I just want to say how much I appreciate your interpretations of the data you collect. A lot of the more “scientific” reviewers tend to assume their audience understands how the data translates to what we hear. I also appreciate that you provide use case examples based on the strengths and weaknesses of a product. It seems obvious but a lot of consumers and even “professional” reviewers just don’t seem to consider a use case. Akin to a car reviewer or a consumer complaining that a sports car has an uncomfortable ride or a luxury car can’t handle well on a race track. Engineers typically make good products and I rarely see bad products. What often happens is the marketing team decides to target a demographic that might be more profitable but doesn’t suit the product. I’ll stop rambling, but thanks again for all your really helpful and honest content!
Thank you very much for starting the amp measurements! I think that 1khz vs multitone power is very clever, i have never seen this test on ASR. I also noted that they are starting to use your test of relative frequency response change at different spl for speakers. Please keep it up with passion and creativity as always!
Ah, ASR the land of 1k sinad determining what is best. The hoard over there will argue until death that a DAC is a DAC, and a $20 DAC is better than a $1k DAC based on 1 measurement.
@@juicebox853 and people will dream. Plug the power cable in with a cryogenic treated fuse. Get an ethernet audiophile switch and some cable lifters. 😂
I liked it so much I bought a second WiiM amp and pair of LS50s. I have one in the bedroom and one near field at my desk. It doesn’t get super loud but we never listen at more than 85db anyway. That apartment life !
PEQ should be a standard functionality of modern audio equipment. Such a small thing to add that is more valuable than anything else they can fit in the box.
that's so true .. the big problem is there's these "purists" that think that using EQ is a no no, which is really sad because even if you have the perfect system, if you compare recordings, every recording doesn't necessarily function best with that "no EQ" situation.
It could be a blessing and a curse. Someone who is not experienced with good sound might be inclined to adjust it to the smiley face shape. They may think it sound better when it's actually worse.@@shipsahoy1793
I would imagine that for most manufacturers it wouldn't be an easy thing to do. Many of them are strictly hardware companies and would have to outsource the development of software or pay licensing fees to utilize an existing software. It would likely be a significant cost to them and probably increase the amount of after sale support too. I'd like to see it happen too though.
@@JosephTongret Well certainly for the first implementation might be tricky to some, but many have apps and streaming support etc included so it ought to be a relatively small addition in those situations.
Erin, Not sure you realize this, but multitone signals have a higher crest factor than a single sine wave. If you drive the amp to almost clipping with a multitone signal, the average power is necessarily lower than if you use a single sine wave (exactly half in the case of a 1:1 two-tone IMD test). From a power perspective, multitone tests are easier than sine waves.
I believe higher crest factor in effect means more peak power is required for the same RMS power. Hence your last sentence should be exactly the opposite of what it is. The higher the crest factor the more demanding of power. Erin's test is a good indicator of peak power capability. I think you are confusing cause and effect here.
@@razisnNo actually I am correct in my comments above and discussed this topic last year with Bruno Putzeys from PuriFi over a year ago when I bench tested one of his amp designs. I don't use multi-tone testing for power as a result. I do single tone sweeps as well as CEA-2010 burst testing. That's a pretty standard way of amplifier testing in the industry by professionals.
@Audioholics I'm sorry, but, as I said, your last sentence above does not follow from your, indeed correct, first two sentences. Higher crest factor is more demanding of the amp, not less. Hence an amp may not be able to produce its max rated RMS power when fed with a higher than 1 crest factor signal, as is the case here, unless it has great peak power reserves. Any signal engineer, including Putzeys, will tell you that. You make it sound like a signal with higher crest factor makes less power demands from the amp where in fact it is exactly the opposite. You don't have to use this test for checking peak power of course, there are standardised tests for this. This test though is a good indicator (not measurement) of an amp's peak power ability in relation to its RMS power measured at 1kHz as standard.
@olics I'm sorry I don't know what average power is. I understand RMS power and peak power. If you look at Erin's test you will see the amp can sustain its RMS power at low power demand in the multitone test. This is because it has power reserve at that power level. If you were right it would produce less RMS power vs the 1kHz test, even in this unstressful case. At max power demand though it cannot sustain it. For me it is clear as glass. I still think you are confusing cause and effect. You think the amp produces less than its rated RMS power because there is no demand for it, I think that it produces less than its rated RMS power because it can't produce more under this test. Let's agree to disagree. You think you are correct in your last sentence, I think you're viewing things upside down. Until we get a test of an amp with better power reserves (peak current ability) than this one to compare, we will not have proof of who's right here.
I didn’t realize how important EQ was until I started tinkering with the PEQ in my WiiM. I figured “oh to have the highest quality you have to run everything flaaaaat” but then realized that to be a poor stance. Kicked in a little low and boom we’re sitting happy as a clam.
Love your reviews on loudspeakers. Objective and subjective are blended nicely to give us a valuable direction. Looking forward to you building up a strong amp review database! Maybe a comparison of 2-3 Amps at around 1000 dollars/euro would be a nice next one!
For higher power we can add a WiiM Pro Plus to a power amp, or a WiiM Pro to a DAC + power amp and keep the same excellent software. But WiiM should eventually release a higher power amp based on Hypex or Purifi too imo. Thanks for the great review! Very interesting take on single tone versus multi tone power.
While I agree and do exactly this for bedroom vs living room setups, the all-in-one nature of the Amp makes the bedroom system a breeze to operate which definitely keeps my wife happy! By the time Wiim creates a bigger, more powerful version (with its associated price increase) then they are quickly approaching making a full AVR and all the additional complexity that comes with it and quickly deteriorating the value proposition over the likes of Denon, Onkyo, etc.
@@mdfrick I somewhat agree. Adorama recently had/has the Onkyo TX-NR6050 7.2-Channel 8K Network AV Receiver On Sale for $299 ($329 Off MSRP). ...90 WPC output (200 WPC "Dynamic", which I'd be curious to see how a test would determine this), but quite a bit more functionality overall, with built-in Streaming/Or use other streaming apps, Tuner, Phono Turntable preamp input, More HDMI/Analog/Digital Inputs, Subwoofer Out, etc. It's definitely a larger box, but a lot more versatile IMO for the price. It depends on your use case scenario.
... At this point you may as well get something like Bluesound Powernode? But I guess you'll lose out on some equalization features. And people online complain everyday about BluOS (even though it's perfectly serviceable). Ultimately, you can find a solid vintage integrated AB amplifier for $300 and add a Wiim Pro.
I was thinking the same thing. I imagine offloading the duties 80Hz and up (or whatever crossover you want) would go a long way in minimizing the demand.
@@johnsmith-i5j7i While I agree that this might help a bit, and I usually suggest it as well, realistically, don't expect too much gain by doing this. It wil depend on several factors, but on average, don't expect to gain more than a few dB. This amplifier already has some inherent "output limiting" going on in its design.
I want to test noise but the device I’m using doesn’t have the greatest noise for. Although it is still pretty good. I might look into options for providing that.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I think Archimago and a few others started using E1DA Cosmos ADC/APU/Scaler + REW RTA with great results for a cheaper Audio precision APx555 alternative.
Wow a perfect review. I honestly mean that. I feel like I got all the technical info I needed , and didn't get from other reviewers, and also your honest thoughts on the product while being fair about it's price point and not comparing it to a $5K amp. I have nothing to ask just praise, awesome review Erin!
Hi Erin. I'm fully on board with the need for EQ in 2 channel listening for two basic reasons: 1. Room acoustics is a dark science and no one no matter who they are will get it perfectly. Even perfection itself is a moving target. 2. Recording quality varies significantly just as no 2 studios are the same, no 2 engineers, no equipment, no two pairs of ears are the same. Best is to have passive treatment augmented with active such as DSP. Wiim ought to put a preamp out in next version. This should solve any drive issue with current hungry speakers. Keep up the good job!
Thank you Erin, I am in the process of researching the WiiM Amp. Your explanations and clarifications were excellent. I feel much better informed. Well done on your presentation. Again, thank you.
This was a great review. All of the things you covered especially the loss of wattage for complex signals was on point. I take the same opinion that more is more power wise and I want my audio gear to sound great louder than I can listen to it. Thank you for taking the time to explain why I think alot of stuff out there is junk.
Well done Erin great to see you moving into AMPs it's an excellent idea and very complementary to the technical speaker reviews. Looking forward to seeing more AMP reviews. thank you!
One heck of a review of an electronic product!! Keep them coming Brother!! I had to look as the list of videos to affirm there were no previous electronic equipment reviews!! 😂. Great explanation and layout!
Agree on the PEQ becoming a valuable and easy to include function. As it already has a subwoofer output, it wouldn’t hurt to include buffered pre-amp outs for an upgrade path.
Avr have more power, can run 5.1 or 7.2 for little more money, decode atmos. Better sound quality. For 500$ can buy yamaha rx-v6a for 400$ yamaha rx-v4a. It's very good on stereo also. Specially in beamp mode if have proper large front speakers
@@fedurrrass4226 yeah, but as I said the WiiM is not as large, which in modern day is a huge selling point. Also, biamp mode actually is less powerful than standard mode (confirmed with Denon/Marantz, they said they add it because people want it). 100W into treble and 100W into bass is nearly identical to 100W into full bandwidth. Also, AVRs lose wattage the more channels are active, Marantz for instance is 80% for 5ch (meaning if 100W for 2ch it’s 80W for 5ch), as such biamp mode is actually less powerful.
