SMALL AMPS and The Future of Class D in HiFi! + the Eversolo F2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- 🔌 Welcome to Episode 07 of UNPLUGGED with Andrew & Kristi! We discuss the FUTURE of CLASS D + answer your questions from our Eversolo F2 Review! Watch it here: • Are SMALL AMPS Taking ...
🔌 Considering the F2? Find one here: bit.ly/3PZzdnf - For everything else, click MORE 👉to open the description below!
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🔌 IN EPISODE 07 OF UNPLUGGED with Andrew and Kristi
EverSolo F2 Amp: bit.ly/3PZzdnf • bit.ly/4aw7lzr
Cornwall IVs bit.ly/3HVYiuh
Bowers & Wilkins 801 Signatures bit.ly/4aH9d8B
Aiyima T9 Pro bit.ly/3UB5JyZ
48v Power Supply Brick bit.ly/3UwDJMB
Fosi Audio BT20A Pro bit.ly/3ATmCKm
SMSL A50 Pro bit.ly/44aVowR
Fosi Audio V3 Mono bit.ly/3UsIjvo
Emotiva BasX A2 bit.ly/3uRu9o1
Technics SU-GX70 bit.ly/3LRJ3pd
Rotel A11 MKII bit.ly/3Qk5Egx
Yamaha 2000A amzn.to/3RLVbK0
Polk Audio R200 bit.ly/3iN17kS
Bowers & Wilkins 600 Series bit.ly/36B5QjE
Focal Aria Evo X N2 bit.ly/4akgCus
Q Acoustics Entry bit.ly/414RFP5 • bit.ly/q3020iA
Q Acoustics Concept 50 bit.ly/3Ha2ya0
Crown Amp amzn.to/3uZ3UMx
Emotiva Differential Amp bit.ly/44hFf8Y
Also shown
SONY 98” TV bit.ly/3Nd7LkL
Revel M16 bit.ly/37whl0e
DIAGNOSTICS
Measurement Tools: bit.ly/3MsYzpR
Room EQ Wizard
🔌 SMALL AMPS and The Future of Class D in HiFi! + the Eversolo F2 (EPS 07 VIDEO CHAPTERS)
00:00 UNPLUGGED 07: KRISTI’S THOUGHTS ON THE EVERSOLO F2 AMP
02:00 THE FUTURE OF SMALL AMPS / CLASS D AMPS
15:00 COMPARING the EVERSOLO AMP vs XTZ EDGE AMP
17:30 IS THE EVERSOLO F2 WARM?
18:49 BEST SPEAKERS FOR THE EVERSOLO F2
22:15 MORE EVERSOLO AMP-F2 VIEWER QUESTIONS
24:40 AUDIO MEASUREMENT GRAPHS
📌 OUR HIFI AND HOME THEATER RECs FOR 2024
SPEAKERS STANDS, CABLES & ACCESSORIES
Our Stands bit.ly/3I9Xa5W
My Cables: custom, n/a for purchase
Similar DIY Cables: bit.ly/3uytNrV
Interconnects: bit.ly/3D314M8, bit.ly/3N6NBri
Cable Management amzn.to/3ZcunWP • amzn.to/3GJtf5C
POWER
Yamaha ($$) bit.ly/3RGwr6d ($) bit.ly/3RLCIPT
LOUDSPEAKERS
Focal ($) bit.ly/3KpemqE
Q Acoustics ($$) bit.ly/406YIoU
KEF ($$$) bit.ly/3A72HY4
TURNTABLE & DAC/STREAMER
TT2 bit.ly/3tWwdxd
Z8 bit.ly/44e0h6P
TVs
QLED: bit.ly/44htvlo
BIG: bit.ly/47xtPhI
HOME THEATER
Receiver: bit.ly/3DyHEjb
Soundbar: bit.ly/43OfVWi ($) bit.ly/3N5KhxG ($$)
In Ceiling Speakers: bit.ly/3I3gAbg
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🔌Watch our EverSolo Amp review to get caught up on today’s UNPLUGGED! th-cam.com/video/JKTnJ_S1v-Q/w-d-xo.html
📌Considering the AMP-F2? Find it here bit.ly/4aw7lzr • bit.ly/3PZzdnf
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🙏 Please stay on topic and be respectful. 🚫No links, self-promotion, or personal info.
I run Hypex N core class D mono blocks 2 x 270 W in 4 ohm - 2x 130W in 8 ohm. What a wonderful sound!
Yep, I have great Class A/B (Parasound 2125v2, Arcam AVR5) and shitty Class A/B (Emotiva BasX-A3, Denon x3700H).
I also have great Class D (NAD C298 which is similar to NAD M23, Parasound Zonemaster 2).
Apple Music lossless
Have I expressed how bad i want a Velveeta brand preamp to pair with Rotel and Mission just to have a chips and queso system? I mean, this is the partnership we didn't know we needed.
HAHAHAHAHA.
Fast fashion is actually a really good analogy to what’s happening. And like fast fashion, we as consumers should be thoughtful about the waste being generated by being overly consumptive of these products. Clothing and textiles are already a major problem, but the kind of chemicals being used that leach out of these things when they’re in dumps are on a whole Nother level of damage. Food for thought.
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts and for watching!
What do you think can be done to change it.
@@r423sdex I think sustainability scoring our hobby would actually be a good thing. It makes the further point that durability isn’t just about dollar value - it’s also for a better world. Something worth bringing up at the expos and conferences and generating a score that takes various factors into account.
Good morning! I had a rough night's sleep so I'm just getting my day going. Andrew is a saint and let me sleep in. I hope everyone is having a great day. We really appreciate you watching!
