THE 12 VIRTUES OF THE RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNER: HUMILITY: The quality of having a modest or low view of one's own importance. It involves the recognition of one's limitations, imperfections, and fallibility, and the willingness to acknowledge and learn from one's mistakes. A humble person is not overly concerned with status, recognition, or personal gain, but instead focuses on serving others and contributing to the greater good. TEMPERANCE: The quality of having restraint and moderation in one's emotions, behaviors, and desires. Temperance is an important virtue as it helps people maintain self-control and avoid impulsive or harmful actions. GRATITUDE: A feeling or expression of thankfulness or appreciation for something that one has received or experienced. It is a positive emotion that can be directed towards others or towards life in general, and is often associated with feelings of joy, contentment, and well-being. Gratitude can also be a practice, in which individuals consciously focus on the good things in their lives and cultivate a sense of appreciation for them. SOBRIETY: The quality of being free from the effects of alcohol or drugs. It can also be used more broadly to describe a lifestyle or attitude that emphasizes moderation, restraint, and self-control. MORAL DUTY: The obligation to act in a certain way that is consistent with moral principles or values. It is the responsibility that one has to do what is right and ethical, regardless of personal gain or benefit. PATRIOTISM: Patriotism generally refers to the love, devotion, and loyalty that a person feels toward their country. It often includes a sense of pride in one's country, its history, culture, and achievements. MINDFULNESS: The state of being present and fully engaged in the current moment, paying attention to one's thoughts, feelings, and surroundings. It involves being non-judgmental and accepting of what is happening in the present moment. Having situational awareness. CONSIDERATION: Involves taking into account the needs and feelings of others before making a decision or taking action. It is the act of being thoughtful and showing regard for the well-being of others. COURAGE: Involves taking action to protect others in the face of danger or adversity, and being willing to stand up for what is right, even when it is difficult or unpopular. It requires both physical and moral strength, as well as a willingness to take risks and face challenges in order to protect others. RESILIENCE: Refers to the ability of an individual or a system to recover from difficult or challenging circumstances. It involves adapting to adversity, maintaining a positive outlook, and bouncing back from setbacks. Resilience can apply to various areas of life, such as personal relationships, health, work, and business. It is not the absence of difficulty or hardship, but rather the ability to cope with and overcome them. Developing resilience can help individuals navigate difficult situations and emerge stronger and more capable. SELF-DISCIPLINE: Self-discipline refers to the ability to control one's behavior, emotions, and desires in order to achieve a goal or fulfill a responsibility. PRUDENCE: Someone who is prudent carefully considers all the available information before making a decision or forming an opinion. This involves being open-minded, objective, and patient in gathering and evaluating evidence, and avoiding hasty or impulsive conclusions. Such a person would be able to weigh the pros and cons of different options, assess the potential risks and benefits, and make a well-informed and reasonable judgment.
The whole "let's not switch calibers in the middle of a war" thing is kind of a more important point than most people realize. Especially since even the people proposing the gun didn't know how good it would actually end up being.
I was going to say that exact thing but keeping an eye on improving weapons should have still been looked at. This is something we are still dealing with to this day.
Kinda ironic that all 3 major Axis powers had trouble with this (Italy with the switch from the 6mm Carcano to the 7mm Carcano, Japan with the switch from 6mm Arisaka to 7mm Airsaka, and Germany with The 8mm Mauser to the 8mm Kurtz) although Germany had this problem to a lesser extent.
@@FishTheJim I wrote it in another comment already, but: "Instead of having generals and theorists write long paragraphs about why adopting a new gun and cartridge in the middle of a war was actually a really good idea they probably should've just let him have a conversation with the soldiers who actually used it in the troop exercises that tested the gun. If you read a lot about it you kinda get the feeling that he ended up trusting common soldiers more than his generals as the years went on and stuff like them refusing to upgun their tanks [before the invasion of France like he ordered instead of during the invasion of Russia] was probably one of the reasons for it."
However, the American idea of having semi-automatic rifles, carbines and submachine guns (3 types of ammunition) was even more controversial if these carbines were (in theory) for rear troops. Theoretically, they could concentrate all their efforts on light automatic weapons with a slightly more powerful cartridge. Well, as the saying goes: "Who will forbid the rich?" ;)
Yes, it's a logistical challenge but it was the least worst option considering the manpower shortage and the need to increase firepower. If anything 8x57mm would never be redundant, the MG42 would be depended on more which is where most of the 8x57mm rounds were being used anyway, the Mauser just couldn't use up 8x57mm at a high rate anyway. It's not a bad thing for the Germans to use up ammo quicker, they NEEDED more firepower! Which is using ammunition quicker. It really would have been a nightmare scenario if the Germans had fully embraced assault rifles from 1942, though the Allied victory was inevitable (fuel, food, industry, Nuclear bombs) it would be with such devastating losses and after much longer period of time.
On the other hand Hitler had to deal with people like Ferdinand Porsche being told repeatedly "no composite powertrains, definitely none" and *still* putting forward his Tiger prototype that used literally tons of strategically vital copper for a petrol-electric drive (I think a St Chamond must have scared Ferdy as a child) The antics of the Nazi industrial oligarchs are amazing to this day.
The myth of 'Nazi efficiency' dies quickly when you actually start digging into how they actually operated. It wasn't until they were actually getting their cities firebombed flat that they actually started trying to do all the manufacturing efficiencies the US did by default.
The Minister of Armaments and War Production was an architect, because Hitler liked him, not because he had any experience running a factory, or supply management. There is a reason the allies gave up plans to assassinate Hitler.
Hitler had to push them and the officer core back throughout the war. There were a lot of good technical specialists that did not see big picture problems - like logistics. Putting more troops on the ground than you can feed is a nonstarter - but Madman Hman wouldn't let them do it! Insane!
Without being able to analyze context, even, because Ian is clearly showing what a dunce Hitler was (one of the reasons his own generals wanted him dead).
@@judsongaiden9878 His generals were pretty stupid too, thought they'd just take Moscow and win as if the Russians would surrender like the French did even though they didn't when Napoleon took Moscow. Hitler says go to the Caucasus and get the oil but his generals are stupid as shit and think tanks and planes run on rainbows and magic. Such a complete joke of an army. Hitler was right about the supply issues too, STGs had problems getting enough ammo and magazines to be used consistently. The box magazines was too expensive to make reliably on that scale at that point. Look how expensive and uncommon SVT, G43, and STG mags are today compared to Garand clips. The STG is a very impressive gun for the time but for an army the scale of the Wehrmacht it was impractical. It might've been better for a smaller highly trained army like the Swiss or a Nordic country but not a several million man army on a 700 Mile front, it just wasn't enough to make a difference.
The M-1 Garand was originally designed for the .276 Pedersen cartridge. That was changed due to all the .30 ammunition and other guns on hand and ready.
@@johngaither9263 And this was done by a nation that had very few supply and production problems. Replacing your main firearms caliber in the middle of a war is not a good idea, but in this case it was such a revolutionary firearm.
Not when the weapon is so clearly vastly superior, and the advantage is inherently linked to the different ammunition. It'd be like refusing to switch to smokeless powder because "we already have all this black powder ammunition!" Logistical headache? Probably. Colossal battlefield advantage? Definitely.
@@_ArsNova Though Adolf had extensive military experience, he was mainly a politician. Logistics are more important at that level, so the argument was a valid one. He is not the first one to make such a mistake. Remember all those conversions of muzzle loaders to breach loading? It probably made sense at the political level. Or just consider if a nation had jumped on the pinfire thing instead of waiting for centerfire cartridges. Hindsight is 20-20.
@@Willy_Tepes I don't disagree that Hitler was certainly NOT a military tactician, and military logistics is often vastly overlooked. However the benefits really did outweigh negatives here. Was it an ideal time to shift ammo production? Of course not. But the huge advantage was undeniable, even to Hitler, a man who repeatedly did everything he could to squash the project.
@@alecmiller2270To be fair jet engines are not much more complicated than regular piston aviation engines, it’s just that weren’t aswell researched and industrialized.
Interesting that this gun was redesignated MP to hide its true nature from Hitler, yet the Soviets later deliberately designed the AK as a submachine gun replacement and had the SKS as a rifle replacement. Of course, the Soviets later realized the AK could do both and adopted it universally, but it is an interesting observation. I remember Ian in his AK vs. Stg-44 video stated that the Germans viewed the Stg-44 as a rifle that can do the role of an SMG while the Soviets viewed the AK as an SMG that can do the role of a rifle, or something to that effect.
