A Brief Look at Ests
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- / danidoyle
This is the video I've put the most time into on the channel, which is honestly fitting because that's like the whole deal with Ests, give them a bunch of time and they become good. Hopefully that's true of the video too!
Thanks to @akirasou and @casualjacob776 for providing footage. You should subscribe to them.
Thanks to @morsode for helping with the radiant dawn section, since it's their favorite game.
Check out vids related by @eaturgrns and @akirasou (and sub to them they're both cool)
• The Problem with Ests:...
• Res: the true Fire Emb...
• Nino: The Most Beloved...
/ discord
Music Used
Fire Emblem Awakening-Duty Ablaze, Menace
Fire Emblem 4-Army of Verdane, Army of Isaac, Army of Yeid, Amry of Manster, Amry of Miletos, Amry of Agustria, Army of Granbell 2, Army of Ogrehill, Neutral Forces
Paper Mario-Sunny Goomba Village, Attack of the Koopa Bros, Huffin' and Puffin', Angry Bowser
Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga-Hoohoo Village
Fire Emblem Echoes Shadows of Valentia-With Mila's Divine Protection, Where the Wind Rustles, A Blade on the Wind
Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon-Fateful Footsteps
Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising-Colin's Theme
Papers Please-Main Theme
Advance Wars Rebootcamp-Strum's Theme, Sensei's Theme, Captain Drake!, Sonja's Theme
Mario And Rabids: Kingdom Battle-Midboss Mayhem
Mario Party 3-Waluigi Island
Mario Party 8-Booty Boardwalk, Perplex Express
Mario Party 6-Castaway Bay, Snowflake Lake, Snowy Nights
Death's Door-Avarice
Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door-Princess Peach's Theme, Madame Flurry's Theme, Doopliss Battle, Main Theme
Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn-Tibarn's Theme, Naesala's Theme, Caineghis's Theme, King of The Sky
Fire Emblem 6-An Unexpected Caller
Mario and Luigi Bowser's Inside Story-Oki Doki!!
Fire Emblem Fates-Dusk Falls
To me people calling Zeiss an est and/or bad is just the product of how the brain of fe fans gets confused the moment someone in the Wyvern class doesn't break the game in half
Yeah and even then he doesn’t break it in half only because his melody already does.
Funny thing about Mauvier, his personal growth total is actually the second highest in the game behind Anna. Maybe that (and the fact his base speed is iffy in a doodoo class) is why people think he's an Est?
Also, I can see the argument about specifically Rosado. Though he's a prepromote with an average level, he joins over halfway through the game, his bases are noticeably lower than the rest of your cast, and he has some of the best physical offensive growths in the game. Plus, he's a flier on a map with a flooding gimmick, so that could make him easier to train up.
Finally finished watching this. Just wish we had time to go a bit more in depth, such a short video couldn't possibly give enough attention to a lot of the best Ests around, like Zeiss and Sara.
Also if you use savestates Sophia is pretty easy to train, and if you rig all her levels and no one else's she's the best unit in the game
Damn, those are all good points, Imma delete my channel in shame 😭
A near 2 hour video about one of my favorite archetypes to use? I'm gonna love this
Your point about archetypes mainly being a tool of communication is key. FE discussion used to take place on forums where it was easier to rigorously define terms, but now discussion is dispersed throughout many different social media communities which has made archetypes more broad and vague. It's kinda like how the separation of Jagen and Oifey was pretty prominent on Serenes Forest but these days Oifey has been absorbed by Jagen.
As one of the people who submitted Sheema, I'd say that there's a meaningful distinction. Her New Mystery self is, ultimately, just another bad unit in a game absolutely full of them. A funny-bad unit with no real redeeming traits in a game where there's so many already.
In FE3, though, while the combination of lower caps, higher growths, and that she's a completely guaranteed indoor Gradivus user given she has enough WLV to use it at base, but otherwise poor enough stats that without raising her up she'll be killed without getting a chance to ever get much use out of it, while she's definitely well enough below par even for a filler unit at base aside from near-capped defense that being technically promoted doesn't mean that she isn't behind where your units should be for that late in the game. She also grows in a way that's pretty well-suited for the indoor three-map marathon that is true ending endgame.
Otherwise to use one of the best weapons in the game in more than one map you have to either invest a WLV manual in Draug or get lucky on his low WLV growth, not to mention feed him for much more of the game throughout much more armor-unfriendly waters, mean that she isn't just his replacement for the niche, but someone who generally has a lot of reasons to be considered over him in spite of a much more brutal training window. Also that ever so important number-go-up brain chemical rush.
I the perception that ests dont have low bases comes form comparing them to units of the same level not the same join time, for example im pretty sure nino has higher stats at whatever her starting level is than erk does at the same level
I could probably play Fe7 from the moment Nino joins to the end of the game in the time it takes for this video to finish
God I fucking love Nino
I’m still of the opinion that Nino is possibly the best worst unit in fire emblem, or at least fe7. There is absolutely no reason to use her but she at least has an actual payoff with a surprisingly low amount of commitment.
I think 1 requirement of being an est is that they have to be a child that you feel guilty about making fight
Video title: A brief look at Ests
Video: *almost 2 hours long*
Sorry that it's so short , I'll make it longer next time 😔
All right, let me get this straight. An Est is an underleveled unit, with bad bases and good growths, who can’t contribute on their joining chapter, and give you a payoff if you train them.
By this logic Charlotte is an Est in Conquest.
Using the arbitrary requirement that an Est has to join in the second half of the game a character who joins half way through Chapter 13 of a 27 chapter game puts her right by the cutoff. She’s also one of the last units you gain in the main campaign and she’s a full 5 levels below Keaton and Benny who join in along side her and the next chapter respectively. She’s effectively 10 levels behind Leo who joins next chapter and Camilla who’s been in the army for some time at this point in the game.
