Why all of the continual secrecy about revealing new components? You should consider changing the name of the channel to Jay's Audio Mystery, the soap opera of audio.
I understand that theory but really doubt it applies here. Those interested in high end audio will come back, just more aggravated by the continual teases.
For me not knowing what is in the rest of the system kind of muddies these discussions. Do I like a tubed preamp? Yup …but not with most tubed Dacs. So what is the Dac ?
While we should have one objective standard, which is live unamplified music, to compare with the sound in our systems, people put different values in the several attributes of the sound they hear. I have listened to many systems together with audiophile friends, and some put more value in atributes such as detail, width of soundstange and timbre of certain instruments. I for example, put a lot of value in timbre of instruments, bass extension and detail, dynamics and body density of players in the soundstage. I prefer a system with more body density and dynamics than detail if a tradeoff is needed. So, there is personal preference, because people give different values to the several sound atributes.
I enjoy the cammaradarie of likeminded, respectful but honest, neutral audiophile friends the way Jay and gang have had a great time. Enjoy and thank you for the share.
I like tubes with horn speakers, and some super high efficiency speakers, depending of the drivers. But when it comes to driving a pair of large, floor standing, power hungry, multi-driver, full range speakers, I prefer absolute, solid state horsepower!!! Based on my vast experience, I've found that, overall, I do prefer solid state over tubes. Of course, system matching is critical.
Yep, Solid State vs Tubes still an interesting contrast in 2023. It would be interesting to try something like the VAC statement preamp which does dynamics and speed and bass control very well with all the virtues of tubes, truth to timbre and spatial accuracy, etc. Very pricey tho, but competitive with the best solid state. Speaking of which, imo, the Dartz pre really is one for the ages. Imo, for solid state , it has the naturalness and oganicness of tubes in many ways, but without the limitations. That's what I would buy. BTW, Macintosh's newest flagship preamp had both solid state and tube line stages (yes, two preamps in one) for those who want the best of both worlds.
Great dinner and discussion. Super interesting to hear what your different mates prefer. Also great to see what JAY is thinking of the APEX - what a BEAST 👍
I just watched a TH-cam video on another channel where they reviewed the C12000 pre-amp. One of the reviewers in that video said the C12000 pre-amp in tube mode sounds much different than the C1100 tube pre-amp, the newer C12000 being much cleaner and more neutral, somewhere between the old C1100 tube pre-amp and the new C12000 in solid state mode. They also said it sounded a lot like the MA12000 integrated amp with a tube pre-amp and solid state power output stage. So it appears that McIntosh is trying to take their tube "sound" in a new direction, perhaps more likeable to transitional solid state die-hards. This is one more reason to try the C12000, and even possibly the MA12000 integrated amp. As I stated in another comment, I found out that one can switch between tube and solid state on the C12000 pre-amp on the fly without having to change cables, although you must use the RCA single ended output on the C12000 to your amp (rather than the balanced output on the C12000). For amps with only a XLR input, an adapter can be used to switch from RCA to XLR. The reviewer said it takes about 5 seconds to switch between solid-state and tube mode when making the selection on the remote.
Very well said; I have the MA12000 as my main goal by the end of 2023. Expensive for me but, after all the reviews I have read and watched I’m sure it will be worth the effort.
I went out to the McIntosh website, and the C1100 pre-amp doesn't seem to be listed anymore (unless I missed it somehow). There is a new C12000 pre-amp that has both tube and 100% solid state pre-amp sections that that are completely independent of each (other than being able to use the same input selector) and tube or solid-state pre-amplification output can "supposedly" be used depending on which one the owner prefers based on the music, etc. However, the tube and solid state XLR (and RCA) outputs are different for the tube or solid state pre-amplification signal sent to the power amp, but I assume one could use an XLR switchbox between the C12000 and an amplifier to make the switch between using the C12000 tube pre-amp section and the C12000 solid-state pre-amp section.
Great job Jay! I enjoyed the analogies from everyone. I am glad to see that McIntosh is finally getting some respect as a high end audio product that is priced reasonably and holds its value more than most other products including Gryphon and Boulder!
Great episode ! Jay is onto something, and it is the old audiophile chestnut. Keeping the dialogue is nice, it is not about right or wrong. One thing: we never listen to reproduced music, we listen to reproduced recordings of music. Recordings are a creative thing done by artists. Tube rolling in the McIntosh brings substantial gains by the way. Kudos!
Good discussion. Good analogy about the cars. That's why I owned both Lexus LC500 and Porsche 911 both are good but totally different ride and experience.
