I remember buying a Pentium M based laptop on 2005 and being completely blown away by how much it could do at such a low frequency (1,6 Ghz). Compared to my old desktop, it would encode MP3 so fast that I thought the program had bugged out and just written blank files instead.
Yes, but that was 2005, one or 2 years was really a difference back in the day. People know judge Pentium 4 not fairly, because they don't see whole story and what was actually available in that time.
@@PidalinThe problem was that the Pentium 4 was as fast as if the branch prediction worked but (as the benchmark showed) even significantly slower than the Pentium 3 if the branch prediction did not work for the task and the whole pipeline had to be rebuilt wasting cycles. And to get this you were asked to invest in not only a new board and CPU but also new RAM and PSU so almost a whole new PC that is sometimes slower than the CPU that it replaces. The first P4 laptops had battery run times of about 2 hours which was good ironically because you'd have gone crazy if the fan ran any longer. That was why people judged it poorly.
@@Pidalin Williamette with SD RAM or RD RAM was a disaster. At the time, Athlon had been available for a while already and those were faster than that. The reason intel didn't have anything better at the time is.. well because they were busy with this piece of crap. The reason they eventually ditched netburst completely was because netburst was crap.
The thing that I find most interesting about the P4 was that AMD showed that frequency wasn't the be all and end all in CPU performance. While the P4 eventually outpaced the Athlon XP, the Athlon 64 came along and beat the P4 soundly in most things with only 2/3rds of the actual frequency. Then in a fit of insanity AMD somehow thought that emulating the P4 thinking was a good idea and we got the unmitigated failure of FX, which when first introduced had the very same comparison to phenom 2 as we see here with this P4vP3 comparison. While FX pulled ahead of phenom2 it did so only because of the higher clock speeds at introduction, but because people were overclocking phenom 2's up to 4GHz (because they could), the initial FX bulldozers couldn't really compete well against the processors they were replacing (one can only wonder what a phenom 3 might have been like, especially an 8 core).
I was actually shocked and very disappointed when those Faildozers came out... the FX-4100 at 3.6GHz performed just about the same as a (very mildly by core2 standards) overclocked Core 2 Quad Q6600 at 3GHz... an almost 5 year old CPU at the time of the FX release. Not to mention any Sandy Bridge CPU from the same year beat the sh*t out of the so called equivalent FX CPU. WTF were they thinking with that whole FX lineup?! It's no wonder why you still occasionally see people with heavily overclocked Sandy Bridge setups from back in 2011 (same year as the FX), but all the FXes (along with all the underperforming-when-new FM1 and FM2 trash) have long since moved to the scrap pile
@@Knaeckebrotsaege AMD was hoping the software would catch up to the hardware. Finewine and all. If you think about it, it did. The extra cores make the FX 8 cores relevant for 1080p 60Hz gaming even today.
I was still young enough in 2011 when bulldozer came out where I could see myself leaning into fanboyism toward AMD. It was the absolute failure of those benchmarks that fated day day in fall 2011 that my bastions of fanboyism finally disappeared (dramatic wording is intentional :) ). I knew I couldn't be stupid enough to try to support a bulldozer chip. Then a year later when pile driver came out and it was actually respectable in use cases I needed it for at the price point I went with the fx8350. I still have that fx8350 to this very day. Funny joke is that its been so long since 2012 that AMD has become relevant again and if I did build a new pc it would because AMD is legitimately the best all round chip and it would not be any fanboyism.
@@Trick-Framed Just recently a GPU scaling benchmark was released by hardware unboxed that shows the fx8370 cpu still failing miserably. Although I think I want to walk through that video again and see where the bias in game selection sit in the video. Oh yeah I think the vulkan/dx12 titles the fx system was actually competent. Its just even to this day the adoption of dx12/vulkan is not good enough.
@@pauls4522 Gamer's Nexus did one too. Except Steve Burke admitted his home PC had an 8370 and he kept his beast machines at work. It did well with a 2080ti....which I think most processors would...lol.
Heads up, CL is CAS Latency rather than Cache Latency. It's based on one of the signals involved in DRAM, the CAS (Column Access Strobe) and how many clock ticks you have to wait between strobing it and some of the other signals.
I had a p3 1000 and "upgraded" to a 1.4ghz p4, it was slightly slower in my benchmarks (use to load music projects up and see how many plugins I could run). I was very lucky the shop I went to let me return it and buy a 1.4ghz p3, kept that as my main machine until I got a Northwood 2.8ghz p4. Cool video
Amazing how history repeats itself. When the first Pentiums came out, there was much discussion about the massive 16 watt monsters needed a heatsink AND a fan. :D
Later with the Cedar Mill shrink they got thermals and power draw under control. They aren't bad, just came too late. That is probably what Prescott should've been. Released in early 2006 they were succeeded mid 2006 by the first Core 2.
Core 1 series in laptops is more of a updated PIII, as it still uses P6 microarchitecture with some changes. Core 2 series was a very heavy modification.
@@niewazneniewazne1890 Technically a comparison to the Pentium M/Celeron M (though those are noticeably worse) would be even more accurate. Even visually they look similar to socket 370 Pentiums/Celerons.
If you're wondering what the tiny brown slot is on the left side of the Pentium IV motherboard, it's a riser for the Kennereth Fast Ethernet adapter that interfaces with the ICH2 chipset.
@@gentuxable I tested the network risers that went in that slot at Intel. It was a network interface slot. There was also a digital subscriber line (DSL) interface available for it. Intel only provided the risers to OEMs for some reason (which is why you hardly see the riser cards)...ICH2 had a MAC (Media Access Controller) built into the chipset that interfaced directly with the "north bridge", bypassing the I/O busses (you could send and receive100 MB Ethernet at wire speed on these boards, a feat previously reserved for servers!). It lacked a PHY, or physical interface, which was provided by the riser card. Some motherboards used the ICH2 MAC and actually provided a PHY as well, so you got a LOM (Lan on Motherboard) on those systems. Intel created many more ICHx interfaces after this, but they discarded the clunky risers. Lots of laptop chipsets had an ICH-based LOM in them.
People speak about Tualatin now like about some god like CPU, but after Northwood core and frequencies like 2.4 GHz were released, Tualatin was totaly obsolete, P4 northwood was just much faster and ofcourse even more fast thank to DDR memory. I have Tualatin 1.4 GHz, so I can test it, I am not just using some old memories, so I can see all those myths. It was great architecture in case of energy efficiency, but RAW performance was already really low in 2002, especially because of SDRAM hellmory which were always problematical, problems with compatibility etc...switch to DDR was really a massive jump in term of compatibility. Jump to DDR3 later was pretty much like return of SDRAM, I hated DDR3, so many problems with them, unstability, blue screens. I mean mainly on socket 775 boards. 😀
@@Pidalin I recall quite clearly people have always been worshipping the tualatin even back in 2006 when I was using a Duron 850MHz there was many people in computer forums either drooling at the thought of owning one (Tualatin, not my Duron lol) or people who did have one and bragged it was magically smoother than the P4s even when the frame rates were lower. Of course everybody seemed to have the 1.4GHz PIII-S with 512kb L2. That said I do want one to complete my PIII collection. I have a 600MHz Slot 1 Katmai on a 440BX, a 1GHz Coppermine S370 133MHz FSB model and if I had a Tualatin 1.4 S model I’d have all 3 of the fastest model Pentium III’s on their respective process design 250nm Katmai 180nm coppermine and 130nm Tualatin.
@@Protoking I recently sold my Tualatin 1.4 GHz, it's really interesting piece of history, but I need to lower that number of computer hardware I have at home and I want to keep only practical things, which Tualatin is not, for some late Win 9x retro PC, it's better to find some decent Athlon XP with DDR RAM, Tualatin is weak. But frequency/performance ratio is ofcourse very good compared to some P4, problem is that after 2001, clock speeds jumped up pretty fast, to tualatin became obsolete pretty fast. Using some 850 MHz Duron in 2006 had to be really pain, I had still PII 400 MHz in 2004, but then it went pretty fast, I had a new computer (I mean not new, but new for me) pretty much every half year. 🙂 I had some Celeron D 2.8 GHz and GF 6800LE later 7600GT) in 2006 and that was already weak for new games because these celerons and Pentium 4s were bottlenecking these late AGP GPUs, you already needed core 2 duo in 2006 or 2007 to play in better quality. I have a lot of retro HW and I do many tests, I am shocked how poorly games ran back in the day on HW from that period of time, we are complaining now, but it was even worse 20 years ago, you had to play in 800x600/low to stable 40 FPS. 😀
One of my first computers was an old Compaq Evo D310 with a Intel Pentium 4 "Northwood" 478mPGA CPU with a 2.66 GHz speed and included a Nvidia Geforce 6200 GPU
I had a P4 1.4, used it for a file server. It was a total lemon for a desktop. I remember even the newer 1.8 P4 chips being terrible. At the time the hot setup was a Duron 1.3, which would destroy a P4 1.8, on average. You could buy a new Duron 1.3 for under a $100 Canadian peso's too. That was a really fun time in computers back then. 1GB of ram was over the top. Really great time.
What I remember from those early P4's was that almost all boards that come into the shop were dead, while P3 continue to last longer and longer. Athlon/Duron were a good option, but they were so fragile that any error would destroy the cpu die. Besides that? I miss so much the times that I had my 550MHz Athlon with 768MB RAM and a FX5200 128MB. XP running fast and I could even enable HQ in youtube (who remembers that from early days of YT?) with 30fps hahahahahh
High Clock frequencies are very important for the netburst architecture. I think a overclocked Tualatin to 1,6Ghz comes very close to the 2,2 GHz Northwood.
