Pros and Cons of Building with ICF. One year later in our ICF house!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- John and Leslie have been in their ICF house now for one year and are ready to share all of the pros and cons of building with ICF. Hear their favorite things about living in an ICF home. And while there are very few cons to an ICF home they do bring up cons you may not have thought about before like the loss of square footage and a lack of ICF builders.
Come along as they share the best and worst things about building with ICF! Timestamps to video chapters and links to other videos they mention are below.
0:00 Introduction
1:50 Pro 1 - ICF is strong
2:52 Pro 2 - No need for load bearing walls
4:25 Pro 3 - ICF houses are quiet
5:30 Pro 4 - ICF homes are efficient
8:35 Pro 5 - ICF houses are comfortable
9:55 Information on humidity in ICF homes
12:00 Pro 6 - Twice the number of “studs”
14:30 Con 1 - Lack of ICF builders
16:45 Con 2 - Slightly more expensive to build ICF
18:45 Con 3 - Deep window wells and door jams
20:45 Con 4 - Loss of square footage compared to traditional
21:50 Summary of Pros and Cons
ICF Foundation and Monolithic Pour
• ICF Concrete Monolithi...
ICF and Radiant Floor Heating
• ICF Construction: Fini...
ICF Suspended Garage Floor
• Suspended Concrete Gar...
ICF Concrete Roof
• Our ICF Concrete Roof:...
Installing Mr. Cool Mini Split HVAC
• MR. COOL DIY Mini Spli...
Metal Siding on ICF
• Standing Seam Metal Ro...
Mistakes We Made in our ICF Home
• Mistakes We Made in Ou... - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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I watch a lot of home building channels. When I'm watching a performance stick build, you see all the intricate, labor intensive steps that must be done, and you better get them right, or you'll have a leaky house. I am constantly saying to myself while watching those show: "Wouldn't have to do that step, or that step, or that step, ..." Thanks for your update. Your house is great!
Exactly! We can't understand why ICF isn't just the standard home building model.
The entire lumber industry, and legacy stick builders don’t want to popularize ICF because it would hurt their business, profits, etc. Change is also hard and they don’t want to learn a new building technique.
@@andykross7242, yeah. I think any learning curve causes them problems. They also charge extra for all the premium detail work.
The biggest complaint I've heard for ICF is termites in some climate zones, and moisture after pour. Moisture can stay high in the house for a year after the pour as the concrete continues to cure and dry. All it takes is some dehumidifiers, but it can be an issue if clients don't keep up on it.
They have treated foam to prevent termites.
I'm getting ready to do my own ICF Build. Might use an AMVIC R-30 block, we'll see. Haven't decided yet. Need to get quotes from different manufacturers still. I can't wait. As long as you plan everything out appropriately and have everything braced well you are good to go. I've helped do several ICF houses about 20 years ago and the forms have come along way since then.
ICF is all.i do....I would never l8ve in a wood.house again especially after living in one...
Thanks for making your video series, I think it has been a very realistic, practical, and thorough series. Probably the most comprehensive of anything I have found, on TH-cam in my opinion.
Thank you so much! That means a lot to us.
Thanks for your videos and this update. I'm about 2 weeks into building my own ICF home in southern California and have used your experiences to help make decisions along the way. I can truly attest to the lack of ICF builders (there's only 2 within 500 miles). That being said, I wouldn't take on this job as a DIYer without the help of someone who is knowledgeable in all areas of construction (both rough carpentry and concrete/rebar). I was fortunate to find a helper who has both skills.
Can't wait to feel the comfort and strength you guys attest to in your home! Great job on your achievements.
Good luck on your build! We know you will enjoy your strong and comfortable home at the end of the process.
Ray can you share the builder you are using? We are looking into ICF in central California foothills due to all the fires over the past few years.
I did some construction during high-school and college. Helped with SIPS, ICF, stick built homes. ICF is the way to go for me. It's come a long way in the 20 years since.
I'm saving to buy property and build myself an ICF ranch with a full basement.
I like that I can set the forms and eliminate the framing, insulation, steps.
I loved this build series. Appreciate the information!
Looks awesome overall! My dream home building style!
Thank you for your icf video series. You both have been very helpful with all of your information.
Our pleasure!
I have designed my own dream house in my head.
It is a single ridge house. Length and width depends on budget. No second story, just ground level and basement.
