MKb-42(W) - The Sturmgewehr That Never Was
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When the German military first requested rifles in the new 8x33mm Kurz cartridge, there were two companies that provided designs. One was Haenel, who would eventually win the competition. The other was Walther, who submitted this rifle - the MKb-42(W). Where the Haenel gun fired from an open bolt and used a tilting bolt locking system, the Walther rifle fired from a closed bolt and used a rotating bolt to lock. It also used an unusual annular gas piston. In competition, the Walther's closed bolt operation made it more accurate in semiauto fire and less susceptible to ingress of dirt. However, it was substantially more complex and more expensive that the Haenel gun.
In total, just 200 of the MKb-42(W) were made before being cancelled in late 1942. Needless to say, very few survive today, and it was a great privilege to be able to disassemble and present this one to you. Thanks to the Association of Maltese Arms Collectors and Shooters for the invitation to do so!
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The full lockup safety features are really the things I find most interesting about these Forgotten Weapons presentations. The diversity in how makers accomplish the same thing is fascinating.
Usually the diversity aspect of having so many ways to do the same exact thing boils down to not stepping on the patents of others. Prime examples are electronics, the circuits are always different, but it all does the same in the end.
I agree, definitely the most clever examples of engineering in this firearm. The way that the bolt-carrier-firing pin-open safety assembly all interacts to lock the chamber and release the firing pin in an extraordinarily tight, specific window of time and at absolutely no other time, then the carrier is driven back via the gas system, but the bolt is on delayed timing due to the geometry of the cam track causing it to dwell for a specific amount of time before being yanked open as the end of cam track spins it open - and all of the various event timings & most of the safety windows are contained within that that individual parts assembly(every other function of course being between that assembly and the upper). Definitely one of the more fascinating prototypes!
And, how about that stamped steel op rod, utter simplicity where others have been needlessly complex or over built.
Weapons design reminds me of languages. They accomplish the same thing (or are meant to) and human creativity makes for variations to arrive at similar ends.
Walther's entry into the 'how short can you make the sight radius on a rifle' competition.
Ἀντίγονος betcha it's real fast on target tho
These weren't really thought of as rifles, though. When these were being designed there was nothing similar out except for sub guns. These were really SMGs first and rifles second. You can see the similar short sight radius on the AK as well because they were designed to fill the same role. America went the opposite route in designing a rifle that had automatic fire capability added on. The fact us and the Russians both ended up in about the same spot is more or less coincidence. You can still see the holdovers in training methods for both countries from this distinction as well.
1337penguinman I disagree that these were sub machine guns first and rifles second, the idea behind 8x33 was to tame the full power rifle rounds in order to make them more controllable in full auto and better in close quarters (SMG territory), so I would argue it’s the reverse.
Joe Donnelly
Them being more controllable under automatic fire doesn’t contradict his argument that stg’s were more machine guns than rifles.
Commander Superglue you seem to have misunderstood the point I have made, that they are rifles scaled down to suit a sub machine gun role occasionally, not in fact sub machine guns built up to fill a rifles role. Your comment is irrelevant in that case
Now THIS is a real Cheese Grater Handguard!
imagine trying to do a c-clamp on one of these...eugh.
Potatoheadahoy imagine a soldier during the 40's using a c clamp. Now that's hilarious
Just like Porsche hiring a toaster design firm for the 914 you find who can make what you want and voile. Prego!
C clamp grip, goober lmao
also doubles as a hand warmer for winter time, everyone wanted a fire-fight then.
18:11 So, instead of making a couple of tracks to prevent the bolt head from rotating before hitting the "barrel face", they made a really small and easy to loose piece that prevents the bolt carrier from going far enough in respect to the bolt, preventing the rotation of the latter. Geez if they are german.
But I'm swiss, so maybe I shouldn't talk.
Tommaso Morandini Aren't you Swiss known for complicated guns?
COUGH COUGH I don't know what you're talking about! COUGH COUGH
STG 57 is clearly the superior and simpler design! COUGH COUGH
Samuel Pasche Take for example the SIG KE-7! So simple! So easy to disassemble! Or the trigger group of the SG 550! It's not a nightmare at all!
