1969 Pontiac GTO Judge vs 1968 Pontiac Firebird RAII | STOCK DRAG RACE
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ต.ค. 2024
- 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge Ram Air IV vs 1968 Pontiac Firebird Ram Air II. Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race. Factory Stock Drag Race.
First car is a 1969 Pontiac GTO The Judge. The other is a 1968 Pontiac Firebird. The GTO Judge has a Ram Air IV 400 V8, and the Firebird has a Ram Air II 400 V8. Both cars have 4-speed manual transmissions, and both the Firebird and the GTO have 4.10 rear gears. Weight of the GTO Judge, with driver included, is 3642 pounds. Weight of the '68 Firebird is 3630 pounds with its driver included. There were only 239 4-speed hardtop GTO Judge cars produced in 1969, and only 98 4-speed Firebird Ram Air II cars in 1968. Hi Performance Cars Magazine tested a 1968 Firebird Ram Air (NOT a Ram Air II) and with an automatic transmission and 3.90 rear gears it ran 13.83 seconds @ 103.58 mph. Motor Trend tested a Ram Air IV GTO with a 4-speed manual and 3.90 rear gears and it ran 0-60 in 6.4 seconds, and 13.9 seconds @ 100.5 mph.
Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race (PSMCDR). FAST Factory Appearing Stock Tire factory stock. Super Car Drag Race.
Remember, both cars participate in the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race series, so please check out their website: www.psmcdr.com
Also make sure you find them out on Facebook.
The rules for PSMCDR are listed below:
For 1955 to 1979 musclecars built in United States and Canadian assembly plants with a minimum warranty of 12 months and 12,000 miles.
Any car running faster than 11.50 will be disqualified and will not have a qualifying time recorded.
Any convertible running faster than 13.50 will be disqualified and will not have a qualifying time recorded.
Casting numbers must be correct for the year and horsepower claimed including intake manifold, heads, and exhaust manifolds. Blocks do not have to be "numbers matching," but they must be the correct displacement. Overbores up to .070" are allowed. Stock cranks only.
All Engines - CR 1.5 extra points allowed over advertised.
The camshaft must be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed for the type of lifter (hydraulic or solid). Roller cams NOT allowed.
The valve train must be factory stock for the year, make, and horsepower claimed.
The ignition system must be stock, including the distributor, cap, coil, and wires. Points may be replaced with any electronic conversion that fits under the stock distributor cap.
The carburetor must be correct for the year, make, and horsepower claimed. Jetting and metering changes are permitted. THE CHOKE ASSEMBLY MUST BE IN PLACE AND FUNCTIONAL!
Cast-iron exhaust manifolds are mandatory and must be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed. Internal modifications to the exhaust manifolds are NOT allowed. Under no circumstances will headers be allowed, including those cars that came with headers delivered in the trunk. Pipes must be routed as they were originally for the year, make, model, and engine combination. Mufflers must be stock looking in design, that is, oval in shape. No glasspacks or straight pipes allowed unless installed as original equipment. Maximum muffler inlet and outlet size is 2.5 inches. X & H pipes allowed.
The radiator must be correct for the year, make, model, and horsepower claimed. No lightweight, aluminum radiators allowed.
The camshaft must be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed for the type of lifter (hydraulic or solid). Roller cams NOT allowed. Duration at .050" lobe lift must be within 1% of factory specs. Lift at the valve must be within 2% of factory specs. Maximum stall limited to 2200 rpm.
The transmission must be correct for year, make, model and engine of the car. 3-speed manuals may be upgraded to the correct 4-speed if originally available.
The rear axle must be of the same manufacturer as the car. Any gear ratio is allowed.
Reproduction tires or radial tires only.You are allowed to run tires one size over stock.
Factory wheels only.
Disclaimer: The Cars And Zebras TH-cam channel is a news channel bringing results/news of drag racing with added history of automobiles. All footage/pictures used were either captured by the Cars And Zebras channel, or used for critique purposes under Fair Use. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Who are you betting on for this race?
The black flowers looking strong.
The Pontiac 400 of course.
Da Judge!💥💥.
I lean towards the Judge due to wheel base advantage.
69
dear C&Z,
you are not allowed to ever retire. as a 60s street racer i live for these vids.
thanks
I'm a 70's street racers and I approve of this message.
The racing gods paired up this race, excellent!!!
