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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ธ.ค. 2018
- When you think of fields that are being affected by automation, medicine doesn't usually come to mind. But recent developments in artificial intelligence have doctors in at least one specialization worried that algorithms are coming for their jobs.
Researchers at Stanford University are developing a model that can screen X-rays for pneumonia and other diseases, a task that’s usually done by radiologists. When tested against a panel of expert radiologists, the algorithm performed at the same level - and sometimes better than humans - in diagnosing several pathologies.
And they’re among many doctors experimenting with artificial intelligence to read medical images. VICE News spoke with radiologists working on this new technology about whether it could one day replace them.
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VICE News spoke with radiologists working on this new technology about whether it could one day replace them.
WATCH NEXT on the robot that can build walls faster than humans - bit.ly/2wEoRzj
click my name to watch Son of Perdition part 4
Really Vice, just give me a break here ok, our human brains are much more advance than some AI God.
any routine work can be done by ai with "unlimited" memory capacity and processing speed.
ai is being used by engineers, accountants, scientists, etc. for doing routine work. why can't ai be used for medicine, i.e. routine work? lol
Okay so now we will understand doctors handwriting....bcz it will be printed...
Lol truss!!
I bet they would still charge 1000 to read an X-ray with AI.
'murica
maybe until your phone can do it
@@ABCDE710 Doesn't matter. The insurance companies will eat you into poverty phone or no phone.
Medicare reimbursement for chest x-ray reimbursement is about $8-15......
S Rao
1 second ago
Medicare reimbursement for chest x-ray interpretation is about $8-15...
They took our juurbs
Lmao
Tik ur juurbs
thew tk dew derrrbs
Tuurk dork dur
Ive been told by Radiologists they are being timed on how fast they read each case . A lot of pressure in a facility with a radiology department performing over 100 exams a day. These companies will def look at AI in the future to reduce staffing MDs
Unlikely. The human mind may not be fast but it is reliable. It likely that some MDs will be replaced by NPs due to scope creep. AI will likely serve as a tool to make Provider’s job easier but not entirely gone.
Unlikely. The human mind may not be fast but it is reliable. It likely that some MDs will be replaced by NPs due to scope creep. AI will likely serve as a tool to make Provider’s job easier but not entirely gone.
@@AverageJoe777 keep telling that yourself
@@Aziz0938 Most people will prefer someone taking care of them that can exhibit human emotions. Narrow AI cannot replicate such behavior and won’t have emotions.
@@AverageJoe777that means docters now will compassionate patient while ai treat patient 😂😂😂😂
The algorithm does not have to be perfect nor should anyone expected to. The algorithm only needs to be more accurate than human
New Notification yep. Most medical errors right now are human made, and it causes thousands of deaths per year
Facts
This video failed to ask a key question: What's the effectiveness of a radiologist teamed with the AI? Checking each other. Able to learn from each other. The AI can be seen as a useful tool that also leads to mutual improvement. Human AI collaboration can be the most positively impactful of AI technologies. I wish this video communicated that...cause this tech is wonderful news!
Ironically, as the human agent corrects the AI, the AI will become so good that the human agent can no longer compete with the AI.
If you're not a radiologist and you think your job is safe from automation, you're wrong. Get ready.
Good advice that many people won't listen to because it makes them rethink most of what they have been tough to believe and many of their life choices.
I for one have accepted the the jobless future and now wait to see what the tech-lords offer to keep me from picking up a torch and pitchfork and getting nasty on their too smart for their own good assess.
Most people think this is just some FUD
They are using Python. I spent the last 29 years coding in Python which I was introduced by Guido the founder of the language. It is so cool to see it used to help the universe.
you know any good tutorial for Python?.
@@PainRecodo There are so many. I haven't gone through this one, but it looks good: interactivepython.org/runestone/static/thinkcspy/index.html
Also, check edx.org and search for Python.
Tendo Lord internet is filled with information, whatever you do don't pay thousands for a course please.
Raphael , I’m wanting to teach myself coding, and hopefully get a job in that sector.. any suggestions for certification(s)?
eddie rodriguez don't worry about certifications, build your GitHub with related projects to the field you're studying
This is bound to happen to any sort of job that involves visual classification of content.
