Tim… no one does this kind of analytics like you. You’re a gem in this community. I love every bit of this video. Keep doing what you do and keep holding us all to account!
@@AubreyRunning thanks will do. Thought you might recognise “yourselves” at the start :) I did a bit of “crafty” editing to remove the paid for reviews bit. TBH I can’t think of anybody that gets paid to “review” running shoes on TH-cam. Can you ?
@@TimGrose well my understanding is that some rare youtubers had their travel and expenses paid to run some marathons or assist some events so the line can be blurry sometimes :p
@@jean-phil true but I guess the brands need to do all they can to make their products attractive. Personally this stuff is a bit lost on me in terms of being influenced but if you get a free trip be hard to turn down.
@@jean-phil true but I guess the brands need to do all they can to make their products attractive. Personally this stuff is a bit lost on me in terms of being influenced but if you get a free trip be hard to turn down.
@@jean-phil true but I guess the brands need to do all they can to make their products attractive. Personally this stuff is a bit lost on me in terms of being influenced but if you get a free trip be hard to turn down.
Great Tim! Love these videos! I was a bit disappointed I did a one run review on the peg but in all honesty, I wanted my money back and didn’t want to run too much more in them! So I sent them back 🤝 big respect for these videos, must of taken you ages to put these spreadsheets together!!
Thanks for dropping by. In hindsight I might be a little "defensive" about the Pegs as for some reason they just often land up on my feet for runs where I am not bothered about "performance". I just get a bit annoyed when a certain other reviewer just seems to mention them in every other video as a shoe seemingly to be avoided at all costs. This then usually triggers a volley of echo chamber comments. As for the returns policy in hindsight there have been "expensive" shoes like the Ultrafly, Prime X2 Strung and perhaps even Alphafly 3 (to further illustrate we do often like/dislike different shoes) where I could have had almost a grand more in my bank account if had not done more than one test run in each.
ha ha thanks for dropping by. Funny because I spent many hours doing the first few minutes then just chatted away for bit over an hour for the chat on each TH-camr and only just largely edited out the bits when I changed views in Excel. which actually only saved about 10 mins. In hindsight realised if you keep talking then "viewers" can just listen to it and I like the fact you put the chapter headings in otherwise I would not where to go. Usually I find however long a video I do I get an average watch time of about 5 mins but I guess if you have something worth saying and you don't need to watch/listen to the entire thing before it then this format can work. For me it was the weeks of "prep" to be able to talk a spreadsheet like that takes the time! Anyway good doing what you are doing and I will be sure to continue to dip in from time to time. For sure nobody else these days is putting the miles you do into so many shoes. BTW did you generally agree with the shoe like/dislike classifications I put for you?
@TimGrose I'm guessing he doesn't like the Peg :-) I love his long videos. Noone is as transparent as he is. We witness his experience in detail and his 100 mile reviews are the best.
Yowana has quickly risen to the top of my favorites to watch on TH-cam along with BITR and Kofuzi. So easy to just listen and don't have to necessarily watch. It's no wonder he's garnered so many subscribers so quickly.
I enjoyed this video Tim - plain to see how much work went into it! Just a fyi, Kofuzi used to have a steady partnership with Nike - being given shoes and invited to events - but since the news broke about how they treated their athletes, he distanced himself from them and prefers to buy their shoes himself rather than be sent them.
Thanks! And yes I think I started watching Kofuzi back when it was sort of the opposite problem in that he only largely talked about Nike shoes. I recall he has had a "tradition" of getting a Nike by You versions of the regular Pegs each year but recall last year saying he might give up on that largely seemingly as they weren't doing much for him. Whilst I admired his stance, I do feel we all miss an opportunity for one of the best known ShoeTubers to give us his opinion on the entire space of the most popular shoes.
Monumental work Tim! This is why I have always loved your work. Quantitative deep dives. Some interesting insights here as well. The point you made (on me) that I review only what I'm interested in and/or I know will work for me is important. It's a challenge to decide what to review otherwise. If I'm not interested in something, I'm not going to do it justice. So it's a fine line. More often than not, what one is interested in, will work for them (not always though). It was great to finally see this video though after some of our chats on it. Again, really well done!
Thanks and yeah I have been talking it about for some weeks now haven't I ! The "chat" bit turned out to be way way longer than I thought it would be but I spent way way longer on the first few minutes and indeed a lot longer than I normally do too. The "numbers" actually aligned way way better than I thought they would. I don't think there was really a true "outlier" in 22 channels. Perhaps the relativey few dislikes shows that most shoes are now actually quite good. Think this did not also tease out that some reviewers try harder than others to convey the general impression of a shoe rather than really just talking how it was for themselves which I feel I mostly do. That said I think it is all about getting to know a reviewer and then you tend to know whether your tastes align or not. I have undoubtedly made some "bad" purchases in the last year or two but of course you can never be quite sure about a shoe until have run in it. Hopefully once I get myself back to "normal" running we can do that "collab" been talking about for some while now.
@@TimGrose Fully agree on “getting to know” a reviewer. Some will resonate more than others in presentation style, their actual preferences or running ability. That’s why our space is so great at the moment. Lots of options. I’m also not surprised about the lower dislike ratio. Shoes are very good now, even the bad ones have redeeming qualities. Also reviewers are going to pick the shoes they are interested in or think will work for them. This is what makes the yearly Pegasus dunk videos so frustrating… as most do a video on it for internet points but never run in them throughout the year and are typically not interested in them. Yet we get the yearly video on it.
@@SagasuRunning almost at 50 miles now in my Peg 41s. Might go straight to a “long term” review :) Complete sell out of the Volt colourway we have on Nike UK and even StockX has some pairs on offer!
@@TimGrose I’m at 50mi in mine, actually been trying NOT to run in them as much as I want given I have so many other shoes I need to run in. Also Volt color way sold out there in Taiwan as well.
Great analysis, Tim! You clearly put in a lot of work! Well done, mate! There have been many shoes this year that haven’t worked well for me but, obviously, I’m a too nuanced with how I convey that. I generally choose to focus on the positive aspects of a shoe as being a single reviewer I’m aware my personal opinion isn’t the most reliable metric for most people who are looking to buy. For anyone who is interested, my most disliked shoe this year has been the Saucony Hurricane 24.
Thanks Matt. I've been over to your Hurricane 24 vid (which just missed the cutoff for my vid) to continue the discussion. Basically we concluded you try to review shoes more for everybody instead of focusing on how you personally find them which I have to admit is probably more my focus given I wide it hard to "guess" how it might be somebody who isn't me. That said I can say this is too wide for me which infers be great for those with wider feet etc etc. Equally if I find too soft/firm/short/long etc etc etc. Little surprise then that you might "Dislike" a stability shoe if you don't need one but it could well be a "Like" for those that do. I think I would have given that vid a "Neutral" to tie in with how I gauged the general vibe of all your other videos. I think it is fair to say these days that aren't really any shoes that are truly "Bad" for everybody especially if you leave aside ultra budget shoes which you could argue aren't "worthy" of our consideration as actual running shoes.
@@TimGrose I’ve reviewed a few budget shoes over the years and have been disappointed. IMO, the best way to get a budget shoe is to buy a good shoe the year after it releases; you get a good shoe for a good price! 💫
Well, you’re certainly the most innovative running TH-camr- absolutely no one else would have done this. Top work Tim, a very comprehensive and fair analysis. The 6:3:1 stat feels like it accords with my own experience of watching these reviews. I hope your fellow Shoetubers also appreciated this…
Thanks 👍 TBH if I had not been injured through June you probably would have seen yourself being interviewed in race vlogs instead of this but it is an idea I have had for a while but had seriously underestimated the time and thought into researching it and I tried to make more effort than normal with the edits on the opening few minutes.
@@TimGrose it was worth the effort. A unique piece of work, you deserve the views for this. Just make sure you tag it well. I’m injured myself, had to miss the VAC 5000 champs and having to miss the Tracksmith 5000 tonight. Minor hamstring strain, since the weekend before last. Been on the bike since…even tried acqua-running on Saturday! Hopefully the physio will give me the thumbs up today 🤞
Thanks! I put a lot of effort into the first few minutes then I thought it would be nigh on impossible to comment "usefully" on 22 channels in say less than 10 more minutes so thought would let the rest "run" with more of a "conversational tone" as you say or a "sort of" pseudo podcast. That said I did edit out as much as I could like changing the filter on my spreadsheet :)
@@TimGrose Yea I do have a few others I enjoy like @Freshbrewrunclub and @RuntallwithTim. They're not as much shoetubers as the others but they do offer good honest perspective on a few new releases here and there, but mainly I enjoy them taking you along on the run and talking training and coffee which I really enjoy myself lol
@@skobodabaws8946 On the days I work in the office I just hit play and let the video run while I'm working. Gets me through the first hour at least lol
Ha ha yes and hopefully you can see why now I was asking about your view on the Endorphin Pro 4. I wanted to try and include a few more like me that had tested around 10 shoes but had mostly bought the shoes themselves.
I know it's going to be my kind of video when there's a spreadsheet involved! Top work! On the subject of Yowana- when his videos first started increasing in length I thought it was a bit crazy. But having watched a few I like the format to be honest. Sometimes I skip to the vits that will interest me, other times they're good for having on im the background while I get the kids ready for school, but he's a likeable guy and I think he pulls it off.
@@arongoode1372 yeah TBH having seen my own rather long video here seemingly “working” then might be a model I can try again. I think the key is to have section markers and to keep talking so you can essentially just listen to it. Largely why I say what am seeing on the spreadsheet.
Another superb analysis Tim. Thank you for putting in the time to watch all these videos and collect all that data and share it all with us. Congrats on becoming a full time influencer and getting yourself some free shoes mate 🤣👍
Thanks! Typical of course I have sourced a pair of road ultra shoes when I had been training for track 800s and now can't even do that! That said you will pleased to hear I did manage a short "run" up a towpath on Monday and I was really surprised in dry, firm conditions that seemingly any road shoe would have done fine - here the Peg 41s.
Thanks! I was bit daunted about going through Yowana's stuff but fortunately he adds section headers so certainly a lot easier to dive into his conclusions which mostly told me what I wanted to know.
Phenomenal idea here! Having a running retail background WAY back in the OG running boom of the 70s -80s, I’m still fascinated by emerging tech - although, honestly, I don’t always agree w/ the direction. But, thanks much for your analyses and critiques. I do look at several Shoe Tubers on a daily basis, and one thing I always wish they would be consistent on: Please reiterate your weight and height (I know you and Edd do), and your foot strike. So essential for fitting any kind of shoe. When a 6’+, 160lb+ reviewer says the shoe is too soft - well, maybe for them it is, but for my 5’6” / 128lbs it may be just right. Also, if they would reiterate their personal preference for soft, firm, high stack, low stack, etc., that’s also essential; otherwise, their opinion comes across as absolute, and misdirects many newer runners. How many “bad buys” were made on the basis of a reviewer’s opinion w/out any of their physical disclaimers? Again, thx much for the effort in this one!
Thanks! I feel now I “know” most of the TH-camrs I featured here so say if somebody with a wider foot says a shoe is too narrow I perk up and vice versa. I think there is also an element of knowing to look for red flags. So say that Neo Vista with a soft feel and a bootie upper I think that’s unlikely to be one I would get on with.
I have often wondered why Kofuzi weren't reviewing any Nike shoes lately. Yes, I think he mentions the brand occasionally on his live streams, but those aren't really for mass consumption given that I don't have the time or patience to view live streams. And the absence of that brand from his reviews, being the biggest and most accessible, love it or hate it, is absolutely glaring. Right now, the reviewer I follow most is Sagasu Running, for being the most absolutely sensible. Plus, we share the love for Adidas' Supernova Rise. So, cheers to you and all the effort you poured into this video and then sharing it with all of us, Tim!
Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah it was well known with Kofuzi some years ago now why he stepped back from Nike. As you say I don't have the time or inclination to tune into too many long live streams either. That said did you get an impression that his issues with Nike still exist? As you say I kind of feel if you are a reviewer of running shoes to continue to ignore the biggest brand is odd even despite what happened few years ago. It's a bit different for me with some brands like ASICS as being UK 13/US 14 they ignore me! Supernova Rise is a daily trainer I did not get round to trying out. Seems quite divided opinion on that one. It was EddBud's worst rated shoe this year but one of Sagasu Running favourites and clearly you too. Wonder why that is?
@@TimGrose When every form of digital media were rushing to push out their take on the highly covetable Alphafly 3 when it was launched, Kofuzi was totally mum about it. As a regular viewer, I was and still am perplexed. Did it impact my appreciation of him as a so-called shoetuber? I think it did, sponsored and all that. As for the Supernova Rise, I guess it boils down to preference. It's not the sexiest trainer around, but I love the feel of it. The same way Kofuzi felt the Cloudmonster as boring but Ben is Running picked it his shoe of the year. Or Ben Parkes' apparent dislike for the NB 1080 v13 when almost everybody else were singing praises about it (by the way, agree 100% with Ben Parkes). Or Run-Are's dismissal of Peg 41 but runrepeat giving it one of the highest rating for the year, same goes for Foot Doctor Zach too. To me, the Rise is just that kind of daily trainer that let's me enjoy the run minus the pressures of holding a pace, finishing a distance, or whatever it says on Strava. Sorry for the long litany, Tim.
FASCINATING!!! What an awesome idea for a video! I intended to watch it in bits but I ended up watching the whole video with my morning coffee!😂 I never bought into "paying for shoes keeps reviewers more honest"... clearly anyone with more than a few years of running can feel what they do or don't like, PLUS making videos takes a lot of time and effort and I'm thrilled for anyone who starts getting freebies for their efforts!!! EDDBUD I'd say is the most passionately obsessed with shoes, he's really a professional collector!!😂 Aubrey is the one who most often likes the same shoes as me, probably because we're both slow runners and we both like relatively cushioned shoes (me since I mostly run long distances and very high volumes). Andy the FOD Runner I appreciate the most, particularly because he does genuine long runs and genuine long-term reviews, and not only longevity is one of the most important factors for me but many shoes change their feel considerably over distance and over time. I like Trail & Kale Running Co. too!
@@bev9708 maybe that is why EddBud still buys quite a few shoes as he is keen to get them full stop. Well done for getting to the end. Hope you spotted Daisy ?
Being a voracious consumer of running content and shoe reviews, I was going to write as close to 'war & peace' on this subject ( as close to the character limit in a reply will allow) . I deleted it. it was not needed. A great post Tim, well done , the numbers do not lie. My two pence for all ; Enjoy and take note of all reviews but where possible use your local running speciality (Brick and Mortar) store and try every shoe you are interested in and decide for yourself.
Thanks! There is a running "store" near me (Up & Running in Surbiton) and have bought a few pairs there if not for some years but being the "odd" UK 13/US 14 I am I found it was sadly often a "wasted" trip for me personally.
Very interesting video, thanks for taking the extensive time (im assuming this took forever) to put it together. A note on the Alex Filliti (typo probably) question/topic. He is actually a part of a group called Meta Endurance, they have a website with a team of reviewers that get the shoes. He then posts videos under his own seperate account of his reviews but I believe theyre linked more than one would assume if you just watched his channel.
Ah thanks and yes did it take "forever" which is largely why this is my first video for a while. I had always assumed Meta Endurance was largely just him but with some ad hoc "help" from friends like say in his SL2 video. I had noted they offer coaching services but these days I don't tend to "read" reviews - well with 530 videos to watch for this I was also "busy" LOL although, as I mentioned, I did check some written reviews for other channels that do them as it helped to decide on my like/neutral/dislike classification.