Excellent review Erin.I got one of these for Christmas and put in my Daughter's bedroom system (Alexa Dot and NHT Super Ones). Your description is spot on. Amp sounds good, I was expecting a bit more output for the rated power and the EQ allowed me to address a few room/speaker issues. I would not make this my one an only, but for a bedroom, dorm room or 2nd system it is a good choice. Special thumbs up for the aluminum case, app, remote with mic, subwoofer out with X-over and EQ.
Love it Erin! Can’t wait for more electronics reviews. As others have said the multi-tone, both channels driven test is extremely revealing. My take is that because most bass in recordings is mono and makes the most demand in power terms, this test is of upmost importance in assessing an amplifier’s performance. Regarding outright power, isn’t amazing in this day and age when 90W is considered underpowered for an average size room and average sensitivity speakers…
I was around in the 70s and 80s when all the big manufacturers were bragging about breaking the 25 watt barrier... If you have the chance, hook a pair of calibrated power meters up to your speakers and watch just how much juice actually flows in your listening sessions... Mine almost never get over 5 watts on music and might occasionally hit 10 watts on movie special effects.
Vielen lieben Dank für diesen aufschlussreichen, Grund soliden und vor allem objektiven Test des WiiM AMP. Mir hast du sehr bei der Entscheidungsfindung geholfen. Jetzt nach deinem Test werde ich mir ein Bluesound Powernode und nicht den WiiM AMP zulegen auch wenn dieses Gerät teurer ist. Beste Grüße aus Berlin / Deutschland
Thanks for the video. Appreciate you adding amp reviews to your armamentarium. The fact that you are buying is helpful as are your measurements and listening comments. Rock on Erin!
Outstanding as always Erin! Thank you for this episode as I've seen mixed reviews on this product. You confirmed my suspicions that it's a small to medium room product only. I own & love multiple WiiM products and if I needed an integrated amp for a small room this would be high on my list. Thank you and keep up the great work.
Thanks for this, Erin! Really informative and objective. I'm a WiiM Amp user and can attest to your findings regarding the power of the Amp - in smaller spaces, you don't lack power at all. I've stepped down from an Atoll IN100 amp and, although Atoll is clearly a better amp, I don't feel the little WiiM hasanything much to be ashamed of, especially for 5x less money. One more observation: I switched from my usual QA 3020i's to a borrowed pair of CSS 1 TD-X's and noticed a significant rise in sound quality. That is telling me that a pair of higher-quality, not-too-bright speakers is in order. Best regards, Vlada
Andrew Robinson needs to watch and learn. Context is important toward setting reasonable expectations, and you nailed it! For the price, there’s nothing that even comes close. It’s simple to use and also highly tweakable for those who are so inclined.
Ya I actually unsubscribed to Andrew Robinson a while back. He and his never seen girlfriend come across very snobbish . They also are heavy handed if you make a comment that differs at all from their view point. I remember once that he refused to review the Sony sscs 5 bookshelf speaker because he thought it was inferior to waste his time on…. Snob city big time.
I was really interested in this to replace a mini PC running Foobar, playing my library off an internal SSD, driving a DAC to an integrated amp in a music-only speaker rig. It would allow me to get rid of the TV attached to that to PC, the wireless keyboard, and integrated amp remote and run it all from a 10 inch tablet (bad eyes means a phone is just too small.) Unfortunately the info I find on the WiiM users or other forums to date suggests that even though it should be able to read an SSD in a USB enclosure, there are problems with initial indexing, USB drive disappearing completely, etc.. I also can find no info regarding how one can easily create playlists other than individually dragging each cut into the playlist. That's a deal breaker for me with 16,000 FLACs in roughly 1500 folders. I'm curious to know what you thought about the app. Thanks!
I doubt that cruising an external hard disk is a priority in an IOT device like the Wiim. But for playlists, if you can discover the format (most are pretty simple) that Wiim will play, you can probably create them in a text editor.
Great review Erin, refreshing to not hear words like "rich" or "soundstage" overall a nice choice of "success metrics" considering most of the time you review speakers.
Brother Erin :) Nailed it, this is what we want to see, can't wait to see more electronic reviews. You aren't that far from me can load up the car and bring some Anthem products and Akitika.
I currently have 3 Wiim amps around the house, all connected to the network via ethernet cable. The best part about these amps for me is 1) HDMI arc audio control (nice to use TV remote and have only 1 remote), 2) Airplay 2 (easily select audio source from my iphone and can play multiple wiim amps at the same time), 3) with my applications, the sound quality has been excellent! It will provide more than enough volume, even in large rooms. I have been into audio and speaker equipment for 20 plus years, and feel I understand what is well balanced sound, and I feel strongly this amp provides quality, and strong sound. If you have giant speakers, like 200-250 speakers that require a massive amp, you'll probably be disappointed with the Wiim. I have not tested this at very high volumes for long periods of time so i cant comment on that.
Absolutely excellent review sir! I love how you have the tools and knowledge to break down how and just as importantly, why, something produces sound like it does.
The features on these Wiim devices are crazy! I got the Amp first but decided to go with the Pro Plus and a separate amp, not because I needed it, but just because I could. I was impressed that you could change the output voltage on the Pro Plus; 2v, 1v, etc and then cap the max volume to exactly match the input of your amp.
I love your reviews. You are one of the few people I trust. :) If Sonos had decent EQ, I wouldn't even be looking at this device. I've had 10 zones of Sonos for about 15 years and I love it. I'm moving to a new house soon and I want step up the quality on everything. My problem is that ceiling speakers sound terrible, and most of the outdoor speakers aren't much better. I suspect that many affordable speakers could sound much better with EQ. For half of my house, the Wiim amp is plenty. But outdoors, and the main living area will need more power. 4 Wiim Pros plus an 8-channel 250w Buckeye amp is still cheaper than 4 Sonos Amps, even after my 30% loyalty discount. So 10 zones of Wiim (6 amps, and 4 pros) would be $6200. 10 Sonos amps with the 30% discount would be $4900, but there would be no PEQ. To try to use Sonos ports with a mini DSP and an amp would cost a small fortune and be a big mess in the rack and harder to use than the Wiim. I guess the best solution is to spend stupid money on good ceiling speakers and stay with Sonos. I still have a few months to decide.
Hey, if you're interested into distortion in electronics, especially multi tone distorsion, you can look at IIP3 measurements. For single tone distortion, you can look at 1dB compression point. It's something we use a lot in RF circuits because we care about linearity, and it's a more methodological way to look at it than choosing a random power input. In that sense, you can really compare amplifier because you know precisely at which input or output level they have compression/distorsion
Excellent!!! This review, your first off this type, was FANTASTIC!!!! MORE PLEASE!!!!! Did you say there was a crossover built in to the Wiim software/app?
Thanks! Yes, when you engage the subwoofer output, you can adjust the crossover from 30 Hz to 250 Hz. The crossover slope is not adjustable but the frequency is.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Sorry, I meant to specify, is there a hi-pass filter for the speakers? Thank you so much for your reply! Made my day! I really enjoy your review and am soo happy you are back and better than ever!
I am running the WiiM amp for my outdoor system, and it is working great so far. It is powering 2 pairs of Polk Atrium 8 SDI in parallel (4 ohms/channel), with a Crown XLS1002 and a Dayton outdoor subwoofer, crossover set at 80 Hz. I airplay the audio from the outdoor Apple Tv to the WiiM amp for TV, and this solved a low volume issue I was having with a Bluesound Node when using the same way. Music sounds good, I've had it at reasonable levels with no shutdowns so far. This seems like a good use case where critical listening and super loud volumes are not needed as it is usually for background music.
This is probably a TPA3255 "chip amp" with a nice selection of potentially useful "bells and whistles" on the input side -- as such, it's a pretty decent value and surely the EQ feature can be used to mitigate any FR irregularities that turn out to be audible. It's not something I personally have any use for, but it's certainly an impressive little product for a wide range of use cases -- and it certainly provides a good deal more "bang for the buck" than something like the $800 PS Audio Sprout100.
It is a TPA3255 ... but I suspect they're using current limiting (pin 7) to mitigate a thermal problem with all that electronics jammed into such a small case.
You knocked it out of the park. All of the relative information without the BS. I'm thinking power supply size on that 30 watt power drop with multi-tone only can do so much with the size and the price. If it had an external power supply that could have been easily tested but everything's a trade-off.
This little amp does exactly what I was trying to do with my TV set up. Recently upgraded from an old plasma with RCA to an LG C3 and needed an HDMI/optical in since my old Yamaha receiver didn't have either. Wanted something small, sleek, and powerful enough for 2 monoprice bookshelfs. This thing fit the bill and with the new set up I've cleared my entertainment center of everything but the WiimAmp (Xbox, receiver are gone). One thing I was really happy about is that it allows me to use the LG Magic Remote with no issues.