The basement is ICF outer wall, with an inner wall of concrete block. The house above rests on the outer wall. Steel plates span the basement inner walls, and are bolted down into the concrete filled block of the inner wall.
The basement has the bedrooms and bathrooms needed for living through a night safely. A central family room is a good idea.
The upstairs contains all the stuff that can be replaced.
Family sleeps safe in the basement. All the important stuff is in the basement. The upstairs could be made to withstand a tornado if you want. But the key to the house is ground level and below is safe and an easy place to live.
There is nothing more terrifying than a pitch black tornado.
Thank you for summarizing everything like this. A lot of other content related to ICF is either an advertisement for a specific product or builder, or a DIY vlog that stops when construction is wrapping up without the overall reflections, especially a year later.
Glad it was helpful!
As always great video. Keep them coming.
Thank you, thank you. Your build is so similar to what I plan to build next year, that your experience and insights are particularly helpful. Mini-splits, radiant floor heating, humidity concerns regarding dry winter air, etc, etc. Thanks!
Wonderful! So happy our videos can help.
As always, simply awesome! Thank you!!!
Thank you for your pros and cons video. Very nice.
Loved this video. Wise choice.
If I build it will be ICF. No question. Great series. Thank you for making all the videos. I was able to find out my house has radon and remove it because of this series. Thanks again!!
Great information and very helpful so thank you.
Wonderful video. So look forward to the series! Was in a tornado last year. Directly impacted and everything destroyed. Now looking to rebuild and the only way we will go is ICF. So appreciate you making it understandable to a lay person.
I'm so sorry about your loss. I think you'll be very happy in an ICF home though!
ICF roof...
We should be starting works on our ICF house in the next month. Can't wait to see how it will perform in Eastern Canada during the winters.
I did a pitched insul-deck roof on my icf home. We love it
Great video 👍
I would recommend installing an A.O. Smith Hybrid water heater to cut that electric bill in half. It will also remove humidity from your home and it makes for an especially good energy saver to have in your basement. I just installed solar panels and I know from my Enphase App that my hybrid water only consumes 500 watts when in use. My ICF house was built in 2019 and now I know all other home construction is inferior.
Thank you. We will look into that!
I put my HPWH I
in my attic (conditioned pitched insul-deck concrete) works awesome
All other construction is obsolete.
It looks like you found a good solution for your location!
Great insight I will send ?s near future. THANK YOU, ORLANDO, FL
Thank you!
Great video. Thanks. I don't see the issue with the wall thickness. It's only 5-6" deeper than a traditional 2x6 wall. But with todays upgraded insulation levels, those 6" walls have an additional 2-3" added, just to meet code. (In Canada at least).
I'm living in a 140 year old house that has 20" foundation walls and 16" stone/triple brick upper walls. Love those deep sills!
Lovely looking house. I've enjoyed watching the progress.
I see it as a pro. Window seat at every window!
Great pro!
I wish I would have known about this before I built my house. Did modular thinking it would be stronger and better than regular stick built but boy was I wrong. If I would have known about ICF I would have never had a piece of wood in my house. All I have are creaking floors and cracked walls.
needs solar panels! that would be the ultimate setup! I can't wait to do this but with a house that's about 5x that size. Great work!
Thank you for your video! Can you tell us more about your windows! Is it commercial or residential? Double or triple pane?
Absolutely! We have Pella vinyl double pane with low E glass and the UV film.
Attachment points on 8" centers sounds great. How do you indentify where the attachment/anchor strips are afterg the drywall is installed? How comparable are those strips to a solid 2x4?
ICF attachment strips are equivalent to or even stronger than 2x4 studs. You can hang cabinets, loft beds, anything you want off of them. Amazon sells a magnetic stud finder that can help you find the nails or screw heads where the attachment points are.
Just know watching this . How much did the icf forms cost and the labor to put them in place
Thanks for sharing this video. I am looking to build and am researching building methods. How has the concrete/rebar/steel construction of your home affected the cell phone service in your house? How does your computer wifi perform inside/outside?
We don't have any problem with cell phone, reception or Wi-Fi. We use whole home hotspot through T-Mobile.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching y’all’s journey on your home.
My question is have you had some powerful rain to test out the Zypex waterproofing?