Well, it already happens for stuff like luggage, mail, faces in the latest cameras, and all sorts of industrial settings, so it's no wonder it'd eventually be employed in medicine.
But the bit in the end of the video is perhaps most important. Due to liability and just better medicine practice, this is a tool for docs, not a replacement.
It'll probably still cause some drastic changes around these jobs though. Radiologists and doctors will have to get trained or train themselves into identifying errors and problems in the AI analysis, and unfortunately tools that speeds up the jobs of certain categories tends to drag down their numbers or wages with it.
This isn't only about radiology too... eventually, it'll also get adapted to stuff like reading blood tests, all sorts of other examinations, and even monitoring surgeries to help in whatever manner possible. I think it's both true that this might be a threat to some jobs or overall stability of those, as it is that we needs these advances regardless, not wanting to sound cruel.
Thing is, this could greatly accelerate reach of modern medicine to places that still don't have good access to it. When you reduce obstacles for diagnostics down to having an Internet connected smartphone with a reasonable camera, some deep transformations can be achieved even in the poorest conditions.
Tens of thousands of X-ray images is tiny. As the training set grows, so does the accuracy.
3:57 Why interview medical students? Firstly they don't really know and 2nd, the results will appear much lower because they do NOT want to believe it. Ask people who are working in the field of Medical AI.
If we stop training radiologists, then 50 years down the line there will be nobody working in hospitals who has any idea what the algorithm is doing; what exactly it is seeing.
Yep it will become like a black box...
People will just take the output of this black box as an absolute truth...
You are right, who in the right mind will train for a job that is automated by artificial inteligence...
Future is soo dark and blik... nobody really knows what career will make sense, how somebody supose to make good white color job money when everything is automated :(
No. AI will augment radiologist's workload. It will in no way replace them. Each reading is a consultation provided by a clinician and we often knock on their doors to converse on challenging cases, make inquiries and discuss next best diagnostic step. I am sure this will be very helpful to radiologist to boost their diagnostic accuracy but the claim that radiology shouldn't be trained anymore is silly and irresponsible.
You are a fool.
@@user-lu6yg3vk9z so is your dad
@@user-lu6yg3vk9z if you knew anything about radiology, you'd think you yourself are the fool. go search up "Dr Cellini AI"
while I agree AI may not replace radiologists, it will however reduce the amount needed from an economic standpoint
@@brandonpierre3050 We have an extreme shortage of radiologists, which is why they're paid obscene amounts. They're gonna be paid the same amount as normal doctors once AI is advanced enough.
I’ve enjoyed stuff from vice before but this is pretty uninformed, overhyped bs. This is the stuff they turned me off from Yang, because a radiologists job isn’t as simple as being fed one image in the exact scenario that he or she has seen before. It takes wayyyyy more than just pattern recognition. If AI can replace a radiologist, not only could it replace other physicians, but the majority of people’s jobs as well. So if you’re falling for this hype, better start fearing for about 98% of jobs out there
You sound like a radiologist... 🤣🤣🤣 Pattern recognition is basically your entire job... And you work behind the scenes mostly with little to no interactions with patients
@@violetl.4615 Actually he is not wrong. It will replace most of the jobs.
That moment when you realize automation isn’t just going after low skill blue-collar jobs but also high skill white collar jobs. Truth is if a machine can do it better than a human only morons would choose the human. Do you still wash your clothes by hand?
I still wash some delicate clothing by hand, and i'd get dianosis from a human doctor. Why? Because if things go wrong you can always sue a doctor and get money for your suffering
Uh, yes because we don't have a washing machine to do that in my household and laundry services cost a pretty peso here since they are weighed first.
I see you trust your washing machine with your life. You can’t compare a washing machine to someone washing clothes. An ape can wash clothes you have to be trained to be a Dr.
@@tannyocean9984 you make it seem like you cant sue the AI company or hospital that allowed the AI company. Speaking of suing, law will be automated aswell lol
@@nikobelic4251 an ape can be a doctor lol. Most of the work is compiled by the staff, doctors read a chart, administer medicine, lab runs the blood work, nurses take the blood and check vitals.
Literally doctors arent really needed. Surgeons are needed, but not doctors.
I wish they'd invent an AI that can read differences from between two ct/mri scans. I've had huge changes in my recent scans from my compared scans from 6 years ago and it's changed significantly but the Dr who just sees only the most recent one says I look fine, but next to the old one you see major changes and I wish they had a system to recognize the changes in a mathematical view.