Great idea to test the power rating with multi-tone vs a single tone! Thanks for that addition providing great real-world AND technical review. I have this integrated amp paired with KEF R3 Metas in my office (Yes, I know it is a mismatch and will eventually move it to replace the soundbar in my bedroom.) I compared it to the SMSL AO300 (thanks Amazon!). My main mode of playback is DLNA over Ethernet using the Asset UPnP server and Bubble UPnP app on Android. (The WiiM app is great, but I mostly use it for device configuration.) My take is the AO300 is better sounding (especially via Bluetooth LDAC which the WiiM does not support) with more connectivity, power, and format/CODEC support than the WiiM. IMO the WiiM is market focused on regular consumers, not audiophiles or engineers (and I am in firmly in both camps). Even, so I kept the WiiM because it supports a subwoofer with adjustable high-pass to the speakers, it has a modest PEQ, and better device and mobile app software support (AO300 has no mobile app). WiiM SW support is automatic and happens behind the scene. SMSL required downloading and installing a driver from a DOS shell. As an engineer, this wasn't anything new or difficult, but neither is it where the market is today. I listen to this setup daily in both near-field and 6' distances in my office. The power is adequate for that. On compressed albums it gets louder than I care to listen. On audiophile full dynamic range albums, I wish I could turn it up louder. Overall, I enjoy the WiiM and the music it brings to the office. Even though it has limited I/O and power, for $300 I found it to compelling to pass up.
Really good review, you are on to something by looking into amp performance with both simple and complex signals. Most other reviewers do not have this ability or your expertise in speaker design and interface. You picked a fun little amp to review as it is so versatile. Would like to know how the stereo amp performs when in 2.1 channel mode with lows filtered at about 80 Hz.
Thanks. I had a subwoofer connected and was quite happy with it. Being able to adjust the crossover on the app from the seat is excellent. Makes dialing the crossover frequency in much easier.
The Wiim has a nice feature set. Would be ok nearfield for me, but not enough output for my theater or music needs. Once you own some pro audio gear, you will find a lot of the consumer stuff lacks output. Erin, thanks for another great review.
I am pretty happy with mine, I have Kef R3 Metas and a monolith thx sub with crossover set at 80hz. I was planning on moving it to the bedroom and replacing it with the Wiim Ultra when it comes out(Q2) and drive the r3's with Fossi Za3 mono blocks. I listen from 75-85 decibels at 9 feet and it hits at least 97 decibels maxed out which is uncomfortably loud for me.
I’m not in the market for an amp…that being said…I was anxious to see what Erin had to say about this affordable amp… and I was not disappointed… I’m no longer a “newbie” nor do I consider myself an audiophile…but I have learned over the years that ya gotta be careful which Hi-Fi TH-camr’s to trust…so for those who are here to research this amp…and U like what Erin had to say…I feel very confident that U can trust what this man has to say…just my humble opinion… we appreciate ya Erin!
Great video! Do you think integrating a subwoofer with a pair of bookshelf speakers could make it into the living room without affecting sound quality?
This was a really awesome analysis and exactly what I was hoping for in your new journey into electronics videos. I’m so glad I didn’t hear the words “chocolaty” or “organic”
If you use a subwoofer, and say a 150Hz or 200Hz DSP crossover - does that change the effective power availability enough to make it more widely applicable?
I tried to test this but I don't have the means at the moment. I'd say it is certainly plausible but that doesn't mean it's true, at least in this case.
I've got the same question. I think a lot of people have this question. If paired with a powered sub, will I be happy with the power output since presumably more power would be available for the main speakers. For testing, could you just plug an RCA into the sub out, set the crossover and measure the decibel output with the crossover engaged? (Meaning you wouldn't need a sub to test this)
Reading over the comments, I think we need to talk about reasonable expectations. These devices are clearly MID-FI ... they're intended for people like me who never "crank it up" and don't expect concert level playback in wildly sound absorbing rooms. Reviewers over time have created the impression that unless an amp or speaker can reach ear-bleed levels, with perfect dispersion and no distortion, they aren't good enough... and that simply is not true. If it will reach a reasonable sound level (70 to 80dba) with inaudible distortion it will be plenty good enough for about 90% of the population. I use TPA3255 based amps in my main system. I don't do concert levels because I have neighbours, and I like keeping my hearing. I've never felt these amps are lacking... although some are better implemented than others on a technical level. Has Erin found a major flaw in the Wiim Amp ... probably not. He has discovered an amplifier that will suit the needs of millions of living room and bedroom installations perfectly ... but like most smaller amps (75 watts or less) it's not going to give you concert level output (90+dba) in a large listening room. I have no doubt the Wiim amp, like it's TPA3255 brethren, was created with the "average user" in mind... with little or no intention of meeting the goals of audiophiles. Like it or not Audiophilia is a fringe hobby... Nobody is building reasonably priced gear for you, if you want to play the big game you're gonna get stuck with the high prices.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Sure thing. I will not be buying one but if asked I will be happy to evaluate one for a friend or client. I've heard one at a neighbour's house and it's a pretty decent little setup. He runs it in his living room where it seems to meet their needs just fine. It appears to be the guys expecting to hook this up in their dedicated listening rooms and replace $100,000 systems that are be dumping on it. But then, they dump on most everything... so no surprises there.
I'm glad you decided to do the amp measurements! Great review, 30watts per channel will be plenty for me. Low end provided by a sub. Can't wait, great little amp by wiim!
one problem I had with the WiiM was lack of bass , was comparing 2 pairs of speakers with the WiiM and SONOS AMP ,at fairly high listening volume, and the WiiM was very bass thin , even when I cranked the bass EQ up.Not sure what that was , but it was a very obvious difference.perhaps with a subwoofer it won't matter.
Something to try ... instead of turning up the bass, turn down the mid and treble. If the amplifier (any amplifier) is close to it's power limits, turning things up is likely to lead to clipping, literally demanding more than it can give. The minimal result of this will be an increase in distortion without an increase in loudness, in extreme cases is can generate a lot of harmonic content that is known to damage tweeters.
I think my mistake was to try different speakers with different amps , for the lack of a switch box that's all I had at that time. probably not a fair comparison @@Douglas_Blake_579
Still digesting this information ... at 14:45 the multitone test was run at 1% thd ... that is well beyond clipping. The clipping level is the sharp bend in the THD shown at 13:10 ... called a "knee point" (for some reason). Per TI's chip data this knee point and the vertical rise in distortion is actually happening at about 0.1% distortion, or less. Class D amplifiers, especially those on SMPS regulated supplies do not demonstrate the same "headroom" as a class A/B amp. Because there is no power supply build-up and roll-off like the unregulated supplies in A/B amps, these PWM amps hit the roof pretty hard with no burst level available. This does not mean they have no headroom, what it actually means is that, with a regulated supply, the traditional A/B burst level headroom is available to them all the time. (And FWIW... an A/B amp with a similarly regulated supply would exhibit the same behaviour.) If you monitor pin 21 (~CLIP/OTW) of the TPA3255 chip, you will discover that it signals clipping at about 90% of the maximum output power. This is the point where the PWM pulses are becoming too narrow and there is a risk of the output transistors failing to turn on. Typically these amplifiers will inject a "minimum width" pulse to prevent this. You can see it on an oscilloscope, looking at one side of the BTL bridge, as the top of the analog output wave form becoming unstable. But keep in mind this is happening at about 400khz and it is in phase on both sides of the BTL bridge, so it produces no output on a speaker and even if it did it would be at frequencies way way way beyond our hearing limits. Also at this clipping point the chip may begin current limiting as part of it's self-protection circuits, to prevent overheating. When this starts, pin 21 will latch low and the TPA3255 will reduce it's output according to the current limit set on Pin 7 (OC_ADJ). In this state it is not reducing output power, it is rolling back it's gain to prevent over-heating. (So-called "soft clipping") The best I can determine is that with a multi-tone signal with each tone at 1% thd levels the power drop is actually deliberate because (A) the chip is running well beyond analog clipping and (B) it is getting close to it's thermal limit. By repeating the multi-tone test I think you would find that the power discrepancy does not happen until you reach about 90% of full output which should be at about 0.1% THD. I hope this helps...
Thanks. FWIW, I actually went back and changed the protocol for the high output test. I decided that it makes more sense to test to the manufacturers rated output. And doing so, the output was 120 W with a single tone. But with multitone it was 87 W. So it actually, decreased by about 5 W compared to my original test in this video. I would like to be able to test with a high Pass filter in place on the WiiM, but the multitone signal is expecting something there so the power calculation is incorrect. There’s no way to add my own test signal via quantum, either.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I'll see your concern ... and raise you some confusion... That many tones all at levels well beyond clipping is not something an amplifier would ever run into in day to day use. The normal decay in power with frequency of music pretty much avoids it entirely. So, I'm not sure that is a good representation of an amplifier's capability. Don't get me wrong ... in terms of torture testing it is rather revealing of some issue in the Wiim amp. Time will tell if it's a common issue or something unique to this implementation. Right now my money is on current or thermal limiting... both of which can be a good thing in extreme overdrive situations. My A07 which runs on a 36volt 10a supply only dropped by about 3 watts, the TB10Ds will drop about 6 watts on a 6 tone overdrive with the same supply. Will the QA device not allow you to measure with external signal generators? That would suck. So, going forward, it might be a good idea to keep track of which amps do this and which don't... then perhaps at some point we can look at why...
I think adding a powered sub should help in minimizing the output concerns. Though I think if WiiM launched a more powerful version and/or one with Pre-outs and charged more, I would buy it yesterday! If they BOTH a stronger amp (comparable to the PowerNode) and pre-outs, I'd be more than fine paying 2-3X the price.