It does. Depending on the applications even on 1400 Tualatin scales between 1.8-2.0 on the Netburst scale. or as fast as a 2.66 GHz Northwood Celeron :D
you see you much the increase from 100 fsb to 133 helps the system? if you increase it further to 166 AND increase the clock speed the system gets a lot faster. not sure if tualatin can handle that though
GraveUypo I have max. tested 150 Mhz FSB with my 1,4 ghz Tualatin (1575 MHz). This frequency is still save for AGP/PCI cards. (75/37.5). I dont want go higher. Also positive is, that the last SL6BY stepping can handle this frequency with the standard vcore of 1,45V. In 3DMark 2000 (standard settings) and a GeForce 4 Ti 4600 (320/700), I get 12700 points.
My Tualatin did hit 1,7Ghz hehe, and I did it on purpose to overclock the PCI as highest as possible cause it increases the bandwidth to the Voodoo5 PCI Iv used. But back to the netbursts, there has been huge IPC improvement between Willamete and Northwood. When both run at 2Ghz in games the NW can be easily 15-20% faster. Northwood was arguable the only good Netburst CPU. IPC was OK, overclocking on the lower models was huge, it reached up to 3,4Ghz in the end, and then you also had the Gallatin variant with 2MB of L3. Prescott was a failure, more power hungry and IPC went down cause the pipeline got longer and the cache latency got much worse. Tejas got canceleed cause it was even worse than prescott, and Cedar Mill is just a die-shrink. It clocked high and power draw was massively imrpoved, but for year 2005/6 it was not good enough performance wise when AMd already had dualcore K8. And there is another thing, Netburst needs at least 256KB of L2 cache. If it does not have that the performance takes dive to disaster levels. The 128KB Celeron version at 3Ghz performs like K7 at 1Ghz at times, especially in games. Avoid the 128K Celerons at all costs.
It's worth mentioning that Intel's next overclocking gem around that time would be the 1.6 GHz P4 Northwood, which could easily reach 2.4 GHz (with FSB and SDRAM running at 150 MHz). As inefficient as the P4 architecture was, it still managed to outdo what any P3 could ever reach. I guess that would be a nice subject for another video.
Great video Phil! Today, I Found a Dell Inspiron 8100 today in a thrift store. Has a tualitin 1ghz in it along with a Geforce 2! Runs retro games on Win98 smooth as silk
One small correction, CL as in CL-2 is not "cache" latency, but CAS latency. CAS or Column Access Strobe is one of the signals used for DRAM control. The other is RAS or Row Access Strobe. (edit) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAS_latency
Just a slight correction Phil, CL on RAM stands for CAS Latency, CAS stands for Column Address Strobe, not cache :) Great video as always though, you're definitely one of my favourite TH-camrs and as much as I know, I still find myself learning loads from your videos :)
Thank you Phill for that video, I always wanted to see such competition. When i was kid, I’ve heard a lot of negative things about Willamette against Tualatin
Great video! Loved the detailed background info, really puts things in perspective. I remember being tempted to upgrade to the 1.4GHz Tualatin back in the day... right up until I found out my Via chipset board wasn't compatible. Couldn't afford a P4, so I ended up going AMD. Funnily enough, I never had any stability issues with the Via chipset, although I was running Nvidia cards, so I guess they were all running at AGP 2x and I never knew it until now!
Solid pronunciation on the core names. This is the first time I’ve heard BOTH tualatin AND willamette pronounced correctly by the same person on youtube. Well, you know, with an accent, tualatin in ‘Merican is “two all a tin”.
Not a native Oregonian, but I am a north-westerner with ties to Oregon. From what I've heard, "two ALL a tin" is actually right. I watched part of a speech from the mayor (or may have been ex-mayor at the time) where I remember he distinctly pronounced it that way as well. I have also heard "two AL a tin", though not as much. Could be I'm just talking to too many Portlanders. "Will AM it" is definitely correct though. Either way, not sure the ethnocentric disdain is really called for when Intel specifically named the cores after north-western locales in... "'Merica." That being the case, however the locals have chosen to pronounce the names of their towns (typically, in that area, being derived from a Native American word or phrase) is about as authoritative as it can get.
Looking back at this, I'm very tempted to try and run a Willamette P4 inside a laptop that presently has a Northwood P4 HT 3.2GHz (which is old enough to not have the HT Intel sticker)
Fun fact is that the Core processors were built on the Pentium 3 developments rather than the Pentium 4. So the Pentium 4 is tech that comes to a dead end.
Absolutely agree with you. I'm a fan of S-370 platform and, time ago, I ran some benchmarks in order to compare my Tualatin 1400S with other P-III, P4 and Athlon XP processors. The first P4 which reached P-III 1450-S results was the Willamette 2 ghz.
While I have a soft spot for Northwood, as I had that for the majority of the 2000s, my favorit early 2k platform is the Pentium 3 and the Tualatin at that. It's fast and cool and silent. P4 with the stock cooler can easily reach 70°C, especially the Prescott. I think out of all of my retro builds I use my Tualatin the most and maybe the Pentium MMX the second.
I believe Willamette was essentially an unfinished Pentium 4 architecture rushed to market. Northwood was the intended product, but intel were still playing catchup to AMD during this period.
there were many such products, which is result of competition and hasted things. Another example was releasing 8800GT/GTS-512 by Nvidia, which was originally planned as 9000-series as all G92 chips. They were affraid of Radeon HD3870, that it will catch 8800GTS 640 and reach close to 8800 GTX, while price will be under 8800GTS 640. These two cards, 8800 GT / GTS -512 are results, they could not wait to release these cards along with 9800GTX in april 2008, so used not fully optimized and tuned G92 core, that should be still few months to be fine-tuned. This is, why G92 core is presented in 8000 series in these two cases. If competition would not exists, they would be released definetly later as 9800GT and 9800GTS.
I built a dual Tualatin socket 370 gigabyte motherboard back in the day... with a radeon 9700 all in wonder it kicked ass. I had to run win 2000, then xp pro... used it for a long time.
I'd say I'm a little biased due to how I've just had a few Pentium 4s and no Pentium III so this video is really interesting even to little me because it shows how Intel went backwards instead of forward with the Pentium 4. Good job Phil!
The fastest Coppermine was 1.13 GHz with a 133 MHz bus. These were rare back in the day and are very hard to find and expensive today. Also @18:35, bruh you must have never installed OEM AMD heatsinks on 462. It was almost required to heave all of your body weight to get the spring to latch on to the socket. It wasn't uncommon to see posts about people who slipped with their screwdriver and punched a hole in the motherboard. It was such a problem that motherboard OEMs started placing warning stickers with bombs on them next to the CPU socket to warn of potential peril when installing the heatsink. Heatsinks on Socket 462 sucked.
Phil, if you want to ever revisit this video, get an Asus TUA266. It has both SDR(3x1GB) and DDR(2x1GB) support. It uses the ALi Aladdin chipset. It was by far the best board I used in terms of overclocking for the Pentium 3 architecture.
One of the biggest joys I get out of doing this, is playing with hardware, that was totally out of reach back in the day, but can be had for little money now :)
Hi Phil, love your videos... Question for you. I recently built a Voodoo 2 SLI machine, running on a Pentium 4 Celeron @ 1.7ghz (Willamette, 128kb cache). I was wondering what speed Pentium III does this chip compare? I'm running Win98' and everything runs like butta, but just wanted to hear your thoughts on my chip and setup, and if the lack of L2 cache is holding me back at all. Appreciate it!
Oh man the PrescHOTT CPU.... I had the 3GHz 478 version on an Abit IS7 and the stock cooler was NO WHERE NEAR close to keeping that CPU cool! I had to get a zalman CNPS7000 if I remember right. Wonderful video Phil!!
Phil, you are GOD! i always wanted to see this comparison.. Makes me remember when i was a kid, an friend from school told me the: "new p4 with rambus will kill everything from hardware we have now" he was wrong.. lol.. it is possible to run aida(everest) memory and cache benchmark to see the diferences of bandwidth from pc133 to rambus 800mhz?
I still salivate over the 1.4 Tualatin Pentium 3. I had a Celeron 1.1 @ 1.4 back in the day and it was okay for the price, but no where near the P3. It seemed like CPU speeds were progressing so much more back then.
Interesting how quake 3 is always the odd one out? I heard that when intel was resaerching their core based graphics card, quake 3 was one of their test programs. As soon as they used some other generic game, performance would suck. Linus made a video with that prototype card. I wonder what magic cormack packed into the q3 engine? Btw, is activisions crawl to duty still based on the q3 engine?
Depending on the country you live, you get the arctic copper silent and similar heatsinks new and unused for next to nothing. Also for socket 478, you can get good period correct heatsinks for cheap.
yeah I remember this. it was just way too long ago I barely remember when I had similar setups comparing them. the real experience with early willamette pen4s were more horryfing as far as i remember. pen4 era was the time where frequency speed started becoming questionable to increase performance. it probably took until intels core architecture got released which it significantly changed the overall architecture to improve performance per clock sharing l2 cache and adapting multicores structure.
Great video! But how long did these processors stay relevant? My own comparisons show much of the same until games start using sse2. Though even those games were generally sse1 compatible. I have a different library of games, so of course any results I have would be different. Played more blizzard games around that time. I had the AMD Athlon back then though, and I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to see the AMD Athlon 1.4Ghz enter the arena.