How is the Zypex working for you? Thx bruce
Yes, absolutely. We have had heavy rains and hail too. We have not had any problems whatsoever. We do have a rubber membrane that was a paint -on application that is our waterproofing for the roof. While zypex is a waterproofing agent for concrete, you cannot rely upon it for a concrete roof. You have to have a secondary system as well. There's a big explanation that has to do with micro cracks that take a few interactions with water to heal...
That’s awesome thank you for your response. Im hoping to build an ICF house with a basement in Florida using Zypex.
Thanks y'all. Question - how do you know where the "studs" are once you have covered the wall with drywall (in the future - how can you find you screw in point)?
We have a magnet "stud" finder used to find the screws that go into the plastic strips. We bought it on Amazon.
I have really enjoyed all your videos and especially the lessons learned my husband and I still go back to the one you did standing in front of your house and laugh at some other issues and we know we're going to have the same thing :-) we will be trying to document hours. We haven't gotten out of ground yet. As a comment concerning cost of materials at about 18 minutes into your video, where we're building in the mountains of North Carolina right on the Appalachian Trail it takes an hour for anybody to get to us so we are definitely paying a premium just because of our location. Yeah concrete right now delivered installed is costing about $400 yard. Yes ouch. We are planning to use quad block, and our primary reason is the same reasons you brought up stability strength ours is fire retardant because we're gonna have to be self insured. And yes yours is too. Yeah, that was our primary reason as well as wind, bug proof, bear proof or windows and doors would definitely be what is known as missile impact. Doing our roof as well, so thank you so much. These are great lessons learned for us. We are using quad lock for our system.
Congratulations on your wise choice of building with Quad Block. It is my choice of building systems.
Make sure you use a CERV system to ventilate your building. It is a free tip from me. Again good luck.
@@TheBuildgreen4U how would you suggest I finish off between the siding material and earth, right now I have standing seam metal on the walls and roof yet typically most products want you to keep 8 inches minimum away from their product and earth I'm considering stucco your thoughts?
Thanks for doing this video! One question I have: How do you find the furring strips in the wall if you want to hang something after the wall has been painted? Does a typical stud finder find those plastic furring strips reliably like it would a stud?
After all the finishes and painting, you can use a magnet detector to find where you placed screws for drywall. It takes patience, but it does work. amzn.to/42oYbQg
Thank you! Hate to complain - if ya’ll mic’s up the echo in your lovely kitchen would have made for a much more pleasant viewing experience.
Yes, sometimes we have all the equipment we need and sometimes we forget just trying to get the house finished, lol.
Quick comment about the windows. I saw another video where they 45'ved the vertical interior wall next to the window which allowed a larger viewing area to see through the window vs. having the wall flush (90 degrees). I thought that was a great idea.
Cool idea!!
Thanks for sharing! Question for you both …Why are there no load-bearing walls when using ICF construction?
We were able to span the load to the exterior walls with the LiteDeck and the floor joists.
Thanks for an informative video. How does the cost of an ICF roof compare with a stick built system?
Just the bracing for my icf roof was $8k for 2 months
My forms were $12k 2000sqft
Hi all, with regards to the drill-outs, (company from NJ) when you mentioned you would not do this again, were you also referring to the ledger drill-outs which support the joists beams?
No, we would have had knockouts for all the vents and exhaust fans, etc.
Thank you for a great video. May I ask, which product you used that allowed monolithic pouring of the footing at the same time?
It was called "Fastfoot"
@@LakeLotBuild Awesome! Thanks.
Been trying to figure how this method might work here downunder by the beach for eg? 🤷♂️
To avoid “concrete cancer” (the steel reinforcing rebar & mesh rusting inside the wall & the expansion cracking the concrete) I think I’d have to use galvanised re-bar & reinforcing mesh, and tie them into position with stainless steel wire? 🤷♂️
My next concern would be, from a fire safety point of view, would the insulation foam internal & external be fire proof?
The fumes from burning poly styrene for example when burning can be quickly fatal. Uncontrollable Wild Fires downunder is an annual risk in summer. We lost 18 houses in a Fire in Perth Western Australia just last month.
The metal external cladding would rust out inside 10 years near the beach if its steel.
Maybe compressed cement fibre board might be a better external cladding choice here, non flammable & unaffected by salt laden moist air.
I like the idea of a steel framed concrete tilt panel home from a fire safety & sturdiness in extreme weather & earth quake prone areas. (We can get Cyclones up to Category 5 strength).
