The best use I've found for melee cavalry is to have them intercept horse archers. They don't need to kill 'em, they just need to tie them up long enough for the foot soldiers to win the fight. A cavalry shortage is pretty painful when fighting against Aserai and Khuzait armies, it makes a world of a difference to be able to keep them busy dealing with butter knights so they can't pepper your troops uncontested.
Yeah I love using cavalry against horse archers! At the very least the run them back the the enemy line :) I've always found the Khuzait to be a real pain to fight against, but usually come out on top so I think it's more of an annoyance than a real threat in my games lol
Reason why I've gone through the effort of making a full cav army as a vlandian lord, dealing with the cavalry bastards is far easier now since I can just say no to their cav
yeah this. every fight that i know is going to have enemy horse archers i set up a diagonal line of archers and and some horsemen further back to keep the f*ckers from circling
I love playing as khuzait, I run all cav mainly archers but I add in about 40% lancers and cycle charge them as a flank gets exposed. I charge through with the lancers then have them reset to follow me after the initial charge. It's 100% faster than just full horse archers
Skein formation is weird. Historically it's purpose was to pierce through a formation with a center loaded force (Traditionally it looked more like an arrow to really get that heavy punch through the enemy.) This would heavily disrupt the opposing formation, divide a group of troops in half, and allow your infantry/cavalry to get behind the enemy and effectively encircle them quickly or harass/target troops the enemy might want to keep protected such as archers or skirmishers. But in Bannerlord the human aspect of disruption doesn't really apply to the AI since they magically know where to be, and you can already very easily break right through an infantry formation with a cav charge in any formation. Skein seems like a roleplay formation more than a practical one. Especially since equalized alpha damage strikes are the name of the game in Bannerlord, the layered hit one at a time strat just gives the infantry more chances to land a killing blow on the charging cav.
I think you have it spot on - It's more of a RP formation to use. It would be really cool if they could model the human aspect of war and combat in a, but I can't even comprehend how difficult it would be. This reminds of the conversations that sprung up about pikes and how they were a deterrent for horses rather than a deadly stick to stab with, but it's difficult to model horses fear I guess.
I think the physcological factor was part of it too. When you are in a line holding for a charge and you see the highest concentration of horses gathering in a collision course. You may see troops moving out of the contact point to not get trampled instead of valiantly taking the brute force of the charge. Causing a domino of effect of the biggest concentration of cav facing a smaller concentration of troops. But the AI simply doesnt fear death by a 100 horses.
I always thought skein formations was to blitzkrieg to their backline and get their archers or (in some cases) get their leader if they are holding onto a spot. Either way I usually use skein formation for my foot infantry around mountains and such so archers usually have a worse time than shield wall.
Skein historically was for mobility while charging, it allowed the first unit in the arrow head to take command, every other soldier a rank behind would follow the rank front, allowing to make turns while on the charge without clashing. After the initial charge if you want your horseman to engage in melee of course a tighter and uniform formation would be better.
@@emircankose5740 Ah that makes sense, I suppose it's the same logic behind diamond formation and some others use throughout history then? I don't have any experience riding horses so it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's also not an issue in Bannerlord since they just act like bumper cars lol
This guide was both painful and fun to make! I learned so much and I really hope you can too from watching it. It's a bit longer that the usual, but I cut it down from 25 minutes to 20 because breaking it up into 2 videos was not an option. Also, I didn't label anything as a bonus because I felt like 60% of the video would be considered a bonus haha. If you missed any of the previous 4 episodes in the series, you can find them on the playlist here: th-cam.com/play/PLtLh7oY6l6_-imuXlvZSFiZErbNrG06Ol.html
So I do not mean to sound ungrateful for your time and dedication to this, but I do have to ask, in the Cav vs Melee infantry, why did you not test the compact square formation for infantry? With so many bodies packed together, would they not stop cav that entered the formation by the mid point, thus robbing many cavalry of their momentum?
@@mikhailfilitov1479 Lol I like that, it doesn't take forever to say :) There are a lot of Ls and Rs in Javelin Cavalry which can be tricky to say fast
@@Sprayer-px3tu Yeah that was a mistake, sorry about that. The final recap page is the most accurate one since I was using that and I must have forgotten to adjust the crop
I've never used skein/wedge calvary formations in Mount and Blade or the Total War games because I'm unconvinced the AI is good enough to make them really work. In a real battle there's a big psychological component in using formations like that. It may take a lot of nerve for a line of spearmen to hold when a line of calvary begins charging them but they're all together facing them down. However when the calvary is charging in skein/wedge formation they're pointing at 2 or 3 of the spearman in the frontine and those guys have to watch those charging horses knowing they're going to get hit first. That's not to say they'd turn and run but they're going to side step a little bit and be more willing to give ground and that will allow the calvary to piece the formation.
Yeah that's a tough one to model in a game. There are a bunch of things similar to this that would be nice to have, but I'm not even sure how they would implement it? I agree with you though.
WingfootMcNova use those in Total War games, the formation itself changes about nothing but the ability gives you vertain buffs and debuffs, they can be useful diff from bannerlord since it does not add buffs
Basically when in doubt use either shield wall or square, these formations just work in most situations as long as you do not leave them in advance if the enemy meets your units.
@@Strat-Guides Its easier than than you think actually. Not everything has to "happen" in a game, thats why we have rpg elements to them. When the cavalry using skein formation, they could just ignore enemy infantry's knockback/knockdown resistence completely, and it would express that "one soldier in the front side stepping and giving ground" _just_ perfectly enough.
Can I just say, you have become my go-to guy for bannerlord content. The extensive tests and data. So much work. I learned sooo much from all of your videos. So from the bottom of my bannerlord soul, thank you 🙏 also man shieldwall was surprising
Thank you! I hope I continue to earn that designation :) I know, I'm embarrassed to say that this was probably the first time in 3k hours of playing that I used shield wall for cavalry. Who knew??
Interesting. One of my favorite tactics with massed cavalry is to give them the Column and Follow Me orders, then lead them around the enemy infantry in a big snake to line up parallel with the enemy archers. Then, giving the charge command while still in column means your cavalry charge the *length* of the archer line and completely avoid infantry!
I do almost the same but cycle forth and back through enemy lines like making an 8 with enemy lines in the middle of this 8. So my cav doesn't stay long enough inside enemy lines to be drawn into close fights but still has its charge bonus and when enemy lines get lose I give the charge command. This keeps casualties low and makes a lot of fun.
I *really* liked the new way you're editing the table of the data. Laid out nice and clean so people can pause to watch, narrated accurately but also having the visual aid of colour coding red and green is great. I've been coming back to these videos heaps because there are so many little gems in them.
These formations and tactics tests are exactly what M&B needed all along. We fight, but we, apparently (cav skein) don't know if we can perform better.
Your guides are absolutely lovely, but I must say that I would also love to see some actual gameplay from you where you apply your terrific knowledge in strategy and tactics to dominate as a Calradian Napoleon.
Thank you for watching! I do have a series I just finished recently, but I didn't apply any of these tactics in there since I completed that before starting these tests. I have another campaign that I'm hoping to start before the end of the month, so keep an eye out for that! It will be playing as Amir Timur (Tamerlane) and will be an extremely hard bandit run :)
@@TheCillisSst Sweet, I'll do my best to get it out soon! Here is a basic overview of the ruleset we will be following: - Start with nothing (no money, weapons, armor, food, nothing) - Start at war with all kingdoms including minor factions and in jail somewhere - We aren't allowed to buy supplies from anywhere (peasants, caravans, towns, etc.) until we capture a fief, then we can trade with only our own fiefs. - We can only convert prisoners, no hiring troops of any kind. Prisoners are limited to troops that cannot be recruited normally, so we can use bandits, mercenaries and minor faction units (also peasants, these are really important actually lol) - No smithing to sell at any point, all money must be earned from loot, raiding, fiefs, etc. I've done extensive testing and I finally figured out a way to make it work :D
So I came back to this one while developing some more "unorthodox" tactics during my "establish the vaegir kingdom" RP run-through and stumbled on a gold'y thanks to this vid. With the pre assumption that the Vaegirs love 2h weapons, archers, and individual combat over formated line fights I was obviously having a bad day to massed vlandian charges that my small number of heavy cav just sucked up so many casualties trying to slow down for me. So, I stuck a 2-deep line of heavy cav in front of the archer line in shield wall and put a clump of sturgian linebreakers in between the ranks. It was phenomenal. The vlandian charge stopped dead on the front rank of holding cav and then just MELTED when the linebreakers charged. 150 kills, 0 deaths. Thanks strat, as always your vids are so pivotal to my continued success in this game.
Nice!! I do something similar, but I am going to try it your way because I generally keep my shield wall slighty ahead and get some casualties. I usually stick my cav in shield wall inside the shieldwall formation, but I think your way is more optimal! Thanks for sharing :)
I usually don't comment on TH-cam videos, but your channel is *criminally* underrated! Well done, especially with this battlefield tactics series! You deserve a ton more viewers.
I'm happy to help :) Once I get done with the unit vs unit testing, I'll make all of the data public for all to access as well in case anyone is curious!
I love how the Skein formation has become a meme on the channel. Anyway, one of the weird things about cavalry in MnB (both Bannerlord and Warband) is that having your horse killed under you, historically, was a very bad thing. Not only did you lose the Ferrari of the day, but you are also liable to have yourself trapped under your own horse, breaking legs at best or breaking your spine at worst. Assuming of course the rider wasn't able to jump off his horse before that happen. But of course, in MnB, the horse acts as an extra healthbar. This means that horse archers are just BEEFIER than normal archers, because the former doesn't have a decrease in accuracy. Historically, horse archers would charge within a hundred yards, shoot, and wheel away. Anyway, just wanted to give my 2 florins. NOW GIVE ME BANDITLORD EPISODE 1, STRAT.
Oddly enough it's best on infnatry vs infantry battles and worst used with cavalry lol makes sense (TW Maths)! Yeah good point, also there are no injuries to deal with until health goes to 0. It's funny how 1hp troop performs the exact same as 100hp troop, but that might be tough to model in game? Haha I have to get the recap video for WC done first :) I just started on that last night at the same time I was uploading this one! The work never pauses for a moment, trust me!
@@Strat-Guides you could have your weapon and athletics skill decrease in-battle by .5% for every 1% of health lost. and have perks in athletics that mitigate to maybe a .25% decrease or something?
@@chappy4756 That's a good idea and would probably be easier to implement. Although maybe it would add a lot of processing power to have it tracked for each unit? I'm not really sure, I don't code at all lol But I like the idea. I'm sure people would complain about the damage not being localized (leg hits slow movement, arm hits slow swing speed, etc.)
Totally agree. They sould add fall damage when the horse is killed (and maybe a chance for the rider to be killed instantly?). That would balance the whole game while being more realistic. If they dont do it maybe a modder will?
Holy crap. You just changed my view of how I use my cav. I thought the same thing you did about the skein, so it's good to see I'm not the only one who thought that. Thanks for the info, man. I have been doing break even work at best, and that makes so much sense now.
This one I think is the most useful to me yet, because I've never been great at using cavalry as effectively as I know they *could* be. The shieldwall and square results are super interesting, and I had no idea the cataphracts could brace their spears like that. Thanks!
Yeah me too! I've integrated a lot of these into my recent play through and it made a huge difference. Actually, one thing that works wonders is to have your infantry in shield wall with cavalry in shield wall right behind them or even inside the infantry formation. Once the enemy cav hits the formation, they all melt away quickly! If they have a lot of cav, you can place horse archers right behind them since they seem to shoot through everything lol
I learned to fear the Menavilaton fairly early on. When you are riding into a line of infantry on horse back, those little bastards are about the only ones able to hit you. And when they do, they do some serious damage.
I appreciate you using different unit types and mixing up the numbers. The sizes of the units can very much change the outcomes of battles even in fairly close engagements.
Before watching I hope Wedge formation performs well because as a Total War and Conqueror's Blade player I just carried that habit over and use my cav to charge in Skein all the time. It just feels and looks right. Although a proper Wedge formation would be really neat. Edit: man that sucks
Excellent work! Never would have thought to use shield wall formation. And interesting data on how archers fare better in loose vs the charge than in a tighter formation. I liked the triple ranked charges!