In fact the Chinese exactly called their AK-47 (a legit one with the original Soviet data pack, not just some random 762*39 AK) an SMG. The official name of the Type 56 "Assault" is actually "Model 1956 Submachine Gun （1956年式冲锋枪）" 😂
It should have been named Selektiver Feuerkarabiner (SFk-42/43/44). It's not a machinegun (like a Maxim, M1919, or MG42) submachinegun (MP38, MP40, Thompson, or PPSh), or automatic rifle (Chaucer, BAR). Most firearms of that time that were machineguns were automatic fire mode only. Most SMGs except the M1921 and Kp31 were open bolt, full auto only, so putting "machine" in the nomenclature of the MKb42 only made sense if it was full auto fire mode only. Select-Fire Carbine more accurately describes the weapon, without adding a purpose in the name like "Sturm", since soldiers will use their assigned weapons for both the defense and offense.
@@bravo_cj It's also interesting that the Soviets realized the AK could do everything the SKS could and more fairly quickly, discontinuing it's production in 1959 in favor of the AKM while the Chinese stuck with the original Soviet doctrine (albeit with the partial switch to the Type 63) until the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese war where they faced the Vietnamese who had also realized the AK was superior to the SKS during the Vietnam war and had almost completely equipped their front line units with AKs, ironically most of them from China, as well as M16s captured from the ARVN. China quickly realized their mistake and began development of the Type 81.
Ian mentioned "MacArthur's excuse", which was that the US had so much surplus 30-06 ammo left over from WWI that it made no sense to adopt the M1 Garand in .276 Pederson. According to "Hatcher's Notebook", all of the WWI ammo was gone by 1936, the year the M1 Garand was introduced, so "MacArthur's excuse" was not valid. Ironically, .276 Pederson was less expensive and used fewer strategic resources (copper and lead) than 30-06, so it ended up costing the US quite a bit more money in the long run.
Yes, it wasn't "NATO" that wanted a full-power cartridge, it was the U.S.. European countries were looking at getting an intermediate cartridge. The FAL was apparently originally meant to use an intermediate cartridge, but had to be redesigned to use the 7.62x51mm round. I imagine that there were more than a few words said when the U.S. decided to bring in the 5.56mm round :P
@@thhseeking Yes. The US brass had decided that their grandfathers had perfect performance with the 1906 load and essentially replicated it with the slightly shorter 7.62x51. The test of the world disageed.
Having just finished Volker Ullrich's 2 part biography of Hitler, this sort of "work around HItler's whims" thing happened all the time and got more common post-1939.
Just a byproduct of Führerprinzip, where everything the leader thinks or believes essentially becomes law. The same way Hitler ordered his troops to 'just stop retreating' in the east, forcing generals like Walter Model to have to hatch convoluted schemes just to perform elementary strategic withdrawals.
Speaking of Sturmgewehr, I visited a firearms/weapons exhibit at the historic Idaho State Penitentiary yesterday. It was the type of place I expected Ian to show up at to examine something in their back room. Yes, they had a Sturmgewehr along with a Stoner M63 that was Stoner’s personal rifle. Cool place, even more cool because I had no idea it was there. It’s in a re-purposed building within the penitentiary walls, the tour guide casually pointed it out at the tour’s conclusion.
I went there in 2017 and was expecting a collection of shanks/prison guard weapons. When I walked through the door, I was shocked at the displays, similar to a museum you'd see in Europe or at Dragon Man's.
As far as I read into the book "Sturmgewehr 44 Vorgänger, Entwicklung und Fertigung der revolutionärsten Infanteriewaffe" by Dieter Handrich the reason for the renaming from MKb to MP was following incident: The MKb was rejected, but moustache man requested other weapons, one of those weapons was a sub machine gun with better range. And some coordinators thought, what about this MKb thing? Let's skip this "all soldiers get one" thing and just use is as a SMG replacement. The MKb guys were happy because they were able to continue the development and the coordinators were happy because they thought to present moustache man an improved MP.
What I understood the original plan was to replace all weapons including MG34/42 with the MKbs. Then they switched the program to more modest to just add SMGs.
@@_ArsNova As far as I know the book is the original German version of "Sturmgewehr! From Firepower to Striking Power" were I think Ian got his information from. Therefore I'm wondering why his story sound a little bit different. I don't own the English version, so I can't tell if its because of a variation or a mistranslation or something else.
@@Grasyl I don't own the German version, partly because it is next to unobtanium and expensive, and partly because my German is far too rusty to bother. It may be the case that a lot was lost in translation and the fact that the English version would have been heavily edited by Collector Grade.
@@okaro6595 The original plan was to replace all weapon expect the MGs. But moustache man prevented this. What he wanted was more reach to keep "the Russians" at bay. Therefore he ordered a semiautomatic rifle with a scope for every soldier and later a SMG with ~300m range. The rifle would have been the G41(w) later G43/K43 with ZF-41 and the 300m SMG would be the MKb.42(h) later MP43/1 but moustache man declared the MKb.42(h) to be to clumsy and big. The idea to replace the MGs in the lMG role was a later one. The sMG role was not in question. All MG34/42 would have been removed from squad level and moved to company level as SMG on tripos.
Thank you for your your detailed look at this. You are one of the few firearms historians that are around anymore. One of the good guys. Me and mine watch you often.
They really pulled the classic little kid/parent argument of, "Hey, can we have this?" "No" "Hey, how about now?" "I said no." "Heeeeeyyy....so....about the thing." "I said NO and it's final!" "You know, they have a good point, just do it." "*sigh* Okay, fine. Do the thing." "YAY!"
I made a face when he mentioned thoughts of replacing the MG-42 with this. But then I thought about it. I mean, in modern times, the AR has become so universal that it can be anything from a standard assault rifle, to a compact carbine, to a DMR, to a light machine gun. It would actually be interesting seeing more specialized STG models, had it evolved like current assault rifles.
Wasn't that basically what they had originally intended for the Marine Corps with the M27 IAR? Have a heavy barrel so individual troops can provide more sustained fire in the absence and fill the role of the 249 in a pinch?
Basically, everyone tried to do that with select fire rifles. The M14 was supposed to replace the M1 and BAR, and the M16 was intended to do the same. But each time, they eventually reintroduced a SAW.
@@temper44 exactly, the German doctrine dictates that the squad will stand as long as the MG is operational Your squad can be wiped out except the MG and it will still be a squad but only our MG can get shot and your whole squad is dispersed The MG was more important than even the SL
I'm not even a gun fan, and although I grew up in the North of Ireland during the 80s and 90s, and _saw_ a wide variety of firearms on a daily basis for most of my young life, I never developed any great love of guns. however, the history which Iain imparts into his videos makes the most fascinating videos.😊 I love watching your work, Iain. all the best, Chief.
@@joshmitchell1002 One can appreciate the engineering behind a firearm. Or be interested in its history. One can even participate in and enjoy shooting sports. One can appreciate a firearm in its performance. But love a firearm? I reserve the word love for my wife, my kids and family.
Hitler: I was a combat veteran of WWI who was awarded the Iron Cross! No one can tell me what is the best infantry rifle! Himmler: I was a chicken farmer with a club foot. If my field officers think this is a good rifle, I'll take their word for it. It's a weird situation when Himmler can play the role of the reasonable man.
Himmler was never just a chicken farmer. He was an agronomy student. This is just wartime Allied propaganda. This is the equivalent of calling a construction engineer a worker. Its disparaging to the profession. Yes he dealt with animals and birds on a farm but only as part of his college level studies for a year. Read up on the guy he was solid middle class. And by the way Himmler would have never called himself just a chicken farmer in a disparaging way. He was always proud of going to college in an era when that was still unusual.
Kennedy and McNamara thought the same way as Hitler when the AR-15/M-16 was first proposed to stream line weapons procurement, staying with the over costly and time consuming M-14.. It was the troops in the field requesting more M-16's that changed their minds..
I encountered a gentleman who owned a Hanel some years back at the Big Reno Gun Show. When chatting with him I mistakenly ID the gun as an STG-44 but he was quick to correct me that it was actually a Haenal - Schmeiiser MKb.42(H). He had an interesting story about the gun (recovered by a US GI during the Battle of the Bulge), and he allowed me to handle and take photos of it. I knew that Larry Vickers was in the market for one and as it turned out the gun was indeed for sale to the right buyer. I passed the owner's contact info on to Larry, but I don't believe a deal was ever made as the asking price was not within Larry's budget. One thing about the Haenal that I distinctly remember was the heft. I was far heavier than I expected even though it was a stamped sheet metal gun. My little wife also hefted the Haenel and she commented that it was far heavier than it appeared. This chance encounter still stands out as a truly unique highlight for me as a WWII arms fan. - Steve Gibbons - US Night Vision Corporation
@@danieldykstra3079 they're bloody awful. Coming out with deliberate nonsense like "ZOMG the Ho229 was a stealth jet in 1945!!1one" which is patent bollocks to anyone with the most basic understanding of the timelines of the technology. Actively ahistorical. Never mind all their ancient aliens shit.
In my time in the Dutch army, my personal weapons were a FN FAL 7.62 and an UZI 9 mm. Later in my life, I had the luck of shooting a Sturmgewehr in the wood behind the farm of a Czech friend of mine, his grandfather captured the gun at the end of the war. I must say that it is in full auto very controllable. At least compared to the FAL.