Man this is legendary. Two pontiacs getting it off their chest. As a pontiac fan this is awesome!!!!!
I hear ya brother, I own 79 Firebird trans am
@@diegoechiveste502 thats awesome, i own a 78 Bonneville hardtop coupe with olds 403.
Both car’s were awesome but that guy in the Goat was driving the hell out of it.
the hole shot in round 2! plus those almost identical ETs are usually reserved for automatics not 4spds. the man can drive.
Brings back great memories! My cousin had that same judge, I had a 69 firebird, cruising Saturday night fishing for races, I never did see anyone beat that judge!
This was a lot closer than I thought it would be.....the RAIV's were hard to beat! Can't go wrong with either ride. Loved this race!
The RAII's were mid year released in 1968 and were the round port and predecessor to the RAIV, so they were no slouches.....actually Pontiac made them mainly to be drag raced. RAII's were around but then Pontiac released the slightly improved RAIV engines. That Firebird was just set up to race from the factory as far as suspenion and such, so no surprise it kept up.
I had a 1968 Firebird standard 400 cubic inch. It was unusual as it was a automatic column shift. The dealer knocked off $300.00 of the new price because it didn’t have a floor shift. With headers and small hydraulic cam and 4:30 gears it ran 13.00 at 109 MPH back in 1969 was was very decent for those days. It was driven every day. Car was a lot of fun. I can’t tell you how many street races I won with that car. Just to name some i remember 428 CJ Mustangs , 440 GTX several of them , 383 Road Runners , SS 396 Chevelles. Only car I remember beating me was a friends Boss 302 that was set up pretty nice with 5:43 gears headers and the Ford LeMans cam. I know what it had because he got that car from me.
These cars in the video ran great. The Ram Air IV had much better heads and were very rare.
Almost bought an orange Judge new in '69 but ended up buying a new '69 Camaro in Lemans Blue - just like the one sitting in front of this Judge - what's the odds?
WOW - those were some close races and great times! Props to both for running such rare cars. Thank you, as always, greatly enjoy these. A healthy, happy, and prosperous New Year! 🌮 🌮
🌮
@@CarsAndZebras 🍌
Couldn't get much closer than that. Great racing! Thanks Cars and Zebras!
In early 70's there were two in my block. A Blue one & an Orange one. I drove a 65 trypower to HS & love dem Pontiacs.
Two super rare and beautiful 3 pedal Pontiacs !! Thanks for the great video. Please keep em coming.
A fine pair of Pontiacs. Thumb up for bringing them to us.
What a great pairing! Can't say anyone lost here, especially not us.
A badass way to begin 2022.
Try and find a 340 Duster vs 350 Nova. That should be a good race.
The 1969 GTO Judge with the 400 Ram Air III ..made 366 hp 445 lbft. as per Pontiac specs...
Awesome video my friend! Beautiful cars and fantastic race!
Both are awesome cars. Very well done.
Dream cars from my youth. It was great to see them go head to head. I had a friend whose Dad had a Judge project car,, and I kept trying to buy it off him because he did nothing to it in the 5 years he had it. He kept saying he would never sell it. I would ask him about once a month and even offered to help him with it. Always NO. Then one day I went to his house, and it was gone. He sold it. I was so pissed. If I had bought that car in 1985, I bet I would still have it today. I used to sit in it and look out at the tach on the hood, imagining goiing down the strip and seeing the needle redline, then shifting. Wish I could have bought it. He sold it for $5200.00. Just think....
Excellent races, great video. Keep them coming Cars and Zebras.
Yep, when they blasted by the camera man like they were shot out of a cannon I knew they were gonna be running in the mid 12s. Both evenly matched, would have loved to see a third match.
Mid 12,s is really quick, WoW those two move!!!
Big time pontiac fan myself. Loved both of these cars ! My first car was a 1970 grand prix model j big block 400 / 400 turbo 3sp auto. GOOD TIMES ‼️
Beautiful Pontiacs for sure. Great vid!!!
It’s highly likely these 2 cars are not factory built IV and ll cars.. And 113 mph is 11 second horsepower with traction. These are purpose build cars.
Stock appearing
Sure, they’re likely blueprinted motors and the tires are certainly better than what they were. But there are examples of factory stock RAII cars running very low 13’s and high 12 second ET’s in 1968.
