Hi guys, would you Plz allow me to post my 2nd "Modern Meat Target" th-cam.com/video/Z9IfVCdTipc/w-d-xo.html +P vs +P+ Is Plus P Velocity More Effective?
Everyone has a favorite caliber. But tests and numbers don’t lie. The .38 Super has an edge on 9mm, the .357 SIG has an edge on .38 Super. What really matters in the defensive world is accuracy. We enjoy these comparisons, and I’m all for carrying as much gun as you can manage. But carry what works for you.
@@Nerotique it is. And we have great bullets today. Back in the 70’s, when I started carrying, if you wanted something more effective you went to something bigger. Now we have great options in most major calibers.👍
.357 Sig wins every time with the higher velocity with every test I’ve tried. And I love that the xtreme defender really doesn’t care about most barriers.
The people who say the extra velocity of the 357Sig isn’t needed are the same people who say they won’t carry 380ACP because it’s too weak. Cracks me up! Excellent, thanks!
I miss my old .38 Special +P+Uranium t-shirt, from back when the ACLU was bitching about police use of hollow-points. "Support the use of low yield nuclear devices by local law enforcement."
Thanks for your video. Underwood Ammo is some of the best ammo out there. The velocities are pretty close to what they publish as well. For its size the 9mm is a very efficient cartridge perhaps thats why its been around for more than 100 years.
The .357 SIG has some drawbacks, but performance isn't one of them. The folks that don't think there's a difference between the 357 and the 9mm are the same folks that think the 10mm is just-as-powerful as the .44 mag. In some cherry-picked situations, this is true, but these are exceptions.
Great videos Sam There's two things that happen to a person when they graduate from 9 mm to 357 Sig 1. They lose their " Man Hair Bun " 2. They do not have to call the 357 Sig " Daddy " anymore
I never understood the bun, at all. Steven Segal style or even a mullet is, I guess fine, but the bun thing is progressing into something different. It's weird is all I will say lol
My handloads of 357 sig 90 grain XTP bullets with CFE pistol is averaging 1685 fps out of Glock 31. Straight wall cartridges like the 9x19 is no match for bottleneck cartridges, +P+ is for suckers only.
Great video brother. I hate 9mm I think its a compromise round. The .357 sig and the .40 S&W are just better rounds. If you have to go to +P or +P+ to do the same thing why wouldn't you just go with the better round to begin with.
Because 9mm is cheaper to shoot, is a great self defense round, fits more rounds in the same size gun....and you can get a 9mm platform in a smaller more shootable firearm than either a .40 or .357sig. However; My favorite pistol is my duty sized XDM .40....love that gun.
Been torn between my next carry pistol being a 357 Sig or a 30 super carry. Enjoyed the video. Good stuff. Always love these shoot offs between the different calibers. Educational and Entertaining. Still torn...lol. The wound channel on that 357 Sig is phenomenal but 17+1 on that 30 super carry...probably gonna have to get one of each.
@@nikos6220 Im gonna have to look into this more. Haven't heard much on them being converted to that caliber and sounds very intriguing. Two of you have already suggested that route so it seems reliable. That's my only main concern. I do like Glock. I'm a bit of an M&P fanboy but I don't have a die hard preference. I will definitely be checking this out.
This is the first review where someone used the same barrel length in both guns to compare with!! Thanks for doing it right! I bought my first 357 glock back in the 90s and love it!
Underwood has certainly put a lot of development into both loadings. I’m curious about a head to head between the 9mm 9BPLE or Winchester 127 against a 125 grain Gold Dot in .357 Sig. Those loadings had been around for quite a while.
9BPLE is the round that made the 9mm not suck. I conversed with a LEO who used it on the job. His comments convinced me to buy a case of which I still have several boxes. I cherish that stuff and frankly, have no qualms about using it as my carry round today.
@@robpelick7460 It was my first 9mm issued duty load in 1991. Ballisticslly similar to the Federal 110 grain .357 that was the issues round for revolvers where I worked. I don’t carry it anymore but it was a great performer in its time. Personally think the 124 grain a+P Gold Dots or HSTs are just as good as they benefit from technological development. The Gold Dot +P is running close to the same velocities as Hydra Shok 124 grain +P from the early 90s which was also a duty load. But the 9BPLE is certainly not obsolete.
I carry a Glock 35 converted to 357sig with a 6" barrel. It gets 2275fps with the 65 grain Leighi Defense from Underwood. I put this gun together and then later chronoed a Glock 32 and it still got 2200 fps. I would love to see you compare 9mm to 357sig in the lighter weight bullets.
@@rxmarlo2303 Yes it would which is why I put the pistol together. I have had 2 incidents where I shot terrorist in the exact same way one was with my 9mm pistol and the other 10.5 inch Colt Commando. The rifle did a lot more damage. Friends have take this 357sig round and shot hogs with it and it delivered rifle like performance
Oh dude. I just commented and apparently did nearly the same thing with a Glock 35 with a 5.84" barrel. I have some but haven't loaded up the 65gr Defenders yet.
Maybe, but if one is talking self defense and the person shooting is barely competent (As both these are easy for anyone to shoot well), less rounds are needed. Both 16 and 18 rounds respectively should be double to triple than what is needed typically.
357 Sig out of a 4 inch barrel (Glock 32) is probably the best self defense personal protection package you can carry. The ballistics are just insane, and it’s easily concealable with a decent round count.
I have had people in the pistol & rifle club I belong to try and tell me the close to the same thing... That "standard" 9 mm is "just as effective" as 357 sig. I saw a video sometime ago a comparison between 124 grain 9 mm and 125 grain 357 sig through a chronograph and ballistic gel. The nine-millimeter didn't even come close in velocity or effectiveness on the ballistic gel compared to the 357 sig... But there's people still say 9 mm is just as good as 357 sig. I don't even argue back with them
The people at your club are probably talking about stopping power. I found a study comparing real world gun fighting situations that calculated the number of shots to stop an attacker. The study found no statistical difference between the major handgun calibers .380, .38 special, 9mm, .40, .45. There was a slight increase in stopping power with .357 magnum, but it wasn't much.
Man, that 357 Sig is powerful. I think i’d be ok using that round for black bear defense. The 9mm+p+ isn’t any kind of slouch either. How was the recoil on those? I saw a slight difference on the 357 but it didn’t look from here like it was too crazy. As a side note it’s cool that you can get good test subject matter even just by disproving an incorrect statement on the internet. That’s why your channel is one of the best. You rely on real world experiments instead of just assertions without evidence.
Have the ninety grain+p+, I've been carrying that bullet for about 5 years now but I think now that I can manage recoil would prefer the 357 sig at this point
Yes, Sir💙💙💙 I have M&P in 357. I bought it used for $400, only had the small bold spot on grep and the front point paint was broken, I fixed the bold with a sharp knife and I painted the dot hole. It's so accurate, I have some clips
Another great presentation. Thank you. As you've just demonstrated here, .357 SIG is clearly more powerful than 9mm +P+, and IMHO, better overall. I do carry 9mm +P+, specifically Underwood Ammo's 124 Gr (SGD) Bonded JHP +P+ in my 4" compact double-stack pistol when I go road bike riding. For most other things, however, I'm now carrying 10mm Auto in a 4.6" full size double-stack platform, all Underwood Ammo: - 165 Gr (SGD) Bonded JHP for warm weather personal self-defense / home-defense - 180 (Hornady) XTP JHP for cold / winter weather personal self-defense / home-defense And for wilderness trail biking / hiking / camping large critter personal self-defense, all Underwood Ammo 10mm Auto: - 200 Gr FN Hardcast (19+1 rounds, primary) - 140 Gr Xtreme Penetrator (16+1 rounds, secondary) - 200 Gr XTP JHP (16+1 rounds, tertiary) Good things! 👍
Super great video.. we had start switching our .40sw barrels to .357sig before I retired.. it was an attention getter… that .357sig is serious business.. the ammo is just too expensive.. you also get the nail on the head about passing through someone kill them… not gonna happen… even with JFK!! it’s just funny how the round’s changed throughout the years to accommodate the suits and recruits.. super Great video
Ideally, mine would be better. If you have ever seen the original Universal Soldier, Dolph Lundgren throws a grenade and then yells in a full arm swing...that would be a better way to show my excitement of JUST AS GOOD! th-cam.com/video/wpsAi4X2bWw/w-d-xo.html
Sheesh. These are screening. I build a Glock 35 in 357 Sig with a 5.84" barrel. Normally I handload 147gr XTP's for it but I picked up some 65gr Xtreme Defender bullets to load up. Quite curious at to how far north of 2K fps they will go. Purely just because I want to know. Haven't tried them yet though.