Another important event was that these things were air dropped into the Korsun Pocket and the soldiers quickly figured out how to use them to keep the momentum of an assault which is impossible with a bolt action rifle. The realized they could fire AND move all the way to the target instead of having to wait for the MG42 to reposition. You can argue the StG-44 was key in the night breakout which took the Soviets by surprise initially.
Here's an interesting thought. I wonder if production simplification was a factor for the adoption of the MP44 to replace the MP40 in any way, aka producing more standard 8mm bullets and less 9mm bullets? Was there standardization of bullet weights/sizes between the standard 8mm Mauser and 8mm Kurtz where even though the shell case of 8mm Kurtz itself was a new round? Was there at least an ability for the new cartridge to at least use the same 8mm bullets they already had and were producing?
Of course, after WWII, the US had Rene Studler, who was militantly opposed to intermediate caliber cartridges. He seemed to have most of the same reactions as Hitler.
From a firearms development perspective it would have been interesting if it would have been adopted earlier. I could see the germans developing an open bolt model with a long heavy barrel and a bipod a la RPK
A good presentation as usual, Ian. The US didn't adopt an assault rifle until the Vietnam War when they realized that US soldiers and marines were seriously outgunned when facing the VC and NVA troops in Vietnam jungles. US troops on the Western Front in World War II never came up against massed numbers of German troops all armed with StG44's like the Russian troops on the eastern front.
A few years ago at the CLA game fair in the UK one of the major gun manufacturers was showing completed apprentice projects. One was a fully working reduced size STG44 in 22lr. OMG it was a beautiful.
PSA are in a pre-production of making the “clone accurate” STG 44. There making them in 55.6, 7.62, 300 black out, and it’s original round 8mm. Will be cool if you can do a side by side comparison between a WW2 and PSA STG 44 in the future.
It reminds me a bit of the story of the Me 262 and Hitler's intervention of it being a used as the Blitzbomber and the Luftwaffe's (largely successful) attempts to work around that
I certainly enjoyed this video mate. I don't have much practical experience with any firearms but what I do have is a certain thirst for this sort of historical knowledge. I do hope you pop more of these armchair videos in the future, cheers.
Almost. When he heard that soldiers loved the emidate firepower the weapons had, he ordered rushed production. Though they were never fully tested and had stoppage problems out in the field. They where the precursor to the assault rifle.
Great video Ian, even if I was already familiar with the material! Any books you'd recommend on the subject? I'm specifically interested in the early troop trials of the Mkb 42 and MP 43.
@@ForgottenWeapons Ian, I am not a gun nerd but I AM interested in the history of their development. Can you recommend a book that explains that, and defines gun categories?
@@roygardiner2229 The introductory chapters of an older copy of "Small Arms of the World" may be a good start. If you are in the US you should be able to pick one up fairly cheaply.
To correct your ending, Ian. Most of NATO wanted to adopt an intermediate cartridge from the start & the US forced 7.62x51mm on us, only to abandon it 10 years later when the US figured out intermediate cartridge “assault rifles” were the way to go after all.
Uhh. For its day 7.62x51 WAS an intermediate cartridge. Hell half the point was using advancements in powder to make a smaller cartridge with the same ballistics of 30-06. All the documentation of its development states as much. And the cartridge NATO liked wasn't much better. Like .280 Enfield is about the same size (in length) to .308. There's not much difference there. All you have to do is even look at the Magazine for the original trials EM1/2 and FAL. Those are the size of M14 mags. No matter WHICH round we chose, it was eventually going to be replaced by a true intermediate cartridge later on.
@@claytonmachine12 LOL! You claim 7.62x51 is an intermediate cartridge, then in the very next sentence explain that it’s a full power cartridge. 😂 The physical dimensions of the cartridge tell you nothing about chamber pressure, muzzle energy, velocities etc. Don’t comment if you don’t know what you’re talking about kid. Although starting your nonsense with “Uhh” did make me literally LOL, thanks for the laugh.
@@nicholsliwilson No I explain the purpose of the round. Go read the documentation from the day. The US Ordinance Department LITTERALY calls it an intermediate cartridge. And an intermediate cartridge by definition does not need to be weaker. Than an OLDER. OUTDATED. cartridge, using OUTDATED powder. Again. which was part of the point of the program. An intermediate cartridge is a smaller lighter cartridge. Which .308 IS to 30-06.
@@nicholsliwilson And yes. The size tells me nothing about things like chamber pressure etc. So if we go by your thoughts. the .280 Brit must be WEAKER than .308. Since you scoff at an intermediate cartridge being ballistic similar to a full size rifle cartridge. So then .280 brit is WEAK than .308, while being the same size and weight. Your not making the case for .280 with that argument.
BTW Gewehr could mean almost anything although these days it is mostly used to describe long handheld guns but to the present day a German soldier's Seitengewehr (lit.: side arm) is his bayonet. Generally Gewehre fall into one of two types: Büchsen (rifled) or Flinten (smooth bore).
With regards to the lack of grenade launching ability, I'm sure that would have been developed had the rifle had more time before the war ended. The alternate-WWII anime series World Witches features StG 44s fitted with underbarrel launchers derived from the Leuchtpistole/Sturmpistole, not especially redesigned besides removing the pistol grip; the Brave Witches IMFDB page has some examples (I say semi-selfishly, as I built all those pages lol). I've seen photoshops of similar setups too, and it's kind of a shame it didn't actually happen, as it's a remarkably similar setup to what we now think of as the standard way to give rifles grenade launching capability (underbarrel launcher).
Given that the Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek were coming into use and that probably reduced the need for grenade launcher. A StG 44 modified to fire a grenade would probably only have about 40% of the range. I'm thinking the 12 man squad would end up still with the MG42 maybe 1 or two G.43 with the rest of the squad StG44.
Speer was Hitler's favourite in the late war; until he tried to convince Hitler that "Maybe this scorched earth, burn Germany to the ground stuff is a bit extreme.."
@@dalemoss4684 Hitler trusted Speer above all others. Appointing Speer as armaments Minister was Hitler’s best decision ever. Speer performed miracles of production that lengthened the war by at least a year.
Hitler felt that the KAR 98 would serve well enough, since it was almost the same rifle he used in WWI. They already had thousands of them and literally tons of ammo for them.
I have the MKB -42(H) all steel model by Shoei ,and an MP -44 dummy from IMA.Its all original parts on a solid aluminum receiver. They don't fire but I love them both ,and within my budget.Great program ,Ian.
i'm glad there is now a good central source for this, when i was first researching this 15 year ago i kept finding all sorts of nonsense or contradictory information (in part due to how infested forums where back then with "those" guys" and it was very time/effort consuming sifting trough the bad info to get the more credible parts
Wait so the SS got Sturmgewehre and came back asking for a belt fed version. So basically M249 SAW? They really were ahead of their time in small arms development.
The HK G3 also traces its origins back to the Mauser StG 45 which used delayed roller blow back mechanism like the G3. The StG 45 was much lighter than the StG 44 and likely a better weapon.
Full value of the Stg could only be realised after changes in infantry tactics. They are substantially different with select fire availability, even compared to semi-auto rifle equipped units. Obviously replacing the MG42 with Stg isn't sensible given the general purpose functionality and belt-fed, quick change barrel allowing for continuous metal rain on the enemy even beyond the effective range of the Stg. The Stg works better with the MG42 by providing substantial supporting fire while an MG is being moved to capitalise on gains during an engagement.
My wife got me one when they first came to the United States. It came in a wooden box like the ones the Nazis would have shipped it in. My wife got it for me for Father's.
Thanks for a great video! Could you please give your opinion on the "possible MKBs at Stalingrad" debacle? They are literally in every WW2 video game now, and fanboys are defending it saying there was the Kholm pocket drop of MKBs or something. But there aren't really any logical sources of why would they appear in Stalingrad.
I love the irony in changing the name from a rifle/carbine designation to an smg designation while also switching from open bolt to closed bolt considering general conventions
Also, to be entirely fair to Adolf, the ammunition supply is a legitimate concern, it's not like he was talking completely out of where the sun doesn't shine in that regard. Guess it's a good thing over all that they wasted two years before making it into service for the rest of the world though.
Probably but I'm of the mind that adopting the Mkb and 8mm Kurz before Operation Barabrossa wouldn't have made a whole world of difference. The German war machine had much bigger problems than being stuck with bolt action rifles.
not unusual when the Moustache Man was in charge, the Me262A Fighterjets combat debut was delayed because of his decision to convert and use Fighterjet in Bomber/Fighterbomber Role.
@@Sturminfantrist Unlike there, here he kind of had a point, at least as far as potential supply problems were concerned. And the German logistics must have been a nightmare with how many different things they were using already by that point.