I think I could mount this on the wall behind the TV and get the receiver out of a vented cabinet. I'll have to keep it in mind. Would be better with an HDMI out for replacing a receiver.
This could I suspect work well with my 99db per watt open baffles, especially considering I run a separate amp for the lower bass drivers. The option of EQ would be very useful.
Here's a surprise use for this - over 120dB SPL bass from this amp - really. I have four Eminence Sigma 18" speakers mounted in the front wall of my studio, with a store-room/garage on the other side, so truly infinite baffle. The top speakers are paired in parallel with the bottom ones, hence 8 ohm loading, and I use a (specially built) 50W per channel amp (100W into 4 ohm) to drive them, with built in simple EQ which is needed below 50Hz for infinite baffle. The thing is, these speakers are not 85dB per Watt they are 99dB/W. So with 100W that translates to 120db SPL at one metre from each pair. The response is -3dB at 12 Hz, and because of the huge cone area, travel is minimised and hence low distortion. THIS BEATS TOP subwoofers like the JTR RS1 (costing £3000) in every respect!! The speaker drivers are £220 each, so total cost with the amp around £1000, and stunning results (it's APERIODIC unlike most ported subs). When subs are not in a box, fighting the internal pressure, and with such high sensitivity speakers, they only need 50W in place of 2000W to produce 120dB plus. So thanks for this, because I think I am going to get the WiiM amp as it gives inbuilt flexible EQ. However, I was really hoping it would include variable delay (easy to realise in a digital system) but it doesn't seem to. That's because I want to use more subs around the room of this design to introduce cancellation of room mode resonances. I'd really love to see delays built into this.
Im on the verge of buying another bluesound device for upstairs. Have a NODE X downstairs that I love, and thinking about getting a powernode or powernode edge for a small system upstairs in my loft area. Id love to see a review of one of those.
I think it’s a great value option but it’s not going to compare to avr’s with power, features, connections, adjustments via eq, dsp configurations and room correction ie Dirac, mcaac, etc. Great for a bedroom or smaller room on a secondary system.
I said something similar in another comment here, but I agree...depending on your use case and the level of simplicity vs. complexity desired. Adorama recently had/has the Onkyo TX-NR6050 7.2-Channel 8K Network AV Receiver On Sale for $299 ($329 Off MSRP). It is rated at 90 WPC @ 8 ohm (200 WPC "Dynamic", which I'd be curious to see how a test would determine this), but it offers quite a bit more functionality overall, with built-in Streaming/Or use other streaming apps/protocols, a Tuner, Phono Turntable preamp input, More HDMI/Analog/Digital Inputs, Subwoofer Out, etc. But it's definitely a larger box, though more versatile for the price. It's going to depend on your use case scenario.
@@bbfoto7248 ya it does depend on use case. I currently am using 2 pioneer avr’s the Elite 504 and the Elite 103 I don’t use the built in streamer on them though I use the Bluesound Node 130 for the 504 and the Node 2i on the 103. I’m planning to get the eversolo dmp a6 master edition . I love the versatility of the avr’s they also have really good AKM dac chips in them. Wiim is good value on all their products but I doubt I’d buy one. Cheers 🍻
Thanks, I am considering this one for a small room with only two ceiling mounted speakers. My question though is have you considered measuring the Fosi ZA3? It comes with a 48 v power supply as an option, can be used in mono mode and has sub out.
Best amplifier under $1,000 🤔 Your review was thankfully missing the hype or clickbait I watch a lot of reviews and you do a great job of fact and subjective impressions. This amplifier is not for me at present but knowing Wiim I expect continued improvements
Very informative video! Thanks! If I do decide to buy this unit, do I need a phono preamp or I just directly connect my turntable? What about turntables with built in preamp? Will it be a problem? Thanks!
Great review Erin. One detail I have not yet found is the nature of the output volume control. Do you know if the WiiM Amp controls volume digitally, as in the Mini, Pro or Pro+, or is the volume control an analog control of the amp output?
This product is for distributed audio multiroom systems as a SONOS alternative (in ceiling or in wall speakers) or smaller speakers in a bedroom or office. People using it for anything beyond that are missing the point. Like using a motorcycle to go grocery shopping.
Yup, agreed - I am using this in my bedroom powering Klipsch RP-600M Mk II bookshelf speakers with a Cambridge Audio Minx M301 subwoofer and the sound is fantastic!!!
Great review with great tests. So when you set the sub crossover point, it's feeding the mains a signal above that? So not just a crossover point for the sub, but also the mains? I am shocked at all they put into this amp. I would like to see their next amp to provide twice the power and 2 sub outputs - very important for those running subs up past 80 hz. Those are the only two issues I see, except overall sound quality.
I'm debating between this and an SMSL AO300 + a WIIM Pro. I've got a pair of ELAC debut B6's, so they're 6ohm and this would give 90W per speaker. The SMSL AO300 would give 125W per channel. Would that actually make a material difference?
The general consensus on this product seems to be that you CAN do better with separates, but the convenience of the Wiim Amp is through the roof for the right application. Separates: Wiim Mini, SMSL SU-1 DAC, Fosi V3 amp, HDMI converter if needed. Thats like $250 to $300 and I'm sure sounds and tests better (based on great numbers for the V3). Probably the biggest issue I see with the low power of the Wiim Amp is that for a compact system, you're likely to use compact, cheaper, high draw speakers. It's an odd design in that sense. I'd be quick to recommend the Dayton 402x with the Wiim Amp as a killer sub $400 system, but the Dayton is like 81db sensitive... so I'd have to recommend the separates. It's not till you get to an 87 or 88db sensitive 5" monitor (with mediocre bass tuning) that things get reasonable. NEEDING to add a sub is an oversight for an amp designed for compact systems. Those Daytons will put out useful bass, but need power to do it. They should package it with an outboard power supply (I hate that I just said that) or make the box big enough to produce a true 50 wpc.
Instead of the WIIM Mini and SU-1 the WIIM Pro plus. Get the Fosi ZA3 instead, because it has a sub out and can be used in Mono PBTL mode. You have a better upgrade path that way. You can add a second ZA3 and a separate DAC later. It will cost you 70 bucks more but you are getting more and better power out of the bat. Alternatively the Aiyima A07 MAX. (No sub out tho)
Boom. Or get an SMSL a300 integrated amp. You dont even need a dac or streamer for a while becasue of nice BT connection. It has remote, hipass crossover and full sub out.@@D1N02
I'm curious about the reliability of the ARC input. I have an Arylic B50 and the ARC is fairly useless. About half the time the receiver won't turn on when the TV turns on which kind of defeats the purpose of ARC...
went with the russound ava31 instead of the wiim... the Wiim is a bit too thick to mount behind a tv and no center channel. Not too many reviews on the russound system
Buy:
howl.me/clzbSEeyLR3 (Crutchfield)
amzn.to/3wh0H0B (Amazon)
I just want to say how much I appreciate your interpretations of the data you collect. A lot of the more “scientific” reviewers tend to assume their audience understands how the data translates to what we hear. I also appreciate that you provide use case examples based on the strengths and weaknesses of a product. It seems obvious but a lot of consumers and even “professional” reviewers just don’t seem to consider a use case. Akin to a car reviewer or a consumer complaining that a sports car has an uncomfortable ride or a luxury car can’t handle well on a race track. Engineers typically make good products and I rarely see bad products. What often happens is the marketing team decides to target a demographic that might be more profitable but doesn’t suit the product. I’ll stop rambling, but thanks again for all your really helpful and honest content!
Could you please make a short video on how to use peq?
See if this helps.
Budget Stereo Systems You Will Love
th-cam.com/video/6GcFznDiJQU/w-d-xo.html
Thank you very much for starting the amp measurements! I think that 1khz vs multitone power is very clever, i have never seen this test on ASR. I also noted that they are starting to use your test of relative frequency response change at different spl for speakers. Please keep it up with passion and creativity as always!
Ah, ASR the land of 1k sinad determining what is best. The hoard over there will argue until death that a DAC is a DAC, and a $20 DAC is better than a $1k DAC based on 1 measurement.
@@juicebox853 and people will dream. Plug the power cable in with a cryogenic treated fuse. Get an ethernet audiophile switch and some cable lifters. 😂
I use the WiiM amp in the bedroom powering LS50 metas and a Martin Logan Dynamo 400 sub. The HDMI Arc makes it sooooo good for that application.
How do you like the ls50 with wiim amp?
I liked it so much I bought a second WiiM amp and pair of LS50s. I have one in the bedroom and one near field at my desk. It doesn’t get super loud but we never listen at more than 85db anyway. That apartment life !
PEQ should be a standard functionality of modern audio equipment. Such a small thing to add that is more valuable than anything else they can fit in the box.
that's so true .. the big problem is there's these "purists" that think that using EQ is a no no, which is really sad because even if you have the perfect system, if you compare recordings, every recording doesn't necessarily function best with that "no EQ" situation.
It could be a blessing and a curse. Someone who is not experienced with good sound might be inclined to adjust it to the smiley face shape. They may think it sound better when it's actually worse.@@shipsahoy1793
I would imagine that for most manufacturers it wouldn't be an easy thing to do. Many of them are strictly hardware companies and would have to outsource the development of software or pay licensing fees to utilize an existing software. It would likely be a significant cost to them and probably increase the amount of after sale support too. I'd like to see it happen too though.