Everyone I talked to today seemed to have a crap sleep. Sorry you had a rough night too. I took our dog out at 5 am for his walk instead of my wife who said she didn't have the zoom to take him this morning. Got another couple of hours to finish this week off. Always look forward to all your episodes and reviews. Plugged and Unplugged! Cheers from Ian in Canada!
@@user-ml9jj7bw5o Thank you so much for saying hello and watching! Here's hoping to everyone having a restful weekend.
Sorry to hear that ma’am! Hopefully you can have some good rest today and some better sleep tonight! Wishing you both a lovely day!
@@gavriushka Appreciate that!! You have a good one!
@@KristiWright I hope your sleep tonight is a better, more restful and regenerative nod. My sleep has been derailing my days lately so I get it.
I love these after review commentaries. Keep up the good work you two!
Thanks so much, Carlos! So glad you enjoy the show!
I have traditional tube, and power amps. RIGHT now I’m running 2 Fosi Audio ZA3 IN mono and they’re really doing a GREAT job. I did swap out the OPAMPS.
I’m not going to sell my other gear, but I must say I am enjoying these amps.
That's all that matters. Curious why you bought more amps when you had amps and whatnot already? (BTW, not trying to pick a fight, just curious what motivates folks.) Thanks for tuning in!
Interested in the opamp swap. Which opamp and how would you describe the difference?
@@andrewrobinsonreviews LOL I know you’re not picking a fight.
Well, I bought more amps because that was how I was introduced into the space…searching for new sound.
People that I know, said that these amps have merit, so I became curious. I know, I know, they aren’t the equal to class AB but they can still produce pleasurable sound to me. It’s just like tube rolling you roll one tube in and see how it sounds and say, “hhmmmm, what does this other tube sound like.
I’m still searching for sound that moved me, like the first time I heard KLH model nine electrostats.
@@34332 I swapped in Dual Discrete Op Amp SS3602 by Sparcos Labs. And YES, they cost more than the amps. What they did, was open up the soundstage…it was noticeably wider and there was a little bit more space between the instruments.
when I played them with my Q Acoustics 3030i bookshelves, they opened up.
AGAIN, it wasn’t earth shattering, but it was different, and I leaned back and I looked at my speakers and I said “OK this is really cool.”
Happy Friday Kristi and Andrew ✌️
Thanks for tuning in! Hope your Friday is going well!
One of the things I appreciate most about your episodes is your experienced, professional and knowledgeable comments backed up by full disclosure measurements. You are NOT a BS artist. Keep up the great work Andrew! We love what you do here. And always love both your opinions. You do good work! Cheers!
Awesome video, great conversation, and thank you so much for choosing my question. ❤️ Very honored! You know, part of your conversation rightly focused on this new dynamic around cheap audio equipment being churned out quickly and how the buying habits of even enthusiasts have changed a little bit toward these products. I would like to know your thoughts as to whether you think that listening habits are also contributing to this. In other words, IMHO the average consumer's expectation of quality audio seems uniquely different than 10 years ago. (And is that also happening to enthusiasts?) Thoughts?
This is good conversation! Price point is a manufacturer's bottom line and the more expense, the less obtainable result. That stated, I hear the difference in a torodial power source to others as an more clear and the larger it is the better as it avoids signal compression with lots of head room. I am willing to spend up to a point for the sound I like.
I've been in the hifi game for almost 50 years. I've owned reference gear in the 70-80's (class A, tubes...), no gear so to speak in the early 90's, slowly getting back into hifi in the late 90's (Rega, Cambridge, Rotel, Naim, etc) I finally settled down on a Naim XS2 which I've owned for about ten years. It's not a power house; no huge dynamics, bone rattling bass, ultra detailed highs or velvety mids. Its major strength being that it looks good, is well balanced, doesn't offend in any particular way and has been rock solid reliable. The newer XS3 which is pretty much the same amp with the addition of a phono stage sells for about $4000(5200 CDN +15% taxes here in Canada) On a whim I recently bought the ''class D flavor of the month'' Fosi ZA3 for $129. Long story, short: I haven't used the Naim ever since. So I can only imagine what $4000 worth of class D could get me.
I have an integrated tube amp and tube dac. I also tried the fosi za3 mono setup and was blown away from the sound quality of those little amps. It was rich sounding and wide sound stage, it is pretty good for the money.
My XTZ A2-400 are running for 2 years now without any problems and I couldn’t be happier. They are absolutely amazing.
This was a great and enormously prescient subject and I appreciate your analysis and thoughts on the proliferation of entry-level audio. Keep having these conversations - they are important. I view Fosi as the Chevy Bolt vs. Hypex as the Tesla of clas D. Class D is to electric vehicles as Class A/B is to combustion. Both categories have high end and can be very satisfying.
IMO, I like the sound and feel of pistons and fuel.
Class A, B, AB, and D amplifiers utilize different circuit designs to enhance efficiency, minimize noise and distortion, optimize current use, and reduce interference, demonstrating significant technological advancements. In blind listening tests, where participants are only exposed to the sound without any visual cues or equipment information, it is challenging for most people to identify the type of amplifier used, the cables, or discern the specifics of the audio source such as bit rate and frequency.
Most people are influenced by what they see rather than solely by what they hear, essentially "listening with their eyes." Regardless of the type of amplifiers or speakers, personal preference and comfort are paramount, as the appreciation of sound is inherently subjective. Modern amplifier technology has evolved to a point where most individuals cannot detect distinct advantages or flaws based solely on listening; perceived differences are often influenced by visible equipment specifications or reviews. In audio setups, speakers, the acoustical environment, and their placement are the most direct and noticeable factors affecting sound perception.