Her stats look decent at a glance but her hit rate is so bad they may as well be zero since she tops out around 40-50% hit rates against generics in her joining chapter. On Chapter 13 she’s an active liability since if you don’t drag her along with the rest of your army she’ll get unceremoniously killed off by the reinforcements that spawn when you start fighting Scarlet.
Finally, Charlotte can absolutely be a boon to your army if you force yourself to use her. She’s got excellent growths in every relevant stat except defense and she provides a support partner fantastic pair up bonuses. She also has access to good skills through promotion, even in her base class. As a Hero she can get semi-reliable healing through the Sol skill and as a Berserker she can use Rally Strength to buff all of your other units.
Conclusion, it’s really easy to twist definitions when you want to.
Great video! Personally I always use Ests and bad units near endgame just because they provide a fun challenge even in some of FE's easier endgames
Truly amazing video! Great work.
Enough about est, let's talk about other time zones for a while
Thanks for the video! I can tell you worked very hard
Ests should have low base stats compared to your already strong units when they join, but their bases can be good relative to their join level (ie good for a low level unpromoted unit)
Honestly, I've never called these "ests" it may be wrong, but I call them "Tikis" as you get Tiki pretty late, she comes at level one, and with enough effort (at least in fe1), she's arguably the best endgame unit. Though I suppose she also serves as a way in others' heads to differentiate in a simple sentence the difference between good manaketes, and fe12 bantu so that might be why Est is the example
Imo, I think that Ests can exist on a sort of sliding scale; like how we have Jagens like Seth and Marcus vs Jagens like Vander and... Well, Jagen. I think someone like Nino is definitely an Est, while also personally thinking that the iterations of Est with mediocre growths are also still Ests.
Unless their growths are outright *garbage*, I personally think being unpromoted, having bad bases, and joining in the last third of the game (I can settle for the last half if the unit in question has REALLY bad bases) is more than enough to qualify someone as an Est.
I've only beaten one ROM Hack but I'll put out some propaganda too. My favorite Est to use was probably Myrm Emblem's version of Larcei, she comes in like 6 chapters from Endgame on a map with a timelimit, but she's separated from your army with Ayra who's a decent prepromote (though the game has a lot of those). She's Level 5 but has Paragon, so with some effort you can get her to 10 in just a single map, and upon promo she'll probably be as good as Ayra was, which is decent.
What makes her stand out is that Myrm Emblem is a tough game with extremely strong and high Level enemies, this means that with Paragon, she'll gain a Level per kill for like 5 Levels even after promotion, which is super satisfying. Her ability to hug the caps is also appreciated and she's one of few units I can think of where HP is an actual standout stat. Everybody's fast as fuck in Myrm Emblem so getting doubled isn't an issue, enemies are also strong as fuck so taking single digit damage is difficult to do, only like two units can manage. Units with decent bulk are genuinely limited by their HP, which is usually 40~, Larcei has decent bulk but a 100+% HP Growth so she easily gets to like 50+ HP and it helps her survive like one more guy per EP and that's a big deal. She was also really quite good at using Myrm Emblem's plentiful and powerful magic Swords for me but idk if I just got Mag blessed so I wouldn't count that, she's just fun to use and helpful in an unexpected way.
I don’t believe Flayn is an Est, but my guess as to why people call her one is because she gets Frozen Lance at A rank (unlike all the other users who get it at C+ or through a budding talent). So she gets it really late but with her super high magic growth, you can heavily invest in her for her to become a late game frozen lance delete button, as opposed to her early game where she has super weak combat.
tldr: Flayn is at base an extremely weak combat unit that you can invest into to become really potent so people associate her with the archetype
Surprised that Sun wasn't included with the Tear Ring Saga characters when Leteena and Rebecca were. She always felt a bit Est-y with how she joins halfway through the game, pretty underleveled, not amazing base stats, but gains paragon, has a good promotion, and learns a whole bunch of neat skills if you train her.
As someone who has only played FE1 on the Switch, I don’t understand why people mislabel what should just be a “late game flying inventory management unit” as some top tier high growth unit. Her introduction says it all: She shows up to give Marth the Mercuius.
Est has the highest growths in fe1.
"Brief" and it's almost 2 hours long
time to sit down and watch :D
"A Brief X" and an Hour+ Long Video essay - name a better duo, I'll wait
You guys remember when they switched Est and Catria's stats in FE11? What did they mean by this?
Sophia feels like a weird one to me, because, and I'm assuming intention here, but it seems pretty clear to me that she's *intended* to be the same idea as Nino, she's not *intended* to be a joke unit, like Karla.
Nino, also, like, the most Est-y of all Ears, doesn't really turn out *amazing* compared to other mages, even fully trained, so I don't know how damning Sophia’s underwhelming final performance is to her ranking because, like, if she's not an Est then it's a *really* small class.
But, as you said, different things are more important to some people than others and it seems that end performance is more important to you than to me when it comes to categorizing ests
You see, I think the intent is a joke unit, since in her supports we learn the reason for her bad stats is she lost her dragonstone (which is implies to be what got half her stats from). Sophia also has worse growths than the other mages, while nino has better growths than the other mages. This isn't about how ests are rarely worth the effort, but how Sophia doesn't even pretend to be worth the effort.
@@DaniDoyle that's a very reasonable interpretation as well. Just seems weird to hide that she's a joke unit behind her supports whereas Karla makes it obvious in her recruitment.
To me they almost never are worth the trouble. Oh, yeah. I will totally try to train this level 5 mage in one of the most difficult maps in the game and probably getting to reset 10 times before she finally survives and catch up with rhw others. Or i could just keep using Pent, Erk and or Canas that are all almost in the max level.
Can't you argue that L'Arachel is an Est in that by the time you get her out of her staff-lock, *then* she'll be underleveled and you'll be in the late game and she'll have accelerated level ups?
