if you rotate the motor in reverse rotation 2 turns it frees up the drive dog, its made that way so it doesn't jump out of gear. i always cut in low gear it puts a lot of heat in the cutter in high, actually the whole machine gets hot. i leave about .0015 to .002 to hone out, it makes for a nicer finish in the bore.
That is not enough material to properly finish hone. If using a torque plate it wouldn't even clean up the boring pattern in many blocks since they distort 0.0015"-0.002".
Thanks for the comment. As a few people have pointed out, by rights, I should be leaving more 'meat' to hone- but after doing it this way for years and having nothing but excellent results, I'll continue to plod along :-)
Just got home from driving a 100 miles one way and back to pick up a 944S with complete tool kit and the Van Norman hold down clamp. I'll be reviewing this video and re-reading the comments over and over for a bit until I send 'er on a maiden boring voyage. I know I can take the block to a shop, but I am one of those guys that likes to DIY everything and find out for myself, and I take satisfaction in figuring it out myself. Always been fascinated by the engine boring concept, I saw this video months ago, and it led to me now owning a Van Norman bar. Crazy. Anyway. Maybe I am, but I like engines and drag racing and hot rodding, so, yeah, pretty much.
I love it ! Let us know if the hold-down thinggy works out for you. The one that came with my boring bar was no where near strong enough IMO to trust. So I run a 2 inch pipe through the main saddles (with various random holes) and a piece of 1/2 threaded rod that runs down through a bore, into the pipe, and I ground a piece of 1/2 plate to fit the opening in the back of the boring bar and a hole for the threaded rod. Works great, she's rock solid.
Reason I'm asking bc I work on some very old hit and miss engine s...and sometimes they are rough and pitted from sitting out in element s.....same for 100 yr old tractors....
basically you can lower the boring bar way down into the bore where it normally isn't worn, then lock the machine down on the deck. You have 3 fingers that extend, and they are fairly generous in size, so I doubt pitting would throw you off much.
Very helpful and informative. I bought a boring bar 777 here in Australia and have not used it yet as i didnt know the first thing about it, but now i do! To the scrap yard tommorow to buy an old block. Happy days.
So glad this video helped !. Just go slow, take tiny amounts out of the bore until you get used to the machine. Also, make sure the boring bar is securely fastened so it can't move around. I upgraded the fastening method by buying a piece of 1 inch threaded rod about 18 inches long and a piece of 2 inch pipe that runs thru the mains in the block with holes for the threaded rod. I fitted a plate to the inside of the boring bar, with a hole for the threaded rod. Once that threaded rod is tightened up, the bar is very secure. The original Van Norman clamp was garbage.
Great to learn from you Sir.You're into procedural details which no one in youtube does it. Sir if you may can you kindly do a tutorial on how to grind a worn out out of round crankshaft the details on how setup the crankshaft the control on the depth of cut and the entire process.?
10:50 Sometimes it is a better deal to put a sleeve in one cylinder if all other cylinders are standard bore and in good condition. On the Fiatnutz channel, I did see that with the right boring bar, installing a dry iron sleeve isn't difficult. The downside is that the block deck would have to be machined, and that might end up costing more if the cylinder block already had a good deck finish.
You leave the part that clamps it to the block loose (so the machine can move around), then lower the boring bar into the hole, then wind out the locating fingers that are at the bottom of the bar. As the 4 fingers expand, they will center the bar in the hole, then you tighten down the clamp that secures the machine to the engine block
@@dirtlump No worries my friend, I was just curious if YOU how to do it. I'm not interested in learning. I bought carbide indexible cutting tools. I'm sure you could teach me a lot about this magnificent machine ! Thanks-
If your tool kit is complete dressing the cutters is not hard to do it takes some practice but works well the disc on top of the electric motor is for dressing them and you should have a jig that your cutter goes in and a rod sticking up next to the disc for the jig to slide onto it has different holes to change the angle and dress different parts of the cutter also if you don’t want to leave a scratch when pulling back out of the bore loosen the hold down and slide the bar so the cutter is not contacting the wall
The boring bar has a clamp fixture that holds it tightly to the deck of the block. The block itself does not have to be extremely level, if that is what you are asking.