Have you ever done a back to back between the .357 SIG xtreme defender vs the 115 or 100 grain .40 S&W? I’m curious because while the .40 gives up muzzle velocity, at a constant sectional density, it gains tangential rotational velocity because it’s got the larger diameter… They fluid dynamics bullets add this new dimension where diameter and rotational velocity can effect stretch cavity
People that are convinced that the 9mm is the only caliber worth having have never studied ballistics a day in their lives. As a cartridge nerd for over 50 years, I can tell you that the 9mm isn't that good of a round. That's why the very first thing that 9mm fanatics say is capacity. In reality one round of 357 Sig has a far better chance of stopping a threat than three rounds of the hottest 9mm loads available. The Sig is the semi auto version of the 357 mag and nobody that has even bothered to look at the FBI one shot stop stats can honestly say that the 9mm is even close to the 357 mag in terminal performance. They're just going by what they've heard or seen on TH-cam channels that are solely committed to making 9mm videos. I've shot most of the calibers made over the past 50 years and can tell you from personal experience that the 9×19 is just not that good. It's basically a +P version of the 9×18 Makarov and I've never heard anyone claim that the Mak is a great round. Before someone blindly believes that any caliber is the best, do the research yourself and you might be surprised by what you find.
Yes. And it's one of those things math cannot explain to people. Frankly I have no way of explaining it myself, that how can the best 9mm round at maybe 1,300 FPS not be that effective, yet 200 FPS more like .357 Sig/Mag, becomes a fight stopper? I can never answer people with that other than, that's just the sweet spot for adding more, and the proof is out there that this 200 FPS more takes it from 9mm's 5-10 shots to stop a threat, down to 1-2 shots to stop a threat. Some things you don't have to understand to take advantage of and benefit from.
Around December of 2019, I noticed a change in the design of the extream defender bullets. The new production seemed to be extruded as the older bullets seemed milled. Perhaps your. 357 sig rounds are old production
Nice test Sam. Just remember people are compensating 9mm with pluses instead of upgrading their weapon or ammo, and believing internet nonsense. ♠️🎩🎯🇺🇸🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻🌸💮🌼🏴☠️🏹
You have options. The 10mm cartridge is more effective against bears than .357 Sig, that being said a .40 S&W pistol with .357 Sig barrel still allows you to use .40 S&W, and the hot .40 S&W hard cast ammo, is nearly as good in practice as hard cast 10mm ammo. It's all about bullet mass and shape, the 10mm and .40 S&W can use 180-220 gr flat nose hard cast ammo which penetrates deep, more so in .40 S&W than a typical .357 Sig bullet.
@@TackJorrance 327 Federal Magnum has unbelievable performance from longer barrels. You’ll be surprised when you see how close they are in performance.
@@TackJorrance 327 Federal Magnum can reach velocities above 1700 FPS from a 4 inch barrel. When the time comes I’m sure that 357 Sig will be a disappointing showcase and 327 Federal Magnum will completely outperform it.
Seems like about 1990 was the cutoff timeframe where no one wanted anything new. All throughout the 20th century everyone ate up all the new stuff like .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .454 Casull and everything else. The 10mm and .40 S&W barely got in, now after that no one cares. No one cares about .357 Sig, .327 Federal, .30 Super Carry and the other dozen or so new and good cartridges. Probably the fault of polymer high capacity 9mm pistols. Once they became a thing that was near 100% reliable, caliber debate went away. Now we live with 9mm fanboys comparing all their 9mm pistols that frankly look all the same to me. The good old days were more fun.
@@GunSam Sam: It's funny. The argument I hear from the 9mm fanboys is that under 600 ft/lbs, the efficacy isn't any different among the cartridges and we might as well get capacity with that in mind. One, if that's the case, the 30 super should be flying off the shelves. Two, I think that it's more than just energy level RE effectiveness. I tend to lean towards the momentum crowd. Yes, all the Mattel® pistols look the same, much like SUVs today and yes the good old days were more fun. There were times I had my Blackhawk in 45LC or 4" python and never felt bad about it. Then again I drive a Challenger RT Scat Pack 1320 daily, so there's that. Thanks for the response, I appreciate your work.
I get that a lot too, in the form of "all handgun rounds are the same and ineffective compared to a rifle". The real world still exists, and I have seen a ton of police body cam and older dash cam footage, and 9mm seems to do almost nothing to an attacker other than killing them 5 minutes after they were shot and taking that long to make them stop fighting or running. All the while all the footage I have seen with .40 S&W and .357 Sig, is people falling over. Typically 1 shot of .357 Sig or two shots of .40 S&W. The real world footage of .357 Sig I have seen mirrors the stories I have heard about .357 Magnum. I do not know why a 124 gr bullet at 1,250 FPS seems so ineffective yet that same bullet weight at 1,500 FPS is super effective, makes no sense....but the footage doesn't lie. My only guess is that in my ballistic testing, a lot of .357 Sig ammo of that weight tends to explode and fragment, but at 1,200 FPS that rarely happens.
First off, I like Underwood a lot. Couple of questions, 1: Is that Xtreme "Defense" or "Penetrator"? 2: What kind of difference would the added velocity of the 68 gr (1800 fps) make in penetration? Also I realize many guns accept +P, no problem. I'm wondering how many are rated for +P+?
Nice portrayal of Paul Harrel. But as a cheap skate, you can't beat 9mm for the price of the ammo. If 380 was cheaper than 9 mm I'd be shooting that all day long. In the end it comes down to "What are you willing to pay for". Wish 10 mm was the cheapest to shoot as it really does have considerable more power (and recoil), and so is more fun to shoot for me!
The only drawback to 357sig is 1 or 2 less rounds will fit in a standard magazine compared to 9mm but would you carry 25acp over 9mm because you can carry more rounds
I have seen a few videos with cops shooting bad dudes with .357 Sig and .40 S&W. The .357 Sig is usually a one shot instant stop, the .40 S&W is about the same except it's usually two shots. Then - I have seen dozens of videos of cops shooting bad dudes with 9mm....and it's nearly always something like, the 12th or 13th round going in them and then they start to fall over. To me that says a lot. In the 'real world' I would say, in effect the .357 Sig and .40 S&W have more useable capacity. A 15 shot .357 Sig in the right hands could drop like 10 dudes - accounting for misses, adrenalin etc. The 9mm could probably drop like two due to how ineffective it seems to be. The ballistic one shot stop charts shows 9mm as good as everything else basically, but the footage I have seen would dispute those numbers.
