Never too much Arcanum content out there. The spiritual attributes reminds me of the Riddle or Steel tabletop RPG system quite a bit which had a really interesting take on it.
Arcanum was the first game where I genuinely enjoyed thinking about how the char mechanics work, what they represent, and how to plan them out. Thanks for sharing these notes, it's great.
Yay Arcanum video! Fun to hear about these old design docs. The attributes in Arcanum are great. I like that you cant lower any under 8 unless background or race alters them. The bonus for 20 is a nice addition. The art and design is fantastic for the character sheet and everything costing 1 point is both fun and easy to plan with. Yeah 12 attributes sounds like to many. Im playing Arcanum currently. I do so love that game.
Thanks for the Arcanum content! Really appreciate that. It's interesting to hear that the there were plans for an even more ambitious character system. I've said it before but one reason that I enjoy Arcanum so much is that it was pretty broad in terms of its character system, even if it meant that it wasn't exactly balanced. Balance is talked about a lot in games and RPGs, and for good reason, but there's always the risk of characters feeling rather samey in many ways because the game is so concerned that it shouldn't be "unfair" to the player. In Arcanum, I just loved the breadth of it, and there's a certain sense of the game letting the player run free and wild a bit, even if it means you could come up with a crappy character so to speak. Frustrating but also very fun. I also loved that, right from the get-go there's a pretty big split that you have to take into account, that being magic vs tech.
You've probably heard this a thousand times, but thank you so much for your work on Fallout. The first game remains one of my favourites of all time and it has been an inspiration for my writing, particularly in the sense of how to build a convincing setting that feels real while still integrating some weird and pretty fantastical ideas. The series as a whole is very dear to me and I'm really glad to see content like this, all about the creative process. Instant subscriber here :p
Same here, Tim is something like a god to me. Fallout series and especialyl the first 3 games changed my live when I was a teen and followed me through my life until now. I am probably the only one who had a custom Vault 13 t-shirt made back in the 90s in our little city. I was so proud of it, but most of the people didn't know what it means. Fallout holds the most special place in my heart.
Im playing through Fallout 1 for the first time currently. Im about 5 hours in an wow. The atmosphere is perfect. It makes you feel so small and insignificant at the beginning of the game
@@TokinTerrapin The problem is you are flooding Tim's comment section with senseless comments, but in first days and weeks it was a place for information and experience exchange for developers and all others with Tim Cain.
@@-Zakhiel- The problem is you are flooding Tim's comment section with senseless comments, but in first days and weeks it was a place for information and experience exchange for developers and all others with Tim Cain.
Interesting. I was listening to your videos in the background as I fumbled out a stat system for my current project, using mind / body / will as a baseline. Which neatly lines up with the three layers of my world (physical, virtual & psychological). I ended up with only 7 derrived stats / skills but since my entire stat system is based on player action, not points, this works out just fine. There are skill checks against the derrived stats (usually as dialog components or in combat) and the base (in this case: computed from stats) attribs drive what I'd call "player agency" options. So the stat checks are reactive to things the player or others do (i.e. taking damage, dialog replies, access a new dialog tree) while the attribute checks allow the player to initiate actions (propose a plan, take the initiative, open a door, hack something, etc). Due to my entire world & game concept being built on a mind / body / will trifecta the system will most likely stay as it's rather thematic, though obviously a lot of tweaking will be in order. Just found it interesting that I ended up where you started, coming from a wildly different point of origin. My entire concept was: since I have no points to distribute, I need the player to easily intuit which attribute a given action might correspond to, and it's fairly easy to guess what will go to mind, body, or will, making that split ideal for passive character definition and keeping the stats rather low (there are an even 9 stats but mind & will each have an oddly counter-intuitive "temporary" stat that fluctuates wildly in play, each with a unique mechanic - mind is the odd one out since it's dynamic bit is tied to a player action). The result's been a weirdly lopsided but aesthetically pleasing system and the idea came to me while listening to another of your videos on stats. Odd how serendipitous moments like that can be. Oh, and thank you so much for all your content! It's so insightful and a delight to listen to. Edit: oh, funny. I was thinking of using a weighted triangle to simplify down character creation / stat assignment to a single click. Well, plus a second to pick a defining trait. But that's all purely conceptual right now. Might not end up with that implementation but... yeah. Funny how similar concepts lead to similar ideas for solutions.
Thanks so much for these Arcanum videos! For me, it was always THE Troika game and one that really stuck with me for my whole life. I know it doesn't get the fanfare of Fallout or even Bloodlines, but I have been waiting semi-patiently for you to drop more Arcanum stories, so I'm happy to finally get it :)
Dear Tim. I love your work and enjoy every minute of you talking about it. Also, spiritual perception is probably "Empathy". Thank you for everything, both great and small, you are doing for games.
I also was thinking empathy. It could be used for additional dialogue options (noticing NPCs' moods and inquiring them about it), for interactions with animals (maybe avoiding combat with animals in the wild, maybe having additional ways through quests via communication with domesticated animals in cities and villages), maybe even for buffing/debuffing (in cases connected to emotions and morale, like rage and inspiration for example).
Dear Tim - regardless of how many changes the system has gone through, the final version of Arcanum is close to my heart, and allowed my kid self to come up with the single most busted build you can start with in the game :D - Half-Ogre; - Ran away with Circus; - 2 points in Strength; - 1 point in Dexterity; - 2 points in Melee Combat; - Buy Rapier with starting money; You start with 20 strength, great accuracy from 2 in melee, and the rapier is fast as hell. Enjoy your terminator build (and you can bring your intelligence up in the first few levels, so you no longer have the stupid dialogue options once you arrive in Shrouded Hills).