Those RAII cars were very fast.
The driver of this GTO is one great driver. Mid 12’s in a stock 69 Judge is faster than times posted by various sources back in the day, but low 13’s were run even then. Button down the suspension, get a good tune, add better tires and put a great driver behind the wheel and it’s plausible. That’s what this seems to be here.
Great looking cars. They sure do bring back memories.
I’d like to run it against my 68 Royal 428 HO GTO
Goodday C & Z,
This must be over 2 years ago the guy with the bald patch in the stands was a feature of your video's early on.
The Poncho gods must of been smiling for on that day, being in the right place at the right time.
Thank you for a year full of fantastic video's & all the best in 2022.
Stay warm here in Melbourne today on Friday midday it is 38 degrees stinking hot.
Your number 1 Fan in Australia
Louis Kats from Melbourne Australia ☺ 👍 ❤
HA! Good eye! Trying to use up some old footage! 👍
@@CarsAndZebras It sounds to me like you've been holding out on us... Why ya treating us this way? I thought we were friends!?!? 😃👍
In 72 I bought a 69 Judge RA lll 4 speed ALL STOCK with 49,000 miles, car was really nice for $1250 which was crazy expensive then ! Car Ran STRONG ! Today I have a 66 GTO 4 Speed with a 67 Poncho GTO 400 motor with an added 66 Tri Power & stock Tri Power Cam- Car Runs Strong - very reminiscent of the Judge ! Both cars ran 3.55 gears - tires Break at a roll in 1st & 2nd / no clutch needed - Lots of fun !
Congratulations and Thank you for a Great Archivable Video. Great memories 😂
I seen a firebird that had a weird 6 cyl. I believe it had a overhead cam.
Yep I owned one of those weird six cylinders! Yes it had a odd overhead cam very similar to the old datson 280z not a bad little motor, pretty quick for a six, especially with the manual on the floor, I took it up to about 140 mph, but it took about two miles, LOL, YIKES! No race car but at over 20mpg I used to shake my head at my friend's with the big blocks when they couldn't afford to keep gas in them!
Jay Leno has one. He made a video about it.
Great race 🏁 C&Z. That Firebird was lit up in 4th but a little late. There has been some BA races lately.
GM had some rules about h.p. and weight because Corvette must be best. John Delorean disagreed.
Mythos Allen agree ! GM Did everything to stack the deck in chevys favor when it came to the other divisions. The racing ban in the eary 60s was because Pontiac was winning in NASCAR and at the Drag strip and they didnt like chevy playing 2nd fiddle to another GM division. GM also didnt let Pontiac build the 64 Banshee because it wouldve been competition for the Corvette . Funny how that same Pontiac design became the C3 Corvette.
These cars are so close it comes down to driver against driver
My brother has a 4 speed 70 and he put aluminum aftermarket Ram Air IV heads, RA IV cam, and aluminum intake. That's it. That car is crazy fast.
My older brother owned a 1968 Firebird with the Ram Air 400 and 4 speed manual around 1970. Was the dark green with black vinyl top, no A/C and no power steering. One of the quickest stock/unmodified cars of all the guys he ran with back in the day.....
The RAII was the ultimate sleeper. No exterior badging or anything that could clue anyone in on the fact it wasn’t a standard D port 400.
The Ram Air pan was obvious but unless you knew head casting numbers, one wouldn’t know the difference between the Ram Air I which was merely a standard 400 outfitted with the Ram Air air tub and a slightly more aggressive cam. Even the intake manifold was the same casting number on all 400 motors in 68.
From what I’ve read, heard and seen, the RAII was every bit as fast if not slightly more so than the RAIV. It had the perfect ratio between intake port flow and port velocity and between intake port flow versus exhaust port flow. The RAIV on paper would be the winner due to higher intake port flow numbers and higher ratio rockers, but in reality the RAII cars were consistently some of the fastest of any of the era.
Truman Fields managed a 12 flat ET in 1972 with a bone stock RAII motor in his 68 Firebird running in A/S class. That car eventually ran as fast as 11.18 in B/S class.
This was awesome! Great Ponchos!
Love that you are talking again!! I had unsubscribed but am re-subscribing!!
Great runs! That Judge was serving some justice to that Bird.
That Bird did have both the fastest ET and highest MPH.
The driver of that GTO could drive. His reaction times were great.