@@miketrice533 Especially with ranged weapons, too many troops concentrated into one area make for easy targets. There is probably a logistics reason for it too although I don't know that much about it. You bring up a good point!
There's one command missing there, and it's the one I often default to with cavalry: follow. It creates a long column behind you, which you can then use to manually charge the enemy from the flanks. It slaughters troops in line formation, and if you charge from the right infantry can't use their shields effectively. Against another cavalry unit it helps outmanouvering them. You can attack their weak spots for massive damage or disrupt their formation to prevent their charge from gaining momentum. It's micromanaging, but you can do it for just 1 or 2 charges and then give the charge command so you can focus on the rest of your troops.
I do kind the same, I tend to have a strong cavalry, atm I begin with intercepting enemy cavalry, that done the infantry usually just begun fighting, this allows to charge the back with a wide formation, loads of kills right there, pull back and repeat, basically shock cav tactics, the infantry and archers stay back, and when they engage I relegate command
It's always very nice to find one of your videos, they are very instructive. now, there are two tests I've missed in this vid: - charging and then staying (in shield wall maybe) without charging back and forth, it seems to me like a good idea against both cav and archers - charging archers from the flank. this is very often possible and I actually do it most of the times.
Thank you! - That's a great point as the strength of shield was vs other cav is the close quarters. I'll have to keep that in mind for the mixed unit testing. - So anything from the flank is great for minimizing casualties, since they will be focused in a different direction. My biggest concern there is compared to hitting directly on, the casualties inflicted are a bit less, so there is a tradeoff. I'm not sure which one would win, but it's definitely worth a test! I'll give it a shot when I get a chance this week :D
please test relative effectiveness of using the move command to put "Line" formation calv on top of the archer formation. Without cycle charging the archers go into melee mode and don't get to shoot the retreating calv in the back.
Welp i guess i wont be using skein formation anymore, simply fascinating testing !!! Well done sir !!! One thing id like to see (probably gonna have to be a mod) is the ability for the player to use cavalry in a siege battle. Id love to be able to sally out from a secondary gate to cycle charge the attackers/break the siege equipement and then fall back behind the walls. Altho id imagine that would be some major work (AI pathing, increase of siege map size, bigger spawn area and making sure units dont spawn on roofs and i could go on). Now for the mounted archers/skirmishers, thats gonna be a good one (they all are really)
I know, I will probably still use skein from time to time just based on pure habit lol I'll have to retrain my brain :) 100% agree, that would be such an amazing thing to see. I think there are many cases where a sally out would be appropriate, but lack of mobility makes it less-so. I'm excited to test the ranged cav as I have a few ideas that I want to test out that might change the way I build my army!
@@Strat-Guides Never would I have thought either to follow such advice, but the numbers are undeniable. :D (and everything in me is adversed against using Shieldwall with cav *shudders*, so luckily I have an alternative. XD)
i started yesterday watching your videos.... with this one i achived 100% of your channel lmao, i would love to see a money making guide, thats where i strugle the most, thanks for all the info dude
Lol nice, I wish there was a steam unlock for that :D Come to think of it, Bannerlord needs some unlocks to collect! Okay got it, I do have that one on my list. The easiest answer is smithing, but for some that's a bit too easy to cheesy. Outside of smithing, it's tough until you get a town or two. It's like a vicious cycle - you need to be in combat all the time to make enough money to afford your army, but you need a big army to be able to win in combat, which means... it repeats over and over lol
@@Strat-Guides exactly, thats what i strugle with because i hate smithing lol, it feels like a must in a build and have to spend skill points that could be used somewhere else. thanks for the fast reply. cheers :)
@@NachoDasso Yeah I know exactly what you mean. I don't really use smithing anymore because it makes the game a bit boring. Struggling some keeps things interesting :) I think you just have to use a combination of things: workshops, battle loot sales, prisoner sales, etc. to make enough until you get some fiefs that spit off cash. No problem!
Nice, perfect timing!! Next week will be ranged cavalry, but not sure which day I'll have it finished by. I'm working on the recap episode for the WC series for the next couple of days.
Something I am fond of doing is to use elite heavy cavalry in an anti-infantry role. Not so good in real fights but a few expensive horsemen are a very satisfying way of dealing with looters.
Your findings about shield wall are quite interesting, as they are historically accurate. When on the defensive, irl cavalry would cluster as close as possible.
just wanted to comment that I love the content! Love the effort you put into these vids, it really shows. Keep up the work, and hope to see more from you!
I use full Calvary. Currently 130 melee calvary and 118 horse archers. I take on armies 4 times my size and lose about 5 men. When a war breaks out I immediately go into enemy lines and attack any lord I find stopping them from making strong armies. At the start of a war between Western empire and batannia had captured over 30 lords right after the war started. Hear the end of that war 4 armies of 430-460 marched into my territory (at this time I had around 130 men) I crushed all of them as my men were experienced with while theirs were mostly just recruited. My calvary have wiped out the northern empire, southern empire, vlandia, and batannia.
i think the reason why shield wall, square, and circle formations produce good results for melee engagements of most troop types is that the AI holds their shield up constantly in these formations. a line charge has the AI spending more time swinging their swords than holding up their shields, so they get hit more often which makes the soldier go down quicker. a shield wall charge has the AI spending more time holding up their shields and a little less time swinging their swords, so the shield absorbs much more damage and the soldier can fight for longer. the best offense is a good defense, so to speak.
Yeah that's true, it's almost impossible to get around a shield in this game. I should put it on regular speed and just watch up close to see what's really going on. Great analysis though, I think you're probably right :)
@@SocuteRaptor I tried a couple different formations that didn't make it into the video, but in my experience they don't really do well unless they are given the charge command, regardless of the formation. I'll have to double check my database to see if I specifically ran that one, maybe it would help!
@@Strat-Guides I played this game like a year ago, back then, there is no pike brace, so the best way to counter an AI cavalry charge is to move my own cavalry in front to body block them. But early game without cavalry, shield wall is a must. There is no other choice.
@@SocuteRaptor Yeah it's tough to counter cavalry without your own cav. Even spear brace is not very reliable because it only works when they charge directly into them. Otherwise the pikes are totally useless lol. It seems like shock troops are the best counter for foot vs cav so far.
i think where skein shines is by making it easier for the rest of your cav to get thru the enemy line and not get bogged up, keeping the momentum going so they can run somewhere else, which can arguably be more important, especially if you start with a skein with an initial charge not expecting much damage with that, but then following about 30-50 yards behind with a line of cavalry to ensure maximum coverage of the enemy line. start on your side with the line of cav infront of you and the chevron infront of that (conversely you can lead the charge at the head of the chevron with the line behind it all). order the chevron to advance get ready to set the cav line behind to advance. advance. when the chevron is about at the right distance tell it to charge. then tell the line to charge. this can be followed up with other dedicated cavalry lines to charge or having a light cavalry pick off individual troops or to have your infantry rush in in whatever particular fashion you like. another chevron and line tactic that works (with the same setup, just maybe a slightly longer delay) is to do a hammer and anvil cavalry attack. get the chevron to go thru the enemy, then get the line to charge and then get the chevron to charge again after its ready.
@@Strat-Guides do you do videos on multifaceted tactical strategies? ive seen some other vids on yours and i like seeing when you combine formations and movements to properly utilize a formation or tactic
@@elijahoconnell So I have 2 more big topics on my list before I start making EU4 and HOI4 content - how to make/manage a kingdom and finishing off the tactics series. For the tactics series I'm going to be covering how to fight with a full army and testing many of the tactics discovered in these individual unit guides and some of them are pretty micro-intensive and complex!
I saw someone mentioning how cavalry back in the day would use a diamond formation for attacks, I would bet what makes the circle formation plus charge work is exactly why diamond was used. Initial wave lands, then the back half as well, giving a layered strike doubling your troop concentration in the middle formations of the opponent.
@@Strat-Guides exactly! I would bet manually controlling the formation to strike then rotate out and then back for another strike would be pretty clean. Maybe. I saw this at work, so I can't wait to get home and test it 😂😂
Shield wall on cavalry certainly has its uses in normal battles as well. You can use cavalry and horse archers as mobile infantry/archer combos to ride out to a flank, put your horses in shield wall in front of your horse archers, then just treat them as a normal foot soldier army that can retreat quickly if need be. Legionaries don't do well against cavalry. Despite having a short polearm, they seem to hate using it regardless of circumstance. I wish they would just give them normal javelins tbh. Other cultures like battania have an abundance of polearms on their troops, yielding much better results against pesky cavalry groups.
That's a solid idea. I wonder if the horse archers can fire through the shield wall too since they are cav? Those HA are cheaters lol Yeah I noticed that, they rarely pull the Pilum out. It's a shame cause it does decent damage.
you just need to keep your infantry on shield wall so they don't get hit hard by the charge at all or 1 shot by couch lance. legionaries will throw their polearms and they only have 1. so if you hold fire they might pull it out and stab the cavs with it. the darkhans are in the same weird position but they have better throwing spears that do more dmg and are longer.
@@storm0fnova Oddly enough, in all the testing I did there wasn't a single Pilum that was thrown! I'm wondering if they changed the AI recently because I'm pretty sure I remember they doing that previously.
@@Strat-Guides yeah i think they made the ai not throw their last throwable or something like that. which is odd since legionaries and darkkhans only have the 1. i remember all the testing i did last year they threw their spears and if you time the volley right before the charge you see a nice span of greens. but it was months ago any things change too much.
@@storm0fnova Yeah I think they tweaked the AI at some point because I remember it being good with throwing weapons, then terrible. Now in today's patch it seems they fixed it again lol so here's to hoping!
Thank you!! This one was a bit tough as I wasn't expecting it to take this long to do. I think it was worth it though as melee cav was certainly my weakest area in bannerlord.
Nice. I usually have equally distributed footmen/archers and cav. I use the cav to run behind the enemy while the infantry charges and the archers advance. When the battle commences, inf takes its toll archers holding ground behind and cav cirle charge withdraw charge.
@@dlab1978 I used to avoid infantry personally, but from these tests it seems as long as they don't have a lot of shock troops or braced inf then it's a really good trade to make!
somewhat unrelated to this video: when using a shield wall to stop enemy army for other units (specially archers) to flank, i usually *make shield wall fall back 10 steps while simultaneously telling my flanks to advance to position because aggro is already off them*. This halves the time needed to get them in position. As a bonus, i call melee cavalry back and forth for big charges in a way that doesnt trap the enemy to diminish our casualties and so working the enemy army's morale down while leaving them room to flee and get shot in the back
I chose to play with banner knights only on my main character, and I notice that even though, skein formation is for cavalry, its performance is quite poor. Your video helps a lot. Thank you!
@@DestroyerOfOgis i did not played with other cavalry apart from the aserai and the sturgian ones. I am still a new player, but I find vlandian cavalry better and also because I like knights in general.
I've had some Positive results with Column + Charge against enemy infantry. Cavalry punches through the enemy line and leaves a nice hole for my Infantry to Exploit.
So I tried column with the cavalry but I couldn't get it to work :( I suspect it's because I was trying with 500 haha I think the AI would have a much easier time with 50 - 100. I'll have to try it again with smaller numbers, thanks for the heads up!
@@christianmunkjensen8817 So I tried column, but my cav got stuck in a giant circular ball lol I only have 10 - 15 following me and the rest were goofing off. I think if I did it again with less than 500 cav it might work :) I think it's a good idea though, more surface area for the charge.
I like using two separate cav formations, both spread out and stacked about 5 units deep and width changes depending on how many I have on hand but at least 10
this was so intriguing to watch even though I'm a player that just presses F6 at the start of each battle and goes ham on the enemy with a two handed axe
Normally what I do albeit convoluted, I split my cavalry into two equal units, especially if I am playing defensive or am outnumbered. I split them into flanks on either side of the advancing enemy. I have my infantry in the middle and ranged behind them and their shield wall. As they approach my cavalry slams into the sides drawing the outlying soldiers attention , my infantry holds the line and archers pick them off through the chaos. Iam level 6 clan tier so my regular party is around 200-220 and I have around even splits between Calvary Archers and Infantry. Sometimes I skimp on the infantry depending on the faction I face, I go with more archers versus heavy horse factions like the Aserai. An abundance of archers usually makes mincemeat out of them lol. Haven’t lost yet despite being outnumbered 3 to 1 at some points. (Edit) I also play as Vlandia so my crossbowmen are high level and my Knights are pretty formidable. I usually recruit sturgian infantry though because their heavy armor seems to hold up better in line clashes.