Love the Arcanum content, especially when it is around character systems and mechanics! Thank you once more! I have so many questions I hope you can answer in a future video regarding attribute systems: 1) The video indicates that at least back then you were thinking even more attributes is better or offers more opportunities. The most recent work in outer worlds indicates a (team?) preference for a smaller number. I know the answer is more of a case by case basis and what the objective of the game is but assuming a chassis similar to Arcanum (with skills and other traits you can sink advancement in) where do you stand with respect to the number of attributes? 2) Attributes linked to skills or independent? 3) Should attributes be able to improve via standard character progression (level ups, character points) or fixed (adjustable only by gear or other special circumstances)? 4) How do you balance attributes? Josh Sawyer gave a really awesome talk on Pillars at GDC but I'm curious on your thoughts about it. That's all for now. Thank you again for this wonderful content and the awesome games you made. Cheers ps: The attributes structure and grouping in Arcanum is exceptional and most RPGs should try and group their attributes 😊
This is an incredibly valuable thing for me to learn from you! Many years back I spent a number of weeks studying Arcanum's stat system and created my own fork of it, trying to address similar issues. But, it got shelved when I realised that making a spiritual successor didn't seem feasible for me. "Who's even interested?" was my thought. But I still think about it every now and then.
I think that balancing the leveling and attributes system is more important for early and middle stages of game. But how fun it is when game mechanics allows you to push to the limits at final stage. Making your character absurdly strong that your enemies fly away when you hit them. It also makes you curious how far can you go with other builds and how the world will respond to this limits. It only lacks that NPCs still treat you as regular adventurer when you are demigod in most of the games.
For people interested in shape based attribute assignment there was also a recent game called Biomutant which had an attribute adjustment system that relied on navigating how your attributes are balanced in a circle area marked with 5 core points that correspond to attribute biases. A different structure can be found on the skill system of FATE table top RPG which uses a skill pyramid which enforces that given X skills at level Y a character can only have up to X-1 skills at level Y+1. It is a nice way to establish constraints through structure.
The thing that makes most sense for me when it comes to stats, one point raises one point of the specific stat, and half a point of any adjacent stats it has, like beauty would also tangentially increase charisma and so on, this requires some finagling but that's really the only way I've found that lets you have a deep stat system without compromising verissimilitude. It also lets you avoid condensing stats down to, say, one physical stat that governs both speed/agility/strength related things so people can still specialise more deeply.
I'm always fascinated by how different games address stats and skills. From your structured categorized Arcanum system, to the interconnected distribution of Bastard Bonds (not a game for polite company, but does some interesting things mechanically), to specific gameplay mechanics that have been uniquely fitted into the stat system- like Kenshi's toughness stat being an analogue for character level. Even though it's at the core of the very oldest RPGs, there's still so many interesting ways you can look at it.
I think a distribution system like BB's is one way to address the issues you were having with "min-maxing" stat distribution. By having each point you put into a stat slightly increase related stats, you can create a well-rounded character without forcing the player to spend their hard-earned points on stats they don't necessarily care about.
Great talk as always. I didn't understand the idea behind the "geometric stats". Somethin more akin to "Japanese stat wheels" that we see in eastern RPG games? One idea to use them is to not allow stats that are adjacent to be more than X higher/lower than the other. This way avoids the classic STR 18 but CON 6 type of characters.
The system reminds me of the DC Heroes RPG by Mayfair Games. The MEGS system had 9 stats in physical/spiritual/intellectual categories, divided in attack (in your terms DEX), power(STR) and resistance (CON).
I do like seeing the classic mind, body, spirit hypostasis/ontological stuff. Just like I like seeing the classic earth, wind, fire, water elemental metaphysical mechanics in game settings.
I’ve been writing a book, hopefully a series, and find it hard to really understand my thought/progress and just inspirations. I’d love to hear how you’ve kept such thorough notes throughout the years and how you find them navigatqble. I’m a poor note taker and find re reading things to be difficult to put together
This makes me wish we got a playthrough of Disco Elysium from you. Nothing wild, but just to get a feel for the way the game handles these decisions and the way a designer would approach it. The way the systems are interwoven in that game are just incredible. And it all comes wildly out of left field, especially once the skills start arguing with each other.
Yes I came here to talk about DE. It is a good example when the attributes look new but they have the same meaning. Having volition instead of will or willpower, makes it sound so scientific and smart. I think the presentation of the attributes played an important role in the game atmosphere, making it mystical and scientific at the same time. Very well supported by art. But besides the presentation, there are very interesting ideas of breaking down well known attributes into skills, which are still not external-world oriented like guns/lockpics/barter/stealth, but representations of attribute extension that are also the character persona's feature. For example, hand-eye coordination is a subdivision of motorics/agility, logic and rhetoric are extension of intelligence, and so on. I think this model allows the game world to be more open because it does not restrict the character to specific actions like disarm traps, pick a lock and such. You can invent any interaction with the world and map it to the most relevant character features. And of course the psyche attributes are uncommon things that add a whole new dimension to the character allowing to reflect on external world event.
On the topic of your idea for a "Shapes" system for stats: Have you ever played/heard of Panzer Dragoon Saga? That game has a mechanic in which you can shift your dragon's form gradually. It's represented by a point you can move within a circle matrix, with the four "corners" of the circle representing the four major stats. And not just the edge of the circle, but all the space within it. If that was too confusing of an explanation: There's a video titled "Panzer Dragoon Saga - All Dragon Forms/Types" that showcases the system pretty well.
Without adding in "psychic abilities", spiritual perception can still be the direct perception of emotion, intention and of the influence and existence of spiritual beings. It can also be the direct perception of something's moral value (usable both by evil and good characters for their respective purposes!), or how someone may be emotionally affected by an action, or how they are emotionally affected by an action.
