they expected lots of visitors from England visiting the Graves of relatives. There is a monument, but it was thought that the British cemetery was some distance from the monument. The dogs were able to determine that the remains were not at the graveyard, but actually directly under the monument!
What is that photo with the line of soldiers kneeling and aiming / shooting muskets with the fog / smoke to the left? It's amazing. Thanks.
That’s from one of the Little Bighorn anniversary events, where army soldiers would demonstrate actions for the audience. Glad you liked it
If they were killed in the ravine then there has to be spent bullets and cartridges there, a metal detectorist could easily confirm it.
Regardless if they where killed or not, everyone agrees there was fighting in the ravine, but to date nothing has ever been found indicating anything had ever happened.
Most that ran to Deep Ravine were out of ammo, extra ammo in saddlebags lost when horses held by horseholders stampeded. The flight to the ravine was to avoid being shot down/captured. In ravine. Troopers were out of Indian line of sight/line of fire. And like a rabbit under cover "out of sight is surely out of mind". As events proved, this choice was no safer because Deep Ravine was a blind draw with no way out (except way they came), and they were not out of Indians' minds, because Indians came to the crests of the ravine & shot them like "fish in a barrel".
I remember there was a fire on the site and they were able to gain easy access too look for and map all the shell cartridges. This was a brilliant method to separate the stories from hard facts. They even could identify the rifle the cartridge came from by the way the firing pin hit and marked the cartridge. Only factor that was a problem was determining when rifles had been taken and used by the indians fighting the battle.
Archaeology, History and Custer's Last Battle by Richard Allan Fox. Picked it up at the Fort Phil Kearney site and found it a pretty comprehensive study of the forensic evidence uncovered by that fire in 1983. Once I read it my following visits to LBH made everything I saw there make perfect sense.
I've always believed the bodies were buried deeper. A heavy rain might wash them out but a summer of light to moderate rains would just move more dirt & debris into the ravine.
Their remains are still in deep ravine. They're just buried deeper at this point. That ravine is a much more active area than the upper areas of the battlefield. In the 50 years I've been going there the steeper inclines have noticeably changed and sluffed downwards.
If they are there, let them be, where they fell.
The burial detail reports they buried the men in deep ravine by breaking loose dirt from the sides so it fell and covered the bodies. The difficulty of getting into the ravine and the unspeakable foulness of decomposition IMO accounts for the lack of markers and explains why the troopers buried there were forgotten by subsequent disinterment and reburial details.
When I visited the battlefield it was amazing but I had no faith whatsoever that any markers that I saw actually indicated anything with any precision as to who fell or was buried where. The confusion started with the fog of war on that day and has continued ever since to a certain extent.
As the story goes, the soldiers were ordered to bury the dead on the 28th. They had few tools to do so and scooped out the ground next to the body and rolled it over and into the shallow grave. The stench was terrible and there was much vomiting. The soldiers hated the job and accomplished their tasks as soon as possible and moved on. It is written that they came to the deep ravine and not wanting to jump down into it, shoved dirt from its rim into and covering the dead. Not a fun day. And now the years go by. What remains? Not much.
Has any of you felt a presence when your there. My sister said she felt the sadness or gloom when she visited. Im going to have to go there again by myself and just listen.
I'm a believer in that spirits that are not at peace try to remain where they died. 150 yrs later . Im not so sure they d be still wandering.
Just curious if anyone else got feelings of someone being there.
I have been there many times (over 20) and I di not see soldiers running into Deep Ravine for that was one of the major travel paths for the warriors, why would you run into the place they are emerging from? There were also plenty of remain bits found along the marker sites in the South Skirmish Line, I do not think the escapees from LSH made it as far as Deep Ravine
They should do some core samples. It won’t disrupt the topography, but would be able to find artifacts.
I'd take some echo sounding equipment out there and try to get some imaging deep underground.
Terrain shifts over time so it's very possible they are buried deeper than usual
Thats holy ground…The study after the big burn in the 80’s took a year to get approval….You dont just go wandering around w equipment…Same reason they didnt disturb the hull of PT 109 when they found it….Its a war grave…Let them rest…if you want adventure go South around the edge of the Big Horns to the March Route and look for the gold and the bag pipes buried somewhere out there
@@forrestmosby7118 Take it easy there Mr. ethics ranger. Maybe finding something would bring some closure to the families. Get approval then go look. Besides you're not digging anything with sonar anyways and the park lets people walk all over the battlefield so I'd say that "holy ground" has been thoroughly trampled already.
Try going to Dakota war battlefields in Minnesota. Many of the sites would've never been discovered had it not been for people digging around.