Cars are so close it is a driver's race. Great racing.
This is why the reaction times need to be removed from this series. It's about the cars and not the driver's ability.
Love these racing videos and your comments 👌 keep it up
Pontiac did their homework. Beautiful cars. Quadrajets make good music.
Man I just love both of these, I don't care who wins!!
My friend had a blue '69 Judge with a 3 speed. Within a year, he rolled it on the freeway, so he Dad bought him a "70 Chevelle SS 454 with a 4 speed.
Dude is there ever a chance you get a 1968 roadrunner on the strip?? I got to see that!
As a former '68 Road Runner owner, I concur . . .
A well sorted out RA 2 is the king of Pontiac's.
Yes - Jim Mino's Stock 12 sec. 68 RAII 400 Firebird Quickest car at the 1986-87 Supercar Showdown - Won Final Race in 87 vs a 1969 Hemi Roadrunner both running DOT Street Legal Tires - Winning cars all checked in the Tear down 🏁🏆😎👍
Was that Peter from Family Guy talking at 1:32 lol!?
Awesome , Thanks C&Z
Love those GTO my favorites
Certainly demonstrates that unibodies are not lighter than full frames. I've had my fair share of both and was always dumbfounded on how heavy my unibodies were and really irritated by how they stunk on getting traction. I had my 7A for nearly 40 years and also found that the unibodies flex WAY more than full frames (crack along the sail panel.
That 69 GTO with hideaway headlights is heavier then that. Something stinks here? That R/AII bird should run low ( VERY low) 12s like 12.04 with 4:10s Mine does and it's a convertible
Let's go Firebird not being biased 🤣
I want both of these cars in my garage right now....I guess I need a bigger garage!
I worked on one today, same colour, same stripe, same Judge name, same engine, Automatic, different wheels !!
According to George Delorean, the RAIV was 445 hp with Dougs headers. It was the ultimate performance engine at the time for the street racer
That exhaust rumble from the Goat replaces Viagra . Good race ..
I had a 69 Judge,but a ram air III. 18 yrs old, didnt know squat about rpm...figured 7000 on the hood tach was ok!!! Had it rebuilt by Yankee Racing.
Great owners, love the dedication originality.
Rowing those 4 speeds. LOVE IT!
A friend in high school had a 68 ram air convertible fire bird 400. Wonder how rare it was? 4 speed, also.
Two of my favorites .
My Brother owned a 1968 GTO Mayfair Maze (like a pastel yellow), black vinyl top, Hide Away head lamps, 400 RamAir2, 410 Rear gear Hurst Dule Gate (actual Hurst badged). I think they were listed 366hp. When we popped the clip off it made 400 (399) horse Torks !! 35 extra hp !! You could also do a couple things With the timing and it added a couple more hp. He was running low 11s on Airplane fule !! That thing was amazing in 1984/85 !! Was it the absolute fastest car ever...No ! But if you fckd up one little bit. Marc had ya !! Especially stop light to stop light !!
Low 11s on slicks I wanna say. And headers un capped !! 11.40s ish
2 of the best ponchos made!!! Have owned my 69 gto 31 yrs...luv me some pontiacs!!
I have 2 68 firebirds and a69 gto (clone) so this was great!
Pointless comment but I need therapy.... After all these years I am hurt and surprised the weight of these 2 cars is nearly the same. What a race though! Fast cars that deserve all the hype they received.
This is what these 2 cars in particular each weigh. They are purpose built clones and weight is not a factor like it would be in Stock Eliminator racing
@@johnferris8723 thanks for the clarification! Exciting that it's even possible.
Love almost all if the Pontiacs from the 50 to the 2000s I have a 2001 ws6 trans am and have races that track many times. I would almost want to pull the twin turbos off to run the stock class. If they allow up to this year of car.
Beautiful car! Well done!
Real cool match up
All rise for the judge! The special great one from Pontiac.
Always wondered about a Ram Air 4 against a Ram Air 2. That bird would get that GTO every time if they keep racing. Would want to see the reaction times and 60-foot times as well. My biggest question is weight. My 68 convert 400 4 speed F/B went over 3,900 pounds on the scales at the track without driver, no way in hell that GTO is only 3,642 with that heavy Endura rubber bumper. There are many articles that state the 69 GTO was the heaviest of any year GTO.