Thanks! Yeah always good to continue the discussion in the comments and I like to try and give reasonably considered replies. I do find with some channels if the comments rarely, if ever, get replies then I am far less likely to comment myself.
The perfect morning coffee video, Tim:) I skipped through to the ones that interest me the most for now. I' ve gone over to the Shoetubers myself now... But with currently only 20 subscribers, I doubt companies will want to send me shoes for free anytime soon. So I haven' t felt the need to waste time with a disclaimer that is longer than the video itself haha.
@@bev9708 Thanks! It will be mostly trail shoes for now as there isn' t a lot of content on them. As Tim has pointed out, the hype road shoes get enough coverage anyway;)
@@TimGrose Yeah, I was really happy about all the positive feedback I got! Tbh when it's dry most of the trails in the videos are runnable in road shoes. Towpaths however are a different story... Heard they will shred your shoes to bits and leave you with mud on your heels which is just the worst. Very grateful I don't have any of those around here.
Appreciate your hard work to complete this. I also tend to look at consumer reviews, at say Sportshoes, to see what ‘normal’ runners think although there is always some inherent bias for a variety of reasons. Brand loyalty etc. Thanks again.
Yeah it is good now that there are quite a few sources to check for reviews. I think a lot of runners (me included often) can get "defensive" about shoes they have bought and get on with reasonably well when others may disagree. Good of course there is a lot of choice now and TBH there aren't really many "bad" shoes these days and even then something bad for you maybe good for somebody else.
Tim, throughly enjoyed listening to your analysis and commentary while I prepped for my long run. Will dig into your channel now thanks to this vid, cheers!
Great work Tim! I enjoy your reviews in that you're clear that you have your own preferences. I can filter through that to work out if something might work for me. Interesting that you don't like the DOR reviews. They're pretty much my go to in that they explain the characteristics of each shoe without unneccessarily interjecting their opinions. I know what works for me so their descriptions are a big help to me. I sometimes watch a few of the others and they vary in usefulness as a practical tool for informing my decisions but there are at least 2 who are almost completely clueless. I'm also particularly averse to people trying to sell me coaching advice when their own training is so woeful.
TBF it could just be that to determine the specific info I wanted for my video, it was harder with them than most others. That said I do tend to prefer a review style when you can quickly determine if a reviewer likes a shoe or not.
Tim I love these sorts of videos and thank you for all the hard work and analysis. Look forward to many more from you and you offer a unique view compared to others. Hope you never get disheartened with TH-cam metrics because many of us really enjoy the content you produce. As a side note, videos like these are great for people who have TH-cam premium, or just have it on in the background, as it almost turns into a podcast. Probably a reason why I also enjoy Yowana’s videos (when I’m not feeling impatient).
Thanks much appreciated. I had wondered about TH-cam Premium but I also thought that having the most common setup (i.e. without it) would tell me more about how the majority of viewers consume TH-cam content. I probably now ought to turn my attention to a UK parkrun fastest/slowest courses update which quite a few viewers have said are keen to see.
What an amazing video - it must have been a lot of hard work. I'm already on the same page as you for most of the influencers, and I can read between the lines too. I have been running since the early 70's and did most of my full and half marathons in the early 80's dropping to 10k's in the 2000's, interspersed with Powerlifting at international level. With my recent return to running I've had the advantage of TH-cam this time, and most importantly you guys. I have managed to buy 5 pairs of shoes that I actually love based on reviews, including yours, and enjoyed doing it too. I look forward daily to watching you guys daily. You are appreciated Mick Toland age 64 Midlands England
Many thanks Mick. Yeah it did take about 3 weeks of "research" and best part of day to record it but pleased how it came out. I have had a bit of an injury since start of June so doing my own shoe reviews of late would not have been overly inciteful ! Funny to think the shoes we would have used in the 70s and 80s might "at best" be lifestyle shoes these days but I think my younger legs could get away with it better than now.
@@TimGrose I do hope you get well soon amigo - you will also be pleased to hear I followed your advise once more regarding a winter shoe - your video standing and running in the water swayed me - perfect method to test them really
@@micktoland733 thanks. Managed a whole km non stop today so some progress. Can’t be long before the Peg Trail 5 GORE-TEX comes along then will go and tip toe through another ford !
Amazing job with this, Tim! The work that went into it is probably well beyond what I could imagine. I'm familiar with most but not all of these channels and I thought your reviews were on the mark, one person's opinion of course but fair and well considered. There were probably more positive ratings of the channels than the 6/3/1 ratio, but then they were all sent to you free other than the time it took to watch them.
Good analogy! Might argue the only dislikes are not featured but I tried to include everybody could think of in this space that actually has done a fair number of reviews this year. I watch all of them regularly but as you may have inferred there are some I watch more than others. Think it also depends on the shoe being featured.
@@TimGrose Yes, some of the shoetubers also say that they aren't going to spend time running in and producing a video about shoes that they truly dislike when it's just a fun side project. For those who put affiliate links in their descriptions, of course, there's another reason not to post reviews where the message is not "buy these now."
I will agree about DOR in that I feel like they do not do a great job of engaging with their audience. I have commented on several occasions, and asked specific questions about shoes they reviewed and I have gotten NO response. It is very much like talking into a void. I will say though, when you dig into their written reviews, they are incredibly informative. I also love how each review covers "stability" because I am someone that needs a little more stability in my shoe, and there are so few "stability" shoes I like, and zero super shoes.
Yeah as I mentioned, I have largely stopped commenting on channels that don’t tend to engage. If I “like” a video I watch most or all of it and maybe hit the like button.
Thanks for the mention Tim! I didn't realise I disliked that many shoes 😂😂. I get about half my shoes supplied the rest I buy...and yep that Peg 41 👎🏽.
@@run-are thanks for dropping by. The fact I did not realise you have that mix of supplied/bought shoes probably also shows there is no bias in your reviews. Peg 41 seems to have divided opinions for sure. For some reason on some runs it (or a previous version) does me fine. Perhaps as I nearly always have worn that sort of 10mm drop shoe for my now 40 plus years as a runner. Also at the moment got a bit of an issue with my Achilles and physio wants me to use insole with more arch support for a while and it is a shoe that is easy for me to do so unlike say SL2.
Yeah I might have been a bit harsh there as I have watched/listened to a few and been good value. I think what I really meant is I felt I had to consume quite a lot of their content to find out what they really thought about a shoe and indeed in the end I found it easier to glean that from the conclusion of their written reviews rather than many of their videos.
DoR generally don’t like/dislike shoes. Instead, they tend to tell you which type of runners a shoe might be good or bad for. In that way, I really appreciate what they do.
They may not engage much with comments on YT. However, they use such comments, as well as from Instagram (where they might engage more), as the basis for their mail bag episodes.
Thanks and yeah probably if I had not been able to run anywhere near as much as normal (or sadly seemingly right now does not seem overly sensible anyway) this analysis would have taken even longer. I "just about" managed to get my own SL2 review out.
Great analysis! One thing that screws the stats (like, neutral, dislike) is the fact that most of these reviewers will prefer NOT to review a sent shoe rather than publish a negative one…I strongly believe these stats would be very different had they bought the shoes themselves.
Maybe but is there really any actual evidence that happens a lot ? I recall Aubrey did a video covering all the shoes he did not review because did not work for him but there weren’t that many. Also Emily from Run Like Heller I recall doing similar ones. That said I can think of two shoes I bought and never reviewed but one I just never got round to using as it was a niche trail shoe. But that’s like 2 in about 100 shoes I have bought in the last 5 years so would not materially effect the stats and anyway the one I did not wear I might have liked !
Just the video I wanted but never knew it. Was hoping you'd have a good whipcrack at a few channels but this was fair, the numbers don't tell everything but they don't lie. Lot of work 👍🏿
Yeah thanks. Whilst I think it is fair to say that I watch all these channels on a regular basis (albeit some only since recently) and largely enjoy their videos, I equally admit I like some channels more than others. I have got to assume that is largely the case with everybody. I guess I also like to watch as many different channels as I can to see what I think works best and vice versa and so provide inspiration for my own stuff.
Thanks! Yes the feedback and the views are very pleasing for sure. Makes me think should do a few more like this especially currently with a bit of an injury meaning talking about my own running (or lack of) not so good.
@@TomSzczepanski Indeed! I have at least been on Zwift last 2 days as figured I need to try and maintain some aerobic fitness and more effective doing that than short "hobbles" I have been doing few times a week for the last month.
Always find it a little strange the concentration of reviewing based largely on marathon use when the vast majority of runners will never go near a marathon...Some reviewers have a strange attitude towards shoes that are designed specifically for so called shorter distances...seems to me a lack of knowledge, research, detail it's a small thing but one that tends to irritate..Lack of detail is.something you can never be accused of...always appreciate the work you put in.
Yeah it can be odd I agree. Basically near all the carbon fibre plated racing shoes are marketed as marathon racing shoes but personally I find my favourite Vaporfly 1 the best shoe I have for everything from short sprints to the marathon itself. The general trend though is that this shoe is good for 5K, this one for 10K, this one for HM, this one for Marathon and indeed comments like I can't run a marathon in this one when all the shoes these days are miles more cushioned than the flats I used to wear only as recently as 2018. Out of interest, what shoes are you thinking of that are designed for short distances. There aren't many these days and even ones like the Takumi Sen I haven't really found are "better" than the so called marathon ones for me anyway.
I think a significant minority do a HM/marathon especially in running clubs where the percentage seems to be over half. I think people see them as events compared to Parkruns or 10ks and therefore worthy of shelling out a bit more on a shoe. It also seems to be the case that Runtubers often move within a year or two of doing a marathon block rather than continuing to work on their 5k times. Therefore they talk a lot about marathons mostly. Finally, I think also people hear about supershoes but it doesn't really matter that there's slightly better 5k/10k shoes so you can use a marathon shoe on all.
Thanks! I had the "real" idea when I saw Aubrey's video on the Triumph 22 but it was also a sort of follow on to the one I did about 6 months ago when was "counting" how many shoes each TH-camr reviewed and tried to compare with their mileage. So it was a good 3 weeks of research. I often have "ideas" like this but then a bit of an internal "sigh" when realise how much research would be needed to turn it from an opinion based video to a more clearly evidenced one. And it was the "opinion" that shoes supplied "for review" are more biased than ones you bought yourself was what I was trying to examine. It's interesting that despite what I found, many still believe there is a bias and TBH perhaps, in some cases, I tend to still see that but I hope I showed it was not always the case.
Thank you for your effort in trying to quantify all these shoe reviews and reviewers, obviously a lot of work, and much appreciated! My take on your take: 1) Agree, EddBudd is outstanding. Honest, unafraid to go against the hype, detailed, thorough, great sense of humor, excellent insights and observations, everything you need to know in 15 minutes. Plus, his brief musical interlude at the end of each vid is fantastic. During a segment "My worst purchases of 2023," he pointed out that the fabric lace loops on his low-mileage Cloudmonsters were already starting to fray, so would eventually break and render the $170.00 shoe useless, I never considered that before. 2) Yowanna is great because he puts MILES on his shoes, he"ll get 100 miles on a shoe in a matter of days. Agreed his posts are a little undisciplined/unstructured, but he gives a real world perspective on ride, quality, wear and tear, and long term durability. No fluff or bullshit, just running, As someone who puts mileage on his shoes 1,000+ before replacing, this is valuable to me, and few other reviewers so so. Last, I find his long form vids perfect when I'm on the treadmill or the Wahoo, 3) I find Believe In The Run hosts banter cutesy, irritating, and a waste of my time; further, their reviews are cookie cutter, and they've been mailing it in for a long time now. Watch one of their vids and you've seen them all. They might as well be retailers. Never watch them anymore. I subscribe to Kofuzi, but don't watch him much either, overly dramatic, takes himself too seriously and undoubtedly bought and paid for. 4) Your Nike fixation is fascinating. Here in the US, Nike is a tier 2 or 3 running brand; outside of their racing shoes, they don't have a single shoe that would make anyone"s top-5 in any running shoe segment. That said, I'm about to buy a pair of Invincible 3s, but only because they're on sale for $89.00. 5) Not sure why you're going on about what other reviewers think of Peg 41, or fights between shoe reviewers, sounds like "Real Housewives" territory. Sorry if all this sounds harsh, just being honest, and I did subscribe to your channel.
Thanks for your detailed thoughts. I tend to agree with most of it. Re Nike - personally it is the brand I have undoubtedly have had most shoes from over the years but especially road racing and spikes and if say the Peg Turbos get back "to form" might re-replace the Endorphin Speeds as the shoe I use most. I also feel Nike shoes tend to get the most interest in videos. Out of interest from what standpoint is your tier 2 or 3 comment coming? From running friends, what is stocked in stores or just a general impression? Now I think about it, some objective analysis of what shoes runners are actually using might be a good topic for a future video. Point 5 was largely the "inspiration" for this video as I felt there was a big under current of whether a shoe was truly liked or otherwise depending on whether it was paid for or otherwise. After that several TH-camrs rather went to town on their disclaimers...
Ah interesting. His style is clearly working for many and indeed the relative success of this rather long one myself has certainly given me food for thought. Big difference though my hour long video took a good 3 weeks to research whereas he can knock them out every day which I have to admire for sure. Do you actually "watch" the whole thing or is it more listening? I like to think my reviews of the reviewers could be listened to without really losing much - well unless you have a great love of spreadsheets :)
@@TimGrose that’s super true yeah it’s definitely nitche but I guess that was helps maintain a cold following. Kinda like altra… or at least old altra. Not sure why altra is doing now. I usually watch an episode a day before bed and yeah I watch the whole thing. But I tend to miss a big t sometimes on business days vs it’s much easier to watch a 4-8 min video for a quick over view during the day or during a lunch break or something.
Well if nothing else it was the "inspiration" for this video but I wanted to take an analytical approach to the wider subject to see if I could work out what the general situation is.
Yeah it seems like "forever" but I had started the work shortly after Aubrey's Triumph 22 video which was largely the "inspiration". On and off about 3 weeks of TH-cam viewing then best part of a day doing the video. I spent way way longer than normal on the first few minutes.
A real running shoe geek ;) regarding RTR, they have a website, which I prefer instead of their videos and they have a big team so thats a bonus. Alex Filitti also has a website and they are at least 2 reviewers from what I remember. For your year end video, it would be interesting to see what shoes are the most common in the "best of the year" videos. I dont use a spreadsheet but I count which shoes get the most "awards" and thats usually the shoes I buy ;) now I have a 60 pairs collection lol. Finally regarding DOR, they are among my favorites because you can see they take this "seriously", they are passionate about it and their website is great. Another reviewer I like quite a bit is RUN-ARE because he actually gives a score and ranks them. I don't like the green/red scoring system because that does not tell you much when 60% are green. Another one I liked was Seth James because I think he was the one who disliked most shoes so he helped me not buying too many shoes.
Yeah it was useful to be able to consult with the written reviews although have to admit I do only tend to read the conclusions even when not just looking for them. The traffic light system I thought was good for this analysis to keep it fairly concise but even then I debated quite a few which made the analysis take even longer.
Agree that the RTR website is a much better resource than the videos. I think the videos tend to be more fist Impressions and round-ups. Particularly on the more popular releases they'll have multiple testers, and the comparison section at the end where they compare to prior models and similar shoes is really useful. Only downside is the website is littered with pop-up ads these days.
yeah it did but have had an injury since start of June so I sort of diverted a bit of time from running (or trying to!) to watching even more TH-cam vids!
While some may say the low number of dislikes suggests bias, truth is that this is probably just because shoe companies are getting better. There just aren’t that many truly “bad” shoes that come out.