I was the Kenwood rep way back in the '70's when they introduced the Audio Purist line. It had the best specs of any amp on the market by a length. I provided my demo LO-7Ms to a dealer that then provided them to Harry Pearson of Absolute Sound. The comments I got when I picked the units up was that they think they just heard the most technically perfect amps they have ever heard. But they are not sure how they feel about that. So yes personal choice! And technical accuracy is not always what some choose. BTW, Harry then bought a pair and used them as reference for years.
This is almost like my expirience with the Mcintosh 1.2kw monoblocks, the smoothness took over. Great for long listening without fatigue but missing out on the extra dynamics and details. Great Video Jay!
Hi Jay I am glad that your guess appreciated the Mcintosh pre-amp. Maybe not the best one on the market but at least it is demonstrating that not all owners of Mcintosh purchase this brand only for the blue meters.
Recently had a similar conversation with 2 audiophiles in a listening session comparing Tube vs solid state amps and different speakers. My friend Mike (Tube, &vinyls) likes soft, darker sound, I prefer more natural transparent, energetic, dynamic sound while Thomas likes a combo. As you mentioned, the good thing with a more resolving system, you can always turn the volume down to listen for hours but you can't get the punchy and kick with a softer sounding system.
Jay, Sounds like you are after the same experience that I look for, standing centerstage about at the 30 yard line during a live performance in front of two columns of Marshall amps. Sometimes it is nice though to just let the music carry you for long periods. Jeff Rowland's gear is also known for that!
🎉 I love this Jay and you are right, a lot of it even in the upper echelons of opulence, it will be a matter of what suits ones palate... And here Is something you don't realise... And that is, it's the same thing at high end recording and mastering suites.... Look at those recording studios careful and you will see they have different gear... Absolutely and they do sound different... But still we love it and appreciate what how they achieve the recordings the way they do and we still chase their results... 😉
The C1100 only has a tube output stage vs the C12000 where you can choose tube or solid state. I have my C1100 paired with the McIntosh MC1.25KW and the synergy is crazy they are meant for each other, mis matching pre and power from different companies are not the best way to go IMHO. My speakers are Monitor Audio Platinum PL500 and the base from the MC1.25KW is insane!
I looked at the C12000 owners manual and it "appears" that one would have to have some kind of XLR switch box between the C12000 and amplifier to be able to select between tube or solid-state pre-amp modes (unless I am missing something).
@Mark-rw3kw there are 2 different outputs at the back of the C12000 one is for tube the other SS you have to physically unplug the cables at the back which go into your powers amps each time you want to swap between tube and SS
@@jiyadas Yes, that is what I thought I said. But I was speculating that one could put an XLR switch box between the pre-amp and amp to handle that. The switch box would have two inputs from the pre-amp and one output to the amp.
Just for the record, McIntosh marketing on their website says the C12000 can be used in either tube or solid-state mode as desired depending on the music being played. Obviously, it is not practical to move the cables for each song, so I don't know why they didn't include a switch internally so the same output cable to the amp could be used, and the owner could select tube or solid-state mode with the remote for each song (or even right in the middle of a song).
And in recording studios they will use or might not use tube preamps or for the compression processing it's usually a hybrid mixture... And it's taste....
I went down Mcintosh road. Good luck if you have a problem. Mine was DOA and it sat in NY, Mac HQ for 7 months. Had to hire an attorney to get it resolved. Never again. Support is bad.
You never see a tube amp driving a subwoofer. The output transformers in tube amps start becoming non-linear in the lower bass frequencies. Transistors are current devices which is what woofer voice coils need, strong current.
Jay: The big question is this, is the C11000 any better than the C55? I have watched another review from the Mac dealer in Canada that took 3 guys and did a side-by-side comparison and they all agreed the C55 came in best. I'm running it with a pair of 451 dual mono.
Love the channel, enthusiasm and products, but: There is no such word as advices. “One Of The Best Advices I Can Give you - Be Careful With This Hobby - Serious Consequences If You DO NOT Get A Hold Of You!”
Has anyone tried a hybrid tube/solid-state pre-amp, like the BHK Signature Preamplifier, which has the following design according to their website: "The BHK Signature Preamplifier features two 12AU7 dual triode vacuum tubes in the input stage that act as a zero feedback balanced input amplification pair. Finally, the output stage is a high-bias class A MOSFET design that is unaffected by cable and power amplifier interface challenges."