No ok seriously, I don't know what some of my compatriots were thinking back in the days. The only explanation for some ideas is really only "because we are swiss, and we feel a deep and uncontrollable need to make everything as complicated as possible without any reason or practicality".
You are correct, I was going to type the same thing but you saved me from it.
Trying to imagine what the rest of the maltese collections look like!
“Spoiler Alert”
StG-45(M) coming July 20th but early access for 20$ Patreon supporters
Emil Hajbert thanks! I’ll look forward to it 👍
NeoNEET this one was imported from the US, but I’ll bet a lot of stuff was floating around Europe after the war and stayed with the same group of collectors since !
Looted from the area of conflict and then taken home.
Looted is such a dirty word.... They were 'liberated' from the area of conflict and then taken home :)
8:10
That’s actually a cheese grater system. The Germans were planning to send these guns to the Italians on the eastern front.
Maverick Lara who provides the cheese?
The Vichy French, of course.
*Laughs in German*
Damn it, you beat me to the punchline by 2 years.
@@jeph115 damn you got recommended this as well?
We have a MKb-42(W) in Malta.... this island never cease to amaze me.
@@MegaZeta What is your obsession with the nazis?
Actually one of the previous comments really hit a point. Ian,whatever you did for lighting this vid really nailed it. Just right. Colour tone,lighting magnitude,everything just right. Whatever you did,keep it up. Hope you have some sort of memory or record of the details. Iconic rare design,professional quality lighting,enough of all the bits and pieces to get a mental picture of just how the whatzits work together,and while it would have been neat to dive in to that trigger pack,the smart thing to do was leave well enough alone. If it ain't broke,don't send little bits all over the floor.
Whoever came up with that trigger pack must have been trained by a watchmaker who was unusually anal as well as Swiss. Overall,a design tour de force,but sheesh,there was a war on. What were they smoking ? Opium cigarettes ?
Terrific vid and proof how much international respect you now have. Cheers.
Its cool how the trigger mechanism looks like a gun by itself
Wow. I've been hoping to see this on here for a long time.
cloverleafsippa713 he is a Patreon supporter, and early access to videos is one of the benefits.
Jack Andersen was
Random dude: "German weapons being overengineered is a MYTH"
Ian: "Here, let me disassemble the MKb-42(W) for you..."
Random dude: "... Oh..."
Obviously this didn't become a standard weapon. weapons like the MP40 or the Gewehr 43 were just as complicated as any american weapons.
Laughs in AN-94
@@TommyTombstone G11?
@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 G11 disassembly is pretty straightforward, until you get to the Rolex in the back
Random guy: "German weapons are OvErEnginieereD!!1!"
Common Sense: "Arguments?"
Random guy: ".....Errrr..."
This rifle sure has a space age design. I can't imagine the shock that the allied soldiers must have felt when they first saw this rifle. Like it was straight out of a science fiction movie.
Chances are GI Joe would have seen it being thrown on the ground by surrendering truppen, there was a perpetual shortage of 7.92 Kurtz ammo for these guns so most firefights by 1945 would probably be pretty short, one way or another.
@@robertmaybeth3434 You seriously underestimate the resourcefulness of the Wehrmacht and SS. Ammunition wasn't as scarce as in RE 1998 man. Also they knew pretty early where the frontlines would move after Stalingrad, like sure dude they 100% were completely out of ammo and so on and so on. (The satire should be obvious.)
Most had more, few had less. I think you're more on point with the soviets, who actually had lots of Divisions made up of ill-equipped and even worse supplied troops. Sure, Volkssturm would apply there too, but the Wehrmacht and SS are valuable infantry who had to have basic equipment and reserves to be effective even after the end of the war.
@@gametribez3304 Do I have to fire up the Lancasters?
Allies wouldn't have seen this model as it didn't pass trials. They might have thought that of it's successor, the MP43/1, StG 44.
@@doitytoothtony5656 "Most had more, few had less" I didn't mean to drive it into the obscure 100%. You are right, they were to the latter stage of the war short on kurz munition.