@@elliotendures very true and TBH even the shoe I disliked (AF3) I still managed to get through 1.5 sessions in (other half being Shoeoff vs VF3). Really I was disliking that it did not suit me. They clearly are “liked” by many others.
Great analysis, and thank you for the hard work and time that went in to this video. The reason i like Aubrey so much is he runs similar paces and is a similar body shape to me! I usually watch a range of reviews if I'm interested in a shoe and gauge it from the reviewers opinion on shoes that i already own. We for example do not match on our shoe likes and dislikes ilikes. Fortunately for me i still like to watch your reviews and listen to what you say, and use it to fill in a picture.
Thanks for watching! A common theme on quite a few comments here is trying to identify with reviewers that you resonate most with. That said you may recall Aubrey & I met up this time last year and I helped him pace his session. That was no jog for me I assure you. Also I asked him what shoes out of those we both have shall we both run in and he suggested Adios Pro 3. I shoe for me I would put just into the Like category and must be for him too - the one he used for his recent 5K PB for instance. I also recall he likes Vaporflys which is my overall favourite race shoe. Sometimes I also learn things from reviewers who may I not generally resonate with at all. E.g. if they say a shoe is too narrow for them, I perk up etc etc. Also I think it would be kind of daft if reviewer either liked or disliked all the same shoes. That would imply they are all pretty much the same and thankfully there is now hopefully a shoe (or more!) to suit pretty much everybody.
@@TimGrose Funnily enough I also have the Adiós Pro 3. It really grew on me. My fastest 5k is in Vaporflys.. I just don't love it. Being short and 82kg, I'm not the ideal build for running! Totally get what you say. If you were to say you like a shoe but it is too wide, my ears would certainly prick up! I started running at 49, 4 years ago and feel too old... So it's certainly inspirational watching you! Thanks again 👍
Wow, just wow Tim, do you get paid for that excel work? A really extremly interesting statistics video! BTW, why was my personal best shoe of 2024 so far reviewed by no one? For me, the New Balance Venym is the best "light trail" shoe of 2024. And about the trustworthiness of shoetubers: The ones buying all shoes themselves of course much higher than those who get them for free ... some of them clearly review according to "don't bite the hand that feeds ..."!
Ha ha that might be nice. Can’t say had even heard of that NB one. Did anybody review it ? As for last point I guess I sort of concluded here that may not be as obviously apparent as we all probably have tended to think. Can you point to some actual examples where you thought this was happening ?
@@TimGrose How about Ed? I see some distinct brand bias in his reviews. If and how a shoe performs for you is mainly personal, but the overall quality of the manufacturing should be judged fairly. So I have Puma shoes and also Nike shoes, I see no difference in the appearance and overall quality of the shoes. Ed always sees gluemarks and dodgy stitching on Nike shoes but never on Pumas ... as you know Nike shoes were bought, Puma shoes were given for free ... seems suspicious to me.
I have to say there’s general agreement across all of these reviewers on most shoes. My preferred reviewers are Ed Budd, The Run Testers, Believe in the Run, and Seth DeMoor. I think Fordy watches other reviewers, then does his review, and/or goes along with consensus takes as you point out with Nike Peg 41. It’s beat up on Nike year generally speaking. Certainly reasons for that but not to extent of everyone jumping on the band bandwagon…
Yeah I think you are right there and it's probably because the "hype" shoes from the big brands generally these days are good and it is actually now somewhat unusual for a shoe to be universally slated.
Very interesting! As someone who works in the industry, there's some reviewers that I find often being quite poor in their knowledge of shoes or having opinions on things where they are clearly clueless, which I find annoying.
My biggest pet hate is some UK reviewers genuinely seem to think UK sizes are "universal" across brands whereas really there are 2 camps (e.,g Nike/Saucony/Brooks vs adidas/New Balance/Hoka) Got to use US or cm sizes for at least theoretical uniformity. As such then they often appear to review what is quite possibly the wrong size for them and may also state incorrectly that a shoe is not "TTS" or worse imply a shoe does not function correctly as a result. Otherwise if pushed I imagine there are all sorts of technical things about shoes I don't really know anything about. Have you got a particular example (and the issue not necessarily the person) ?
@@TimGrose Well, as I said many use the wrong terminology or say wrong things about shoes. But that can happen. Some, and I think you can guess who, always complains about the quality of certain (Nike) brands. And as someone who handles claims, I can say with confidence Nike trainers hold very good quality compared to many other brands.
Another example is pricing. There's often some complaints about pricing, for example the EVO (I met and spoke to the designers and development team). Adidas does not make money off that shoe (currently). The shoe is crazy expensive but people underestimate the cost of R&D.
@@QronoZ713 yeah that shoe was clearly designed to help their best athletes do their best performances. The fact the AF3 seems to sell out in minutes every time there is a drop suggests money is little barrier to those who want to try these things. Besides a lot lot cheaper than the days when I was into bike time trials!
@@QronoZ713 yeah never get the "quality" thing. As long as my shoes don't fall apart (can only think of one in 40 years where the tongue came out after a couple of runs which was actually a Saucony) then once have done a few runs in a shoe they all look "used" and TBH I prefer them like than some thing you put on your shelf to "admire".
Aubrey is the worst running reviewer, he avgs 2 runs a weeks and has less than 450k on strava for the year. He runs for views, cash and shoes. Not cause he loves running
I thought my fairest reply here would be to invite Aubrey to do so. He said “Truthfully speaking… I have experienced injuries and only ramping up mileage now with a lot more running now that I’m doing the marathon training plan so the mileage will ramp up. Aside from that, my goal is to run my way and not necessarily satisfy anyone’s expectations”
@TimGrose and if he was just sharing his journey as a runner I would fully accept that, celebrate it even. Encouraging people to run is something I love to do, but I believe when doing reviews it should come from a place of experience and knowledge. His videos seems more about editing and lighting than rigorous testing of the product. I have complimented him on his videos for the high production of them, they do look great, but a good looking video doesn't mean I should listen to his opinion. He was putting out reviews for shoes when I know from things he has said he was injured with a back issue. How can you test a product when injured? It doesn't make sense. People rely on reviewers they can trust to help them make good decisions on how they spend their resources. Running shoes are massively expensive, so when people watch a review it needs to be based on honesty and clarity. I love ben is running videos but won't rely on his reviews for reasons you listed in this video. But I can still enjoy his content. Phily bowden makes amazing running content, but she never reviews a shoe. Aubrey seems to have watched some videos about how to become a youtuber which will all say find your neiche and stick to it. He found running as his neiche but doesn't love the sport, nor is he particularly knowledgeable about it.
@@hippygeeza gave up on his channel after he essentially starts a training block / series and never finishes anything. Very obvious he is out for YT fame and free shoes ! He's probably a nice guy, and it's nothing against him, but I just worry the loads of new runners who watch YT and take certain channels as gospel.
Definitely confused with Aubrey’s approach to Jason Jogs’ review. Had no clue who he was talking about at the time and honestly was disappointed in him for doing that being someone who subscribed to him when he had a small following. It was a bit out of line.
I watched this video in increments throughout my day at work (benefits of WFH). Can't get enough of this analysis stuff, and enjoy the commentary too. Also, say hello to Daisy for me. Cats are such no-bullshit animals, which makes them completely the opposite of many Shoe-Tubers (despite what your bought Vs Given analysis might show!).
Well done for making it to see Daisy! You could also see I started filming in bright sunshine and finished when it was more or less dark. We got Daisy as a kitten almost to the day 17 years ago now so she is certainly an old cat now. She has liver issues so the vet suggested to put her on a "special" diet but even that stuff doesn't always say done. We are now also trying small bits of chicken. Glad you liked the vid. Took best part of a month from "concept" to research and filming. Think will move on to an update on the parkrun fastest/slowest courses next. Got a bit of an injury so my running has been limited for the last month but I am also now at 50 miles in the Peg 41 :)
I find shoetube reviews really useful. Often they all have bias towards a type of shoe or the fit/feeling of the shoe. Even when they dislike a shoe it’s obvious to me in some instances that it would be perfect for me! In that sense I glean the information I want from their reviews, rather than follow their recommendations 😅
Know what you mean. Classic example for me is if somebody says a shoe is a bit narrow for them I perk up (as I have narrow feet) and often vice versa. Of recent shoes Puma Deviate Nitro 3 is a good example where some reviewers cited it being narrow but fits me better than most shoes for sure. That said I still got the Rebel v4 which is possibly the widest shoe of my recent purchases. Perhaps I had not realised quite how wide it was for me until I got it.
As a pretty avid watcher of R4A, generally Loyd buys all the shoes himself and he usually only highlights if a shoe was sent to him rather than giving the same disclaimer repeatedly. There’s only been a handful of times I can recall a shoe was sent to him and he indicates when that is the case.
Ah that's interesting. If anything I had rather assumed the opposite to what you are saying. Either way his like/neutral/dislike ratios seem to match the general trend which was the key conclusion to the analysis. Must say that does surprise me because, as I commented in another reply, I think I have had one shoe ever that paid for itself and even channels with approximately an order of magnitude more subs than me like his one might struggle to even cover the cost of the shoes alone.
@@TimGrose he does advertise his Patreon support link which I don’t think I see other channels do as much, so maybe he gets some added support by that means.
Great work Tim, I do wonder have you reviewed the paris series yet? I know Everybody else has already! Lol. But I think the more runners the better as everyone has diffrent likes and dislikes! I know for myself I've found some shoes like the asics metaracer 2 I loved for faster training runs but most reviews say it's to firm for them. I gues I tend to like a firmer shoe as I used to run marathons in the old orginal Adidas Adios 1 and 2 back from the 2010-2013 era.
Sadly they don’t do my size UK 13 as 12 biggest they do. Otherwise seems to be more of a divide now between who prefers the Sky or Edge and the ones who like the Sky don’t obviously fit the ASICS narrative for stride and cadence runners. I have had nearly all the all Adios versions. I got the first pairs before the first Boost version and raced all my road races in them. That first Boost one would now be thought of the Adios 1 and I did a marathon in them in 2016. Eventually had to stop using them when the then largest UK 12.5 got a bit small for me but at least now they generally do the 13.5. Always have a bit of an internal chuckle when somebody says one of the latest high stack carbon racers can’t do the marathon when it wasn’t long ago we thought Adios flats had some “cushion” and certainly felt fast and they were a lot compared to what must have used in the 80s when I started. I used a lot of Nike Streak flats over the years.
@@TimGrose it’s funny indeed, as I used to race all my Marathons in flats and didn’t have issues plus have a PB in the pre boost adios, but I’m 56 so my fastest times are behind me. Yeah, that’s an issue on size. Bought the edge Paris very impressed with it so far. One reason I also loved the edge + was it felt more l firm and got a half marathon course PB in them. I love Adidas but have become more into ASICS in the last few years. Used to use only adidas actually.
@@ericwj7 Ah I am just a year older at 57. I did try the Adios 1 again for a "shoeoff" couple of years ago and, for sure, it wasn't as good as it seemed at the time but then again even my 40 something self was just better than now. Still it is what it is and good to have "better" shoes now although with an injury at the moment no magic wand. I tend to be mostly either Nike, Saucony or adidas but often for the size restrictions I mentioned.
@@TimGrose Funny, i found the same experience when I tried out a newish 220m pair of the Adios. I was like these are really firm!? lol. But I ran in them for years! My last try was the adios 6 and they were Ok but too firm in the forefoot for me. I need to try the new Bostons as well. Love Saucony as well, had a great experience in the older Pro & speed 2s for a marathon and just training.
@@ericwj7 Boston used to be my daily trainer versions 2 to 5 then also got a bit small for me. The more recent ones are a lot “more shoe” and I only got limited use out of them compared to say Endorphin Speeds of late I have actually been enjoying the Peg 41 - decent cushioning but not silly soft as some I find are now.
Kofuzi stopped working with Nike after the Alberto Salazar, etc. scandals and how Nike handled it. He stopped running in them completely for awhile. Now he does run in them here and there, but he doesn't make them a priority And they don't send him shoes so he often gets them much later than other reviewers and so he doesn't often publish a review video. That said he does talk about the shoes on his live streams so you get a bit of a review there but not an official review.
Yeah thanks. I said in another reply that I was aware of that and admired his stance at the time but I get the impression from his videos and the buying guides etc etc that Nike shoes just don't enter into the conversation - at least there. That said I can see why he isn't that bothered about joining the scramble for the likes of the drip feed of the Alphafly 3.
I can't trust Kofuzi... I cant help but feel that he is a sell-out (asics)! But even if he had a grudge against Nike's management or policies or attitude or whatvr happnd.. he should still review Nike shoes honestly for what they really are!! It is useless if the reviews are not unbiased!
@@tgibridays I don't watch all of them... but he seems dodgy to me for sure! Nick from Run testers loves Asics Metaspeed sky Paris and can't stop raving about it.. but I don't doubt him in the least! So, I am not saying every Asics or Nike fan boy shoetuber is $$..
@@bluesque9687 if you watch his superblast 2 video, kofuzi literally suggests nike invincible 3 as an alternative to it because of its lower price. He'd still suggest nike shoes if he actually likes them LOL
Just rewatched from about 13:00 into th-cam.com/video/1F4C0_w-IJo/w-d-xo.html To me there is a theme that he preferred the previous version and a lack of "wow factor". One of my rules of thumb is that if they said they preferred the previous version it largely suggests they were going to say see if can that older one at discount so hence a neutral view of a shoe because they aren't really convincing me the new one is one I should buy.
Tim - ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT REVIEW . . . overdue, brilliant and quite surprising. The only piece of data that you could never have trawled and presented was the amount of sh!t shoes Shoe-tubers are sent, hate and don't review/present . . . as I suspect there are a fair few of these, thus channels keep a tight control on "mostly presenting only positive reviews due to, overwhelmingly, being provided free shoes". I see Shoe-tubers a little like wine reviewers of the past . . . they appear transparent, have their rating systems, earnestly try to appear to have validity. However, what your presentation has SCREAMED is that in the main, all Shoe-tubers have predominantly 100% provided stock. Old-mate Eddbud being a rare presenter that both buys many of his shoes and tends to be "rather honest"; although his scoring system combines a dependent variable in "value" with the three independent variables of upper, midsole and outsole. I trust Eddbud and yourself, first and foremost due to true independence and transparency. I like FOD, as he runs his shoes to 300+ miles . . . and this reflects "99% of us" that buy to get full life-cycle, not get a feel-good shoe for 50miles then dies or outsole capitulates. Of the Run testers, I find Nick the most valuable, as he often relates shoes, paces and run-styles/technique The fact that Kofuzi doesn't review Nike is VERY STRANGE and he always whines about this . . . "Mike?!!?!? Buy your own Nike pairs, claim them on tax, be transparent . . . simple!!!" (apologies wasn't aware of his stance on Nike athlete treatment) BitR Meghan is far more insightful than Robbe or Thomas . . . likely because she does huge volume and has wide feet, these things are valuable to viewers. . . . one of the true challenges for Shoe-tubers is both differentiating but providing decent insight/content . . . ie great to watch most (Sagasu, MattB, RoadTrailRun, Emily Heller, Docs of Running, Seth, AlexF, Run-ARE, BenParkes, Ginger, . . .), but it's just become a wish-wash of "same-ness" and positivity. Shoe-tubers all know, you post a Nike Pegasus review . . . you're going to get huge views . . . so how do you stay transparent when you're monetising different content that you ABSOLUTELY KNOW will make you money, whereas other shoes won't. I expect Adios 9 and Topo Specter 2 to be shoes that would be 9.5/10 for most club-runners . . . but it'll be interesting to see how much content and positive content they receive, if any.