It exists but depends on the condition. An example is icometrix (a Belgian company) that analyses the differences between the scans of people that got MS in a very precise way. So it exists for the really subtle changes and I don't think it is needed to be mathematical if they are that major.
But it helps to ask the refering physicican to ask a for a comparison study to see if there is evolution. Maybe in a second opinion since you already got the scan.
In the future, robots/machines will start to perform surgeries as well.
A robot did a successful surgery couple of years ago
Dr. Paul chang answered exactly what exactly should happen!
No matter how cool the tech, when anyone (in this case the mass gen doctor) says that they are enjoying training their replacements are lying through their teeth. No one enjoys training their replacement and have their jobs taken away. Nice try though.
There's always going to be someone who needs to watch over the AI in case of mistakes or to make it more efficient. She's gonna get a pay bump and her job will be a lot easier. Don't think she's lying.
@@MoHimdi She'll eventually become redundant as the AI's dataset and training expands.
She didn't care...
For her age, she will retire anyway...
"Or literally died..." best line. 5:26
Surely can’t be worse than the TSA.
A.I. will eventually replace radiologists for CT, MRI, etc. I saw this coming a few years ago. Radiologists have a large workload and makes a LOT of mistakes often.
I think that current AI technology should be used in conjunction with professionals since both are susceptible to mistakes (AI sometimes less so). As time goes on, I can see AI making less mistakes than actual people, so the need of professionals will go down but they might be needed from time to time.
This is what I'm saying, there should be like a "Siri" for radiographers. A personal assistant that they can interact with and get more in-depth analysis of the scans etc.
So Ray Kurzweil, Tony Seba, Mathew Griffin and all the other futurists are on track I guess. Awesome 😎
2% better with a very small sample size. Y'all are really overstating those initial results
Computers don’t have the same issues as Humans in many subjects.
Just started and jts already 2% better. Think in two years time
Actually, 10.5% improvement
ChexNet did not perform better than radiologists specializing in the chest.
Python Script written by some Nerd is doing better than a Full Fledge Highly Experienced Doctor.👍
AI is not only threatening radiologists jobs, even physicians, surgeons
Where did they get that chest xray dataset? Is there a public place where medical datasets are avaiable?
China is light on their laws so a lot of datasets are based of Chinese medical immages
For everyone who failed statistics: 81% vs 79% is a 10.5% improvement, not 2%
Or just a 2% difference. Not that big of a deal knowing it was a pretty easy disease to see, classify and have immages of.
AI does not have human instinct. Nor they have life experiences. I trust AI to find stuff but not to diagnose and treat.
When the algorithm that gets it right 81% of the time makes a mistake, should we go back to the human that gets it right 79% of the time?
It only shows that a lot of people will get replaced or at least misplaced.
Python Scipt damn 🤣🤣😅😅
Python will be useful in 3010 as well
AI will replace not only baristas, drivers and carpenters but also bankers and doctors.
And accountants...
When they start making there own music. They already know what music humans like.
@@gtcosmoredstars5795 Nvidia demoed AI created music last year. Most of the songs are Meh, but one of them is really good. to listen to it search for: Nvidia I AM AI
The song that plays during the trailer is made by that Nvidia AI
@@2drealms196 oh wow. That k you for the Info
I don't think it will replace bankers/consultants. there are too many factors that go into those jobs and the AI could definitely not encompass all of them. I also think software engineering jobs will not be harmed for the same reason
I wonder if the sonography falls in this category...anyone have any input?
Don't think so since they are performed by radiologists or ultrasound techs that give an diagnosis at the spot and it is more dependant on the user than a scan or xray immage.
AI will be the greatest invention mankind ever created.
Lazarus Blackwell
I think AI will be the last invention that humanity will create.
After that AI will definetly Terminate humanity.
Human Inteligence will be exterminated by Artificial Inteligence, in short we are creating our own worst enemy..