I disagree because horses are powerful but it’s not a car.it would be simply unfair if you could trot through formations.There’s two possible compromises though.We could have it to where when you hit an infantry unit you lose all your speed and A knock them prone B deal more damage.
Haha I should have brought back the star wars scene again, but I just used it in the archer video. That's a good one though!! Yeah charge damage is so weak in game. It would take being trampled 25 times or so do down someone, which seems absurd lol I'm pretty sure the human body can't handle 24 charges and still survive only to die on the 25th :)
I think having them mow a whole line down would also be unrealistic, but I do think they should do more damage for at least the first 1 or 2 infantry they come into contact with. 2 - 4 damage is less than the looters stones and frankly I would rather get pelted by a rock than run into by a horse at full speed :D
@@Strat-Guides they should do more trample damage, but at the cost of slowing down, like irl - cav literally bogging down in deep inf formations where they are hopeless and surrounded. In summary - devaststing first impact plus uber morale damage even before the connection, after it massive slowdown where they are dead if enemy endured or without their own inf
From my test Cavalry with shield wall and charge command is best and it seems from your test, square seems solid as well. The reason is they are less likely to get killed by archers, skirmishers or horse skirmishers/archers on the battlefield due to having the shield up most of the time protecting from projectiles. Also as in case of infantry having your troops with their shield up increases their combat skills somehow blocking more and being less likely to get hit which means less casualties.
100% agree here! It also seems they do better in melee combat as well since the AI tends to swing aimlessly so having a shield up most of the time helps them out a lot.
In Multiplayer 'Captain Battle Mode' you would do well as cavalry to utilize F1 - F5 'Retreat' order. You move the cavalry where you want them to attack first, then begin the engagement by 'Retreating', keeping the men tight, and they can melee intercept the enemy on their own very well. They will play a defensive game intelligibly while wandering away from the main battle. If your cavalry is fighting scattered infantry, use F1-F4 'Advance' order to melee the scattered enemy infantry. Aggressively If your cavalry is fighting enemy cavalry, use F1-F5 'Retreat' order to pull their cavalry away from the main battle. Defensively Their cavalry will be at a disadvantage against your 'Retreating' melee cavalry, under most conditions.
Interesting info, I'm going to have to give that a go in single player! So with the retreat command in MP, they don't actually leave the battlefield then I assume? I single player they will if you let them go long enough.
@@Strat-Guides That's the best part: They will back away from the main battle. The enemy cav commander doesn't know what is happening. He allows his cavalry to follow yours. Your cavalry rides up onto the mountain side on the edge of the map. They cannot pass through the map edge but linger on the slopes. The enemy cavalry will be baited onto these slopes. If their cavalry is heavier and slower, or your cavalry is lighter and faster turning, then you will beat theirs. It takes a while for the enemy commander to realize the situation and fall back. Khuzait light cavalry naturally has superior turning and melee fighting so they do the best in this tactic, swirling alongside the map edges.
@@Strat-Guides Also your channel is very cool, I found your channel looking for the types of M.P. 'Captain Battle' Pro Tips like what I had previously commented. Your channel isn't quite tailored to 'Captain Battle' mode, understandably, but it's full of golden nuggets!
@@truthseeker-heyoka That's fascinating stuff! I appreciate you sharing it. Good point about Khuzait, their horses always annoyed me because they were so slow but they are very maneuverable...
@@truthseeker-heyoka Sadly I have not tried MP out yet as I have had to stay on the Beta branch for all of the guides. But soon I'll be done with the majority of them and will probably load up a bunch of mods and try some MP. I appreciate you watching and glad to hear there is still some info to be had from them :)
it's important to note that imperial cataphracts have 2h polearms which means on shield wall they can't use their spears. while all other cavalry with 1h spear can still use spear and have couchlance during shield wall. the shield wall charge is a lot better offensively with other faction cavalries. Also never really got into using Skien might as well call it slein cause it's a dead formation i never use. defensively the shields walls allow cavalry to be much more durable as their shields absorb a lot of the attacks, while not slowing them down like infantry. but offensively you want to have as much contact area as possible during charge (as shown by your 3 line method being most effective, 2 rows per line enough, u don't want more rows of cavalry per line of charge or they just run into the horse in front of them and come to a dead stop). the longer the line the better the result due to more points of contact (wrapping around the flank). the cavalry ai tends to bunch up and run into each other coming to dead stops. a while ago i ran some tests using tier 4 imperial cavs vs tier 6 fians. just checked the initial charge. did everything between narrow column to 2 row super long shield wall and found the latter offered the best result. of course from your testing i can tell if i split them into multiple lines and cycle charge it would be better still. another trick is i just run my cavalry through enemy formation. without issuing any command. this way i found they stay in formation the best and half way through the move, i tell them to turn and face the enemy once they get to the other side so they are immediately ready for another round.
Yeah that's a great point about the shields. I did some extra testing afterwards and couch lance didn't seem to have a big impact on cavalry vs cavalry charges, only if one side was holding ground and even then it was a tiny difference. There was a huge difference with couch lancing vs infantry though! Agreed, spreading them out seems to be optimal compared to a tight bunch that doesn't cover the enemy line. That's a good idea, you could issue the move order well past the line to avoid them getting hung up but they will still charge once they get close to the enemy without needing to give the command. I'll have to try that one out!
@@Strat-Guides with my experience it's interesting that in cavalry vs cavalry they don't use the spears much if at all. i had a group on shield wall and the imperial cataphracts got as many kills as the other noble cavs that had the spear vs horse archers. i think it's due to the horse rider ai only able to aim their couchlance low. which results in like 60% misses, 30% hitting the horse, and once in a blue moon they'd hit a horseman in the leg/foot. might just be anecdotal evidence but i think pretty much every time i got downed by a lance it's in the leg
@@storm0fnova True, the only time I notice they use it is when I see a horse rear up but it's pretty rare. I'm wondering if it's certain formations that let them use it but not others? I should pay closer attention to that. Yeah the AI aim with couch lance is odd, I noticed that as well.
This was great though I would have liked to have seen details on what troop types were being used. "Cavalry" is a bit nebulous. You did mention Legionaries and Menavliaton (though not whether they were regular or Elite Menavliaton) but I'd be curious to see whether there was a significant difference in results when pitting a given cavalry force against Fian Champions as opposed to some other kind of archers. Having said that, I do understand the video was less about specific troop types and more about effective formations. Still, having that information would be of benefit, I think.
Oh sorry, the unit info was in the data presented after most of the tests, although towards the end of the video I don't think I used them so great point, I should have added that in! I used all T5 units, so Cataphract for the cav, legionary and menavlion for infantry and Paletine archers. I have already started doing some of the work for unit vs unit testing, which I think will answer a lot of the questions you might have :) Yeah a couple people mentioned that haha It would have been more appropriate to misspell it as slain, but alas it was a typo that I missed in my final review of the editing.
Skein and line formations are best used to drive through a hole in a formation such as circle or break up a line and then following up with infantry to enable an envelopment of the broken lines flanks.
That's a good point, the charge itself might not be the most damaging but if it disrupts the infantry line it could result in higher KDR overall. I'll have to test that out!
@@Strat-Guides The key to taking out units faster is to hit units rather than their sheilds. If you step into units you make more contact with the unit itself. If charging with an animal your horse blocks attacks easier. If you are moving forward it is harder for the enemy to hit you as the weapon attacks are blunted... attacks do more damage if they are fully deployed. and they do more damage if they hit while advancing at the end of the attack type depending on attack type. Get a first strike also can stun your enemy giving you an advantage on attack, so getting a first strike gives you an operational advantage. If I want to take a position I use advance, while if I am about to reach a unit in melee combat I will change to attack by ordering a charge on the nearest enemies .. maneuvering can be done with advance as it simply moves the units forward to a position. Charge has the units pick an attack point and advance to them. Advance prioritizes movement to a point while charge initiates an attack. Units that do well on advance likely are sheild units with counter attack ability they likely are better at eating the intial attack they are engaged to.
@@WilliamAshleyOnline I've noticed that as well regarding advance - the shields seem to make up for the lack of aggression. Also, I wonder if ordering cavalry to run through the enemy would help at all rather than charging? Maybe clicking on a mountain behind the enemy, possibly getting them in and out the back before they get stuck.
The best way to use skein is to hit the infantry flanks at an angle with two groups. Hit archers stright from the sides, on their flanks, and move the calvary all the way down their line. I can take 50 cav and kill 200 archers with a handful of losses.
This is an infantry thing but its a tech I use against lower tier units to mine. I tell my infantrh to go to a position that is either directly on the enemy inf or slightly past them. My inf run and muscle their way through and I give the charge order. Lets my archers pelt the "from behind" as the enemy inf is forcer to turn to fight without ever really having to move the archers as much.
This likely changes a lot with cav that can couch vs. not as the catapharacts are primarily built around getting "stuck". What's interesting is that historically, I believe the wedge formation WAS pretty tight knit unlike the ones in the game, not to mention the addition of physics would bend the formation quite significantly. I never really understood skein as particularly effective use of the physics system tbh.
So I also tested with Bannerknights afterwards just to make sure things were still relevant and the biggest difference was Banner Knight vs foot troops. The couch lance seems to have issues against enemy cavalry, especially when they are moving. With cataphracts 100 vs 100 it took 5 charges to disperse archers on hold fire but only 3 charges with Banner knights. Fortunately, the AI still acts the same regardless of which unit is being ordered, so the tests are still relevant, but the time to kill will be much shorter for cav vs foot troops when there is enough room to properly cycle charge.
@@Strat-Guides Neat! Nice! Awesome work. All I gotta say is these tests really really make me want MnB co op and versus at the scale we see in the game!
@@saugatmanandhar6473 You have no idea how excited I would be if they release co-op or even PvP using large armies! I would probably pee my pants a wee bit tbh lol
To me cavalry is best used for nobles hunting. It goes like this: -get party size 100-200 -party is entirely on horses. Can be cheap to reduce costs. What matters is speed on the map and battlefield. -plunder enemy villages, and wait for enemy nobles to arrive -once a noble is nearby, pause plundering, and chase him down -nobles on lone patrol usually have cheap troops. But the sheer speed advantage allows to smash even veteran troops, so the battle is easy when manually commanded. Charge, retreat, charge, retreat. -execute enemy noble -rinse and repeat until entire kingdom falls. When you start meet mostly female nobles in battle, it means you're around halfway through with the kingdom. Also If I play as Empire, I don't execute imperial lords, unless they piss me off by besieging my cities. Another note is to NOT become a faction leader, as almost everyone will hate you. You can rule from the backseat with tons of influence anyway, and you can always orginise "an accident" that kills your ruler. Personally, I only bother with becoming a leader after already having conquered the world.
@@Strat-Guides my logic was that I didn’t want enemy archers taking out my horsemen in a charge. Also since normal soldiers perform better with shield wall.
@@stabbystab8363 Yeah that's a good reason. I just figured it would limit their combat ability since they might hit each other and stop the attacks, but that doesn't seem to be the case!
Thank you! It's a bit late now, but I finally got back from my break and released the horse archer tactics guide yesterday and if you check the bonus section (time stamps in the description so you can skip the other stuff) I show that it's possible with regular cav and javelin cav quite easily :)
Great vid. I would really like to know how the cavalry weapons and horses effect their fighting. Lance length? One handed verse polearm? Small steppe horses verse larger destriers? In my experience, cav are better when using one handed against cav or inf that are tight, like where your cav get stuck into the enemy lines and cant really cycle charge or get some distance. But, in longer battles where reinforcements come through, and troops are more widely spread, lances and spears are great for picking off exposed troops. Having smaller horses closer to the ground also make polearms kills against foot troops easier i think. And what about charge damage? Just some ideas bro :)
These are all excellent questions and I just don't have a good answer to any of them (I have some ideas, but without data they would be unfounded). In the very near future, I'll be doing unit vs unit testing and I think I should have a much better idea at that point. Those are very good points. I'm sure the charge damage adds up over time. Most AI won't 1-hit kill, so if they get bumped for 4 damage 5 or 6 times, that might be enough to take time to kill from 3 hits down to 2 or 2 to 1 and so on so it probably does make a difference.