I can just barely pick it up enough to move it from the bench over onto a table (that has wheels), then roll it over to the chain fall where I lift it up and place it on the engine block. I realize that's more information that you needed, just giving you a sense of it. I'm not sure what it actually weighs, probably 150 lb-200 lb
Trying to bore (more than a couple thousandths) a cylinder using a rigid hone would likely lead to a non-concentric cylinder, and I'm not even sure how you could check it. I've taken .002 inches out using a hone and my arms were ready to fall off :P . But, if you are only talking 1 or 2 cylinders, and only .010 it may be possible
I saw a machine that looked like this hone but it was automatically lifting the hone up and down in the cylinder opening it was also using some kind of cooling liquid. I thought this hone might get a perfect circular cylinder finish but I am not familiar with it.
@@irishguy200007 Yes, that is a common piece of equipment you might see in a large re-manufacturing facility (expensive!) But, it is only used for the final finish.
It has fingers that wind out below the cutting head. You leave the unit loose, wind out the fingers, which centers the boring bar, then lock the unit down at the rear with the large threaded rod and lock nuts.
Sir I’ve been using this machine for a little bit now since watching your video months ago, and I have a question for you, I’ve gotten pretty quick at switching it from cylinder to cylinder, and I’m noticing that it seems to bore out more and more material after I get into my fourth and fifth consecutive cylinders, have you noticed thermal expansion with these things at all? I’m seeing 0.001” by cyl 4 and 0.0015” by cyl 5 then it just gets worse. Just wondering, Thanks!
Thanks Sir, ok, that makes SO much more sense. Thank you for the quick reply! No one does this stuff where I live, so I didn’t have anybody to ask, and it had me worried I was doing something wrong. I appreciate you posting the video, it helped motivate me to track one of these down to get more capable at building and restoring older engines, once I realized that it was doable. I am still learning on it with undesirable old spare blocks right now, but am getting better quick, and it is a very cool tool.
Great video. What type of mounting system are you using? It looks like you have a mandrill going through the mains, is that how you mount your bar? I have a van Norman 900 that I just got, but is missing the hold down fixture and was curious how you mount yours. If you have or know anyone who wants to sell the original mounting fixture please let me know, willing to pay. Thanks again 😬
Forget the original mounting fixture. I have one. It's garbage. It's an expanding shoe that fits into the bore. I'd never trust it. SO, I bought a piece of 2 inch Schedule 40 black pipe (2 inch ID, aprox 2.375 OD) roughly 3 feet long and a piece of 1 inch threaded rod also about 3 feet long. Starting at one end of the 2 inch pipe, about 6 inches in, I drilled a hole so the 1 inch threaded rod could pass thru. I continued drilling holes about every 8 inches along the pipe so I'd have various places for the threaded rod to pass thru. Then, I took some 1/2 plate and torched it out to fit into the rectangular opening at the ass end of the boring bar, and drilled a hole in the center for the threaded rod to pass thru. You can probably picture the rest. You get the pipe in place - going thru the mains, the threaded rod running up an open cylinder, thru the 1/2 plate and run the nuts up on both ends of the threaded rod until they are just touching. Then, lower your boring bar into the cylinder, expand the shoes (centering the boring bar), then tighten up the nuts on the threaded rod. Solid as a rock !
Mark Osborne That’s kind of what I thought you did, and exactly what I planned to do. I have heard that the original hold downs were problems, that’s why they are so hard to find, every machinist tossed them in the scrap bin. I just want the original anchor so the bar is complete. This is where my mental and A.D.D. takes over, I will probably never use it but I have it just in case. 😜 Thanks again for taking the time and if you do know anyone who wants to sell one I’d be more than happy to pay, and give a finders fee.
@@wheels2199 Oddly, when I was in the business I only had the original Van Norman clamping system, and I can't recall the bar ever moving when I used it. Mark's idea for clamping the bar is good, but doesn't allow for reboring while the engine is still in the chassis, and I did a lot of rebores in the chassis, particularly on large commercials, where it was easier for the customer to drop the sump, take out the pistons and rods, and then tape up the crank, than it would have been for them to remove the engine completely. The bars I used were the 944, the 905, and the 777S.