Closure to families from 1876?…K….There probably are a few older ladies waiting for hubs to ride back into Ft Lincoln…I was there 2 yrs after the burn but before Nat Geo released its article and they did find a body then….I guess us old 7th Cav vets should let it go….shoot..whats a memorial these days anyway?… prob find a couple wokesters that would love to remove the big monument at Last Stand Hill…only a couple 100 troopers buried under there…just bones….Yankees took Bobbys Arlington and filled it w dead…lets metal detect there too…Plenty of old buttons and crap laying around there and its not even a battlefield…topple a few statues while they are at it…Glad you pointed me in the right direction..👍
@@forrestmosby7118 Make sure not to drive anywhere anymore since you might drive over a spot where somebody died in a car accident. It's hallowed ground you know...
Look whacko if it wasn't for people digging around we wouldn't know anything about what happened with any battle. Go outside and see the sunlight before you have an aneurysm.
@@sgtstedanko7186 as Sister Mary Elephant said: Thank You…::name calling is the last resort of the incompetent when their arguments wont hold water….
Let the digging begin👍
The book on the 1985 survey of the battlefield reported that backhoe were used to trench the ravine. The video is correct that no bodies were found. However, the backhoes dug to their limits of safety. What was found was garbage and erosion control that was dated to the 1930s. This suggested that any remains are deeply buried past the limits of the equipment.
Multiple testamony about bodies in the Deep Ravine would seem to confirm that up to 30 soldiers died there regardless of what some digging around revealed. It's a ravine because it would channel water, whether a little or a lot. Its there for a reason. I understand the river itself has changed channels so whether digging around in the river would hold any answers is questionable. But several testamonies all seemingly confirming each other would seem to carry the most weight.
What an awesome place to visit. On a cross country doggie trip we took a detour and ended up there by accident.
Burial party. Lower ranking enlisted. Decomposing bodies in a deep ravine. I would say either dirt from the top or not dealt with. If they were in there. I thought I read once that a few were found in a “draw” at the bottom of a slope. That could be the gentler one you showed.
As you said in the video, the horses were run off leaving the troopers afoot. It was actually a suicide charge by young teenager Indian boys looking to make a name for themselves that did it. It sealed the 7th's fate.
Please make more videos! Just discovered your channel!
Not a geologist but my theory is theyre most likely still there..land changes over time whether by nature or by humans..someone pointed out that perhaps some of the ravine was purposely collapsed to bury the bodies as an quicker method to intern the remains..accounts can also differ from person to person of the same time frame oddly enough.
The Cheyenne camp was located nearest Deep Ravine. Also at Medicine Tail Coulee, the river crossing was not a viable crossing at the time. Warriors reported to Crazy Horse while at the Reno fight, that women and children 'had been captured' on the opposite end of valley gathering and he turned around and headed to engage Custer's forces.
The remains are still in Deep Ravine, just buried deeper due to erosion and run-off. I was a forested for 9 years working in mountain regions. It is amazing how much earth can get washed away. Obviously, over time the remains got washed into the bottom and covered with eroded earth.
They're there. Just buried deeper at the bottom of the ravine.
The story never gets old. If you're looking for reading material, I can recommend _A Terrible Glory_ by James Donovan
I've got it, probably one of the best books I've ever read on the fight. Covers the inquiry in Chicago as well.
Why isn’t it likely they were pulled out of the Ravine in the days after the battle? An Officer was detailed with EXACTLY that task?
Dig the format you tell your tales with...More content Please!
🏴Id just like to say “companies” were carryovers from a time before America was called America....It was a European thing , England especially, just groups of mercenaries headed by some Aristocrat that went his own way and needed a team...Kinda like land pirates....When you mentioned the companies had their own brand colors identities I remembered this from my European studies....Read up on English badass John Talbot, had a dog on his flag, did lots of work in Italy made lots of $$$....
I lean towards the indians recollections why would they lie ,probably predudice that they couldn't be right
Awesome video! Very informative, looking forward to seeing more of your videos!
After the past 146 years, there won't be much deep the dirt remaining from the battle.
I have been to the Little Big Horn, I have seen the terrain, and my guess is there are many troops, Sioux, and allied tribals who were never recovered. There would have had to have been a thousand men on that field, walking shoulder to shoulder, covering every acre of ground for probably a section of land. There were not that many sent to do a thorough search for all the dead. My guess is that the Sioux and allies recovered their dead or almost all of them. US troops probably
Recovered the easily recovered and left the rest chalked up to MIA.
A curiosity question: Would cadaver detection canines be able to identify anything if they worked the area?
I would think no one would bury a body in a ravine regardless of condition. They would at least drag them to the top of the ravine so the grave would not wash out in the future. How many bodies are missing from the battle?