When a component adds a sound or colors the sound it maybe pleasant but it is not accurate. Horns have bite, so does electric guitar and rounding those is a definite coloration You choose what you like but by definition something colored is not correct
I couldn't find the C1100 on the McIntosh website, but I thought it only operates in tube mode (unlike the C12000 which can operated in tube or solid-state mode).
It would be interesting if you gave your friends a memory lost spell (careful what I write, always be someone that will take me serious, so let's be whimsical and not pharxxxx), then restart the experience with the mystery pre first. Did your other guest listen to the C1100 last?
Maybe you should try Lamm LL1.1. Signature Preamp with this system and record video comparing it with other preamp. Great video Jay! I love how you think about audio and life in general. i always learn something new! Thank you for your time and effort and energy.
How about audiophiles use some sense and ask the people who don't have a financial interest to satisfy, who actually understand the many types of distortions that most are unaware of, and who actually design and build and test the genuine ULTRA HIGH END that actually performs ridiculously beyond most of the jeweled up junk pawned off to the gullible buyers
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Love this discussion! Like hearing the reactions of a group of savvy and experienced audiophiles. More of this please
Cool
I agree!
Why all of the continual secrecy about revealing new components? You should consider changing the name of the channel to Jay's Audio Mystery, the soap opera of audio.
It keeps people returning to the channel waiting for the reveal.
I understand that theory but really doubt it applies here. Those interested in high end audio will come back, just more aggravated by the continual teases.
For me not knowing what is in the rest of the system kind of muddies these discussions. Do I like a tubed preamp? Yup …but not with most tubed Dacs. So what is the Dac ?
While we should have one objective standard, which is live unamplified music, to compare with the sound in our systems, people put different values in the several attributes of the sound they hear.
I have listened to many systems together with audiophile friends, and some put more value in atributes such as detail, width of soundstange and timbre of certain instruments. I for example, put a lot of value in timbre of instruments, bass extension and detail, dynamics and body density of players in the soundstage. I prefer a system with more body density and dynamics than detail if a tradeoff is needed. So, there is personal preference, because people give different values to the several sound atributes.
Agreed 👍😊
This hobby is extremely personal. There is no absolute. We all hear and like different things.
I enjoy the cammaradarie of likeminded, respectful but honest, neutral audiophile friends
the way Jay and gang have had a great time.
Enjoy and thank you for the share.
Great discussion. Love this hobby for all the variations and combinations we can experiment with.
Absolutely!
I like tubes with horn speakers, and some super high efficiency speakers, depending of the drivers. But when it comes to driving a pair of large, floor standing, power hungry, multi-driver, full range speakers, I prefer absolute, solid state horsepower!!! Based on my vast experience, I've found that, overall, I do prefer solid state over tubes. Of course, system matching is critical.
Awesome! Thank you! One of my favorite videos that you’ve done.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I like lots of dynamics. But natural sounding. Great channel.
Dangerous question. Did you try different tubes in the C11000?
Yep, Solid State vs Tubes still an interesting contrast in 2023. It would be interesting to try something like the VAC statement preamp which does dynamics and speed and bass control very well with all the virtues of tubes, truth to timbre and spatial accuracy, etc.
Very pricey tho, but competitive with the best solid state. Speaking of which, imo, the Dartz pre really is one for the ages. Imo, for solid state , it has the naturalness and oganicness of tubes in many ways, but without the limitations. That's what I would buy. BTW, Macintosh's newest flagship preamp had both solid state and tube line stages (yes, two preamps in one) for those who want the best of both worlds.
Great discussions. Very interesting when you engage other audiophiles or/and pro in your system review 👍Thanks !
Great dinner and discussion. Super interesting to hear what your different mates prefer. Also great to see what JAY is thinking of the APEX - what a BEAST 👍
I just watched a TH-cam video on another channel where they reviewed the C12000 pre-amp. One of the reviewers in that video said the C12000 pre-amp in tube mode sounds much different than the C1100 tube pre-amp, the newer C12000 being much cleaner and more neutral, somewhere between the old C1100 tube pre-amp and the new C12000 in solid state mode. They also said it sounded a lot like the MA12000 integrated amp with a tube pre-amp and solid state power output stage. So it appears that McIntosh is trying to take their tube "sound" in a new direction, perhaps more likeable to transitional solid state die-hards. This is one more reason to try the C12000, and even possibly the MA12000 integrated amp.
As I stated in another comment, I found out that one can switch between tube and solid state on the C12000 pre-amp on the fly without having to change cables, although you must use the RCA single ended output on the C12000 to your amp (rather than the balanced output on the C12000). For amps with only a XLR input, an adapter can be used to switch from RCA to XLR. The reviewer said it takes about 5 seconds to switch between solid-state and tube mode when making the selection on the remote.