My personal source on that they weren't out of ammo left and right is my own grandfather who served as Sturmbannführer. According to him, there were enough units with their own stashed up supply of ammunition they either ransacked from fallen comrades or grabbed from abandoned depots once they started falling back.
But like I said, that was for the majority of squads and men he knew. I appreciate your inquiry.
_Ladies and gentlemen!_
And after the US Civil War Carbine with a coffee grinder in its buttstock,
the Galil hanguard-bottle opener and wire-cutter-bipod
and the AK Bayonet/Sheath multi-purpose tool
*_Walther's MKb-42 with its cheese grater handguard._*
You forget the bayo-trowel rifle!
I'm turning my M1 carbine into a lovely nook lamp.
don't leave out the potato dicker plow gun.
Joe- did u put it on safe, bob?
Bob-I think so I dont speak german
*proceeds to spew full auto fire*
that bolt system is an engineering masterpiece though
The hand guard looks like a cheese grater I would image it would have the same affect on the users hand as well.
CrazyDog I assume that's the reason those holes are only on the topside of the handguard. But I too had that thought.
Impromptu torture device/cooking tool lol
like grating his hand with a hot appliance, once you put two magazines of full auto through it
even tho it didn't pass trials it looks like a well made gun
This looks like someone took a Sturmgewehr and threw a hefty dose of "I mean it works, but WHY" into it.
Mobius-99/305 😂
that's the German design philosophy alright, if you can't over-design it you're doing it FALSCH! My mom's mercedes has a thousand things designed into it to make it harder to service, a bottom cover plate that takes a half hour to get off just the drain the oil, and a radio that fails and needs a trip to the dealer if you so much as disconnect the battery... but the window motors are too weak to close the windows all the way up and the A/C suicides at 100K miles.
Great 👍🏼 lighting Ian. And an exquisite piece...!!!
Hi, Ian. Another interesting mechanism that is not suitable for use in battle. Some aspects of the rotating bolt are pretty cool. The big gas piston was over the top though. I am sure it would be fun to shoot. But maintenance in the field? Fugetaboudit! Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
I found this weapon very easy to follow assembly and disassembly. M16 was not as complicated but getting those front guards off the first time you stripped it down was a trick to learn. Many weapons that work the best where complicated to field strip.
Interesting, at 3:02 there is a copy of the Norwegian book "Skytevåpen benytted av Forsvaret etter 1859" (firearms used by the defense after 1859) in the bookshelf.
I'm a bit surprised not to see a grip safety on that backstrap.
Seriously, it looks like Walther engineering went a bit like this:
"Johann, we need a pistol grip for the new autorifle."
"Well, Hans, I rather like the grip on that Polish pistol, why don't we use that, ja?"
"Splendid, Johann, such efficiency. No one questions that you are indeed German."
That thing is so crazily over engineered. Just a beautiful firearm.
Malta in July? You have such a hard job. A few hours of work and then the beach or all the historical places. Living the dream.
the processing on this particular rifle is over the top and just too good.
If they could have simplified this design it seems better than the StG at least with the bolt hold open and the rotating bolt.
Oh man, this is great to actually see one!
Metal stamping adapted for use in firearms, more than 10 years before anyone else. How German...
Doesn't necessarily mean that it was suited for the time - or useful at all. Or used appropriately. Look at those V1, V2s... but, yes. Very German indeed.
Greetings from said country.
Germany was known for making 'gothic' armour in the late medieval era, which would keep armours light, but make them stronger.
Crosshair
the innovation here isn’t the metal stamping. it’s a mass scale use of it in firearms design.
I meant that germans knew the ''technology'' behind it, and knew that stamping would make any type of thin metal stronger.
TheGoldenCaulk these guns weren't exactly expected to last the 10-20, let alone the 50 years guns in most arsenals have to endure. Stamped guns are really just a piece of wartime production, plus germans used really thin steel which made the guns subceptable to all sorts of stress problems
This grainy black metal makes me moist
This looks like the guns I used to draw when I was a kid
That little "sprung loaded thing" is operating as the guide rail on an AR does it stops the bolt carrier coming forward enough to rotate the bolt to the locked position, til the bolt is within the barrel extension.