The choice about building material & costs is a huge battle to “get it right the first time” & still be able to afford it.
This is my dream, to build a home of my own.
Is the wiring and plumbing that is traditionally behind the drywall of a stick built home between the insulation and enveloped in concrete on an ICF home? What if there’s a water line leak?
No. The wiring and the plumbing is in the styrofoam portion. We actually have a couple of videos that show how we do all of that. I hope it helps.
These are obviously smart people. It is hard to believe that 30 years after the introduction of ICF that there is still a single lumber home being built, other than a dog house maybe.
Hi, I didn’t read all of the comments, but here are mine. What is your frost level where the house was built? Where the house was built, was is the termite level and was that a consideration? I’m in S/E Idaho and our frost level is 36”. Thank you for your content.
Hi! We don't have a frost level here in Missouri, since everything on the outside of our house is concrete, including the roof, we didn't have to treat for termites. However, we would suggest everyone with traditional timber framed roof treat the ground for termites prior to building. Termites will go through the polystyrene and if they can find their way up to Wood they will get to it that way.
I know this is almost a year after you publish this video yet I have a question for you. How did you finish off your ICF where it meets the Earth. Typically whatever material you have on your house, they would like it to stay 8 inches from earth so what went between your house finish material and earth and or below earth? I'm considering stucco. my upper part of the house is all standing scene metal both the walls and the roof, and similar to yours, my house site has a dramatic change between one side and the other meaning it drops off several feet
Our siding goes to the ground and about 6 in below the dirt.
I have followed and enjoyed the entire build, happy to hear that you are enjoying the new house.
I believe that most of the perceived benefits are not solely due to the ICF construction but to your high level of involvement. Hence I am certain that a stick built home would have performed equally well in most areas and even better in others. But when building in a grade I understand the appeal of using ICF.
Currently I would not build a ICF house on the account of finding greenhouse emissions and dangerous substances important. Steel, concrete and foam are the worst offenders currently in the building industry. Steel and concrete can be produced using renewable energy, but mass production has yet to be started. The foam needs a flame retardant, most likely a nasty chemical like Hexabromocyclododecane. Furthermore, ants love the foam. I don’t know if it can influence the structural rigidity in the wall but under slab foam insulation can loose it’s rigidity.
Toxins from the polystyrene is my biggest concern about using ICF. Do you know of any data about how much of that, if any, leaches out of a properly installed ICF structure into the interior spaces? Is anyone working on an alternative, less-toxic material for ICF blocks?
I disagree. A wood house will never had the thermal mass or offer the protection against disasters. Finally, trees should not be cut down. Your concern about embodied carbon is misguided. The energy gains swamp embodied carbon.
Hi there, thank you for these videos. I had a question about the cost. You have 312K as the total cost. I'm assuming that's the total total? That includes from start to finish including all the finishes as well? Maybe it doesn't include the lot? But does it include excavation as well? What is left out of the total? Thank you!
Total costs include the build, excavation, and the finishes. It does not include the lot.
How much added support was necessary when pouring the roof? Are all your floors poured concrete? I just discovered your channel. Have a great day. Ray
Thank you for watching! I am including the link to our concrete roof. I will also link our garage floor pour in an additional comment. There is no added support or columns. The strength and structure come from the ICF block system made specially for roofs and suspension. We love it! Product is LiteDeck. Here is the video th-cam.com/video/BHuSl3yYBSM/w-d-xo.html
Here is the video for garage th-cam.com/video/z4gT5ecffYQ/w-d-xo.html.
Hi all, how do you get access to the roof? When the floor to the roof was installed, I did not see an opening in the concrete floor? Thanks
Hi! We have stairs from the second deck to the roof. We have a video on the installation of the stairs if you want to see more.
Did you guys use a non migratory TPS wire or just regular romex?
Just romex.
I'm curious about cell phone reception in a full icf house build. Also, is wifi a problem to get to your outdoor video camera surveillance system?
Cell phone service has not been a problem and we actually use whole-house hotspot wifi from TMobile for Internet so no worries there either
@@LakeLotBuild That's great to know. I guess the concrete isn't think enough to prevent the signal from penetrating. You definitely have moved me from the fence to in the yard on using ICF for my custom home. Thx
what was the cost of your litedeck per panel. I know its gonna be a little more now but I cant find ANY info on its price. Im just looking for a ballpark figure per panel and its dimensions.