I think I purchased an XTZ Edge A300 at your recommendation way back. It’s a small amp that I’ve been very happy with. May even add a second at some point. Scandinavian design. Still available. Affordable. Open box deals.
28 seconds ago... so fresh. Always good to see you guys. Now, it's time to watch the video... hehe ;-)
Enjoy the show!
Super late on this one, but I really enjoyed the conversation. My take is that the "smaller amp" companies can bring these products to market at such low prices because many of them use their consumers to do most of the research and dev for them. That has to be a huge saving. There's no team of experienced employees to pay, fewer employee taxes, less insurance and other benefits to cover. It makes it a lot easier to understand how a company like Fosi can then do a Kickstarter campaign and bring in over $200K in a few days and everybody sees it as a huge hit. Whatever they paid the reviewers to push their product has to be a drop in the bucket compared to the more traditional cost of advertising. If one of them happens to catch a potential problem (as you pointed out), they can say don't worry, it won't affect your unit and end up looking like some kind of Audiophile Jesus.
It's actually genius! They can pass those expenses on to their customers who either don't notice or don't care because the only thing that matters is they saved a dollar. What makes me laugh is knowing some of them are probably the same people who complain about low pay and inflation and the biggest boogie man, the border crisis.
Audiophile Jesus. That needs to go on a t-shirt.
+💯
I love my Class D receiver and it's over 8 years old!! I can only imagine how much they've improved since.
What thrills me most with mine is/are the dynamics. Such a joy.
Loved y’all’s video and perspective❤. I also enjoyed reading some of the comments and differences across opinions. I think it can be healthy to engage in respectful conversation, and absolutely love when us humans listen to understand each other. Thanks!
Sorry I am late! But I had to watch Sunday’s video before I could watch this!!💞
Another great unplugged. Thank you!!!
Thank you for watching!
Thanks for watching!
I would love to see a video where Andrew and Kristi just sit and talk about what their understanding and experience is of all the little parts and details that come together to make the sound of products. Like just a discussion on what does “warm” mean to you guys each and some examples, or a discussion about “transparency” or whatever other things make up a sound and just have a discussion about it ✨ I’d love to see that
All the different hifi terms 👌
Cheers and happy Friday. Nice that this in time for my lunch break!
Awesome! So glad to catch you at the perfect time!
Man, something good to watch when I get home. Can’t wait
Hope you enjoy the show when you get home!
Afternoon Andrew & Kristi 👍👍
Good morning KJ ! Thanks for joining us this fine Friday!
Hi KJ!
Class D, and its close cousin, H, have been in use for over 40 years. Done with care, they achieve low distortion levels that leave A, A/B in the dust. The high frequency carrier is immune to all the unavoidable drawbacks of pure analog amps. For those who absolutely need fidelity, such as professional mixers, it’s the only way to go. Only the ‘hi-fi’ dullards seem to miss this obvious point.
300 sq ft room, Zu Audio DW6(12 ohm nom. 95 db SPL) powered by 2 Fosi ZA3's, home built tube preamp, will easily reach 95 db's for hours without faltering. My VTL tube monoblocks have been sitting idle for months now.
I really like the unplugged videos. Think the interaction with the community (commenters) and the deepening of the subject is really nice and informative. Darko used to do something like it in his “10 more thoughts” or “dear John” videos but sadly stopped doing it. Thanks and am looking forward to the next one!
My very amateur take on class D Amps: They're exciting and they're a really great gateway drug to high-fidelity audio reproduction. The fact that there's always something new that you can actually afford is part of the fun. I think it's great that I can get my 13 year old nephew (who's suddenly really into music) some Floor Standing Jamos, with a subwoofer, amp and streaming DAC, all for under $600.00. And he can switch out speakers, amp, dac, and start to understand how each one affects his overall system, without spending tens of thousands of dollars. It reminds me of Photography in the early 2000s, when DSLRs suddenly made photography - and then with Canon's 5D MII, cinematography - much more accessible. You had lots of companies jump on the sub-professional DSLR bandwagon and all of a sudden, you could buy a rebel t2i for $175, and reasonably approximate what the 1D was doing for $10,000.00. If you got really into photography, you would recognize the limitations of your equipment and want to upgrade your lenses, bodies, kits, etc. But if you were just trying to capture your camping trip with the kids and actually be able to see what's in the pictures at night, then you were fine with what you knew to be an inferior product because it met your very basic, admittedly less-than-perfect needs.
I think in a similar fashion, we'll see some of the offerings get paired down as Class D Amplification becomes more refined and people know what they're looking for. It's like a democratization of audio. Right now, people are voting with their dollars, buying up every cheap source of power for the equally cheap speakers they can have delivered within two days via Prime. And some of it is pretty great. I have a Nobsound B100 amp for my computer that I just love. I know it's not perfect, but it is better than a lot of solutions that I could've otherwise chosen, and it cost me under $150.00.
Edit: Actually, I just realized that the B100 is a cheap Class A/B amp. Not class D, but the point still stands. It's an imperfect, but also inexpensive solution at under $200.00 that can be replaced easily but does a fine job for what it is.
Another great episode! Do we get a Magic 8 ball to answer some questions with next week's episode? Unplugged really makes the viewer feel more engaged - involved.
I still have a fosi amp in my garage system that shoots sparks out of the power supply when you plug it in. It came with a note that said basically, "we know about the sparks, don't worry about it." I was wondering why they didn't just fix that before selling it, but whatever, it still works now six years later.