Thanks for your detailed thoughts. Was only watching EddBud's latest Superblast 2 video and thought he is the first one to actually point out some potential real issues and he got sent that one "for review". I also think Edd shows that sometimes you "need" to buy some shoes to give us viewers an objective view of the entire market although perhaps sometimes I am a little biased with Nike as I probably use their shoes more than any other brand. I've actually been in the Peg 41 pretty much every time of late even when not running much - just a good shoe for walking as well and I can experiment swopping out the stock insole with one with more arch support my physio wants me to use - at least for a while. I guess there are quite a lot of "good" shoes these days but it is always interesting to see what TH-camrs actually want to use on race day. Maybe there is another angle for me :) Adios 9 will be interesting. Before "super" shoes I did all my races and faster work in what was effectively the Adios 1 so always have a fondness for that line even if the recent ones have kind of been something and nothing in a way. Never tried a Topo. With rather narrow feet those type of shoes always seemed a complete waste on me.
Thanks! Yeah this spreadsheet took me a while to get to a format that "worked". Cell notes are often so use to avoid extra columns largely full of whitespace.
This is very useful. Thank you. Any chance to get the excel file posted to google drive? It would be great for the random viewer to check out these numbers. Again, very much appreciated!
I was also thinking of compiling the finishing times of these reviewers to help viewers to "relate". A finishing time vs. shoe size chart would be something doable given that they usually publicly report on their shoe size
Great channel Love a lot of the channels you’ve named..I’m often sceptical about people who get free shoes..how can their review be unbiased? If they hate the shoe will these top companies continue to send them free pairs?
I guess I was trying to show that even though we tend to think that about free shoes there was still a similar number of “dislikes” albeit not many anyway although that is reflective of there being not many “bad” shoes these days.
@@martinmcgrath1985 sure agreed. That said can’t think of any examples like that? Also it is pretty rare now for a shoe to be truly terrible. I might have had a few been pretty bad for me personally but others have enjoyed them. So say Ultrafly springs to mind.
Ah good to know thanks. Have you heard if he has deliberately stepped back from TH-cam as a result? Anyway, as you will have seen, his Buy/Try/Why classification is a very good summary takeaway from a shoe review.
I suspect the influence of shoe reviewers is overated, outwith the bubble. To give an example I heard a TH-cam'r complaining about the idea of being encouraged to get new shoes every few hundred miles because 'his lasted for ages'. ... the guy probably weighed 140 lbs and the vast majority of joggers/gym goers will have 60 lbs on him. Nike seem to have a good strategy - when you see the pros running and consistently training in their shoes then it's a strong selling point to demonstrate that they work.
Yeah be interesting to know exactly how much "influence" influencers actually have. It is a very "modern" way of advertising by getting "runners" who often have limited running ability themselves showcasing shoes seemingly designed for elite athletes first and foremost. After all the "traditional" way has always been getting the "best" to use a product in the hope it influences us to be like them by using the same kit. I guess these days I am probably, even without really acknowledging it, influenced by "anybody" using a product so maybe it "sort of" works.
@TimGrose it's a good question and one I'd need to look into. Have you noticed though that Brooks seem to be in almost every parkrun email? I'm not sure if they sponsor them or not - but sounds a really good idea to get your product out to the general population. Edit: I've never owned brooks but I've had 2 invites to test their shoes on a 5K run which due to other commitments I've never went - no doubt I'd buy the pair at the end.
Yeah hope we can make that work. Ball is sort of in my court right now as I have had an injury through June which is persisting so being able to talk about say how the SL2 is for long runs and/or tempo runs is a bit tricky for me right now. I can however tell you which shoes are good for hobbling :)
Just one! Jason Jogs with the Cloudrunner 2. Interesting point - I have never tried an On shoe as never really been overly convinced. That said they have some world class track athletes that are off to the Olympics so clearly their shoes must "work".
@@TimGrose that is interesting, thank you! I think this is a point that's hard to pin down: favourable shoe reviews for iterations that people wouldn't buy otherwise. On seem really overpriced and the 'better' reviewed shoes are those which don't really have clouds in the midsole.
@@garethevans2499 Might be a topic for a follow on but Nike & adidas easily were the two brands with the most amount of bought shoes but ASICS, Saucony, Brooks & Hoka had more overall reviews than both with On only just one less overall review than Nike. This makes sense to me as almost always my Nike & adidas reviews do a lot better than any other brands. Logical also as AFAIK they are the two biggest brands. So you could argue all the other brands need to work harder to send shoes out "for review" to get noticed.
We worked out that we got her as a kitten on 15th July 2007 so she is as good as 17 even in "gotcha" years. I put up a picture on my Strava that day as she came from Wiltshire with her sister Maisy who sadly was nowhere near as robust. Was even back in the car when Sue went "on ahead" in my car as I ran from "nowhere" to her "somewhere". Anyway Daisy is currently back in her default position on mat beside my computer in the cabin. From there she looks out for Rex & Mittens (visitors from behind) and any sign of movement from me which could trigger the opportunity for food. She does have liver issues and even now is struggling with "special" cat food but seems to have managed some small bits of chicken so will see if that works.
Reviewers are not good at testing durability. It can also be hard to test, I understand. But it would be great to focus on it. If you spend money on a shoe you want to know if it's good for 500, 1000 or 1500 km. It does make a difference!
I must say some of the comments on durability can sometimes appear rather pointless like I have run 20 miles in a shoe and great to see the outsole is still intact. Well it would be a worry if it was not! But otherwise short of some specialist channels that acquire shoes and then dissect them and subject to stress test not sure how you could really test that short of reporting back after many miles in a shoe. Personally I find it somewhat annoying to buy a shoe not to run in but to cut up for a video. Usually tells me nothing of interest to me. I personally don't really worry much about durability. I typically find me for me I am losing something in the midsole once start to approach 250 miles and I very rarely want to take anything past about 300 miles although of course many use a shoe way way longer.
One thing I wonder, are sure so many of the shoetubers do it "full time? Kofuzi has a few videos where he explains how much he makes .. and its not that much
He also replied to me when I curiously asked him why he doesn’t look at the revenue, which he stated in that video. He came back to me with ‘it’s not all about the numbers for some of us’ which confused me even more. I was simply asking as it seemed he was in some way being reimbursed for his content and he came back with that really awkward answer. I couldn’t tell if it was a flex or he has an outside job, so it’s not relevant
For context, I "earn" about £100 per month from TH-cam. My most viewed video ever (Peg Trail 4 GORE-TEX) with over 100K views "only" basically covered the cost of the shoe twice over and it wasn't that expensive relatively. I don't think any other video I have done has got close to even covering the cost of the shoe. So yeah if I extrapolate that to channels with say even an order of magnitude more views per video (which TBH isn't many) then it is not looking like amazing money from TH-cam alone. Best I don't give up my actual job then! I think the "influencers" who do the best financially have multiple revenue streams. Like say if a brand flies you out to a product launch then even if they cover the entire cost of the trip, I doubt if they are actually paying for your time as well unless you are "really" big. However if say you are hosting shakeouts in the name of a brand and/or doing PAs for them then I hope they get paid for such. Also, as annoying as it might seem sometimes, easy to see why some running influencers have to try and "push" certain products that may or may not be really running related in their socials.
@@that_which_is_notKofuzi had a job, his own company, which all but disappeared during Covid. He now does this full-time along with taking care of his kids. He’s married and his wife has a full-time job.
Good question. It was largely based on the "average" overall view of a shoe. DoR for instance, in their written reviews, give A, B, C ratings with +/- qualifiers. So if all the ratings were A something, B something, C something it was "easy" and correspond to Like, Neutral, Dislike. When it was more borderline like one gave A- and another B+ I called that a Like. Conversely I gave a B-/C+ a dislike. With likes of Run Testers similar principles when I had to be more objective in what they said. TBH I can't think of any shoes where it was clear Like for one of the team but a clear Dislike for another. Some of the classifications here, in general, were a lot easier than others. If somebody really like a shoe I would have probably only needed to have watched a few seconds of the vid or just looked at the vibe of the thumbnail. With others I literally may have watched the whole video and still wasn't sure - perhaps because the reviewer was not either. Fortunately, I can't see too many comments were I "obviously" got the classification of a shoe "wrong".
Love this video saying it as it is im not going listen to people who run 8.30 mile pace in alphaflys they need real testing like all race shoes like u do
Thanks although right now with a bit of a foot injury I would be struggling with even 8:30s. Been doing a fair bit of run/walk in my Pegasus 41 however so hope to do a video on how I am finding it once feel might be useful.
One question that I found interesting. Did you ask them how many shoes that were sent to them that they did not review? I have heard that some might not give a bad review for shoes that were sent for free.
Short of mentioning in passing what I was researching to a couple of fellow TH-camrs and one question to MidLife Runner about one shoe, I didn't really ask anybody to sort of do my research for me as it were partly because I wanted to try and form my own opinion to try and eliminate any obvious bias and partly as there are only a few of them I feel I know well enough to even directly message anyway. Also I felt if I included enough shoe review videos (530) and enough TH-camrs (22) then any sort of "fixing" might just get lost in the noise which I like to think it did.
@@davidg9120 B_I_R is on his podcast basically saying he doesn't review shoes negatively. He'd rather not review it. Still enjoy watching him just not his shoe reviews.
Who polices the Police? Who nurses the nurses? Who teachers the teachers? I don't know! But who reviews the (Shoetubers) reviewers - THAT'D BE TIM GROSE!!! Kudos.
Thanks! Out of interest though what do you consider as "independent" as I note at least one of those channels provides links to buy stuff that gets featured on the channel.
@@TimGrose Yowana is buying a majority of the shoes he's testing. He started receiving recently sample shoes for reviewing, but nevertheless, he's personally very much invested and doesn't leave a day without doing a run/making a video. SagasuRunning (Chris) reviews and buys shoes he's personally interested into, and if the shoe isn't working for him, it's gone. As for you, you're an accomplished runner, at 57 and such a great form, it's a rarity. Greetings, Tim!
@@smagic614 thanks although curently being sidelined with an Achilles/foot injury am startng to feel my 57 years but hope to get back to it before long. I was never quite clear now with Yowana how many shoes he is still buying. I don't think it really matters with him given the huge mileage he is able to cope with. As for Chris think it is pretty much like me. I buy shoes I think I "might" like but inevitably don't always - just like him. After all makes no sense to continue using a shoe you don't like, or worse, might give you injury issues.
When it comes to bias, I think you're just as likely to be bias towards a shoe that's been given to you as you are being bias towards a shoe you've paid for. The latter is probably more sicceptable to sunk cost fallacious reasonong where saying its a bad shoe has you admitting you made a mistake, where the former is more likely to be a subconscious adherance to appreciation, thinking one is more powerful than the other is just falling foul to a fairness fallacy.
Personally I can think of the Alphafly 3, Ultrafly, Prime X2 Strung just in the last year or so where I spent a small fortune, said in videos I did not like them and barely ran in them again but just could not justify to my integrity trying to return "used" shoes. See what you mean though - I did "try" to get on with the likes of the Ghost 15, Zoom Fly 5 and did a bit more in them only to fall to the same conclusion. Maybe also I extensively wore the Peg 39, Peg 40, Peg Turbo Next Nature and now starting to with the Peg 41 to sort of prove a point that they are "decent" running shoes but I have more than enough shoes to not need to keep wearing ones I really hate! Can you think of shoes then you bought and used when really you would rather not ?
I’ve noticed those who pay with their own money are way more critical, and I’ve also noticed that every reviewer has their favorite company that they can’t help but glaze. Then there are haters like yowanna
Guess there is also a style. I noted say Kofuzi and Run Testers dislike as many shoes as say Fordy but perhaps more “obvious” with the latter. In a way when I hated shoes I bought myself can of think the “joke” is also on me a bit for not doing any research. Still can never be sure until have tried something yourself I feel.
I've also mentioned to Fordy about his horrendous disclosure 😂 No need for it IMO, just a simple disclosure is appropriate and if viewers can't work it out then there is no helping them 😂
Must say I don’t really understand it as all I want to know is where you got it from and how much you have run in it. They are the variables shoe to shoe.
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Tim… no one does this kind of analytics like you. You’re a gem in this community. I love every bit of this video. Keep doing what you do and keep holding us all to account!
@@AubreyRunning thanks will do. Thought you might recognise “yourselves” at the start :) I did a bit of “crafty” editing to remove the paid for reviews bit. TBH I can’t think of anybody that gets paid to “review” running shoes on TH-cam. Can you ?
@@TimGrose well my understanding is that some rare youtubers had their travel and expenses paid to run some marathons or assist some events so the line can be blurry sometimes :p
@@jean-phil true but I guess the brands need to do all they can to make their products attractive. Personally this stuff is a bit lost on me in terms of being influenced but if you get a free trip be hard to turn down.
@@jean-phil true but I guess the brands need to do all they can to make their products attractive. Personally this stuff is a bit lost on me in terms of being influenced but if you get a free trip be hard to turn down.
@@jean-phil true but I guess the brands need to do all they can to make their products attractive. Personally this stuff is a bit lost on me in terms of being influenced but if you get a free trip be hard to turn down.
Great Tim! Love these videos! I was a bit disappointed I did a one run review on the peg but in all honesty, I wanted my money back and didn’t want to run too much more in them! So I sent them back 🤝 big respect for these videos, must of taken you ages to put these spreadsheets together!!
Thanks for dropping by. In hindsight I might be a little "defensive" about the Pegs as for some reason they just often land up on my feet for runs where I am not bothered about "performance". I just get a bit annoyed when a certain other reviewer just seems to mention them in every other video as a shoe seemingly to be avoided at all costs. This then usually triggers a volley of echo chamber comments. As for the returns policy in hindsight there have been "expensive" shoes like the Ultrafly, Prime X2 Strung and perhaps even Alphafly 3 (to further illustrate we do often like/dislike different shoes) where I could have had almost a grand more in my bank account if had not done more than one test run in each.
Love this video length 😍
@@supwell haha 🤣 yowana approved 1hr video!!!
ha ha thanks for dropping by. Funny because I spent many hours doing the first few minutes then just chatted away for bit over an hour for the chat on each TH-camr and only just largely edited out the bits when I changed views in Excel. which actually only saved about 10 mins. In hindsight realised if you keep talking then "viewers" can just listen to it and I like the fact you put the chapter headings in otherwise I would not where to go. Usually I find however long a video I do I get an average watch time of about 5 mins but I guess if you have something worth saying and you don't need to watch/listen to the entire thing before it then this format can work. For me it was the weeks of "prep" to be able to talk a spreadsheet like that takes the time! Anyway good doing what you are doing and I will be sure to continue to dip in from time to time. For sure nobody else these days is putting the miles you do into so many shoes. BTW did you generally agree with the shoe like/dislike classifications I put for you?
@TimGrose I'm guessing he doesn't like the Peg :-)
I love his long videos. Noone is as transparent as he is. We witness his experience in detail and his 100 mile reviews are the best.
Yowana has quickly risen to the top of my favorites to watch on TH-cam along with BITR and Kofuzi. So easy to just listen and don't have to necessarily watch. It's no wonder he's garnered so many subscribers so quickly.
Sam Sulek is proud of you!
I enjoyed this video Tim - plain to see how much work went into it!
Just a fyi, Kofuzi used to have a steady partnership with Nike - being given shoes and invited to events - but since the news broke about how they treated their athletes, he distanced himself from them and prefers to buy their shoes himself rather than be sent them.
Thanks! And yes I think I started watching Kofuzi back when it was sort of the opposite problem in that he only largely talked about Nike shoes. I recall he has had a "tradition" of getting a Nike by You versions of the regular Pegs each year but recall last year saying he might give up on that largely seemingly as they weren't doing much for him. Whilst I admired his stance, I do feel we all miss an opportunity for one of the best known ShoeTubers to give us his opinion on the entire space of the most popular shoes.