Not completely, but you might also consider that substantial ammounts of infantry ammo got burned with the infantry doctrine centered around the mg34 and mg42 doctrines. German squads had around 7 dudes with just the basic K98k and 2 people managing one mg (1 loader). And that mg was meant to provide the firepower for the whole squad so that they could advance. In a book i read from a german sharpshooter - Sepp Allerberger - lot of soldiers or at least the smart ones didn't want to carry that mg because of the huge responsibility of having to give cover fire for everybody else and making up for the lack of firepower of their comrades but also they were the biggest threat to the enemies and hence most of the enemy fire would concentrate on the MG lowering your chances of survival quite a lot. And once the mg is down the rest of the German squad was much less of a threat. So due to it's role and also given it's insane firerate those mgs rocked through a lot of ammo which is also why in so many pictures you see german soldiers carrying ammo boxes. I would assume that with the StG44 implemented not only would the squad's firepower and effectiveness have increased but overall ammo consumption possibly would've been the same or similar. It's just not one person burning all of it but the whole squad individually from different angles.
@@kabakaprime5127 Which still comes back to the *one* legitimate point Adolf made against this rifle. The fact that it used a completely new round that *nothing* else in the German inventory used. Too many different rounds in use can be a logistical pain in the posterior, just ask the Italians.
It’s been suggested that AH had a negative impact on the development of a German 'assault rifle' as far back as 1941, but the effect, if any, was probably minimal because no prototype weapons of this class even existed then. Evaluations continued (as this video indicates) as machine pistol programs, but they weren't even produced for field trials until late 1942 / early 1943. AH did indeed order suspension of these programs but he changed his mind when they produced positive results. In April 1944, he ordered it re-designated MP 44. Three months later (when Hitler consulted his commanders about the Eastern Front) the word "rifle" was used and he was told men at the front needed more of them. Initially angry that his order concerning 'rifles' hadn't been adhered to, he then took the opportunity to test fire an MP 44. Highly impressed, he dubbed it the Sturmgewehr, meaning storm rifle; the weapons were shipped to the Eastern Front in late 1944.
Please tell us the exact differences between pistol, intermediate and full power cartridges. What are the defining specifics regarding size, velocity and bullet weight, For example: at what point does an intermediate cartridge become a full power cartridge?
I read somewhere that early versions of the weapon were air-dropped into the Demyansk and/or Kholm pockets in the winter of ‘41-‘42, and that the survivors of those pockets credited their survival to the effectiveness of those weapons. If that’s true the guns were probably the Walther versions, which would be pretty interesting.
It is possible that some of the very first test batch of MKb-42(H) rifles were air-dropped into Cholm, but there is no hard evidence proving it. The Soviets claimed to have captured one there (s/n 505), but they say it was taken a few months before it could have been there.
@@ForgottenWeapons Yes, just as the Russians today repeatedly claim destroying more NATO weapon systems before any entered Ukraine. They must have fortune tellers in the Krem.
A leader has to make countless decisions on a daily basis and it is perfectly normal for some to be better on hindsight. What is more important is that he created the environment and spirit to make these achievements possible.
STG44 It was the beginning of "Assault rifle" Look at the appearance of it. It has been produced since 1944. Its design is beautiful that transcends time.
Always remember that none of this going a different way could have changed the outcome of WW2. It may have increased the cost in men and materials to the allies, it may have made Berlin glow in the dark for a few decades but that’s all. Germany lost because the allies had more men and vastly more industrial capacity. Those are what win big wars.
Brandon Herrera has a video about this topic. While there are cosmetic similarities, and possibly copied ergonomics to some degree, the AK operating mechanism is basically a M1 Garand
It's a case of form follows function . Most modern battle rifles and assault rifles have a similar look. Gas piston on top because it's the best position for it.
@@CRL_One Yep... I should have clarified, I meant, cosmetically... I think Mr. Kalashnikov got some inspiration from the cosmetic style.... There was a pretty good movie about him, and the design/development of the AK-47. It came out a couple years ago. It's not the best movie, but if one is an AK-47 fan (which I am), it's interesting.... I have a Mak90 and SAM7SF in display cases on the wall behind me, and keep looking at them, and the thumbnail in Ian's video.
Get Entered to WIN this legendary PTR44 Sturmgewehr!
go.getenteredtowin.com/forgottenweapons
DEADLINE to ENTER is 05/26/23 @ 11:59pm (PST).
Ian, what about all your European / UK fans!!!! I'd love to have a chance to win that, but we aren't allowed full bore semi autos in the UK!!!
unfortunately I can't enter the competition as a frenchman in france ..
I entered and bought that $50 mat. When does my PTR44 get here???
THE 12 VIRTUES OF THE RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNER:
HUMILITY: The quality of having a modest or low view of one's own importance. It involves the recognition of one's limitations, imperfections, and fallibility, and the willingness to acknowledge and learn from one's mistakes. A humble person is not overly concerned with status, recognition, or personal gain, but instead focuses on serving others and contributing to the greater good.
TEMPERANCE: The quality of having restraint and moderation in one's emotions, behaviors, and desires. Temperance is an important virtue as it helps people maintain self-control and avoid impulsive or harmful actions.
GRATITUDE: A feeling or expression of thankfulness or appreciation for something that one has received or experienced. It is a positive emotion that can be directed towards others or towards life in general, and is often associated with feelings of joy, contentment, and well-being. Gratitude can also be a practice, in which individuals consciously focus on the good things in their lives and cultivate a sense of appreciation for them.
SOBRIETY: The quality of being free from the effects of alcohol or drugs. It can also be used more broadly to describe a lifestyle or attitude that emphasizes moderation, restraint, and self-control.
MORAL DUTY: The obligation to act in a certain way that is consistent with moral principles or values. It is the responsibility that one has to do what is right and ethical, regardless of personal gain or benefit.
PATRIOTISM: Patriotism generally refers to the love, devotion, and loyalty that a person feels toward their country. It often includes a sense of pride in one's country, its history, culture, and achievements.
MINDFULNESS: The state of being present and fully engaged in the current moment, paying attention to one's thoughts, feelings, and surroundings. It involves being non-judgmental and accepting of what is happening in the present moment. Having situational awareness.
CONSIDERATION: Involves taking into account the needs and feelings of others before making a decision or taking action. It is the act of being thoughtful and showing regard for the well-being of others.
COURAGE: Involves taking action to protect others in the face of danger or adversity, and being willing to stand up for what is right, even when it is difficult or unpopular. It requires both physical and moral strength, as well as a willingness to take risks and face challenges in order to protect others.
RESILIENCE: Refers to the ability of an individual or a system to recover from difficult or challenging circumstances. It involves adapting to adversity, maintaining a positive outlook, and bouncing back from setbacks. Resilience can apply to various areas of life, such as personal relationships, health, work, and business. It is not the absence of difficulty or hardship, but rather the ability to cope with and overcome them. Developing resilience can help individuals navigate difficult situations and emerge stronger and more capable.
SELF-DISCIPLINE: Self-discipline refers to the ability to control one's behavior, emotions, and desires in order to achieve a goal or fulfill a responsibility.
PRUDENCE: Someone who is prudent carefully considers all the available information before making a decision or forming an opinion. This involves being open-minded, objective, and patient in gathering and evaluating evidence, and avoiding hasty or impulsive conclusions. Such a person would be able to weigh the pros and cons of different options, assess the potential risks and benefits, and make a well-informed and reasonable judgment.
Why did guns like the mauser c96 (pistol caliber carbines) became popular in ww1, then disappear in ww2?
The whole "let's not switch calibers in the middle of a war" thing is kind of a more important point than most people realize.
Especially since even the people proposing the gun didn't know how good it would actually end up being.
I was going to say that exact thing but keeping an eye on improving weapons should have still been looked at. This is something we are still dealing with to this day.
Kinda ironic that all 3 major Axis powers had trouble with this (Italy with the switch from the 6mm Carcano to the 7mm Carcano, Japan with the switch from 6mm Arisaka to 7mm Airsaka, and Germany with The 8mm Mauser to the 8mm Kurtz) although Germany had this problem to a lesser extent.
@@FishTheJim
I wrote it in another comment already, but:
"Instead of having generals and theorists write long paragraphs about why adopting a new gun and cartridge in the middle of a war was actually a really good idea they probably should've just let him have a conversation with the soldiers who actually used it in the troop exercises that tested the gun. If you read a lot about it you kinda get the feeling that he ended up trusting common soldiers more than his generals as the years went on and stuff like them refusing to upgun their tanks [before the invasion of France like he ordered instead of during the invasion of Russia] was probably one of the reasons for it."
However, the American idea of having semi-automatic rifles, carbines and submachine guns (3 types of ammunition) was even more controversial if these carbines were (in theory) for rear troops. Theoretically, they could concentrate all their efforts on light automatic weapons with a slightly more powerful cartridge. Well, as the saying goes: "Who will forbid the rich?" ;)
Yes, it's a logistical challenge but it was the least worst option considering the manpower shortage and the need to increase firepower.