I wish I knew! It was part of our total package for for the roof from Lite deck.
Sorry if you talked about this later in video but I dont have time to watch it all right now but wanted to ask how do the ICF walls handle stress from the foundation settling over time? And how are the ICF walls attached to the foundation?
The walls and foundation are done in a monolithic pour so they are one. There is no stress on the walls.
@@LakeLotBuild Wow! That's a huge plus! In the long run that's another way an ICF can save a lot of money b/c settling causes a domino effect of many expensive problems. Can decks be attached to an ICF after the home is initally built? Just curious how one would be attached since you wouldn't have a ledger board connection.
Who did you use for your ICF contractor and siding contractor?
We used ICF Walls of the Ozarks.
I’m curious…how do you locate these “studs”? Do regular stud finders work?
Regular stud finders do not work. We marked them in the floor or ceiling for hanging cabinets etc. Once the walls are finished, you can use a magnet screw/nail finder to find the screws and then you know you are on a "stud."
Measurements, ICFs Starts from the corners into the corners, fasteners inside Quad-Lock panels are 12 inches!
I love this system as well; but playing devil's advocate I see a few more "cons" to consider. First is that you will experience great difficulty making changes in the future because of the hardness of the concrete. The concrete is actually stronger than normal because all of the cement is cured as a result of the moisture retention in the wall. In other words...under normal circumstances some of the water in a concrete mix will inevitably evaporate. When using ICF there is no way for it to get out resulting in a better cure. This also means that you need to plan very well because cutting through the wall is a real challenge. Secondly though, some ICF manufacturers use styrofoam or like products which are actually toxic when burned making the house a death trap in a fire. There are other products made of expanded silica sand which are harmless and more environmentally friendly than typical construction. That's my 2 cents.... Great job guys! Thanks for the video.
I actually asked about the possibility to remodel, as I know would be harder than a traditional house. We would have to have a cutting and coring company come out, but they could get through the concrete easily. But you're right, it's not going to be as simple as getting a couple of hammers and knocking through a wall if we decide that's what we want to do down the road.
Will insects ( termites) infest poly-styrene? I’ve heard contractors will not treat for termites.
Yeah, this used to be a big controversy especially when ICF first came out. You can easily treat the foundation or the area around the house prior to building if you are worried about that. You can also bait the yard for termites to keep them away from the polystyrene. For us we have a concrete roof and no wood at all in the house construction, so we don't really worry about termites at all. Even if they got into the styrofoam there's nowhere for them to go and no reason to stay.
Isn't the quiet item a double edge sword? Meaning that it blocks all outside sounds, but don't you also readily hear just about every noise within the house?
Windows are a big factor. We hear thru our dbl pane windows but not the icf
What labor did you do yourself? Did you erect all the ICF blocks?
We did everything except for the ICF work and the concrete work. We also had the siding hung by professionals. We subbed all that. Everything else from electrical to plumbing to HVAC to cabinet building to tile to drywall to painting to landscaping and tree cutting was us.
@@LakeLotBuild how do your heat and AC compare to your old house cost wise?
Does a stud finder detect the seam?
No, but a magnetic screw finder from amazon will.
I don't believe that #2 Cost is a major problem even in the far north as you would have to insulate the outside and the inside of a stick frame house and have to pay more either way. As far as #1 you can build it yourself and save even more with just a little research on the ICF block from different manufactures. #3 give you more options to get different windows that are higher end windows. I have been looking at ICF block since the 1970's and would love to build one since I worked for a builder that built stick houses.
Agree with all your points. It was hard to come up with any real "cons" for ICF. I think we try to note more just things to think about and plan for when building with ICF. We would ONLY buy and live in ICF at this point. Such a great product.
You guys are treasure! I watched it all - thank you! Design and engineering is done! I am applying as owner builder in South Florida. Foxblocks ICF + InsulDeck ICF flat roof. 1700 sqft of living space. It is the costal area so stem wall with slab is 5ft above the ground. Massive amounts of compact fill. 12ft walls (above the slab), planning to run open ducts inside and have 12ft ceilings. Will be working part time remotely from South Florida, living in camper because rent is beyond expansive. People thinking that I am crazy, but I am so happy to take it on. I wish I could document it like you did, but I worry that I will double the time on the project. The idea is to build the box in 1.5 years and then take time finishing it up. I worry about leaving styrofoam unprotected for too long. Perhaps some coating could be applied to protect it from damaging UV light. Please keep it going, you are inspiring so many people.