What were they chances that today when I got out the old desktop with the Pentium 4 and searched it on TH-cam, that I would find a video on it released only 16 hours ago...
I have overclocked Celeron 1200 to 1600 on Asus P3C-E mainboard with Asus slot/socket converter. But later, I have upgraded to Asus P4T-E mainboard with Pentium 4 3,06 GHz with HT. They were very well, my graphics cards, one of them was Matrox G550 AGP. Later nVidia 6000 something with 256 MB ram. I have very good time with them at the past. For a short time, I also used normal sized Intel mainboard at the video with a 2000 MHz Celeron processor. Intel mainboard was not allowing overclocking, but a single pin when blocked, it was working at 133 MHz speed bus. So with pin modding, it has worked at 2666 MHz really fine, later I sold it....
I wonder how well the Athlon 1.4 would stack up against the PIII. Wikipedia used to say that the Tualatin-1400 could outperform not only the 2GHz Willamette, but also the Athlon-1400. Now, being faster than the Willamette I can believe, but the Athlon...? I seem to recall those things being real speed demons!
We will find out soon :) Now the Athlon had a range of chipsets to choose from, and there is also SDRAM on the early boards, but it quickly went with DDR, so that's what I'm going with.
That does seem dubious. At the very least, the floating point units in the Athlons were a lot stronger, no P3 ever did too well there, not to mention higher FSB bandwidth.
I had north and south bridge on Intel DP35DP motherboard that I used from late 2007 to early 2015. I sort of wonder how do they compare to Raspberry PI. What annoys me on PentiumIII is that all coolers seem to have like 5cm fan running at 6K RPM.
Merci beaucoup Phil ! J'ai tout récemment fait l'acquisition d'une Gigabyte GA-6OXT avec un Pentium III S 1266mhz que j'ai pû overclocker à 1624mhz et le Celeron 1300mhz à 1729mhz , j'ai pû faire mes tests et j'en ai conclu la même chose que toi ! Vraiment excellent ces Tualatin, je vais me construire une machine pour les jeux et les logiciels rétro, merci pour tes conseils 😁😁
btw, that looks like CoolerMaster P4 coolers we use to pull out of old P4 systems we were scrapping for parts... it might not be legit but looks like the ones we use to yank by the dozens...
Out of couriosity: Are you planing somewhere in the future a comparision between the Tualatin-Pentium with 512kb L2 and the Version with 256kb, to see, how the amount of cache influence the performance?
i remeber wanting 2 celeron 300's for the abit bp9? bp6? the dual socket one. they would clock from 300 up to 450 and you could unlock dual socket support. and then i wanted one of these p3's for sure when they came out. intel should have just stuck with the p3 and added an execution unit or 2 and done a few tweaks.
While technically; socket 423 boards can run 3 ghz northwood processors via 423-478 socket adapters along with standard atx psus via 20 pin/6 pin aux adapters, the components to expand it beyond willamette are rare and cost prohibitive. Really unfortunate for those who did invest in the first generation getting burned soon afterwards. Unless one has other reasons for doing so; socket 423 is not worth it.
Recently I began to wish there was someone producing new boards that are socketed for vintage CPUs like Socket A Athlons or even Slot 1 Pentiums, and go as far as to design the power delivery to work with modern PSUs.
Ahahah yeah these days they do... but back in the SDRAM days memory wasn't installed in pairs. Before and after, yes but 168-pin SDRAM was self-contained, didn't need to be paired. I remember my first computer I built, PII on BX motherboard, 3 RAM slots. I started with a 64MB stick, later I added a 128MB stick, and even later a 256MB stick. 448MB total, seems an odd number but it worked perfectly.
I was recently comparing Tualatin 1.4 GHz with Prescott 3 GHz, before you say it's nonsense, I was trying to calculate some performance per MHz and I was pretty shocked that it's not that bad for Pentium 4, but I never tester Willamette, I guess later Northwood and Prescott had slightly better energy efficiency. What we believe today about Pentium 4 are mostly myths. People were just shocked back in the day by those TDPs, but that's understandable when you jumped from like 30W to 80W, which is still low TDP from today point of view. 😀 Also, later P4 had advantage of dual channel and DDR memory, it was not only about CPU. Another problem for Tualatin was very limited amount of motherboards which could accept it and also, many of those MBs were so outdated in that period of time. Which is even bigger problem for AMD, those MBs were crazy, like AMD MB from 2003 still doesn't support USB keyboard? WTF??? Intel MBs supported USB keyboards already in 90s. The main reason why Tualatin and first P4s are that rare is that people just didn't need it, in 2003, most of people I knew still had some common Pentium III or even worse and before games like Doom 3 or FarCry were released, you had no reason to upgrade it and in 2004, that was already prescott time, you could buy a cheap Celeron D with prescott core and it was totaly fine for games. There are even myths about temperatures, like that P4 is really hot, it's not, Athlons XP on similar performance level as your P4 were hotter, especially with coolers which were common on socket 462. 😀 Some later P4, let's say 2.8 GHz northwood had totaly fine temperature even with stock cooler with fan on 5V to make it silent. So, was it great architecture with potential to the future? Probably not, but was it that bad as people say? Definitely not. BTW, cache matters, even when I said Celeron D was fine for games, there was still pretty high difference compared to "full blooded" (as we say in Czech) Pentium 4 in gaming performence. Speed of whole system, how it is responding, how folders are opening etc...that was everything really slow even on Tualatin 1.4 with Win XP, because of SDRAM 133 MHz and other outdated features, so in that time, going from some PIII 866 MHz to Tualatin was probably jump, but it was slow anyway, I would just wait another 1-2 years and upgrade to Pentium 4 or maybe some Athlon XP, but you should know that Athlon XP still didn't have dual channel, AMD had dual channel on socket 939 for the first time, that's ridiculous. So I would probably buy some Celeron D or older P4 again, sorry AMD, but dual channel made a difference. 😀 2:08 I have exactly this 1GHz PIII for socket 370, I had to order it from France few years ago because it's that rare now. 😀 BTW, we still call it north bridge and south bridge even now, even when these names are not relevant for like 25 years, but habit is habit. 😀 When you say south bridge, everyone knows that you means that chip on down part of your MB. I have better experiences with VIA chipsets on sc370 MBs than with Intel, everything you put there just works, which is really not the case with Intel Chipsets 810 and 815 with famous problems with IDE controllers and RAM problems, sometimes it was throwing errors while installing windows, while with VIA chipset everything always worked fine. You still had to set jumpers correctly for FSB and such things on Intel Chipsets, I would say that VIA chipsets for sc 370 were like 1-2 years in the future compared to intel, no jumpers anymore, you just installed a new CPU and it worked automaticaly. BTW, CL2 SDRAM are pretty much useless because many of those MBs won't let you set CL2 in bios, sometiems you have to choose between CL2.5 and CL3. And SDRAM are now more expensive than DDR1, those sellers are really crazy. Installing standard 370 cooler on Tualatin needs more force, but it's mostly possible, I would say that sc 370 CPUs have all such a low TDP, that cooler doesn't matter if it is not something really bad. What I love about those coolers is that it was compatible even with AMD sc 462, so you can use later 462 cooler for your Pentium III, which is cool. Funny is that chipsets on sc 462 motheboards are hotter than Pentium III CPUs. For socket 478, I still keep my old Zalman from like 2007. Once I tried to delid Pentium 4, but I delided it more than I planned, I guess that core was supposed to stay on PCB. When it's soldered, I think is pretty much pointless to delid it. Many coolers for sc 478 were already full aluminium and that copper heatspreader actually helps. I realized that while testing Athlon XPs with naked core, when you install cooler with extra copper plate on bottom side (between core and actual heatsink), it has much better temperatures than same looking heatsink without that copper plate. I had some problems with 5V when I combined Tualatin with GeForce 6600, my 5V cable just melted, but even later AGP cards already use only 12V from additional power connector, so it's more safe. I also noticed that some socket 462 boards actually have 12V connector for CPU similarly as P4, so I guess some manufacturers decided to use the same solution as P4. It's better to have some old PSU from like 2006-2010, it has much better cables (bigger diameter) and better 5V line and even molex connectors are better quality than today. I think they should never have released anything like P4 1.4 GHz because that architecture was just meant for higher frequencies and this caused many of that hate against P4, because it's obvious that Tualatin had better performence per MHz than Willamette. So why to buy some 1.4 GHz P4 when you can buy 2.4 GHz or even more?
Pentium 4 had so much growth. FSB started with 400 and went to 800 and higher. RDRAM, SDRAM, DDR, DDR dual. Cache drastically increased. HT, two cores. 180nm down to 65.
@@philscomputerlab Yeah and sorry for really long comment, I alwas forget about time and how it is long when I type something. 😀 I am still not sure about how important was dual channel, in some tests, it's massive difference (so P4 totaly destroyes Athlon) but in some other tests or even some games, there is no difference or Athlon can be even better without dual channel, this is still very confusing for me and I will definitely test it more.
Hey Phil, my apologies for not asking a video appropriate question, but I have a 286 and 4 sticks of 1MB ram, the motherboard I have is an Octek Fox II Rev 3.0 and it had 12 DIP memory chips(that I removed), which accounted for 1MB of ram total. After putting the 4x1mb sticks, my system only detects 1MB and I get a parity error very often, unless I remove 2 sticks and run with 512k of ram. Do you happen to know why the ram isn't detected as 4mb and why it crashes with 4 sticks? Also, I forgot to say, the motherboard's manual specifies that it can run up to 4mb of ram, and something about bios shadow(which I can't see in my bios for some reason).