@@limitless1692 Its possible but i think we will be fine.I think we all watched too many Terminator movies.
you know the problem is that these AI's are trained in "one diagnosis" and one diagnosis only. Often times, people have several different problems. If you run a "pneumonia" algorighm over a chest x-ray, it won't detect an incidental Lymphoma in the shoulder. Also, it can't differentiate between different diseases, it just sais "the likelihood is 68% that this is pneumonia". What you do with this information is up to the radiologist. What is the "cut off"? Could it also be another disease, etc. There is no algorighm that knows every possible x-ray/ct/MRT change there can be and interpret it. It would need an endless amount of data and time for that. So no, radiologists will definitly not be "replaced".
Whatever the field; all it needs to be: cheaper than humans
Eric Falch Yes ! So the insurance companies can charge us even more. USA health costs are 75% MORE than other developed nations.
@@eddenoy321 No my problem as I live in Europe. Enjoy your debt spent on useless wars. Cheers from sunny Spain.
@@EricFalch I am sure life is just perfect there, right ?
@@EricFalch Meanwhile your country struggles with unemployment and a bad economy...
@@drazgul9403 Not unemployed. Nothing better than being rich in a poor man's country.
0:51 Behind every lost Job, there is an Indian IT man with a computer.
#JustKidding_NoRacismIntended
The hype is reaching its peak and will slow down after that. For deep learning you need tons of data and compared to other uses of AI, it is really limited in the medical field. It will assist radiologist but not replace them since radiologists also communicate with other doctors, do consultations and do procedures. Best example in how to implement them is by giving structure to the radiologists worklist. An example is in TB screening in Abu Dabi where radiologists get fluddedby chest xrays from migrant workers and the AI software give it structure by putting the likeley positive cases on top of the list.
AI will also replace nurses, primary care physicians, and surgeons not just radiologists
Engineers too as well domain the Human Specie 😈😈😈
Hyped by VICE!
For every one mistake the algorithm makes, the physician will make 5.
The advance that a human got is that 2 or more radiologist working together will be more better than 1 million or gogolplex AI machines working together. This what make human better and make him special.
This technology is not going to replace radiologists, because radiology isn't an image classification problem, it's an image description problem. Yeah it's easy to classify chest x-rays into "pneumonia" and "not pneumonia" categories with a ton of training data. Being able to solve easy problems doesn't mean you have a hope in hell of solving the harder problems.
Are you a radiologist? Because you're exactly right, the job of a radiologist is not to come up with a diagnosis or classify an image into Disease X or not disease X but describe an image. There are multiple things that can present on a chest xray in the exact same way as a "pneumonia". This finding then needs to be correlated with the patient's other symptoms.
True, even well-trained radiographers can do simple classifications like 'pneumonia' and 'not pneumonia' ; 'pleural effusion' and 'no pleural effusion'; 'pneumothorax' and 'no pneumothorax'. Apart from giving simple general opinions, there is still a long way to become a radiologist.
Planes do fly without a pilot, it’s called auto pilot, there should always be a person trained that checks it, what we want is AI training humans to recognise certain patterns, you would rather a better diagnosis! But we should never make humans redundant. Because eventually all our electricity will be wiped out by solar flares etc. it’s better we work with it and not rely on it!
Trust me many doctors already use google to gain more knowledge and discover what tests are more appropriate!
We are all screwed........
Spoiler Alert: Doctor at end of video refutes stupid false headline.
It is 2022 and we still have radiologists.
I don't think you should ever stop training radiologists. A.I. is cool, but I would really appreciate a human behind the wheel of healthcare.
Good, instant results, low cost, more accurate. Why not?
Low cost?😂
Never happen.
AI it just replaced xray technicians
X-ray tech are trained to take images.
If it saves another life I'm in full support.
This technology is in its infancy. This study used a small sample size and a single pathology. It may have other issues as I havent read it, I dont know. Generally its termed CAD computer aided diagnosis and is showing a lot of really interesting data, particularly relating to prediction of future pathology like osteoporosis. Radiologists do a lot more than just look at chest x-rays, they do interventional work too. Anyway CAD is a long way away from putting people out of a job. I'm actually about to write a paper on this as a student radiographer, so I do know a little. I also know being a radiologist is really hard and quite inspiring to see their level of medical knowledge. They've trained as a doctor much like a gp would and then radiology is their speciality. Hope this was at least a little interesting and not all in the video ive only watxhed 52 sexonds of XD
Remember how huge and slow computers were, with limited capacity but now could you imagine that every single one of us would have a small smart phone in our pocket... machine learning will also do the same in medicine... give it time.