This trinity of attributes sounds interesting, spiritual especially seeing how much gods/spirituality were prominent during the game (Virgil and Dante being priest companions, Panari religion and "Mazzerin's Mystery"). Although with so many it would be problematic what to choose (reminds of Fallout 4 with so many things to spent the skill points and many of them were not useful and just added to fill the blank). One thing with attributes/skills I miss from Arcanum is bunch of Magic Skills, opposed to technology skills. Anyways, its great to hear about Arcanum :) My question for today, what's the explanation for our Elf race character, how he/she don't know about the location of Quintarra? We need location of this settlement for quest and one elf did say that every elf knows the location of Quintarra (one in Stillwater). I did found that weird.
Maybe the way to restrain the min-max mentality is with a sistem that entangles similar atributes into a network. For example: Strenght is in the same net as Endurance and Constitution, if you lower Strenght under a certain number, lets say 6 it will lower endurance by 1 point. If you bring up Constitution above 10 points it will bring up Endurance by 1 and on top of this, having endurance by 10 it will not only bring Strenght by 1 point up but also will raise the Strenght cap (lets say 15) to 18 so you can now bring up Strenght above the normal limit. My point is that there is no need for a super system that artificially caps the intended posibilities for the characters, because the players will end up fighting the system instead of using it. But a middle ground between fredom and restrain can be achieved by limiting or expanding by certain small amounts that DO HAVE an impact in the game itself.
Hey Tim, could you talk about The Void from Arcanum? It was always such a mysterious area. I’m curious what the backstory of the place is, how you guys came up with it, and if there was any plans to use it in future games. Congrats of the channel's success by the way.
Add a separate random encounter table of negative events that happens only to characters who have dumped a particular attribute. Dumb characters find they are frequently being scammed, uncharismatic characters are frequently being mistaken for criminals or beasts and being attacked by guards, unlucky characters might get events from any table.
7:00 -- Just thinking out loud: I'm not a fan of tying such restrictions/bonuses to race/class, since oftentimes you DO want to play unconventional builds (e.g. a smart ogre or an ugly elf). In my opinion, this is something character backgrounds are perfect for (I can't imagine a good reason to pick the Sickly background and then dump all of your attribute points into Constitution). I believe in one of your previous videos you mentioned Arcanum 2 was supposed to have three separate types of backgrounds. I think this system could work really well if you throw away the restrictions tied to the character's race and add up the restrictions from their three backgrounds. Would make for some pretty unique builds.
Love your videos Hands! WA isn't working after software update and waiting for a new update. Can't think of where else to message you?! Not dropped off face of the earth, just waiting. Sending you lots of thoughts, daily 😊
I have mentioned in comments before that I'm working on a heavily inspired by Arcanum TTRPG system. I have tried to boil down the attributes to as few as possible, 4. Strength, Agility, Wit, and Will. This has led to the attributes to pull double duty when compared to other games. Strength affects how strong and tough a character is for example. But, I really just wanted to comment how much I love using wit instead of intelligence.
Hey Tim. I love the game Tyranny, enough for it to contend as my favourite Obsidian game and I'm begging for a sequel. That said, would you have any interest in making a video about the magic system in the game?
I think for most programmers, it's very difficult to design "magic" or "paranormal", that is just because the nature of our work make it so that we are very concerned about what is real and what is not. What is true and what is false and how exactly it works.
Spiritual (mental, non-intelligence) perception is intuition. The ability to make good guesses that have no clear basis in experience or observation. Mental perception is introspection/metacognition. The ability to perceive information about information itself. Perception being a combined sight/sound (and vibration etc) stat is fine, you just use perks to differentiate them (eg a blind perk that eliminates sight but doubles range/success for sound).
I wish Tim could make a review of Disco Elysium system, cause to me it sounds like the guys solved this puzzle that he's been talking about. They even made an extra category, so I think it may be a nice comparison.
Instead of "buying" points I image a system of "borrowing" points and attributes are paired with each other at the end of a stick where player can shift to the left or to the right
Tim! Since Microsoft owns the Arcanum IP, do you think that we will ever see a sequel to Arcanum, similar to Fallout 3 in terms of development and publishing (though, it would be developed by a Microsoft-owned company)?
If microsoft buys then then it seems likely. Like disney they just throw money at everything and hope something sticks, though they both are terrible at making anything truly good any more.
@@LTPottenger Clockwork Revolution is a possible Arcanum spiritual successor. Jason Anderson is the Lead on it and he worked on Arcanum with Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarski.
Interesting. Very reminiscent of the attributes in Vampire: The Masquerade (especially 4th edition, aka The Requiem). Perhaps that game was inspired by Arcanum? In case you don't know, that game has essentially the same 9 attributes that Vampire: The Masquerade has, and they're divided into 3 categories, Mental, Physical and Social, with 3 "natures" as you called them, Power, Finesse and Resistance. Do you try to come up with stuff like that (attributes, how they are categorized, organized, gridded..?) on your own for fun, too? If so, would you make videos about that? Ideas that you had for this and that, for fundamental systems like those...
One thing which really annoyed me in Arcanum is level cap. I was going tech tree and there was one recipe I needed so bad. I dreamed of building that, I don't really remember if it was some super cool gun or some other thing. But I hit level cap just before been able to build it and it bummed me out.
That's why I like random roles or system that is largely based on that. Then you don't get a ridiculous character built and you usually have some stat that is not quite what you want for that character but someone else in the party can take up the slack. Also why I don't like games with just a main character as much as a party. No matter how you slice it one lone wolf can't do it all in a game and playing ten times is a good gimmick in many ways but in arcanum and fallout it's a little too punishing towards not picking the right options now you are just locked out of tons of content and unless you look online you don't even know what you missed.
Tim, maybe go with 3 attributes in 3 categories... Str/End/Quick then Int/Clever/Observation with Fortitude(mental str)/Empathy/Conviction(like Charisma and self-assuredness). Gives options without too many extra skills to juggle. Keep innovating! Otherwise, we should all just go back to chess.