Very well said; I have the MA12000 as my main goal by the end of 2023. Expensive for me but, after all the reviews I have read and watched I’m sure it will be worth the effort.
@@davidsagarra9841 I suspect that you will be very happy with the MA12000.
I went out to the McIntosh website, and the C1100 pre-amp doesn't seem to be listed anymore (unless I missed it somehow). There is a new C12000 pre-amp that has both tube and 100% solid state pre-amp sections that that are completely independent of each (other than being able to use the same input selector) and tube or solid-state pre-amplification output can "supposedly" be used depending on which one the owner prefers based on the music, etc. However, the tube and solid state XLR (and RCA) outputs are different for the tube or solid state pre-amplification signal sent to the power amp, but I assume one could use an XLR switchbox between the C12000 and an amplifier to make the switch between using the C12000 tube pre-amp section and the C12000 solid-state pre-amp section.
It has been discontinued
Great job Jay! I enjoyed the analogies from everyone. I am glad to see that McIntosh is finally getting some respect as a high end audio product that is priced reasonably and holds its value more than most other products including Gryphon and Boulder!
Great episode ! Jay is onto something, and it is the old audiophile chestnut. Keeping the dialogue is nice, it is not about right or wrong. One thing: we never listen to reproduced music, we listen to reproduced recordings of music. Recordings are a creative thing done by artists. Tube rolling in the McIntosh brings substantial gains by the way. Kudos!
Good discussion. Good analogy about the cars. That's why I owned both Lexus LC500 and Porsche 911 both are good but totally different ride and experience.
Awesome
I was the Kenwood rep way back in the '70's when they introduced the Audio Purist line. It had the best specs of any amp on the market by a length. I provided my demo LO-7Ms to a dealer that then provided them to Harry Pearson of Absolute Sound. The comments I got when I picked the units up was that they think they just heard the most technically perfect amps they have ever heard. But they are not sure how they feel about that.
So yes personal choice! And technical accuracy is not always what some choose.
BTW, Harry then bought a pair and used them as reference for years.
Interesting 🤔
This is almost like my expirience with the Mcintosh 1.2kw monoblocks, the smoothness took over. Great for long listening without fatigue but missing out on the extra dynamics and details. Great Video Jay!
Hi Jay I am glad that your guess appreciated the Mcintosh pre-amp. Maybe not the best one on the market but at least it is demonstrating that not all owners of Mcintosh purchase this brand only for the blue meters.
Recently had a similar conversation with 2 audiophiles in a listening session comparing Tube vs solid state amps and different speakers. My friend Mike (Tube, &vinyls) likes soft, darker sound, I prefer more natural transparent, energetic, dynamic sound while Thomas likes a combo. As you mentioned, the good thing with a more resolving system, you can always turn the volume down to listen for hours but you can't get the punchy and kick with a softer sounding system.
Jay, Sounds like you are after the same experience that I look for, standing centerstage about at the 30 yard line during a live performance in front of two columns of Marshall amps. Sometimes it is nice though to just let the music carry you for long periods. Jeff Rowland's gear is also known for that!
Absolutely
🎉 I love this Jay and you are right, a lot of it even in the upper echelons of opulence, it will be a matter of what suits ones palate... And here Is something you don't realise... And that is, it's the same thing at high end recording and mastering suites.... Look at those recording studios careful and you will see they have different gear... Absolutely and they do sound different... But still we love it and appreciate what how they achieve the recordings the way they do and we still chase their results... 😉
Good point
Well done Jay, more independent reviews on the channel
The C1100 only has a tube output stage vs the C12000 where you can choose tube or solid state. I have my C1100 paired with the McIntosh MC1.25KW and the synergy is crazy they are meant for each other, mis matching pre and power from different companies are not the best way to go IMHO. My speakers are Monitor Audio Platinum PL500 and the base from the MC1.25KW is insane!
Awesome
I looked at the C12000 owners manual and it "appears" that one would have to have some kind of XLR switch box between the C12000 and amplifier to be able to select between tube or solid-state pre-amp modes (unless I am missing something).
@Mark-rw3kw there are 2 different outputs at the back of the C12000 one is for tube the other SS you have to physically unplug the cables at the back which go into your powers amps each time you want to swap between tube and SS
@@jiyadas Yes, that is what I thought I said. But I was speculating that one could put an XLR switch box between the pre-amp and amp to handle that. The switch box would have two inputs from the pre-amp and one output to the amp.