I made a khuzait warrior for starting a campaign, just invested on horse archers only. A few months after, i got myself 140 khan's guard horse archers, i can intercept any army, and eradicate foot soldiers without taking any losses
Some of these I draw the line with powergaming because I know I would feel very silly having my cavalry stand and receive a charge straight on just because it works better. Also, the thing about Skein is that it's a formation designed to break through a line, and since bannerlord's physics and mass model allows horses to go through formations easily by default, there's literally no advantage in using it. Ironically it may be more useful when used by infantry, being told to go through a formation to make an opening.
Very good video, as always. I wonder why you didn't test engaging from the flank going to the other flank. Instead of a front charge, make a side charge. It seems to work quite good in my playthroughs
Yeah that's a good point, to be honest I just forgot about it. I already had about 30 minutes of stuff to show in the guide and I chopped it down to 20 minutes because it was just too long. I may do a short follow up video testing a few more things because there are a couple other things that people brought up as well that should have been tested. It's just a big topic and I think I didn't do it enough justice!
One big caveat here is that you're using cav that do not use spear brace. Cataphracts are great due to their high damage and armor but they have one huge weakness in their inability to spear brace and no shield while using a spear. Charging a cav formation that uses spear brace produces insane results. I keep my cataphracts in one formation and my spear brace cav units in another. The spear brace formation charges first followed by the cataphracts for close fighting.
That's a great point and I did run some tests after publishing this using Banner Knights and I found that cav vs cav the results are pretty much the same as in the video, but quite a bit different for cav vs infantry. The brace works best against static targets or one's on the ground. In the 100 vs 100 testing, instead of 5 charge cycles, the Bannerknights did it in 3, so that's a massive difference! However, only the front row braces from what I could tell, so it relies on a long enemy line.
@@Strat-Guides Cool! Spear brace charge into an archer formation (no sheilds) feels like committing a war crime. Especially if you loop around and hit them from the back. Great work as always!
Вы также можете спешивать всадников, используя их лошадей как живой щит. Возможно, вам понравится выстраивать спешенных banner knights в круг, оставляя пустое пространство внутри круга заполненным лошадьми (лошади не сбегут из замкнутого круга).
Very interesting video again. I am so happy I found your channel. Some things I am curious about and didn't see in the video: Did you consider charging the archer line from the side and not the front? Especially when it's a very long line. I would imagine that should provide the best result as in real life flanking is really important compared to frontal attack but I could be completely wrong in the world of Bannerlord. For the Legionary tests 2 questions: 1. Why not use the shield wall. It would seem the best formation to be able to hold against cavalry. 2. Did the legionaries have fire at will command or where they only on melee mode?
All this has done is reinforce my preference for cataphriacs and albertrist, I probably spelt both wrong, as you shown, cataphriacs have a in built counter to calvary in the on foot brace ability, as for albertrist, or heavy shield crossbow men, being able to shield wall in tough situations and switch to melee is a great counter to archer weaknesses
Thanks for watching! For offense, I would stick with square charge or shield wall charge. I need to test it out, but it might be even better to go shield wall, ride up to the enemy and stop just before reaching them and hold position, hopefully baiting them in :) Or you can aggro them with your main character and set you cav in shield wall nearby, bait them in there too. I have a few ideas that I'm still working on :)
>Best use of cavalry >Starionary line of shield wall >Worst use of cavalry >Skein charge into enemy One job. You had one job, TaleWorld And this video comes particularly jarring, given for last couple dayis I'm replaying "With Fire and Sword" (and as a gun-shy Crimea, no less), which operates on Warband mechanics with few tweaks. And it's just mind-numbing how in 2010 they managed to make solid game where cavalry charge works like a cavalry charge, pike wall works like a pike wall and units have both proper reach, counter and physical presence on the battlefield, but can't pull the same thing in 2020 (or ever since). Hell, even disorganised, automated frontal charge seems to work better by itself, and things get really awful once one side uses proper formations to counter whatever is trying to attack them. Bannerlord? Nope, sorry, it's fucked, hope you like having a spreadsheet of counter-intuitive formations in front of you during each prep phase for a battle. It also crushes my original dream of someone re-making WF&S on Bannerlord (which is all I really cared, tbf), since the battle mechanics are laughably awful when compared.
Yeah and I don't think this is something they can "hotfix" with a patch either, it's probably a large portion of their code. I'm not sure if this was intended or not, but I would love to hear from the devs on it!
@@Strat-Guides I think - but that's pure speculation - the initial goal was to "shake things up". And they shaken them so much, third of the game stopped working properly as a result. But since it's so ingrained into the gameplay at this point and since Bannerlord is already almost 5 years overdue (time flies under covid especially fast), all they can do is plaster the holes and smile while doing so, because changing the battle mechanics at this point is near impossible. If I can ask something - did you consider doing "small" comparisons for a change, or you don't think it would affect things? To elaborate: Warband was capped at 144 (145?) units at once to be taking part in the battle. Do you think smaller scale of battles could affect things, or it would remain unchanged in Bannerlord? Since it sometimes feels like the big problem is how much bigger the armies are and how this creates weird outcomes (like simply being swarmed over, because your 80 elites stand virtually no chance over their 400 peasants)
@@Myrth1 It's a good question - so the main reason I chose to do the testing at the higher numbers is to smooth out the data. For example, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a 10 vs 10 to end in a completely lopsided win based purely on luck. You only need 2 or 3 units to get lucky hits, turning the battle into a 8 vs 10 which snowballs into a total victory. However, the odds of 100 units getting luck and turning into a snowball win is extremely unlikely, which means the numbers from 500 unit battles will be more "stable" than for smaller ones. However, the units may act different in massive pack of 500 compared to a more realistic size of 100 - 300. Once we get into the mixed unit testing, we will be forced to use smaller group sizes so we will see then!
@@Strat-Guides I'm mostly asking about size around 100-150, rather than a literal handful of soldiers. And the reason is that your own outfit is going to be 100-150 soldiers strong and rest being just armies you command/are inside. So while I do get the statistical approach with bigger sample giving more stable results, this leaves it open to the speculation that the AI might behave differently at smaller soldier number, say, 100 guys.
Hey pretty helpful data, since I'm one of those skein formation users, haha. But to be fair, if the skein would be a bit more pointed and the flanks would be a bit more towards the center I think it's a better skein. Quick question: Is it an idea to run behind the enemy lines and call for "follow me"? Or is the AI too passive while in that command? My thought would just be that they try to pile up more since they are riding towards one goal, which is you. Idk but it'd be interesting to see in a test :-)
Yeah follow me works pretty well. I find that giving manual move commands works best (giving a move commands that goes through the enemy formation you want to charge), then follow me, then charge command last.
You'll never have to worry about movement speed again :D Taking a fief sounds like a pain though lol might want to level up tactics and auto resolve it!
I love putting them in skien and have them follow me while we route enemy cav (usually the AI has them in two groups to the side of their main units) or make a couple passes from the side or flank while simultaneously advancing my infantry. Once they are seconds from clashing into enemy lines THEN Ill order my cav to charge.
Yeah that's a great point - I'm not a fan of sending cav early on, but once the infantry lines are together it seems to be much safer for cavalry to roam.
@@Strat-Guides i actually already had watched that and ended up here. Very helpful, shield wall for horses and skein for infantry with the charge issued right as they are connecting has been a game changer.
hey thanks for your amazing bannerlord guides! there is so much effort in there! just one quick question: how do i tell only some of my cavalry to dismount?
Thanks! I'm glad to hear they are helpful :) So make sure you have your cavalry selected and press F5. If you want to have them mount back on the horse, just press F5 again. I find this very helpful when having my cav outnumbered and trying to save them. They tend to live longer dismounted and using the spear brace function!
@@Strat-Guides thanks for the quick response! the dismount command is hard to miss, but in the video you showed that dismounting a small fraction of your cavalry and leaving the rest on their horses showed improved results in cav vs cav battle. now i dont know how to dismount only a small part of my cav? wouldnt they either all dismount or mount up?
@@Freakatwar Oooh I gotcha, yeah you can do that if you have the time to micromanage it. What you need to do is select your cav group an press F3 then F5, then select and empty box to move some troops over. Let's say you have a group of 100 Cav, maybe you can move 20 - 25 over and leave the rest. Then you select the new group you just made (whatever empty box you selected) and then press F5 to dismount only those ones. No problem, I'm happy to help!
The best use I've found for melee cavalry is to have them intercept horse archers. They don't need to kill 'em, they just need to tie them up long enough for the foot soldiers to win the fight. A cavalry shortage is pretty painful when fighting against Aserai and Khuzait armies, it makes a world of a difference to be able to keep them busy dealing with butter knights so they can't pepper your troops uncontested.
Yeah I love using cavalry against horse archers! At the very least the run them back the the enemy line :)
I've always found the Khuzait to be a real pain to fight against, but usually come out on top so I think it's more of an annoyance than a real threat in my games lol
Reason why I've gone through the effort of making a full cav army as a vlandian lord, dealing with the cavalry bastards is far easier now since I can just say no to their cav
yeah this. every fight that i know is going to have enemy horse archers i set up a diagonal line of archers and and some horsemen further back to keep the f*ckers from circling
@@mage0534 Lol if you can't beat em, join em right?
I love playing as khuzait, I run all cav mainly archers but I add in about 40% lancers and cycle charge them as a flank gets exposed.
I charge through with the lancers then have them reset to follow me after the initial charge.
It's 100% faster than just full horse archers
Skein formation is weird. Historically it's purpose was to pierce through a formation with a center loaded force (Traditionally it looked more like an arrow to really get that heavy punch through the enemy.) This would heavily disrupt the opposing formation, divide a group of troops in half, and allow your infantry/cavalry to get behind the enemy and effectively encircle them quickly or harass/target troops the enemy might want to keep protected such as archers or skirmishers.
But in Bannerlord the human aspect of disruption doesn't really apply to the AI since they magically know where to be, and you can already very easily break right through an infantry formation with a cav charge in any formation. Skein seems like a roleplay formation more than a practical one. Especially since equalized alpha damage strikes are the name of the game in Bannerlord, the layered hit one at a time strat just gives the infantry more chances to land a killing blow on the charging cav.
I think you have it spot on - It's more of a RP formation to use. It would be really cool if they could model the human aspect of war and combat in a, but I can't even comprehend how difficult it would be. This reminds of the conversations that sprung up about pikes and how they were a deterrent for horses rather than a deadly stick to stab with, but it's difficult to model horses fear I guess.
I think the physcological factor was part of it too. When you are in a line holding for a charge and you see the highest concentration of horses gathering in a collision course. You may see troops moving out of the contact point to not get trampled instead of valiantly taking the brute force of the charge. Causing a domino of effect of the biggest concentration of cav facing a smaller concentration of troops. But the AI simply doesnt fear death by a 100 horses.
I always thought skein formations was to blitzkrieg to their backline and get their archers or (in some cases) get their leader if they are holding onto a spot. Either way I usually use skein formation for my foot infantry around mountains and such so archers usually have a worse time than shield wall.
Skein historically was for mobility while charging, it allowed the first unit in the arrow head to take command, every other soldier a rank behind would follow the rank front, allowing to make turns while on the charge without clashing. After the initial charge if you want your horseman to engage in melee of course a tighter and uniform formation would be better.
@@emircankose5740 Ah that makes sense, I suppose it's the same logic behind diamond formation and some others use throughout history then? I don't have any experience riding horses so it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's also not an issue in Bannerlord since they just act like bumper cars lol
This guide was both painful and fun to make! I learned so much and I really hope you can too from watching it. It's a bit longer that the usual, but I cut it down from 25 minutes to 20 because breaking it up into 2 videos was not an option. Also, I didn't label anything as a bonus because I felt like 60% of the video would be considered a bonus haha.
If you missed any of the previous 4 episodes in the series, you can find them on the playlist here: th-cam.com/play/PLtLh7oY6l6_-imuXlvZSFiZErbNrG06Ol.html
Looking forward to seeing the javalry in action! (or javcav, whatever you find more appealing).
You showed the same table for Cavalry Line Charge as you did for Cavalry Line Hold.
