I love these videos. As a person who is a visual learner, these videos are gold. Not only do you display the rules as you break them down, you apply a video to help solidify the implement and intent of the rule. Keep it up!
@UmpireClassroom Do you guys have a video that explains why throwing to a base and getting a runner out on a failed tag up is not a force out? And since it is not a force out that means that should any runner that crosses the plate in the meantime would have their run(s) count. I appreciate it thanks.
This video was great. Thanks for making it. In the Nationals/Pirates play, I feel like the fielder deliberately and specifically stepped on 3rd base, and given the situation, I feel like that was clearly an appeal directed at R3. The fact that he was also trying to tag out R2 at the same time doesn't take away from that. It's interesting to know that other levels of baseball have different rules for this. The appeal after dead ball in MLB take it easy to take advantage of or distract from by the offense, which teams have figured out. That's fine, but I feel like every team should have a clear opportunity to appeal a missed base, especially if it was the offense who initiated the dead ball.
Love your videos, they're very helpful getting me ready for my upcoming HS season here in Nevada. Just took my test and boy are the questions written weird. Anyways, all the best to you guys this upcoming season!
The 3rd baseman touched the runner on the base just prior to stepping on the base or I suspect the run would not have counted. A 4th out would take a dead ball appeal but a 3rd out wouldn't. I think.
Scoring Question! How do you score a playing leaving too early from 2nd on a caught fly ball in a score book? Let’s say it’s 8-6 Or, what notation would one use for a dead-ball appeal?
In the Nationals example, in a rule code that does not allow for a dead ball appeal, could the appeal have been made after time was called had the defense not left the field? What would the mechanics be to put the ball back in play when 3 are out?
Nationals recorded out “ 3 by tagging R-2 while he was standing on third base. The Nats appealed R-2 left 2nd base early. Having three outs the Nats infielders walked across the foul line to their dugout, which ended their opportunity to appeal R-3 left early and illegally. The appeal on R-3 if done legally would have been the fourth out of the half inning, and would have superseded out #3 and negated the run he scored. Because there was no legal appeal of R-3 the run scored.
Thank you for these videos. Question on the caught line drive video. I understand R2 being called out on appeal with the tag, but with the third baseman also appearing to then step on third base, shouldn't that have be considered an appeal of R3 leaving early as well for a "4th out appeal" therefore negating the run? Could U3 clarified with the fielder for whom he was appealing at the time of his palying actions of tagging and stepping on 3rd?
U3 could ask for clarification, but F5 could have also clarified and failed to do so. The rule book puts the responsibility on the defense to make an appeal attempt known. They didn’t make it clear enough to U3. The only thing that matters is what U3 THINKS you are appealing.
@@UmpireClassroom I think what's interesting here is that we as umpires are using judgement to implement the rules but this is an instance where judgement could vary from umpire to umpire. I would have judged the appeal was obviously an appeal to R2 and R3 because he touched the base and the runner. I do not need to ask to clarify what F5's intent to appeal was because his absolute actions demonstrated it. Tagging the runner was an appeal to R3 and touching third base was a direct appeal to R2 (who ran home); if F5 believed touching the base was the act of the appeal then the team would have tagged second base to appeal R3, but that wasn't what they demonstrated. Overall, I'm new to umpiring and how I would interpret/judge the play/ Love these videos! Thanks for taking the time to produce them as well as respond to comments.
I'm interested in exactly thus because you're correct He tagged the runner a split second before touching the base. I have it 8n my own mind that the run wouldn't have counted if he touched the base first & then tagged the runner. I think a difference is live ball/dead ball, & that the ball becomes dead after the 3rd out, Which was the tag, Forcing the runner that crossed the plate to only be called out on a "dead ball appeal." Not certain, but would love to be certain of the details here.
