These weren't really thought of as rifles, though. When these were being designed there was nothing similar out except for sub guns. These were really SMGs first and rifles second. You can see the similar short sight radius on the AK as well because they were designed to fill the same role. America went the opposite route in designing a rifle that had automatic fire capability added on. The fact us and the Russians both ended up in about the same spot is more or less coincidence. You can still see the holdovers in training methods for both countries from this distinction as well.
1337penguinman I disagree that these were sub machine guns first and rifles second, the idea behind 8x33 was to tame the full power rifle rounds in order to make them more controllable in full auto and better in close quarters (SMG territory), so I would argue it’s the reverse.
Commander Superglue you seem to have misunderstood the point I have made, that they are rifles scaled down to suit a sub machine gun role occasionally, not in fact sub machine guns built up to fill a rifles role. Your comment is irrelevant in that case
18:11 So, instead of making a couple of tracks to prevent the bolt head from rotating before hitting the "barrel face", they made a really small and easy to loose piece that prevents the bolt carrier from going far enough in respect to the bolt, preventing the rotation of the latter. Geez if they are german. But I'm swiss, so maybe I shouldn't talk.
Samuel Pasche Take for example the SIG KE-7! So simple! So easy to disassemble! Or the trigger group of the SG 550! It's not a nightmare at all! No ok seriously, I don't know what some of my compatriots were thinking back in the days. The only explanation for some ideas is really only "because we are swiss, and we feel a deep and uncontrollable need to make everything as complicated as possible without any reason or practicality".
The full lockup safety features are really the things I find most interesting about these Forgotten Weapons presentations. The diversity in how makers accomplish the same thing is fascinating.
Usually the diversity aspect of having so many ways to do the same exact thing boils down to not stepping on the patents of others. Prime examples are electronics, the circuits are always different, but it all does the same in the end.
I agree, definitely the most clever examples of engineering in this firearm. The way that the bolt-carrier-firing pin-open safety assembly all interacts to lock the chamber and release the firing pin in an extraordinarily tight, specific window of time and at absolutely no other time, then the carrier is driven back via the gas system, but the bolt is on delayed timing due to the geometry of the cam track causing it to dwell for a specific amount of time before being yanked open as the end of cam track spins it open - and all of the various event timings & most of the safety windows are contained within that that individual parts assembly(every other function of course being between that assembly and the upper). Definitely one of the more fascinating prototypes! And, how about that stamped steel op rod, utter simplicity where others have been needlessly complex or over built.
Weapons design reminds me of languages. They accomplish the same thing (or are meant to) and human creativity makes for variations to arrive at similar ends.
NeoNEET this one was imported from the US, but I’ll bet a lot of stuff was floating around Europe after the war and stayed with the same group of collectors since !
this is my favorite firearm channel for several reasons really but one is that i enjoy seeing the inside of guns and how they operate almost more than seeing them fired
Love your videos! all the stamped housings in the world wouldn't offset the amount of jigs and machining it would take the make the bolt, bolt cover, and fire control group. wow what a pile of work.
Bad-ass looking gun, but you can see why it didn't get past the trial stage... In the middle of a war, this just isn't practical enough... Any field repair or fixes would be a nightmare. Even if Walther was good at stamping sheets...
But one has to agree that it is indeed a bad-ass looking gun xD The operating mechanism is also pretty interesting, one could get the feeling it doesn't even have a gas system.
Actually one of the previous comments really hit a point. Ian,whatever you did for lighting this vid really nailed it. Just right. Colour tone,lighting magnitude,everything just right. Whatever you did,keep it up. Hope you have some sort of memory or record of the details. Iconic rare design,professional quality lighting,enough of all the bits and pieces to get a mental picture of just how the whatzits work together,and while it would have been neat to dive in to that trigger pack,the smart thing to do was leave well enough alone. If it ain't broke,don't send little bits all over the floor. Whoever came up with that trigger pack must have been trained by a watchmaker who was unusually anal as well as Swiss. Overall,a design tour de force,but sheesh,there was a war on. What were they smoking ? Opium cigarettes ? Terrific vid and proof how much international respect you now have. Cheers.
This rifle sure has a space age design. I can't imagine the shock that the allied soldiers must have felt when they first saw this rifle. Like it was straight out of a science fiction movie.