There is no such thing as over penetration , as you go up in bullet weight 9mm cases cannot hold enough powder to keep up with .357 Sig. I shoot 9mm Major or " Major Power Factor " at matches . I have driven 9mm 124 gr hp's to 1,425 fps to compete in that foot ponds energy class with Bryan Enos load data " and this is common " . I have been reloading over 45 years , back in the day .357 magnum was king . Why you ask ? Because back in the day police ballistics on shootings of all calibers were available and everyone wanted the caliber with the highest percentage of One Shot Stops . For Forty Years the King of One Shot Stops was a .357 magnum round with a 125 gr. bullet velocity 1,500 fps ! It was devastating on the human body. Well .357 Sig duplicates these exact ballistics with twice the capacity of a revolver, and that is why I owe several .357 Sig pistols.
YMMV but for myself i want the greatest amount of rapid, controllable energy on target. My underwood xtreme defender 65 grain .357 sig's are pushing over 2000 fps and 636 fpe out of my glock 32, with the recoil impulse of a 124 grain 9mm. Even Federal plinking ammo pushes past 1300 fps and 500 fpe in most cases. I honestly love 9mm as well, but it's not the ultimate do-all defensive caliber it keeps being forced to be with all its additional +'s and p's.
I don't recall anyone ever saying 9mm +P+ is "just as powerful" as .357 SIG but more or less I've heard criticism of how anemic most available .357 SIG ammo is. Most manufacturers download the .357 SIG well below original design spec. Some have said that this anemic ammo is "not much better than 9mm +P+" Oh well. This is why I stick with UNDERWOOD for my .357 SIG loads. (10mm too!)
Bullet choice is critical at higher velocities. 357 SIG bullets need to be closer in construction to 357 mag bullets. 9mm jhp bullets at 357 velocities turn into pancakes and penetrate similarly.
The 9mm hitting the steel is just embarrassing. It’s barely scratching the paint. I don’t understand why the guntubers push it so much. I’ll stick with my 40sw and 10mm.
One observation. Look at the slow mo of the bullet impacts. The 357 sig has considerably more “temporary wound cavity”. This is a critical part of a bullets true stopping power. That temporary stretch is what shocks vital organs. A vital organ that is not directly impacted by the bullet can be “shut down” by the temporary wound cavity. I agree, significant difference between the two calibers!
Historically , there was a grain of truth to the " 9mm +P+ = .357 Sig . ( Clue - Today's .357 Sig has more velocity than 1st gen loads ) . Back when .357 Sig was new , typical real world was 125 gr @ +\- 1250 fps ( multiple piblished chrono tests ) . In the same era , CorBon 115gr @ 1337 fps ( my chrono from G17 , but also multiple published chrono tests similar ) . Both had excellent terminal performance , both of them overlapping full power .357 Mag 125gr from 2.5 inch revolver .
I recall reading that the .357 Sig was supposed to go 1,350 FPS from a 4" semi auto, which equaled a .357 Mag from a 3" barrel, or in a 5" semi auto the .357 Sig matched the 4" .357 Mag loads. My guess is the hotter ammo was the advertised, but the low end is what was used and shot to 'fool' agencies into adopting it as 9mm recoil, .357 Mag power.
Sometimes it's only an availability issue. We can always get 9mm in just about all flavors pretty much anywhere in the country. I don't dispute their effectiveness in any way but .38 Super and .357 Sig aren't always on the shelf locally and sometimes even when they are it's only the cheap and shitty loads left on the shelf. I have that problem with some of my old rifles, can't always get preferred loads for them.
The .357 Sig is a bit like, .32 S&W Long in that they are often not on local store shelves, but they can always be found online as both are pretty common and popular, just not common and popular in all parts of the country.
There is a similar group of people who claim the 10mm is as powerful as the .41 magnum. I know…right? Wanting to believe, is one thing, but refusing to believe is ridiculous.
I mostly hear people saying the 10mm is more powerful than the .44 Mag. When I address this as wrong, they then start talking available ft lbs that add up, 15 rounds of 10mm is 11,000 ft lbs of energy, 6 of .44 Mag is 5,000 ft lbs energy etc. I tell them, that's not how it works - because their example is like saying 15 bb gun bb's is the same as a single shot of .22 LR....They stop responding.
For self defense....a bad guy wouldn't know the difference between the two. There's a reason everybody carries a 9....more rounds, less recoil, cheaper to shoot, less report. Having said all that....the .357sig does kick ass!
Hi Sam, my wife and I just purchased a set of 9mm S&W FPC's with 16.25" barrels. Do you have any idea of what the FPS would be with this ammo? Thank you for another great video!
another myth misunderstood by the gun communty is pain, books written about pain show that just because the wound is bigger it doesnt mean it hurts more because it depends on the nerves and also you got delayed pain that you dont feel sometimes when your in shock so a little more damage doesnt equate always to more pain like on a 1 - 10 chart because it depends on many factors, this is why guys can soak up anything unless blood pressure gets dropped or head shot, spine and such, damage certainly will stop someone but if that shot is in the right place. if you blow out the heart with a 9 mm or 357 sig i dont think there is much of a difference to mean much when a round with 10 - 20% less energy yields almost the same results, a 60 caliber hole in the heart or 70 caliber is still a big hole gushing out and like i said a non vital area it doesnt mean 10 - 20% more energy hurts more wich is a myth people used to equate more damage with more pain wich isnt always true due to many factors, you actually surviving being shot by a smaller caliber will feel more pain if nerve ending can still send messages to the brain where as a larger caliber may sever nerves giving it a numb feeling or a delayed pain that comes later when you get treated, its the same concept of breaking a leg and not feeling it at first and then stub picky toe on door and jump up and own right away feeling more pain immediately from smaller wound, so people think for example if you get hit in a non lethal area with a 9 mm and a 45 then the 45 you will feel more pain, not necessarily and we know guys perfectly sober and not on drugs can soak up a dozen 45 acp rounds if shot placement isnt correct like the cop in ohio massad ayoob interviewed who finally after all his duty issue 45 acp mags of his Glock 21 45 hit the perp with his last shots in heart and head wich is proof its all about shot placement since pain doesnt kick in even with a wide wound channel or the will of that person can ignore pain better, even a adrenaline dump in the body can offset pain
People need to be more concerned about hitting their target than over penetration. I challenge anyone to annotate one civilian shooting where over penetration injured an innocent bystander. I’m glad you touched on how clear gel is not the same as 10% the FBI uses all compared to human tissue. As gel tests become the norm, it’s important for people not to get use to such tests and start correlating the results as results one may expect on the streets.
@@GunSamand they are much more likely to be in confined areas w non-threat targets. Even taking LE in to consideration, how many over penetration reports are there where someone was inadvertently injured? I was a LEO for over ten years and haven’t heard of any - not that that means anything, lol. I’m sure the results would be so low that over penetration is almost a moot point… except for Air Marshals etc.
"Why would you buy 357 sig when you can buy bubba's pissing hot ammo?" Actually it comes down to practicality, if you're into 10mm then you might only have 357 sig as an option for a specific pistol due to frame size, some of those pistols are just a matter of swapping a 40 S&W barrel.
The 357 Sig was envisioned as a cartridge for pistols that approximates the power of the 125 gr 357 magnum, which it certainly does. Unfortunately the ammo is so expensive that it has not become a commercially viable round. Pushing a 9mm to attempt to attempt to duplicate the performance of the Sig will undoubtedly result in premature wear on the 9mm. Accept the 9mm as the preeminent defensive round which performs well with today's ammo. If you need more, then buy a 357 or the Sig.
actual terminal ballistic differences, as in wounding and mythical "stopping power" between handgun rounds is negligible. Carry whatever load that YOU shoot BEST. It's really that simple. Getting into these extra powder handgun (yes I said powder not power) does NOT ensure that you are carrying a magic "death-ray".
It’s just a matter of everyone has already bought a 9 mm and think it’s the best so whatever the results are you’re not going to convince them otherwise. Plus the ammo was cheaper and more abundant
Yes, exactly. Said guy buys a Taurus G2C (decent pistol not knocking it) and a box of target ammo, then researches what he bought and finds evidence he made the best choice, then starts getting into grey areas- urban legend type nonsense that it's just as powerful as .357 Magnum and the like. You can find exactly what you want to hear if you look long enough for it. They say Bigfoot chasers always find evidence of it's existence, because they were looking for what they thought correct evidence was.