So I do not mean to sound ungrateful for your time and dedication to this, but I do have to ask, in the Cav vs Melee infantry, why did you not test the compact square formation for infantry? With so many bodies packed together, would they not stop cav that entered the formation by the mid point, thus robbing many cavalry of their momentum?
@@mikhailfilitov1479 Lol I like that, it doesn't take forever to say :) There are a lot of Ls and Rs in Javelin Cavalry which can be tricky to say fast
@@Sprayer-px3tu Yeah that was a mistake, sorry about that. The final recap page is the most accurate one since I was using that and I must have forgotten to adjust the crop
I've never used skein/wedge calvary formations in Mount and Blade or the Total War games because I'm unconvinced the AI is good enough to make them really work. In a real battle there's a big psychological component in using formations like that. It may take a lot of nerve for a line of spearmen to hold when a line of calvary begins charging them but they're all together facing them down. However when the calvary is charging in skein/wedge formation they're pointing at 2 or 3 of the spearman in the frontine and those guys have to watch those charging horses knowing they're going to get hit first. That's not to say they'd turn and run but they're going to side step a little bit and be more willing to give ground and that will allow the calvary to piece the formation.
Yeah that's a tough one to model in a game. There are a bunch of things similar to this that would be nice to have, but I'm not even sure how they would implement it? I agree with you though.
WingfootMcNova use those in Total War games, the formation itself changes about nothing but the ability gives you vertain buffs and debuffs, they can be useful diff from bannerlord since it does not add buffs
Basically when in doubt use either shield wall or square, these formations just work in most situations as long as you do not leave them in advance if the enemy meets your units.
@@Strat-Guides Its easier than than you think actually. Not everything has to "happen" in a game, thats why we have rpg elements to them. When the cavalry using skein formation, they could just ignore enemy infantry's knockback/knockdown resistence completely, and it would express that "one soldier in the front side stepping and giving ground" _just_ perfectly enough.
Can I just say, you have become my go-to guy for bannerlord content. The extensive tests and data. So much work. I learned sooo much from all of your videos. So from the bottom of my bannerlord soul, thank you 🙏
also man shieldwall was surprising
Thank you! I hope I continue to earn that designation :)
I know, I'm embarrassed to say that this was probably the first time in 3k hours of playing that I used shield wall for cavalry. Who knew??
Interesting. One of my favorite tactics with massed cavalry is to give them the Column and Follow Me orders, then lead them around the enemy infantry in a big snake to line up parallel with the enemy archers. Then, giving the charge command while still in column means your cavalry charge the *length* of the archer line and completely avoid infantry!
Ooh nice, I didn't think of that! I use that for horse archers but it could be incredibly potent with melee cav too!!
I do almost the same but cycle forth and back through enemy lines like making an 8 with enemy lines in the middle of this 8. So my cav doesn't stay long enough inside enemy lines to be drawn into close fights but still has its charge bonus and when enemy lines get lose I give the charge command. This keeps casualties low and makes a lot of fun.
I *really* liked the new way you're editing the table of the data. Laid out nice and clean so people can pause to watch, narrated accurately but also having the visual aid of colour coding red and green is great. I've been coming back to these videos heaps because there are so many little gems in them.
Thank you!! I'm glad this format worked although some of the table data was a bit small for my liking so I might change that up for the next video..
These formations and tactics tests are exactly what M&B needed all along.
We fight, but we, apparently (cav skein) don't know if we can perform better.
One can never trust intuition and logic when TaleWorlds Maths is at play lol
Your guides are absolutely lovely, but I must say that I would also love to see some actual gameplay from you where you apply your terrific knowledge in strategy and tactics to dominate as a Calradian Napoleon.
Thank you for watching! I do have a series I just finished recently, but I didn't apply any of these tactics in there since I completed that before starting these tests. I have another campaign that I'm hoping to start before the end of the month, so keep an eye out for that! It will be playing as Amir Timur (Tamerlane) and will be an extremely hard bandit run :)
@@Strat-Guides very cool, thank you for answering! Notifications are active :)
@@TheCillisSst Sweet, I'll do my best to get it out soon!
Here is a basic overview of the ruleset we will be following:
- Start with nothing (no money, weapons, armor, food, nothing)
- Start at war with all kingdoms including minor factions and in jail somewhere
- We aren't allowed to buy supplies from anywhere (peasants, caravans, towns, etc.) until we capture a fief, then we can trade with only our own fiefs.
- We can only convert prisoners, no hiring troops of any kind. Prisoners are limited to troops that cannot be recruited normally, so we can use bandits, mercenaries and minor faction units (also peasants, these are really important actually lol)
- No smithing to sell at any point, all money must be earned from loot, raiding, fiefs, etc.
I've done extensive testing and I finally figured out a way to make it work :D
So I came back to this one while developing some more "unorthodox" tactics during my "establish the vaegir kingdom" RP run-through and stumbled on a gold'y thanks to this vid.
With the pre assumption that the Vaegirs love 2h weapons, archers, and individual combat over formated line fights I was obviously having a bad day to massed vlandian charges that my small number of heavy cav just sucked up so many casualties trying to slow down for me.
So, I stuck a 2-deep line of heavy cav in front of the archer line in shield wall and put a clump of sturgian linebreakers in between the ranks. It was phenomenal. The vlandian charge stopped dead on the front rank of holding cav and then just MELTED when the linebreakers charged. 150 kills, 0 deaths.
Thanks strat, as always your vids are so pivotal to my continued success in this game.
Nice!! I do something similar, but I am going to try it your way because I generally keep my shield wall slighty ahead and get some casualties. I usually stick my cav in shield wall inside the shieldwall formation, but I think your way is more optimal! Thanks for sharing :)
I usually don't comment on TH-cam videos, but your channel is *criminally* underrated! Well done, especially with this battlefield tactics series! You deserve a ton more viewers.
I really appreciate the support! I'm the same way, I prefer to stay on the periphery :) Thank you for the kind words and I will continue to work hard!
Wonderful job. Just an unrealistically large amount of information, for which I am extremely grateful to you. Lots of new things for me.
I'm happy to help :) Once I get done with the unit vs unit testing, I'll make all of the data public for all to access as well in case anyone is curious!
I love how the Skein formation has become a meme on the channel.
Anyway, one of the weird things about cavalry in MnB (both Bannerlord and Warband) is that having your horse killed under you, historically, was a very bad thing. Not only did you lose the Ferrari of the day, but you are also liable to have yourself trapped under your own horse, breaking legs at best or breaking your spine at worst. Assuming of course the rider wasn't able to jump off his horse before that happen.
But of course, in MnB, the horse acts as an extra healthbar. This means that horse archers are just BEEFIER than normal archers, because the former doesn't have a decrease in accuracy. Historically, horse archers would charge within a hundred yards, shoot, and wheel away.
Anyway, just wanted to give my 2 florins. NOW GIVE ME BANDITLORD EPISODE 1, STRAT.
Oddly enough it's best on infnatry vs infantry battles and worst used with cavalry lol makes sense (TW Maths)!
Yeah good point, also there are no injuries to deal with until health goes to 0. It's funny how 1hp troop performs the exact same as 100hp troop, but that might be tough to model in game?
Haha I have to get the recap video for WC done first :) I just started on that last night at the same time I was uploading this one! The work never pauses for a moment, trust me!
@@Strat-Guides you could have your weapon and athletics skill decrease in-battle by .5% for every 1% of health lost. and have perks in athletics that mitigate to maybe a .25% decrease or something?
@@chappy4756 That's a good idea and would probably be easier to implement. Although maybe it would add a lot of processing power to have it tracked for each unit? I'm not really sure, I don't code at all lol But I like the idea. I'm sure people would complain about the damage not being localized (leg hits slow movement, arm hits slow swing speed, etc.)
@@Strat-Guides wasnt stamina a thing in warband? it might simulate some of it at least
Totally agree. They sould add fall damage when the horse is killed (and maybe a chance for the rider to be killed instantly?). That would balance the whole game while being more realistic. If they dont do it maybe a modder will?
Holy crap. You just changed my view of how I use my cav. I thought the same thing you did about the skein, so it's good to see I'm not the only one who thought that. Thanks for the info, man. I have been doing break even work at best, and that makes so much sense now.
This one I think is the most useful to me yet, because I've never been great at using cavalry as effectively as I know they *could* be. The shieldwall and square results are super interesting, and I had no idea the cataphracts could brace their spears like that. Thanks!
Yeah me too! I've integrated a lot of these into my recent play through and it made a huge difference. Actually, one thing that works wonders is to have your infantry in shield wall with cavalry in shield wall right behind them or even inside the infantry formation. Once the enemy cav hits the formation, they all melt away quickly! If they have a lot of cav, you can place horse archers right behind them since they seem to shoot through everything lol
I learned to fear the Menavilaton fairly early on. When you are riding into a line of infantry on horse back, those little bastards are about the only ones able to hit you. And when they do, they do some serious damage.
The amount of testing for this one video alone you sir are a true lord among lords
Thank you for watching! It's a lot of work, but totally worth it I think :)
I appreciate you using different unit types and mixing up the numbers. The sizes of the units can very much change the outcomes of battles even in fairly close engagements.
Yeah that's true. Especially when it comes to cavalry. It's not common to see 100% cav army in the real game.
Before watching I hope Wedge formation performs well because as a Total War and Conqueror's Blade player I just carried that habit over and use my cav to charge in Skein all the time. It just feels and looks right. Although a proper Wedge formation would be really neat.
Edit: man that sucks
I feel your pain. I used skein and line so frequently!
Lmao
I feel same, bamboozled and betrayed. Question is, what if one uses realistic battles mod.
It's not that good in Total War either.
Excellent work! Never would have thought to use shield wall formation. And interesting data on how archers fare better in loose vs the charge than in a tighter formation. I liked the triple ranked charges!
Thank you for watching! Bannerlord certainly has some interesting battles lol I'm not sure how they would translate in IRL battles though :)
@@Strat-Guides Well, attacking in waves is not unheard of, and can be effective. It's been used even in modern warfare.
@@miketrice533 Especially with ranged weapons, too many troops concentrated into one area make for easy targets. There is probably a logistics reason for it too although I don't know that much about it. You bring up a good point!
There's one command missing there, and it's the one I often default to with cavalry: follow. It creates a long column behind you, which you can then use to manually charge the enemy from the flanks. It slaughters troops in line formation, and if you charge from the right infantry can't use their shields effectively.
Against another cavalry unit it helps outmanouvering them. You can attack their weak spots for massive damage or disrupt their formation to prevent their charge from gaining momentum.
It's micromanaging, but you can do it for just 1 or 2 charges and then give the charge command so you can focus on the rest of your troops.
Yeah great point! I will be testing the follow me command when we get to the mixed unit testing :)
I do kind the same, I tend to have a strong cavalry, atm I begin with intercepting enemy cavalry, that done the infantry usually just begun fighting, this allows to charge the back with a wide formation, loads of kills right there, pull back and repeat, basically shock cav tactics, the infantry and archers stay back, and when they engage I relegate command
You are doing a great job, significally improved my gameplay after watching your guides.
I'm really happy to hear that, that's my main goal with the channel :D
It's always very nice to find one of your videos, they are very instructive. now, there are two tests I've missed in this vid:
- charging and then staying (in shield wall maybe) without charging back and forth, it seems to me like a good idea against both cav and archers
- charging archers from the flank. this is very often possible and I actually do it most of the times.
Thank you!
- That's a great point as the strength of shield was vs other cav is the close quarters. I'll have to keep that in mind for the mixed unit testing.
- So anything from the flank is great for minimizing casualties, since they will be focused in a different direction. My biggest concern there is compared to hitting directly on, the casualties inflicted are a bit less, so there is a tradeoff. I'm not sure which one would win, but it's definitely worth a test! I'll give it a shot when I get a chance this week :D
I learn something I didn't expect on every one of these. Nice work.
Nice, that's my goal!! I learned a lot myself, especially this guide in particular. My cav utilization was quite bad!
Was waiting for this one, cheers for the quality uploads!
Thank you for watching!!
I’m currently doing a all cav/ horse archer play through
Your vids have definitely helped
Alotta good stuff in here! Definitely applying it on the battlefield
My beautiful Vlandian Cavalry thank you sir! Gone are the days of the Skein, All hail the impenetrable square!