Chances are GI Joe would have seen it being thrown on the ground by surrendering truppen, there was a perpetual shortage of 7.92 Kurtz ammo for these guns so most firefights by 1945 would probably be pretty short, one way or another.
@@robertmaybeth3434 You seriously underestimate the resourcefulness of the Wehrmacht and SS. Ammunition wasn't as scarce as in RE 1998 man. Also they knew pretty early where the frontlines would move after Stalingrad, like sure dude they 100% were completely out of ammo and so on and so on. (The satire should be obvious.) Most had more, few had less. I think you're more on point with the soviets, who actually had lots of Divisions made up of ill-equipped and even worse supplied troops. Sure, Volkssturm would apply there too, but the Wehrmacht and SS are valuable infantry who had to have basic equipment and reserves to be effective even after the end of the war.
@@doitytoothtony5656 "Most had more, few had less" I didn't mean to drive it into the obscure 100%. You are right, they were to the latter stage of the war short on kurz munition. My personal source on that they weren't out of ammo left and right is my own grandfather who served as Sturmbannführer. According to him, there were enough units with their own stashed up supply of ammunition they either ransacked from fallen comrades or grabbed from abandoned depots once they started falling back. But like I said, that was for the majority of squads and men he knew. I appreciate your inquiry.
even the stamped steel ones produced in the chaos of WW2 Germany have that teutonic, slightly over-engineered lovely functionality designed in, not all that much like the AK which stole its design (no matter what Kalashnikov said, he is obviously a jimmy-big fibber on his inspiration for the AK) which is the John Deere tractor of firearms
I found this weapon very easy to follow assembly and disassembly. M16 was not as complicated but getting those front guards off the first time you stripped it down was a trick to learn. Many weapons that work the best where complicated to field strip.
_Ladies and gentlemen!_ And after the US Civil War Carbine with a coffee grinder in its buttstock, the Galil hanguard-bottle opener and wire-cutter-bipod and the AK Bayonet/Sheath multi-purpose tool *_Walther's MKb-42 with its cheese grater handguard._*
Hi, Ian. Another interesting mechanism that is not suitable for use in battle. Some aspects of the rotating bolt are pretty cool. The big gas piston was over the top though. I am sure it would be fun to shoot. But maintenance in the field? Fugetaboudit! Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
Interesting, at 3:02 there is a copy of the Norwegian book "Skytevåpen benytted av Forsvaret etter 1859" (firearms used by the defense after 1859) in the bookshelf.
that's the German design philosophy alright, if you can't over-design it you're doing it FALSCH! My mom's mercedes has a thousand things designed into it to make it harder to service, a bottom cover plate that takes a half hour to get off just the drain the oil, and a radio that fails and needs a trip to the dealer if you so much as disconnect the battery... but the window motors are too weak to close the windows all the way up and the A/C suicides at 100K miles.
That little "sprung loaded thing" is operating as the guide rail on an AR does it stops the bolt carrier coming forward enough to rotate the bolt to the locked position, til the bolt is within the barrel extension.
Very interesting. It shows very well how the final Sturmgewehr finally came about. Considering the times it was incredible that such advanced firearms were being developed by the Germans, and far ahead of anyone else. While this rifle did not get accepted, it did get the process started that led to the final Sturmgewehr 44.
I Wouldn't say far ahead of everyone else. A lot of the limiting factor in arms procurement for the allies was doctrinal in nature. Although the mp44 and this monstrosity is pretty nifty
I got a popup notification that this was posted, closed it and finished reading the paper, went to my subscriptions page and it wasn't listed. It was listed under the notification bell which is how I got here, but very strange it's not listed on my subscriptions page while another video for a subscribed channel I don't get notifications for is there . Don't think that's happened before for me.
Thomas Mobley I think notifications also utilize our search history especially for channels we view often. Probably why you got this vid even if you didn't sub to Forgotten Weapons. Happened to me for different channels too
I am subscribed, and also signed up for notifications. I've always gotten the notifications of new videos and they've always shown up in my subscriptions listings.
Doesn't necessarily mean that it was suited for the time - or useful at all. Or used appropriately. Look at those V1, V2s... but, yes. Very German indeed. Greetings from said country.