@@craigtaylor6780 To be honest, I don't believe the order matters here in the Nationals example. Let's say that, for the sake of your example, the umpire accepts touching the base and tagging the runner as appeals on R3 and R2. Let's just assume that. Now, it doesn't really matter which is the third out and fourth out, because in OBR (and maybe NHFS but I'm not as good with those rules) the defense gets the most advantageous third out... or whatever makes the situation best for them. That would, of course, be recording R3 as the third out to take away the time play. However, I personally agree with the umpire in the MLB Nationals example. I think most ball players and many coaches don't really know that what we often call "doubling off" a runner on a caught ball is technically an appeal for leaving the bag early. It isn't recording a tag out or force out like other parts of the rules. It's something we learn very young as to how to get the runner out, but we never stop to think why the runner is out. It's because we are technically appealing a violation of the "leaving the bag too early" rule. It's just that we all accept plain as day that when you are trying to double the runner off with a speedy throw and either a tag or touched base with the ball, that obviously you are appealing. It becomes so rote, and no one ever breaks this down, so here we have pro ballplayers who get the ball, tag the runner on third and say "all right, three outs, let's head in". I honestly don't think they were clear, or even understood, this was a fourth out scenario and they needed to record a fourth out on R3 to remove the ability for that runner to score on a time play. That's what I think anyways... always curious what others think.
When "appealing" to the base umpire on a check swing, does the defense need to request this appeal or can the plate umpire appeal to the partner if he/she thinks the batter might have offered?
In pro ball and also here at the HS level, ALWAYS with 2 strikes on the batter, if I think the catcher may have dropped a 3rd strike with a swing and 1st base unoccupied or with 2 outs and 1st base occupied, I ALWAYS GO TO MY PARTNER FOR WHAT HE MAY HAVE! I want to give the catcher all the time I can to react by putting the batter/runner out or anyone else he deems appropriate......
I tend to ask automatically if it's close enough that I know the defense is going to appeal, AND the open-side guy is on the wing. If the guy I'm going to ask is inside somewhere, then I'm not asking unless the defense makes me. The other reason to automatically and quickly ask of is whenever you need a fast answer: potential uncaught 3rd strike, and check swing on a 3-2 pitch out of the zone with runner(s) advancing. in either case, it's acceptable and possibly even desired for the base umpire to voluntarily make a call even before being asked - but a crew ought to pre-game this if they don't work together regularly
If I'm remembering that play correctly, they attempted to, but, under MLB rules (which, again, are different here from the high school rules) it was not allowed.
They didn't. Because in OBR (MLB), they do NOT have the exception for if the play is caused by the offense or defense. So they could not appeal the left early.
I thought so. I was confused because the Astros initiated that play. That was very smart on their side because they apparently knew the rule whereas the Diamondbacks either didn't or simply panicked....
@@UmpireClassroom at about 4:12 you mention that other levels do not have this exception. true enough for OBR, but NCAA does have this exception as well: NCAA 8-6-b-4: _If the offensive team initiates a play before the next pitch, the defensive team does not lose its right to appeal._
In Case Play #3, when it says after the defense leaves the field, does this mean one defensive player or all defensive players have to be in foul territory for the defense to lose the right to appeal?
@@UmpireClassroom there are three outfielders and six infielders. The pitcher is the infielder given the responsibility to deliver pitches to the batter.
On case-play 3.... isn't the answer "not enough information"? The answer is 'no', unless it is the last play of the game, and the umpires haven't left the field, correct? Or is that 'or' in 8-2-5PEN supposed to be interpreted as an 'and'?
Took me a minute to understand. The question was assuming there is another inning or half inning to be played, but yes, if this were the end of the game, they could appeal until the umpires leave the field.
@@UmpireClassroom Awesome, thanks for the clarification! That was my understanding during the original discussion, but then I was confused during that question and afraid I'd mis-understood.
In case play # 1 - how is answer 5 allowed? I did not think you could appeal once time had been called? I thought the ball had to be put back into play after time out was called.
No. And they also do not have the exception for a play that is initiated by the offense. So in the Houston play, they were no longer allowed to appeal at that level.
In my opinion an appeal on R3 isn't needed. 3rd baseman tagged 3rd base which causes R3 to be out because he didn't tag up. No appeal is needed and R3 doesn't score. Inning is over and no appeal is needed for R2 either.
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
I love these videos. As a person who is a visual learner, these videos are gold. Not only do you display the rules as you break them down, you apply a video to help solidify the implement and intent of the rule. Keep it up!
Glad you like them!
@UmpireClassroom Do you guys have a video that explains why throwing to a base and getting a runner out on a failed tag up is not a force out? And since it is not a force out that means that should any runner that crosses the plate in the meantime would have their run(s) count. I appreciate it thanks.
This video was great. Thanks for making it. In the Nationals/Pirates play, I feel like the fielder deliberately and specifically stepped on 3rd base, and given the situation, I feel like that was clearly an appeal directed at R3. The fact that he was also trying to tag out R2 at the same time doesn't take away from that. It's interesting to know that other levels of baseball have different rules for this. The appeal after dead ball in MLB take it easy to take advantage of or distract from by the offense, which teams have figured out. That's fine, but I feel like every team should have a clear opportunity to appeal a missed base, especially if it was the offense who initiated the dead ball.