The difference is you can get 500 ft lbs from a plus p 9mm in a duty length gun, you can hit 700 with 357 Sig.Both those numbers would be light for caliber bullets in max loads.
147 gr is where .357 Sig can shine. With 147 gr 9mm, I typically see 300 ft lbs. With 147 +P+ I can see about 430 ft lbs energy. In .357 Sig 147 gr I see 540 ft lbs energy.
@@GunSam the only factory 357 I have seen in 147 is kinda weak like the Hornady not too bad, I think Underwood could load one at 1300 plus would be ok by me 1300 is the number.
@@GunSam never seen those , I do have lots of Underwood in 65 and 90 extreme defenders and the ultra hot 124 Nosler sporting , Buffalo bore made a 125 tac xp copper I like but so many choices and most are devastating in 357 Sig.
Comes out to be close but you are spending more money on buying 9mm+p+ VS standard 357 sig or 40cal. And if your worried about over pen then a standard hp solves that.
What I like about .357 Sig, is it's a caliber that more people are using in a .40 S&W with conversion barrel like me, rather than just having a .357 Sig pistol. It's kind of like, when you buy a .40 S&W VS a .357 Sig pistol, it's comparable to a person buying a .357 Magnum revolver over a .38 Special revolver, in that Glock, M&P, Sig pistols and the like in .40 S&W can easily convert. My point is, one can shoot lower pressure .40 S&W as much as they want, shoot some .357 Sig too, as where in 9mm you're limited to one thing and barely able to do much in the way of variety.
@@GunSam like with the 9mm 40 deal. They said 40 was over stressing parts on the gun VS standard 9mm so that was a big reason for the switch but to get the numbers close to 40 they use 9mm+p and +p+ ammo which puts more pressure and stress on the gun than 40 which defeats the purpose.. on top of ammo cost being higher on the high end 9mm stuff VS standard 40... in my le days I used standard 40 ammo with the standard flat nose and flat nose hp and spent just as much or less on a box of 50 VS a box of 9mm in a 20 rd box.
people say random statements but i think what most mean by saying hot 9 mm is as powerful as 357 sig is when comparing it to a few watered down 357 sig wich may be out there but certainly if 9 mm can be made hotter so can 357 sig and no doubt a 9 mm case will never be able to do that of a 357 sig
I don't have either -- no intention of getting either --- as far as I can determine the 40S&W is a lot better than 9mm for defense ---- so a 40 it is -- EXCEPT it makes better sense to just get a 10MM you can load it with "watered-down" to 40 or go with full-power loads. That Underwood 135 grain 10mm is as fast as the sig's 90 grain OR the 100grain Xtreme Defender rated at 1825 fps -- that makes better sense to me. JUST SAYING!!!!!!
I agree that .40 S&W is better, it's my main home defense caliber as it's nearly the same effectiveness as .357 Sig/Mag, but more common, less snappy recoil and more bullet weight. Personally I wouldn't go with 10mm with light loads only because the well designed ammo like HST, Gold Dot etc in .40 S&W are perfect, if you go into 10mm in those you are getting really hot ammo that is more powerful and more recoil than really needed.
@@GunSam What you said is true -- but around here in the last few years "black-bear" attacks are on the rise here in the Smokies -- there are a LOT of black bears and we we have some real brusiers over 6 ft tall and probably 500+ pounds so a 10 MM does actually make more sense for me! We have 2 different BIG-BOYS that do visit our neighborhood 🤞no major problems so far, only birdfeeders destroyed.
Now days, yes if invented now maybe 9mm Magnum. But in 1994, cops were still transitioning from .357 Mag revolvers to semi autos, and none trusted any caliber other than their proven .357 Mag, so Sig named it .357 Sig to get the interest of law enforcement.
Hi guys, would you Plz allow me to post my 2nd "Modern Meat Target" th-cam.com/video/Z9IfVCdTipc/w-d-xo.html +P vs +P+ Is Plus P Velocity More Effective?
Everyone has a favorite caliber. But tests and numbers don’t lie. The .38 Super has an edge on 9mm, the .357 SIG has an edge on .38 Super. What really matters in the defensive world is accuracy. We enjoy these comparisons, and I’m all for carrying as much gun as you can manage. But carry what works for you.
Yep. The most effective caliber is the one you can shoot accurately.
Pretty much my thoughts on comparative power. Then there is the wear always running +p+.
Isn't it great that we have so many choices in ammo and calibers?
@@Nerotique it is. And we have great bullets today. Back in the 70’s, when I started carrying, if you wanted something more effective you went to something bigger. Now we have great options in most major calibers.👍
PROPER.
.357 Sig wins every time with the higher velocity with every test I’ve tried. And I love that the xtreme defender really doesn’t care about most barriers.
The people who say the extra velocity of the 357Sig isn’t needed are the same people who say they won’t carry 380ACP because it’s too weak. Cracks me up! Excellent, thanks!
No doubt about it , 200fps makes a difference . The .357sig is definitely , and significantly more powerful . Another great video , thanks Gun Sam !
Thanks
That's an ass load of extra power.
NO version of 9mm is or will ever be better than 357Sig. #TruthBeTold #FactsMatter
9mm major. Might wanna do a little research before making comments. #TruthBeTold #FootInYourMouth
👍🏼💪🏼🤘🏼😋
9x23mm Winchester is somewhat better, with higher capacity. Though obscure, it performs very well.
@@RosaParksWasWyt troll
@@LarryeWhite61 how am I a troll? Have you never heard of 9mm major? My point exactly. You need to do research before commenting
The running joke I have at my LGS is they just need one more + added to a 9mm to make it just as good as...pick something.
I miss my old .38 Special +P+Uranium t-shirt, from back when the ACLU was bitching about police use of hollow-points. "Support the use of low yield nuclear devices by local law enforcement."
they put the extra plus on the end just to make sure they are being inclusive.
No, so they could get an extra $5 per box.
These 9mm guys always just as good as every caliber but no other caliber whants to be as good as 9mm
Filmed 5-26-23
Thanks for your video. Underwood Ammo is some of the best ammo out there. The velocities are pretty close to what they publish as well. For its size the 9mm is a very efficient cartridge perhaps thats why its been around for more than 100 years.
Be sure to tell that to the Bear. 😂
The .357 SIG has some drawbacks, but performance isn't one of them. The folks that don't think there's a difference between the 357 and the 9mm are the same folks that think the 10mm is just-as-powerful as the .44 mag. In some cherry-picked situations, this is true, but these are exceptions.
Amen, my friend in arms!
No, they're the same people who touts the 10mm and call the 40 s&w the short and weak 😂
Other than price, what drawbacks?
I used to be that 10mm guy, then Roland called me
Great videos Sam
There's two things that happen to a person when they graduate from 9 mm to 357 Sig
1. They lose their " Man Hair Bun "
2. They do not have to call the 357 Sig " Daddy " anymore
I never understood the bun, at all. Steven Segal style or even a mullet is, I guess fine, but the bun thing is progressing into something different. It's weird is all I will say lol
357 sig is my preferred round. Shoots flat and fast. If there is a downside it is the muzzle flash. Good presentation. Cheers
And Blast
357 definitely sounded louder hitting the metal target to me.
My handloads of 357 sig 90 grain XTP bullets with CFE pistol is averaging 1685 fps out of Glock 31. Straight wall cartridges like the 9x19 is no match for bottleneck cartridges, +P+ is for suckers only.