Often times, once you start asking questions most attribute systems fall apart. I mean, in a ttrpg how do you even define intelligence? Unless you have some sort of "learning" subsystem (usually some roll to learn a skill) it either provides bonuses to nearly all non physical skills (GURPS) or is the designated magic/psychic skill (D&D). But it's so front loaded with stigma that incentivizes people to play cartoony dumbasses when they have a low (or even, sometimes, average) intelligence scores. In older versions of D&D I actually had characters, that would not benefit from intelligence at all, get themselves killed because there was this expectation that my fighter with like 9 int (which isn't capital S stupid, just a hair below average) would act like Groo the Wanderer or something. But let's look at strength? Lifting and Striking strength are connected but they are not the same thing. Someone who can lift alot would likely hit harder but even GURPS or Mutants and Masterminds requires you to go out of your way to separate them. Is constitution just how much meat you have or how healthy you are? Is strength or Dexterity (really agility) better for jumping? You think maybe strength would be the distance and dex would be how accurate you are. But if you can barely move how can you harness that strength to jump? Strength plays a huge roll in running speeds but if you put that in there without overcomplicating things than squirrels would be slow as hell. In GURPS should Health control HP like (iirc) it did in 3e or should Strength control it like in 4e? I like the idea of replacing attributes with a trait system. Like instead of strength you could choose to be "Wirey" which will give you some striking strength and make you a bit resilient, but it won't do much for lifting strength and you will be a lot thinner and lighter. Whereas being a "Big Person" might give you lifting and striking strength and make you really unable to be pushed around (more hp maybe as well), but you will be slower, easier to hit at a range ect...
not sure if you've interacted with Diablo4 at all but their skills system and Paragon system integrate spatial positioning in their skill trees. I feel that it work pretty well. Its not a traditional RPG but i think this type of system could work for more traditional RPG skill attributes as well.
I find myself replaying the games that offer me the most unbalanced options in character creation a lot more than the ones that don't. Offering unbalanced choices lets players create their own challenges and overcome them. Basically, game designers: Let us do the work for you!
IRL, IQ relates to most nerve activity. Perception, agility, social skills. IQ can be measured by response time and by putting hues of two colors in order. There was even a correlation with how much a person's eyes dilate when studying a problem. The most intelligent animals have densely packed cortices and a high nerve conduction velocity. In fact, these two values best predict intelligence, rather than brain size. The result is that parrots and corvids have better cognitive performance than elephants or whales.
A spiritual perception stat could be some kind of gauge of intent. Like the ability to perceive that the demon in the bowl from your undergrad D&D game isn't being honest with you. Maybe name it judgement ( maybe wisdom even though that's already a pretty famous stat from D&D)? I'm sure you'll find this comment useful when you get in your time machine and make it your mission to save the original 15 attribute system design of Arcanum.
11:27 People want the same old stuff in a new coat of paint, it's quite funny how they complain that things are "too new/original" as well as "not original enough".
> People arent happy weither with the old or the new Probably not the same people though are they? Your games tend to be (very justifiably) critically acclaimed, so it's hard to reconcile with the idea that people in general hate your decisions.
Watching these videos I wish I still had my old Arcanum save so I can go and check some things out. What I remember is that I found beauty wasn't that impactful and you could cover bad first imporessions with enough intelligence and charisma so I dropped it as low as it would go.
Good thing that third category didn't make it in, that would have been way too many stats. Honestly there are too many as it is, you could have had 6 or even 4. No one puts points into Constitution or Beauty.
Why make everyone happy, adding new combinations of attributes makes you think about how you want to make a characters, simplyfied systems are boring just because they are easy to figure out not because they are convinient.All to please mind numbing journo reviewer that just wants to get over with the game and throw it on shelf. Worst part if you already know what your character will play like on level 1 just looking at all stats once, no secret perks, no achievments, no descisions. Like in real life if you have buff muscled back you lose flexibility of that muscle group, i would love to see system where your progression actually alters all stats, not just one you want to level making it interesting.(like leveling nerdy stuff alters your perception, leveling same stat in row gives a bonus to leveling it but can unlock some irreversible traits that will make your playthrough more interesting, like permanent vision loss that you can even add secret quest to alter it or buy some cybernetics but not all of those can be fixable, like animal lover perk makes some particular npcs notice the smell in a bad or good way )
![Inventory System - Making a TTRPG From Scratch [Episode 29]](/img/n.gif)
Never too much Arcanum content out there. The spiritual attributes reminds me of the Riddle or Steel tabletop RPG system quite a bit which had a really interesting take on it.
Arcanum was the first game where I genuinely enjoyed thinking about how the char mechanics work, what they represent, and how to plan them out. Thanks for sharing these notes, it's great.
Yay Arcanum video! Fun to hear about these old design docs. The attributes in Arcanum are great. I like that you cant lower any under 8 unless background or race alters them. The bonus for 20 is a nice addition. The art and design is fantastic for the character sheet and everything costing 1 point is both fun and easy to plan with. Yeah 12 attributes sounds like to many. Im playing Arcanum currently. I do so love that game.
Thanks for the Arcanum content! Really appreciate that.
It's interesting to hear that the there were plans for an even more ambitious character system. I've said it before but one reason that I enjoy Arcanum so much is that it was pretty broad in terms of its character system, even if it meant that it wasn't exactly balanced.
Balance is talked about a lot in games and RPGs, and for good reason, but there's always the risk of characters feeling rather samey in many ways because the game is so concerned that it shouldn't be "unfair" to the player. In Arcanum, I just loved the breadth of it, and there's a certain sense of the game letting the player run free and wild a bit, even if it means you could come up with a crappy character so to speak. Frustrating but also very fun.