Love your videos, they're very helpful getting me ready for my upcoming HS season here in Nevada. Just took my test and boy are the questions written weird. Anyways, all the best to you guys this upcoming season!
Hope they help and have a great season! Be sure to stay tuned for more videos all season!
If your in the Vegas area can you tell Phil S. that Tommy from NJ says hello
Always very informative.
The 3rd baseman touched the runner on the base just prior to stepping on the base or I suspect the run would not have counted.
A 4th out would take a dead ball appeal but a 3rd out wouldn't.
I think.
Scoring Question! How do you score a playing leaving too early from 2nd on a caught fly ball in a score book? Let’s say it’s 8-6
Or, what notation would one use for a dead-ball appeal?
Thank you..these are awesome!!
Glad you like them!
In the Nationals example, in a rule code that does not allow for a dead ball appeal, could the appeal have been made after time was called had the defense not left the field? What would the mechanics be to put the ball back in play when 3 are out?
Could you add and review the 5th appeal play (Pirates vs Nationals)? I got the answer wrong but don't know why - thanks
Nationals recorded out “ 3 by tagging R-2 while he was standing on third base. The Nats appealed R-2 left 2nd base early. Having three outs the Nats infielders walked across the foul line to their dugout, which ended their opportunity to appeal R-3 left early and illegally. The appeal on R-3 if done legally would have been the fourth out of the half inning, and would have superseded out #3 and negated the run he scored. Because there was no legal appeal of R-3 the run scored.
Thank you for these videos. Question on the caught line drive video. I understand R2 being called out on appeal with the tag, but with the third baseman also appearing to then step on third base, shouldn't that have be considered an appeal of R3 leaving early as well for a "4th out appeal" therefore negating the run? Could U3 clarified with the fielder for whom he was appealing at the time of his palying actions of tagging and stepping on 3rd?
U3 could ask for clarification, but F5 could have also clarified and failed to do so. The rule book puts the responsibility on the defense to make an appeal attempt known. They didn’t make it clear enough to U3. The only thing that matters is what U3 THINKS you are appealing.
@@UmpireClassroom I think what's interesting here is that we as umpires are using judgement to implement the rules but this is an instance where judgement could vary from umpire to umpire. I would have judged the appeal was obviously an appeal to R2 and R3 because he touched the base and the runner. I do not need to ask to clarify what F5's intent to appeal was because his absolute actions demonstrated it. Tagging the runner was an appeal to R3 and touching third base was a direct appeal to R2 (who ran home); if F5 believed touching the base was the act of the appeal then the team would have tagged second base to appeal R3, but that wasn't what they demonstrated.
Overall, I'm new to umpiring and how I would interpret/judge the play/ Love these videos! Thanks for taking the time to produce them as well as respond to comments.
I'm interested in exactly thus because you're correct
He tagged the runner a split second before touching the base.
I have it 8n my own mind that the run wouldn't have counted if he touched the base first & then tagged the runner.
I think a difference is live ball/dead ball,
& that the ball becomes dead after the 3rd out,
Which was the tag,
Forcing the runner that crossed the plate to only be called out on a "dead ball appeal."
Not certain, but would love to be certain of the details here.
@@craigtaylor6780 To be honest, I don't believe the order matters here in the Nationals example. Let's say that, for the sake of your example, the umpire accepts touching the base and tagging the runner as appeals on R3 and R2. Let's just assume that. Now, it doesn't really matter which is the third out and fourth out, because in OBR (and maybe NHFS but I'm not as good with those rules) the defense gets the most advantageous third out... or whatever makes the situation best for them. That would, of course, be recording R3 as the third out to take away the time play.
However, I personally agree with the umpire in the MLB Nationals example. I think most ball players and many coaches don't really know that what we often call "doubling off" a runner on a caught ball is technically an appeal for leaving the bag early. It isn't recording a tag out or force out like other parts of the rules. It's something we learn very young as to how to get the runner out, but we never stop to think why the runner is out. It's because we are technically appealing a violation of the "leaving the bag too early" rule. It's just that we all accept plain as day that when you are trying to double the runner off with a speedy throw and either a tag or touched base with the ball, that obviously you are appealing.