Monumental work Tim! This is why I have always loved your work. Quantitative deep dives. Some interesting insights here as well. The point you made (on me) that I review only what I'm interested in and/or I know will work for me is important. It's a challenge to decide what to review otherwise. If I'm not interested in something, I'm not going to do it justice. So it's a fine line. More often than not, what one is interested in, will work for them (not always though). It was great to finally see this video though after some of our chats on it. Again, really well done!
Thanks and yeah I have been talking it about for some weeks now haven't I ! The "chat" bit turned out to be way way longer than I thought it would be but I spent way way longer on the first few minutes and indeed a lot longer than I normally do too. The "numbers" actually aligned way way better than I thought they would. I don't think there was really a true "outlier" in 22 channels. Perhaps the relativey few dislikes shows that most shoes are now actually quite good. Think this did not also tease out that some reviewers try harder than others to convey the general impression of a shoe rather than really just talking how it was for themselves which I feel I mostly do. That said I think it is all about getting to know a reviewer and then you tend to know whether your tastes align or not. I have undoubtedly made some "bad" purchases in the last year or two but of course you can never be quite sure about a shoe until have run in it. Hopefully once I get myself back to "normal" running we can do that "collab" been talking about for some while now.
@@TimGrose Fully agree on “getting to know” a reviewer. Some will resonate more than others in presentation style, their actual preferences or running ability. That’s why our space is so great at the moment. Lots of options.
I’m also not surprised about the lower dislike ratio. Shoes are very good now, even the bad ones have redeeming qualities. Also reviewers are going to pick the shoes they are interested in or think will work for them. This is what makes the yearly Pegasus dunk videos so frustrating… as most do a video on it for internet points but never run in them throughout the year and are typically not interested in them. Yet we get the yearly video on it.
@@SagasuRunning almost at 50 miles now in my Peg 41s. Might go straight to a “long term” review :) Complete sell out of the Volt colourway we have on Nike UK and even StockX has some pairs on offer!
@@TimGrose I’m at 50mi in mine, actually been trying NOT to run in them as much as I want given I have so many other shoes I need to run in. Also Volt color way sold out there in Taiwan as well.
Great analysis, Tim! You clearly put in a lot of work! Well done, mate!
There have been many shoes this year that haven’t worked well for me but, obviously, I’m a too nuanced with how I convey that.
I generally choose to focus on the positive aspects of a shoe as being a single reviewer I’m aware my personal opinion isn’t the most reliable metric for most people who are looking to buy.
For anyone who is interested, my most disliked shoe this year has been the Saucony Hurricane 24.
Thanks Matt. I've been over to your Hurricane 24 vid (which just missed the cutoff for my vid) to continue the discussion. Basically we concluded you try to review shoes more for everybody instead of focusing on how you personally find them which I have to admit is probably more my focus given I wide it hard to "guess" how it might be somebody who isn't me. That said I can say this is too wide for me which infers be great for those with wider feet etc etc. Equally if I find too soft/firm/short/long etc etc etc. Little surprise then that you might "Dislike" a stability shoe if you don't need one but it could well be a "Like" for those that do. I think I would have given that vid a "Neutral" to tie in with how I gauged the general vibe of all your other videos. I think it is fair to say these days that aren't really any shoes that are truly "Bad" for everybody especially if you leave aside ultra budget shoes which you could argue aren't "worthy" of our consideration as actual running shoes.
@@TimGrose I’ve reviewed a few budget shoes over the years and have been disappointed. IMO, the best way to get a budget shoe is to buy a good shoe the year after it releases; you get a good shoe for a good price! 💫
Well, you’re certainly the most innovative running TH-camr- absolutely no one else would have done this. Top work Tim, a very comprehensive and fair analysis.
The 6:3:1 stat feels like it accords with my own experience of watching these reviews. I hope your fellow Shoetubers also appreciated this…
Thanks 👍 TBH if I had not been injured through June you probably would have seen yourself being interviewed in race vlogs instead of this but it is an idea I have had for a while but had seriously underestimated the time and thought into researching it and I tried to make more effort than normal with the edits on the opening few minutes.
@@TimGrose it was worth the effort. A unique piece of work, you deserve the views for this. Just make sure you tag it well.
I’m injured myself, had to miss the VAC 5000 champs and having to miss the Tracksmith 5000 tonight. Minor hamstring strain, since the weekend before last. Been on the bike since…even tried acqua-running on Saturday!
Hopefully the physio will give me the thumbs up today 🤞
Tim your channel is great. Love the geeking out/ spreadsheets and conversational tone. Don't ever stop
Thanks! I put a lot of effort into the first few minutes then I thought it would be nigh on impossible to comment "usefully" on 22 channels in say less than 10 more minutes so thought would let the rest "run" with more of a "conversational tone" as you say or a "sort of" pseudo podcast. That said I did edit out as much as I could like changing the filter on my spreadsheet :)
Sagasu, Yowana and RunlikeHeller are my faves. Technical, practical and honest in the order that I listed them. Good breakdown Tim!
@@Runstrong_Chris yeah they all formed a key part of this analysis. Did I miss any channels you occasionally watch as well ?
@@TimGrose Yea I do have a few others I enjoy like @Freshbrewrunclub and @RuntallwithTim. They're not as much shoetubers as the others but they do offer good honest perspective on a few new releases here and there, but mainly I enjoy them taking you along on the run and talking training and coffee which I really enjoy myself lol
yowana takes to much time on one shoe 😅dts why I skip most of his videos , he us good but no ot every one can spend 1 hour for a shoe review
@@skobodabaws8946 On the days I work in the office I just hit play and let the video run while I'm working. Gets me through the first hour at least lol
Hey I made the Tim Grose shoetuber list! #arrival 😂
Well deserved, too.
Ha ha yes and hopefully you can see why now I was asking about your view on the Endorphin Pro 4. I wanted to try and include a few more like me that had tested around 10 shoes but had mostly bought the shoes themselves.
it usually means he will soon jump way past me in subs :)
I know it's going to be my kind of video when there's a spreadsheet involved! Top work!
On the subject of Yowana- when his videos first started increasing in length I thought it was a bit crazy. But having watched a few I like the format to be honest. Sometimes I skip to the vits that will interest me, other times they're good for having on im the background while I get the kids ready for school, but he's a likeable guy and I think he pulls it off.
@@arongoode1372 yeah TBH having seen my own rather long video here seemingly “working” then might be a model I can try again. I think the key is to have section markers and to keep talking so you can essentially just listen to it. Largely why I say what am seeing on the spreadsheet.
@@TimGrose I think there's a lot of people who consume TH-cam in a much more passive way these days.
@@arongoode1372 I do myself TBH as might often be working onto something on one screen and half watching/listening on another.
Another superb analysis Tim. Thank you for putting in the time to watch all these videos and collect all that data and share it all with us. Congrats on becoming a full time influencer and getting yourself some free shoes mate 🤣👍
Thanks! Typical of course I have sourced a pair of road ultra shoes when I had been training for track 800s and now can't even do that! That said you will pleased to hear I did manage a short "run" up a towpath on Monday and I was really surprised in dry, firm conditions that seemingly any road shoe would have done fine - here the Peg 41s.
Very interesting, enjoyed geeking out a bit. Double like for taking the time to go through Yowanas videos, that's some serious dedication there
Thanks! I was bit daunted about going through Yowana's stuff but fortunately he adds section headers so certainly a lot easier to dive into his conclusions which mostly told me what I wanted to know.
Phenomenal idea here! Having a running retail background WAY back in the OG running boom of the 70s -80s, I’m still fascinated by emerging tech - although, honestly, I don’t always agree w/ the direction. But, thanks much for your analyses and critiques.
I do look at several Shoe Tubers on a daily basis, and one thing I always wish they would be consistent on: Please reiterate your weight and height (I know you and Edd do), and your foot strike. So essential for fitting any kind of shoe. When a 6’+, 160lb+ reviewer says the shoe is too soft - well, maybe for them it is, but for my 5’6” / 128lbs it may be just right. Also, if they would reiterate their personal preference for soft, firm, high stack, low stack, etc., that’s also essential; otherwise, their opinion comes across as absolute, and misdirects many newer runners. How many “bad buys” were made on the basis of a reviewer’s opinion w/out any of their physical disclaimers? Again, thx much for the effort in this one!
Thanks! I feel now I “know” most of the TH-camrs I featured here so say if somebody with a wider foot says a shoe is too narrow I perk up and vice versa. I think there is also an element of knowing to look for red flags. So say that Neo Vista with a soft feel and a bootie upper I think that’s unlikely to be one I would get on with.
I have often wondered why Kofuzi weren't reviewing any Nike shoes lately. Yes, I think he mentions the brand occasionally on his live streams, but those aren't really for mass consumption given that I don't have the time or patience to view live streams. And the absence of that brand from his reviews, being the biggest and most accessible, love it or hate it, is absolutely glaring. Right now, the reviewer I follow most is Sagasu Running, for being the most absolutely sensible. Plus, we share the love for Adidas' Supernova Rise. So, cheers to you and all the effort you poured into this video and then sharing it with all of us, Tim!
Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah it was well known with Kofuzi some years ago now why he stepped back from Nike. As you say I don't have the time or inclination to tune into too many long live streams either. That said did you get an impression that his issues with Nike still exist? As you say I kind of feel if you are a reviewer of running shoes to continue to ignore the biggest brand is odd even despite what happened few years ago. It's a bit different for me with some brands like ASICS as being UK 13/US 14 they ignore me! Supernova Rise is a daily trainer I did not get round to trying out. Seems quite divided opinion on that one. It was EddBud's worst rated shoe this year but one of Sagasu Running favourites and clearly you too. Wonder why that is?
@@TimGrose When every form of digital media were rushing to push out their take on the highly covetable Alphafly 3 when it was launched, Kofuzi was totally mum about it. As a regular viewer, I was and still am perplexed. Did it impact my appreciation of him as a so-called shoetuber? I think it did, sponsored and all that. As for the Supernova Rise, I guess it boils down to preference. It's not the sexiest trainer around, but I love the feel of it. The same way Kofuzi felt the Cloudmonster as boring but Ben is Running picked it his shoe of the year. Or Ben Parkes' apparent dislike for the NB 1080 v13 when almost everybody else were singing praises about it (by the way, agree 100% with Ben Parkes). Or Run-Are's dismissal of Peg 41 but runrepeat giving it one of the highest rating for the year, same goes for Foot Doctor Zach too. To me, the Rise is just that kind of daily trainer that let's me enjoy the run minus the pressures of holding a pace, finishing a distance, or whatever it says on Strava. Sorry for the long litany, Tim.
sagasu is knowledgeable , makes it easy for u to understand d shoe
FASCINATING!!! What an awesome idea for a video! I intended to watch it in bits but I ended up watching the whole video with my morning coffee!😂 I never bought into "paying for shoes keeps reviewers more honest"... clearly anyone with more than a few years of running can feel what they do or don't like, PLUS making videos takes a lot of time and effort and I'm thrilled for anyone who starts getting freebies for their efforts!!! EDDBUD I'd say is the most passionately obsessed with shoes, he's really a professional collector!!😂 Aubrey is the one who most often likes the same shoes as me, probably because we're both slow runners and we both like relatively cushioned shoes (me since I mostly run long distances and very high volumes). Andy the FOD Runner I appreciate the most, particularly because he does genuine long runs and genuine long-term reviews, and not only longevity is one of the most important factors for me but many shoes change their feel considerably over distance and over time. I like Trail & Kale Running Co. too!
@@bev9708 maybe that is why EddBud still buys quite a few shoes as he is keen to get them full stop. Well done for getting to the end. Hope you spotted Daisy ?
Being a voracious consumer of running content and shoe reviews, I was going to write as close to 'war & peace' on this subject ( as close to the character limit in a reply will allow) . I deleted it. it was not needed. A great post Tim, well done , the numbers do not lie. My two pence for all ; Enjoy and take note of all reviews but where possible use your local running speciality (Brick and Mortar) store and try every shoe you are interested in and decide for yourself.
Thanks! There is a running "store" near me (Up & Running in
Surbiton) and have bought a few pairs there if not for some years but being the "odd" UK 13/US 14 I am I found it was sadly often a "wasted" trip for me personally.
Very interesting video, thanks for taking the extensive time (im assuming this took forever) to put it together. A note on the Alex Filliti (typo probably) question/topic. He is actually a part of a group called Meta Endurance, they have a website with a team of reviewers that get the shoes. He then posts videos under his own seperate account of his reviews but I believe theyre linked more than one would assume if you just watched his channel.
Ah thanks and yes did it take "forever" which is largely why this is my first video for a while. I had always assumed Meta Endurance was largely just him but with some ad hoc "help" from friends like say in his SL2 video. I had noted they offer coaching services but these days I don't tend to "read" reviews - well with 530 videos to watch for this I was also "busy" LOL although, as I mentioned, I did check some written reviews for other channels that do them as it helped to decide on my like/neutral/dislike classification.
Alex is very straight forward
Excellent concept and analysis. Not only did I watch the whole video, I've also read all the comments - the latter being something I never do.
Thanks! Yeah always good to continue the discussion in the comments and I like to try and give reasonably considered replies. I do find with some channels if the comments rarely, if ever, get replies then I am far less likely to comment myself.
The perfect morning coffee video, Tim:) I skipped through to the ones that interest me the most for now.
I' ve gone over to the Shoetubers myself now... But with currently only 20 subscribers, I doubt companies will want to send me shoes for free anytime soon. So I haven' t felt the need to waste time with a disclaimer that is longer than the video itself haha.
Saw your comment so went over to subscribe and watch your 2 videos! 24 subscribers now!!😁
@@bev9708 Thanks! It will be mostly trail shoes for now as there isn' t a lot of content on them. As Tim has pointed out, the hype road shoes get enough coverage anyway;)
@@robin29991 Great!! I do 90% trail running myself, so far lots of trail marathons and 50k ultras but working on upping that for next year!🤞🏻💪🏻🏃🏻♀️💪🏻
I see you have a few more now :) Good to actually see you. Those trails don’t look too bad almost like towpaths. I might try my Peg 41s on them :)
@@TimGrose Yeah, I was really happy about all the positive feedback I got!
Tbh when it's dry most of the trails in the videos are runnable in road shoes. Towpaths however are a different story... Heard they will shred your shoes to bits and leave you with mud on your heels which is just the worst. Very grateful I don't have any of those around here.
You did well to watch all those Fordy Runs. A true endurance mindset.
@@anyab882 once got past the disclaimer at least I usually got the verdict I was looking for.
Appreciate your hard work to complete this. I also tend to look at consumer reviews, at say Sportshoes, to see what ‘normal’ runners think although there is always some inherent bias for a variety of reasons. Brand loyalty etc. Thanks again.
Yeah it is good now that there are quite a few sources to check for reviews. I think a lot of runners (me included often) can get "defensive" about shoes they have bought and get on with reasonably well when others may disagree. Good of course there is a lot of choice now and TBH there aren't really many "bad" shoes these days and even then something bad for you maybe good for somebody else.
Monumental effort Tim. Great work.
Thanks 👍
Tim, throughly enjoyed listening to your analysis and commentary while I prepped for my long run. Will dig into your channel now thanks to this vid, cheers!
Thanks very much!
Wonderful idea for a show and another excellent episode. Thank you for this amazing content.
Thanks!