Just wondering if there are any GPU bottleneck issues with using the P3 over the P4? I'm only asking because back in 2004 I upgraded from a ATi 9800 Pro to an ATi X800 XL and my poor Athlon XP 3000+ made the X800 perform worse than the 9800! (literally talking about 10-25 fps lows and over 80 fps highs with constant stuttering on Half Life 2, regardless of resolution or detail settings) I'd hate to see someone in the same position as I was, especially considering how much of a premium some of the top performing retro cards are going for now.
It is really weird, knew it was CPU bottle necking once I swapped from an XP Athlon to a Pentium 4 Prescott Core and got similar FPS to the Toms Hardware performance graphs. Weirdly enough though the XP Athlon worked perfectly with a Geforce 6800, it might have been driver overhead (AI Catalyst was new at the time) or possibly the N-Force chipset wasn't updated for the newer ATi cards (wouldn't be the first time Nvidia did dodgy stuff like that).
with VIA chipsets, i often had problems getting AGP cards to work in their AGP mode, this was due to one of the PCI to PCI bridges using the basic driver instead of the PCI to AGP driver, which i had to install manually, works great afterwards though :)
ddr1 was introduced on intel 845? isn't there a socket 370 with ddr1? also, the important question; does that mobo support tualatin. i've seen ppl do 1.6ghz
I found an old 250W power sypply AT format with 8P and 9P connectors (No 20/24 pin and 4pin). What are they? I've never seen before such connectors. They look ancient :) and btw, the PSU works.
Would've loved to send him a bunch of motherboards (and related HW) out of my stash for testing/benchmarking if I knew about this video topic beforehand. I have several of those "rare" S370 Tualatin capable boards with DDR-RAM, an Asus BX board that has been modified for Tualatin support (and is snappier than any i815), a S423 RDRAM board that does *not* need the AUX power connector for some reason (I also have a S423 to S478 adapter to go with it), a S478 i845 Gigabyte board with SD-RAM (comparison of how much of a performance difference it causes vs. RDRAM in those early days?), plus several CPUs not tested here, like the non-server version of the PIII Tualatin 1.4GHz with 256KB Cache as opposed to 512KB and last but not least the super slow 1.*3*GHz S423 P4 Willamette along with several faster models up to the 2GHz version (fastest S423 CPU released). Also all of the boards are fully recapped, so no junk caps (like the Teapo/Yageo I'm seeing right now on the PCPartner motherboard at the 19:00 mark) where you just don't know if those cause stability issues or if it's something else... PS: If you're planning on doing a similar video with Athlons, I still have a "golden finger" somewhere for the Slot A Athlons PPS: Startech does nothing but rebadge (with a few exceptions usually cheap chinese) stuff and add a giant markup, so if you don't mind waiting a while longer for stuff to arrive, you can buy straight from chinese sellers on ebay, dealextreme, banggood or whatever and usually get the same thing much much cheaper. Or just get an older, used high end cooler (Thermaltake, Coolermaster, Zalman or whatever) and replace just the fan with a new one. Wall of text warning: I personally like to use the very good Zalman CNPS-7000/7500/8500 series coolers (which can all be mounted on S478/S462/S775/S754/S939) because one can readily get those used on ebay, disassemble the fans and replace the 2 ball bearings (693ZZ if I remember correctly), making it run quiet/like new again if the original bearings were shot. For S370 or lower power Socket A builds, the good old Arctic Cooling Copper Silent II has proven itself to be very useful. On Coppermine CPUs even more so since it has the 3-hole mounting clamps, it's complete overkill cooling capacity wise and most of all: it's quiet compared to those 60mm (or smaller) turbine noise floor fans that were so common back then. If the cheap sleeve bearings on those Arctic Cooling coolers get noisy/scratchy, peel off the label and add a drop of fairly thick oil (I use 85W90 gearbox oil since a bottle of it was left in the garage from the previous guy who lived here lol) into the bearing and run it for a while so it seeps in. Seems like almost everything back then still had a way of DIY fixing even if it wasn't endorsed by the manufacturer, while most of the stuff from today is intentionally designed to make fixing as hard as possible, if not impossible (gluing/sealing things shut etc., which they now even do on simple things like fan bearings :( ...)
Back in the day, I had a P4 1.6. I currently have several P4 CPUs but I am not going to build a Willamette machine. I am going to build a 2.4GHz Northwood instead. The reason being is I need a dedicated machine for Star Force and SecuROM games and I need a little more power than a Willamette can muster. To play the early XP games I played on my P4, I am building a PIII 1000EB with a similar GF3 card to what I had back then. I don't think I will be hampered by a 512MB memory limit. My P4 had 1GB of DDR RAM. I also have a P4 650 HT machine with a 7800GTX
Skipping the P4 was a good thing,. Skipping the P3 not so much, they were nice chips, on par with AMD's offerings but Intel decided they won't sell as much.
So did I. I had a 1 GHz Athlon Thunderbird system in January 2001. At the time I was shocked at how fast it was. I used an enormous (at the time) 640 megabytes of RAM.
I really do regret not getting the Tualatin at the time. I had a 1.5GHz Wilamette, and my friends AMD systems we're wrecking me in framerates and cost. The only saving grace was Quake 3. Ah, early 2000's PC's.
Hmm I'm not sure I have that model, I got the III-S years ago for just a few dollars, it never occured to me to pickup the lesser versions to be honest.
phil can you make a P3 tualatin vs the fastest S478 P4 review? it would be interesting to see how the do at the same speed so 1.4 vs 1.4 but with al the cache etc on there normal speeds/modes
I remember buying a Pentium M based laptop on 2005 and being completely blown away by how much it could do at such a low frequency (1,6 Ghz). Compared to my old desktop, it would encode MP3 so fast that I thought the program had bugged out and just written blank files instead.
Yeah Pentium M laptops were awesome👍 Still got a P-M Thinkpad and it just feels so quick doing any XP task I throw at it.
@@MOS6582 I have an inspiron 700m with a 1.7ghz pentium M. Nice laptop! Even with modern debian!
Yes, but that was 2005, one or 2 years was really a difference back in the day. People know judge Pentium 4 not fairly, because they don't see whole story and what was actually available in that time.
@@PidalinThe problem was that the Pentium 4 was as fast as if the branch prediction worked but (as the benchmark showed) even significantly slower than the Pentium 3 if the branch prediction did not work for the task and the whole pipeline had to be rebuilt wasting cycles. And to get this you were asked to invest in not only a new board and CPU but also new RAM and PSU so almost a whole new PC that is sometimes slower than the CPU that it replaces.
The first P4 laptops had battery run times of about 2 hours which was good ironically because you'd have gone crazy if the fan ran any longer. That was why people judged it poorly.
@@Pidalin Williamette with SD RAM or RD RAM was a disaster. At the time, Athlon had been available for a while already and those were faster than that. The reason intel didn't have anything better at the time is.. well because they were busy with this piece of crap.
The reason they eventually ditched netburst completely was because netburst was crap.
The thing that I find most interesting about the P4 was that AMD showed that frequency wasn't the be all and end all in CPU performance. While the P4 eventually outpaced the Athlon XP, the Athlon 64 came along and beat the P4 soundly in most things with only 2/3rds of the actual frequency.
Then in a fit of insanity AMD somehow thought that emulating the P4 thinking was a good idea and we got the unmitigated failure of FX, which when first introduced had the very same comparison to phenom 2 as we see here with this P4vP3 comparison.
While FX pulled ahead of phenom2 it did so only because of the higher clock speeds at introduction, but because people were overclocking phenom 2's up to 4GHz (because they could), the initial FX bulldozers couldn't really compete well against the processors they were replacing (one can only wonder what a phenom 3 might have been like, especially an 8 core).
I was actually shocked and very disappointed when those Faildozers came out... the FX-4100 at 3.6GHz performed just about the same as a (very mildly by core2 standards) overclocked Core 2 Quad Q6600 at 3GHz... an almost 5 year old CPU at the time of the FX release. Not to mention any Sandy Bridge CPU from the same year beat the sh*t out of the so called equivalent FX CPU. WTF were they thinking with that whole FX lineup?!
It's no wonder why you still occasionally see people with heavily overclocked Sandy Bridge setups from back in 2011 (same year as the FX), but all the FXes (along with all the underperforming-when-new FM1 and FM2 trash) have long since moved to the scrap pile
@@Knaeckebrotsaege AMD was hoping the software would catch up to the hardware. Finewine and all. If you think about it, it did. The extra cores make the FX 8 cores relevant for 1080p 60Hz gaming even today.
I was still young enough in 2011 when bulldozer came out where I could see myself leaning into fanboyism toward AMD. It was the absolute failure of those benchmarks that fated day day in fall 2011 that my bastions of fanboyism finally disappeared (dramatic wording is intentional :) ). I knew I couldn't be stupid enough to try to support a bulldozer chip. Then a year later when pile driver came out and it was actually respectable in use cases I needed it for at the price point I went with the fx8350. I still have that fx8350 to this very day. Funny joke is that its been so long since 2012 that AMD has become relevant again and if I did build a new pc it would because AMD is legitimately the best all round chip and it would not be any fanboyism.
@@Trick-Framed Just recently a GPU scaling benchmark was released by hardware unboxed that shows the fx8370 cpu still failing miserably. Although I think I want to walk through that video again and see where the bias in game selection sit in the video. Oh yeah I think the vulkan/dx12 titles the fx system was actually competent. Its just even to this day the adoption of dx12/vulkan is not good enough.