Good day, I just got home from work and watched the Lucky#7 episode.. This was an excellent, thought provoking and insightful unplugged. There were some pretty tough questions that gave us ( your audience ) a better understanding as to how you came to your results especially your use of the graph supporting what you were hearing in the review. Thanks for a better understanding as to why you chose your crown and how others used this particular model to bench test the amps they are developing. Consistency is all too important. Yes those Crown amps are solid as I still have my D70 amps since the 80's. Kristi, thank you including my question in today episode of unplugged. Until Sunday, Cheers ...
Always a pleasure, Brian! Thanks for contributing to the conversation.
I have an Aiyima T9 Pro to run some Klipsch KHO7 Outdoor patio speakers. Couldn't be happier. For the price in that environment that set up is amazing. So much so I duplicated the set up in our garage. It's not on the way to making it into my theatre but it's a super great outdoor system. Imaging is particularly good; fidelity is surprising below 90% volume. Running phone Tidal from BT, BT range is also good, it was about 250 dollars all said and done. Love your show guys. Jay
Andrew thanks for the wisdom on speakers and electronics. It helped me start my audiophile journey. Just bought a pair of Evo 4, 4C, Rel Acoustics 1205 Mk II powered by Marantz Cinema 50.
Perhaps having the PSU being a separate "brick" rather than internal to the amp might decrease the impact of the electrical "noise" generated the PSU components on the rest of the audio components in the amp.
Hello Andrew and Kristi! Thanks for bringing up this topic ;) I can fully understand Your point about the quality of the product and being a R&D as a consumer. Valid point. I would like to also share my thoughts as I own two fosi za3 amps in my main stereo system. Probably I am lucky enough having no quality issues with them. Moreover, they replaced my way more expensive AB hybrid amp. Having cambridge cxn as a source and dynaudio special 40, I found this is so far the best matching for my system ever heard. (Before I had a lot of troubles to drive dyn's with other amps).
Always looking forward to see more of Your great contect! Happy to be here cheers! ;)
I bought a Fosi BT 20 A for out in the garage 😊 now it's in the living room ! I've been hooking it up to everything
Yep. Q acoustics work well on everything. Great speakers, especially the cabinets.
Thanks for pointing this out Kristi because when I saw that Eversolo amp I automatically knew that was a Starke amp...I was like 'what is going on here?!!"
Yeah, Eversolo should've done more to differentiate this amp from Starke.
I run a Fiera 8 to power my 4 surrounds and 4 height speakers and have absolutely no complaints... especially at the price Starke often sells it. I have no problem running at Reference Level - which is really too loud for my tastes and I'm using 60% of a large open room for my set up.
I think you make an excellent point at ~13:50 in. I had an older 6th Gen iPad laying around. For a 2-channel setup to stream hi-res audio to a pair of open baffles I'm building:
Old iPad (original cost around $500)
iPad stand w/ PD & USB: $99
Fiio K9 AKM: $529
2 @ Outlaw Audio 2220 Monoblocks: $769 delivered
2 Mogami XLR cables: ~$100
Total cost: $1997 (excluding speakers)
This stuff gets expensive quickly, even when you aren't spending top $$ on individual components.
I bought a pair of ION PA speakers at CostCo last year. At first I was amazed at how good the class D amp sounded. But then I noticed a very obvious hiss no matter what the volume was set to. I returned them. Then I bought a Line6 PowerCab class D powered speaker, and it was amazing. Definitely a keeper for electric guitar modeler FRFR. Eventually I will probably get another one for stereo.
I have a cheap Rockville BLUAMP 2.1 Bluetooth powering 2 Infinity Outrigger Jr outdoor speakers and a cheap 8" passive base tube for my back yard system. It actually works and sounds great!
At the end of the day, Class D is still Class D. My buddy bought the Fosi ZA3 and put it up against his $1500 Deer Creek Hypex, and could not believe that the $100 Fosi was sonically, just about there with the $1500 Hypex. The diminishing returns of Class D. I can say a single Fosi ZA3 ran my Magnepan LRS+ speakers without breaking a sweat, and did sound very good. But! It was still Class D, very sterile and two dimensional. And that is the issue to my ears, that 2D clinical sound. And the rolling R&D on these cheap amps... Key word here is "cheap", and 99% of the time they work as advertised, and can get very close sonically with more expensive offerings, so they sell like hotcakes.
I keep buying class D's like hotcakes. Just ordered #5 with a GaN power supply and upgraded opamps. Amps 6-10 are V3 monos.
I like having A LOT of speakers (used), amps (class D), switches, ps's, tubes, EQ's, pre-amps, dacs and streamers for less than the cost of 1 "good" AB amp.
Amps are ridiculous for the cost/value ratio they provide.
@@mattmiller4978 I agree, I have four of them here, and will more than likely get the V3 monos. They are just too cheap not to purchase.
Love your viewpoints on the analog versus digital amplifiers! I’m still enjoying my SMSL AO200 and DO200 mkII DAC powering two Q Acoustic Concept 20 speakers that I purchased for $249. Then I have a 10” Jamo sub for the low end. After dialing in the sub just so that you hear it, it sounds pretty damn good and plays very loud and clear! I do hear a bit more on the top end with my Yamaha A8A running Monitor Audio Bronze 200 speakers in our living room, but I think those metal tweeters are brighter and a bit more revealing anyway! Both systems are fun to listen to for different reasons, but I would like to get new speakers for 2-channel listening in our living room.
You know, I got the ML XT F100’s 6 months ago and I got an Onkyo RZ50 (open box $890) for my HT set up all ML. Although the RZ sound good with the ML I know I am not getting 100% out of them for stereo music so I have been saving up for an Anthem 225 AMP V2 for the F100’s because I know is an amazing amp combo with the ML’s. Then I see all the rage on these Fosi mono blocks V3 and how amazing the are and handle 4ohm loads with ease. I almost ordered them since they are so cheap but had a bad feeling about doing so. I see your review of the EverSolo and convinced me to get back in to savings mode and just be patient and buy the Anthem amp (I can not find a used one ever), I have a feeling I have not truly heard the full potential of my F100 until I get that Anthem powering them.