Haha down with Skein! I wish we could remove it from the formations so I didn't accidentally keep using it out of habit :P
please test relative effectiveness of using the move command to put "Line" formation calv on top of the archer formation. Without cycle charging the archers go into melee mode and don't get to shoot the retreating calv in the back.
That's a good idea, I forgot to test just moving the formation on top of the other. I'll test it on the side today and try to get back to you on it.
This is mesmerizing. Thank you for your hard work! I was always sitting scratching my head if I should use any fancy formations :)
Welp i guess i wont be using skein formation anymore, simply fascinating testing !!! Well done sir !!! One thing id like to see (probably gonna have to be a mod) is the ability for the player to use cavalry in a siege battle. Id love to be able to sally out from a secondary gate to cycle charge the attackers/break the siege equipement and then fall back behind the walls. Altho id imagine that would be some major work (AI pathing, increase of siege map size, bigger spawn area and making sure units dont spawn on roofs and i could go on).
Now for the mounted archers/skirmishers, thats gonna be a good one (they all are really)
I know, I will probably still use skein from time to time just based on pure habit lol I'll have to retrain my brain :)
100% agree, that would be such an amazing thing to see. I think there are many cases where a sally out would be appropriate, but lack of mobility makes it less-so.
I'm excited to test the ranged cav as I have a few ideas that I want to test out that might change the way I build my army!
Message received, from now on my melee cav will be known as the great and terrible CUBE OF STEEL! XD
Haha perfect! I never thought I would recommend square or shield wall for cavalry, but here we are!
@@Strat-Guides Never would I have thought either to follow such advice, but the numbers are undeniable. :D (and everything in me is adversed against using Shieldwall with cav *shudders*, so luckily I have an alternative. XD)
The hardest part for me is un-learning the muscle memory of using skein with cav. It's not easy!!
I found these tips to be the best ones i have gotten, thank you :)
i started yesterday watching your videos.... with this one i achived 100% of your channel lmao, i would love to see a money making guide, thats where i strugle the most, thanks for all the info dude
its pretty insane i watched all of them in fucking 2 days,it seems i really like being informed on what i do on a game lol
Lol nice, I wish there was a steam unlock for that :D Come to think of it, Bannerlord needs some unlocks to collect!
Okay got it, I do have that one on my list. The easiest answer is smithing, but for some that's a bit too easy to cheesy. Outside of smithing, it's tough until you get a town or two. It's like a vicious cycle - you need to be in combat all the time to make enough money to afford your army, but you need a big army to be able to win in combat, which means... it repeats over and over lol
@@Strat-Guides exactly, thats what i strugle with because i hate smithing lol, it feels like a must in a build and have to spend skill points that could be used somewhere else. thanks for the fast reply. cheers :)
@@NachoDasso Yeah I know exactly what you mean. I don't really use smithing anymore because it makes the game a bit boring. Struggling some keeps things interesting :)
I think you just have to use a combination of things: workshops, battle loot sales, prisoner sales, etc. to make enough until you get some fiefs that spit off cash. No problem!
Thanks man, I literally searched your videos for this yesterday lol
Nice, perfect timing!! Next week will be ranged cavalry, but not sure which day I'll have it finished by. I'm working on the recap episode for the WC series for the next couple of days.
Something I am fond of doing is to use elite heavy cavalry in an anti-infantry role. Not so good in real fights but a few expensive horsemen are a very satisfying way of dealing with looters.
I usually use skein for cavs and circle for horse archers, but these results are shocking. I have to change things up now lol. Great video as always.
I know what you mean, it's going to be hard for me to unlearn the muscle memory and habits lol Thank you for watching!!
@@Strat-Guides ❤
@@ruoante7660
I never knew spreadsheets could be so sexy, but that's the power of Bannerlord.
Your findings about shield wall are quite interesting, as they are historically accurate. When on the defensive, irl cavalry would cluster as close as possible.
just wanted to comment that I love the content! Love the effort you put into these vids, it really shows. Keep up the work, and hope to see more from you!
Thank you for the words of encouragement! I appreciate it :D
This guy is a Bannerlord philosopher
I use full Calvary. Currently 130 melee calvary and 118 horse archers. I take on armies 4 times my size and lose about 5 men. When a war breaks out I immediately go into enemy lines and attack any lord I find stopping them from making strong armies. At the start of a war between Western empire and batannia had captured over 30 lords right after the war started. Hear the end of that war 4 armies of 430-460 marched into my territory (at this time I had around 130 men) I crushed all of them as my men were experienced with while theirs were mostly just recruited. My calvary have wiped out the northern empire, southern empire, vlandia, and batannia.
i think the reason why shield wall, square, and circle formations produce good results for melee engagements of most troop types is that the AI holds their shield up constantly in these formations.
a line charge has the AI spending more time swinging their swords than holding up their shields, so they get hit more often which makes the soldier go down quicker. a shield wall charge has the AI spending more time holding up their shields and a little less time swinging their swords, so the shield absorbs much more damage and the soldier can fight for longer. the best offense is a good defense, so to speak.
Yeah that's true, it's almost impossible to get around a shield in this game. I should put it on regular speed and just watch up close to see what's really going on. Great analysis though, I think you're probably right :)
@@Strat-Guides Why don't you put the Legionaire into shield wall?
@@SocuteRaptor I tried a couple different formations that didn't make it into the video, but in my experience they don't really do well unless they are given the charge command, regardless of the formation. I'll have to double check my database to see if I specifically ran that one, maybe it would help!
@@Strat-Guides I played this game like a year ago, back then, there is no pike brace, so the best way to counter an AI cavalry charge is to move my own cavalry in front to body block them. But early game without cavalry, shield wall is a must. There is no other choice.
@@SocuteRaptor Yeah it's tough to counter cavalry without your own cav. Even spear brace is not very reliable because it only works when they charge directly into them. Otherwise the pikes are totally useless lol. It seems like shock troops are the best counter for foot vs cav so far.
i think where skein shines is by making it easier for the rest of your cav to get thru the enemy line and not get bogged up, keeping the momentum going so they can run somewhere else, which can arguably be more important, especially if you start with a skein with an initial charge not expecting much damage with that, but then following about 30-50 yards behind with a line of cavalry to ensure maximum coverage of the enemy line. start on your side with the line of cav infront of you and the chevron infront of that (conversely you can lead the charge at the head of the chevron with the line behind it all). order the chevron to advance get ready to set the cav line behind to advance. advance. when the chevron is about at the right distance tell it to charge. then tell the line to charge. this can be followed up with other dedicated cavalry lines to charge or having a light cavalry pick off individual troops or to have your infantry rush in in whatever particular fashion you like. another chevron and line tactic that works (with the same setup, just maybe a slightly longer delay) is to do a hammer and anvil cavalry attack. get the chevron to go thru the enemy, then get the line to charge and then get the chevron to charge again after its ready.
That's a good point! I just wish the TW Physics wasn't so janky lol
@@Strat-Guides do you do videos on multifaceted tactical strategies? ive seen some other vids on yours and i like seeing when you combine formations and movements to properly utilize a formation or tactic
@@elijahoconnell So I have 2 more big topics on my list before I start making EU4 and HOI4 content - how to make/manage a kingdom and finishing off the tactics series. For the tactics series I'm going to be covering how to fight with a full army and testing many of the tactics discovered in these individual unit guides and some of them are pretty micro-intensive and complex!
Thanks for another terrific video. Your Bannerlord content is really top shelf.
thank you, I appreciate that!!
Just found these videos. Super informative thank you for doing this!
I saw someone mentioning how cavalry back in the day would use a diamond formation for attacks, I would bet what makes the circle formation plus charge work is exactly why diamond was used. Initial wave lands, then the back half as well, giving a layered strike doubling your troop concentration in the middle formations of the opponent.
That's a good point - all that weight pushing through a thin line at a single point, no way the formation holds!
@@Strat-Guides exactly! I would bet manually controlling the formation to strike then rotate out and then back for another strike would be pretty clean. Maybe. I saw this at work, so I can't wait to get home and test it 😂😂
Shield wall on cavalry certainly has its uses in normal battles as well. You can use cavalry and horse archers as mobile infantry/archer combos to ride out to a flank, put your horses in shield wall in front of your horse archers, then just treat them as a normal foot soldier army that can retreat quickly if need be.
Legionaries don't do well against cavalry. Despite having a short polearm, they seem to hate using it regardless of circumstance. I wish they would just give them normal javelins tbh. Other cultures like battania have an abundance of polearms on their troops, yielding much better results against pesky cavalry groups.
That's a solid idea. I wonder if the horse archers can fire through the shield wall too since they are cav? Those HA are cheaters lol
Yeah I noticed that, they rarely pull the Pilum out. It's a shame cause it does decent damage.
you just need to keep your infantry on shield wall so they don't get hit hard by the charge at all or 1 shot by couch lance. legionaries will throw their polearms and they only have 1. so if you hold fire they might pull it out and stab the cavs with it. the darkhans are in the same weird position but they have better throwing spears that do more dmg and are longer.
@@storm0fnova Oddly enough, in all the testing I did there wasn't a single Pilum that was thrown! I'm wondering if they changed the AI recently because I'm pretty sure I remember they doing that previously.
@@Strat-Guides yeah i think they made the ai not throw their last throwable or something like that. which is odd since legionaries and darkkhans only have the 1. i remember all the testing i did last year they threw their spears and if you time the volley right before the charge you see a nice span of greens. but it was months ago any things change too much.
@@storm0fnova Yeah I think they tweaked the AI at some point because I remember it being good with throwing weapons, then terrible. Now in today's patch it seems they fixed it again lol so here's to hoping!
I’ve been waiting for this video from you! Now my knightly order can be better.
Haha yes, let the hooves shaking the ground drive fear into your enemy! :D
once again, a really cool and apreciated video. Thanks man!
No problem, thank you for watching! I really appreciate all the support from everyone :)
Thats some surprising results. I pretty much exclusively used Skein as well.
The hardest part will be to untrain my brain lol I'm sure I will still instinctively use skein from time to time :P
@@Strat-Guides Haha you and me both man 😅
Good work on this vid Strat
Thank you!! This one was a bit tough as I wasn't expecting it to take this long to do. I think it was worth it though as melee cav was certainly my weakest area in bannerlord.
Nice. I usually have equally distributed footmen/archers and cav. I use the cav to run behind the enemy while the infantry charges and the archers advance. When the battle commences, inf takes its toll archers holding ground behind and cav cirle charge withdraw charge.
Do you typically target enemy archers with the cav?
@@Strat-Guides usually both archers and inf
@@dlab1978 I used to avoid infantry personally, but from these tests it seems as long as they don't have a lot of shock troops or braced inf then it's a really good trade to make!
somewhat unrelated to this video: when using a shield wall to stop enemy army for other units (specially archers) to flank, i usually *make shield wall fall back 10 steps while simultaneously telling my flanks to advance to position because aggro is already off them*. This halves the time needed to get them in position. As a bonus, i call melee cavalry back and forth for big charges in a way that doesnt trap the enemy to diminish our casualties and so working the enemy army's morale down while leaving them room to flee and get shot in the back
I chose to play with banner knights only on my main character, and I notice that even though, skein formation is for cavalry, its performance is quite poor. Your video helps a lot. Thank you!
You're using the 2nd worst cavalry, be careful with it.
@@DestroyerOfOgis if I am not mistaken Vlandian Cavalry is known for its charge dmg?
@@Cozonac3000 Known for being on par with Battanian cavalry.
@@DestroyerOfOgis i did not played with other cavalry apart from the aserai and the sturgian ones. I am still a new player, but I find vlandian cavalry better and also because I like knights in general.
@@Cozonac3000 Oh. I will inform you that the Sturgian Druzhinnik Champion is the best tested cavalry.
I've had some Positive results with Column + Charge against enemy infantry. Cavalry punches through the enemy line and leaves a nice hole for my Infantry to Exploit.
So I tried column with the cavalry but I couldn't get it to work :( I suspect it's because I was trying with 500 haha I think the AI would have a much easier time with 50 - 100. I'll have to try it again with smaller numbers, thanks for the heads up!
@@Strat-Guides Possibly, also try splitting the force into one column to punch the hole and then a Skein behind it.
What about using column formation to charge along the archer line?