She won't have accelerated levels though, because she'll be promoted, and closer to (or higher than) enemy levels
When you were mentioning dragon names I was like “someone must refer to these girls as an archetype” I think Makkah doing many tier lists as Archetypes early during COVID has warped a lot of what we think archetypes are. Ests are rare and trying to fit characters in those boxes just make excuses for poor units or lack of understanding of who they are. I don’t believe in Merric’s, Navarre’s or Caedas. The fact that the game give you a certain type of squad early game is due to game progression. They need the characters and while I do agree normally you have wind or green dudes, is azel a merric? No. Stop with this or I will invoke my Christmas Merric Clanne and will demolish the team with my est Minerva Rosado
wait, who other than Pelleas can use dark magic?
... it's Sephiram, isn't it?
Yes
Pokémon has an Est archetype : it's called "Magicarp".
Or, in other words : the Est archetype is a Magicarp archetype that joins late. Like Gen 2 Larvitar.
Was not a voter in the poll. However, On the subject of "base stats" like you had asked, there are some units I always thought of as Ests that their bases literally did not matter because of the type of unit they were. The best example probably being Myrrh from FE Sacred Stones. Her join time is after the route split, with only 1 character joining in the main story after her, her growths are THE best in the game, and her bases, while yes they are "bad" they literally do not matter because of her dragonstone. They could have been literally almost anything and she would still shred almost any enemy in her join chapter at base, and even in the chapters after. So her bases just don't matter or factor into the equation, but I still consider her an Est, personally. Same goes for some of the Laguz in FE 9 and especially 10 because their stats while transformed are basically doubled in combat compared to whatever the base number is, which in turn affects what their joined bases are and their growths to a certain extent. Do I consider many laguz to be an Est? No, honestly probably only Lyre and she's maybe not an Est depending on other factors, but RD is pretty weird when it comes to unit join time and unit availability, so pinning down an Est in that game is way harder, as is any other unit archetype in that game, in my eyes.
The last one I can really think of is child units from games like Awakening and Fates? Some of them join with bases that are solid enough, though they obviously need levels and need more stats to fit in, but they can become some of the best units in the game and have some good growths, but are they Ests when they can join either in the first half of either game mentioned, or depending on when you reach your S rank supports, literally right before the final chapter? Your opinion on these factors is your own, but the fact that the questions can be posed in the first place probably means someone considers any of these units mentioned an Est or a potential one.
I would argue that you are overstating how good Myrrh is in the beginning. And the fact that she late joins and has multiple 100% growths seems a lot more important than having access to a good weapon. Disqualifying an entire class because their weapon has stat boosts doesn't make sense to me, especially when there is so much difference in performance with manakete. Effective weaponry or teehee damage really shouldn't help or hurt an argument of being an est, as some units are just glass cannons. Especially in sacred stones endgame where the only stat the enemies really have is damage.
Sure at lv 4 she can reliably bully skeletons but there are plenty of monster classes that will do damage to her. And her hp base is so horrifically bad that any damage she takes matters.
how many archetypes has the community made? ive heard of jagen, oifey, est and navarre but i hadnt thought there was a tiki or merric "archetype". though adittedly in my head i have sadi "oh ok so *blank* is like *blank*" before. but not like enough times between enough games to be consistent
personally, I don't think the "tiki" archetype is real, but yeah, the community has a bad habit of making "archetypes" that are just "a class". The "Gordin Archetype" (archers) "Draug Archetype" (Armors) and "Merrics" (Mages) are several examples of this. Needless to say, i think this sort of attitude is incorrect.
Some of the archetpes are definitely stretches, like Gordin or Draug. But there's also some that are solid, like the "Christmas Cavaliers", aka the Cain and Abel archetype. They'll be a pair of characters, typically cavaliers, which you'll typically get early. One will typically focus on strength, defense, and HP. The other will typically focus on skill, speed, and luck. and one will have a red focused color scheme while the other will have a green color scheme
Ests are just the opposite of Jaegans ^^"
Basically
After watching the video, I think I agree with the conclusion that Est archetypal units exist to feel good to use late in the game when other units are pre-promotes or good early game units that grow into strong promoted units. Though, the criteria that you use to eliminate many characters who might fit that description but don’t align perfectly with Est or Nino’s core design philosophies seems too reductivist to be a useful way to discuss characters. If there are only five or so Ests in Fire Emblem, then why bother labelling them as their own archetype. It seems to me that we could just call them “late-joining trainees” if we want to convey exactly that they are low-bases-high-growth-late-game units. Instead, I think focusing on that conclusion as the definition of an Est is probably more helpful in the discourse of the unit.
For example, I’d say Sophia from FE 6 is an Est despite her abysmal growths because the point of using her is to win with an under-leveled, under-powered unit so that you can feel good about overcoming the challenge. Est and Nino fit that description pretty well, and so do many other characters. It’s not necessarily the same as trainees like Ross, Donnel, or Mozu, who are all not significantly under-leveled and not significantly under-powered for the point that they join. Some trainees might be Ests by that definition, like Ewan or Amelia, but there’s some distinction that makes it feel warranted to use it as a term to frame discussions.
(Maybe that’s what you meant all along and were trying to convey in your conclusion, but if so, that point gets buried in the exorbitant amount of time you spend explaining why certain characters aren’t Ests because of the mechanical caveats.)
While I understand that both Sophia and "traditional" ests are weak(Such as Nino in the sequel), the ways in which they function are quite different from each other, with Nino functioning as a "project" while Sophia is a "joke unit" (the game even pokes fun at her stats being so low because she lost her drgaon stone). I don't think it is reductive to point out the ways in which these units function incredibly differently from each other despite sharing one similarity (weakness at base), on the contrary I would say it's reductive to have such a broad definition as to be meaningless. If all est means is "bad late unit" then why not just say that?
almost 2 hours of FE yapping oh I'm well fed thank you youtube ad
It's not actually an ad haha thats just the thumbnail making fun of those mr beast scam ads
@@DaniDoyle oh, right! it's pretty convincing at least lol
strive to be an est irl
est
good vidoe
Can you please lmk what the FE1 romhack that played early on in the video is?