All German rifles have a hidden 3-round burst mode. To use it, you must unload all ammunition before shooting, causing a drei feuer.
I did smile, I wanted you to know.
Interesting how similar yet how varied the mechanisms used to fire a bullet.
Nice video Gun Jesus! It still amazes me what you can find. Still waiting for the G11... I believe in you!!! Lol
Increase speed by 10% every time Ian says "sheet metal"
I began to see similarities with my memories of handling Lithgow manufactured inch pattern L1A1 SLR 62 and 63 prefix serials making the rifles two or three years older than me in the late 80s early 90s. Then I watched in horror as Ian disassembled this weapon. OMG, let's just say that I would quite happily stick with my SLR bang stick than have to care for and maintain that thing of way too many parts just itching to get lost at a critical life or death moment. Thank God for the SLR, right arm of the Free World.
What a cool little rifle!!! Thanks Ian!
Great job, thank you very much for the very detailed description of this very rare device.
They kind of negated the whole “use stampings to save on rare metals” thing by building a solid steel rifle inside of the stamped one 😂
I'd think it was the metallurgy that really must have given them fits. 1940's technology combined with wartime conditions to make guns by the millions was the objective of course, but there was no avoiding certain processes, like rifling the bore, which had to be done the hard way and no way around it. And to this very day barrel rifling is still made the same way with the long, long swage through the bore going at about 1 mm every 10 minutes-operation - talk about a production bottleneck lol.
It looks so oddly futuristic
Tomoko Kuroki probably because guns like this were inspirations for films like Star Wars.
That is truly fascinating. That is some excellent work.
A sight with semi realistic ranges. Mother of god.
I wouldn't say that the Walther factory was 'liberated', it was conquered
red orchestra 2 memories
Another fantastic video, thanks Ian!
My goodness me, this looks like it would be very difficult to service in a pinch. So many loose and small parts, what were they thinking?
that gas-piston-bolt-carrier-guide-group-thingy is fascinating, I can see how gas blowback could be a major issue... but how about carrier causing 'bolt bonce' because the firing pin out of battery safety?
oh, the main spring is impinging on the entire assembly from behind the firing pin, problem solved I guess.
damn germans....
Ian, a great presentation.
E for ein and d for drive is all you need to remember
The handguard can also be used as a cheese shredder.
A cheese grater on the fore grip is a nice feature.
Red Orchestra 2 FTW!
Just a thought about the mix of markings on the barrel, is it possible that the barrel blank was originally made for a Kar-98 but was cut down, bored and rechambered (or just cut down and rechambered if the bore was the same) for use in this prototype? That could result in the set of makers/proof marks on it (bys makes the blank, Mauser inspector approves it, CXM bores it, Mauser inspector approves it, Walther requests a barrel with that bore so CXM or maybe Mauser gives it to them and Walther cuts it down and rechambers it for the shorter cartridge).
Cool gun. Can definitely see similarities between the bolt on this one and that of the AR15.
5:47 demonitized
they could have easily added an aperature sight on the rear of the reciever making it easier to hit with
The Germans didn’t like aperture sights. It’s one of the reasons why they didn’t like using captured M1 Garands. They did really like the M1 Carbine
If you are still in Malta, you may want to do a show on the truly forgotten, very large guns of Fort Rinella.
That video posts next week.
I got a popup notification that this was posted, closed it and finished reading the paper, went to my subscriptions page and it wasn't listed. It was listed under the notification bell which is how I got here, but very strange it's not listed on my subscriptions page while another video for a subscribed channel I don't get notifications for is there . Don't think that's happened before for me.
Thomas Mobley I think notifications also utilize our search history especially for channels we view often. Probably why you got this vid even if you didn't sub to Forgotten Weapons. Happened to me for different channels too
I am subscribed, and also signed up for notifications. I've always gotten the notifications of new videos and they've always shown up in my subscriptions listings.