@@christianmunkjensen8817 So I tried column, but my cav got stuck in a giant circular ball lol I only have 10 - 15 following me and the rest were goofing off. I think if I did it again with less than 500 cav it might work :) I think it's a good idea though, more surface area for the charge.
I like using two separate cav formations, both spread out and stacked about 5 units deep and width changes depending on how many I have on hand but at least 10
I've been looking forward to this
Hopefully it's helpful!
This video was really good. I always made my cavalry go to skein. Won't do it again.
Gonna check move of your videos!
Thank you for watching! Hopefully the other videos are useful as well :D
this was so intriguing to watch even though I'm a player that just presses F6 at the start of each battle and goes ham on the enemy with a two handed axe
Lol nice, well at least you know why the AI does so poorly now then :) I know what you mean, it's so easy to get sucked into a battle!
Normally what I do albeit convoluted, I split my cavalry into two equal units, especially if I am playing defensive or am outnumbered. I split them into flanks on either side of the advancing enemy. I have my infantry in the middle and ranged behind them and their shield wall. As they approach my cavalry slams into the sides drawing the outlying soldiers attention , my infantry holds the line and archers pick them off through the chaos.
Iam level 6 clan tier so my regular party is around 200-220 and I have around even splits between Calvary Archers and Infantry. Sometimes I skimp on the infantry depending on the faction I face, I go with more archers versus heavy horse factions like the Aserai. An abundance of archers usually makes mincemeat out of them lol.
Haven’t lost yet despite being outnumbered 3 to 1 at some points.
(Edit)
I also play as Vlandia so my crossbowmen are high level and my Knights are pretty formidable. I usually recruit sturgian infantry though because their heavy armor seems to hold up better in line clashes.
Skein, you were the chosen one
I disagree because horses are powerful but it’s not a car.it would be simply unfair if you could trot through formations.There’s two possible compromises though.We could have it to where when you hit an infantry unit you lose all your speed and A knock them prone B deal more damage.
Haha I should have brought back the star wars scene again, but I just used it in the archer video. That's a good one though!!
Yeah charge damage is so weak in game. It would take being trampled 25 times or so do down someone, which seems absurd lol I'm pretty sure the human body can't handle 24 charges and still survive only to die on the 25th :)
I think having them mow a whole line down would also be unrealistic, but I do think they should do more damage for at least the first 1 or 2 infantry they come into contact with. 2 - 4 damage is less than the looters stones and frankly I would rather get pelted by a rock than run into by a horse at full speed :D
@@Strat-Guides they should do more trample damage, but at the cost of slowing down, like irl - cav literally bogging down in deep inf formations where they are hopeless and surrounded. In summary - devaststing first impact plus uber morale damage even before the connection, after it massive slowdown where they are dead if enemy endured or without their own inf
From my test Cavalry with shield wall and charge command is best and it seems from your test, square seems solid as well. The reason is they are less likely to get killed by archers, skirmishers or horse skirmishers/archers on the battlefield due to having the shield up most of the time protecting from projectiles. Also as in case of infantry having your troops with their shield up increases their combat skills somehow blocking more and being less likely to get hit which means less casualties.
100% agree here! It also seems they do better in melee combat as well since the AI tends to swing aimlessly so having a shield up most of the time helps them out a lot.
In Multiplayer 'Captain Battle Mode' you would do well as cavalry to utilize F1 - F5 'Retreat' order.
You move the cavalry where you want them to attack first, then begin the engagement by 'Retreating', keeping the men tight, and they can melee intercept the enemy on their own very well.
They will play a defensive game intelligibly while wandering away from the main battle.
If your cavalry is fighting scattered infantry, use F1-F4 'Advance' order to melee the scattered enemy infantry. Aggressively
If your cavalry is fighting enemy cavalry, use F1-F5 'Retreat' order to pull their cavalry away from the main battle. Defensively
Their cavalry will be at a disadvantage against your 'Retreating' melee cavalry, under most conditions.
Interesting info, I'm going to have to give that a go in single player! So with the retreat command in MP, they don't actually leave the battlefield then I assume? I single player they will if you let them go long enough.
@@Strat-Guides That's the best part: They will back away from the main battle. The enemy cav commander doesn't know what is happening. He allows his cavalry to follow yours. Your cavalry rides up onto the mountain side on the edge of the map. They cannot pass through the map edge but linger on the slopes. The enemy cavalry will be baited onto these slopes. If their cavalry is heavier and slower, or your cavalry is lighter and faster turning, then you will beat theirs. It takes a while for the enemy commander to realize the situation and fall back. Khuzait light cavalry naturally has superior turning and melee fighting so they do the best in this tactic, swirling alongside the map edges.
@@Strat-Guides Also your channel is very cool, I found your channel looking for the types of M.P. 'Captain Battle' Pro Tips like what I had previously commented. Your channel isn't quite tailored to 'Captain Battle' mode, understandably, but it's full of golden nuggets!
@@truthseeker-heyoka That's fascinating stuff! I appreciate you sharing it. Good point about Khuzait, their horses always annoyed me because they were so slow but they are very maneuverable...
@@truthseeker-heyoka Sadly I have not tried MP out yet as I have had to stay on the Beta branch for all of the guides. But soon I'll be done with the majority of them and will probably load up a bunch of mods and try some MP. I appreciate you watching and glad to hear there is still some info to be had from them :)
it's important to note that imperial cataphracts have 2h polearms which means on shield wall they can't use their spears. while all other cavalry with 1h spear can still use spear and have couchlance during shield wall. the shield wall charge is a lot better offensively with other faction cavalries.
Also never really got into using Skien might as well call it slein cause it's a dead formation i never use.
defensively the shields walls allow cavalry to be much more durable as their shields absorb a lot of the attacks, while not slowing them down like infantry. but offensively you want to have as much contact area as possible during charge (as shown by your 3 line method being most effective, 2 rows per line enough, u don't want more rows of cavalry per line of charge or they just run into the horse in front of them and come to a dead stop). the longer the line the better the result due to more points of contact (wrapping around the flank). the cavalry ai tends to bunch up and run into each other coming to dead stops. a while ago i ran some tests using tier 4 imperial cavs vs tier 6 fians. just checked the initial charge. did everything between narrow column to 2 row super long shield wall and found the latter offered the best result. of course from your testing i can tell if i split them into multiple lines and cycle charge it would be better still.
another trick is i just run my cavalry through enemy formation. without issuing any command. this way i found they stay in formation the best and half way through the move, i tell them to turn and face the enemy once they get to the other side so they are immediately ready for another round.
Yeah that's a great point about the shields. I did some extra testing afterwards and couch lance didn't seem to have a big impact on cavalry vs cavalry charges, only if one side was holding ground and even then it was a tiny difference. There was a huge difference with couch lancing vs infantry though!
Agreed, spreading them out seems to be optimal compared to a tight bunch that doesn't cover the enemy line.
That's a good idea, you could issue the move order well past the line to avoid them getting hung up but they will still charge once they get close to the enemy without needing to give the command. I'll have to try that one out!
@@Strat-Guides with my experience it's interesting that in cavalry vs cavalry they don't use the spears much if at all. i had a group on shield wall and the imperial cataphracts got as many kills as the other noble cavs that had the spear vs horse archers. i think it's due to the horse rider ai only able to aim their couchlance low. which results in like 60% misses, 30% hitting the horse, and once in a blue moon they'd hit a horseman in the leg/foot. might just be anecdotal evidence but i think pretty much every time i got downed by a lance it's in the leg
@@storm0fnova True, the only time I notice they use it is when I see a horse rear up but it's pretty rare. I'm wondering if it's certain formations that let them use it but not others? I should pay closer attention to that. Yeah the AI aim with couch lance is odd, I noticed that as well.
Why do I like your content so much?
I'm not entirely sure, but I'm also quite happy about it :D
This was great though I would have liked to have seen details on what troop types were being used. "Cavalry" is a bit nebulous. You did mention Legionaries and Menavliaton (though not whether they were regular or Elite Menavliaton) but I'd be curious to see whether there was a significant difference in results when pitting a given cavalry force against Fian Champions as opposed to some other kind of archers. Having said that, I do understand the video was less about specific troop types and more about effective formations. Still, having that information would be of benefit, I think.
P.S. Watch for the misspelling of "slein" instead of "skein" in the heading overlays.
Oh sorry, the unit info was in the data presented after most of the tests, although towards the end of the video I don't think I used them so great point, I should have added that in! I used all T5 units, so Cataphract for the cav, legionary and menavlion for infantry and Paletine archers.
I have already started doing some of the work for unit vs unit testing, which I think will answer a lot of the questions you might have :)
Yeah a couple people mentioned that haha It would have been more appropriate to misspell it as slain, but alas it was a typo that I missed in my final review of the editing.
Love the videos man keep up the good work
Skein and line formations are best used to drive through a hole in a formation such as circle or break up a line and then following up with infantry to enable an envelopment of the broken lines flanks.
That's a good point, the charge itself might not be the most damaging but if it disrupts the infantry line it could result in higher KDR overall. I'll have to test that out!
@@Strat-Guides The key to taking out units faster is to hit units rather than their sheilds. If you step into units you make more contact with the unit itself. If charging with an animal your horse blocks attacks easier. If you are moving forward it is harder for the enemy to hit you as the weapon attacks are blunted... attacks do more damage if they are fully deployed. and they do more damage if they hit while advancing at the end of the attack type depending on attack type. Get a first strike also can stun your enemy giving you an advantage on attack, so getting a first strike gives you an operational advantage. If I want to take a position I use advance, while if I am about to reach a unit in melee combat I will change to attack by ordering a charge on the nearest enemies .. maneuvering can be done with advance as it simply moves the units forward to a position. Charge has the units pick an attack point and advance to them. Advance prioritizes movement to a point while charge initiates an attack. Units that do well on advance likely are sheild units with counter attack ability they likely are better at eating the intial attack they are engaged to.
@@WilliamAshleyOnline I've noticed that as well regarding advance - the shields seem to make up for the lack of aggression.
Also, I wonder if ordering cavalry to run through the enemy would help at all rather than charging? Maybe clicking on a mountain behind the enemy, possibly getting them in and out the back before they get stuck.
I really hope Taleworlds watches videos like these.
One can hope!!! :)
The best way to use skein is to hit the infantry flanks at an angle with two groups. Hit archers stright from the sides, on their flanks, and move the calvary all the way down their line. I can take 50 cav and kill 200 archers with a handful of losses.
This is an infantry thing but its a tech I use against lower tier units to mine. I tell my infantrh to go to a position that is either directly on the enemy inf or slightly past them. My inf run and muscle their way through and I give the charge order. Lets my archers pelt the "from behind" as the enemy inf is forcer to turn to fight without ever really having to move the archers as much.
That's an interesting idea, no need to wait for a flank that way :D
Whoa, I knew Mena's were scary but didn't realize they could catch horses after their charge.
This likely changes a lot with cav that can couch vs. not as the catapharacts are primarily built around getting "stuck".
What's interesting is that historically, I believe the wedge formation WAS pretty tight knit unlike the ones in the game, not to mention the addition of physics would bend the formation quite significantly. I never really understood skein as particularly effective use of the physics system tbh.
So I also tested with Bannerknights afterwards just to make sure things were still relevant and the biggest difference was Banner Knight vs foot troops. The couch lance seems to have issues against enemy cavalry, especially when they are moving. With cataphracts 100 vs 100 it took 5 charges to disperse archers on hold fire but only 3 charges with Banner knights. Fortunately, the AI still acts the same regardless of which unit is being ordered, so the tests are still relevant, but the time to kill will be much shorter for cav vs foot troops when there is enough room to properly cycle charge.
@@Strat-Guides Neat!
Nice! Awesome work.
All I gotta say is these tests really really make me want MnB co op and versus at the scale we see in the game!
@@saugatmanandhar6473 You have no idea how excited I would be if they release co-op or even PvP using large armies! I would probably pee my pants a wee bit tbh lol
Solid video man!
To me cavalry is best used for nobles hunting. It goes like this:
-get party size 100-200
-party is entirely on horses. Can be cheap to reduce costs. What matters is speed on the map and battlefield.
-plunder enemy villages, and wait for enemy nobles to arrive
-once a noble is nearby, pause plundering, and chase him down
-nobles on lone patrol usually have cheap troops. But the sheer speed advantage allows to smash even veteran troops, so the battle is easy when manually commanded. Charge, retreat, charge, retreat.