Totally agree with all your comments. It's not unlike streaming services. Half the time, the first 3-6 episodes of a new series is totally undercooked. It's starting to change thankfully
My only firsthand experience with class D was a hybrid class D with tube preamp on the Rogue Audio Sphinx. It was a great sounding amp, which ultimately led me to the full tube integrated amp I have now from Black Ice Audio. I love how tubes make things sound more organic and natural. I don't think an all class D design can do this. At least not yet. Personally, before I would buy an all class D design in a low price point I would look at a lower price class A/B design from Schiit Audio.
I also play electric bass guitar as a hobbyist (was once in bands, but that’s not in the cards nowadays) - and have the exact same experience. The Class D sound, even with a multi-12AX7 tube pre-amp, a claimed 2000 Watt bass amp didn’t have the earthiness of a 70-Watt head unit! But I know musicians use them for backups and for small gigs, and they hold their own there. I’m saving up for a good class A tube combo amp that functions as a medium to large practice amp, it was perfect testing it in the store.
Thanks for sharing
Thank you for watching, Craig.
I went with the Sabaj A30a. No power brick. No need for as DAC. A compact all in one solution that sounds great. For $450-500usd it hits the sweet spot IMO.
Great video. I like the small class d amps for certain applications but prefer classic 70s amps. I have a Pioneer SA-8500II integrated amp in my speakeasy. I would love to see more reviews on the classic amps like mine.
I have a pair of Rokit 5 studio monitors, which are small 2 way items that have separate 35W class D amps for each driver. Really excellent and far ahead of previous setups with a Technics A/B class amp and various different speakers. In the application as a desktop speaker, with good control over spacing and focus, they produce a better mid- and top end response than a pair of Krix (can't recall the model) in the lounge room listening environment. they were also very sensitive to placement.
The really impressive thing is the clarity that these things produce, even at very low levels. Obviously it's partly down to the good quality of the drivers, but garbage in/garbage out obviously applies.
Fosi is running a Toyota development model. They are not starting from scratch, they talk to their customers & accordingly refine their product over time. Like, how many Mark versions for a Spitfire in WWII? Many manufacturers don’t really talk to their customers very much & keep on releasing new models built from the ground up. Sounds like GM doesn’t it?
I'm running an Audiocontrol Pantages G4 class H amp connected to a Marantz Cinema 40 for my belayer speakers and use the receiver for my Atmos speakers. I ended up getting the Pantages amp for is small footprint, lightweight (compared to A/B amps) and high power/low heat and I love it. The biggest difference that I have noticed is that all the subtle noises (including ones I didn't previously hear, I've retested before and after with some movies) are more pronounced and my surrounds have become more fuller sound and with more umph. Movies have become more immersive with all the minute details becoming audible now, ex: scene takes place in a house, but you can hear people walking outdoors or birds or crickets chirping like crazy. My surrounds have more rumble and it feels like bass is hitting from the rears now. Years down the road when I replace my current receiver, I'll probably go with a preamp as I already have one amp, and amps usually last many years or decades. Damn, this hobby can be expensive but very satisfying at the same time.....
Congratulations on E7 of Unplugged; yet another great piece of content and conversation, and I appreciate the effort. As I've mentioned many times before, one cannot lose objectivity for equipment applications, and I believe you did a great job in your initial review, as well as your follow-up today. I'm not sure why equipment applciation seems to escape so many, and when put in proper context, I think there's a case to be made that these amps are not the high value many purport.
Having a significant amount of experience with Chinese products, specifically IEM's, and as you mentioned, the Chinese are producing quickly and flooding the market. The result is a very poor level of quality control - no secret there! They take the same approach with IEMS; literally producing a new varient of a specific model every 3-4mos. Therefore, this process requires speed and market testing, not a great approach in my humble opinion.
I think this Class D craze is very similar to the market prior to the EIA establishing some consitency with specifications (1970's I believe). Manufacturer's were producig products and promoting ridiculous specifications. Poorly informed consumers or those freshly embarking upon their audio journey, would not have the knowledge to understand overall performance beyond the specs. I believe these lower cost Class D designs are effecting consumers in a very similar manner; wattage and THD driving those to believe that these little jelly beans will perform identical to Class AB designs of similar specs. Your review touches on this and explains by recommending usage for lower volume levels or desktop applications. And when we consider "tonality," there's likely even a larger void between the two designs.
As with any subjective hobby, new consumers do best to absorb as much information as possible, SUBSCRIBE to your channel, and first focus on properly identifying THEIR NEEDS. This is likely the most important element of the journey; before you can determine if a piece of equipment is appropriate for yourself, you MUST UNDERSTAND your personal needs. As a result, one can minimize the many pitfalls this hobby contains.
Finally, I do believe there is a place for Class D, but it's not currently available at these price points (i.e. the Heaven 11 Billie Amp MkII - $1939 base price). You reviewed this amp many years ago, and I think you should revisit as the timing seems perfect. The Billie MkII has doubled in power (120W 8ohms / 215W 4ohms) with many firmware updates, and as you've likely seen, has received some incredible reviews! I'm actually considering purchasing one for my Martin Logan Quest Z speaks; I believe it may do a wonderful job, AND, if I ever decide to add a stronger outboard 2ch amplifer, it then becomes quite the Class A Preamp!!
Again, great topic and well handled - kudos to both of you! Happy Friday!