That's not a romhack, that's just fe1 0% growths
OH! Thank you
If NINO is my favorite unit then how can she must be FIVE STARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
According to your thumbnail, she is actually 6 Stars! Why does the story kwep changing
CALLED OUT for my LIES @@DaniDoyle
I feel like the Merric archetype is somewhat real and helpful because there's definitely some early male mages that just get a shit ton of dev favoritism (Merric gets a PRF, Asvel is ... Asvel, Clanne has the best speed in early engage and very very high SP (though this isn't really relevant post 1.0 engage), Lugh's the only half-accurate growth unit you get for like a third of the game, and so on), whereas with someone like Erk or Yubello or FE9 Soren or Ricken, they don't really have that sauce factor that sets them apart.
Merric amd Asvel get PRFs but no other first mage gets favoritsm (Clanne has 300 sp, which is not a lot). Two units with something on common doesn't make for an archetype.
@@DaniDoyle Eh, fair enough. I will say tho, 300 sp at level 1 is quite a bit, it's tied for like second most SP/level in Engage after Alear's 500 at level 1.
To me the "Merric archetype" is used to describe Kaga's favorite wind mage with green hair, Merric, Lewyn, Ced kinda, Asbel, Ced again I guess but not really he joins too late and that's kind of it. Theodel from Vestaria saga maybe ? I wouldn't count Maruj because...idk. His hair is not green I guess ? Also, like Lewyn and Ced he is not the lord's friend. What's a Merric again ?
Is Soren secretly a Merric ? He is a wind mage, has a bit of sauce if you are lucky with adept and knows the main character.
I actually don't know a single person who uses a "Merric archetype" so if you have a different idea of what it is supposed to mean I'm all ears.
You including Clanne in the "dev favoritism" mage club when the only thing going for him is good speed is certainly a choice
@@candybunny2462 1.0 Clanne literally had so much SP he could afford to get Mag+2 AND Canter before Celica and Sigurd left if you played your cards right; Don't hate the player, hate the game.
1.0 Clanne was the best of the 3 pre-pandreo mages because of his ability to hit insane stacks early on (3 levelups before chapter 5 and a tonic gets him doubling every enemy on the map), his good SP, and his ability to still take advantage of bonded shield and not have to stack to more unreasonable numbers like a vantage Citrinne would have to do on occasion. (IMO IMO)
Goddammit you got me with the romhack propaganda
Excellent 😈
FE archetypes are like personality tests irl. They have a notable utility in assisting discourse, but when they start to frame discourse, we get some weird conclusions and results.
@@ultimapower6950 Do you have a siege tome or ballista?
@@ultimapower6950 Good enough I guess.
"A brief look"
Video is nearly 2 hours
Epic
I mean, it's shorter than that "quick restrospective on Oblivion" lmao
People calling late game prepromotes Ests is actually baffling to me. In what world are Veyle, Mauvier, and Syrene even remotely close to Ests?????
I haven't a clue
Syrene can be raised, similar to Cecilia & Isadora, as low level underpowered prepremote. I wouldn't call them an Est either, but maybe in a league of their own, possibly including Echidna
@@allenkeettikkal3149Gotohs aren't late game prepromotes, they're end game anti soft lock measures like Athos in FE7
@@allenkeettikkal3149 90% of units that join late game are prepromotes
@allenkeettikkal3149 but Syrene is a ok unit not a good one so she's not a Gotoh, but she is the 3rd Peg Sister of the Peg Trio
Came for the frank discussion on fire emblem categorization, stayed for the slow descent into unravelling madness
Fun fact! In Russian, "есть" or "est" in English letters, means "to be", "there is", or "there exists". This is a good way to describe Ests, because they certainly do exist :)
Fun fact : In French, Est is also just the word ''To be''. The damning evidence is piling up.
This is also the case in Latin. What could Kaga have meant by this....
@@DaniDoyle SUM, ES, EST, SUMES, ESTIS, SUNT!
I AM, YOU ARE, HE IS - WE ARE, YOU(all) ARE, THEY ARE! 🎶🎶
My latin teacher made us sing conjugations...
@@blindcocostudios "est" functions gramatically identically to "is"
you could also translate it as east i guess
In American "est" means Ohio Standard Time
I responded "no" to the low base stat question (question #4) due to the wording. Units such as Nino or Est herself do have very high base stats *for their level*, but not for your army at that point in the game. Thus, defining "low bases" could be different depending on your reference point.
Oh yeah, Est and Nino have higher stats that their level implies (compared with people like Sophia, Lilina and the FE1 mid game mercenaries, that are actually closer to the class bases).
Yup, there is a huge difference between having Radd bases and Zeiss bases.
One has bad bases for his level, the other has great bases, both for his level and the chapter he appears; and then there is Nino, that has bad bases for the moment where she join, but if you threw her in chapters where you get other Level 5 units, she would be so competent that she would be without a doubt be your best mage, at least until Pent's arrival, she has the strenghts of both Lucius (better Mag/Spd) and Erk (better weapon) in a single unit
He probably should have worded it like "do you think Ests need to have low bases at that point of the game?" If you want the same wording.
I feel like dev intentionality is an important factor left out of this video. For example the devs certainly did not expect the average player to suicide bomb Medeus with Tiki, but they definitely intended for you to raise her up. There’s lots of units that the devs want you to use *as though* they are Ests even though their design fails to actualize this. Like Valentina Est’s class bases situation.