@@JosephTongret Well certainly for the first implementation might be tricky to some, but many have apps and streaming support etc included so it ought to be a relatively small addition in those situations.
Separate PEQ for left and right channels is really needed
Erin,
Not sure you realize this, but multitone signals have a higher crest factor than a single sine wave. If you drive the amp to almost clipping with a multitone signal, the average power is necessarily lower than if you use a single sine wave (exactly half in the case of a 1:1 two-tone IMD test). From a power perspective, multitone tests are easier than sine waves.
I believe higher crest factor in effect means more peak power is required for the same RMS power. Hence your last sentence should be exactly the opposite of what it is. The higher the crest factor the more demanding of power. Erin's test is a good indicator of peak power capability. I think you are confusing cause and effect here.
@@razisnNo actually I am correct in my comments above and discussed this topic last year with Bruno Putzeys from PuriFi over a year ago when I bench tested one of his amp designs. I don't use multi-tone testing for power as a result. I do single tone sweeps as well as CEA-2010 burst testing. That's a pretty standard way of amplifier testing in the industry by professionals.
@Audioholics I'm sorry, but, as I said, your last sentence above does not follow from your, indeed correct, first two sentences. Higher crest factor is more demanding of the amp, not less. Hence an amp may not be able to produce its max rated RMS power when fed with a higher than 1 crest factor signal, as is the case here, unless it has great peak power reserves. Any signal engineer, including Putzeys, will tell you that. You make it sound like a signal with higher crest factor makes less power demands from the amp where in fact it is exactly the opposite. You don't have to use this test for checking peak power of course, there are standardised tests for this. This test though is a good indicator (not measurement) of an amp's peak power ability in relation to its RMS power measured at 1kHz as standard.
@@razisnagain read my comment about average power, not peak power. It's correct.
@olics I'm sorry I don't know what average power is. I understand RMS power and peak power. If you look at Erin's test you will see the amp can sustain its RMS power at low power demand in the multitone test. This is because it has power reserve at that power level. If you were right it would produce less RMS power vs the 1kHz test, even in this unstressful case. At max power demand though it cannot sustain it. For me it is clear as glass. I still think you are confusing cause and effect. You think the amp produces less than its rated RMS power because there is no demand for it, I think that it produces less than its rated RMS power because it can't produce more under this test. Let's agree to disagree. You think you are correct in your last sentence, I think you're viewing things upside down. Until we get a test of an amp with better power reserves (peak current ability) than this one to compare, we will not have proof of who's right here.
I didn’t realize how important EQ was until I started tinkering with the PEQ in my WiiM. I figured “oh to have the highest quality you have to run everything flaaaaat” but then realized that to be a poor stance. Kicked in a little low and boom we’re sitting happy as a clam.
We all like our big bottoms
Love your reviews on loudspeakers. Objective and subjective are blended nicely to give us a valuable direction. Looking forward to you building up a strong amp review database! Maybe a comparison of 2-3 Amps at around 1000 dollars/euro would be a nice next one!
For higher power we can add a WiiM Pro Plus to a power amp, or a WiiM Pro to a DAC + power amp and keep the same excellent software. But WiiM should eventually release a higher power amp based on Hypex or Purifi too imo. Thanks for the great review! Very interesting take on single tone versus multi tone power.
While I agree and do exactly this for bedroom vs living room setups, the all-in-one nature of the Amp makes the bedroom system a breeze to operate which definitely keeps my wife happy! By the time Wiim creates a bigger, more powerful version (with its associated price increase) then they are quickly approaching making a full AVR and all the additional complexity that comes with it and quickly deteriorating the value proposition over the likes of Denon, Onkyo, etc.
Word is they are working on a WiiM Ultra. Amp or preamp don't know. Have a WiiM pro plus into a Fosi V3 amp. great little combo.
@@mdfrick
I somewhat agree. Adorama recently had/has the Onkyo TX-NR6050 7.2-Channel 8K Network AV Receiver On Sale for $299 ($329 Off MSRP).
...90 WPC output (200 WPC "Dynamic", which I'd be curious to see how a test would determine this), but quite a bit more functionality overall, with built-in Streaming/Or use other streaming apps, Tuner, Phono Turntable preamp input, More HDMI/Analog/Digital Inputs, Subwoofer Out, etc.
It's definitely a larger box, but a lot more versatile IMO for the price. It depends on your use case scenario.
... At this point you may as well get something like Bluesound Powernode? But I guess you'll lose out on some equalization features. And people online complain everyday about BluOS (even though it's perfectly serviceable). Ultimately, you can find a solid vintage integrated AB amplifier for $300 and add a Wiim Pro.
@@user-xg6zz8qs3q true but you won't have a sub out w/crossover
Adding a powered subwoofer would go a long way towards addressing the power deficit. Most power is needed down low hence the powered subwoofer.
I was thinking the same thing. I imagine offloading the duties 80Hz and up (or whatever crossover you want) would go a long way in minimizing the demand.
Yup and since speakers are lower impedence at lower frequencies that will help a lot. Mine go down to 2.8ohm
@@johnsmith-i5j7i
While I agree that this might help a bit, and I usually suggest it as well, realistically, don't expect too much gain by doing this.
It wil depend on several factors, but on average, don't expect to gain more than a few dB. This amplifier already has some inherent "output limiting" going on in its design.
Absolutely love your amp testing methods.
Noise floor is really important to me.
Multitone power output results were surprising.
Thank you!!!
I want to test noise but the device I’m using doesn’t have the greatest noise for. Although it is still pretty good. I might look into options for providing that.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I think Archimago and a few others started using E1DA Cosmos ADC/APU/Scaler + REW RTA with great results for a cheaper Audio precision APx555 alternative.
Wow a perfect review. I honestly mean that. I feel like I got all the technical info I needed , and didn't get from other reviewers, and also your honest thoughts on the product while being fair about it's price point and not comparing it to a $5K amp. I have nothing to ask just praise, awesome review Erin!
Well, I really appreciate that.
Excellent - You have a different take on amplifier reviews, one which adds to our understanding.
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Erin. I'm fully on board with the need for EQ in 2 channel listening for two basic reasons:
1. Room acoustics is a dark science and no one no matter who they are will get it perfectly. Even perfection itself is a moving target.
2. Recording quality varies significantly just as no 2 studios are the same, no 2 engineers, no equipment, no two pairs of ears are the same.
Best is to have passive treatment augmented with active such as DSP.
Wiim ought to put a preamp out in next version. This should solve any drive issue with current hungry speakers.
Keep up the good job!
Thank you Erin, I am in the process of researching the WiiM Amp. Your explanations and clarifications were excellent. I feel much better informed. Well done on your presentation. Again, thank you.
This is so refreshing to see someone taking measurements on the equipment they are reviewing! Keep going with good work!
Thanks Erin. I believe you misspoke when describing the 8 ohm frequency response, saying it peaked at "+6dB". Should be +0.6 dB, looks to me.
This was a great review. All of the things you covered especially the loss of wattage for complex signals was on point. I take the same opinion that more is more power wise and I want my audio gear to sound great louder than I can listen to it. Thank you for taking the time to explain why I think alot of stuff out there is junk.
Well done Erin great to see you moving into AMPs it's an excellent idea and very complementary to the technical speaker reviews. Looking forward to seeing more AMP reviews. thank you!
This was a very good review, Erin. Hopefully you will do a lot more of amps in the future
Thanks!
One heck of a review of an electronic product!! Keep them coming Brother!!
I had to look as the list of videos to affirm there were no previous electronic equipment reviews!! 😂.
Great explanation and layout!
I really appreciate the honest down to earth reviews that everyone can understand.
For $300 and not as big as an AVR it is indeed a great value.
Agree on the PEQ becoming a valuable and easy to include function. As it already has a subwoofer output, it wouldn’t hurt to include buffered pre-amp outs for an upgrade path.
Avr have more power, can run 5.1 or 7.2 for little more money, decode atmos. Better sound quality. For 500$ can buy yamaha rx-v6a for 400$ yamaha rx-v4a. It's very good on stereo also. Specially in beamp mode if have proper large front speakers
@@fedurrrass4226 yeah, but as I said the WiiM is not as large, which in modern day is a huge selling point.
Also, biamp mode actually is less powerful than standard mode (confirmed with Denon/Marantz, they said they add it because people want it). 100W into treble and 100W into bass is nearly identical to 100W into full bandwidth. Also, AVRs lose wattage the more channels are active, Marantz for instance is 80% for 5ch (meaning if 100W for 2ch it’s 80W for 5ch), as such biamp mode is actually less powerful.
Excellent review Erin.I got one of these for Christmas and put in my Daughter's bedroom system (Alexa Dot and NHT Super Ones). Your description is spot on. Amp sounds good, I was expecting a bit more output for the rated power and the EQ allowed me to address a few room/speaker issues. I would not make this my one an only, but for a bedroom, dorm room or 2nd system it is a good choice. Special thumbs up for the aluminum case, app, remote with mic, subwoofer out with X-over and EQ.
That is awesome!
Thanks for this review! I’m running mine in our great room with Paradigm Monitor 7s ver3. Don’t need loud so I’m happy with it, so far.
Love it Erin! Can’t wait for more electronics reviews. As others have said the multi-tone, both channels driven test is extremely revealing. My take is that because most bass in recordings is mono and makes the most demand in power terms, this test is of upmost importance in assessing an amplifier’s performance.