🤘🏼👍🏼🤟🏽😋😝
Technically 9 is tapered case
Great video brother. I hate 9mm I think its a compromise round. The .357 sig and the .40 S&W are just better rounds. If you have to go to +P or +P+ to do the same thing why wouldn't you just go with the better round to begin with.
Because 9mm is cheaper to shoot, is a great self defense round, fits more rounds in the same size gun....and you can get a 9mm platform in a smaller more shootable firearm than either a .40 or .357sig. However; My favorite pistol is my duty sized XDM .40....love that gun.
I can always check back here for the best analytics and demonstrative testing. Thanks Sam!
Been torn between my next carry pistol being a 357 Sig or a 30 super carry. Enjoyed the video. Good stuff. Always love these shoot offs between the different calibers. Educational and Entertaining. Still torn...lol. The wound channel on that 357 Sig is phenomenal but 17+1 on that 30 super carry...probably gonna have to get one of each.
Buying one of each is always the best solution.
I have a Shield Plus 30 Super Carry and a Glock 22 I converted to 357 Sig. Yes just get both. 🤙
@@jamiemitchell9733 I like the idea of the conversion.
@@nikos6220 Im gonna have to look into this more. Haven't heard much on them being converted to that caliber and sounds very intriguing. Two of you have already suggested that route so it seems reliable. That's my only main concern. I do like Glock. I'm a bit of an M&P fanboy but I don't have a die hard preference. I will definitely be checking this out.
@@bobjones-bt9bh facts lol 😂.
This is the first review where someone used the same barrel length in both guns to compare with!! Thanks for doing it right! I bought my first 357 glock back in the 90s and love it!
Underwood has certainly put a lot of development into both loadings. I’m curious about a head to head between the 9mm 9BPLE or Winchester 127 against a 125 grain Gold Dot in .357 Sig. Those loadings had been around for quite a while.
9BPLE is the round that made the 9mm not suck. I conversed with a LEO who used it on the job. His comments convinced me to buy a case of which I still have several boxes. I cherish that stuff and frankly, have no qualms about using it as my carry round today.
@@robpelick7460 It was my first 9mm issued duty load in 1991. Ballisticslly similar to the Federal 110 grain .357 that was the issues round for revolvers where I worked. I don’t carry it anymore but it was a great performer in its time. Personally think the 124 grain a+P Gold Dots or HSTs are just as good as they benefit from technological development. The Gold Dot +P is running close to the same velocities as Hydra Shok 124 grain +P from the early 90s which was also a duty load. But the 9BPLE is certainly not obsolete.
Interesting. You can really see the power through the MDF.
I carry a Glock 35 converted to 357sig with a 6" barrel. It gets 2275fps with the 65 grain Leighi Defense from Underwood. I put this gun together and then later chronoed a Glock 32 and it still got 2200 fps. I would love to see you compare 9mm to 357sig in the lighter weight bullets.
I tested the 65 or 68 gr version of this, was getting like 2,200 FPS, 2,223 if I recall, something like that.
Wouldent this equal ar pistol ballistics? 2200 fps 65 grains🤔
@@rxmarlo2303 Yes it would which is why I put the pistol together. I have had 2 incidents where I shot terrorist in the exact same way one was with my 9mm pistol and the other 10.5 inch Colt Commando. The rifle did a lot more damage. Friends have take this 357sig round and shot hogs with it and it delivered rifle like performance
Oh dude. I just commented and apparently did nearly the same thing with a Glock 35 with a 5.84" barrel. I have some but haven't loaded up the 65gr Defenders yet.
Good test. I'm glad I'm not the only one putting .40 size cases in a 9mm mag.
Good stuff man!
9mm guys STILL wont believe...
I’ve been asking gun channels for a couple years for this very comparison. Thanks for showing. If there is a benefit for +p+ it would be mag capacity.
Maybe, but if one is talking self defense and the person shooting is barely competent (As both these are easy for anyone to shoot well), less rounds are needed. Both 16 and 18 rounds respectively should be double to triple than what is needed typically.
Great Test, I really enjoy your content !
357 Sig out of a 4 inch barrel (Glock 32) is probably the best self defense personal protection package you can carry. The ballistics are just insane, and it’s easily concealable with a decent round count.
Planning ahead helps when needing ammo in hard to find calibers
I have had people in the pistol & rifle club I belong to try and tell me the close to the same thing... That "standard" 9 mm is "just as effective" as 357 sig. I saw a video sometime ago a comparison between 124 grain 9 mm and 125 grain 357 sig through a chronograph and ballistic gel. The nine-millimeter didn't even come close in velocity or effectiveness on the ballistic gel compared to the 357 sig... But there's people still say 9 mm is just as good as 357 sig. I don't even argue back with them
The people at your club are probably talking about stopping power. I found a study comparing real world gun fighting situations that calculated the number of shots to stop an attacker. The study found no statistical difference between the major handgun calibers .380, .38 special, 9mm, .40, .45. There was a slight increase in stopping power with .357 magnum, but it wasn't much.
Man, that 357 Sig is powerful. I think i’d be ok using that round for black bear defense. The 9mm+p+ isn’t any kind of slouch either. How was the recoil on those? I saw a slight difference on the 357 but it didn’t look from here like it was too crazy. As a side note it’s cool that you can get good test subject matter even just by disproving an incorrect statement on the internet. That’s why your channel is one of the best. You rely on real world experiments instead of just assertions without evidence.
The 9mm+P+ felt about like, standard pressure target ammo, no joke. The .357 Sig felt about the same for recoil as target .40 S&W ammo.
@@TackJorrance I didn’t mean it’d be my first choice. Just commenting on how powerful it is.
Have the ninety grain+p+, I've been carrying that bullet for about 5 years now but I think now that I can manage recoil would prefer the 357 sig at this point
Yes, Sir💙💙💙
I have M&P in 357. I bought it used for $400, only had the small bold spot on grep and the front point paint was broken,
I fixed the bold with a sharp knife and I painted the dot hole.
It's so accurate, I have some clips
Great compare & contrast. Good data & demo. Thank you.
Another great presentation.
Thank you.
As you've just demonstrated here, .357 SIG is clearly more powerful than 9mm +P+, and IMHO, better overall.
I do carry 9mm +P+, specifically Underwood Ammo's 124 Gr (SGD) Bonded JHP +P+ in my 4" compact double-stack pistol when I go road bike riding.
For most other things, however, I'm now carrying 10mm Auto in a 4.6" full size double-stack platform, all Underwood Ammo:
- 165 Gr (SGD) Bonded JHP for warm weather personal self-defense / home-defense
- 180 (Hornady) XTP JHP for cold / winter weather personal self-defense / home-defense
And for wilderness trail biking / hiking / camping large critter personal self-defense, all Underwood Ammo 10mm Auto:
- 200 Gr FN Hardcast (19+1 rounds, primary)
- 140 Gr Xtreme Penetrator (16+1 rounds, secondary)
- 200 Gr XTP JHP (16+1 rounds, tertiary)
Good things! 👍
Super great video.. we had start switching our .40sw barrels to .357sig before I retired.. it was an attention getter… that .357sig is serious business.. the ammo is just too expensive.. you also get the nail on the head about passing through someone kill them… not gonna happen… even with JFK!! it’s just funny how the round’s changed throughout the years to accommodate the suits and recruits.. super Great video
Another excellent comparison by Gun Sam. Non biased and entertaining.
Thank you.
Thank you for your show and valuable info.
Just remember to swing your arm when you say "just as powerful."
Ideally, mine would be better. If you have ever seen the original Universal Soldier, Dolph Lundgren throws a grenade and then yells in a full arm swing...that would be a better way to show my excitement of JUST AS GOOD! th-cam.com/video/wpsAi4X2bWw/w-d-xo.html
Sheesh. These are screening. I build a Glock 35 in 357 Sig with a 5.84" barrel. Normally I handload 147gr XTP's for it but I picked up some 65gr Xtreme Defender bullets to load up. Quite curious at to how far north of 2K fps they will go. Purely just because I want to know. Haven't tried them yet though.