To disengage the auto-feed easier ? If you just spin the lapping wheel backwards a few turns before you try to pull the auto-feed out ? it comes OUT much easier.
if you rotate the motor in reverse rotation 2 turns it frees up the drive dog, its made that way so it doesn't jump out of gear. i always cut in low gear it puts a lot of heat in the cutter in high, actually the whole machine gets hot. i leave about .0015 to .002 to hone out, it makes for a nicer finish in the bore.
I will do exactly that ! ... thank you so much, always wondered why it was so hard to disengage. You're a gem
That is not enough material to properly finish hone. If using a torque plate it wouldn't even clean up the boring pattern in many blocks since they distort 0.0015"-0.002".
Thank very much for taking the time to educate us on the proper way to bore a cylinder block Robert
Thanks for the comment. As a few people have pointed out, by rights, I should be leaving more 'meat' to hone- but after doing it this way for years and having nothing but excellent results, I'll continue to plod along :-)
These are great old machines that last for generations
Awesome. I always found it awesome, not only watching this happen, but to be the one doing it.
Just got home from driving a 100 miles one way and back to pick up a 944S with complete tool kit and the Van Norman hold down clamp. I'll be reviewing this video and re-reading the comments over and over for a bit until I send 'er on a maiden boring voyage. I know I can take the block to a shop, but I am one of those guys that likes to DIY everything and find out for myself, and I take satisfaction in figuring it out myself. Always been fascinated by the engine boring concept, I saw this video months ago, and it led to me now owning a Van Norman bar. Crazy. Anyway. Maybe I am, but I like engines and drag racing and hot rodding, so, yeah, pretty much.
I love it ! Let us know if the hold-down thinggy works out for you. The one that came with my boring bar was no where near strong enough IMO to trust. So I run a 2 inch pipe through the main saddles (with various random holes) and a piece of 1/2 threaded rod that runs down through a bore, into the pipe, and I ground a piece of 1/2 plate to fit the opening in the back of the boring bar and a hole for the threaded rod. Works great, she's rock solid.
Good on ya Doug. I bought one at a closing workshop a few years back. i got it so cheap i dont know how the hell i ran with it to my car!
Thank-you so much for making this video! I'm new to this and just picked up a 777S and this video is priceless!!!
You are so welcome !-- glad to know the video helped someone :-)
Outstanding video, thanks!!
Thx for sharing. I've never seen one of those before.
I'm not into engine machine ing. However, I'm a tool and die maker. Very interesting.
You have a unique skill that is slowly being lost
@mark_osborne yes unfortunately. I got 3 more years left.
Soo what if original bore us pitted or woren pretty bad?? How does guides react and keep everything aligned?? Just curious?? Thanks for video
Reason I'm asking bc I work on some very old hit and miss engine s...and sometimes they are rough and pitted from sitting out in element s.....same for 100 yr old tractors....
basically you can lower the boring bar way down into the bore where it normally isn't worn, then lock the machine down on the deck. You have 3 fingers that extend, and they are fairly generous in size, so I doubt pitting would throw you off much.
Been awhile since I done any boreing. Used to do a bunch years back
Nice, did you use a boring bar similar to mine ?
Very helpful and informative. I bought a boring bar 777 here in Australia and have not used it yet as i didnt know the first thing about it, but now i do! To the scrap yard tommorow to buy an old block. Happy days.
So glad this video helped !. Just go slow, take tiny amounts out of the bore until you get used to the machine. Also, make sure the boring bar is securely fastened so it can't move around. I upgraded the fastening method by buying a piece of 1 inch threaded rod about 18 inches long and a piece of 2 inch pipe that runs thru the mains in the block with holes for the threaded rod. I fitted a plate to the inside of the boring bar, with a hole for the threaded rod. Once that threaded rod is tightened up, the bar is very secure. The original Van Norman clamp was garbage.
Mark Osborne cool, i shall do that. Thank you again.
Great to learn from you Sir.You're into procedural details which no one in youtube does it. Sir if you may can you kindly do a tutorial on how to grind a worn out out of round crankshaft the details on how setup the crankshaft the control on the depth of cut and the entire process.?