Great work Tim! I enjoy your reviews in that you're clear that you have your own preferences. I can filter through that to work out if something might work for me. Interesting that you don't like the DOR reviews. They're pretty much my go to in that they explain the characteristics of each shoe without unneccessarily interjecting their opinions. I know what works for me so their descriptions are a big help to me. I sometimes watch a few of the others and they vary in usefulness as a practical tool for informing my decisions but there are at least 2 who are almost completely clueless. I'm also particularly averse to people trying to sell me coaching advice when their own training is so woeful.
TBF it could just be that to determine the specific info I wanted for my video, it was harder with them than most others. That said I do tend to prefer a review style when you can quickly determine if a reviewer likes a shoe or not.
Tim I love these sorts of videos and thank you for all the hard work and analysis. Look forward to many more from you and you offer a unique view compared to others. Hope you never get disheartened with TH-cam metrics because many of us really enjoy the content you produce. As a side note, videos like these are great for people who have TH-cam premium, or just have it on in the background, as it almost turns into a podcast. Probably a reason why I also enjoy Yowana’s videos (when I’m not feeling impatient).
Thanks much appreciated. I had wondered about TH-cam Premium but I also thought that having the most common setup (i.e. without it) would tell me more about how the majority of viewers consume TH-cam content. I probably now ought to turn my attention to a UK parkrun fastest/slowest courses update which quite a few viewers have said are keen to see.
@@TimGrose I look forward to it!
What an amazing video - it must have been a lot of hard work. I'm already on the same page as you for most of the influencers, and I can read between the lines too. I have been running since the early 70's and did most of my full and half marathons in the early 80's dropping to 10k's in the 2000's, interspersed with Powerlifting at international level. With my recent return to running I've had the advantage of TH-cam this time, and most importantly you guys. I have managed to buy 5 pairs of shoes that I actually love based on reviews, including yours, and enjoyed doing it too. I look forward daily to watching you guys daily. You are appreciated
Mick Toland age 64 Midlands England
Many thanks Mick. Yeah it did take about 3 weeks of "research" and best part of day to record it but pleased how it came out. I have had a bit of an injury since start of June so doing my own shoe reviews of late would not have been overly inciteful ! Funny to think the shoes we would have used in the 70s and 80s might "at best" be lifestyle shoes these days but I think my younger legs could get away with it better than now.
@@TimGrose I do hope you get well soon amigo - you will also be pleased to hear I followed your advise once more regarding a winter shoe - your video standing and running in the water swayed me - perfect method to test them really
@@micktoland733 thanks. Managed a whole km non stop today so some progress. Can’t be long before the Peg Trail 5 GORE-TEX comes along then will go and tip toe through another ford !
Credit to you for such an in depth analysis. It was an interesting watch. Thanks Tim. 👍
Much appreciated!
Amazing job with this, Tim! The work that went into it is probably well beyond what I could imagine. I'm familiar with most but not all of these channels and I thought your reviews were on the mark, one person's opinion of course but fair and well considered. There were probably more positive ratings of the channels than the 6/3/1 ratio, but then they were all sent to you free other than the time it took to watch them.
Good analogy! Might argue the only dislikes are not featured but I tried to include everybody could think of in this space that actually has done a fair number of reviews this year. I watch all of them regularly but as you may have inferred there are some I watch more than others. Think it also depends on the shoe being featured.
@@TimGrose Yes, some of the shoetubers also say that they aren't going to spend time running in and producing a video about shoes that they truly dislike when it's just a fun side project. For those who put affiliate links in their descriptions, of course, there's another reason not to post reviews where the message is not "buy these now."
I will agree about DOR in that I feel like they do not do a great job of engaging with their audience. I have commented on several occasions, and asked specific questions about shoes they reviewed and I have gotten NO response. It is very much like talking into a void. I will say though, when you dig into their written reviews, they are incredibly informative. I also love how each review covers "stability" because I am someone that needs a little more stability in my shoe, and there are so few "stability" shoes I like, and zero super shoes.
Yeah as I mentioned, I have largely stopped commenting on channels that don’t tend to engage. If I “like” a video I watch most or all of it and maybe hit the like button.
Thanks for the mention Tim! I didn't realise I disliked that many shoes 😂😂. I get about half my shoes supplied the rest I buy...and yep that Peg 41 👎🏽.
@@run-are thanks for dropping by. The fact I did not realise you have that mix of supplied/bought shoes probably also shows there is no bias in your reviews. Peg 41 seems to have divided opinions for sure. For some reason on some runs it (or a previous version) does me fine. Perhaps as I nearly always have worn that sort of 10mm drop shoe for my now 40 plus years as a runner. Also at the moment got a bit of an issue with my Achilles and physio wants me to use insole with more arch support for a while and it is a shoe that is easy for me to do so unlike say SL2.
I love DOR podcasts! They have a different approach to shoe reviews which can come off as a breath of fresh air so to speak
Yeah I might have been a bit harsh there as I have watched/listened to a few and been good value. I think what I really meant is I felt I had to consume quite a lot of their content to find out what they really thought about a shoe and indeed in the end I found it easier to glean that from the conclusion of their written reviews rather than many of their videos.
DoR generally don’t like/dislike shoes. Instead, they tend to tell you which type of runners a shoe might be good or bad for. In that way, I really appreciate what they do.
They may not engage much with comments on YT. However, they use such comments, as well as from Instagram (where they might engage more), as the basis for their mail bag episodes.
Great video, and nice to see your peers leaving positive comments too.
Thanks and yes good engagement in the comments for sure.
Excellent analysis. I guess something good came out of the injury as i imagine this research took some serious time. Thanks and gett well soon.
Thanks and yeah probably if I had not been able to run anywhere near as much as normal (or sadly seemingly right now does not seem overly sensible anyway) this analysis would have taken even longer. I "just about" managed to get my own SL2 review out.
Great analysis! One thing that screws the stats (like, neutral, dislike) is the fact that most of these reviewers will prefer NOT to review a sent shoe rather than publish a negative one…I strongly believe these stats would be very different had they bought the shoes themselves.
Maybe but is there really any actual evidence that happens a lot ? I recall Aubrey did a video covering all the shoes he did not review because did not work for him but there weren’t that many. Also Emily from Run Like Heller I recall doing similar ones. That said I can think of two shoes I bought and never reviewed but one I just never got round to using as it was a niche trail shoe. But that’s like 2 in about 100 shoes I have bought in the last 5 years so would not materially effect the stats and anyway the one I did not wear I might have liked !
Just the video I wanted but never knew it. Was hoping you'd have a good whipcrack at a few channels but this was fair, the numbers don't tell everything but they don't lie. Lot of work 👍🏿
Yeah thanks. Whilst I think it is fair to say that I watch all these channels on a regular basis (albeit some only since recently) and largely enjoy their videos, I equally admit I like some channels more than others. I have got to assume that is largely the case with everybody. I guess I also like to watch as many different channels as I can to see what I think works best and vice versa and so provide inspiration for my own stuff.
Amazing video Tim, what a beast of an analysis. Hopefully all the views makes it worth the effort
Thanks! Yes the feedback and the views are very pleasing for sure. Makes me think should do a few more like this especially currently with a bit of an injury meaning talking about my own running (or lack of) not so good.
@@TimGrose Hope you're back out and running soon Tim, nothing more frustrating than an injury
@@TomSzczepanski Indeed! I have at least been on Zwift last 2 days as figured I need to try and maintain some aerobic fitness and more effective doing that than short "hobbles" I have been doing few times a week for the last month.
Always find it a little strange the concentration of reviewing based largely on marathon use when the vast majority of runners will never go near a marathon...Some reviewers have a strange attitude towards shoes that are designed specifically for so called shorter distances...seems to me a lack of knowledge, research, detail it's a small thing but one that tends to irritate..Lack of detail is.something you can never be accused of...always appreciate the work you put in.
Yeah it can be odd I agree. Basically near all the carbon fibre plated racing shoes are marketed as marathon racing shoes but personally I find my favourite Vaporfly 1 the best shoe I have for everything from short sprints to the marathon itself. The general trend though is that this shoe is good for 5K, this one for 10K, this one for HM, this one for Marathon and indeed comments like I can't run a marathon in this one when all the shoes these days are miles more cushioned than the flats I used to wear only as recently as 2018. Out of interest, what shoes are you thinking of that are designed for short distances. There aren't many these days and even ones like the Takumi Sen I haven't really found are "better" than the so called marathon ones for me anyway.
I think a significant minority do a HM/marathon especially in running clubs where the percentage seems to be over half. I think people see them as events compared to Parkruns or 10ks and therefore worthy of shelling out a bit more on a shoe. It also seems to be the case that Runtubers often move within a year or two of doing a marathon block rather than continuing to work on their 5k times. Therefore they talk a lot about marathons mostly. Finally, I think also people hear about supershoes but it doesn't really matter that there's slightly better 5k/10k shoes so you can use a marathon shoe on all.
Superb work as usual Sir Tim. Honesty, integrity and useful information guaranteed!
Many thanks!
Amazing work, this video is extremely helpful. I appreciate how much effort you must have put into this analysis 💪
I appreciate that! Yeah it did take an awful lot of research and I undoubtedly increased view times on lots of channels :)
What a spreadsheet!
Phenomenal commitment Tim to go through methodically like this - you must have set out in 2024 with this in mind?
Thanks! I had the "real" idea when I saw Aubrey's video on the Triumph 22 but it was also a sort of follow on to the one I did about 6 months ago when was "counting" how many shoes each TH-camr reviewed and tried to compare with their mileage. So it was a good 3 weeks of research. I often have "ideas" like this but then a bit of an internal "sigh" when realise how much research would be needed to turn it from an opinion based video to a more clearly evidenced one. And it was the "opinion" that shoes supplied "for review" are more biased than ones you bought yourself was what I was trying to examine. It's interesting that despite what I found, many still believe there is a bias and TBH perhaps, in some cases, I tend to still see that but I hope I showed it was not always the case.
Thank you for your effort in trying to quantify all these shoe reviews and reviewers, obviously a lot of work, and much appreciated!
My take on your take:
1) Agree, EddBudd is outstanding. Honest, unafraid to go against the hype, detailed, thorough, great sense of humor, excellent insights and observations, everything you need to know in 15 minutes. Plus, his brief musical interlude at the end of each vid is fantastic. During a segment "My worst purchases of 2023," he pointed out that the fabric lace loops on his low-mileage Cloudmonsters were already starting to fray, so would eventually break and render the $170.00 shoe useless, I never considered that before.
2) Yowanna is great because he puts MILES on his shoes, he"ll get 100 miles on a shoe in a matter of days. Agreed his posts are a little undisciplined/unstructured, but he gives a real world perspective on ride, quality, wear and tear, and long term durability. No fluff or bullshit, just running, As someone who puts mileage on his shoes 1,000+ before replacing, this is valuable to me, and few other reviewers so so. Last, I find his long form vids perfect when I'm on the treadmill or the Wahoo,
3) I find Believe In The Run hosts banter cutesy, irritating, and a waste of my time; further, their reviews are cookie cutter, and they've been mailing it in for a long time now. Watch one of their vids and you've seen them all. They might as well be retailers. Never watch them anymore. I subscribe to Kofuzi, but don't watch him much either, overly dramatic, takes himself too seriously and undoubtedly bought and paid for.
4) Your Nike fixation is fascinating. Here in the US, Nike is a tier 2 or 3 running brand; outside of their racing shoes, they don't have a single shoe that would make anyone"s top-5 in any running shoe segment. That said, I'm about to buy a pair of Invincible 3s, but only because they're on sale for $89.00.
5) Not sure why you're going on about what other reviewers think of Peg 41, or fights between shoe reviewers, sounds like "Real Housewives" territory.
Sorry if all this sounds harsh, just being honest, and I did subscribe to your channel.
Thanks for your detailed thoughts. I tend to agree with most of it. Re Nike - personally it is the brand I have undoubtedly have had most shoes from over the years but especially road racing and spikes and if say the Peg Turbos get back "to form" might re-replace the Endorphin Speeds as the shoe I use most. I also feel Nike shoes tend to get the most interest in videos. Out of interest from what standpoint is your tier 2 or 3 comment coming? From running friends, what is stocked in stores or just a general impression? Now I think about it, some objective analysis of what shoes runners are actually using might be a good topic for a future video. Point 5 was largely the "inspiration" for this video as I felt there was a big under current of whether a shoe was truly liked or otherwise depending on whether it was paid for or otherwise. After that several TH-camrs rather went to town on their disclaimers...
@@TimGroseKeep up the great work!
This is an excellent, interesting, unique video. Fantastic work!
Many thanks!
I tend to watch the yowana videos before bed every night, great with some tea and tend to watch the whole video as well
Ah interesting. His style is clearly working for many and indeed the relative success of this rather long one myself has certainly given me food for thought. Big difference though my hour long video took a good 3 weeks to research whereas he can knock them out every day which I have to admire for sure. Do you actually "watch" the whole thing or is it more listening? I like to think my reviews of the reviewers could be listened to without really losing much - well unless you have a great love of spreadsheets :)
@@TimGrose that’s super true yeah it’s definitely nitche but I guess that was helps maintain a cold following. Kinda like altra… or at least old altra. Not sure why altra is doing now.
I usually watch an episode a day before bed and yeah I watch the whole thing.
But I tend to miss a big t sometimes on business days vs it’s much easier to watch a 4-8 min video for a quick over view during the day or during a lunch break or something.
takes long with one shoe
Fantastic Tim. Very enjoyable 👏
Many thanks!
Aubrey's video on the triumph 22 calling out someone for not liking a shoe that they bought was ridiculous
Well if nothing else it was the "inspiration" for this video but I wanted to take an analytical approach to the wider subject to see if I could work out what the general situation is.
Tim very impressive video. This had to have taken many hours to gather the data then analyze?
Yeah it seems like "forever" but I had started the work shortly after Aubrey's Triumph 22 video which was largely the "inspiration". On and off about 3 weeks of TH-cam viewing then best part of a day doing the video. I spent way way longer than normal on the first few minutes.
A real running shoe geek ;) regarding RTR, they have a website, which I prefer instead of their videos and they have a big team so thats a bonus. Alex Filitti also has a website and they are at least 2 reviewers from what I remember. For your year end video, it would be interesting to see what shoes are the most common in the "best of the year" videos. I dont use a spreadsheet but I count which shoes get the most "awards" and thats usually the shoes I buy ;) now I have a 60 pairs collection lol. Finally regarding DOR, they are among my favorites because you can see they take this "seriously", they are passionate about it and their website is great. Another reviewer I like quite a bit is RUN-ARE because he actually gives a score and ranks them. I don't like the green/red scoring system because that does not tell you much when 60% are green. Another one I liked was Seth James because I think he was the one who disliked most shoes so he helped me not buying too many shoes.
Yeah it was useful to be able to consult with the written reviews although have to admit I do only tend to read the conclusions even when not just looking for them. The traffic light system I thought was good for this analysis to keep it fairly concise but even then I debated quite a few which made the analysis take even longer.
Agree that the RTR website is a much better resource than the videos. I think the videos tend to be more fist Impressions and round-ups. Particularly on the more popular releases they'll have multiple testers, and the comparison section at the end where they compare to prior models and similar shoes is really useful. Only downside is the website is littered with pop-up ads these days.
@@wes5263 I just ublock origin on Chrome and I never see ads anywhere :p
Great meta analysis! You‘ve got another subscriber, Tim 😀
Many thanks!
A lot of work went into crunching these data 📊 Wow!
yeah it did but have had an injury since start of June so I sort of diverted a bit of time from running (or trying to!) to watching even more TH-cam vids!
Only person you didn't get for me is Old Man Van Running. He's great for stability and stable neutral shoes.
Ah yes thanks. I have heard of him and may well include him if do someting similar again.