This technology will be a disaster to the economy , if not the radiologists.
Consider all the fees collected from the patients being directed to the software companies. Surely there will be a role of radiologists in it who will naturally charge the patient for their services and hence the two charges get summed up leading to further rise in cost of medical healthcare. This thing does not deserve a welcome, rather must be protested against!
Open to critics.
Not at all ..u r so wrong about Economics ..
I’m sure it will be better than the doc I had.
this is why i didn't go to college cause i knew this would happen :P man so health care will be cheaper at least lol
The physicians will fight against the automation of their jobs but will prefer the jobs of Clinical Laboratory Scientists and Biomedical Scientists to be thrown to automation.
I hope the doctor still looks and not just trusts a program all the time
Yea I'll keep my doctor.. It was, only a couple percent higher..
That small percentage can be the difference between life and death for many people.
Crowd knowledge is more accurate than an individual's when the crowd is made up of experts. That's what needs to be remembered when advancing AI tech. AI tech needs to be combined with a human failsafe. The info the AI gains may become dilluted over time, so a human failsafe will always be required.
But as this technology takes over, I’m assuming doctors specifically newer ones will be relied on less to make these determinations. So wouldn’t they have less experience and basically offer very little in terms of being a failsafe!
X-ray techs will be next, then MRI techs then CT scan techs. Only thing I see as safe is ultrasound techs and cardiologists.
why?
So why are you involving cardiologists? Go nothing to do with a radiology department so you maybe think about interventional radiologists but all radiologists perform some kind of procedure and the work of techs won't be replaced by a software. Think you got a poor understanding of these professions.
I like how that radiologist assumed the computer was a woman. 3:55
The job of a doctor is more robotic than that of a worker. It's logical AI/robots will replace those jobs before any other.
Thought that was Johnny sins in the thumbnail.
It will replace you. The rate at which we are developing robotics with fine motor capabilities, I wouldn't be surprised if routine surgeries were performed with a combination of AI and Robotics. If it makes getting life saving surgery cheaper and faster why not? The AMA has a mandate to literally keep the number of physicians trained to a minimum just to maintain an inflated salary. By taking care of routine work, you free up the health care system to do more technically demanding patient care. Money hungry doctors hate this idea because it will make them lose a portion of their social status and inflated income. Doctors who entered the profession to care for people love the idea because they know that a good doctor is impossible to replace. Face to face patient care cannot be automated. But AI/Robotics is a powerful tool that will weed out the greedy docs who just want money and don't care about people.
AI will be the future for CTE I bet. I have severe immune an neurological issues an get no help. I hope AI can help with rare cases
This really is very easy to replace all the tasks people are doing with smart machine. You only need a working copy of human brain for it. That some professors call it all hype means only that they are stupid. Or another explanation is that they are being paid for lying.
This technology may increase the productivity of Radiologists, thereby reducing the costs for a diagnosis but keeping wages constant for the profession.
VICE should do a thing on the Luddite fallacy. I don't think I've seen any news agency talk about the Luddite fallacy but its one of the first things taught in economics. Think about all the horse stable jobs lost because of cars, and then think about all the jobs cars create. Think about all the telegraph jobs lost because of phones, and then all the jobs phones create. Same with accounting jobs and Microsoft Excel. Excel has increased demand for accountants because accountants' productivity is so much higher if they know how to use Excel versus pencil and paper. Think about all the TV journalism/reporter jobs lost because of TH-cam, and then the jobs created by TH-cam.
Excel is starting to become obsolete. Data is becoming too big for it, and its BI capacity cannot keep up either.
Never completely cut out a human.
Malpractice is the third leading cause of death in the US after heart disease and cancer.
250,000 deaths a year from human error.
Cassie Stephenson human error is just as high as AI, if not higher
Doesnt matter how much u get advanced ....but a human touch can never be replaced in medicine field......
Yes the touch of no caring
The problem is not if the radiologists will be replaced, but how the a.i. , the algorythm is able to explain his answer.
A.I. should be used to make Radiologist's better.
Good news.. now we have AI to reduce physician burnout as well.
Replace them clowns totally
YES!
I doubt that govt hospitals in India will ever implement AI machines.The residents work 24/7 with 99% accuracy. With as low as 35k salary.. replacing them with AI and a technician will cost much much more..