If anything 8x57mm would never be redundant, the MG42 would be depended on more which is where most of the 8x57mm rounds were being used anyway, the Mauser just couldn't use up 8x57mm at a high rate anyway. It's not a bad thing for the Germans to use up ammo quicker, they NEEDED more firepower! Which is using ammunition quicker.
It really would have been a nightmare scenario if the Germans had fully embraced assault rifles from 1942, though the Allied victory was inevitable (fuel, food, industry, Nuclear bombs) it would be with such devastating losses and after much longer period of time.
On the other hand Hitler had to deal with people like Ferdinand Porsche being told repeatedly "no composite powertrains, definitely none" and *still* putting forward his Tiger prototype that used literally tons of strategically vital copper for a petrol-electric drive (I think a St Chamond must have scared Ferdy as a child)
The antics of the Nazi industrial oligarchs are amazing to this day.
The myth of 'Nazi efficiency' dies quickly when you actually start digging into how they actually operated.
It wasn't until they were actually getting their cities firebombed flat that they actually started trying to do all the manufacturing efficiencies the US did by default.
Yeah, the Tiger P and later Elefant/Ferdinand are more testbeds for awesome ideas than practical weapons.
The Minister of Armaments and War Production was an architect, because Hitler liked him, not because he had any experience running a factory, or supply management.
There is a reason the allies gave up plans to assassinate Hitler.
Lots of drugs gossip and infighting sums up ww2 German politics
Hitler had to push them and the officer core back throughout the war. There were a lot of good technical specialists that did not see big picture problems - like logistics. Putting more troops on the ground than you can feed is a nonstarter - but Madman Hman wouldn't let them do it! Insane!
TH-cam demonetisation bot sweating seeing both guns and Hitler on one video 😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Without being able to analyze context, even, because Ian is clearly showing what a dunce Hitler was (one of the reasons his own generals wanted him dead).
@@judsongaiden9878 His generals were pretty stupid too, thought they'd just take Moscow and win as if the Russians would surrender like the French did even though they didn't when Napoleon took Moscow. Hitler says go to the Caucasus and get the oil but his generals are stupid as shit and think tanks and planes run on rainbows and magic. Such a complete joke of an army.
Hitler was right about the supply issues too, STGs had problems getting enough ammo and magazines to be used consistently. The box magazines was too expensive to make reliably on that scale at that point. Look how expensive and uncommon SVT, G43, and STG mags are today compared to Garand clips. The STG is a very impressive gun for the time but for an army the scale of the Wehrmacht it was impractical. It might've been better for a smaller highly trained army like the Swiss or a Nordic country but not a several million man army on a 700 Mile front, it just wasn't enough to make a difference.
@Ferro Equus really hope not
surely you mean salivating instead of sweating.
The "ammo transition in the middle of a war" was a legitimate reason to refuse the idea.
The M-1 Garand was originally designed for the .276 Pedersen cartridge. That was changed due to all the .30 ammunition and other guns on hand and ready.
@@johngaither9263 And this was done by a nation that had very few supply and production problems. Replacing your main firearms caliber in the middle of a war is not a good idea, but in this case it was such a revolutionary firearm.
Not when the weapon is so clearly vastly superior, and the advantage is inherently linked to the different ammunition. It'd be like refusing to switch to smokeless powder because "we already have all this black powder ammunition!"
Logistical headache? Probably. Colossal battlefield advantage? Definitely.
@@_ArsNova Though Adolf had extensive military experience, he was mainly a politician. Logistics are more important at that level, so the argument was a valid one. He is not the first one to make such a mistake. Remember all those conversions of muzzle loaders to breach loading? It probably made sense at the political level. Or just consider if a nation had jumped on the pinfire thing instead of waiting for centerfire cartridges.
Hindsight is 20-20.
@@Willy_Tepes I don't disagree that Hitler was certainly NOT a military tactician, and military logistics is often vastly overlooked. However the benefits really did outweigh negatives here. Was it an ideal time to shift ammo production? Of course not. But the huge advantage was undeniable, even to Hitler, a man who repeatedly did everything he could to squash the project.
I like to believe the official SS weapon requirements were, in fact "Make it more Wolfenstein, and belt fed for more DAKA"
those were Himmlers own words
If only they'd painted all of their vehicles red, they'd have won the war.
@@ComicGladiator300 mph tiger II, if they had just painted it red
Hitler: "Nah, too complicated"; Hitler, later on: "Let's deploy the Maus!"
i picture him saying that in the "Release the Kraken!" tone 😆
lollll and jets
@@alecmiller2270To be fair jet engines are not much more complicated than regular piston aviation engines, it’s just that weren’t aswell researched and industrialized.
@@nickrollstuhlfahrerson8659 they aren't much more complicated in operation, but they definitely are to manufacture
Hearing Ian refer to firepower as dakka put a smile on my face.
WAAAGH! MORE DAKKA!
Ditto for the _Wolfenstein_ reference.
Nice
Ian is one of us
What's HAPPENING, first the pro gamer move, now dakka, want a willd time line
Interesting that this gun was redesignated MP to hide its true nature from Hitler, yet the Soviets later deliberately designed the AK as a submachine gun replacement and had the SKS as a rifle replacement. Of course, the Soviets later realized the AK could do both and adopted it universally, but it is an interesting observation. I remember Ian in his AK vs. Stg-44 video stated that the Germans viewed the Stg-44 as a rifle that can do the role of an SMG while the Soviets viewed the AK as an SMG that can do the role of a rifle, or something to that effect.
Exactly! I remember that video, it was an interesting one, sad it had to go
In fact the Chinese exactly called their AK-47 (a legit one with the original Soviet data pack, not just some random 762*39 AK) an SMG. The official name of the Type 56 "Assault" is actually "Model 1956 Submachine Gun （1956年式冲锋枪）" 😂
I interpreted it as make the STG a faster Kar98 while the AK was make a bigger PPSh. The mid point between the two happened to be the assault rifle.
It should have been named Selektiver Feuerkarabiner (SFk-42/43/44).
It's not a machinegun (like a Maxim, M1919, or MG42) submachinegun (MP38, MP40, Thompson, or PPSh), or automatic rifle (Chaucer, BAR).
Most firearms of that time that were machineguns were automatic fire mode only.
Most SMGs except the M1921 and Kp31 were open bolt, full auto only, so putting "machine" in the nomenclature of the MKb42 only made sense if it was full auto fire mode only.
Select-Fire Carbine more accurately describes the weapon, without adding a purpose in the name like "Sturm", since soldiers will use their assigned weapons for both the defense and offense.
@@bravo_cj It's also interesting that the Soviets realized the AK could do everything the SKS could and more fairly quickly, discontinuing it's production in 1959 in favor of the AKM while the Chinese stuck with the original Soviet doctrine (albeit with the partial switch to the Type 63) until the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese war where they faced the Vietnamese who had also realized the AK was superior to the SKS during the Vietnam war and had almost completely equipped their front line units with AKs, ironically most of them from China, as well as M16s captured from the ARVN. China quickly realized their mistake and began development of the Type 81.
Ian mentioned "MacArthur's excuse", which was that the US had so much surplus 30-06 ammo left over from WWI that it made no sense to adopt the M1 Garand in .276 Pederson. According to "Hatcher's Notebook", all of the WWI ammo was gone by 1936, the year the M1 Garand was introduced, so "MacArthur's excuse" was not valid. Ironically, .276 Pederson was less expensive and used fewer strategic resources (copper and lead) than 30-06, so it ended up costing the US quite a bit more money in the long run.
That is exactly what I got out of the book. There was also a differnece between M1 and M2 ammo. Imagine an M1 Garand and Bren LMG combo in .276P.
Yes, it wasn't "NATO" that wanted a full-power cartridge, it was the U.S.. European countries were looking at getting an intermediate cartridge. The FAL was apparently originally meant to use an intermediate cartridge, but had to be redesigned to use the 7.62x51mm round. I imagine that there were more than a few words said when the U.S. decided to bring in the 5.56mm round :P
@@thhseeking Yes. The US brass had decided that their grandfathers had perfect performance with the 1906 load and essentially replicated it with the slightly shorter 7.62x51. The test of the world disageed.
Don't let facts get in the way of nepotism and established contracts.
Having just finished Volker Ullrich's 2 part biography of Hitler, this sort of "work around HItler's whims" thing happened all the time and got more common post-1939.
Just a byproduct of Führerprinzip, where everything the leader thinks or believes essentially becomes law. The same way Hitler ordered his troops to 'just stop retreating' in the east, forcing generals like Walter Model to have to hatch convoluted schemes just to perform elementary strategic withdrawals.
Almost as if he was a pretty reasonable guy and not some irrational maniac 🤔
@@cash_711 Or propped up to destroy Germany from within...?
@@LRRPFco52 Weimar Republic was doing that just fine on its own.
@@cash_711 Did they effectively almost erase the prime age males of Germany in 5 years?