Love the Paul Kersey Shirt!
Have you ever done a back to back between the .357 SIG xtreme defender vs the 115 or 100 grain .40 S&W? I’m curious because while the .40 gives up muzzle velocity, at a constant sectional density, it gains tangential rotational velocity because it’s got the larger diameter… They fluid dynamics bullets add this new dimension where diameter and rotational velocity can effect stretch cavity
I bet that 9mm +P+ could take out a strawman
People that are convinced that the 9mm is the only caliber worth having have never studied ballistics a day in their lives. As a cartridge nerd for over 50 years, I can tell you that the 9mm isn't that good of a round. That's why the very first thing that 9mm fanatics say is capacity. In reality one round of 357 Sig has a far better chance of stopping a threat than three rounds of the hottest 9mm loads available. The Sig is the semi auto version of the 357 mag and nobody that has even bothered to look at the FBI one shot stop stats can honestly say that the 9mm is even close to the 357 mag in terminal performance. They're just going by what they've heard or seen on TH-cam channels that are solely committed to making 9mm videos. I've shot most of the calibers made over the past 50 years and can tell you from personal experience that the 9×19 is just not that good. It's basically a +P version of the 9×18 Makarov and I've never heard anyone claim that the Mak is a great round. Before someone blindly believes that any caliber is the best, do the research yourself and you might be surprised by what you find.
Yes. And it's one of those things math cannot explain to people. Frankly I have no way of explaining it myself, that how can the best 9mm round at maybe 1,300 FPS not be that effective, yet 200 FPS more like .357 Sig/Mag, becomes a fight stopper? I can never answer people with that other than, that's just the sweet spot for adding more, and the proof is out there that this 200 FPS more takes it from 9mm's 5-10 shots to stop a threat, down to 1-2 shots to stop a threat. Some things you don't have to understand to take advantage of and benefit from.
Around December of 2019, I noticed a change in the design of the extream defender bullets. The new production seemed to be extruded as the older bullets seemed milled. Perhaps your. 357 sig rounds are old production
Love the hoodie im thinking about getting those 9mm rounds for m11-a1 for my everyday carry
M11-a1 is a really good gun mine has E2 grips & a dpm recoil spring guide in leather lock holster
Thanks for a variety of tests/reviews/comparisons! For 357 Sig conversion of your M&P 40, what barrel manufacturer did you use?
Nice test Sam. Just remember people are compensating 9mm with pluses instead of upgrading their weapon or ammo, and believing internet nonsense. ♠️🎩🎯🇺🇸🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻🌸💮🌼🏴☠️🏹
Exactly
Still looking for bear country gun idk if i should go with the 357sig or 10mm
You have options. The 10mm cartridge is more effective against bears than .357 Sig, that being said a .40 S&W pistol with .357 Sig barrel still allows you to use .40 S&W, and the hot .40 S&W hard cast ammo, is nearly as good in practice as hard cast 10mm ammo. It's all about bullet mass and shape, the 10mm and .40 S&W can use 180-220 gr flat nose hard cast ammo which penetrates deep, more so in .40 S&W than a typical .357 Sig bullet.
@@bobjones-bt9bh my area is has black Bear and mountain lions
10mm with 220-grain hardcast. You need some mass vs just velocity on tough critters.
Thanks. Another good and informative video. Thanks for sharing and take care.
Thank you, take care.
Would be great to see 38 super comparison with 9mm and 357 sig. I know it's old school but so am I...
Please do a Comparison of 327 Fed Mag against 357 Sig !! Long Barrel 3 or 4 inch Tests for Both would be so cool !
@@TackJorrance 327 Federal Magnum has unbelievable performance from longer barrels. You’ll be surprised when you see how close they are in performance.
@@TackJorrance 327 Federal Magnum can reach velocities above 1700 FPS from a 4 inch barrel. When the time comes I’m sure that 357 Sig will be a disappointing showcase and 327 Federal Magnum will completely outperform it.
@@TackJorrance *lighter* and they also have a higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient
@@TackJorrance so pathetic that you’d volunteer to be shot with a 327 Federal Magnum?
The sig is more powerful all day every day. Probably the most underrated pistol cartridge.
Seems like about 1990 was the cutoff timeframe where no one wanted anything new. All throughout the 20th century everyone ate up all the new stuff like .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .454 Casull and everything else. The 10mm and .40 S&W barely got in, now after that no one cares. No one cares about .357 Sig, .327 Federal, .30 Super Carry and the other dozen or so new and good cartridges. Probably the fault of polymer high capacity 9mm pistols. Once they became a thing that was near 100% reliable, caliber debate went away. Now we live with 9mm fanboys comparing all their 9mm pistols that frankly look all the same to me. The good old days were more fun.
@@GunSam Sam: It's funny. The argument I hear from the 9mm fanboys is that under 600 ft/lbs, the efficacy isn't any different among the cartridges and we might as well get capacity with that in mind. One, if that's the case, the 30 super should be flying off the shelves. Two, I think that it's more than just energy level RE effectiveness. I tend to lean towards the momentum crowd. Yes, all the Mattel® pistols look the same, much like SUVs today and yes the good old days were more fun. There were times I had my Blackhawk in 45LC or 4" python and never felt bad about it. Then again I drive a Challenger RT Scat Pack 1320 daily, so there's that. Thanks for the response, I appreciate your work.
I get that a lot too, in the form of "all handgun rounds are the same and ineffective compared to a rifle". The real world still exists, and I have seen a ton of police body cam and older dash cam footage, and 9mm seems to do almost nothing to an attacker other than killing them 5 minutes after they were shot and taking that long to make them stop fighting or running. All the while all the footage I have seen with .40 S&W and .357 Sig, is people falling over. Typically 1 shot of .357 Sig or two shots of .40 S&W. The real world footage of .357 Sig I have seen mirrors the stories I have heard about .357 Magnum. I do not know why a 124 gr bullet at 1,250 FPS seems so ineffective yet that same bullet weight at 1,500 FPS is super effective, makes no sense....but the footage doesn't lie. My only guess is that in my ballistic testing, a lot of .357 Sig ammo of that weight tends to explode and fragment, but at 1,200 FPS that rarely happens.
First off, I like Underwood a lot.
Couple of questions,
1: Is that Xtreme "Defense" or "Penetrator"?
2: What kind of difference would the added velocity of the 68 gr (1800 fps) make in penetration?
Also I realize many guns accept +P, no problem.
I'm wondering how many are rated for +P+?
You should test the 357sig Liberty Civil Defense, these are my new favorite rounds by far
Nice portrayal of Paul Harrel. But as a cheap skate, you can't beat 9mm for the price of the ammo. If 380 was cheaper than 9 mm I'd be shooting that all day long. In the end it comes down to "What are you willing to pay for". Wish 10 mm was the cheapest to shoot as it really does have considerable more power (and recoil), and so is more fun to shoot for me!
I would like to see a .30 Super Carry Xtreme Defender from a 5" semi auto pistol.
Thanks, good video!
The only drawback to 357sig is 1 or 2 less rounds will fit in a standard magazine compared to 9mm but would you carry 25acp over 9mm because you can carry more rounds
I have seen a few videos with cops shooting bad dudes with .357 Sig and .40 S&W. The .357 Sig is usually a one shot instant stop, the .40 S&W is about the same except it's usually two shots. Then - I have seen dozens of videos of cops shooting bad dudes with 9mm....and it's nearly always something like, the 12th or 13th round going in them and then they start to fall over. To me that says a lot. In the 'real world' I would say, in effect the .357 Sig and .40 S&W have more useable capacity. A 15 shot .357 Sig in the right hands could drop like 10 dudes - accounting for misses, adrenalin etc. The 9mm could probably drop like two due to how ineffective it seems to be. The ballistic one shot stop charts shows 9mm as good as everything else basically, but the footage I have seen would dispute those numbers.