I also loved that, right from the get-go there's a pretty big split that you have to take into account, that being magic vs tech.
You've probably heard this a thousand times, but thank you so much for your work on Fallout. The first game remains one of my favourites of all time and it has been an inspiration for my writing, particularly in the sense of how to build a convincing setting that feels real while still integrating some weird and pretty fantastical ideas. The series as a whole is very dear to me and I'm really glad to see content like this, all about the creative process. Instant subscriber here :p
Indeed. You are a little bit late to the party, but better late, than never. Greetings!
Same here, Tim is something like a god to me. Fallout series and especialyl the first 3 games changed my live when I was a teen and followed me through my life until now. I am probably the only one who had a custom Vault 13 t-shirt made back in the 90s in our little city. I was so proud of it, but most of the people didn't know what it means. Fallout holds the most special place in my heart.
Im playing through Fallout 1 for the first time currently. Im about 5 hours in an wow. The atmosphere is perfect. It makes you feel so small and insignificant at the beginning of the game
And why you are writing this "critical information" exactly? Damn...
@@TrueNeutralEvGeniusbro wants to tell the guy who made the game how the game makes him feel. That a problem?
@@TrueNeutralEvGenius Sir, this is a comment section.
@@TokinTerrapin The problem is you are flooding Tim's comment section with senseless comments, but in first days and weeks it was a place for information and experience exchange for developers and all others with Tim Cain.
@@-Zakhiel- The problem is you are flooding Tim's comment section with senseless comments, but in first days and weeks it was a place for information and experience exchange for developers and all others with Tim Cain.
Interesting. I was listening to your videos in the background as I fumbled out a stat system for my current project, using mind / body / will as a baseline. Which neatly lines up with the three layers of my world (physical, virtual & psychological). I ended up with only 7 derrived stats / skills but since my entire stat system is based on player action, not points, this works out just fine. There are skill checks against the derrived stats (usually as dialog components or in combat) and the base (in this case: computed from stats) attribs drive what I'd call "player agency" options. So the stat checks are reactive to things the player or others do (i.e. taking damage, dialog replies, access a new dialog tree) while the attribute checks allow the player to initiate actions (propose a plan, take the initiative, open a door, hack something, etc). Due to my entire world & game concept being built on a mind / body / will trifecta the system will most likely stay as it's rather thematic, though obviously a lot of tweaking will be in order. Just found it interesting that I ended up where you started, coming from a wildly different point of origin. My entire concept was: since I have no points to distribute, I need the player to easily intuit which attribute a given action might correspond to, and it's fairly easy to guess what will go to mind, body, or will, making that split ideal for passive character definition and keeping the stats rather low (there are an even 9 stats but mind & will each have an oddly counter-intuitive "temporary" stat that fluctuates wildly in play, each with a unique mechanic - mind is the odd one out since it's dynamic bit is tied to a player action). The result's been a weirdly lopsided but aesthetically pleasing system and the idea came to me while listening to another of your videos on stats. Odd how serendipitous moments like that can be.
Oh, and thank you so much for all your content! It's so insightful and a delight to listen to.
Edit: oh, funny. I was thinking of using a weighted triangle to simplify down character creation / stat assignment to a single click. Well, plus a second to pick a defining trait. But that's all purely conceptual right now. Might not end up with that implementation but... yeah. Funny how similar concepts lead to similar ideas for solutions.
Thanks so much for these Arcanum videos! For me, it was always THE Troika game and one that really stuck with me for my whole life. I know it doesn't get the fanfare of Fallout or even Bloodlines, but I have been waiting semi-patiently for you to drop more Arcanum stories, so I'm happy to finally get it :)
I love all the dev shirts/clothes you have from your history in the industry.
Yeah, nice bowling shirt.
Love the consistency of the uploads ! Keep it up
Dear Tim. I love your work and enjoy every minute of you talking about it. Also, spiritual perception is probably "Empathy".
Thank you for everything, both great and small, you are doing for games.
Spiritual perception is surely spirituality
I also was thinking empathy.
It could be used for additional dialogue options (noticing NPCs' moods and inquiring them about it),
for interactions with animals (maybe avoiding combat with animals in the wild, maybe having additional ways through quests via communication with domesticated animals in cities and villages),
maybe even for buffing/debuffing (in cases connected to emotions and morale, like rage and inspiration for example).
I'm not getting tired of these videos in the close time, great channel!
I was the commenter that asked the beauty stat question, thanks!
Thank you! That was a great question
Dear Tim - regardless of how many changes the system has gone through, the final version of Arcanum is close to my heart, and allowed my kid self to come up with the single most busted build you can start with in the game :D
- Half-Ogre;
- Ran away with Circus;
- 2 points in Strength;
- 1 point in Dexterity;
- 2 points in Melee Combat;
- Buy Rapier with starting money;
You start with 20 strength, great accuracy from 2 in melee, and the rapier is fast as hell. Enjoy your terminator build (and you can bring your intelligence up in the first few levels, so you no longer have the stupid dialogue options once you arrive in Shrouded Hills).
Love the Arcanum content, especially when it is around character systems and mechanics! Thank you once more!
I have so many questions I hope you can answer in a future video regarding attribute systems:
1) The video indicates that at least back then you were thinking even more attributes is better or offers more opportunities. The most recent work in outer worlds indicates a (team?) preference for a smaller number. I know the answer is more of a case by case basis and what the objective of the game is but assuming a chassis similar to Arcanum (with skills and other traits you can sink advancement in) where do you stand with respect to the number of attributes?
2) Attributes linked to skills or independent?
3) Should attributes be able to improve via standard character progression (level ups, character points) or fixed (adjustable only by gear or other special circumstances)?
4) How do you balance attributes? Josh Sawyer gave a really awesome talk on Pillars at GDC but I'm curious on your thoughts about it.