I actually did talk about Dev Intentionality, in that I don't believe IS devs almost ever set out to "create an Est" (For example FE1 Est is designed with similar intentions to FE1 Tomas, despite the differences they have in play)
@@DaniDoyle Sorry, in hindsight I framed my point pretty badly. What I really wanted to point out was that I found it odd that Nino is definitely an Est even though training her fails to be rewarding, but Valentina Est fails to be an Est only because the mechanics of the game make it so that she isn’t unique, even though pushing her up to that Falcon Knight promotion is still a lot of work that the devs clearly felt most players would find rewarding.
Valentia Est isn't JUST held back by the mechanics of the game. While they do play a part of her growths and bases are also a factor in why I don't think she's an est.
My favorite thing ever in fire emblem is training bad units so est is easily my favorite archetype, any game’s est is an automatic endgame unit for me
@@McKayla24798 As someone who always, ALWAYS trains up FE7 Rebecca up to at least 15/10, I agree. Crowbarring bad units into places they should not be is the best way to play the game.
Miranda feels like she's designed to be an Est, but Thracia's mechanics really don't fit that type of unit design. One of my favorite aspects of this is that her unique Mage Knight promotion is actually a bit of a downside for endgame, since she loses movement indoors compared to her base class. And considering an Est is supposed to have their best performance in endgame, that's really bad for her
What I got out of this video is:
The Est archetype exists as the Nino archetype, and it's a romhack archetype more than a mainline series one
Note that I was also one of the people who said that they didn't think Est was a real archetype in the survey, so do with that information what you will
FE12 Est probably deserves to belong in "Definitely an Est" tier, the comparison to Catria makes her growths not look quite that crazy, but the reason why is just because Catria's growths are also amazing, hers are in the top 10 in the game with 80+ units (If you count the bonus downloadable maps, if not it's still the biggest FE cast)
Meanwhile Est's personal growth total in New Mystery is just flat out the highest, sitting at 325 personal, 5 above Jake's 320, and 15 above Katarina's 310, and as far as specfic categories Est has the highest personal strength growth and then the 2nd highest (tied) personal skill, and then is still in the top ~90th percentile in Speed/Luck, and while her 10% Magic and Resistance look bad, that's actually pretty decidedly above average for FE12 where Magic caps out at 30% personal and Res at 20% personal, her growths are just downright fantastic aside from bulk and then she also has the Triangle Attack for if you want some sort of special utility to be considered an Est
Similarly, though this doesn't change anything about the takeaways, Mauvier's growths are also definitely very good, he has the highest raw total in Engage, in fact the gap between his personal total (345) and the next highest (Anna's 325) is the largest gap between any two adjacent units when ordered from highest to lowest total, and his individual categories are all good his HP/Mag/Dex/Def/Res/Bld are all in the top 10 it's only his Lck/Spd that aren't amazing, obviously he's still not an Est cause his bases are also absurd and he's high level, but his growths are excellent by Engage standards, Engage personal growths are just overall low
High growths and high base level make him a Karel Archetype /s
My guess for the Flayn thing is based on Story, not gameplay. Female character who joins later than most units who needs to be rescued.
Also on Syrene and Juno, my guess is just that the submitters definition is "Late Joining character with unusually bad bases". doing the Oifey thing where the archetype is based on how good a unit is, but instead of being "Jagan's who are good" its "Late game units who have low bases."
The real Est of Engage is looking at an untrained Anna in chapter 20 when you get the Celica Emblem back and thinking "I can make this work"
I just wanna say that I quite literally laughed out loud when I saw that different ests weren't seen universally as ests by the sample graph we answered. Like, I'm sure it's possible that est could be done in a way, in a game that makes her not fit her own archetype... but it's hilarious to me when I see est not be considered an est, true or not.
Ok so I personally agree that zeiss isnt an est
HOWEVER
On normal mode, zeiss has terrible stats. Yes, hard mode bonuses make zeiss way too strong for an est... but hard mode isn't the only mode. On normal mode his only stat above 10 is strength... everything else sucks.
The bigger issue for zeiss, in my opinion, is the growths. They aren't anything special, and this is the same reason I don't count Sophia as an est.
Eat probably doesn’t match most people’s definition of an Est archetype because nobody has played FE1. Est has very good bases in FE1. I’d wager that for most people, the first time they ever heard of the Est archetype was in regards to Nino, and so they built up their idea of what the archetype was based on Nino. Honestly it’s more the Nino archetype than the Est archetype.
@@DuelingShade no need to explain it, I did watch the whole video after all
So I didn't respond to your survey but I can give a reason why someone might think low base stats aren't necessary for being an est.
It depends on how you define bad base stats. I'm pretty sure you'll define them as "far lower than the units I have at the time" but it could also mean "lower than what a unit should have at the level they're at" and Ests actually usually do quite well in the second category.
That's an interesting perspective, and might explain things, thank you!
I absolutely second this, and to build on it a bit and put it simply: it’s relative. I think that every est should come with at the very least usable stats, which is my I think units like sophia can be an absolute hassle. If you do end up giving a good stat, it could be something like Ziess’s supporting offense’s or even magic piercing potential, which is the only thing that saves sophia and nino. Shoutout to sigrid from the rom hack vision quest too for being one of the best est’s I’ve ever used.
9:00 I always viewed The Est as a unit that would be good if you had gotten them earlier in the game but they join significantly later and need a lot of commitment and resources to be on par or better than the rest of the army. It's fine if they have good bases for their class if they are significantly lower level and/or unpromoted. they need to be shit when they join but with high potential if invested in.
The thing with the awakening kids is that they have a soft order due to the lack of level scaling in paralogues, so owain will always have unpromoted units while nah gets a bunch of counter warriors leading some to be pushed later into the est recruitment window.
I've always had a uniqe realtion to the est archetype, I played fe echoes not knowing what an "est" was and I somehow missed recruiting palla and catria so est was actually the first pegasus I found on celica's side of the game, by the time I got confused and looked up where to recruit her sisters, I had babied est enough to where she had surpassed them and ended up becoming one of my defining pegasi.