Regarding outright power, isn’t amazing in this day and age when 90W is considered underpowered for an average size room and average sensitivity speakers…
I was around in the 70s and 80s when all the big manufacturers were bragging about breaking the 25 watt barrier...
If you have the chance, hook a pair of calibrated power meters up to your speakers and watch just how much juice actually flows in your listening sessions... Mine almost never get over 5 watts on music and might occasionally hit 10 watts on movie special effects.
Vielen lieben Dank für diesen aufschlussreichen, Grund soliden und vor allem objektiven Test des WiiM AMP.
Mir hast du sehr bei der Entscheidungsfindung geholfen.
Jetzt nach deinem Test werde ich mir ein Bluesound Powernode und nicht den WiiM AMP zulegen auch wenn dieses Gerät teurer ist.
Beste Grüße aus Berlin / Deutschland
Thanks for the video. Appreciate you adding amp reviews to your armamentarium. The fact that you are buying is helpful as are your measurements and listening comments. Rock on Erin!
Outstanding as always Erin! Thank you for this episode as I've seen mixed reviews on this product. You confirmed my suspicions that it's a small to medium room product only. I own & love multiple WiiM products and if I needed an integrated amp for a small room this would be high on my list. Thank you and keep up the great work.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for this, Erin!
Really informative and objective.
I'm a WiiM Amp user and can attest to your findings regarding the power of the Amp - in smaller spaces, you don't lack power at all.
I've stepped down from an Atoll IN100 amp and, although Atoll is clearly a better amp, I don't feel the little WiiM hasanything much to be ashamed of, especially for 5x less money.
One more observation: I switched from my usual QA 3020i's to a borrowed pair of CSS 1 TD-X's and noticed a significant rise in sound quality. That is telling me that a pair of higher-quality, not-too-bright speakers is in order.
Best regards,
Vlada
Great stuff, so good to see you venturing into new areas where some honesty is much needed.🙂
As for the WIIM, for it's cost it darn impressive.
Hey Erin- I've never been into measurements but I watch your videos because they're informative yet not boring. Keep up the good work!
Well covered here. You provided info that most reviewers haven’t. I appreciate that. I look forward to more content like this. Thank you.
Andrew Robinson needs to watch and learn.
Context is important toward setting reasonable expectations, and you nailed it! For the price, there’s nothing that even comes close. It’s simple to use and also highly tweakable for those who are so inclined.
You're right. His review was so odd.
I pretty much quit watching the videos of most other reviewers once I discovered Erin's channel.
Context is key. I otherwise found Robinson to be way too high brow.
nah let him continue to be like an rc willies sales person i say
Ya I actually unsubscribed to Andrew Robinson a while back. He and his never seen girlfriend come across very snobbish . They also are heavy handed if you make a comment that differs at all from their view point.
I remember once that he refused to review the Sony sscs 5 bookshelf speaker because he thought it was inferior to waste his time on….
Snob city big time.
I was really interested in this to replace a mini PC running Foobar, playing my library off an internal SSD, driving a DAC to an integrated amp in a music-only speaker rig. It would allow me to get rid of the TV attached to that to PC, the wireless keyboard, and integrated amp remote and run it all from a 10 inch tablet (bad eyes means a phone is just too small.) Unfortunately the info I find on the WiiM users or other forums to date suggests that even though it should be able to read an SSD in a USB enclosure, there are problems with initial indexing, USB drive disappearing completely, etc.. I also can find no info regarding how one can easily create playlists other than individually dragging each cut into the playlist. That's a deal breaker for me with 16,000 FLACs in roughly 1500 folders. I'm curious to know what you thought about the app. Thanks!
I doubt that cruising an external hard disk is a priority in an IOT device like the Wiim. But for playlists, if you can discover the format (most are pretty simple) that Wiim will play, you can probably create them in a text editor.
Great review Erin, refreshing to not hear words like "rich" or "soundstage" overall a nice choice of "success metrics" considering most of the time you review speakers.
Brother Erin :) Nailed it, this is what we want to see, can't wait to see more electronic reviews. You aren't that far from me can load up the car and bring some Anthem products and Akitika.
Thanks, man! Those sound good to me! :)
I currently have 3 Wiim amps around the house, all connected to the network via ethernet cable. The best part about these amps for me is 1) HDMI arc audio control (nice to use TV remote and have only 1 remote), 2) Airplay 2 (easily select audio source from my iphone and can play multiple wiim amps at the same time), 3) with my applications, the sound quality has been excellent! It will provide more than enough volume, even in large rooms. I have been into audio and speaker equipment for 20 plus years, and feel I understand what is well balanced sound, and I feel strongly this amp provides quality, and strong sound. If you have giant speakers, like 200-250 speakers that require a massive amp, you'll probably be disappointed with the Wiim. I have not tested this at very high volumes for long periods of time so i cant comment on that.
Absolutely excellent review sir! I love how you have the tools and knowledge to break down how and just as importantly, why, something produces sound like it does.
I appreciate that!
The features on these Wiim devices are crazy! I got the Amp first but decided to go with the Pro Plus and a separate amp, not because I needed it, but just because I could. I was impressed that you could change the output voltage on the Pro Plus; 2v, 1v, etc and then cap the max volume to exactly match the input of your amp.
This amp fit my needs for a sound bar replacement that is used for music only. Wiim amp, Polk XT60 tower, Emotiva SE8 subwoofer.
I love your reviews. You are one of the few people I trust. :)
If Sonos had decent EQ, I wouldn't even be looking at this device. I've had 10 zones of Sonos for about 15 years and I love it. I'm moving to a new house soon and I want step up the quality on everything. My problem is that ceiling speakers sound terrible, and most of the outdoor speakers aren't much better. I suspect that many affordable speakers could sound much better with EQ. For half of my house, the Wiim amp is plenty. But outdoors, and the main living area will need more power. 4 Wiim Pros plus an 8-channel 250w Buckeye amp is still cheaper than 4 Sonos Amps, even after my 30% loyalty discount.
So 10 zones of Wiim (6 amps, and 4 pros) would be $6200. 10 Sonos amps with the 30% discount would be $4900, but there would be no PEQ. To try to use Sonos ports with a mini DSP and an amp would cost a small fortune and be a big mess in the rack and harder to use than the Wiim.
I guess the best solution is to spend stupid money on good ceiling speakers and stay with Sonos.
I still have a few months to decide.
Hey, if you're interested into distortion in electronics, especially multi tone distorsion, you can look at IIP3 measurements. For single tone distortion, you can look at 1dB compression point. It's something we use a lot in RF circuits because we care about linearity, and it's a more methodological way to look at it than choosing a random power input. In that sense, you can really compare amplifier because you know precisely at which input or output level they have compression/distorsion
Great review and totally different to most (if not all) other reviews, and therefore very valuable.
Excellent!!! This review, your first off this type, was FANTASTIC!!!! MORE PLEASE!!!!! Did you say there was a crossover built in to the Wiim software/app?
Thanks!
Yes, when you engage the subwoofer output, you can adjust the crossover from 30 Hz to 250 Hz. The crossover slope is not adjustable but the frequency is.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Sorry, I meant to specify, is there a hi-pass filter for the speakers? Thank you so much for your reply! Made my day! I really enjoy your review and am soo happy you are back and better than ever!
I am running the WiiM amp for my outdoor system, and it is working great so far. It is powering 2 pairs of Polk Atrium 8 SDI in parallel (4 ohms/channel), with a Crown XLS1002 and a Dayton outdoor subwoofer, crossover set at 80 Hz. I airplay the audio from the outdoor Apple Tv to the WiiM amp for TV, and this solved a low volume issue I was having with a Bluesound Node when using the same way. Music sounds good, I've had it at reasonable levels with no shutdowns so far. This seems like a good use case where critical listening and super loud volumes are not needed as it is usually for background music.
Thanks for reviewing!
This is probably a TPA3255 "chip amp" with a nice selection of potentially useful "bells and whistles" on the input side -- as such, it's a pretty decent value and surely the EQ feature can be used to mitigate any FR irregularities that turn out to be audible. It's not something I personally have any use for, but it's certainly an impressive little product for a wide range of use cases -- and it certainly provides a good deal more "bang for the buck" than something like the $800 PS Audio Sprout100.
It is a TPA3255 ... but I suspect they're using current limiting (pin 7) to mitigate a thermal problem with all that electronics jammed into such a small case.
You knocked it out of the park. All of the relative information without the BS. I'm thinking power supply size on that 30 watt power drop with multi-tone only can do so much with the size and the price. If it had an external power supply that could have been easily tested but everything's a trade-off.
From the specs. I would think it's running on either a 32 or 36 volt, probably 5amp supply.
This little amp does exactly what I was trying to do with my TV set up. Recently upgraded from an old plasma with RCA to an LG C3 and needed an HDMI/optical in since my old Yamaha receiver didn't have either. Wanted something small, sleek, and powerful enough for 2 monoprice bookshelfs. This thing fit the bill and with the new set up I've cleared my entertainment center of everything but the WiimAmp (Xbox, receiver are gone). One thing I was really happy about is that it allows me to use the LG Magic Remote with no issues.
Great idea to test the power rating with multi-tone vs a single tone! Thanks for that addition providing great real-world AND technical review.