It becomes so rote, and no one ever breaks this down, so here we have pro ballplayers who get the ball, tag the runner on third and say "all right, three outs, let's head in". I honestly don't think they were clear, or even understood, this was a fourth out scenario and they needed to record a fourth out on R3 to remove the ability for that runner to score on a time play.
That's what I think anyways... always curious what others think.
When "appealing" to the base umpire on a check swing, does the defense need to request this appeal or can the plate umpire appeal to the partner if he/she thinks the batter might have offered?
Not necessarily. Especially if you think they are going to ask. Sometimes, the speedy ask makes it easier for your partner.
In pro ball and also here at the HS level, ALWAYS with 2 strikes on the batter, if I think the catcher may have dropped a 3rd strike with a swing and 1st base unoccupied or with 2 outs and 1st base occupied, I ALWAYS GO TO MY PARTNER FOR WHAT HE MAY HAVE! I want to give the catcher all the time I can to react by putting the batter/runner out or anyone else he deems appropriate......
I tend to ask automatically if it's close enough that I know the defense is going to appeal, AND the open-side guy is on the wing. If the guy I'm going to ask is inside somewhere, then I'm not asking unless the defense makes me.
The other reason to automatically and quickly ask of is whenever you need a fast answer: potential uncaught 3rd strike, and check swing on a 3-2 pitch out of the zone with runner(s) advancing. in either case, it's acceptable and possibly even desired for the base umpire to voluntarily make a call even before being asked - but a crew ought to pre-game this if they don't work together regularly
Patrick, on that last video, did the Diamondbacks eventually appeal that runner leaving after the Astros runner was tagged out in that run down?
If I'm remembering that play correctly, they attempted to, but, under MLB rules (which, again, are different here from the high school rules) it was not allowed.
They didn't. Because in OBR (MLB), they do NOT have the exception for if the play is caused by the offense or defense.
So they could not appeal the left early.
I thought so. I was confused because the Astros initiated that play. That was very smart on their side because they apparently knew the rule whereas the Diamondbacks either didn't or simply panicked....
@@nnsqutr Thank You!!!
@@UmpireClassroom at about 4:12 you mention that other levels do not have this exception. true enough for OBR, but NCAA does have this exception as well:
NCAA 8-6-b-4: _If the offensive team initiates a play before the next pitch, the defensive team does not lose its right to appeal._
In Case Play #3, when it says after the defense leaves the field, does this mean one defensive player or all defensive players have to be in foul territory for the defense to lose the right to appeal?
All infielders and the pitcher!
@@UmpireClassroom there are three outfielders and six infielders. The pitcher is the infielder given the responsibility to deliver pitches to the batter.
@@UmpireClassroom your videos are extremely valuable. I like the new format of adding M.L.B. game video.
On case-play 3.... isn't the answer "not enough information"? The answer is 'no', unless it is the last play of the game, and the umpires haven't left the field, correct? Or is that 'or' in 8-2-5PEN supposed to be interpreted as an 'and'?
Took me a minute to understand. The question was assuming there is another inning or half inning to be played, but yes, if this were the end of the game, they could appeal until the umpires leave the field.
@@UmpireClassroom Awesome, thanks for the clarification! That was my understanding during the original discussion, but then I was confused during that question and afraid I'd mis-understood.
In case play # 1 - how is answer 5 allowed? I did not think you could appeal once time had been called? I thought the ball had to be put back into play after time out was called.
You are thinking of the OBR rule, however, the NFHS rules are very different when it comes to appeals.
@@UmpireClassroom OK - so in situation # 5 under NFHS rules - the ball must be put back in play correct? Thanks so much!
Incorrect. In NFHS rules, a verbal appeal can made only during a dead ball.
Is there a dead ball appeal in the MLB?
No. And they also do not have the exception for a play that is initiated by the offense.
So in the Houston play, they were no longer allowed to appeal at that level.
Where’s the quiz link??
forms.gle/KSttKZQcjX42vPkn7
As an umpire, how would you effectively tell a coach that they’ve lost the ability to appeal a play? Is “you can’t appeal that” sufficient?
@@markensign4010 just something along the lines of "Sorry it's too late to appeal."
In my opinion an appeal on R3 isn't needed. 3rd baseman tagged 3rd base which causes R3 to be out because he didn't tag up. No appeal is needed and R3 doesn't score. Inning is over and no appeal is needed for R2 either.