Thank you so much! It means so much to us that others are inspired and helped by our videos. ❤️ We would have covered our block with paint or tyvek if we had to do it over again. It seems it's always out in the UV longer than you think it will be. Lol
Where in South Florida are you planning on building? I'm going to be building a place in Punta Gorda!
Have you added an air exchanger? It is a tight house.
Yes. We have a Panasonic ERV. One of our videos provides details about it.
@@LakeLotBuild Glad to hear it. This was the first video of yours I watched so I have some catching-up to do.
Thank you for watching!
I haven't yet seen you share how many sqft each level and how many total sqft total living area.
The house is 26 x 50, so 1300 sq ft on each level.
@@LakeLotBuild So 3 levels @1300 sqft? $80 sqft?
Two levels and a rooftop deck.
???
I hear icf is fireproof, but how can it be if it's foam on outside?
We figure the metal siding will help but then I also found this online: "Contrary to popular belief, the foam used in ICFs will not burn. It will melt if exposed to high heat, but it will not contribute any fuel to the fire. In fact, it is virtually “self-extinguishing,” thanks to a flame retardant all of the leading ICF manufacturers add to the EPS foam."
@@LakeLotBuild Thanks! Two things scare me, brush fire and hurricanes! Live in FL. Thanks for answering my question! 😘
How is cell phone service or WiFi in the house
Not bad actually! We have T-Mobile home hotspot for our Internet and it seems to work throughout the house. Our cellphones don't have any problems.
@@LakeLotBuild thanks that was one of my concerns
So you didn't install the mechanical ventilation system in your ICF? Big flaw
We have a whole house Panasonic ERV system. We love it. We have an episode on it. We also have two backup exhaust fans.
@@LakeLotBuild oh wow I'm impressed about that component and then the moisture/dryness factor explained in this video. Maybe it was the way you said it that it didn't land well in my brain haha. Amazing video by the way I'm so glad you built a healthy home. We got Stiebel mechanical ventilation system in our list. Our block vendor tested the blocks, each sheet of polysterene is R3.7!!! so the block has 3.7 *2 plus the concrete in the middle, insane. Our work is in progress :). I agree with you with all the things you mentioned btw :). thanks!!
We are sure you will LOVE your new home!
I’m looking for a solid Icf builder for 800 apartments in az. Reply to this if you know anyone who can take this on.
My best suggestion is just to contact Nudura or Fox blocks manufacturers and ask them who are the builders that order their blocks in that area.
Yall light bill cheaper than mine I have gas stove I do not use the AC or the Heat. Right now my AC and heat unit is completely off there's no power going to it. Somehow I average between 50 to $62 only have one TV I do have Wi-Fi. Just the AC alone yall beat me😂🤣😂. 08-29-23
my mr cool hs a Dry function so you probaly dont even need a dehumidifer
Ours too, but it didn't seem to help very much, unfortunately.
@@LakeLotBuild they say that all of the heads must be set on dry mode for it to work correctly.
Why compare with wood? Should be compare to CBS
A Rolex vs a Seiko is not a good comparison at all. Rolex does not keep good time. I've owned both. Rolex is a fancy bracelet.
Haha. You were probably right!
just wait tell it gets older all concert cracks there is no maybe its when .
Super strong till your under that concrete roof yikes
I found american homes very annoying to be honest because there is no privacy you can whisper and other person can hear the thing from outside so. I have question that ICF has thicker walls and roofs so you cannot hear someone speak and walking upstairs?
Audio on this video sounds hollow and almost with an echo. Sounds like the people speaking are in a reverberating tunnel. Presumably this is the fault of the recording and not the way sound is perceived on site. Yes? Also: lake houses, just like beachfront houses, are always damp. It's all that water outside the house. I always wanted to live in Valle de Bravo, a. charming and absolutely beautiful colonial village on a large mountain lake outside Mexico City. Until I went there. The humidity is so intense that all the walls are damp. Just like you, your clothes, your hair, and everything else. Really unpleasant.
Please use seperate better microphones next time. It is hard to understand an follow your conversation.