@@pauls4522 Gamer's Nexus did one too. Except Steve Burke admitted his home PC had an 8370 and he kept his beast machines at work. It did well with a 2080ti....which I think most processors would...lol.
Yes!!! Several commenters requested this on a previous video and here it is! Phil delivers once again. Love this channel.
everything down south✊✊
I hear Austrian, German, Australian and British in that accent. Amazing. Good videos!
Well I lived in all those countries :D But I'm Austrian and now living in Australia :D
@@philscomputerlab awesome!
That thumbnail made me chuckle. Thanks for that.
Heads up, CL is CAS Latency rather than Cache Latency. It's based on one of the signals involved in DRAM, the CAS (Column Access Strobe) and how many clock ticks you have to wait between strobing it and some of the other signals.
I had a p3 1000 and "upgraded" to a 1.4ghz p4, it was slightly slower in my benchmarks (use to load music projects up and see how many plugins I could run). I was very lucky the shop I went to let me return it and buy a 1.4ghz p3, kept that as my main machine until I got a Northwood 2.8ghz p4. Cool video
can't wait for those P4 Prescotts wiping the floor with previous P4s in the room heating benchmarks!
For sure, the Prescotts were terrible. I own a couple of Northwoods though and they run frosty by comparison.
Amazing how history repeats itself. When the first Pentiums came out, there was much discussion about the massive 16 watt monsters needed a heatsink AND a fan. :D
Prescotts were soo hot intel came out with the btx form factor to try to get them cooler.
Later with the Cedar Mill shrink they got thermals and power draw under control. They aren't bad, just came too late. That is probably what Prescott should've been. Released in early 2006 they were succeeded mid 2006 by the first Core 2.
You should do a PIII 1.4Ghz vs Core2Duo 1.4Ghz (disable 1 core), Core2 is basically an updated PIII. Would be interesting.
Core 1 series in laptops is more of a updated PIII, as it still uses P6 microarchitecture with some changes. Core 2 series was a very heavy modification.
@@niewazneniewazne1890 Technically a comparison to the Pentium M/Celeron M (though those are noticeably worse) would be even more accurate. Even visually they look similar to socket 370 Pentiums/Celerons.
The Core 2 Duo would obliterate the PIII without any doubt. A C2D destroys even the newest socket 775 P4
@@Romerco77 the slowest Core 2 Duo matched or beat out the fastest Pentium 4. so theres no comparison there.
I would like to see such a video no matter what how big the difference is!
If you're wondering what the tiny brown slot is on the left side of the Pentium IV motherboard, it's a riser for the Kennereth Fast Ethernet adapter that interfaces with the ICH2 chipset.
That is surely AMR slot that allowed for some softmodem/audio cards. Never seen a card myself though.
@@gentuxable I tested the network risers that went in that slot at Intel. It was a network interface slot. There was also a digital subscriber line (DSL) interface available for it. Intel only provided the risers to OEMs for some reason (which is why you hardly see the riser cards)...ICH2 had a MAC (Media Access Controller) built into the chipset that interfaced directly with the "north bridge", bypassing the I/O busses (you could send and receive100 MB Ethernet at wire speed on these boards, a feat previously reserved for servers!). It lacked a PHY, or physical interface, which was provided by the riser card. Some motherboards used the ICH2 MAC and actually provided a PHY as well, so you got a LOM (Lan on Motherboard) on those systems. Intel created many more ICHx interfaces after this, but they discarded the clunky risers. Lots of laptop chipsets had an ICH-based LOM in them.
I love my socket 478 computers, might not hit as hard a P3 in raw performance but I really appreciate SSE2 support as I use them for 1996-2009 gaming
People speak about Tualatin now like about some god like CPU, but after Northwood core and frequencies like 2.4 GHz were released, Tualatin was totaly obsolete, P4 northwood was just much faster and ofcourse even more fast thank to DDR memory. I have Tualatin 1.4 GHz, so I can test it, I am not just using some old memories, so I can see all those myths. It was great architecture in case of energy efficiency, but RAW performance was already really low in 2002, especially because of SDRAM hellmory which were always problematical, problems with compatibility etc...switch to DDR was really a massive jump in term of compatibility. Jump to DDR3 later was pretty much like return of SDRAM, I hated DDR3, so many problems with them, unstability, blue screens. I mean mainly on socket 775 boards. 😀
@@Pidalin I recall quite clearly people have always been worshipping the tualatin even back in 2006 when I was using a Duron 850MHz there was many people in computer forums either drooling at the thought of owning one (Tualatin, not my Duron lol) or people who did have one and bragged it was magically smoother than the P4s even when the frame rates were lower. Of course everybody seemed to have the 1.4GHz PIII-S with 512kb L2. That said I do want one to complete my PIII collection. I have a 600MHz Slot 1 Katmai on a 440BX, a 1GHz Coppermine S370 133MHz FSB model and if I had a Tualatin 1.4 S model I’d have all 3 of the fastest model Pentium III’s on their respective process design 250nm Katmai 180nm coppermine and 130nm Tualatin.
@@Protoking I recently sold my Tualatin 1.4 GHz, it's really interesting piece of history, but I need to lower that number of computer hardware I have at home and I want to keep only practical things, which Tualatin is not, for some late Win 9x retro PC, it's better to find some decent Athlon XP with DDR RAM, Tualatin is weak. But frequency/performance ratio is ofcourse very good compared to some P4, problem is that after 2001, clock speeds jumped up pretty fast, to tualatin became obsolete pretty fast.
Using some 850 MHz Duron in 2006 had to be really pain, I had still PII 400 MHz in 2004, but then it went pretty fast, I had a new computer (I mean not new, but new for me) pretty much every half year. 🙂
I had some Celeron D 2.8 GHz and GF 6800LE
later 7600GT) in 2006 and that was already weak for new games because these celerons and Pentium 4s were bottlenecking these late AGP GPUs, you already needed core 2 duo in 2006 or 2007 to play in better quality. I have a lot of retro HW and I do many tests, I am shocked how poorly games ran back in the day on HW from that period of time, we are complaining now, but it was even worse 20 years ago, you had to play in 800x600/low to stable 40 FPS. 😀
@@Pidalin thank you for share
@@Protoking Cool!
Great video dude, happy to see that you took in count those who wanted this comparison :) kind regards
Phil, I f*ing love your videos!
F*ck, I Philling love your videos!
Phil, thanks for giving Willamette a go! Really cool to see. Although I would have loved to see the Socket-423 variant.
One of my first computers was an old Compaq Evo D310 with a Intel Pentium 4 "Northwood" 478mPGA CPU with a 2.66 GHz speed and included a Nvidia Geforce 6200 GPU
I had a P4 1.4, used it for a file server. It was a total lemon for a desktop. I remember even the newer 1.8 P4 chips being terrible. At the time the hot setup was a Duron 1.3, which would destroy a P4 1.8, on average. You could buy a new Duron 1.3 for under a $100 Canadian peso's too. That was a really fun time in computers back then. 1GB of ram was over the top. Really great time.
canadian peso's haha
What I remember from those early P4's was that almost all boards that come into the shop were dead, while P3 continue to last longer and longer. Athlon/Duron were a good option, but they were so fragile that any error would destroy the cpu die. Besides that? I miss so much the times that I had my 550MHz Athlon with 768MB RAM and a FX5200 128MB. XP running fast and I could even enable HQ in youtube (who remembers that from early days of YT?) with 30fps hahahahahh
High Clock frequencies are very important for the netburst architecture. I think a overclocked Tualatin to 1,6Ghz comes very close to the 2,2 GHz Northwood.
It does. Depending on the applications even on 1400 Tualatin scales between 1.8-2.0 on the Netburst scale. or as fast as a 2.66 GHz Northwood Celeron :D
you see you much the increase from 100 fsb to 133 helps the system? if you increase it further to 166 AND increase the clock speed the system gets a lot faster. not sure if tualatin can handle that though
GraveUypo
I have max. tested 150 Mhz FSB with my 1,4 ghz Tualatin (1575 MHz). This frequency is still save for AGP/PCI cards. (75/37.5). I dont want go higher. Also positive is, that the last SL6BY stepping can handle this frequency with the standard vcore of 1,45V.
In 3DMark 2000 (standard settings) and a GeForce 4 Ti 4600 (320/700), I get 12700 points.
My Tualatin did hit 1,7Ghz hehe, and I did it on purpose to overclock the PCI as highest as possible cause it increases the bandwidth to the Voodoo5 PCI Iv used. But back to the netbursts, there has been huge IPC improvement between Willamete and Northwood. When both run at 2Ghz in games the NW can be easily 15-20% faster. Northwood was arguable the only good Netburst CPU. IPC was OK, overclocking on the lower models was huge, it reached up to 3,4Ghz in the end, and then you also had the Gallatin variant with 2MB of L3. Prescott was a failure, more power hungry and IPC went down cause the pipeline got longer and the cache latency got much worse. Tejas got canceleed cause it was even worse than prescott, and Cedar Mill is just a die-shrink. It clocked high and power draw was massively imrpoved, but for year 2005/6 it was not good enough performance wise when AMd already had dualcore K8. And there is another thing, Netburst needs at least 256KB of L2 cache. If it does not have that the performance takes dive to disaster levels. The 128KB Celeron version at 3Ghz performs like K7 at 1Ghz at times, especially in games. Avoid the 128K Celerons at all costs.
I also would say, that the Northwood core is the best Netburst CPU.