I have this integrated amp paired with KEF R3 Metas in my office (Yes, I know it is a mismatch and will eventually move it to replace the soundbar in my bedroom.) I compared it to the SMSL AO300 (thanks Amazon!). My main mode of playback is DLNA over Ethernet using the Asset UPnP server and Bubble UPnP app on Android. (The WiiM app is great, but I mostly use it for device configuration.) My take is the AO300 is better sounding (especially via Bluetooth LDAC which the WiiM does not support) with more connectivity, power, and format/CODEC support than the WiiM. IMO the WiiM is market focused on regular consumers, not audiophiles or engineers (and I am in firmly in both camps). Even, so I kept the WiiM because it supports a subwoofer with adjustable high-pass to the speakers, it has a modest PEQ, and better device and mobile app software support (AO300 has no mobile app). WiiM SW support is automatic and happens behind the scene. SMSL required downloading and installing a driver from a DOS shell. As an engineer, this wasn't anything new or difficult, but neither is it where the market is today.
I listen to this setup daily in both near-field and 6' distances in my office. The power is adequate for that. On compressed albums it gets louder than I care to listen. On audiophile full dynamic range albums, I wish I could turn it up louder. Overall, I enjoy the WiiM and the music it brings to the office. Even though it has limited I/O and power, for $300 I found it to compelling to pass up.
Great review Erin! Looking forward to more electronics review from your channel!
Really good review, you are on to something by looking into amp performance with both simple and complex signals. Most other reviewers do not have this ability or your expertise in speaker design and interface.
You picked a fun little amp to review as it is so versatile. Would like to know how the stereo amp performs when in 2.1 channel mode with lows filtered at about 80 Hz.
Thanks.
I had a subwoofer connected and was quite happy with it. Being able to adjust the crossover on the app from the seat is excellent. Makes dialing the crossover frequency in much easier.
Thanks again for another great review!
The Wiim has a nice feature set. Would be ok nearfield for me, but not enough output for my theater or music needs. Once you own some pro audio gear, you will find a lot of the consumer stuff lacks output. Erin, thanks for another great review.
Great review!!!! More AMP review to come like this💯
I am pretty happy with mine, I have Kef R3 Metas and a monolith thx sub with crossover set at 80hz. I was planning on moving it to the bedroom and replacing it with the Wiim Ultra when it comes out(Q2) and drive the r3's with Fossi Za3 mono blocks. I listen from 75-85 decibels at 9 feet and it hits at least 97 decibels maxed out which is uncomfortably loud for me.
I’m not in the market for an amp…that being said…I was anxious to see what Erin had to say about this affordable amp…
and I was not disappointed…
I’m no longer a “newbie” nor do I consider myself an audiophile…but I have learned over the years that ya gotta be careful which Hi-Fi TH-camr’s to trust…so for those who are here to research this amp…and U like what Erin had to say…I feel very confident that U can trust what this man has to say…just my humble opinion…
we appreciate ya Erin!
Simple rule ... No measurements? It's *advertising*
Great video! Do you think integrating a subwoofer with a pair of bookshelf speakers could make it into the living room without affecting sound quality?
I’m wondering the same.
We need PEQ and a highpass in all amps!!! Also wished this has a pre out, that would solve all power problems.
Great test with relevant info thanks brother !
This was a really awesome analysis and exactly what I was hoping for in your new journey into electronics videos. I’m so glad I didn’t hear the words “chocolaty” or “organic”
Ohhhh. "organic". I like that one. LOL
Great real-world review. Hope to see more amp reviews. Btw, did you ever do a video on the Polk R500s?
Thanks. It's coming. I'm working on that one right now.
If you use a subwoofer, and say a 150Hz or 200Hz DSP crossover - does that change the effective power availability enough to make it more widely applicable?
I tried to test this but I don't have the means at the moment. I'd say it is certainly plausible but that doesn't mean it's true, at least in this case.
I've got the same question. I think a lot of people have this question. If paired with a powered sub, will I be happy with the power output since presumably more power would be available for the main speakers. For testing, could you just plug an RCA into the sub out, set the crossover and measure the decibel output with the crossover engaged? (Meaning you wouldn't need a sub to test this)
Reading over the comments, I think we need to talk about reasonable expectations.
These devices are clearly MID-FI ... they're intended for people like me who never "crank it up" and don't expect concert level playback in wildly sound absorbing rooms.
Reviewers over time have created the impression that unless an amp or speaker can reach ear-bleed levels, with perfect dispersion and no distortion, they aren't good enough... and that simply is not true. If it will reach a reasonable sound level (70 to 80dba) with inaudible distortion it will be plenty good enough for about 90% of the population.
I use TPA3255 based amps in my main system. I don't do concert levels because I have neighbours, and I like keeping my hearing. I've never felt these amps are lacking... although some are better implemented than others on a technical level.
Has Erin found a major flaw in the Wiim Amp ... probably not. He has discovered an amplifier that will suit the needs of millions of living room and bedroom installations perfectly ... but like most smaller amps (75 watts or less) it's not going to give you concert level output (90+dba) in a large listening room.
I have no doubt the Wiim amp, like it's TPA3255 brethren, was created with the "average user" in mind... with little or no intention of meeting the goals of audiophiles. Like it or not Audiophilia is a fringe hobby... Nobody is building reasonably priced gear for you, if you want to play the big game you're gonna get stuck with the high prices.
Agreed. It's a great piece of gear for most people. I'm actually buying this review sample to use in my bedroom.
@@ErinsAudioCorner
Sure thing. I will not be buying one but if asked I will be happy to evaluate one for a friend or client. I've heard one at a neighbour's house and it's a pretty decent little setup. He runs it in his living room where it seems to meet their needs just fine.
It appears to be the guys expecting to hook this up in their dedicated listening rooms and replace $100,000 systems that are be dumping on it. But then, they dump on most everything... so no surprises there.
I'm glad you decided to do the amp measurements! Great review, 30watts per channel will be plenty for me. Low end provided by a sub. Can't wait, great little amp by wiim!
Great contextual review.. very helpful. Thank you..
one problem I had with the WiiM was lack of bass , was comparing 2 pairs of speakers with the WiiM and SONOS AMP ,at fairly high listening volume, and the WiiM was very bass thin , even when I cranked the bass EQ up.Not sure what that was , but it was a very obvious difference.perhaps with a subwoofer it won't matter.
Something to try ... instead of turning up the bass, turn down the mid and treble.
If the amplifier (any amplifier) is close to it's power limits, turning things up is likely to lead to clipping, literally demanding more than it can give. The minimal result of this will be an increase in distortion without an increase in loudness, in extreme cases is can generate a lot of harmonic content that is known to damage tweeters.
I think my mistake was to try different speakers with different amps , for the lack of a switch box that's all I had at that time. probably not a fair comparison
@@Douglas_Blake_579
Still digesting this information ...
at 14:45 the multitone test was run at 1% thd ... that is well beyond clipping.
The clipping level is the sharp bend in the THD shown at 13:10 ... called a "knee point" (for some reason). Per TI's chip data this knee point and the vertical rise in distortion is actually happening at about 0.1% distortion, or less.
Class D amplifiers, especially those on SMPS regulated supplies do not demonstrate the same "headroom" as a class A/B amp. Because there is no power supply build-up and roll-off like the unregulated supplies in A/B amps, these PWM amps hit the roof pretty hard with no burst level available. This does not mean they have no headroom, what it actually means is that, with a regulated supply, the traditional A/B burst level headroom is available to them all the time. (And FWIW... an A/B amp with a similarly regulated supply would exhibit the same behaviour.)
If you monitor pin 21 (~CLIP/OTW) of the TPA3255 chip, you will discover that it signals clipping at about 90% of the maximum output power. This is the point where the PWM pulses are becoming too narrow and there is a risk of the output transistors failing to turn on. Typically these amplifiers will inject a "minimum width" pulse to prevent this. You can see it on an oscilloscope, looking at one side of the BTL bridge, as the top of the analog output wave form becoming unstable. But keep in mind this is happening at about 400khz and it is in phase on both sides of the BTL bridge, so it produces no output on a speaker and even if it did it would be at frequencies way way way beyond our hearing limits.
Also at this clipping point the chip may begin current limiting as part of it's self-protection circuits, to prevent overheating. When this starts, pin 21 will latch low and the TPA3255 will reduce it's output according to the current limit set on Pin 7 (OC_ADJ). In this state it is not reducing output power, it is rolling back it's gain to prevent over-heating. (So-called "soft clipping")
The best I can determine is that with a multi-tone signal with each tone at 1% thd levels the power drop is actually deliberate because (A) the chip is running well beyond analog clipping and (B) it is getting close to it's thermal limit.
By repeating the multi-tone test I think you would find that the power discrepancy does not happen until you reach about 90% of full output which should be at about 0.1% THD.
I hope this helps...
Thanks.
FWIW, I actually went back and changed the protocol for the high output test. I decided that it makes more sense to test to the manufacturers rated output. And doing so, the output was 120 W with a single tone. But with multitone it was 87 W. So it actually, decreased by about 5 W compared to my original test in this video.
I would like to be able to test with a high Pass filter in place on the WiiM, but the multitone signal is expecting something there so the power calculation is incorrect. There’s no way to add my own test signal via quantum, either.
@@ErinsAudioCorner
I'll see your concern ... and raise you some confusion...
That many tones all at levels well beyond clipping is not something an amplifier would ever run into in day to day use. The normal decay in power with frequency of music pretty much avoids it entirely. So, I'm not sure that is a good representation of an amplifier's capability.