-execute enemy noble
-rinse and repeat until entire kingdom falls. When you start meet mostly female nobles in battle, it means you're around halfway through with the kingdom.
Also If I play as Empire, I don't execute imperial lords, unless they piss me off by besieging my cities.
Another note is to NOT become a faction leader, as almost everyone will hate you. You can rule from the backseat with tons of influence anyway, and you can always orginise "an accident" that kills your ruler. Personally, I only bother with becoming a leader after already having conquered the world.
I found hilarious that during the menavlion testing one of the menavlions mounted one of the horses.
Lol that cheeky guy :) "I'ma get up out of here now..."
I knew I wasn’t crazy using shield wall on Calvary.
Lol how did you even think to try it the first time?? I have about 3k hours and it never occurred to me :P
@@Strat-Guides my logic was that I didn’t want enemy archers taking out my horsemen in a charge. Also since normal soldiers perform better with shield wall.
@@stabbystab8363 Yeah that's a good reason. I just figured it would limit their combat ability since they might hit each other and stop the attacks, but that doesn't seem to be the case!
I suggest you get the title of Spirit of the Law of Bannerlord! So nice!
Lol yeah! SoTL is the GOAT :)
Great and helpful video!
Do these tips apply to horse archers as well, though?
Thank you! It's a bit late now, but I finally got back from my break and released the horse archer tactics guide yesterday and if you check the bonus section (time stamps in the description so you can skip the other stuff) I show that it's possible with regular cav and javelin cav quite easily :)
@@Strat-Guides That's great! No worries. :) I will check it out later when I can!
Great vid. I would really like to know how the cavalry weapons and horses effect their fighting. Lance length? One handed verse polearm? Small steppe horses verse larger destriers?
In my experience, cav are better when using one handed against cav or inf that are tight, like where your cav get stuck into the enemy lines and cant really cycle charge or get some distance. But, in longer battles where reinforcements come through, and troops are more widely spread, lances and spears are great for picking off exposed troops. Having smaller horses closer to the ground also make polearms kills against foot troops easier i think. And what about charge damage? Just some ideas bro :)
These are all excellent questions and I just don't have a good answer to any of them (I have some ideas, but without data they would be unfounded).
In the very near future, I'll be doing unit vs unit testing and I think I should have a much better idea at that point.
Those are very good points. I'm sure the charge damage adds up over time. Most AI won't 1-hit kill, so if they get bumped for 4 damage 5 or 6 times, that might be enough to take time to kill from 3 hits down to 2 or 2 to 1 and so on so it probably does make a difference.
@@Strat-Guides god bless you brother, this is some real impressive dedication
I made a khuzait warrior for starting a campaign, just invested on horse archers only. A few months after, i got myself 140 khan's guard horse archers, i can intercept any army, and eradicate foot soldiers without taking any losses
Yeah I really struggled to find a good counter to the Khan's guards. I'm just thankful the AI doesn't deploy them en masse lol!
@@Strat-Guides i mean it's litterally how gengis khan conquered 3/4th of the known world isn't it
@@jeanladoire4141 Good point... lol
I've never understood why people get so happy over skein formation so glad this video shows how bad it is.
Some of these I draw the line with powergaming because I know I would feel very silly having my cavalry stand and receive a charge straight on just because it works better.
Also, the thing about Skein is that it's a formation designed to break through a line, and since bannerlord's physics and mass model allows horses to go through formations easily by default, there's literally no advantage in using it. Ironically it may be more useful when used by infantry, being told to go through a formation to make an opening.
Very good video, as always. I wonder why you didn't test engaging from the flank going to the other flank. Instead of a front charge, make a side charge. It seems to work quite good in my playthroughs
Yeah that's a good point, to be honest I just forgot about it. I already had about 30 minutes of stuff to show in the guide and I chopped it down to 20 minutes because it was just too long. I may do a short follow up video testing a few more things because there are a couple other things that people brought up as well that should have been tested. It's just a big topic and I think I didn't do it enough justice!
One big caveat here is that you're using cav that do not use spear brace. Cataphracts are great due to their high damage and armor but they have one huge weakness in their inability to spear brace and no shield while using a spear. Charging a cav formation that uses spear brace produces insane results. I keep my cataphracts in one formation and my spear brace cav units in another. The spear brace formation charges first followed by the cataphracts for close fighting.
That's a great point and I did run some tests after publishing this using Banner Knights and I found that cav vs cav the results are pretty much the same as in the video, but quite a bit different for cav vs infantry. The brace works best against static targets or one's on the ground. In the 100 vs 100 testing, instead of 5 charge cycles, the Bannerknights did it in 3, so that's a massive difference! However, only the front row braces from what I could tell, so it relies on a long enemy line.
@@Strat-Guides Cool! Spear brace charge into an archer formation (no sheilds) feels like committing a war crime. Especially if you loop around and hit them from the back. Great work as always!
Lol yeah it does feel a bit dirty... But that's the price you pay for not protecting those precious archers :)
Вы также можете спешивать всадников, используя их лошадей как живой щит. Возможно, вам понравится выстраивать спешенных banner knights в круг, оставляя пустое пространство внутри круга заполненным лошадьми (лошади не сбегут из замкнутого круга).
Very interesting video again. I am so happy I found your channel.
Some things I am curious about and didn't see in the video:
Did you consider charging the archer line from the side and not the front? Especially when it's a very long line. I would imagine that should provide the best result as in real life flanking is really important compared to frontal attack but I could be completely wrong in the world of Bannerlord.
For the Legionary tests 2 questions:
1. Why not use the shield wall. It would seem the best formation to be able to hold against cavalry.
2. Did the legionaries have fire at will command or where they only on melee mode?
All this has done is reinforce my preference for cataphriacs and albertrist, I probably spelt both wrong, as you shown, cataphriacs have a in built counter to calvary in the on foot brace ability, as for albertrist, or heavy shield crossbow men, being able to shield wall in tough situations and switch to melee is a great counter to archer weaknesses
My men will never waiver!
As always thanks for another amazing guide! Whats the best offensive tactic vs other cavalry?
Thanks for watching! For offense, I would stick with square charge or shield wall charge. I need to test it out, but it might be even better to go shield wall, ride up to the enemy and stop just before reaching them and hold position, hopefully baiting them in :) Or you can aggro them with your main character and set you cav in shield wall nearby, bait them in there too. I have a few ideas that I'm still working on :)
"Cowardly archers", harsh words from a soldier riding a 300 kilo armored beast - A Battanian Noble, possibly.
Hahaha good point! The classic French vs English topic :D
>Best use of cavalry
>Starionary line of shield wall
>Worst use of cavalry
>Skein charge into enemy
One job. You had one job, TaleWorld
And this video comes particularly jarring, given for last couple dayis I'm replaying "With Fire and Sword" (and as a gun-shy Crimea, no less), which operates on Warband mechanics with few tweaks. And it's just mind-numbing how in 2010 they managed to make solid game where cavalry charge works like a cavalry charge, pike wall works like a pike wall and units have both proper reach, counter and physical presence on the battlefield, but can't pull the same thing in 2020 (or ever since).
Hell, even disorganised, automated frontal charge seems to work better by itself, and things get really awful once one side uses proper formations to counter whatever is trying to attack them. Bannerlord? Nope, sorry, it's fucked, hope you like having a spreadsheet of counter-intuitive formations in front of you during each prep phase for a battle.
It also crushes my original dream of someone re-making WF&S on Bannerlord (which is all I really cared, tbf), since the battle mechanics are laughably awful when compared.
Yeah and I don't think this is something they can "hotfix" with a patch either, it's probably a large portion of their code. I'm not sure if this was intended or not, but I would love to hear from the devs on it!
@@Strat-Guides I think - but that's pure speculation - the initial goal was to "shake things up". And they shaken them so much, third of the game stopped working properly as a result. But since it's so ingrained into the gameplay at this point and since Bannerlord is already almost 5 years overdue (time flies under covid especially fast), all they can do is plaster the holes and smile while doing so, because changing the battle mechanics at this point is near impossible.
If I can ask something - did you consider doing "small" comparisons for a change, or you don't think it would affect things?
To elaborate: Warband was capped at 144 (145?) units at once to be taking part in the battle. Do you think smaller scale of battles could affect things, or it would remain unchanged in Bannerlord? Since it sometimes feels like the big problem is how much bigger the armies are and how this creates weird outcomes (like simply being swarmed over, because your 80 elites stand virtually no chance over their 400 peasants)
@@Myrth1 It's a good question - so the main reason I chose to do the testing at the higher numbers is to smooth out the data. For example, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a 10 vs 10 to end in a completely lopsided win based purely on luck. You only need 2 or 3 units to get lucky hits, turning the battle into a 8 vs 10 which snowballs into a total victory. However, the odds of 100 units getting luck and turning into a snowball win is extremely unlikely, which means the numbers from 500 unit battles will be more "stable" than for smaller ones. However, the units may act different in massive pack of 500 compared to a more realistic size of 100 - 300. Once we get into the mixed unit testing, we will be forced to use smaller group sizes so we will see then!
@@Strat-Guides I'm mostly asking about size around 100-150, rather than a literal handful of soldiers. And the reason is that your own outfit is going to be 100-150 soldiers strong and rest being just armies you command/are inside. So while I do get the statistical approach with bigger sample giving more stable results, this leaves it open to the speculation that the AI might behave differently at smaller soldier number, say, 100 guys.
@@Myrth1 That's a good point, I will try to pay closer attention to the AI with different sized of units. I had not considered that before.
Hey pretty helpful data, since I'm one of those skein formation users, haha. But to be fair, if the skein would be a bit more pointed and the flanks would be a bit more towards the center I think it's a better skein.
Quick question: Is it an idea to run behind the enemy lines and call for "follow me"? Or is the AI too passive while in that command? My thought would just be that they try to pile up more since they are riding towards one goal, which is you. Idk but it'd be interesting to see in a test :-)
Yeah follow me works pretty well. I find that giving manual move commands works best (giving a move commands that goes through the enemy formation you want to charge), then follow me, then charge command last.
@@Strat-Guides awesome!
Cavalry only campaign.... I'm thinking of doing it 🤔🤨
You'll never have to worry about movement speed again :D Taking a fief sounds like a pain though lol might want to level up tactics and auto resolve it!
I love putting them in skien and have them follow me while we route enemy cav (usually the AI has them in two groups to the side of their main units) or make a couple passes from the side or flank while simultaneously advancing my infantry. Once they are seconds from clashing into enemy lines THEN Ill order my cav to charge.
Yeah that's a great point - I'm not a fan of sending cav early on, but once the infantry lines are together it seems to be much safer for cavalry to roam.
Oof, i just started playing this game, and prior to now had said "well obviously i should put my horses in skein" and hadnt worried about it.
I recently did an update to all the tactics guides, although cavalry is mostly unchanged and skein is still bad for cavalry lol
@@Strat-Guides i actually already had watched that and ended up here. Very helpful, shield wall for horses and skein for infantry with the charge issued right as they are connecting has been a game changer.
Splits up cav into multiple groups
“My powers have doubled since the last time we met Kuhzait”
Lol down with those pesky horse archers!!
hey thanks for your amazing bannerlord guides! there is so much effort in there! just one quick question: how do i tell only some of my cavalry to dismount?
Thanks! I'm glad to hear they are helpful :)
So make sure you have your cavalry selected and press F5. If you want to have them mount back on the horse, just press F5 again. I find this very helpful when having my cav outnumbered and trying to save them. They tend to live longer dismounted and using the spear brace function!
@@Strat-Guides thanks for the quick response! the dismount command is hard to miss, but in the video you showed that dismounting a small fraction of your cavalry and leaving the rest on their horses showed improved results in cav vs cav battle. now i dont know how to dismount only a small part of my cav? wouldnt they either all dismount or mount up?
@@Freakatwar Oooh I gotcha, yeah you can do that if you have the time to micromanage it. What you need to do is select your cav group an press F3 then F5, then select and empty box to move some troops over. Let's say you have a group of 100 Cav, maybe you can move 20 - 25 over and leave the rest. Then you select the new group you just made (whatever empty box you selected) and then press F5 to dismount only those ones. No problem, I'm happy to help!
Super interesting information
Thank you for watching!