You are very kind. I am sorry, I do not have a crank grinder or I'd be glad to help.
10:50 Sometimes it is a better deal to put a sleeve in one cylinder if all other cylinders are standard bore and in good condition. On the Fiatnutz channel, I did see that with the right boring bar, installing a dry iron sleeve isn't difficult. The downside is that the block deck would have to be machined, and that might end up costing more if the cylinder block already had a good deck finish.
Absolutely- it's done all time :-) and if you're really good with the 'face off tool', you can save decking the block.
@@mark_osborne I wasn't aware that the face off tool could be that precise. Thanks for the info!
Can you de bore an engine by putting in standard size liners and pistons?
Absolutely
hi there. great video by the way. how do you align the boring machine centrally to the bore.?
You leave the part that clamps it to the block loose (so the machine can move around), then lower the boring bar into the hole, then wind out the locating fingers that are at the bottom of the bar. As the 4 fingers expand, they will center the bar in the hole, then you tighten down the clamp that secures the machine to the engine block
If I had a nickel..... just kidding, but I've bored hundreds of Blocks with Van Norman Boring Bars, still one of the best in the business.
Nice ! Do you know how to grind the original cutting tools ? I don't
@@mark_osborne Yes, what's the problem ? Probably much easier to just show you in a C-Phone video as I still have a 777S4 bar here ?
@@dirtlump No worries my friend, I was just curious if YOU how to do it. I'm not interested in learning. I bought carbide indexible cutting tools. I'm sure you could teach me a lot about this magnificent machine ! Thanks-
@@mark_osborne
Well Thanks for taking the time to have done these Videos Mark, really is a GREAT help for so many !
@@dirtlump Thank you so much for the kind words !
always liked to see this machine....
thanks !
@@mark_osborne your welcome
If your tool kit is complete dressing the cutters is not hard to do it takes some practice but works well the disc on top of the electric motor is for dressing them and you should have a jig that your cutter goes in and a rod sticking up next to the disc for the jig to slide onto it has different holes to change the angle and dress different parts of the cutter also if you don’t want to leave a scratch when pulling back out of the bore loosen the hold down and slide the bar so the cutter is not contacting the wall
That's how do it
I'm going to buy one today van norman 777 with all tools
Nice ! you'll love it
How does the block sit perfectly were the drill comes down into the cylinder?
I do not understand your question
The boring bar has a clamp fixture that holds it tightly to the deck of the block. The block itself does not have to be extremely level, if that is what you are asking.
how much does that thing weigh?
I can just barely pick it up enough to move it from the bench over onto a table (that has wheels), then roll it over to the chain fall where I lift it up and place it on the engine block. I realize that's more information that you needed, just giving you a sense of it. I'm not sure what it actually weighs, probably 150 lb-200 lb
Mark?
Can you use a rigid hone to bore the cylinder wider.
Trying to bore (more than a couple thousandths) a cylinder using a rigid hone would likely lead to a non-concentric cylinder, and I'm not even sure how you could check it. I've taken .002 inches out using a hone and my arms were ready to fall off :P . But, if you are only talking 1 or 2 cylinders, and only .010 it may be possible
I saw a machine that looked like this hone but it was automatically lifting the hone up and down in the cylinder opening it was also using some kind of cooling liquid. I thought this hone might get a perfect circular cylinder finish but I am not familiar with it.
@@irishguy200007 Yes, that is a common piece of equipment you might see in a large re-manufacturing facility (expensive!) But, it is only used for the final finish.
@@mark_osborne power hone if I remember correctly. Great video,btw.
@@mossranchoutdoors7249 thank you !
How do you know the boring bar is centered in the cylinder?
It has fingers that wind out below the cutting head. You leave the unit loose, wind out the fingers, which centers the boring bar, then lock the unit down at the rear with the large threaded rod and lock nuts.
@@mark_osborne is that similar to how a scroll chuck operates?
Which grade tool are used cutting sir
Carbide insert
I love the video. Where did you get the indexable tooling?