There is no such thing as over penetration , as you go up in bullet weight 9mm cases cannot hold enough powder to keep up with .357 Sig. I shoot 9mm Major or " Major Power Factor " at matches . I have driven 9mm 124 gr hp's to 1,425 fps to compete in that foot ponds energy class with Bryan Enos load data " and this is common " . I have been reloading over 45 years , back in the day .357 magnum was king . Why you ask ? Because back in the day police ballistics on shootings of all calibers were available and everyone wanted the caliber with the highest percentage of One Shot Stops . For Forty Years the King of One Shot Stops was a .357 magnum round with a 125 gr. bullet velocity 1,500 fps ! It was devastating on the human body. Well .357 Sig duplicates these exact ballistics with twice the capacity of a revolver, and that is why I owe several .357 Sig pistols.
YMMV but for myself i want the greatest amount of rapid, controllable energy on target. My underwood xtreme defender 65 grain .357 sig's are pushing over 2000 fps and 636 fpe out of my glock 32, with the recoil impulse of a 124 grain 9mm. Even Federal plinking ammo pushes past 1300 fps and 500 fpe in most cases. I honestly love 9mm as well, but it's not the ultimate do-all defensive caliber it keeps being forced to be with all its additional +'s and p's.
could you do this test again with hollow points maybe some buffalo bore or federal HST or hydra shock
Why would you assume, I have not tested those already?
I don't recall anyone ever saying 9mm +P+ is "just as powerful" as .357 SIG but more or less I've heard criticism of how anemic most available .357 SIG ammo is. Most manufacturers download the .357 SIG well below original design spec. Some have said that this anemic ammo is "not much better than 9mm +P+" Oh well. This is why I stick with UNDERWOOD for my .357 SIG loads. (10mm too!)
i have wondered how the 50 grain defense bullets would do at longer ranges .would they fly off target at longer range?
Do the same test with hollow points.
I have many times
Bullet choice is critical at higher velocities. 357 SIG bullets need to be closer in construction to 357 mag bullets. 9mm jhp bullets at 357 velocities turn into pancakes and penetrate similarly.
all you need to see is the muzzle blast from 357 Sig to know what the truth is.
😂😂😂😂
.357SIG is awesome!!! I wonder what that 9x19mm +P+ load would do out of a Henry Homesteader?🎩🧐🤔
I'll stick to the .38 or .40 or .357.
Great work thank you
The 9mm hitting the steel is just embarrassing. It’s barely scratching the paint. I don’t understand why the guntubers push it so much. I’ll stick with my 40sw and 10mm.
It's just that these are copper and they do not flatten on the steel, so they don't leave as big of marks.
One observation. Look at the slow mo of the bullet impacts. The 357 sig has considerably more “temporary wound cavity”.
This is a critical part of a bullets true stopping power. That temporary stretch is what shocks vital organs. A vital organ that is not directly impacted by the bullet can be “shut down” by the temporary wound cavity.
I agree, significant difference between the two calibers!
The stretching of the tissue (temporary cavity) is the way you can “see” the pressure. We are saying the same thing.
I carry the Glock 32c in 357Sig, I never feel undergunned!
Historically , there was a grain of truth to the " 9mm +P+ = .357 Sig . ( Clue - Today's .357 Sig has more velocity than 1st gen loads ) .
Back when .357 Sig was new , typical real world was 125 gr @ +\- 1250 fps ( multiple piblished chrono tests ) . In the same era , CorBon 115gr @ 1337 fps ( my chrono from G17 , but also multiple published chrono tests similar ) .
Both had excellent terminal performance , both of them overlapping full power .357 Mag 125gr from 2.5 inch revolver .
I recall reading that the .357 Sig was supposed to go 1,350 FPS from a 4" semi auto, which equaled a .357 Mag from a 3" barrel, or in a 5" semi auto the .357 Sig matched the 4" .357 Mag loads. My guess is the hotter ammo was the advertised, but the low end is what was used and shot to 'fool' agencies into adopting it as 9mm recoil, .357 Mag power.
I’d like to see the 68 grain 9mm +p vs the 68 grain 357 sig 780ftlbs vs 500ftlbs
th-cam.com/video/sJohgXeumXA/w-d-xo.html
Sometimes it's only an availability issue. We can always get 9mm in just about all flavors pretty much anywhere in the country. I don't dispute their effectiveness in any way but .38 Super and .357 Sig aren't always on the shelf locally and sometimes even when they are it's only the cheap and shitty loads left on the shelf. I have that problem with some of my old rifles, can't always get preferred loads for them.
The .357 Sig is a bit like, .32 S&W Long in that they are often not on local store shelves, but they can always be found online as both are pretty common and popular, just not common and popular in all parts of the country.
Same as saying 222 Remington is as powerful as 22-250 😂.. bless his heart.
There is a similar group of people who claim the 10mm is as powerful as the .41 magnum. I know…right? Wanting to believe, is one thing, but refusing to believe is ridiculous.
I mostly hear people saying the 10mm is more powerful than the .44 Mag. When I address this as wrong, they then start talking available ft lbs that add up, 15 rounds of 10mm is 11,000 ft lbs of energy, 6 of .44 Mag is 5,000 ft lbs energy etc. I tell them, that's not how it works - because their example is like saying 15 bb gun bb's is the same as a single shot of .22 LR....They stop responding.
For self defense....a bad guy wouldn't know the difference between the two. There's a reason everybody carries a 9....more rounds, less recoil, cheaper to shoot, less report. Having said all that....the .357sig does kick ass!
Hi Sam, my wife and I just purchased a set of 9mm S&W FPC's with 16.25" barrels.
Do you have any idea of what the FPS would be with this ammo?
Thank you for another great video!
Hornaday critical duty 135 gr
And the 357 Sig bullet form, is more reliable for jams.💙💙💙
The double tap 77gr schp in 357 sig must be a devastating round
the problem with bullets flying off at range may be the rifling is designed for a bullet half again as heavy.that weight is not stable.
another myth misunderstood by the gun communty is pain, books written about pain show that just because the wound is bigger it doesnt mean it hurts more because it depends on the nerves and also you got delayed pain that you dont feel sometimes when your in shock so a little more damage doesnt equate always to more pain like on a 1 - 10 chart because it depends on many factors, this is why guys can soak up anything unless blood pressure gets dropped or head shot, spine and such, damage certainly will stop someone but if that shot is in the right place. if you blow out the heart with a 9 mm or 357 sig i dont think there is much of a difference to mean much when a round with 10 - 20% less energy yields almost the same results, a 60 caliber hole in the heart or 70 caliber is still a big hole gushing out and like i said a non vital area it doesnt mean 10 - 20% more energy hurts more wich is a myth people used to equate more damage with more pain wich isnt always true due to many factors, you actually surviving being shot by a smaller caliber will feel more pain if nerve ending can still send messages to the brain where as a larger caliber may sever nerves giving it a numb feeling or a delayed pain that comes later when you get treated, its the same concept of breaking a leg and not feeling it at first and then stub picky toe on door and jump up and own right away feeling more pain immediately from smaller wound, so people think for example if you get hit in a non lethal area with a 9 mm and a 45 then the 45 you will feel more pain, not necessarily and we know guys perfectly sober and not on drugs can soak up a dozen 45 acp rounds if shot placement isnt correct like the cop in ohio massad ayoob interviewed who finally after all his duty issue 45 acp mags of his Glock 21 45 hit the perp with his last shots in heart and head wich is proof its all about shot placement since pain doesnt kick in even with a wide wound channel or the will of that person can ignore pain better, even a adrenaline dump in the body can offset pain
People need to be more concerned about hitting their target than over penetration.