Imagine how much better times with good rubber, instead of the old hard bias ply tires?
Clearly both cars are easily 11 second cars with some adjustments here and there .
Here comes the judge,order in the court.ok I'll have a large 400 engine ,4 speed transmission, 4.10 gears and um large orange paint scheme for the win!
Wonder if this car has the original carb with the restrictor tab in place.
Bring back Pontiac!
what ever happened to your Chevelle? there haven't been any updates on it in a really long time
If anyone in this day and age still thinks a Ram Air IV only has 370 Horsepower I've got beach front property in Wyoming for sale......
The weight just doesn't seem right. I have a 96 WS6 that is half plastic. The doors, fenders, nose, rear cover, and hood are all fiberglass/plastic. The only thing heavy is the hatch. It weighs almost 3,400 lbs. I owned a 68 and I know the metal body panels are thicker because I cut them. I know the doors are heavier. The engine is dramatically heavier. The seats and wheels are heavier. This just doesn't add up.
Seems to me thr 69 gto was meant for racing, my dad had a 70 gto ,my uncle hsd the 69 gto, when i was a kid in the early 80s my uncle would racr at keystone raceway hour so outside Pittsburgh whrre i grew up, brings back great memories of being at the r as ce track alot weekends, my uncle won alot of races trophies an all, but his one biggest adversary seemed to be the buick gsx and grand national
BOTH CARS ARE ... THE BEST OF THE BEST !!!!
THAT FIREBIRD IS REAL CLOSE TO HAVING NO PLASTIC IN THE INTERIOR
VERY VERY COOL CAR !!!!!
THE JUDGE IS EQUALLY IMPRESSIVE BUT I COULD NEVER STAND THAT NASTY CAROUSEL RED COLOR (REALLY LOOKS ORANGE) BUT THERE WERE A FEW OF THOSE 69 JUDGES THAT SNUCK OUT IN BLUE .... A BLUE JUDGE IS ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL .... BOTH CARS HAD VERY RESPECTABLE TIMES ....
I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY WITH EITHER CAR IN MY GARAGE !!!!!!!
THANKS FOR THE VIDEO ... THIS ONE WAS PERFECT .... ALTHOUGH WHEN YOU GET CARS THIS GREAT YOU JUST WANT TO SAVOR THEM AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE .... ESPECIALLY ENJOYED LISTENING TO THE JUDGE IDLE !!!!!!!!!
Back in the 80s and 90s....My Grandfather built and dyno tuned drag cars for the local track...He raced a 427 Corvette and a 440 Challenger....He always said those GTO's were very underrated and were always a problem at the track
THE JUDGE IS FANTASTIC EXCEPT FOR THE COLOR ... WHY NOT GO ALL THE WAY AND PAINT IT
PEPTO BISMOL PINK !!!! THAT JUDGE IN BLUE IS EVERYTHING !!!!
Ram Air lV GTO has the power advzntage but the firebird has a weight advantage!! I'd say the drivers are going to have to fight this one out!!...Now wait a second,same compression,a Ram Air ll same as Ram Air lV!? Firebird has it if the compression's the exact same!! I'd want the GTO,but i don't think it will win!!
Here come the judge !
the judge here comes the judge the judge decides the race not you and the judge's verdict where you lose can't argue with the judge's decision next case on the stand
I had a Firebird like this one but sadly it was stolen out of my sand-box.
I used to own a 1969 pontiac GTO. Judge.
great 69 GTO sound!
I was sure there would be a double DQ... b/c.. Pontiacs never win. Sweet race. I love seeing Pontiacs tear it up!
Good for the era
I owned a '67 four-speed fastback Mustang w/ a 351C that I completely balanced the rotating assembly and polished allthe internals, like rods, valve heads and combustion chambers and piston tops, that would have given that GTO a run.
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Love ❤️ my Pontiacs!
Judge same weight as a firebird?
Looking for this comment. It doesn't make sense these cars having the same weight. From the factory, the GTO was 300 pounds heavier. The weight with driver was correct for the Firebird with a heavy driver. The weight reported for the GTO would have had no driver.
ONLY because I know 4 sure.... 425 HP @ 5920 rpm --factory
IM NOT A GM PERSON BUT IF IWAS PONTIAC IS WHAT ID HAVE BEST LOOKING GM S
On paper it should be the Judge, and that's what I predict, but who knows?