That's all for now. Thank you again for this wonderful content and the awesome games you made.
Cheers
ps: The attributes structure and grouping in Arcanum is exceptional and most RPGs should try and group their attributes 😊
This is an incredibly valuable thing for me to learn from you! Many years back I spent a number of weeks studying Arcanum's stat system and created my own fork of it, trying to address similar issues. But, it got shelved when I realised that making a spiritual successor didn't seem feasible for me. "Who's even interested?" was my thought. But I still think about it every now and then.
Your channel is truly inspiring, so much good stuff, thank for sharing your experiences with us Tim!
I think that balancing the leveling and attributes system is more important for early and middle stages of game. But how fun it is when game mechanics allows you to push to the limits at final stage. Making your character absurdly strong that your enemies fly away when you hit them. It also makes you curious how far can you go with other builds and how the world will respond to this limits. It only lacks that NPCs still treat you as regular adventurer when you are demigod in most of the games.
Thanks for your work on all the Games you have made, and for your insights shared with us.
For people interested in shape based attribute assignment there was also a recent game called Biomutant which had an attribute adjustment system that relied on navigating how your attributes are balanced in a circle area marked with 5 core points that correspond to attribute biases.
A different structure can be found on the skill system of FATE table top RPG which uses a skill pyramid which enforces that given X skills at level Y a character can only have up to X-1 skills at level Y+1. It is a nice way to establish constraints through structure.
The thing that makes most sense for me when it comes to stats, one point raises one point of the specific stat, and half a point of any adjacent stats it has, like beauty would also tangentially increase charisma and so on, this requires some finagling but that's really the only way I've found that lets you have a deep stat system without compromising verissimilitude. It also lets you avoid condensing stats down to, say, one physical stat that governs both speed/agility/strength related things so people can still specialise more deeply.
I'm always fascinated by how different games address stats and skills. From your structured categorized Arcanum system, to the interconnected distribution of Bastard Bonds (not a game for polite company, but does some interesting things mechanically), to specific gameplay mechanics that have been uniquely fitted into the stat system- like Kenshi's toughness stat being an analogue for character level.
Even though it's at the core of the very oldest RPGs, there's still so many interesting ways you can look at it.
I think a distribution system like BB's is one way to address the issues you were having with "min-maxing" stat distribution. By having each point you put into a stat slightly increase related stats, you can create a well-rounded character without forcing the player to spend their hard-earned points on stats they don't necessarily care about.
Great talk as always. I didn't understand the idea behind the "geometric stats". Somethin more akin to "Japanese stat wheels" that we see in eastern RPG games? One idea to use them is to not allow stats that are adjacent to be more than X higher/lower than the other. This way avoids the classic STR 18 but CON 6 type of characters.
The system reminds me of the DC Heroes RPG by Mayfair Games. The MEGS system had 9 stats in physical/spiritual/intellectual categories, divided in attack (in your terms DEX), power(STR) and resistance (CON).
DND 5 has the 3 senses you wanted Tim - Perception (physical), Investigation (mental), Intuition (spiritual)
This is the second Troika shirt that's made me envious.
I do like seeing the classic mind, body, spirit hypostasis/ontological stuff. Just like I like seeing the classic earth, wind, fire, water elemental metaphysical mechanics in game settings.
I’ve been writing a book, hopefully a series, and find it hard to really understand my thought/progress and just inspirations. I’d love to hear how you’ve kept such thorough notes throughout the years and how you find them navigatqble. I’m a poor note taker and find re reading things to be difficult to put together
This makes me wish we got a playthrough of Disco Elysium from you. Nothing wild, but just to get a feel for the way the game handles these decisions and the way a designer would approach it. The way the systems are interwoven in that game are just incredible. And it all comes wildly out of left field, especially once the skills start arguing with each other.
Yes I came here to talk about DE. It is a good example when the attributes look new but they have the same meaning.
Having volition instead of will or willpower, makes it sound so scientific and smart. I think the presentation of the attributes played an important role in the game atmosphere, making it mystical and scientific at the same time. Very well supported by art.
But besides the presentation, there are very interesting ideas of breaking down well known attributes into skills, which are still not external-world oriented like guns/lockpics/barter/stealth, but representations of attribute extension that are also the character persona's feature. For example, hand-eye coordination is a subdivision of motorics/agility, logic and rhetoric are extension of intelligence, and so on.
I think this model allows the game world to be more open because it does not restrict the character to specific actions like disarm traps, pick a lock and such. You can invent any interaction with the world and map it to the most relevant character features.
And of course the psyche attributes are uncommon things that add a whole new dimension to the character allowing to reflect on external world event.
On the topic of your idea for a "Shapes" system for stats:
Have you ever played/heard of Panzer Dragoon Saga? That game has a mechanic in which you can shift your dragon's form gradually. It's represented by a point you can move within a circle matrix, with the four "corners" of the circle representing the four major stats. And not just the edge of the circle, but all the space within it.
If that was too confusing of an explanation: There's a video titled "Panzer Dragoon Saga - All Dragon Forms/Types" that showcases the system pretty well.
Tim, you have a Charisma Score of 20, to me.
Without adding in "psychic abilities", spiritual perception can still be the direct perception of emotion, intention and of the influence and existence of spiritual beings. It can also be the direct perception of something's moral value (usable both by evil and good characters for their respective purposes!), or how someone may be emotionally affected by an action, or how they are emotionally affected by an action.
I agree. Something like:
- Physical: Perception
- Mental: Interpretation
- Spiritual: Empathy
This trinity of attributes sounds interesting, spiritual especially seeing how much gods/spirituality were prominent during the game (Virgil and Dante being priest companions, Panari religion and "Mazzerin's Mystery"). Although with so many it would be problematic what to choose (reminds of Fallout 4 with so many things to spent the skill points and many of them were not useful and just added to fill the blank). One thing with attributes/skills I miss from Arcanum is bunch of Magic Skills, opposed to technology skills.