Just for the record, McIntosh marketing on their website says the C12000 can be used in either tube or solid-state mode as desired depending on the music being played. Obviously, it is not practical to move the cables for each song, so I don't know why they didn't include a switch internally so the same output cable to the amp could be used, and the owner could select tube or solid-state mode with the remote for each song (or even right in the middle of a song).
Try a Doshi Preamp if you want something more resolving for an off the shelf high end tube preamp..
And in recording studios they will use or might not use tube preamps or for the compression processing it's usually a hybrid mixture... And it's taste....
Classical music & complex tracks I tend to prefer " track" mode. Vocals and simpler tracks I prefer "comfort" mode
Awesome episode!
It's the age-old audiophile conundrum:
Do you want your sound to be completely ACCURATE, or do you want it to always sound GOOD?
Would you consider keeping both Tube and solid state preamps so that you can enjoy both depending on your mood?
Solid state preamplifier 💯👍
1100 is eleven hundred. Or you could say one thousand one hundred.
I went down Mcintosh road. Good luck if you have a problem. Mine was DOA and it sat in NY, Mac HQ for 7 months. Had to hire an attorney to get it resolved. Never again. Support is bad.
Wow
You never see a tube amp driving a subwoofer. The output transformers in tube amps start becoming non-linear in the lower bass frequencies. Transistors are current devices which is what woofer voice coils need, strong current.
Older guys like the Tubes, younger guys like the Solid State. Everyone is different, that's what makes it great
Jay: The big question is this, is the C11000 any better than the C55? I have watched another review from the Mac dealer in Canada that took 3 guys and did a side-by-side comparison and they all agreed the C55 came in best. I'm running it with a pair of 451 dual mono.
Love the channel, enthusiasm and products, but:
There is no such word as advices.
“One Of The Best Advices I Can Give you - Be Careful With This Hobby - Serious Consequences If You DO NOT Get A Hold Of You!”
Which one compares to sushi with Japanese beer vs Bud lite with a big mac ..?
can you guys show us the tip you left the waiter
Has anyone tried a hybrid tube/solid-state pre-amp, like the BHK Signature Preamplifier, which has the following design according to their website: "The BHK Signature Preamplifier features two 12AU7 dual triode vacuum tubes in the input stage that act as a zero feedback balanced input amplification pair. Finally, the output stage is a high-bias class A MOSFET design that is unaffected by cable and power amplifier interface challenges."
When a component adds a sound or colors the sound it maybe pleasant but it is not accurate.
Horns have bite, so does electric guitar and rounding those is a definite coloration
You choose what you like but by definition something colored is not correct
With the c1100 were you using the tube or SS output? I like my c12000 although eventually will probably transition to Boulder. Cheers
I couldn't find the C1100 on the McIntosh website, but I thought it only operates in tube mode (unlike the C12000 which can operated in tube or solid-state mode).
@@Mark-rw3kw thanks, I wrongly assumed the c1100 had two outputs like my c12000, cheers!
Is the air conditioning or fan on? Rush of wind sound here.
Microphone gain is high
Dudes, there is not now nor has ever been a McIntosh C11000. Do you mean a C1100? Are you qualified to comment?
It would be interesting if you gave your friends a memory lost spell (careful what I write, always be someone that will take me serious, so let's be whimsical and not pharxxxx), then restart the experience with the mystery pre first. Did your other guest listen to the C1100 last?
Yes
So the Commander is more direct and real than the McIntosh lushness presentation wise
Lol aiming for thrill is easy, you can just hookup 1000w class d amp and blast it will give you live concert performance no question 😂
enough already, what are the mysteries?
It’s not 11,000, it’s 1,100
alsyxox and taiko extreme server the best sound in the world
Surely it's the C eleven HUNDRED not the C eleven THOUSAND that you keep referring to? Numbers not your strong point, Jay.
Why do you always call it eleven thousand? Its eleven hundred.
Use a real tube preamp
Not bells and whistles
Maybe you should try Lamm LL1.1. Signature Preamp with this system and record video comparing it with other preamp.
Great video Jay! I love how you think about audio and life in general.
i always learn something new!
Thank you for your time and effort and energy.
How about audiophiles use some sense and ask the people who don't have a financial interest to satisfy, who actually understand the many types of distortions that most are unaware of, and who actually design and build and test the genuine ULTRA HIGH END that actually performs ridiculously beyond most of the jeweled up junk pawned off to the gullible buyers