Don't get me wrong ... in terms of torture testing it is rather revealing of some issue in the Wiim amp. Time will tell if it's a common issue or something unique to this implementation.
Right now my money is on current or thermal limiting... both of which can be a good thing in extreme overdrive situations.
My A07 which runs on a 36volt 10a supply only dropped by about 3 watts, the TB10Ds will drop about 6 watts on a 6 tone overdrive with the same supply.
Will the QA device not allow you to measure with external signal generators? That would suck.
So, going forward, it might be a good idea to keep track of which amps do this and which don't... then perhaps at some point we can look at why...
A very good test I think. Interesting to get deeper into amps. Keep it up 👍
I use the WiiM Pro Plus streamer for the EQ function- so, so useful.
I think adding a powered sub should help in minimizing the output concerns.
Though I think if WiiM launched a more powerful version and/or one with Pre-outs and charged more, I would buy it yesterday! If they BOTH a stronger amp (comparable to the PowerNode) and pre-outs, I'd be more than fine paying 2-3X the price.
Well done. Looking forward to seeing more electronics reviews.
I think I could mount this on the wall behind the TV and get the receiver out of a vented cabinet. I'll have to keep it in mind. Would be better with an HDMI out for replacing a receiver.
This could I suspect work well with my 99db per watt open baffles, especially considering I run a separate amp for the lower bass drivers. The option of EQ would be very useful.
@ErinsAudioCorner
Great review. Interesting revelation regarding the power output with the multi-tone input signal.
Here's a surprise use for this - over 120dB SPL bass from this amp - really. I have four Eminence Sigma 18" speakers mounted in the front wall of my studio, with a store-room/garage on the other side, so truly infinite baffle. The top speakers are paired in parallel with the bottom ones, hence 8 ohm loading, and I use a (specially built) 50W per channel amp (100W into 4 ohm) to drive them, with built in simple EQ which is needed below 50Hz for infinite baffle. The thing is, these speakers are not 85dB per Watt they are 99dB/W. So with 100W that translates to 120db SPL at one metre from each pair. The response is -3dB at 12 Hz, and because of the huge cone area, travel is minimised and hence low distortion. THIS BEATS TOP subwoofers like the JTR RS1 (costing £3000) in every respect!! The speaker drivers are £220 each, so total cost with the amp around £1000, and stunning results (it's APERIODIC unlike most ported subs).
When subs are not in a box, fighting the internal pressure, and with such high sensitivity speakers, they only need 50W in place of 2000W to produce 120dB plus.
So thanks for this, because I think I am going to get the WiiM amp as it gives inbuilt flexible EQ. However, I was really hoping it would include variable delay (easy to realise in a digital system) but it doesn't seem to. That's because I want to use more subs around the room of this design to introduce cancellation of room mode resonances. I'd really love to see delays built into this.
Im on the verge of buying another bluesound device for upstairs. Have a NODE X downstairs that I love, and thinking about getting a powernode or powernode edge for a small system upstairs in my loft area. Id love to see a review of one of those.
Erin you can still use a mini dsp with integrated amplifier. USB to DSP to Intrgrated or main pre out to dsp to main cd in.
I think it’s a great value option but it’s not going to compare to avr’s with power, features, connections, adjustments via eq, dsp configurations and room correction ie Dirac, mcaac, etc.
Great for a bedroom or smaller room on a secondary system.
I said something similar in another comment here, but I agree...depending on your use case and the level of simplicity vs. complexity desired.
Adorama recently had/has the Onkyo TX-NR6050 7.2-Channel 8K Network AV Receiver On Sale for $299 ($329 Off MSRP).
It is rated at 90 WPC @ 8 ohm (200 WPC "Dynamic", which I'd be curious to see how a test would determine this), but it offers quite a bit more functionality overall, with built-in Streaming/Or use other streaming apps/protocols, a Tuner, Phono Turntable preamp input, More HDMI/Analog/Digital Inputs, Subwoofer Out, etc.
But it's definitely a larger box, though more versatile for the price. It's going to depend on your use case scenario.
@@bbfoto7248 ya it does depend on use case.
I currently am using 2 pioneer avr’s the Elite 504 and the Elite 103 I don’t use the built in streamer on them though I use the Bluesound Node 130 for the 504 and the Node 2i on the 103. I’m planning to get the eversolo dmp a6 master edition . I love the versatility of the avr’s they also have really good AKM dac chips in them.
Wiim is good value on all their products but I doubt I’d buy one. Cheers 🍻
Thanks, I am considering this one for a small room with only two ceiling mounted speakers.
My question though is have you considered measuring the Fosi ZA3? It comes with a 48 v power supply as an option, can be used in mono mode and has sub out.
This can be used in mono and also has subwoofer out. I like that this has inputs and makes for an all-in-one solution.
Good info! I'd love to get your impression of the WiiM driving the R500s, as I'm considering them both for a small-ish system.
Great review! Love the format
Best amplifier under $1,000 🤔
Your review was thankfully missing the hype or clickbait
I watch a lot of reviews and you do a great job of fact and subjective impressions.
This amplifier is not for me at present but knowing Wiim I expect continued improvements
Very informative video! Thanks! If I do decide to buy this unit, do I need a phono preamp or I just directly connect my turntable? What about turntables with built in preamp? Will it be a problem? Thanks!
Great review Erin. One detail I have not yet found is the nature of the output volume control. Do you know if the WiiM Amp controls volume digitally, as in the Mini, Pro or Pro+, or is the volume control an analog control of the amp output?
Works fine on my patio, four speakers. Replaced a NUVO One that failed. SeriusXm via Chromecast. Perfect for my needs.
Does the power output improve if you use a more powerful power supply?
It might. But the power supply is built in on this one.
This product is for distributed audio multiroom systems as a SONOS alternative (in ceiling or in wall speakers) or smaller speakers in a bedroom or office. People using it for anything beyond that are missing the point. Like using a motorcycle to go grocery shopping.
Yup, agreed - I am using this in my bedroom powering Klipsch RP-600M Mk II bookshelf speakers with a Cambridge Audio Minx M301 subwoofer and the sound is fantastic!!!
Small room, Polk RTi A3, think just enough for me, ordered mine today. As usual, great video and excellent review.
If power is a concern but a person likes the Wiim ecosystem and feature set, getting a WiiM mini or Pro + a beefier amp could be a solution
Great review with great tests. So when you set the sub crossover point, it's feeding the mains a signal above that? So not just a crossover point for the sub, but also the mains? I am shocked at all they put into this amp. I would like to see their next amp to provide twice the power and 2 sub outputs - very important for those running subs up past 80 hz. Those are the only two issues I see, except overall sound quality.
That is correct. The crossover is active for the mains and the subwoofer pre-out.
I'm debating between this and an SMSL AO300 + a WIIM Pro. I've got a pair of ELAC debut B6's, so they're 6ohm and this would give 90W per speaker. The SMSL AO300 would give 125W per channel. Would that actually make a material difference?
The general consensus on this product seems to be that you CAN do better with separates, but the convenience of the Wiim Amp is through the roof for the right application. Separates: Wiim Mini, SMSL SU-1 DAC, Fosi V3 amp, HDMI converter if needed. Thats like $250 to $300 and I'm sure sounds and tests better (based on great numbers for the V3).
Probably the biggest issue I see with the low power of the Wiim Amp is that for a compact system, you're likely to use compact, cheaper, high draw speakers. It's an odd design in that sense. I'd be quick to recommend the Dayton 402x with the Wiim Amp as a killer sub $400 system, but the Dayton is like 81db sensitive... so I'd have to recommend the separates. It's not till you get to an 87 or 88db sensitive 5" monitor (with mediocre bass tuning) that things get reasonable. NEEDING to add a sub is an oversight for an amp designed for compact systems. Those Daytons will put out useful bass, but need power to do it.
They should package it with an outboard power supply (I hate that I just said that) or make the box big enough to produce a true 50 wpc.
Instead of the WIIM Mini and SU-1 the WIIM Pro plus. Get the Fosi ZA3 instead, because it has a sub out and can be used in Mono PBTL mode. You have a better upgrade path that way. You can add a second ZA3 and a separate DAC later. It will cost you 70 bucks more but you are getting more and better power out of the bat. Alternatively the Aiyima A07 MAX. (No sub out tho)
Boom. Or get an SMSL a300 integrated amp. You dont even need a dac or streamer for a while becasue of nice BT connection. It has remote, hipass crossover and full sub out.@@D1N02
I'm curious about the reliability of the ARC input. I have an Arylic B50 and the ARC is fairly useless. About half the time the receiver won't turn on when the TV turns on which kind of defeats the purpose of ARC...
I only had the demo unit for about 3 weeks so I can’t speak to long term. I have asked to buy the review sample they sent but haven’t heard back yet.
If you have the Wiim amp using the EQ really makes the amp sound better. The amp has a very natural sound .
Remember that 90W vs. 120W is just over 1dB. Most people would never even notice the difference in maximum output.
Indeed.
Thank you kindly Erin,, 🌟🙏🌟
went with the russound ava31 instead of the wiim... the Wiim is a bit too thick to mount behind a tv and no center channel. Not too many reviews on the russound system
Very fair review - nice work. I had expected more negativity,but this review is a pleasant surprise. Thanks for keeping it real.