I, for one, appreciate FOSI’s business model, in that they are willing to listen to reviewers and customers regarding the issues with their products and attempt to fix them. I think we have seen in the recent weeks that the opposite model is not good. This , of course, is just my opinion and I do understand the “get it right the first time“ perspective.
I'm all for a brand wanting to correct its mistakes and/or improve its products; please do not get me wrong. However, the V3 isn't yet shipping to genuine customers, and Fosi is, quite literally, soliciting R&D advice from ASR (a forum they financially contribute to) for what will be the V3's update or perhaps replacement. They began their solicitation yesterday and admit development is already underway. It just doesn't feel like a "fix" but rather a pump and dump --but that's just my opinion.
@@andrewrobinsonreviews Well no one can accuse you for not bringing the facts with your opinion 😎🙌🏼
Im running 2 x f2 bridged on my a8 into my q acoustic 5050 in a big room and they kick ass!!!
To the point of figuring out the kinks after the product is released. The car companies have done this for decades and consumers don’t seem to care. Extensive R&D would likely drive costs beyond what we are willing to pay. I did the kickstarter on the v3 monos, it’s only $300 CDN with two power supplies, when you have several amps I believe it’s worth experimenting. This is my first Class D so we will see how it goes.
There is no place to lump together
single chip chiFi class-D (ayima etc), with the module amps(ICE/Hypex/pascal/Purify), in the same basket.
Funny that audiophools the CD digital haters crowed, foolishly complain about the audio being chopped up into stairs,
all the while CLASS-AB literally cut the waveform into 2 halves, a positive and a negative, each half is amplified by a separate and different set of devices (p-channel, N-channel, PNP,NPN), and then glued back together using HUGE amounts of feedback to repair the seam (notch distortion, class-b crossover ). and after this explanation, still relish class-ab
I love my class D periFi amp from Buckeye.
You know who I haven’t heard from in awhile? Schiit Audio. I know they have a knack for small form factor desktop gear. They had a lot of buzz a few years ago. Maybe they don’t play in the same space.
Schiit is very anti class d. They actually use this type of language on their product/amp description.
The more you spend on Class D, better performance is apparent. Emotiva & NAD are HiFi worthy, Jeff Rowland & Aavik are top class units. Integrated models have synergy & room saving simplification. It is tomorrow’s topography for today & the future😎.
Just my personal opinion, all these amps (power section) will sound the same under distortion levels when volume matched. I would buy the highest power measured and it has to be load independent. Then I would buy a pre section to suit my personal taste because the pre is the one that makes the biggest difference in sound IMO. Thats what I would personally do.
Not sure I'd agree. My setup consisted of a MiniDSP Flex HT going into an Audiolab 6000A as power amp. Sounded good, but there were obvious flaws, it distorted a bit, wasn't perfectly clean, ... Now I have the same setup, but with a Benchmark AHB2 as power amp. Big difference. And I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect using the Audiolab as pre amp would also sound great. Must try that before I sell the Audiolab...
The MiniDSP is fantastic though. It helped me get rid of the bass bump that my Focal Kanta 1 have.
@@kadajawi2 i have not seen measurements of the 6000A so I dont know it compares to the AHB2 UNDER DISTORTION LEVELS. What do you not agree with? When you say distortion, what kind of distortion? Harmonics? Clipping?
This makes sense to me. Amps are commodity items at a certain spec. Fosi hit it with the small V3 monos. Load independent class D.
I like small form factors separates and low cost because I can tinker with power, op amps, and most importantly pre-amps and other inputs.
I have a Fosi tube pre-amp for $50 and have a few different tubes. It changes the sound to "warm" and makes my family happy bc we can still afford to eat. Is it the best? Heck no, does it change the sound? Heck yeah!
@@mattmiller4978 pres matter. Lmfao! You are injecting noise and distortion with tubes, and they will sound different. As long as it suits ya, go right ahead! Matching pres to suit personal preference is way better than hoping and waiting for a speaker to match your load dependent amp. A power is supposed to be a power amp, supply needed power in a linear way and thats it!
Good day to both of you, Andrew and Kristin. If you have to pick an active speaker in the $1500-2000 range, what speaker will that be ? And Big Thanks! to your very knowledgeable insight into this topic each and every time. You are both wonderful people.
the smaller amps also provide another way to lower distortion and allow louder playback. we all have speakers with biwire/bi-amp terminals. identical amps for vertical bi-amping or a lesser powered stereo amp for the mid/tweeters and a little beefier stereo amp for the lows. of course using them as monoblocks for each channel is for those that either want it simpler or for speakers with only one input per loudspeaker.
as for the slight model changes that are incremental but with the same form factor, I think its honest to do it that way but perhaps without hype or significant price increase. audio research used to indicate those changes with lower case letters and perhaps a number....such as my preamp which is further improved from SP3 to SP3a, to SP3a1. the final improvement on that design was the SP3 (c) which was a fairly large retrofit.
class D amps HAVE come a long way and some have gotten large and heavy. not having owned one that wasn't in a subwoofer, I can't comment on the warmth or lack of it. i would love to hear a Spectron (no longer made as John Ulrick, the developer of class D for Infinity Systems has passed away) or some of the current NAD line.
I think the low price points of offerings from Fosi/Aiyima etc. is a major reason why people really don't mind the shortcomings and are willing to try out multiple versions.
I'd wager it's the ONLY reason. I wonder how many of these products people go through in the process.
I've had a good number of class D amps going way back to the original Bal Canto and ending with the Nad M33 which I have had for about 3 years. I am not sold on any of them so far. The sound.....something ain't right.
I find them to be the opposite of tubes. Soulless and clinical.
Like a room of candles/fireplace verses lights in a hospital.
Thank you!! :D
Thanks for tuning in!