Anyways, its great to hear about Arcanum :)
My question for today, what's the explanation for our Elf race character, how he/she don't know about the location of Quintarra? We need location of this settlement for quest and one elf did say that every elf knows the location of Quintarra (one in Stillwater). I did found that weird.
Interesting to hear what does Tim think about fallout total conversion mods like Sonora, Nevada, Resurrection, etc
I love Arcanum! Please talk about the Half Ogre Conspiracy questline. That one always stuck with me after finishing the game.
Maybe the way to restrain the min-max mentality is with a sistem that entangles similar atributes into a network. For example:
Strenght is in the same net as Endurance and Constitution, if you lower Strenght under a certain number, lets say 6 it will lower endurance by 1 point. If you bring up Constitution above 10 points it will bring up Endurance by 1 and on top of this, having endurance by 10 it will not only bring Strenght by 1 point up but also will raise the Strenght cap (lets say 15) to 18 so you can now bring up Strenght above the normal limit.
My point is that there is no need for a super system that artificially caps the intended posibilities for the characters, because the players will end up fighting the system instead of using it. But a middle ground between fredom and restrain can be achieved by limiting or expanding by certain small amounts that DO HAVE an impact in the game itself.
“High strength, no endurance” sounds like a bodybuilder who never does cardio. He can lift 500 lbs, but gets winded walking up a flight of stairs
Hey Tim, could you talk about The Void from Arcanum? It was always such a mysterious area. I’m curious what the backstory of the place is, how you guys came up with it, and if there was any plans to use it in future games.
Congrats of the channel's success by the way.
Perception-Deduction-Intuition could round it up to a 15 attribute monster, it could be fun to play with with constraints.
Add a separate random encounter table of negative events that happens only to characters who have dumped a particular attribute. Dumb characters find they are frequently being scammed, uncharismatic characters are frequently being mistaken for criminals or beasts and being attacked by guards, unlucky characters might get events from any table.
7:00 -- Just thinking out loud: I'm not a fan of tying such restrictions/bonuses to race/class, since oftentimes you DO want to play unconventional builds (e.g. a smart ogre or an ugly elf). In my opinion, this is something character backgrounds are perfect for (I can't imagine a good reason to pick the Sickly background and then dump all of your attribute points into Constitution).
I believe in one of your previous videos you mentioned Arcanum 2 was supposed to have three separate types of backgrounds. I think this system could work really well if you throw away the restrictions tied to the character's race and add up the restrictions from their three backgrounds. Would make for some pretty unique builds.
Love your videos Hands! WA isn't working after software update and waiting for a new update. Can't think of where else to message you?! Not dropped off face of the earth, just waiting. Sending you lots of thoughts, daily 😊
Got your text ❤ But I can't text internationally! Will have to find another way 👍👍
FYI you just hit 1M views on the channel!
I have mentioned in comments before that I'm working on a heavily inspired by Arcanum TTRPG system. I have tried to boil down the attributes to as few as possible, 4. Strength, Agility, Wit, and Will. This has led to the attributes to pull double duty when compared to other games. Strength affects how strong and tough a character is for example.
But, I really just wanted to comment how much I love using wit instead of intelligence.
Hey Tim.
I love the game Tyranny, enough for it to contend as my favourite Obsidian game and I'm begging for a sequel. That said, would you have any interest in making a video about the magic system in the game?
I think for most programmers, it's very difficult to design "magic" or "paranormal", that is just because the nature of our work make it so that we are very concerned about what is real and what is not. What is true and what is false and how exactly it works.
Spiritual (mental, non-intelligence) perception is intuition. The ability to make good guesses that have no clear basis in experience or observation.
Mental perception is introspection/metacognition. The ability to perceive information about information itself.
Perception being a combined sight/sound (and vibration etc) stat is fine, you just use perks to differentiate them (eg a blind perk that eliminates sight but doubles range/success for sound).
I wish Tim could make a review of Disco Elysium system, cause to me it sounds like the guys solved this puzzle that he's been talking about. They even made an extra category, so I think it may be a nice comparison.
Please describe the testing phase for your geometric stats system, what did people say about it? :)
Instead of "buying" points I image a system of "borrowing" points and attributes are paired with each other at the end of a stick where player can shift to the left or to the right
Tim! Since Microsoft owns the Arcanum IP, do you think that we will ever see a sequel to Arcanum, similar to Fallout 3 in terms of development and publishing (though, it would be developed by a Microsoft-owned company)?
I think Activision own the rights, as Sierra is now part of Activision.
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968 yeah my bad, microsoft wants to buy activision for 70 billion USD, but has not yet bought them.
If microsoft buys then then it seems likely. Like disney they just throw money at everything and hope something sticks, though they both are terrible at making anything truly good any more.
@@LTPottenger Clockwork Revolution is a possible Arcanum spiritual successor. Jason Anderson is the Lead on it and he worked on Arcanum with Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarski.
Interesting. Very reminiscent of the attributes in Vampire: The Masquerade (especially 4th edition, aka The Requiem). Perhaps that game was inspired by Arcanum?
In case you don't know, that game has essentially the same 9 attributes that Vampire: The Masquerade has, and they're divided into 3 categories, Mental, Physical and Social, with 3 "natures" as you called them, Power, Finesse and Resistance.
Do you try to come up with stuff like that (attributes, how they are categorized, organized, gridded..?) on your own for fun, too? If so, would you make videos about that? Ideas that you had for this and that, for fundamental systems like those...
Oh man that Troika shirt!!
One thing which really annoyed me in Arcanum is level cap. I was going tech tree and there was one recipe I needed so bad. I dreamed of building that, I don't really remember if it was some super cool gun or some other thing. But I hit level cap just before been able to build it and it bummed me out.