Speaking of Sturmgewehr, I visited a firearms/weapons exhibit at the historic Idaho State Penitentiary yesterday. It was the type of place I expected Ian to show up at to examine something in their back room. Yes, they had a Sturmgewehr along with a Stoner M63 that was Stoner’s personal rifle. Cool place, even more cool because I had no idea it was there. It’s in a re-purposed building within the penitentiary walls, the tour guide casually pointed it out at the tour’s conclusion.
How did they come about acquiring those? Odd weapons for a prison collection.
@@WALTERBROADDUS Idaho
Thank you for this utterly irrelevant piece of information.
I went there in 2017 and was expecting a collection of shanks/prison guard weapons. When I walked through the door, I was shocked at the displays, similar to a museum you'd see in Europe or at Dragon Man's.
@@haroldburrow4363 that doesn't quite answer the question why a Idaho prison has these items?
As far as I read into the book "Sturmgewehr 44 Vorgänger, Entwicklung und Fertigung der revolutionärsten Infanteriewaffe" by Dieter Handrich the reason for the renaming from MKb to MP was following incident: The MKb was rejected, but moustache man requested other weapons, one of those weapons was a sub machine gun with better range. And some coordinators thought, what about this MKb thing? Let's skip this "all soldiers get one" thing and just use is as a SMG replacement. The MKb guys were happy because they were able to continue the development and the coordinators were happy because they thought to present moustache man an improved MP.
Only in German? Or are there translations?
What I understood the original plan was to replace all weapons including MG34/42 with the MKbs. Then they switched the program to more modest to just add SMGs.
@@_ArsNova As far as I know the book is the original German version of "Sturmgewehr! From Firepower to Striking Power" were I think Ian got his information from. Therefore I'm wondering why his story sound a little bit different. I don't own the English version, so I can't tell if its because of a variation or a mistranslation or something else.
@@Grasyl I don't own the German version, partly because it is next to unobtanium and expensive, and partly because my German is far too rusty to bother. It may be the case that a lot was lost in translation and the fact that the English version would have been heavily edited by Collector Grade.
@@okaro6595 The original plan was to replace all weapon expect the MGs. But moustache man prevented this. What he wanted was more reach to keep "the Russians" at bay. Therefore he ordered a semiautomatic rifle with a scope for every soldier and later a SMG with ~300m range. The rifle would have been the G41(w) later G43/K43 with ZF-41 and the 300m SMG would be the MKb.42(h) later MP43/1 but moustache man declared the MKb.42(h) to be to clumsy and big. The idea to replace the MGs in the lMG role was a later one. The sMG role was not in question. All MG34/42 would have been removed from squad level and moved to company level as SMG on tripos.
Thank you for your your detailed look at this. You are one of the few firearms historians that are around anymore. One of the good guys. Me and mine watch you often.
They really pulled the classic little kid/parent argument of, "Hey, can we have this?"
"No"
"Hey, how about now?"
"I said no."
"Heeeeeyyy....so....about the thing."
"I said NO and it's final!"
"You know, they have a good point, just do it."
"*sigh* Okay, fine. Do the thing."
"YAY!"
I made a face when he mentioned thoughts of replacing the MG-42 with this. But then I thought about it. I mean, in modern times, the AR has become so universal that it can be anything from a standard assault rifle, to a compact carbine, to a DMR, to a light machine gun. It would actually be interesting seeing more specialized STG models, had it evolved like current assault rifles.
Wasn't that basically what they had originally intended for the Marine Corps with the M27 IAR? Have a heavy barrel so individual troops can provide more sustained fire in the absence and fill the role of the 249 in a pinch?
The German infantry squad was based around the machine gun, so it would be very tricky to change tactics in the middle of war.
Basically, everyone tried to do that with select fire rifles. The M14 was supposed to replace the M1 and BAR, and the M16 was intended to do the same. But each time, they eventually reintroduced a SAW.
they kinda did with the bent barrel attatchment. woulda been cool if they slapped a scope and bi pod tho
@@temper44 exactly, the German doctrine dictates that the squad will stand as long as the MG is operational
Your squad can be wiped out except the MG and it will still be a squad but only our MG can get shot and your whole squad is dispersed
The MG was more important than even the SL
I'm not even a gun fan, and although I grew up in the North of Ireland during the 80s and 90s, and _saw_ a wide variety of firearms on a daily basis for most of my young life, I never developed any great love of guns.
however, the history which Iain imparts into his videos makes the most fascinating videos.😊
I love watching your work, Iain.
all the best, Chief.
since you lived in north ireland in the 80's/90's i got a feeling those werent guns from a gunstore lol
Strange to see you on a firearms channel.
@@joshmitchell1002
One can appreciate the engineering behind a firearm. Or be interested in its history. One can even participate in and enjoy shooting sports. One can appreciate a firearm in its performance. But love a firearm? I reserve the word love for my wife, my kids and family.
guns are so interesting(cuz im a pyro)
"Belt-fed-individual-intermediate-cartridge-assault-blasters"
Sounds pretty dope, not gonna lie.
They just described a belt fed light machine gun
@@killer3000ad Not if it does not contain the word 'blaster' it ain't.
WAAAGH!
This is almost word-for-word what an average democrat thinks an AR15 is lol
Mini MG42's
Hitler: I was a combat veteran of WWI who was awarded the Iron Cross! No one can tell me what is the best infantry rifle!
Himmler: I was a chicken farmer with a club foot. If my field officers think this is a good rifle, I'll take their word for it.
It's a weird situation when Himmler can play the role of the reasonable man.
Himmler was never just a chicken farmer. He was an agronomy student. This is just wartime Allied propaganda. This is the equivalent of calling a construction engineer a worker. Its disparaging to the profession. Yes he dealt with animals and birds on a farm but only as part of his college level studies for a year. Read up on the guy he was solid middle class. And by the way Himmler would have never called himself just a chicken farmer in a disparaging way. He was always proud of going to college in an era when that was still unusual.
@@florinivan6907
Somebody needs a sense of humor.
@@florinivan6907Himmler had a club foot? I thought that was Göbbels?
Funny that it ended up being the first edition of what almost every soldier carries today lol
Ian, that was a small arms acquisition analysis at the Master level. Thanks!
Great video on a fascinating firearm, with a lot of historical details I wasn’t wholly aware of. Thanks Ian!
Kennedy and McNamara thought the same way as Hitler when the AR-15/M-16 was first proposed to stream line weapons procurement, staying with the over costly and time consuming M-14.. It was the troops in the field requesting more M-16's that changed their minds..
"We were just following orders."
"Didn't you all ignore direct orders from your commander in chief three separate times on a single project?"
I encountered a gentleman who owned a Hanel some years back at the Big Reno Gun Show. When chatting with him I mistakenly ID the gun as an STG-44 but he was quick to correct me that it was actually a Haenal - Schmeiiser MKb.42(H). He had an interesting story about the gun (recovered by a US GI during the Battle of the Bulge), and he allowed me to handle and take photos of it. I knew that Larry Vickers was in the market for one and as it turned out the gun was indeed for sale to the right buyer. I passed the owner's contact info on to Larry, but I don't believe a deal was ever made as the asking price was not within Larry's budget. One thing about the Haenal that I distinctly remember was the heft. I was far heavier than I expected even though it was a stamped sheet metal gun. My little wife also hefted the Haenel and she commented that it was far heavier than it appeared. This chance encounter still stands out as a truly unique highlight for me as a WWII arms fan. - Steve Gibbons - US Night Vision Corporation
Nazis and their superweapons/experimental weapons could be a multi-part series all on their own.
have you heard of the History Channel?
@@danieldykstra3079 thats all fake propaganda stuff to make Hitler look bad
@@danieldykstra3079 they're bloody awful. Coming out with deliberate nonsense like "ZOMG the Ho229 was a stealth jet in 1945!!1one" which is patent bollocks to anyone with the most basic understanding of the timelines of the technology. Actively ahistorical. Never mind all their ancient aliens shit.
@@danieldykstra3079 I think he means the real ones, not UFOs and moon lasers.
@@ComicGladiatorbut UFOs and moon lasers are way radical
Keep up the good work Ian! Your content is some of my favorite
Sadly as much as I would love to enter, I don't think it'd get safely through customs around here.
But thank you for the video non the less Ian^^
Same with me, hopefully they can make some sort of deal for these problems!
I’d like that gun, but I’m not buying a $49 coffee mug for a chance to win it.
Yep.
In my time in the Dutch army, my personal weapons were a FN FAL 7.62 and an UZI 9 mm.
Later in my life, I had the luck of shooting a Sturmgewehr in the wood behind the farm of a Czech friend of mine, his grandfather captured the gun at the end of the war. I must say that it is in full auto very controllable. At least compared to the FAL.
"A lot more of these new rifles!"
"What rifles?!"
"Well, at that time, the cat was pretty much out of the bag."
Pro gamer move: Standard issue FG-42's
They only made 8000 lol 😆
Another important event was that these things were air dropped into the Korsun Pocket and the soldiers quickly figured out how to use them to keep the momentum of an assault which is impossible with a bolt action rifle. The realized they could fire AND move all the way to the target instead of having to wait for the MG42 to reposition. You can argue the StG-44 was key in the night breakout which took the Soviets by surprise initially.