It's worth mentioning that Intel's next overclocking gem around that time would be the 1.6 GHz P4 Northwood, which could easily reach 2.4 GHz (with FSB and SDRAM running at 150 MHz). As inefficient as the P4 architecture was, it still managed to outdo what any P3 could ever reach.
I guess that would be a nice subject for another video.
Great video Phil! Today, I Found a Dell Inspiron 8100 today in a thrift store. Has a tualitin 1ghz in it along with a Geforce 2!
Runs retro games on Win98 smooth as silk
i recently rebuild my first pc with a Tualatin 1Ghz celeron, and a AOpen MX3S-T mainboard. oh and thanks Phil for hosting the firmware for that board.
One small correction, CL as in CL-2 is not "cache" latency, but CAS latency. CAS or Column Access Strobe is one of the signals used for DRAM control. The other is RAS or Row Access Strobe.
(edit) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAS_latency
Just a slight correction Phil, CL on RAM stands for CAS Latency, CAS stands for Column Address Strobe, not cache :)
Great video as always though, you're definitely one of my favourite TH-camrs and as much as I know, I still find myself learning loads from your videos :)
Ah, thanks for the correction :D Nothing gets past you guys :P
No worries. It's one of the things I love about this community, no matter how much we know, we can always learn more from others. :)
I thought he was saying Cas but his accent made it seem like cache, guess I was wrong haha.
I love how in depth you went with this video!! Nice job keep it up
Thank you Phill for that video, I always wanted to see such competition. When i was kid, I’ve heard a lot of negative things about Willamette against Tualatin
Once again, giving the people what they need! Thanks Phil!
Great video! Loved the detailed background info, really puts things in perspective.
I remember being tempted to upgrade to the 1.4GHz Tualatin back in the day... right up until I found out my Via chipset board wasn't compatible. Couldn't afford a P4, so I ended up going AMD.
Funnily enough, I never had any stability issues with the Via chipset, although I was running Nvidia cards, so I guess they were all running at AGP 2x and I never knew it until now!
There are ways to pinmod it. And there are socket adapters that take care of the changed power delivery.
Yea you likely wouldn't notice the difference, but yea depends on what card you use :)
Love this channel. Great content with very good technical knowledge.
Solid pronunciation on the core names. This is the first time I’ve heard BOTH tualatin AND willamette pronounced correctly by the same person on youtube.
Well, you know, with an accent, tualatin in ‘Merican is “two all a tin”.
I tried :D
Not a native Oregonian, but I am a north-westerner with ties to Oregon. From what I've heard, "two ALL a tin" is actually right. I watched part of a speech from the mayor (or may have been ex-mayor at the time) where I remember he distinctly pronounced it that way as well.
I have also heard "two AL a tin", though not as much. Could be I'm just talking to too many Portlanders. "Will AM it" is definitely correct though.
Either way, not sure the ethnocentric disdain is really called for when Intel specifically named the cores after north-western locales in... "'Merica." That being the case, however the locals have chosen to pronounce the names of their towns (typically, in that area, being derived from a Native American word or phrase) is about as authoritative as it can get.
Looking back at this, I'm very tempted to try and run a Willamette P4 inside a laptop that presently has a Northwood P4 HT 3.2GHz (which is old enough to not have the HT Intel sticker)
Fun fact is that the Core processors were built on the Pentium 3 developments rather than the Pentium 4.
So the Pentium 4 is tech that comes to a dead end.
Yay first was waiting this kinda video for a long time
Thanks 4 ❤️
Absolutely agree with you. I'm a fan of S-370 platform and, time ago, I ran some benchmarks in order to compare my Tualatin 1400S with other P-III, P4 and Athlon XP processors. The first P4 which reached P-III 1450-S results was the Willamette 2 ghz.
Intel in the late 90's were projecting they would reach 8 GHz by 2003. That explains everything you need to know about the pentium 4 design.
Yea, and they stopped just before hitting 4 GHz...
as somebody who grew up in oregon it pleased me to hear willamette pronunciation not get butchered
While I have a soft spot for Northwood, as I had that for the majority of the 2000s, my favorit early 2k platform is the Pentium 3 and the Tualatin at that. It's fast and cool and silent. P4 with the stock cooler can easily reach 70°C, especially the Prescott. I think out of all of my retro builds I use my Tualatin the most and maybe the Pentium MMX the second.
Awesome video. Minor correction about the SDRAM at 8:00, CL2, is CAS Latency = 2, not Cache Latency. :) CAS stands for Column Address Strobe.
I believe Willamette was essentially an unfinished Pentium 4 architecture rushed to market. Northwood was the intended product, but intel were still playing catchup to AMD during this period.
there were many such products, which is result of competition and hasted things. Another example was releasing 8800GT/GTS-512 by Nvidia, which was originally planned as 9000-series as all G92 chips. They were affraid of Radeon HD3870, that it will catch 8800GTS 640 and reach close to 8800 GTX, while price will be under 8800GTS 640. These two cards, 8800 GT / GTS -512 are results, they could not wait to release these cards along with 9800GTX in april 2008, so used not fully optimized and tuned G92 core, that should be still few months to be fine-tuned. This is, why G92 core is presented in 8000 series in these two cases. If competition would not exists, they would be released definetly later as 9800GT and 9800GTS.
whats the accent? sounds like german and australian mixed?
I've got the same thought, and i am german. Sounds familiar to me.
That's exactly what it is...
Wouldn't that make it ..... austrian
the P3's Tualatins were faster than the first P4's it's a known fact.
Nice video. Was hoping to see a Duron 1200 as well ( or 1400), and ofcourse not to forget the thunderbird.
So you want all hotheads forever removed from the net?
Not very nice of you.
Just a matter of time!
I built a dual Tualatin socket 370 gigabyte motherboard back in the day... with a radeon 9700 all in wonder it kicked ass. I had to run win 2000, then xp pro... used it for a long time.
Waiting for my Radeon 9600pro to arrive so I can FINALLY finish my Tually build. Nice video!
Great retro GPU.
very good video phil, thanks a lot!
I'd say I'm a little biased due to how I've just had a few Pentium 4s and no Pentium III so this video is really interesting even to little me because it shows how Intel went backwards instead of forward with the Pentium 4.
Good job Phil!
@RavenPrecept I'd rather say they were faster bot they ran even hotter. Intel completely lost balance until the introduction of the Core2.
The fastest Coppermine was 1.13 GHz with a 133 MHz bus. These were rare back in the day and are very hard to find and expensive today.
Also @18:35, bruh you must have never installed OEM AMD heatsinks on 462. It was almost required to heave all of your body weight to get the spring to latch on to the socket. It wasn't uncommon to see posts about people who slipped with their screwdriver and punched a hole in the motherboard. It was such a problem that motherboard OEMs started placing warning stickers with bombs on them next to the CPU socket to warn of potential peril when installing the heatsink.
Heatsinks on Socket 462 sucked.
Phil, if you want to ever revisit this video, get an Asus TUA266. It has both SDR(3x1GB) and DDR(2x1GB) support. It uses the ALi Aladdin chipset. It was by far the best board I used in terms of overclocking for the Pentium 3 architecture.
like to see that P3 Tualatin vs some 2000~2001 era AMD stuff like the Gen 1 Slot A Athlon and later Athlon Thunderbirds
Yea just a matter of time.
Yeah, throw in a nice T-bird.
And maybe do a comparison how Coppermine holds up against Willamette and Northwood.
Awesome video as always! Just makes me a bit sad I never had those things in the past.. Keep up the good work!
One of the biggest joys I get out of doing this, is playing with hardware, that was totally out of reach back in the day, but can be had for little money now :)
Hi Phil, love your videos... Question for you. I recently built a Voodoo 2 SLI machine, running on a Pentium 4 Celeron @ 1.7ghz (Willamette, 128kb cache). I was wondering what speed Pentium III does this chip compare? I'm running Win98' and everything runs like butta, but just wanted to hear your thoughts on my chip and setup, and if the lack of L2 cache is holding me back at all. Appreciate it!
Not sure, but it should have plenty of performance for V2 SLI, especially at higher resolutions.
Amazing video, as usual.
Oh man the PrescHOTT CPU.... I had the 3GHz 478 version on an Abit IS7 and the stock cooler was NO WHERE NEAR close to keeping that CPU cool! I had to get a zalman CNPS7000 if I remember right. Wonderful video Phil!!
Phil, you are GOD!
i always wanted to see this comparison..
Makes me remember when i was a kid, an friend from school told me the: "new p4 with rambus will kill everything from hardware we have now"
he was wrong.. lol..
it is possible to run aida(everest) memory and cache benchmark to see the diferences of bandwidth from pc133 to rambus 800mhz?
I still salivate over the 1.4 Tualatin Pentium 3. I had a Celeron 1.1 @ 1.4 back in the day and it was okay for the price, but no where near the P3. It seemed like CPU speeds were progressing so much more back then.
Interesting how quake 3 is always the odd one out? I heard that when intel was resaerching their core based graphics card, quake 3 was one of their test programs. As soon as they used some other generic game, performance would suck. Linus made a video with that prototype card. I wonder what magic cormack packed into the q3 engine? Btw, is activisions crawl to duty still based on the q3 engine?
Is there way I can get in contact with you? I have an absulote absured amount of DDR ram and I love watching your videos.
Thanks, but that won't be necessary, I have got a ton of RAM already :)
Depending on the country you live, you get the arctic copper silent and similar heatsinks new and unused for next to nothing. Also for socket 478, you can get good period correct heatsinks for cheap.