He does engage well
While some may say the low number of dislikes suggests bias, truth is that this is probably just because shoe companies are getting better. There just aren’t that many truly “bad” shoes that come out.
@@elliotendures very true and TBH even the shoe I disliked (AF3) I still managed to get through 1.5 sessions in (other half being Shoeoff vs VF3). Really I was disliking that it did not suit me. They clearly are “liked” by many others.
Great analysis, and thank you for the hard work and time that went in to this video. The reason i like Aubrey so much is he runs similar paces and is a similar body shape to me! I usually watch a range of reviews if I'm interested in a shoe and gauge it from the reviewers opinion on shoes that i already own. We for example do not match on our shoe likes and dislikes ilikes. Fortunately for me i still like to watch your reviews and listen to what you say, and use it to fill in a picture.
Thanks for watching! A common theme on quite a few comments here is trying to identify with reviewers that you resonate most with. That said you may recall Aubrey & I met up this time last year and I helped him pace his session. That was no jog for me I assure you. Also I asked him what shoes out of those we both have shall we both run in and he suggested Adios Pro 3. I shoe for me I would put just into the Like category and must be for him too - the one he used for his recent 5K PB for instance. I also recall he likes Vaporflys which is my overall favourite race shoe. Sometimes I also learn things from reviewers who may I not generally resonate with at all. E.g. if they say a shoe is too narrow for them, I perk up etc etc. Also I think it would be kind of daft if reviewer either liked or disliked all the same shoes. That would imply they are all pretty much the same and thankfully there is now hopefully a shoe (or more!) to suit pretty much everybody.
@@TimGrose Funnily enough I also have the Adiós Pro 3. It really grew on me. My fastest 5k is in Vaporflys.. I just don't love it. Being short and 82kg, I'm not the ideal build for running! Totally get what you say. If you were to say you like a shoe but it is too wide, my ears would certainly prick up! I started running at 49, 4 years ago and feel too old... So it's certainly inspirational watching you! Thanks again 👍
This is a magnificent bit of work. 👏👏👏
Many thanks!
This is a very good review...brillant ...cheers Tim
Many thanks!
Wow, just wow Tim, do you get paid for that excel work?
A really extremly interesting statistics video!
BTW, why was my personal best shoe of 2024 so far reviewed by no one? For me, the New Balance Venym is the best "light trail" shoe of 2024.
And about the trustworthiness of shoetubers: The ones buying all shoes themselves of course much higher than those who get them for free ... some of them clearly review according to "don't bite the hand that feeds ..."!
Ha ha that might be nice. Can’t say had even heard of that NB one. Did anybody review it ? As for last point I guess I sort of concluded here that may not be as obviously apparent as we all probably have tended to think. Can you point to some actual examples where you thought this was happening ?
@@TimGrose How about Ed? I see some distinct brand bias in his reviews.
If and how a shoe performs for you is mainly personal, but the overall quality of the manufacturing should be judged fairly.
So I have Puma shoes and also Nike shoes, I see no difference in the appearance and overall quality of the shoes.
Ed always sees gluemarks and dodgy stitching on Nike shoes but never on Pumas ... as you know Nike shoes were bought, Puma shoes were given for free ... seems suspicious to me.
Great video Tim. Must have taken so long to put together and hours of watching others videos! Fair play!
Thanks! Yeah it did take ages but have had an injury through June so with much less training time some of that sort of got diverted.
Great analysis Tim 👍🏻
Thanks!
I have to say there’s general agreement across all of these reviewers on most shoes. My preferred reviewers are Ed Budd, The Run Testers, Believe in the Run, and Seth DeMoor. I think Fordy watches other reviewers, then does his review, and/or goes along with consensus takes as you point out with Nike Peg 41. It’s beat up on Nike year generally speaking. Certainly reasons for that but not to extent of everyone jumping on the band bandwagon…
Yeah I think you are right there and it's probably because the "hype" shoes from the big brands generally these days are good and it is actually now somewhat unusual for a shoe to be universally slated.
Very interesting! As someone who works in the industry, there's some reviewers that I find often being quite poor in their knowledge of shoes or having opinions on things where they are clearly clueless, which I find annoying.
My biggest pet hate is some UK reviewers genuinely seem to think UK sizes are "universal" across brands whereas really there are 2 camps (e.,g Nike/Saucony/Brooks vs adidas/New Balance/Hoka) Got to use US or cm sizes for at least theoretical uniformity. As such then they often appear to review what is quite possibly the wrong size for them and may also state incorrectly that a shoe is not "TTS" or worse imply a shoe does not function correctly as a result. Otherwise if pushed I imagine there are all sorts of technical things about shoes I don't really know anything about. Have you got a particular example (and the issue not necessarily the person) ?
@@TimGrose Well, as I said many use the wrong terminology or say wrong things about shoes. But that can happen. Some, and I think you can guess who, always complains about the quality of certain (Nike) brands. And as someone who handles claims, I can say with confidence Nike trainers hold very good quality compared to many other brands.
Another example is pricing. There's often some complaints about pricing, for example the EVO (I met and spoke to the designers and development team). Adidas does not make money off that shoe (currently). The shoe is crazy expensive but people underestimate the cost of R&D.
@@QronoZ713 yeah that shoe was clearly designed to help their best athletes do their best performances. The fact the AF3 seems to sell out in minutes every time there is a drop suggests money is little barrier to those who want to try these things. Besides a lot lot cheaper than the days when I was into bike time trials!
@@QronoZ713 yeah never get the "quality" thing. As long as my shoes don't fall apart (can only think of one in 40 years where the tongue came out after a couple of runs which was actually a Saucony) then once have done a few runs in a shoe they all look "used" and TBH I prefer them like than some thing you put on your shelf to "admire".
Tim - Great recap on vloggers and shoes. Would be willing to share your excel sheet?
If you want to send me an email (see my About page) then will do.
Aubrey is the worst running reviewer, he avgs 2 runs a weeks and has less than 450k on strava for the year. He runs for views, cash and shoes. Not cause he loves running
I thought my fairest reply here would be to invite Aubrey to do so. He said “Truthfully speaking… I have experienced injuries and only ramping up mileage now with a lot more running now that I’m doing the marathon training plan so the mileage will ramp up. Aside from that, my goal is to run my way and not necessarily satisfy anyone’s expectations”
@TimGrose and if he was just sharing his journey as a runner I would fully accept that, celebrate it even. Encouraging people to run is something I love to do, but I believe when doing reviews it should come from a place of experience and knowledge. His videos seems more about editing and lighting than rigorous testing of the product. I have complimented him on his videos for the high production of them, they do look great, but a good looking video doesn't mean I should listen to his opinion. He was putting out reviews for shoes when I know from things he has said he was injured with a back issue. How can you test a product when injured? It doesn't make sense.
People rely on reviewers they can trust to help them make good decisions on how they spend their resources. Running shoes are massively expensive, so when people watch a review it needs to be based on honesty and clarity.
I love ben is running videos but won't rely on his reviews for reasons you listed in this video. But I can still enjoy his content.
Phily bowden makes amazing running content, but she never reviews a shoe.
Aubrey seems to have watched some videos about how to become a youtuber which will all say find your neiche and stick to it. He found running as his neiche but doesn't love the sport, nor is he particularly knowledgeable about it.
@@hippygeeza gave up on his channel after he essentially starts a training block / series and never finishes anything. Very obvious he is out for YT fame and free shoes !
He's probably a nice guy, and it's nothing against him, but I just worry the loads of new runners who watch YT and take certain channels as gospel.
Yea agree, barely runs and reviewing shoes after a couple of runs.
Definitely confused with Aubrey’s approach to Jason Jogs’ review. Had no clue who he was talking about at the time and honestly was disappointed in him for doing that being someone who subscribed to him when he had a small following. It was a bit out of line.
I think it probably did Jason a favour in the end. Once found it, I watched a few more then more (for this) and subscribed.
I watched this video in increments throughout my day at work (benefits of WFH). Can't get enough of this analysis stuff, and enjoy the commentary too. Also, say hello to Daisy for me. Cats are such no-bullshit animals, which makes them completely the opposite of many Shoe-Tubers (despite what your bought Vs Given analysis might show!).
Well done for making it to see Daisy! You could also see I started filming in bright sunshine and finished when it was more or less dark. We got Daisy as a kitten almost to the day 17 years ago now so she is certainly an old cat now. She has liver issues so the vet suggested to put her on a "special" diet but even that stuff doesn't always say done. We are now also trying small bits of chicken. Glad you liked the vid. Took best part of a month from "concept" to research and filming. Think will move on to an update on the parkrun fastest/slowest courses next. Got a bit of an injury so my running has been limited for the last month but I am also now at 50 miles in the Peg 41 :)
I find shoetube reviews really useful. Often they all have bias towards a type of shoe or the fit/feeling of the shoe. Even when they dislike a shoe it’s obvious to me in some instances that it would be perfect for me!
In that sense I glean the information I want from their reviews, rather than follow their recommendations 😅
Know what you mean. Classic example for me is if somebody says a shoe is a bit narrow for them I perk up (as I have narrow feet) and often vice versa. Of recent shoes Puma Deviate Nitro 3 is a good example where some reviewers cited it being narrow but fits me better than most shoes for sure. That said I still got the Rebel v4 which is possibly the widest shoe of my recent purchases. Perhaps I had not realised quite how wide it was for me until I got it.
As a pretty avid watcher of R4A, generally Loyd buys all the shoes himself and he usually only highlights if a shoe was sent to him rather than giving the same disclaimer repeatedly. There’s only been a handful of times I can recall a shoe was sent to him and he indicates when that is the case.
Ah that's interesting. If anything I had rather assumed the opposite to what you are saying. Either way his like/neutral/dislike ratios seem to match the general trend which was the key conclusion to the analysis. Must say that does surprise me because, as I commented in another reply, I think I have had one shoe ever that paid for itself and even channels with approximately an order of magnitude more subs than me like his one might struggle to even cover the cost of the shoes alone.
@@TimGrose he does advertise his Patreon support link which I don’t think I see other channels do as much, so maybe he gets some added support by that means.
Kofuzi, Sagasu, Fordyruns and Yowana was 🔥🔥🔥
Yes all a key part of this analysis.
Great work Tim, I do wonder have you reviewed the paris series yet? I know Everybody else has already! Lol. But I think the more runners the better as everyone has diffrent likes and dislikes! I know for myself I've found some shoes like the asics metaracer 2 I loved for faster training runs but most reviews say it's to firm for them. I gues I tend to like a firmer shoe as I used to run marathons in the old orginal Adidas Adios 1 and 2 back from the 2010-2013 era.
Sadly they don’t do my size UK 13 as 12 biggest they do. Otherwise seems to be more of a divide now between who prefers the Sky or Edge and the ones who like the Sky don’t obviously fit the ASICS narrative for stride and cadence runners. I have had nearly all the all Adios versions. I got the first pairs before the first Boost version and raced all my road races in them. That first Boost one would now be thought of the Adios 1 and I did a marathon in them in 2016. Eventually had to stop using them when the then largest UK 12.5 got a bit small for me but at least now they generally do the 13.5. Always have a bit of an internal chuckle when somebody says one of the latest high stack carbon racers can’t do the marathon when it wasn’t long ago we thought Adios flats had some “cushion” and certainly felt fast and they were a lot compared to what must have used in the 80s when I started. I used a lot of Nike Streak flats over the years.
@@TimGrose it’s funny indeed, as I used to race all my Marathons in flats and didn’t have issues plus have a PB in the pre boost adios, but I’m 56 so my fastest times are behind me. Yeah, that’s an issue on size. Bought the edge Paris very impressed with it so far. One reason I also loved the edge + was it felt more l firm and got a half marathon course PB in them. I love Adidas but have become more into ASICS in the last few years. Used to use only adidas actually.
@@ericwj7 Ah I am just a year older at 57. I did try the Adios 1 again for a "shoeoff" couple of years ago and, for sure, it wasn't as good as it seemed at the time but then again even my 40 something self was just better than now. Still it is what it is and good to have "better" shoes now although with an injury at the moment no magic wand. I tend to be mostly either Nike, Saucony or adidas but often for the size restrictions I mentioned.
@@TimGrose Funny, i found the same experience when I tried out a newish 220m pair of the Adios. I was like these are really firm!? lol. But I ran in them for years! My last try was the adios 6 and they were Ok but too firm in the forefoot for me. I need to try the new Bostons as well. Love Saucony as well, had a great experience in the older Pro & speed 2s for a marathon and just training.
@@ericwj7 Boston used to be my daily trainer versions 2 to 5 then also got a bit small for me. The more recent ones are a lot “more shoe” and I only got limited use out of them compared to say Endorphin Speeds of late I have actually been enjoying the Peg 41 - decent cushioning but not silly soft as some I find are now.
Quality content! Love from Norway
Thanks!
Kofuzi stopped working with Nike after the Alberto Salazar, etc. scandals and how Nike handled it. He stopped running in them completely for awhile. Now he does run in them here and there, but he doesn't make them a priority And they don't send him shoes so he often gets them much later than other reviewers and so he doesn't often publish a review video. That said he does talk about the shoes on his live streams so you get a bit of a review there but not an official review.
Yeah thanks. I said in another reply that I was aware of that and admired his stance at the time but I get the impression from his videos and the buying guides etc etc that Nike shoes just don't enter into the conversation - at least there. That said I can see why he isn't that bothered about joining the scramble for the likes of the drip feed of the Alphafly 3.
I can't trust Kofuzi... I cant help but feel that he is a sell-out (asics)!
But even if he had a grudge against Nike's management or policies or attitude or whatvr happnd.. he should still review Nike shoes honestly for what they really are!! It is useless if the reviews are not unbiased!
@@bluesque9687 okay. It's not like he's the only one that's been a fan of what Asics has been doing lately.
@@tgibridays I don't watch all of them... but he seems dodgy to me for sure!
Nick from Run testers loves Asics Metaspeed sky Paris and can't stop raving about it.. but I don't doubt him in the least! So, I am not saying every Asics or Nike fan boy shoetuber is $$..
@@bluesque9687 if you watch his superblast 2 video, kofuzi literally suggests nike invincible 3 as an alternative to it because of its lower price. He'd still suggest nike shoes if he actually likes them LOL
you've got run4adventure neutral on the xodus ultra 3, which is was very positive on
Just rewatched from about 13:00 into th-cam.com/video/1F4C0_w-IJo/w-d-xo.html To me there is a theme that he preferred the previous version and a lack of "wow factor". One of my rules of thumb is that if they said they preferred the previous version it largely suggests they were going to say see if can that older one at discount so hence a neutral view of a shoe because they aren't really convincing me the new one is one I should buy.
Tim - ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT REVIEW . . . overdue, brilliant and quite surprising.
The only piece of data that you could never have trawled and presented was the amount of sh!t shoes Shoe-tubers are sent, hate and don't review/present . . . as I suspect there are a fair few of these, thus channels keep a tight control on "mostly presenting only positive reviews due to, overwhelmingly, being provided free shoes".
I see Shoe-tubers a little like wine reviewers of the past . . . they appear transparent, have their rating systems, earnestly try to appear to have validity.
However, what your presentation has SCREAMED is that in the main, all Shoe-tubers have predominantly 100% provided stock. Old-mate Eddbud being a rare presenter that both buys many of his shoes and tends to be "rather honest"; although his scoring system combines a dependent variable in "value" with the three independent variables of upper, midsole and outsole.
I trust Eddbud and yourself, first and foremost due to true independence and transparency.
I like FOD, as he runs his shoes to 300+ miles . . . and this reflects "99% of us" that buy to get full life-cycle, not get a feel-good shoe for 50miles then dies or outsole capitulates.