"Wolfenstein level stuff" is a turn of phrase I wasn't expecting. Hmm, who dubbed it Sturmgewehr, I ponder...
Did Luger cancel Hitler?
I believe that was Walther
@@riseld4Jesse
Was a Walther as matter of fact
Walther the butler did it
Walter cancelled Hitler.
Here's an interesting thought. I wonder if production simplification was a factor for the adoption of the MP44 to replace the MP40 in any way, aka producing more standard 8mm bullets and less 9mm bullets? Was there standardization of bullet weights/sizes between the standard 8mm Mauser and 8mm Kurtz where even though the shell case of 8mm Kurtz itself was a new round? Was there at least an ability for the new cartridge to at least use the same 8mm bullets they already had and were producing?
That's a very attractive gun. Thank you for bringing it and the history for us to see and learn.
would be a perfect looking gun if not for that unaesthetic buttstock IMO
Great video, thanks for it.
Whatever the case, any well studied history, that's explained in audio or video, is just awesomeness itself.
“It’s a bit more complicated” sums up most things in life.
Of course, after WWII, the US had Rene Studler, who was militantly opposed to intermediate caliber cartridges. He seemed to have most of the same reactions as Hitler.
The argument is a bit different when you are starting with semiauto rifles instead of bolt actions...
From a firearms development perspective it would have been interesting if it would have been adopted earlier. I could see the germans developing an open bolt model with a long heavy barrel and a bipod a la RPK
A good presentation as usual, Ian. The US didn't adopt an assault rifle until the Vietnam War when they realized that US soldiers and marines were seriously outgunned when facing the VC and NVA troops in Vietnam jungles. US troops on the Western Front in World War II never came up against massed numbers of German troops all armed with StG44's like the Russian troops on the eastern front.
A few years ago at the CLA game fair in the UK one of the major gun manufacturers was showing completed apprentice projects. One was a fully working reduced size STG44 in 22lr. OMG it was a beautiful.
So can we expect a belt-fed StG44 upgrade in the next Sniper Elite game?
Or a Gold order weapon for Enlisted. If it was actually made anyways.
Was hoping for a 8mm mauser belt-fed
PSA are in a pre-production of making the “clone accurate” STG 44. There making them in 55.6, 7.62, 300 black out, and it’s original round 8mm. Will be cool if you can do a side by side comparison between a WW2 and PSA STG 44 in the future.
It reminds me a bit of the story of the Me 262 and Hitler's intervention of it being a used as the Blitzbomber and the Luftwaffe's (largely successful) attempts to work around that
Should of been a Fighter 😂 but he made it a bomber , ? See what meth does to people.
I certainly enjoyed this video mate. I don't have much practical experience with any firearms but what I do have is a certain thirst for this sort of historical knowledge. I do hope you pop more of these armchair videos in the future, cheers.
You don't do many contests. When you do have one, it is no holds barred. WOW!
If they could get Ian on Drunk History to tell a story like this while sipping on glasses of Scotch then I could die a happy man
please let this happen
Almost. When he heard that soldiers loved the emidate firepower the weapons had, he ordered rushed production. Though they were never fully tested and had stoppage problems out in the field. They where the precursor to the assault rifle.
18:18 never thought I would hear Ian make a Warhammer reference
Immediately following a Wolfenstein one
Needs more dAkka. I've also heard the chieftain use that reference too.
@@kingchirpa chieftain admitted that he played imperial guard a while back, so it kind of makes sense
Unfortunately we are going to have to relearn the benefits of intermediate cartridges after the introduction of the fury.
Is that why they were shooting 8mm mauser, 30-06, and 303 British at one another?
Great video Ian, even if I was already familiar with the material! Any books you'd recommend on the subject? I'm specifically interested in the early troop trials of the Mkb 42 and MP 43.
Definitely the best one is "Sturmgewehr!" by Hans-Dieter Handrich, published by Collector Grade. Get the second (expanded) edition.
@@ForgottenWeapons Thanks so much!
@@ForgottenWeapons Ian, I am not a gun nerd but I AM interested in the history of their development. Can you recommend a book that explains that, and defines gun categories?
@@roygardiner2229 The introductory chapters of an older copy of "Small Arms of the World" may be a good start. If you are in the US you should be able to pick one up fairly cheaply.
@@kiwigrunt330 Thanks very much! I appreciate that!
Sturmgewehr walking into Hitler's office with a hat and a mustache on: "Hi, mein fuhrer"
To correct your ending, Ian. Most of NATO wanted to adopt an intermediate cartridge from the start & the US forced 7.62x51mm on us, only to abandon it 10 years later when the US figured out intermediate cartridge “assault rifles” were the way to go after all.
Uhh. For its day 7.62x51 WAS an intermediate cartridge. Hell half the point was using advancements in powder to make a smaller cartridge with the same ballistics of 30-06. All the documentation of its development states as much. And the cartridge NATO liked wasn't much better. Like .280 Enfield is about the same size (in length) to .308. There's not much difference there. All you have to do is even look at the Magazine for the original trials EM1/2 and FAL. Those are the size of M14 mags. No matter WHICH round we chose, it was eventually going to be replaced by a true intermediate cartridge later on.
@@claytonmachine12 LOL! You claim 7.62x51 is an intermediate cartridge, then in the very next sentence explain that it’s a full power cartridge. 😂
The physical dimensions of the cartridge tell you nothing about chamber pressure, muzzle energy, velocities etc. Don’t comment if you don’t know what you’re talking about kid. Although starting your nonsense with “Uhh” did make me literally LOL, thanks for the laugh.
@@nicholsliwilson No I explain the purpose of the round. Go read the documentation from the day. The US Ordinance Department LITTERALY calls it an intermediate cartridge. And an intermediate cartridge by definition does not need to be weaker. Than an OLDER. OUTDATED. cartridge, using OUTDATED powder. Again. which was part of the point of the program. An intermediate cartridge is a smaller lighter cartridge. Which .308 IS to 30-06.
And now we’re going back to a large cartridge (6.8x51mm)
@@nicholsliwilson And yes. The size tells me nothing about things like chamber pressure etc. So if we go by your thoughts. the .280 Brit must be WEAKER than .308. Since you scoff at an intermediate cartridge being ballistic similar to a full size rifle cartridge. So then .280 brit is WEAK than .308, while being the same size and weight. Your not making the case for .280 with that argument.
I've always wanted to know more about this! I'm far too lazy to look it up though. So, once again, thank you Ian for reading books so I don't have to.
nice video. Love this video where you go back in history and try to see what people had to deal with and live through.
Another excellent video! Thanks again, Ian!
Amazing this video is not restricted by my company user filter hahah great work with the community guidelines Ian
I love, love, love your history videos! Please give us more of these. ❤❤❤
BTW Gewehr could mean almost anything although these days it is mostly used to describe long handheld guns but to the present day a German soldier's Seitengewehr (lit.: side arm) is his bayonet.
Generally Gewehre fall into one of two types: Büchsen (rifled) or Flinten (smooth bore).
That was riveting! Thank you very much, sir.
With regards to the lack of grenade launching ability, I'm sure that would have been developed had the rifle had more time before the war ended. The alternate-WWII anime series World Witches features StG 44s fitted with underbarrel launchers derived from the Leuchtpistole/Sturmpistole, not especially redesigned besides removing the pistol grip; the Brave Witches IMFDB page has some examples (I say semi-selfishly, as I built all those pages lol). I've seen photoshops of similar setups too, and it's kind of a shame it didn't actually happen, as it's a remarkably similar setup to what we now think of as the standard way to give rifles grenade launching capability (underbarrel launcher).
Given that the Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek were coming into use and that probably reduced the need for grenade launcher. A StG 44 modified to fire a grenade would probably only have about 40% of the range. I'm thinking the 12 man squad would end up still with the MG42 maybe 1 or two G.43 with the rest of the squad StG44.
And earlier versions had a threaded muzzle.
Well hitler was an idiot so that’s good
"the magazines don't give us enough Dakka"
I see you Ian. I see you. You let out your inner Ork there for a second
When is PSA gonna release their STG44?
The idea of Himler sending a letter to Hitler saying "We need more dakka." is very amusing to me.
Hitler came around when Speer gave a thumbs up.
Speer was Hitler's favourite in the late war; until he tried to convince Hitler that "Maybe this scorched earth, burn Germany to the ground stuff is a bit extreme.."
@@dalemoss4684 Hitler trusted Speer above all others. Appointing Speer as armaments Minister was Hitler’s best decision ever. Speer performed miracles of production that lengthened the war by at least a year.
One of the coolest weapons ever created.
Hitler felt that the KAR 98 would serve well enough, since it was almost the same rifle he used in WWI. They already had thousands of them and literally tons of ammo for them.