Est = Character with High PERCEIVED Growth Rates that joins late and weak, thus you pay more attention to their Level Ups than other units.
I just never thought of L’rachel as an est ever. She’s good from the go. Like staff on horse good. It’s fun to train her to Valkyrie but even when I do she still just mostly staffing.
I actually wouldn't lump all of Awakening's gen 2 into one category because I find that in reality their availabilities are all over the place. Due to the placement of Paralogues on the Valm side of the map, you actually can't access Gerome or Brady's chapters until later on in the game (unless you also unlock a bunch of other Paralogues). Often these later child units will need more than just a promotion to be on par with everyone else. Another factor is the awkward balancing of the Paralogues themselves. Noire is available right after Chapter 13, but the enemy power level of her map is more comparable to Chapter 18, so it can be difficult to clear the map and save Noire. (Both these issues are fixed in Fates)
I agree that Morgan probably isn't an Est, but I would say Gerome and Noire are. Both of them have relatively delayed recruitments and are high-growth units that struggle to really contribute alone at first. Gerome has the traditional painfully late recruitment (not helped by the fact that you need to start an S-support from Chapter 12) while Noire gets placed in the middle of several promoted fliers that she can't even OHKO reliably. In higher difficulty playthroughs with minimal grinding, you really start to feel their Est-ness.
If the Merric archetype actually existed, it would be FE1/FE3B1/FE11 Merric, Asbel, and if you wanna stretch it a bit, FE3B2/FE12 Linde, and if you wanna be funny, Lewyn!Arthur :3
Basically, early game mage with unique tome if you wanna fit all 4 in lmao
First off, Nino being the most definitive Est is hilarious.
Second...
Hortensia is a character that does have decently high growths, from what I remember. However, using her, it was mostly for cheesing maps with water and her staff usage. She never really excels in combat at any point, which I feel is a necessary part of a late-term Est. There are elements of an Est, but I wouldn't say it's definitive.
Ena (In PoR) is more of a punishment for not beating Black Knight with Ike. If you do, you get Nasir who is much better than Ena. It's not even like a replacement unit. You need to defeat Black Knight to get Nasir, the better unit. Doing so passes the opportunity for Ena. It's weird, but a fun idea. Not an Est.
What world did people ever consider Catherine a trainee? I really wanna know.
Sending a tiny dragon to her death really is "iconic". Very based.
Case in point, it's really standout how much overlap there is between what people call bad and an Est. Not all bad units are Ests, but the fact so many Ests that really shouldn't be are considered so is telling. Like, seriously? Jesse? You not being able to kill anything doesn't make you an Est.
I have to assume all those Flayn write-ins were from people who think that every archetype has to be in every fire emblem game, so they were trying to figure out who the Est was in 3H and she was the closest they got, rather than considering the idea that 3H just doesn't have anybody who fits the pattern (because all your units are either available in the early game, or pre-promoted)
I’d say that on any route that doesn’t start with Black Eagles, Ferdinand Von Aegir is the Est. He’s amazing if you put work into him but his recruitment cost is awkward and high.
@@maxspecs Except that students in 3H level up in background; recruiting him late means he's high level with high base stats, so there's never a period of weakness. And every unit in 3H is powerful if you put the work into them; his growths are above average but not as high as somebody like Petra, Ingrid, Ignatz, or Leonie, and without any real dramatic standouts. Instead of a 'zero to hero' arc he just goes from a solid unit to a moderately more solid unit.
And his recruitment threshold is 10 points in Dex, which Byleth is likely to have at level 2, when somebody like Hilda is asking for 30 points of Cha (and is actually unavailable in the first half of one of her routes).
I guess if you never study Armor then getting a C rank there might feel like a trial, but imo you should be training that anyway if you have any free time because the weight reduction is basically a +3 Spd and qualifying for Armor Knight (even if you have no intention of fighting as one) brings your Def up to a minimum 12 at level 10, a significant boost for all but the toughest units.
There might be an argument to be made for Hilda or Cyril in the Silver route, but I'm pretty sure that 3H just does not have any Est in it.
NOT AKIRA BEING THE WORST TH-camR ON THE PLATFORM LMFAO
Minor correction: During Fae's section you mention her utility as a status staff baiter due to her apparent low res, and while her "low" def/res are what makes her nice as a siege tome/ballista bait unit, status staves don't care about their target's stats (in gba)
As long as their target is valid (ie they dont silence non-magic units), they actually go in reverse deployment order, which is very silly but also true (you can see this most obviously with sophia/cecilia getting first priority for being sleep/silence staff'd in ch14)
Good video but i am nonetheless a pedant
"a brief look at ests", 1 hour and 47 minutes lol, but good video regardless.
40:00 Wait how does Hugh have better growths than Zeiss? Zeiss has an overall higher growth total and only really loses out to Hugh by a 10% lower speed growth?
I get that Speed is a better stat than strength or skill, but saying that Zeiss has worse growths than Hugh is a HUGHge stretch.
Yea, probably a bit of an exaggeration on my part
If "Est" is a thing, we are the ones that are Ests, for overanalyzing games we arrived in to very late. There's sure to be a payoff from that.
TRUE
I'm just more shocked about ests as a whole I find trainees to be est units but the amount of bad units called est is kinda insane I think est as the series moved forward have them be more early game nowadays like Jean from engage
I clicked the video where are my speed growths? My ironman run is dying and I need assistance
Please wait up to 25 days for speed growth
I remember when I answered the poll I wrote something half as a joke, half having no coherent thoughts about Ests' naming conventions and it being kinda weird since (at the time) the only character who I would actually recognize as an Est was just Nino, but as the video progressed it somehow made sense.