Pentium 3 rules in Phil hands !
yeah I remember this. it was just way too long ago I barely remember when I had similar setups comparing them. the real experience with early willamette pen4s were more horryfing as far as i remember. pen4 era was the time where frequency speed started becoming questionable to increase performance. it probably took until intels core architecture got released which it significantly changed the overall architecture to improve performance per clock sharing l2 cache and adapting multicores structure.
Great video! But how long did these processors stay relevant? My own comparisons show much of the same until games start using sse2. Though even those games were generally sse1 compatible. I have a different library of games, so of course any results I have would be different. Played more blizzard games around that time. I had the AMD Athlon back then though, and I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to see the AMD Athlon 1.4Ghz enter the arena.
Been wanting to get a Tualitin core Pentium III For my main rig now I want one even more
Main rig?
@@h2oaddict Most frequently used Personal Computer
@@ponysoftonline4533 I know what it means.
wished you try overclocking the tualatin to compete the northwood as i have had mine up to 2ghz on air
What were they chances that today when I got out the old desktop with the Pentium 4 and searched it on TH-cam, that I would find a video on it released only 16 hours ago...
I have overclocked Celeron 1200 to 1600 on Asus P3C-E mainboard with Asus slot/socket converter. But later, I have upgraded to Asus P4T-E mainboard with Pentium 4 3,06 GHz with HT. They were very well, my graphics cards, one of them was Matrox G550 AGP. Later nVidia 6000 something with 256 MB ram. I have very good time with them at the past. For a short time, I also used normal sized Intel mainboard at the video with a 2000 MHz Celeron processor. Intel mainboard was not allowing overclocking, but a single pin when blocked, it was working at 133 MHz speed bus. So with pin modding, it has worked at 2666 MHz really fine, later I sold it....
I wonder how well the Athlon 1.4 would stack up against the PIII. Wikipedia used to say that the Tualatin-1400 could outperform not only the 2GHz Willamette, but also the Athlon-1400. Now, being faster than the Willamette I can believe, but the Athlon...? I seem to recall those things being real speed demons!
We will find out soon :) Now the Athlon had a range of chipsets to choose from, and there is also SDRAM on the early boards, but it quickly went with DDR, so that's what I'm going with.
That does seem dubious. At the very least, the floating point units in the Athlons were a lot stronger, no P3 ever did too well there, not to mention higher FSB bandwidth.
Hey Phil, whats the name of this Socket 370 board? it looks nice
Not sure the video is quite old now. If it's not mentioned in the video then I don't know 😞
:/
I know it's somewhat older but i looks like one of the few i815 boards with the audio section intact. That's why I'm asking.@@philscomputerlab
There's a reason why Intel built the post-pentium 4/Pentium D chips from the Pentium 3 architecture.
Still got a Northwood 3.2GHZ with Asus P4C800-E MB.
The clock speed vs. performance issue was really highlighted when it came to Core 2 vs P4 - now how did Intel spin that one?
I had north and south bridge on Intel DP35DP motherboard that I used from late 2007 to early 2015. I sort of wonder how do they compare to Raspberry PI.
What annoys me on PentiumIII is that all coolers seem to have like 5cm fan running at 6K RPM.
Merci beaucoup Phil !
J'ai tout récemment fait l'acquisition d'une Gigabyte GA-6OXT avec un Pentium III S 1266mhz que j'ai pû overclocker à 1624mhz et le Celeron 1300mhz à 1729mhz , j'ai pû faire mes tests et j'en ai conclu la même chose que toi ! Vraiment excellent ces Tualatin, je vais me construire une machine pour les jeux et les logiciels rétro, merci pour tes conseils 😁😁
Fantastic 😀
btw, that looks like CoolerMaster P4 coolers we use to pull out of old P4 systems we were scrapping for parts... it might not be legit but looks like the ones we use to yank by the dozens...
Out of couriosity: Are you planing somewhere in the future a comparision between the Tualatin-Pentium with 512kb L2 and the Version with 256kb, to see, how the amount of cache influence the performance?
And that's why the Core architecture is based on the Pentium 3
Great movie :) Do you test some celerons in future and compare them to P3/P4 and some Athlon 1300/1400 ?
i remeber wanting 2 celeron 300's for the abit bp9? bp6? the dual socket one. they would clock from 300 up to 450 and you could unlock dual socket support. and then i wanted one of these p3's for sure when they came out. intel should have just stuck with the p3 and added an execution unit or 2 and done a few tweaks.
Hi Phil, so in the agp driving value bios item, just type 128? Have you tried with nvidia ge 4 ti? Sorry for my English, greetings from Uruguay🖒🖒
128 decimal, but enter as HEX.
I like how you can see the traces on old motherboards.
While technically; socket 423 boards can run 3 ghz northwood processors via 423-478 socket adapters along with standard atx psus via 20 pin/6 pin aux adapters, the components to expand it beyond willamette are rare and cost prohibitive. Really unfortunate for those who did invest in the first generation getting burned soon afterwards. Unless one has other reasons for doing so; socket 423 is not worth it.
every person i know whos had a p3-tu overclocked them to at least 1.6-1.7x range... it still ran cooler then the p4 on the equiv cooler...
I always wondered. Is RDRAM set up with dual data rate like the later DDR SDRAM or is it single data rate?
Recently I began to wish there was someone producing new boards that are socketed for vintage CPUs like Socket A Athlons or even Slot 1 Pentiums, and go as far as to design the power delivery to work with modern PSUs.
Why 3 memory slots? I thought they always come in single or even numbers.
Ahahah yeah these days they do... but back in the SDRAM days memory wasn't installed in pairs. Before and after, yes but 168-pin SDRAM was self-contained, didn't need to be paired. I remember my first computer I built, PII on BX motherboard, 3 RAM slots. I started with a 64MB stick, later I added a 128MB stick, and even later a 256MB stick. 448MB total, seems an odd number but it worked perfectly.
I was recently comparing Tualatin 1.4 GHz with Prescott 3 GHz, before you say it's nonsense, I was trying to calculate some performance per MHz and I was pretty shocked that it's not that bad for Pentium 4, but I never tester Willamette, I guess later Northwood and Prescott had slightly better energy efficiency. What we believe today about Pentium 4 are mostly myths. People were just shocked back in the day by those TDPs, but that's understandable when you jumped from like 30W to 80W, which is still low TDP from today point of view. 😀 Also, later P4 had advantage of dual channel and DDR memory, it was not only about CPU.
Another problem for Tualatin was very limited amount of motherboards which could accept it and also, many of those MBs were so outdated in that period of time. Which is even bigger problem for AMD, those MBs were crazy, like AMD MB from 2003 still doesn't support USB keyboard? WTF??? Intel MBs supported USB keyboards already in 90s.
The main reason why Tualatin and first P4s are that rare is that people just didn't need it, in 2003, most of people I knew still had some common Pentium III or even worse and before games like Doom 3 or FarCry were released, you had no reason to upgrade it and in 2004, that was already prescott time, you could buy a cheap Celeron D with prescott core and it was totaly fine for games.
There are even myths about temperatures, like that P4 is really hot, it's not, Athlons XP on similar performance level as your P4 were hotter, especially with coolers which were common on socket 462. 😀 Some later P4, let's say 2.8 GHz northwood had totaly fine temperature even with stock cooler with fan on 5V to make it silent.
So, was it great architecture with potential to the future? Probably not, but was it that bad as people say? Definitely not. BTW, cache matters, even when I said Celeron D was fine for games, there was still pretty high difference compared to "full blooded" (as we say in Czech) Pentium 4 in gaming performence.
Speed of whole system, how it is responding, how folders are opening etc...that was everything really slow even on Tualatin 1.4 with Win XP, because of SDRAM 133 MHz and other outdated features, so in that time, going from some PIII 866 MHz to Tualatin was probably jump, but it was slow anyway, I would just wait another 1-2 years and upgrade to Pentium 4 or maybe some Athlon XP, but you should know that Athlon XP still didn't have dual channel, AMD had dual channel on socket 939 for the first time, that's ridiculous. So I would probably buy some Celeron D or older P4 again, sorry AMD, but dual channel made a difference. 😀
2:08 I have exactly this 1GHz PIII for socket 370, I had to order it from France few years ago because it's that rare now. 😀
BTW, we still call it north bridge and south bridge even now, even when these names are not relevant for like 25 years, but habit is habit. 😀 When you say south bridge, everyone knows that you means that chip on down part of your MB.
I have better experiences with VIA chipsets on sc370 MBs than with Intel, everything you put there just works, which is really not the case with Intel Chipsets 810 and 815 with famous problems with IDE controllers and RAM problems, sometimes it was throwing errors while installing windows, while with VIA chipset everything always worked fine. You still had to set jumpers correctly for FSB and such things on Intel Chipsets, I would say that VIA chipsets for sc 370 were like 1-2 years in the future compared to intel, no jumpers anymore, you just installed a new CPU and it worked automaticaly. BTW, CL2 SDRAM are pretty much useless because many of those MBs won't let you set CL2 in bios, sometiems you have to choose between CL2.5 and CL3. And SDRAM are now more expensive than DDR1, those sellers are really crazy.
Installing standard 370 cooler on Tualatin needs more force, but it's mostly possible, I would say that sc 370 CPUs have all such a low TDP, that cooler doesn't matter if it is not something really bad. What I love about those coolers is that it was compatible even with AMD sc 462, so you can use later 462 cooler for your Pentium III, which is cool. Funny is that chipsets on sc 462 motheboards are hotter than Pentium III CPUs.