AI can be deployed as a web service... Send image to API, receive answer. Done.
@@pinkietoes hahahha. Dream on! You have no idea about developing country public.
Profiting and exploiting the misery of others is reserved for Humans, not machines. How dare they help all those sick people, those Doctors need those jobs.
She's very excited
She is not. It is an act or she has investment in radiology A.I.
I was expecting a much better score than just 2% more effective, just leave it to the doctors, that way somebody can take the blame if it goes wrong.
Downloading modules via pip xD
Well all this AI and covid 19 still fucked us over
because we aren't using it
DrPaul Chang is Right !
honestly with medicine specializing more and more this is a panacea
do u even bench my guy u flipping cheeta my gran benches more than u go to the gym
THANK GOD
Who have read thinking fast and slow?
Paul Chang knows nothing about AI!!!!
He's scared.
He is a professional Doctor ...
I think he would know more about Radiology than tech algorithms
Thats coz
There is difference between classic Textbook image vs Real world variation in anatomy
Well he is right about it being a hype at the moments with all the startups at the moment. And we give it like it going to replace them when they will probably only assist radiologists in the future. And are we all forgotten that radiologists do more than just reading immages?
so how your artificial intelligence did have all these datas?
Most start ups actually get their data sets from Chinese hospital since they hardly have privacy laws on medical immages. And that has a possible risk on implementation in the Western world since there are differences in living styles and liklyhood of pathologies.
Screen with AI, double checked by Radiologist
You care to refer Jeff as the God Father of DL, You Have My Respect... 😍😆
Human-in-the-loop systems always perform better than systems that rely on AI/DL alone or humans alone. The AI/DL 2% win over humans is not as impressive when you know that the AI/DL did not spontaneously discover the pattern but it was fed it by humans. In this case the DL/AI would have achieved nothing without human input to identify the patterns with which it developed the ability to identify the disease at scale. This type of of knowledge is not likely to spring spontaneously out of a DL/AI algorithm any time soon. The key is developing a DL/AI to do the routine basic analysis and then looping in a human to look for the exceptions or anomalies. Such a model, where an AI/DL allows for massive scale of analysis offers the prospect of democratizing imaging technologies and allowing a massive number of people currently cut off form such services to get access. Many of the skills that make radiologists key contributors to the health professional value chain will not entirely be replaced but their job title and job description will likely change to encompass more complex high value non-routine interventions. The visual skills of anomalous pattern recognition will be needed when paired with AI/DL tools, a multitude medical imaging technologies and data intensive medical analysis requiring data visualization analysis.
right!
Cant the AI do those pattern recognition on it's own from collective data? I mean those anomalies can be detected by a human because that same human studies those anomalies right? So cant the AI learn to compare and contrast like human brains do?
I think the doctor who checks your BP , pulse can also look into images when they are simplified
First AI should be able to resolve banking problems and fraud detection which is so prevalent yet in 2021specially in the stock market. We have a handfull of good doctors to take care of patients. Offcoarse, If AI had been very effective then vaccines for Covid19 would have been rolled out by flick of fingers, without confusion. AI can be used as a suggestion but not decison maker.
You can you self-driving car cause it's better than human. But the question is, will you?
When they can make a AI algorithm to replace referees I will go back to watching the NBA in the NFL I don't understand why we have all this technology and we use some old ass racist referee instead of algorithm
you are looking at this all wrong and asking the wrong questions. We need to totally change the concept of jobs, ai replacing jobs should be a positive thing not a negative. How is it finding something more efficient not a good thing? losing jobs ok, but what is the point of jobs again?
Yeah but AI cant do fluoro exams.
everyone laughing at people with art degrees, I knew this was gonna happen when all my friends got doctorates.
Ha. AGI tho.
LMAO for real tho
And then art will be automated too :)
Well, this didn't age well.
Lol
2% is not statistically significant.
Tak lama lagi Ai ganti tempat Doctor
It's not bad when AI "steals" out jobs, because if we ain't have any jobs left, that means humanity is fully atomized and we can focus on other things!
that actually makes point,.🤔
And how will you feed your family?
@@bruhh4676 simple, just don't have a family to feed. Buy a sex doll instead 🤣
You’re too naive to think people won’t go insane or use their time wrong