Thomas Mobley Huh, must be that old TH-cam problem again
It's really interesting how similar some parts are to the modern day G36... The pins at 8:25 are basically the same, just a bit smaller and the bolt at 16:10 has the exact same system with that guiding piece and the hole for the firing pin. You could almost say they're interchangeable if it wasn't that much bigger than the one the G36.
This rifle seems to be a catastrophe to clean or even for maintenance... It's like a swiss watch i guess. I really wouldn't want to lose those small parts.
Walter, put your Mkb-42(W) away Walter, I'm not shooting with you right now Walter
So can we talk about Fn Scar stock design
Good to see that the designers of this piece were using rivets long before that other guy...
That thing is pretty crazy
Great video as per usual Ian! I wanted to learn more about trigger groups/systems and how they work. Do you recommend any books for such an inquiry?
I looove the cheese grater cooling vents???
Visible tan on Ian's face... Life's good in Europe in the summertime, ain't it? ;-)
Ian had the coolest job in the world!!!!!
What a rare find!
The grips look suspiciously like late variant Steyr made Radom grips. Cheers, Bruce.
That thing is beautiful.
This gun is the most German thing I have ever seen ever.
Fantastic!
Ian polished his German pronunciation to a excellent level.
Man, you sure find the unicorns.
as always, cool gun, nice explanation, cool video!!!
Got to admit and I'm English, German arms designer's certainly were very advanced manufacturing advanced designs from sheet metal, and a lot of our current weapons were, copies of these
The louvered barrel cover makes me think of biplanes.
That trigger block looks like a hand gun.
Looks very Wolfenstein-esque
Hi new to your channel and it's pretty interesting.
Always nice to knew something about weapons and a little bit about history fo said weapons.
Also nice job pronouncing ''Einzelfeuer'' and ''Dauerfeuer'' right, sometimes I have trouble with some words and I am a native german.
See, this is why Ian's a classy feller.
Dude's always getting filmed in front of the awesome milhist library with the classy hardwood shelves with titles like "Donitz", "Hitler" and "Battle", whereas my maximum degree of interior decorating is to clear most of the empty Steel Reserve cans away from my desk when I Skype with my Mom so she doesn't break my ass about being a lazy slob.
Also instead of the nice shelves, I have all 9,110 of Steve Zaloga's glossies propping up my Ikea nightstand. Someday I'll upgrade to hardcovers and I'll be hood rich. XD
Very well explained!
(one has understood a topic if one can teach it)
@19:27 let me guess there's a sci-fi movie with a gun that looks just like the triger assembly with a few bits taken off/put on? :P
the guy who designed this was pretty haenel.
I have about 12 of them mags, and 2 of them are bolt hold open ones, i never noticed they were dif b4,, my grandma was in war2 n brought back alot of Nazi guns that he left me when he passed
Whenever Ian explains one of these German assault rifles I just get a greater appreciation for the AK-47.
You'd be amazed what weapons are held by collectors in Malta.
You should come to Canada and do a show on my brothers collection...You won't be disappointed! 1909 K11 in 308 Win, 1945 Lee Enfield No. 5( seen battle in the Philippines) 1896 Lee Enfield No. 1, etc.
The gas system is like the long stroke version of a Vz.52 gas syste.
"Very German style pins"
Somehow that sounded hilarious :-)
Not complex at all.
imagine being bombed around the clock and figuring our how to make a better rifle with exhausted craftsmen. appreciate the time you took to show these. have you ever had the full night light system? infrared?
This firearm design very much reminds me of a blend of VZ52 and AK47
How many Strumgeveir varients did the Rebel Alliance use?
They passed them around between soldiers because they were much rarer then, unlike the modernized MG-42s with lazor feed mechanism.
Just think if they had continued with the research and testing of this Karbine when it was first designed in the early '30's.
Wow! the other design was much better than this one! Thanks for sharing.
"Einzelfeuer" mean single fire and "Dauerfeuer" means continous fire, if you translate it word by word.
Its like it has fluting
Reminds me of gothic plate armor
The little Stg that couldn´t