Imo Est as an archetype is kinda subjective (and personally making Ests' existance dependant on hackroms is somewhat cheating), but even so I'd still say that it has more validity as a concept than Oifey just because the idea of a shitty late unit you have to train in order to get a good unit sounds coherent, while on the other hand saying "hey this pre-promote has 2 more str and 10% more spd growth than Yaygen, he's def an Oifey" is just silly, goofy even.
I don't think that the Est name should stick tho; Nino better embodies the whole idea, and not every archetype should be named after a FE1/3 character, besides I think she drives the point better than Est since pretty much everyone knows Nino as a unit.
P.S.: We should popularize the use of the "Merric archetype" to annoy veteran players. We shall define it as the early-game mage that gets outclassed by a promoted late-game magic-user.
the low base stats question's weird response I think is a problem with the question itself. what does "low" mean in this context? Low for their class? Low for your army at the moment? The second they definitely should, being weak compared to the rest of your army is the defining trait. But low in relation to other units base stats at that level isn't necessarily needed at all.
"Oh, another Dani Doyle Video. Says its only a brief loo--Why do I hear God Shattering Star in the background?"
10/10 thumbnail deseves a like for that alone
I've answered questions four with no, cause i think of "bad bases" in relation to a units level, so an unpromoted level 1 unit joining in chapter 23, could have good bases for being level 1 and also could be an est. If they have good bases gor their joining time, then they are no ests.
Something i think worth noting is that sometimes characters are intended to be ests but kind of fail because of stat distribution. I think lina falls into this, personally. Shes incredibly shit even when given massive favoritism, but something worth noting is that she does have a massive magic growth, larger than many unpromoted mages. She also has access to the levin sword which is good right??? levin pegs are fun and cracked!!! ...well she also has 2 mastery, so even after promo she needs 3 mastery levels at 35% or a valuable mastery potion. Just something worth noting, i think.
I must disagree with you on Zeiss, I believe that Hard mode bonuses should be disregarded in this discussion as I believe some kind of intention is needed when determining an Archetype and FE6 player unit HMBs are a glitch that only appear on reinforcements, as such Zeiss is meant to have his normal mode stats in hard mode.
Zeiss has 28 hp, 14 strength, 9 skill, 8 speed, 6 luck, 12 defense, 2 res, 10 con and D lances... D LANCES
most of these are worse than Melady at base who has 2 more hp 2 less strength 2 more skill, 2 more speed, 1 less luck 1 more defense, 1 more res 1 less con, and C lances, a much better unit, a few chapters earlier, however I'd argue Melady has higher quality stats despite the strength loss, has the option to instantly promote, and is around for longer as such gets Exp before Zeiss and does more things for you,
Juno also out performs Zeiss in all stats aside strength [she only has 3 less lol], defense and con lol [actually at base she's got stronger combat because she can use better weapons [she has A lances so you can give her silvers and braves] and she can double middling to low speed enemies]
It's also very unlikely to get Zeiss to anything above B by the point Juno joins
Full Price Hugh is also just has better combat at base with 1 less point in magic, but beats him out in all stats aside hp, and def, however his 4 point speed lead and only having 3 less defense he ends up being not even that much worse he also hits on res making him do more damage, he also has higher W.Rank at C so he can use higher might weapons and has enough con to not lose speed, he can also insta promo and will have 17 magic and 13 afterwards further eclipsing Zeiss, Hugh will also have a guaranteed 2 point speed lead on an average Level 10/1 Zeiss, Hugh also gets enough def to be able to take a hit or two, but Zeiss definitely beats him here.
Also Zeiss can't really partake on his join map, because he's in the top right corner so you've likely already killed most of the enemies by the time you recruit him so he's likely to only make major contributions on the next map, but wait this is the route spilt, if you're going Illia you probably used a pegasus and already have trained fliers, while if you go Sacae Zeiss has to contend with the Law [Bows so many bows], however it's still not impossible to use him just unoptimal, and will require some babying.
However Zeiss still does have pay off for training him, He will exceed Melady on average when both are around level 10/5 or 10/6, sooner or later depending on promo levels, he also has flier utility that can be useful.
With this I find Zeiss matches up with your assessment with FE1 Est, having growths on par with the rest of the cast however still in important stats, Zeiss may even work better as he will gain more EXP with FE6's exp formula.
Overall yes Zeiss is at least a consideration for being an est if you consider normal mode, the mode most people have played and the one with his intended stats.
As a side note HMBs are weird in GBA FE, In FE6 they are a glitch only appearing on recruitable reinforcements, while in FE7 they are 100% intentional appearing on all recruitable enemies, then in FE8 they decided player unit HMBs where a mistake and removed them.
As a side, side note Did you know Juno actually has an unpromoted palette in the final game, perhaps she was meant to be more est-like, it would explain her horrid stats.
Why are we disregarding HMBs? Whether or not they are a glitch, they are unavoidable (unlike mine glitch or other exploits) so they are a part of the game on all playthroughs where you do not modify the cartrage. This isn't even a case like Percival where you have the option to recruit Zeiss without HMBs, he'll always have them. You could make the argument that Zeiss is only good because of hard mode bonuses (and I agree with this argument to be clear) but I think that also applies to several other strong units (Milady, Tate, Klien and Shin all get a lot worse without HMBs).
@@DaniDoyle my thoughts are more based on developer intentions, or at least my perception of them, this is why I feel for this topic normal mode stats and comparisons work better. It's what was intended fo the unit's gameplay.
The way Zeiss was intended to act is very much est like at least in my opinion, the way I see it is that let's say, fe 7 nino got similar hard mode bonuses, would she stop being an est, yeah probably on hard mode anyway but she'd still be one on normal at least, and she'd still be designed like one. This is the position I feel Zeiss is in. He seems to very much be intended for this kind of role and he fills it on normal but on hard he's a very different unit. Unlike melady and perceval who still perform the same way Zeiss just doesn't.