Caught it just as it uploaded for once
Ian, I respect you for trying to spell the names correctly in German and in Polish too.
I have the MKB -42(H) all steel model by Shoei ,and an MP -44 dummy from IMA.Its all original parts on a solid aluminum receiver. They don't fire but I love them both ,and within my budget.Great program ,Ian.
MKb-42(H). Is on the title photo.
Every time Ian pauses to point at the gun, I think, "Elbonia ... I'm talking to You."
Imagine going to war and being the beta tester for some of your most critical equipment.
@@ryantogo8359 Having an Stg44 in WW2 is like when you´re in a nerf war and your dad gives you a pellet gun
i'm glad there is now a good central source for this, when i was first researching this 15 year ago i kept finding all sorts of nonsense or contradictory information (in part due to how infested forums where back then with "those" guys" and it was very time/effort consuming sifting trough the bad info to get the more credible parts
Wait so the SS got Sturmgewehre and came back asking for a belt fed version. So basically M249 SAW? They really were ahead of their time in small arms development.
The SS officer that requested an MKB42(H) in 8x35mm and belt fed must’ve been on a Pervitin high. Imagine if that was actually made.
The influences on H&K G3 are unmistakable.
There is a direct traceable line from the StG-44 to the G3, passing from Germany to France to Spain and back to Germany.
@@ForgottenWeapons You left out Dutchland (Henk Visser).
The HK G3 also traces its origins back to the Mauser StG 45 which used delayed roller blow back mechanism like the G3. The StG 45 was much lighter than the StG 44 and likely a better weapon.
@@ForgottenWeapons Nice Jacket.
Full value of the Stg could only be realised after changes in infantry tactics. They are substantially different with select fire availability, even compared to semi-auto rifle equipped units.
Obviously replacing the MG42 with Stg isn't sensible given the general purpose functionality and belt-fed, quick change barrel allowing for continuous metal rain on the enemy even beyond the effective range of the Stg.
The Stg works better with the MG42 by providing substantial supporting fire while an MG is being moved to capitalise on gains during an engagement.
My wife got me one when they first came to the United States. It came in a wooden box like the ones the Nazis would have shipped it in. My wife got it for me for Father's.
Based
Definetely a keeper
Thanks for a great video!
Could you please give your opinion on the "possible MKBs at Stalingrad" debacle?
They are literally in every WW2 video game now, and fanboys are defending it saying there was the Kholm pocket drop of MKBs or something.
But there aren't really any logical sources of why would they appear in Stalingrad.
That robe is as iconic as this channel😂
I love the irony in changing the name from a rifle/carbine designation to an smg designation while also switching from open bolt to closed bolt considering general conventions
Also, to be entirely fair to Adolf, the ammunition supply is a legitimate concern, it's not like he was talking completely out of where the sun doesn't shine in that regard.
Guess it's a good thing over all that they wasted two years before making it into service for the rest of the world though.
Probably but I'm of the mind that adopting the Mkb and 8mm Kurz before Operation Barabrossa wouldn't have made a whole world of difference. The German war machine had much bigger problems than being stuck with bolt action rifles.
not unusual when the Moustache Man was in charge, the Me262A Fighterjets combat debut was delayed because of his decision to convert and use Fighterjet in Bomber/Fighterbomber Role.
@@Sturminfantrist Unlike there, here he kind of had a point, at least as far as potential supply problems were concerned. And the German logistics must have been a nightmare with how many different things they were using already by that point.
Not completely, but you might also consider that substantial ammounts of infantry ammo got burned with the infantry doctrine centered around the mg34 and mg42 doctrines. German squads had around 7 dudes with just the basic K98k and 2 people managing one mg (1 loader). And that mg was meant to provide the firepower for the whole squad so that they could advance. In a book i read from a german sharpshooter - Sepp Allerberger - lot of soldiers or at least the smart ones didn't want to carry that mg because of the huge responsibility of having to give cover fire for everybody else and making up for the lack of firepower of their comrades but also they were the biggest threat to the enemies and hence most of the enemy fire would concentrate on the MG lowering your chances of survival quite a lot. And once the mg is down the rest of the German squad was much less of a threat. So due to it's role and also given it's insane firerate those mgs rocked through a lot of ammo which is also why in so many pictures you see german soldiers carrying ammo boxes. I would assume that with the StG44 implemented not only would the squad's firepower and effectiveness have increased but overall ammo consumption possibly would've been the same or similar. It's just not one person burning all of it but the whole squad individually from different angles.
@@kabakaprime5127 Which still comes back to the *one* legitimate point Adolf made against this rifle.
The fact that it used a completely new round that *nothing* else in the German inventory used. Too many different rounds in use can be a logistical pain in the posterior, just ask the Italians.
It’s been suggested that AH had a negative impact on the development of a German 'assault rifle' as far back as 1941, but the effect, if any, was probably minimal because no prototype weapons of this class even existed then. Evaluations continued (as this video indicates) as machine pistol programs, but they weren't even produced for field trials until late 1942 / early 1943. AH did indeed order suspension of these programs but he changed his mind when they produced positive results. In April 1944, he ordered it re-designated MP 44. Three months later (when Hitler consulted his commanders about the Eastern Front) the word "rifle" was used and he was told men at the front needed more of them. Initially angry that his order concerning 'rifles' hadn't been adhered to, he then took the opportunity to test fire an MP 44. Highly impressed, he dubbed it the Sturmgewehr, meaning storm rifle; the weapons were shipped to the Eastern Front in late 1944.
this is that gun in the first ww2 themes fps game you played that you picked up and never dropped til the end of the game
Please tell us the exact differences between pistol, intermediate and full power cartridges. What are the defining specifics regarding size, velocity and bullet weight, For example: at what point does an intermediate cartridge become a full power cartridge?
I read somewhere that early versions of the weapon were air-dropped into the Demyansk and/or Kholm pockets in the winter of ‘41-‘42, and that the survivors of those pockets credited their survival to the effectiveness of those weapons. If that’s true the guns were probably the Walther versions, which would be pretty interesting.
It is possible that some of the very first test batch of MKb-42(H) rifles were air-dropped into Cholm, but there is no hard evidence proving it. The Soviets claimed to have captured one there (s/n 505), but they say it was taken a few months before it could have been there.
@@ForgottenWeapons Yes, just as the Russians today repeatedly claim destroying more NATO weapon systems before any entered Ukraine. They must have fortune tellers in the Krem.
I love that their big idea to get Hitler to approve the gun was to basically put a moustache and hat on it.
It's too bad I can't enter, being Canadian.
A leader has to make countless decisions on a daily basis and it is perfectly normal for some to be better on hindsight. What is more important is that he created the environment and spirit to make these achievements possible.
That and death camps.
Having a mad leader really pulls out your creative skills
that environment was there long before him, Germany started research on intermediate cartridges in 1928.
A lesson in concentrating too much power in one person.
On the plus side, it does save a LOT of paperwork
The key to getting your ideas adopted in any bureaucracy is to convince the boss it is his or her idea.
STG44 It was the beginning of "Assault rifle" Look at the appearance of it. It has been produced since 1944. Its design is beautiful that transcends time.
Federov avtomat would like a word with you.
@@highjumpstudios2384 Imp Russian gun Full size rifle no intermediate like MP 43/44 Stgw.
Japanese 6,5mm not 7,62 X54R
@@highjumpstudios2384cei rigotti says hi
@@highjumpstudios2384 Not an intermediate cartridge rifle.
@@highjumpstudios2384 that's more of a "battle rifle" similar to the BAR
Always fun hearing Ian teach gun , history need stuff !
Always remember that none of this going a different way could have changed the outcome of WW2. It may have increased the cost in men and materials to the allies, it may have made Berlin glow in the dark for a few decades but that’s all. Germany lost because the allies had more men and vastly more industrial capacity. Those are what win big wars.
Himmler actually did say “We want some Wolfenstein level stuff!”
True story.
I've always thought of the Sturmgewehr as the father of the AK-47. It's a such a cool looking rifle.
Brandon Herrera has a video about this topic. While there are cosmetic similarities, and possibly copied ergonomics to some degree, the AK operating mechanism is basically a M1 Garand
It's a case of form follows function . Most modern battle rifles and assault rifles have a similar look. Gas piston on top because it's the best position for it.
It is in a way. The idea at least, mechanically they don't have much in common.
@@CRL_One Yep... I should have clarified, I meant, cosmetically... I think Mr. Kalashnikov got some inspiration from the cosmetic style.... There was a pretty good movie about him, and the design/development of the AK-47. It came out a couple years ago. It's not the best movie, but if one is an AK-47 fan (which I am), it's interesting.... I have a Mak90 and SAM7SF in display cases on the wall behind me, and keep looking at them, and the thumbnail in Ian's video.
Kalashnikov denied it vehemently to his dying day. That of course was the proper thing for a good communist to do.
Whether or not I get the rifle, I'm happy to support these businesses and I'M excited to get the new gun mat!