For socket 478, I still keep my old Zalman from like 2007. Once I tried to delid Pentium 4, but I delided it more than I planned, I guess that core was supposed to stay on PCB. When it's soldered, I think is pretty much pointless to delid it. Many coolers for sc 478 were already full aluminium and that copper heatspreader actually helps. I realized that while testing Athlon XPs with naked core, when you install cooler with extra copper plate on bottom side (between core and actual heatsink), it has much better temperatures than same looking heatsink without that copper plate.
I had some problems with 5V when I combined Tualatin with GeForce 6600, my 5V cable just melted, but even later AGP cards already use only 12V from additional power connector, so it's more safe. I also noticed that some socket 462 boards actually have 12V connector for CPU similarly as P4, so I guess some manufacturers decided to use the same solution as P4. It's better to have some old PSU from like 2006-2010, it has much better cables (bigger diameter) and better 5V line and even molex connectors are better quality than today.
I think they should never have released anything like P4 1.4 GHz because that architecture was just meant for higher frequencies and this caused many of that hate against P4, because it's obvious that Tualatin had better performence per MHz than Willamette. So why to buy some 1.4 GHz P4 when you can buy 2.4 GHz or even more?
Pentium 4 had so much growth. FSB started with 400 and went to 800 and higher. RDRAM, SDRAM, DDR, DDR dual. Cache drastically increased. HT, two cores. 180nm down to 65.
@@philscomputerlab Yeah and sorry for really long comment, I alwas forget about time and how it is long when I type something. 😀 I am still not sure about how important was dual channel, in some tests, it's massive difference (so P4 totaly destroyes Athlon) but in some other tests or even some games, there is no difference or Athlon can be even better without dual channel, this is still very confusing for me and I will definitely test it more.
What's with the holes through the IHS ? I am intrigued
What are the results for the P III vs the later P4 when the P III is overclocked please, especially with that bigger monster cooler please?
Hey Phil, my apologies for not asking a video appropriate question, but I have a 286 and 4 sticks of 1MB ram, the motherboard I have is an Octek Fox II Rev 3.0 and it had 12 DIP memory chips(that I removed), which accounted for 1MB of ram total. After putting the 4x1mb sticks, my system only detects 1MB and I get a parity error very often, unless I remove 2 sticks and run with 512k of ram. Do you happen to know why the ram isn't detected as 4mb and why it crashes with 4 sticks? Also, I forgot to say, the motherboard's manual specifies that it can run up to 4mb of ram, and something about bios shadow(which I can't see in my bios for some reason).
I work with 386 and higher, I can only offer generic advice like checking the manual for supported configurations and trying other modules?
Okay, thanks, I'll see if I can get my hands on some more sticks, as the manual implied that the motherboard can run 1mb x 4
Just wondering if there are any GPU bottleneck issues with using the P3 over the P4? I'm only asking because back in 2004 I upgraded from a ATi 9800 Pro to an ATi X800 XL and my poor Athlon XP 3000+ made the X800 perform worse than the 9800! (literally talking about 10-25 fps lows and over 80 fps highs with constant stuttering on Half Life 2, regardless of resolution or detail settings) I'd hate to see someone in the same position as I was, especially considering how much of a premium some of the top performing retro cards are going for now.
Odd, as the X800 is basically two 9800s combined, there shouldn't be much of a difference.
It is really weird, knew it was CPU bottle necking once I swapped from an XP Athlon to a Pentium 4 Prescott Core and got similar FPS to the Toms Hardware performance graphs. Weirdly enough though the XP Athlon worked perfectly with a Geforce 6800, it might have been driver overhead (AI Catalyst was new at the time) or possibly the N-Force chipset wasn't updated for the newer ATi cards (wouldn't be the first time Nvidia did dodgy stuff like that).
Ah yes, driver overhead is certainly possible. Under 98 it's much more of mess than under XP, XP is more consistent.
with VIA chipsets, i often had problems getting AGP cards to work in their AGP mode, this was due to one of the PCI to PCI bridges using the basic driver instead of the PCI to AGP driver, which i had to install manually, works great afterwards though :)
Will be awesome to hear you talk about the times AMD was on top in IPC
ddr1 was introduced on intel 845? isn't there a socket 370 with ddr1? also, the important question; does that mobo support tualatin. i've seen ppl do 1.6ghz
yeah i have a via-based server board with 2x socket 370 and ddr1 ram. i think it came out later than the 845 though.
@@talvisota327 did do a google and 845 is the earliest i see intel supporting it
I found an old 250W power sypply AT format with 8P and 9P connectors (No 20/24 pin and 4pin). What are they? I've never seen before such connectors. They look ancient :) and btw, the PSU works.
AT connectors are for mostly pre-Pentium boards, 486, 386, and even older: th-cam.com/video/pC4JCPb4v1Q/w-d-xo.html
Hi Phil,on the via chipset with the agp issue, do you mean to put the value from DA to EA,are we taking about the same? Thanks for answer 🖒🖒🖒
Hmm, it should go from 0 to 256 but in HEX.
Would've loved to send him a bunch of motherboards (and related HW) out of my stash for testing/benchmarking if I knew about this video topic beforehand. I have several of those "rare" S370 Tualatin capable boards with DDR-RAM, an Asus BX board that has been modified for Tualatin support (and is snappier than any i815), a S423 RDRAM board that does *not* need the AUX power connector for some reason (I also have a S423 to S478 adapter to go with it), a S478 i845 Gigabyte board with SD-RAM (comparison of how much of a performance difference it causes vs. RDRAM in those early days?), plus several CPUs not tested here, like the non-server version of the PIII Tualatin 1.4GHz with 256KB Cache as opposed to 512KB and last but not least the super slow 1.*3*GHz S423 P4 Willamette along with several faster models up to the 2GHz version (fastest S423 CPU released). Also all of the boards are fully recapped, so no junk caps (like the Teapo/Yageo I'm seeing right now on the PCPartner motherboard at the 19:00 mark) where you just don't know if those cause stability issues or if it's something else...
PS: If you're planning on doing a similar video with Athlons, I still have a "golden finger" somewhere for the Slot A Athlons
PPS: Startech does nothing but rebadge (with a few exceptions usually cheap chinese) stuff and add a giant markup, so if you don't mind waiting a while longer for stuff to arrive, you can buy straight from chinese sellers on ebay, dealextreme, banggood or whatever and usually get the same thing much much cheaper. Or just get an older, used high end cooler (Thermaltake, Coolermaster, Zalman or whatever) and replace just the fan with a new one.
Wall of text warning:
I personally like to use the very good Zalman CNPS-7000/7500/8500 series coolers (which can all be mounted on S478/S462/S775/S754/S939) because one can readily get those used on ebay, disassemble the fans and replace the 2 ball bearings (693ZZ if I remember correctly), making it run quiet/like new again if the original bearings were shot.
For S370 or lower power Socket A builds, the good old Arctic Cooling Copper Silent II has proven itself to be very useful. On Coppermine CPUs even more so since it has the 3-hole mounting clamps, it's complete overkill cooling capacity wise and most of all: it's quiet compared to those 60mm (or smaller) turbine noise floor fans that were so common back then.
If the cheap sleeve bearings on those Arctic Cooling coolers get noisy/scratchy, peel off the label and add a drop of fairly thick oil (I use 85W90 gearbox oil since a bottle of it was left in the garage from the previous guy who lived here lol) into the bearing and run it for a while so it seeps in. Seems like almost everything back then still had a way of DIY fixing even if it wasn't endorsed by the manufacturer, while most of the stuff from today is intentionally designed to make fixing as hard as possible, if not impossible (gluing/sealing things shut etc., which they now even do on simple things like fan bearings :( ...)
Back in the day, I had a P4 1.6. I currently have several P4 CPUs but I am not going to build a Willamette machine. I am going to build a 2.4GHz Northwood instead. The reason being is I need a dedicated machine for Star Force and SecuROM games and I need a little more power than a Willamette can muster. To play the early XP games I played on my P4, I am building a PIII 1000EB with a similar GF3 card to what I had back then. I don't think I will be hampered by a 512MB memory limit. My P4 had 1GB of DDR RAM.
I also have a P4 650 HT machine with a 7800GTX
Back in the day and after using P2 400mhz for years I skipped the Pentium 3 & 4s and I went AMD Thunderbird all the way!
Skipping the P4 was a good thing,. Skipping the P3 not so much, they were nice chips, on par with AMD's offerings but Intel decided they won't sell as much.
So did I. I had a 1 GHz Athlon Thunderbird system in January 2001.
At the time I was shocked at how fast it was.
I used an enormous (at the time) 640 megabytes of RAM.
My 90 dollar Duron munched P3s.
Random question, but why did old motherboards have such giant caps?
i guess solid caps were still expensive so they just used conventional ones
I really do regret not getting the Tualatin at the time. I had a 1.5GHz Wilamette, and my friends AMD systems we're wrecking me in framerates and cost. The only saving grace was Quake 3. Ah, early 2000's PC's.
Are you can test Pentium III-S Tualatin 1266 Mhz ?
Please test the standard non S version of the Pentium III Tualatin.
Hmm I'm not sure I have that model, I got the III-S years ago for just a few dollars, it never occured to me to pickup the lesser versions to be honest.
phil can you make a P3 tualatin vs the fastest S478 P4 review? it would be interesting to see how the do at the same speed so 1.4 vs 1.4 but with al the cache etc on there normal speeds/modes