Hey Guys, a big fan of the unplugged all the way from India.
Only just started, and definitely got a feeling this is gonna be a fun ride. Witnessing the badinage between you two is as enjoyable as whatever the topic. Cocktail parties casa Wright/Robinson must be an absolute delight.
“Fosi time” just entered my lexicon, can’t wait to find someone who gets the reference without crying foul - “but, my sponsors😢”
So glad you're enjoying these videos. We love bringing them to you every week! Thanks for watching!
It’s all about cost tolerance. If you spend $90 on an amp that has some kinks, usually they are livable. If you spend $900 on an amp with kinks, you’re going to be bent out of shape. I can buy 10 versions of the cheaper amp before buying 1 of the more expensive.
My personal preference is to buy the high quality amp, but used. Save myself at least half and know it’s a proven product.
Nuprime makes great D-class amps. I have Omnia A-300: small all-in-one integrated amp.
I just bought the Peachtree Gan 1 with the Bluesound Node and I would be very interested in hearing what you have to say about it. It's the best overall amp I've heard and at home I've auditioned the Rotel 1572 mk II, Audiolab 9000a, Marantz cinema 50, onkyo RZ50, and Naim Uniti Atom. I think the peachtree is better than all of them although I did like the Naim a lot too but you can't turn it up as loud comfortably. My only critique for the Peachtree is that I would prefer it to be a tad warmer.
For most people, the value less expensive amps bring is the disruption to the rest of the amp industry that will drive value and innovation. They are not for everyone, but that is OK if it forces the rest of the industry to try to be better in their own unique ways.
keep in mind these lower cost class "d" amps are a great entry point for people looking to get into audio but are on a budget. they should be applauded however the caveat is they are limited in fidelity as you drive them over 50% their true rated power. but good for near field and small rooms. they are fine.
Love the commentary on the review.
It might be nice for a class A, Class AB, Class D comparison. What is the actual difference besides price and brand names?
Yep, I have great Class A/B (Parasound 2125v2, Arcam AVR5) and shitty Class A/B (Emotiva BasX-A3, Denon x3700H).
I also have great Class D (NAD C298 which is similar to NAD M23, Parasound Zonemaster 2).
Apple Music lossless
I have the Marantz Cinema 50 and the NAD C298. I think it's a great combo. Never at a loss for power.
As far as the customer doing the R & D for a company, essentially computer program developers have been doing this for years. In fact the major players, AAA game developers, consistently put out broken or unfinished games and have ZERO problem taking peoples' money. Sometimes never even fixing or finishing their product. This is becoming the norm not an outlier.
This is unfortunately so true. Long gone are the days of a gold release. RIP
I bought the Aiyima t9 pro 6 months ago and it works great for my needs buuut it definitely doesn’t have the power that they claim
Listen NAD, Hi-Fi Rose, and many other Hi End companies are using Class D. GanFet is next level with the right input stage. The days of Class D being crap is over. I think the dilatation is in the Source Input stage and power stage.
Hello
Eversolo F2 is not really that bad, I listened to it in two systems, mine and a friend's and I liked it, it was not that far from my Classe amplifier which is several times more expensive. Its great advantage in my opinion, is that it sounds very good at low volume. Here in Europe we don't have big houses like in the USA, many of us live in apartments and you can't listen as loud as you want, or you risk neighbors coming to the door with a bat (yes, unfortunately in Europe we don't have either shotguns) About small Chinese amplifiers that flooded the market, what can I say, I haven't listened to any of them but they don't inspire me much confidence. The world went crazy because they are very cheap and they don't really care about the rest. And all the propaganda they get on the internet and TH-cam by guys who claim they are giant slayers just adds fuel to the fire.
But considering that you can buy a whole cargo ship with Fosi & Co for the price of a Dan D'Agostino Relentless Epic 1600 Mono Amplifier (one, not a pair) I don't think they can be a big deal. Probably in a few months most of them will be for sale for $25 on eBay
I think the key point here is:- will these ‘inexpensive’ class-D amps, which are updated more frequently than my wife updates her handbag, stand the test of time? In the late 80s I invested in a Rega Elicit, British integrated amp. That proudly remained the beating heart of my hi-fi rig for well over 30 years. I upgraded recently to a pair of class-AB monoblocks. Not that there was anything wrong with my class-AB Rega, simply that 30 years on, I have more disposable income to play with. I honestly believe that in 30 years time, those class-AB monoblocks will still be sitting proud in my hi-fi rack. Highly unlikely I’ll still be around to enjoy them though! I wonder how many of these ‘affordable’ class-D amps will still be around in 10 years, let alone 30 years?
Oh, that Rega of mine, I’ve still got it. I can’t bring myself to sell it, even though it’s used market value still means I could sell it for considerably more than the cost of an entry level or even mid tear, compact, class-D. I think that speaks volumes!
QC cost 💲…same as the mass market vinyl pressing plants. Budget records come really dirty with pops and clicks and sharp edges. More “audiophile” pressings tend to go through some QC and are a lot cleaner. (Generally) I did buy a $150 record that came with so much warp that my stylist would jump out the groove. It was replaced.
A review on the Dayton Audio HTA100 or HTA200 hybrid tube amps would be awesome as well. Keep up the great work! Love your videos
Those are shitty "hybrid" tubes amps which are not real "tube amps" at all. there's just the pre amp part which is tube amplified so perfectly useless and counterproductive. Don't waste your money on "hybrid" tube amps.
@@maximea4135 they have tons of great reviews.