Of the Run testers, I find Nick the most valuable, as he often relates shoes, paces and run-styles/technique
The fact that Kofuzi doesn't review Nike is VERY STRANGE and he always whines about this . . . "Mike?!!?!? Buy your own Nike pairs, claim them on tax, be transparent . . . simple!!!" (apologies wasn't aware of his stance on Nike athlete treatment)
BitR Meghan is far more insightful than Robbe or Thomas . . . likely because she does huge volume and has wide feet, these things are valuable to viewers.
. . . one of the true challenges for Shoe-tubers is both differentiating but providing decent insight/content . . . ie great to watch most (Sagasu, MattB, RoadTrailRun, Emily Heller, Docs of Running, Seth, AlexF, Run-ARE, BenParkes, Ginger, . . .), but it's just become a wish-wash of "same-ness" and positivity.
Shoe-tubers all know, you post a Nike Pegasus review . . . you're going to get huge views . . . so how do you stay transparent when you're monetising different content that you ABSOLUTELY KNOW will make you money, whereas other shoes won't.
I expect Adios 9 and Topo Specter 2 to be shoes that would be 9.5/10 for most club-runners . . . but it'll be interesting to see how much content and positive content they receive, if any.
Thanks for your detailed thoughts. Was only watching EddBud's latest Superblast 2 video and thought he is the first one to actually point out some potential real issues and he got sent that one "for review". I also think Edd shows that sometimes you "need" to buy some shoes to give us viewers an objective view of the entire market although perhaps sometimes I am a little biased with Nike as I probably use their shoes more than any other brand. I've actually been in the Peg 41 pretty much every time of late even when not running much - just a good shoe for walking as well and I can experiment swopping out the stock insole with one with more arch support my physio wants me to use - at least for a while. I guess there are quite a lot of "good" shoes these days but it is always interesting to see what TH-camrs actually want to use on race day. Maybe there is another angle for me :) Adios 9 will be interesting. Before "super" shoes I did all my races and faster work in what was effectively the Adios 1 so always have a fondness for that line even if the recent ones have kind of been something and nothing in a way. Never tried a Topo. With rather narrow feet those type of shoes always seemed a complete waste on me.
Always love your excels (and shoes too)
Thanks! Yeah this spreadsheet took me a while to get to a format that "worked". Cell notes are often so use to avoid extra columns largely full of whitespace.
This is very useful. Thank you. Any chance to get the excel file posted to google drive? It would be great for the random viewer to check out these numbers. Again, very much appreciated!
I was also thinking of compiling the finishing times of these reviewers to help viewers to "relate". A finishing time vs. shoe size chart would be something doable given that they usually publicly report on their shoe size
If you send me an email (see my About page) then I would be happy to reply with it.
what you mean finishing time as in a race of a certain distance and "recently" ?
@@TimGrose yes exactly finishing time in a race, typically half or 10k given that not all of these people run marathons
Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching!
Great channel
Love a lot of the channels you’ve named..I’m often sceptical about people who get free shoes..how can their review be unbiased?
If they hate the shoe will these top companies continue to send them free pairs?
I guess I was trying to show that even though we tend to think that about free shoes there was still a similar number of “dislikes” albeit not many anyway although that is reflective of there being not many “bad” shoes these days.
@@TimGrose I think it’s truly in their best interest to be honest..bcus if they say a terrible shoe is good their credibility is FINISHED
@@martinmcgrath1985 sure agreed. That said can’t think of any examples like that? Also it is pretty rare now for a shoe to be truly terrible. I might have had a few been pretty bad for me personally but others have enjoyed them. So say Ultrafly springs to mind.
Ginger runner indeed makes films for trailrunners, or (trail) running brands.
Ah good to know thanks. Have you heard if he has deliberately stepped back from TH-cam as a result? Anyway, as you will have seen, his Buy/Try/Why classification is a very good summary takeaway from a shoe review.
@@TimGrose the Ginger Runner's also been composing some seriously good running EDM beats. I have his album on my spotify playlist.
Great idea for a video and very well executed. That’s an awful lot of videos you’ve watched!! Thanks
Yeah for a while it seemed never ending but wanted to include all the channels I could think of and indeed regularly watch.
I suspect the influence of shoe reviewers is overated, outwith the bubble.
To give an example I heard a TH-cam'r complaining about the idea of being encouraged to get new shoes every few hundred miles because 'his lasted for ages'. ... the guy probably weighed 140 lbs and the vast majority of joggers/gym goers will have 60 lbs on him.
Nike seem to have a good strategy - when you see the pros running and consistently training in their shoes then it's a strong selling point to demonstrate that they work.
Yeah be interesting to know exactly how much "influence" influencers actually have. It is a very "modern" way of advertising by getting "runners" who often have limited running ability themselves showcasing shoes seemingly designed for elite athletes first and foremost. After all the "traditional" way has always been getting the "best" to use a product in the hope it influences us to be like them by using the same kit. I guess these days I am probably, even without really acknowledging it, influenced by "anybody" using a product so maybe it "sort of" works.
@TimGrose it's a good question and one I'd need to look into. Have you noticed though that Brooks seem to be in almost every parkrun email? I'm not sure if they sponsor them or not - but sounds a really good idea to get your product out to the general population.
Edit: I've never owned brooks but I've had 2 invites to test their shoes on a 5K run which due to other commitments I've never went - no doubt I'd buy the pair at the end.
I'd love any form of collaboration between you and Chris/Sagasu Running
Yeah hope we can make that work. Ball is sort of in my court right now as I have had an injury through June which is persisting so being able to talk about say how the SL2 is for long runs and/or tempo runs is a bit tricky for me right now. I can however tell you which shoes are good for hobbling :)
@@TimGrose Sorry about the injury, I know very well that kind of frustration. I wish you a fast recovery
Tim is it possible to see if any reviewer paid for a pair of On shoes? Testing a theory of mine!
Just one! Jason Jogs with the Cloudrunner 2. Interesting point - I have never tried an On shoe as never really been overly convinced. That said they have some world class track athletes that are off to the Olympics so clearly their shoes must "work".
@@TimGrose that is interesting, thank you! I think this is a point that's hard to pin down: favourable shoe reviews for iterations that people wouldn't buy otherwise. On seem really overpriced and the 'better' reviewed shoes are those which don't really have clouds in the midsole.
@@garethevans2499 Might be a topic for a follow on but Nike & adidas easily were the two brands with the most amount of bought shoes but ASICS, Saucony, Brooks & Hoka had more overall reviews than both with On only just one less overall review than Nike. This makes sense to me as almost always my Nike & adidas reviews do a lot better than any other brands. Logical also as AFAIK they are the two biggest brands. So you could argue all the other brands need to work harder to send shoes out "for review" to get noticed.
Long live Daisy! 😻
We worked out that we got her as a kitten on 15th July 2007 so she is as good as 17 even in "gotcha" years. I put up a picture on my Strava that day as she came from Wiltshire with her sister Maisy who sadly was nowhere near as robust. Was even back in the car when Sue went "on ahead" in my car as I ran from "nowhere" to her "somewhere". Anyway Daisy is currently back in her default position on mat beside my computer in the cabin. From there she looks out for Rex & Mittens (visitors from behind) and any sign of movement from me which could trigger the opportunity for food. She does have liver issues and even now is struggling with "special" cat food but seems to have managed some small bits of chicken so will see if that works.
Good info! Well done!
Thanks!
Reviewers are not good at testing durability. It can also be hard to test, I understand. But it would be great to focus on it. If you spend money on a shoe you want to know if it's good for 500, 1000 or 1500 km. It does make a difference!
I must say some of the comments on durability can sometimes appear rather pointless like I have run 20 miles in a shoe and great to see the outsole is still intact. Well it would be a worry if it was not! But otherwise short of some specialist channels that acquire shoes and then dissect them and subject to stress test not sure how you could really test that short of reporting back after many miles in a shoe. Personally I find it somewhat annoying to buy a shoe not to run in but to cut up for a video. Usually tells me nothing of interest to me. I personally don't really worry much about durability. I typically find me for me I am losing something in the midsole once start to approach 250 miles and I very rarely want to take anything past about 300 miles although of course many use a shoe way way longer.
Yowanna at least does 100 mile tests
One thing I wonder, are sure so many of the shoetubers do it "full time? Kofuzi has a few videos where he explains how much he makes .. and its not that much
He also replied to me when I curiously asked him why he doesn’t look at the revenue, which he stated in that video. He came back to me with ‘it’s not all about the numbers for some of us’ which confused me even more.
I was simply asking as it seemed he was in some way being reimbursed for his content and he came back with that really awkward answer.
I couldn’t tell if it was a flex or he has an outside job, so it’s not relevant
For context, I "earn" about £100 per month from TH-cam. My most viewed video ever (Peg Trail 4 GORE-TEX) with over 100K views "only" basically covered the cost of the shoe twice over and it wasn't that expensive relatively. I don't think any other video I have done has got close to even covering the cost of the shoe. So yeah if I extrapolate that to channels with say even an order of magnitude more views per video (which TBH isn't many) then it is not looking like amazing money from TH-cam alone. Best I don't give up my actual job then! I think the "influencers" who do the best financially have multiple revenue streams. Like say if a brand flies you out to a product launch then even if they cover the entire cost of the trip, I doubt if they are actually paying for your time as well unless you are "really" big. However if say you are hosting shakeouts in the name of a brand and/or doing PAs for them then I hope they get paid for such. Also, as annoying as it might seem sometimes, easy to see why some running influencers have to try and "push" certain products that may or may not be really running related in their socials.
@@that_which_is_notKofuzi had a job, his own company, which all but disappeared during Covid. He now does this full-time along with taking care of his kids. He’s married and his wife has a full-time job.
Well done! Sort of a Meta analysis
Thanks! And yes certainly felt I watched an awful lot of videos...
How do you determine whether a group, like RT or DoR, like/dislike a shoe when there may be differing opinions within the group?
Good question. It was largely based on the "average" overall view of a shoe. DoR for instance, in their written reviews, give A, B, C ratings with +/- qualifiers. So if all the ratings were A something, B something, C something it was "easy" and correspond to Like, Neutral, Dislike. When it was more borderline like one gave A- and another B+ I called that a Like. Conversely I gave a B-/C+ a dislike. With likes of Run Testers similar principles when I had to be more objective in what they said. TBH I can't think of any shoes where it was clear Like for one of the team but a clear Dislike for another. Some of the classifications here, in general, were a lot easier than others. If somebody really like a shoe I would have probably only needed to have watched a few seconds of the vid or just looked at the vibe of the thumbnail. With others I literally may have watched the whole video and still wasn't sure - perhaps because the reviewer was not either. Fortunately, I can't see too many comments were I "obviously" got the classification of a shoe "wrong".
Love this video saying it as it is im not going listen to people who run 8.30 mile pace in alphaflys they need real testing like all race shoes like u do
Thanks although right now with a bit of a foot injury I would be struggling with even 8:30s. Been doing a fair bit of run/walk in my Pegasus 41 however so hope to do a video on how I am finding it once feel might be useful.
One question that I found interesting. Did you ask them how many shoes that were sent to them that they did not review? I have heard that some might not give a bad review for shoes that were sent for free.
Short of mentioning in passing what I was researching to a couple of fellow TH-camrs and one question to MidLife Runner about one shoe, I didn't really ask anybody to sort of do my research for me as it were partly because I wanted to try and form my own opinion to try and eliminate any obvious bias and partly as there are only a few of them I feel I know well enough to even directly message anyway. Also I felt if I included enough shoe review videos (530) and enough TH-camrs (22) then any sort of "fixing" might just get lost in the noise which I like to think it did.
@@TimGrose great info! Appreciate all the work you put into the detail.
@@davidg9120 B_I_R is on his podcast basically saying he doesn't review shoes negatively. He'd rather not review it. Still enjoy watching him just not his shoe reviews.
Who polices the Police? Who nurses the nurses? Who teachers the teachers?
I don't know!
But who reviews the (Shoetubers) reviewers - THAT'D BE TIM GROSE!!!
Kudos.
Ha ha thanks!
@supwell, @sagasurunning including your channel Tim, are the ones I find the most independent and reliable.
Thanks! Out of interest though what do you consider as "independent" as I note at least one of those channels provides links to buy stuff that gets featured on the channel.
@@TimGrose Yowana is buying a majority of the shoes he's testing. He started receiving recently sample shoes for reviewing, but nevertheless, he's personally very much invested and doesn't leave a day without doing a run/making a video.
SagasuRunning (Chris) reviews and buys shoes he's personally interested into, and if the shoe isn't working for him, it's gone.
As for you, you're an accomplished runner, at 57 and such a great form, it's a rarity. Greetings, Tim!
@@smagic614 thanks although curently being sidelined with an Achilles/foot injury am startng to feel my 57 years but hope to get back to it before long. I was never quite clear now with Yowana how many shoes he is still buying. I don't think it really matters with him given the huge mileage he is able to cope with. As for Chris think it is pretty much like me. I buy shoes I think I "might" like but inevitably don't always - just like him. After all makes no sense to continue using a shoe you don't like, or worse, might give you injury issues.
Great analysis 🧐
Thanks!
Maybe those 1%, Tim, correlate with the 1% who dont use auto rotate... Its the only thing that makes sense.
Everyone knows the rules, Yowanda 🔥
Not sure I understand what you mean by 1% ?
@@TimGrose it's those crazy 1% that dislike your videos,Tim.
I'm suggesting they're not crazy, just upside down 👎
@@fergusdenoon1255 ah I see! Yeah they are very annoying…
When it comes to bias, I think you're just as likely to be bias towards a shoe that's been given to you as you are being bias towards a shoe you've paid for.
The latter is probably more sicceptable to sunk cost fallacious reasonong where saying its a bad shoe has you admitting you made a mistake, where the former is more likely to be a subconscious adherance to appreciation, thinking one is more powerful than the other is just falling foul to a fairness fallacy.
Personally I can think of the Alphafly 3, Ultrafly, Prime X2 Strung just in the last year or so where I spent a small fortune, said in videos I did not like them and barely ran in them again but just could not justify to my integrity trying to return "used" shoes. See what you mean though - I did "try" to get on with the likes of the Ghost 15, Zoom Fly 5 and did a bit more in them only to fall to the same conclusion. Maybe also I extensively wore the Peg 39, Peg 40, Peg Turbo Next Nature and now starting to with the Peg 41 to sort of prove a point that they are "decent" running shoes but I have more than enough shoes to not need to keep wearing ones I really hate! Can you think of shoes then you bought and used when really you would rather not ?
I’ve noticed those who pay with their own money are way more critical, and I’ve also noticed that every reviewer has their favorite company that they can’t help but glaze. Then there are haters like yowanna
Guess there is also a style. I noted say Kofuzi and Run Testers dislike as many shoes as say Fordy but perhaps more “obvious” with the latter. In a way when I hated shoes I bought myself can of think the “joke” is also on me a bit for not doing any research. Still can never be sure until have tried something yourself I feel.
I feel some 6:3:1 merch t shirts vests apparel mugs etc
Ha ha, it was surprising how often those rough ratios kept appearing.
Great idea.
Thanks!
With all those spread sheets just for running, i would recommend a new hobby like fishing 😂
Ha ha. Never felt the urge to do that but think I read once it is one of the most popular “sports”.
@@TimGrose I haven't been for about 35 years 😬 Spend all my money on running shoes these days!!
I've also mentioned to Fordy about his horrendous disclosure 😂 No need for it IMO, just a simple disclosure is appropriate and if viewers can't work it out then there is no helping them 😂
Must say I don’t really understand it as all I want to know is where you got it from and how much you have run in it. They are the variables shoe to shoe.