Thank you for watching ! Woodward Equipment www.cylinderheadsupply.com/bv135.html
@@mark_osborne Geez, those are slick ! I've never seen them before.
Sir I’ve been using this machine for a little bit now since watching your video months ago, and I have a question for you, I’ve gotten pretty quick at switching it from cylinder to cylinder, and I’m noticing that it seems to bore out more and more material after I get into my fourth and fifth consecutive cylinders, have you noticed thermal expansion with these things at all? I’m seeing 0.001” by cyl 4 and 0.0015” by cyl 5 then it just gets worse. Just wondering, Thanks!
Absolutely ! the tooling grows from heat.... let it cool off a bit, or wrap it in a cool towel before boring the next cylinder. Great observation !
Thanks Sir, ok, that makes SO much more sense. Thank you for the quick reply! No one does this stuff where I live, so I didn’t have anybody to ask, and it had me worried I was doing something wrong. I appreciate you posting the video, it helped motivate me to track one of these down to get more capable at building and restoring older engines, once I realized that it was doable. I am still learning on it with undesirable old spare blocks right now, but am getting better quick, and it is a very cool tool.
you didn't show how to fasten the machine to the block
This is true- sorry, I should make a video on THAT
Can you put w d 40 in while boring
You probably could, I don't see what it would hurt
Would just make a ton of smoke. No benifit to adding WD-40 while boring.
Great video. What type of mounting system are you using? It looks like you have a mandrill going through the mains, is that how you mount your bar? I have a van Norman 900 that I just got, but is missing the hold down fixture and was curious how you mount yours. If you have or know anyone who wants to sell the original mounting fixture please let me know, willing to pay. Thanks again 😬
Forget the original mounting fixture. I have one. It's garbage. It's an expanding shoe that fits into the bore. I'd never trust it. SO, I bought a piece of 2 inch Schedule 40 black pipe (2 inch ID, aprox 2.375 OD) roughly 3 feet long and a piece of 1 inch threaded rod also about 3 feet long. Starting at one end of the 2 inch pipe, about 6 inches in, I drilled a hole so the 1 inch threaded rod could pass thru. I continued drilling holes about every 8 inches along the pipe so I'd have various places for the threaded rod to pass thru. Then, I took some 1/2 plate and torched it out to fit into the rectangular opening at the ass end of the boring bar, and drilled a hole in the center for the threaded rod to pass thru. You can probably picture the rest. You get the pipe in place - going thru the mains, the threaded rod running up an open cylinder, thru the 1/2 plate and run the nuts up on both ends of the threaded rod until they are just touching. Then, lower your boring bar into the cylinder, expand the shoes (centering the boring bar), then tighten up the nuts on the threaded rod.
Solid as a rock !
Mark Osborne That’s kind of what I thought you did, and exactly what I planned to do. I have heard that the original hold downs were problems, that’s why they are so hard to find, every machinist tossed them in the scrap bin. I just want the original anchor so the bar is complete. This is where my mental and A.D.D. takes over, I will probably never use it but I have it just in case. 😜 Thanks again for taking the time and if you do know anyone who wants to sell one I’d be more than happy to pay, and give a finders fee.
@@wheels2199 Oddly, when I was in the business I only had the original Van Norman clamping system, and I can't recall the bar ever moving when I used it. Mark's idea for clamping the bar is good, but doesn't allow for reboring while the engine is still in the chassis, and I did a lot of rebores in the chassis, particularly on large commercials, where it was easier for the customer to drop the sump, take out the pistons and rods, and then tape up the crank, than it would have been for them to remove the engine completely. The bars I used were the 944, the 905, and the 777S.
To disengage the auto-feed easier ? If you just spin the lapping wheel backwards a few turns before you try to pull the auto-feed out ? it comes OUT much easier.
and that makes a LOT of sense, I will do it next go -thank you !
I just spin the top of the bore shaft .. works great..
You make that look to easy.
I just purchased a 900 could you tell me which tooling I would need for a 4 inch bore and above thanks
Hello sir u nice explain sirplease make how to sharp tool point grand
Sorry Mohdasif I have carbide tooling to replace original- so I don't know how to sharpen
I wish I could help Mohdasif
How to repair machine