All these rave Class D generalizations of sounding sterile will blow out of the water if you listen to Leema Acoustics Elements AMP with Just 56Watts or RMS power @ 8 Ohms. Okay I agree it aint cheap. But What a Bass and Control Bruh 😮. And yes you do get those technical things too so called 3D Soundstage, Imaging, Instrument seperation. Watts aint everything. But its how the amp was designed. Just try it if you can. As someone mentioned here , Class D for summer and my 300B for winter.
I have the opportunity to be able to use an Audio Precision in my job, and all inexpensive class D amps exhibit load dependancy which will make them sound brighter. You can solve load dependancy, but it requires high quality filtering that doesnt fit into an ultra cheap price point.
The other major downside to class D in terms of sound quality (especially cheap class D) is how quickly it ramps into distortion. A high quality class AB will be able to go fairly far into clip before it's audible. Meanwhile a cheap class D audibly clips before the rails are even touched.
Check out Fosi Audio V3 Mono or if you have a little bit DIY blood: 3E Audio 260-2-29A. Both use PFFB and dont have the downsides you mention. And cheap as hell for the performance.
@@TheSaNiOnE I just checked out Amirs measurements, and it did extremely well in THD and noise floor, but did still exhibit both of the characteristics I described. Load dependency, and an extremely sharp knee.
If you're going to judge an amplifier based on whether it has 0.001 vs 0.0001% thd, you should also care about an entire +0.5 DB rise in the treble.
@@blakebrockhaus347 I know and I cant hear a difference of 0,5db at 15-20khz. At 200-250w 4Ohms before 1% THD, I would be deaf with my speakers.
Another thought on ASR is that they measure to very specific metrics. Having good THD and SINAD numbers are important and speak to an amp's quality but there's no objective test that I know of which will determine instrument separation or how well an amplifier handles complex passages. I have an XTZ Edge A2-300 that performs well, controls woofers as you'd expect, but directly comparing it with a quality AB amplifier reveals the class D tendency to smear details just a bit, especially when things get hectic. No bench test is going to tell you that.
Subjective reviews are just as important as data based reviews in my opinion. You two do a great job.
If I may, what is your reference Class AB power amp? I think you guys said Audiolab xB 8300. All the best. Enjoying the Unpugged format.
Hi, Andrew and Kristi!
Hi Hammer!
*What new artists are you all enjoying these days? I just discovered the all-girl band The Last Dinner Party. Something about the lead singer's voice reminds me of early, early No Doubt Gwen Stefani. Think The Beacon Street Collections, if you're familiar.*
I’m loving the new Real Estate album.
@@danab7472 I'll have to check that out! I've seen them a couple of times live and they sound great. I'm trying to get into the new Local Natives album in prep to see them live but I'm struggling with it. Love their other albums.
Not new but have been really liking Blue Tofu lately and Rhodes.
Not a new band but love The Mona Lisa Twins. Kristi, check out their TH-cam performing Please Mr. Postman live, so good, always love 4 chord progression.
Not new as such (2022), but I’ve been following a NYC duo called TOLEDO. Their debut is called “How It Ends“ and it has some very good songs.
great talk guys....i guess budget, expensive, capable, are getting mixed out of the type "class or type" labels. class d amps have budget and expensive amps, so A or AB... maybe we have to frame that...just live av receivers ...different standars...
Loving the living room evolution
Thank you!
I’m going to respond to the comments in the video firstly, these amps, again, and I’m running in mono, CAN fill big rooms, and drive speakers. I’m powering a pair of Polk Audio RTA 15 TLs AT volume, and they are barely warm. And, they aren’t FALLING APART.
No one is saying they can't play loud or fill a room with sound. Our, or my issue, with these amps, goes beyond whether or not they can simply play loud.
Im just deep diving in power amps so now after hearing that those cheap class D aren’t that great, how is it with expensive amps like the Marantz Amp 10 or a McIntosh class D? Would that be great amps or should a class A/B amp be better?
I think Amazon's return policy and product ratings make experimenting with the less expensive amps so prevalent.
Sure. It also adds to massive amounts of waste.
@@andrewrobinsonreviews Thank you and Kristi for your work.
I agree with you both. I prefer a more stable and less frequent product release cycle. It tells me they have engineering discipline worked out and a serious company that's not tinkering to make it a hobby company. IN software you typically see 3 week sprint releases I don't think this should be the case with hardware.
I have IOTA amps. They have worked very well. I had an issue with the integrated amp and the company took care of it quickly. For the money, at the time, it looked like a good purchase. You and Kristi might want to give them a try.
Mr. Pete--------->
aging hippie
Also...Have I thought about attaching the Fosi monos and use my marantz as a preamp....yes...lol that would be a nice test. Specifically the Marantz Stereo 70s. I'm using Paradigm 3000F so not in the "high end" space. Thoughts?
It will probably sound rather thin, 2 dimensional and sterile with the Fosi's. Your speakers are 91db, so easy to drive, I would find a nice used Class A/B amp or tube amp to pair with those speakers and skip the Fosi, or go with a vintage stereo unit. US AudioMart is a good place to look.
That's a great idea as I get into vintage and modern both and do have a pair of za3 models, that's an interesting pairing and I'd imagine it would turn out pretty well, just my opinion.
Looking for a small class D for home theatre with less than 10" depth. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks for content Andrew.
Been listening to pioneer lx57(class d I believe 195w 6ohms) switching to denon x4800 (class ab 125w 8ohms) ...i couldnt adjust to class ab ( or the denon tuning not sure) ....feels hi frequencies seriously missing and extended lows too missing....added crown xls(class D 400w) to front channels of denon and those missing frequency comes to life (is it wattage difference?)...
One problem i faced with pioneer class D is - the reciever would auto switch off for hi frequency screams (it never happened for low frequencies which was the case with my older amps I used to have)