Love Arcanum
That's why I like random roles or system that is largely based on that. Then you don't get a ridiculous character built and you usually have some stat that is not quite what you want for that character but someone else in the party can take up the slack. Also why I don't like games with just a main character as much as a party. No matter how you slice it one lone wolf can't do it all in a game and playing ten times is a good gimmick in many ways but in arcanum and fallout it's a little too punishing towards not picking the right options now you are just locked out of tons of content and unless you look online you don't even know what you missed.
Very interesting. In the unreleased Demo there is not even a hint on that. I guess already was changed.
Tim, maybe go with 3 attributes in 3 categories... Str/End/Quick then Int/Clever/Observation with Fortitude(mental str)/Empathy/Conviction(like Charisma and self-assuredness). Gives options without too many extra skills to juggle. Keep innovating! Otherwise, we should all just go back to chess.
Often times, once you start asking questions most attribute systems fall apart. I mean, in a ttrpg how do you even define intelligence? Unless you have some sort of "learning" subsystem (usually some roll to learn a skill) it either provides bonuses to nearly all non physical skills (GURPS) or is the designated magic/psychic skill (D&D). But it's so front loaded with stigma that incentivizes people to play cartoony dumbasses when they have a low (or even, sometimes, average) intelligence scores. In older versions of D&D I actually had characters, that would not benefit from intelligence at all, get themselves killed because there was this expectation that my fighter with like 9 int (which isn't capital S stupid, just a hair below average) would act like Groo the Wanderer or something.
But let's look at strength? Lifting and Striking strength are connected but they are not the same thing. Someone who can lift alot would likely hit harder but even GURPS or Mutants and Masterminds requires you to go out of your way to separate them. Is constitution just how much meat you have or how healthy you are? Is strength or Dexterity (really agility) better for jumping? You think maybe strength would be the distance and dex would be how accurate you are. But if you can barely move how can you harness that strength to jump? Strength plays a huge roll in running speeds but if you put that in there without overcomplicating things than squirrels would be slow as hell. In GURPS should Health control HP like (iirc) it did in 3e or should Strength control it like in 4e?
I like the idea of replacing attributes with a trait system. Like instead of strength you could choose to be "Wirey" which will give you some striking strength and make you a bit resilient, but it won't do much for lifting strength and you will be a lot thinner and lighter. Whereas being a "Big Person" might give you lifting and striking strength and make you really unable to be pushed around (more hp maybe as well), but you will be slower, easier to hit at a range ect...
8:48 Intuition?
not sure if you've interacted with Diablo4 at all but their skills system and Paragon system integrate spatial positioning in their skill trees. I feel that it work pretty well. Its not a traditional RPG but i think this type of system could work for more traditional RPG skill attributes as well.
I find myself replaying the games that offer me the most unbalanced options in character creation a lot more than the ones that don't. Offering unbalanced choices lets players create their own challenges and overcome them. Basically, game designers: Let us do the work for you!
What's your Favorite Fallout Mod?
Hmmm, how about "Intuition" as the Spiritual side of Perception?
IRL, IQ relates to most nerve activity. Perception, agility, social skills. IQ can be measured by response time and by putting hues of two colors in order. There was even a correlation with how much a person's eyes dilate when studying a problem. The most intelligent animals have densely packed cortices and a high nerve conduction velocity. In fact, these two values best predict intelligence, rather than brain size. The result is that parrots and corvids have better cognitive performance than elephants or whales.
A spiritual perception stat could be some kind of gauge of intent. Like the ability to perceive that the demon in the bowl from your undergrad D&D game isn't being honest with you. Maybe name it judgement ( maybe wisdom even though that's already a pretty famous stat from D&D)?
I'm sure you'll find this comment useful when you get in your time machine and make it your mission to save the original 15 attribute system design of Arcanum.
I love you tim. Like for real have my babies man. :) cool video like always.
11:27 People want the same old stuff in a new coat of paint, it's quite funny how they complain that things are "too new/original" as well as "not original enough".
> People arent happy weither with the old or the new
Probably not the same people though are they? Your games tend to be (very justifiably) critically acclaimed, so it's hard to reconcile with the idea that people in general hate your decisions.
Watching these videos I wish I still had my old Arcanum save so I can go and check some things out. What I remember is that I found beauty wasn't that impactful and you could cover bad first imporessions with enough intelligence and charisma so I dropped it as low as it would go.
I should play arcanum and see what's about
Tiiiiimmmmm!!!!
Good thing that third category didn't make it in, that would have been way too many stats. Honestly there are too many as it is, you could have had 6 or even 4. No one puts points into Constitution or Beauty.
Why make everyone happy, adding new combinations of attributes makes you think about how you want to make a characters, simplyfied systems are boring just because they are easy to figure out not because they are convinient.All to please mind numbing journo reviewer that just wants to get over with the game and throw it on shelf. Worst part if you already know what your character will play like on level 1 just looking at all stats once, no secret perks, no achievments, no descisions. Like in real life if you have buff muscled back you lose flexibility of that muscle group, i would love to see system where your progression actually alters all stats, not just one you want to level making it interesting.(like leveling nerdy stuff alters your perception, leveling same stat in row gives a bonus to leveling it but can unlock some irreversible traits that will make your playthrough more interesting, like permanent vision loss that you can even add secret quest to alter it or buy some cybernetics but not all of those can be fixable, like animal lover perk makes some particular npcs notice the smell in a bad or good way )
being a Night Owl means I get to be first to Tim's videos.
In EST they come out around 10 am
Europe here, enjoying it in the afternoon.
They come out at like 3pm for me
11am!
does that bring you some sort of fulfillment in life? yipes
I find beuty kind of needless and stupid just like perception
Spot trap and perception should merge together imo
You need perception to shoot