FE6 Karel is an est, dont @ me
I don't know of an example of a character that would fit this but I have an idea of an Est that might have good bases: if they are a class or use a weapon type that has poor matchups when they arrive.
So you need to navigate the maps well until they can promote or earn something in their kit to become a better unit. Maybe FE4 Lachesis and Leif dont really technically fall in est but their stat growths are less impactful than their future promotion
Maybe if I simp enough for Rosado he'll be good. Anyways, incredible video
Give Gaiden Est the Angel Ring and watch her quickly become a goddess, trust me🙏
An Est with low base stats wouldn't be a project unit, they'd be a meme unit. I don't care if you have 10% more growths across the board, if you have 4 less stats across the board, in the end, you're average at best AND need extra babying.
Ests NEED high base stats. If not, their growths need to be Myrrh-level. To use an Est example,FE:Echoes "Est" is actually the average of the three pegasisters. You can argue she's got good Luck growth, but realistically, she's the 2nd-best of the sisters if you look at growths alone, she's lower in many growths than her sisters. But that starting level of 3... Beautiful. Level down Palla 5 levels, to bring her to level 3, at their growth averages, and Est is notably stronger: Her base stats would be a full 6 points higher! When most of your stats sit around 50% growth, that means Est is literally two levels of stats higher than Palla. Est at level 3 is the same strength as Palla at level 5. But their growths? Nearly identical. And Est's main "bad" stat is HP, which would be bumped into the average on promotion, meaning her bad growth rate stat doesn't actually matter, while the others likely wouldn't see many stat jumps.
Echoes Est is an Est, by definition, she's literally Est. But the only reason she's an Est is HIGH base stats (and her weakest stat being one that can be easily fixed thanks to the weird promotion system), not low ones.
I think it could be funny if we could get a label to refer to weird edge cases of units that aren't precisely Est, but feel like Est because they fit most of the usual criteria (being low level, unpromoted, have unique appeal, specially at promotion), but aren't really weak for the moment they arrive, and in fact, are comparable to units that appear alongside them (even promoted ones); which it the case for Sara, Zeiss, and a few that maybe I'm missing.
Also, I think a lot of people refer to bad characters as Est because they don't want their favorite characters to feel worthless people that only exist to die in Ironman, they want their characters to have a purpose, the idea of your favorite character only purpose is to die (or to add difficulty in a ranked run) is quite sad.
Specially if your character isn't bad in a funny way like say, Arden, if you character is bad just because is bad, and doesn't have any meaning that... it makes their existence feel like a twisted joke to mess with the people that could like them.
On the subject of base stats for an Est, I don't think low bases are a necessity, because Est herself doesn't have low bases in FE1, she has better bases than Catria in fact, and only 1 point differences from Palla, and she's at a lower level than Palla, and only joining 4 chapters later. Meaning it's entirely possible she joins on par to both if you haven't specifically grinded them over anyone else from favoritism.
Est joins perfectly able to fight, but she's unimpressive because she's average when you have heavy hitters trained up already like Cain, Abel, and Minerva.
I do think Pelleas is an Est, but i dont think having the best growths is requirement to be an Est, just that theyre an underleveled unit pretty far from promo (needing 9 levels, unless you crow him for some reason???) that joins late that has good growths (not really stand out), bad bases, and levels quickly.
> People saying Mauvier and Vayle are Ests
*Spits out water*
Come on guys. Rosado is the Est of Engage... and even he is debateable. [I'd say he is an Est; he's just handicapped by Engage's systems. Put him in ANY other game and he's a textbook Est]
And Flayn is not an Est; she's just a bad unit.
One of the reasons someone might have said an Est doesn't need bad bases might be confusion on what you're scale you're judging the bases. What I mean is that if you mean bases for the chapter, then yeah, it's definitely mandatory for an Est IMO, but if you mean bad for their level then I don't think thats a necessity. For the sake of argument let's say that the average stats for a level 1 base class unit in this game has 20 HP and 5 in all stats. Each unit has variation but that's the average of all of them. Then you get to the last third of the game and all your units are in the late teens of their relevant stats and you pick up a unit who is level 1 and has 22 HP and 8 in all their stats then that unit has really bad bases for that chapter, but for their level they have great bases and if they have good growths that turn them into a powerhouse after you put a little work into them then they're definitely still an Est
Lol I'm not complaining but the video being called a *BRIEF* look into Ests, that did shock me to notice the video is almost 2 hours long
As someone who plays all 3 GBAs religiously, i was about to defend zeiss... until i realized he is still broken because... well, dragon.
Imo EST is not a real archetype for the FE devs but trainees are. In their heads I think both trainees and ESTs are the same archetype for them. They’d probably label Nino as a trainee
The real question is what the remakes have against Est
😢 asking the REAL questions...
Renault is an est because he can very easily get s rank light, which DOES have genuine endgame utility (I’m joking but I do love Renault)
34:50 What is this?! This is not est, this is the glassiest cannon to ever cannon! Her defensive stats and growths are beyond abysmal (on average she has... 1 def at lvl 20 and 19 HP) while her offensive stats are through the roof! This is hilarious, i love it.
Should we make Sara archetype for glass cannons in Fire emblem series?
Edit - oh yeah its unpromoted. Still, shes glass-cannony as heck, even with +5 def on promotion.
Sara is one of the biggest examples of Thracia's very unique unit design, she is... wack, in the best way possible.
She is technically a growth unit, having the best growth in every stat except physical, and having the most bonkers promotion in the game (Sage bonuses are insane! she also gets Adept BTW), but she is already useful before promotion, in a way, Sara is what could happen if Nino arrived 4 levels higher and could already uses high rank Staves before promotion.
She is insane, and that makes her a very fun unit, she has part of the appeal of an Est (she is umpromted and has potential to become your best unit in the whole army), but she is already so good at base, that giving her time to growth and unlock her full power isn't really a big grind.