I challenge anyone to annotate one civilian shooting where over penetration injured an innocent bystander.
I’m glad you touched on how clear gel is not the same as 10% the FBI uses all compared to human tissue. As gel tests become the norm, it’s important for people not to get use to such tests and start correlating the results as results one may expect on the streets.
True. I think I heard of it where a cop did it, but not an ordinary person.
@@GunSamand they are much more likely to be in confined areas w non-threat targets. Even taking LE in to consideration, how many over penetration reports are there where someone was inadvertently injured? I was a LEO for over ten years and haven’t heard of any - not that that means anything, lol. I’m sure the results would be so low that over penetration is almost a moot point… except for Air Marshals etc.
Is +p+ safe in my sig p320 axg legion comp?
"Why would you buy 357 sig when you can buy bubba's pissing hot ammo?" Actually it comes down to practicality, if you're into 10mm then you might only have 357 sig as an option for a specific pistol due to frame size, some of those pistols are just a matter of swapping a 40 S&W barrel.
Just curious, how's the difference in recoil? I have that same pistol in .40, might be interested in getting a Sig barrel for it....
I guess you kinda answered that later in the video. Oops! 😂
The 357 Sig was envisioned as a cartridge for pistols that approximates the power of the 125 gr 357 magnum, which it certainly does. Unfortunately the ammo is so expensive that it has not become a commercially viable round. Pushing a 9mm to attempt to attempt to duplicate the performance of the Sig will undoubtedly result in premature wear on the 9mm. Accept the 9mm as the preeminent defensive round which performs well with today's ammo. If you need more, then buy a 357 or the Sig.
Beware of the 9mm 40-cal burst. You can load a 9mm round into a 40 cal. Barel and creat a bore Obstruction then load a 40 cal around behind it.
Sounds like an apples to persimmons comparison. If you're going to compare plus P plus, shouldn't you get 357 Sigg plus P plus?
.357 Sig was made over 90 years after 9mm. There's no such thing as .357 Sig+P as the +P moniker only applies to cartridges created about pre 1925.
357SIGは弾頭形状が悪かったから貫通しただけで、開きやすいホローポイント弾にすれば間違いなく停まるでしょう。
ただ拡張を遅らせるハイドラショック弾では、357SIGの速さだと貫通しないか不安です。
弾数の僅かな低下だけでマグナムオートが手に入る357SIGは素晴らしい！
しかし、「357SIGの圧力に耐えられる設計の同じ銃で」＋P＋を使えば銃の寿命にゆとりを持たせながら強装弾をバカスカ撃てるから、目的によっては＋P＋を選ぶ事も間違いではないかと思います。
Sam, what is the conversion barrel you have? I may get one of these .40s soon as I love my 9mm
KKM longslide/pro 5.01"
actual terminal ballistic differences, as in wounding and mythical "stopping power" between handgun rounds is negligible. Carry whatever load that YOU shoot BEST. It's really that simple. Getting into these extra powder handgun (yes I said powder not power) does NOT ensure that you are carrying a magic "death-ray".
It’s just a matter of everyone has already bought a 9 mm and think it’s the best so whatever the results are you’re not going to convince them otherwise. Plus the ammo was cheaper and more abundant
Yes, exactly. Said guy buys a Taurus G2C (decent pistol not knocking it) and a box of target ammo, then researches what he bought and finds evidence he made the best choice, then starts getting into grey areas- urban legend type nonsense that it's just as powerful as .357 Magnum and the like. You can find exactly what you want to hear if you look long enough for it. They say Bigfoot chasers always find evidence of it's existence, because they were looking for what they thought correct evidence was.
@@GunSam the Budweiser of guns 😉
The difference is you can get 500 ft lbs from a plus p 9mm in a duty length gun, you can hit 700 with 357 Sig.Both those numbers would be light for caliber bullets in max loads.
147 gr is where .357 Sig can shine. With 147 gr 9mm, I typically see 300 ft lbs. With 147 +P+ I can see about 430 ft lbs energy. In .357 Sig 147 gr I see 540 ft lbs energy.
@@GunSam the only factory 357 I have seen in 147 is kinda weak like the Hornady not too bad, I think Underwood could load one at 1300 plus would be ok by me 1300 is the number.
@@paulscountry456 The one I am speaking of was Underwood, I was averaging 1,286 FPS
@@GunSam never seen those , I do have lots of Underwood in 65 and 90 extreme defenders and the ultra hot 124 Nosler sporting , Buffalo bore made a 125 tac xp copper I like but so many choices and most are devastating in 357 Sig.
Comes out to be close but you are spending more money on buying 9mm+p+ VS standard 357 sig or 40cal. And if your worried about over pen then a standard hp solves that.
What I like about .357 Sig, is it's a caliber that more people are using in a .40 S&W with conversion barrel like me, rather than just having a .357 Sig pistol. It's kind of like, when you buy a .40 S&W VS a .357 Sig pistol, it's comparable to a person buying a .357 Magnum revolver over a .38 Special revolver, in that Glock, M&P, Sig pistols and the like in .40 S&W can easily convert. My point is, one can shoot lower pressure .40 S&W as much as they want, shoot some .357 Sig too, as where in 9mm you're limited to one thing and barely able to do much in the way of variety.
@@GunSam like with the 9mm 40 deal. They said 40 was over stressing parts on the gun VS standard 9mm so that was a big reason for the switch but to get the numbers close to 40 they use 9mm+p and +p+ ammo which puts more pressure and stress on the gun than 40 which defeats the purpose.. on top of ammo cost being higher on the high end 9mm stuff VS standard 40... in my le days I used standard 40 ammo with the standard flat nose and flat nose hp and spent just as much or less on a box of 50 VS a box of 9mm in a 20 rd box.
Love the shirt
people say random statements but i think what most mean by saying hot 9 mm is as powerful as 357 sig is when comparing it to a few watered down 357 sig wich may be out there but certainly if 9 mm can be made hotter so can 357 sig and no doubt a 9 mm case will never be able to do that of a 357 sig
I don't have either -- no intention of getting either --- as far as I can determine the 40S&W is a lot better than 9mm for defense ---- so a 40 it is -- EXCEPT it makes better sense to just get a 10MM you can load it with "watered-down" to 40 or go with full-power loads. That Underwood 135 grain 10mm is as fast as the sig's 90 grain OR the 100grain Xtreme Defender rated at 1825 fps -- that makes better sense to me. JUST SAYING!!!!!!
I agree that .40 S&W is better, it's my main home defense caliber as it's nearly the same effectiveness as .357 Sig/Mag, but more common, less snappy recoil and more bullet weight. Personally I wouldn't go with 10mm with light loads only because the well designed ammo like HST, Gold Dot etc in .40 S&W are perfect, if you go into 10mm in those you are getting really hot ammo that is more powerful and more recoil than really needed.
@@GunSam What you said is true -- but around here in the last few years "black-bear" attacks are on the rise here in the Smokies -- there are a LOT of black bears and we we have some real brusiers over 6 ft tall and probably 500+ pounds so a 10 MM does actually make more sense for me! We have 2 different BIG-BOYS that do visit our neighborhood 🤞no major problems so far, only birdfeeders destroyed.
357 sig ain’t no punk. Wish it was more popular.
357 SIG
SIG should have named it the 9mm Magnum. Because that is what it really is.
Now days, yes if invented now maybe 9mm Magnum. But in 1994, cops were still transitioning from .357 Mag revolvers to semi autos, and none trusted any caliber other than their proven .357 Mag, so Sig named it .357 Sig to get the interest of law enforcement.