TheGoldenCaulk these guns weren't exactly expected to last the 10-20, let alone the 50 years guns in most arsenals have to endure. Stamped guns are really just a piece of wartime production, plus germans used really thin steel which made the guns subceptable to all sorts of stress problems
I'm a bit surprised not to see a grip safety on that backstrap. Seriously, it looks like Walther engineering went a bit like this: "Johann, we need a pistol grip for the new autorifle." "Well, Hans, I rather like the grip on that Polish pistol, why don't we use that, ja?" "Splendid, Johann, such efficiency. No one questions that you are indeed German."
Gas piston that uses the handguard as the outer cylinder AND it includes a cheese grater. The Germans have always intrigued me with their engineering: but never impressed me. Don't ever stop making videos, Ian. You have access to some of the most interesting collections in history and you truly know your stuff.
Just a thought about the mix of markings on the barrel, is it possible that the barrel blank was originally made for a Kar-98 but was cut down, bored and rechambered (or just cut down and rechambered if the bore was the same) for use in this prototype? That could result in the set of makers/proof marks on it (bys makes the blank, Mauser inspector approves it, CXM bores it, Mauser inspector approves it, Walther requests a barrel with that bore so CXM or maybe Mauser gives it to them and Walther cuts it down and rechambers it for the shorter cartridge).
High quality blanks? What is a high quality blank? I understand a high quality precision cartridge, but I truly don't understand what a "high quality blank" is.
@@cl4998 That's hard to explain to someone who might not know how those specific European blank firing guns work. Those guns are manufactured in a way that they can't fire real ammo, i.e. the barrel is partially blocked and can't be removed. High quality blank cartridges are made from brass, cycle the gun reliably, eject nicely, have a loud bang and a produce nice flash. And the gun powder burns without clogging up the barrel with soot, because cleaning those barrels is of course quite the hassle. Those guns might sound quite pointless to someone from the U.S., but because it is impossible to shoot projectiles with them, they are more or less safe to use around people. This makes them a great choice for starter pistols, reenactment and movies. No dead camera operators with a 9mm P.A.K. gun. Well, unless they get a heart attack.
While the Luger tool will fit into the opening and release the barrel nut, the round shape of the hole and general availability suggest that it was designed to be released by a cartridge tip.
It's really interesting how similar some parts are to the modern day G36... The pins at 8:25 are basically the same, just a bit smaller and the bolt at 16:10 has the exact same system with that guiding piece and the hole for the firing pin. You could almost say they're interchangeable if it wasn't that much bigger than the one the G36. This rifle seems to be a catastrophe to clean or even for maintenance... It's like a swiss watch i guess. I really wouldn't want to lose those small parts.
"Hey guys, I've got a great idea. Let's have the entire upper held together by the muzzle nut and the only thing holding that in place is a tiny little flat spring"
I've been to a bunch of different channels with vids about gun history. In the end, I ALWAYS end up back at Forgotten Weapons. Man, I love this stuff, Ian. I've literally spent hours at a time watching these extremely informational vids. Being able to watch them on my big ass TV because of Google Chromecast makes it that much harder to stop 🤣Thank you again! I wasn't a very big gun guy until around the time I found this channel. Now I just want to go shoot shit! Lol 😆 This '0223' Norinco SKS my Dad just inherited from my uncle has been calling my name. The first year Ruger New Model Single Six is, too. I've never shot a single action revolver...in any caliber. Can't wait.
I began to see similarities with my memories of handling Lithgow manufactured inch pattern L1A1 SLR 62 and 63 prefix serials making the rifles two or three years older than me in the late 80s early 90s. Then I watched in horror as Ian disassembled this weapon. OMG, let's just say that I would quite happily stick with my SLR bang stick than have to care for and maintain that thing of way too many parts just itching to get lost at a critical life or death moment. Thank God for the SLR, right arm of the Free World.
that gas-piston-bolt-carrier-guide-group-thingy is fascinating, I can see how gas blowback could be a major issue... but how about carrier causing 'bolt bonce' because the firing pin out of battery safety?
I suspect that the barrel may have been a mauser rifle barrel originally then recut for a shorter chamber. It even appears to have the same thread pattern.
EXPLANATION PLEASE - that extra little safety in the bolt: I understand how it works but I can't grasp the situation when it was actually needed... The primary safety (firing pin/caming cylinder) prevents firing out of battery already. I don't understand what Ian said there about possibility of firing pin sticking out when the bolt caught something before going into that locking channel/chamber/whatever you call it... I can't grasp how it's possible and even if it happened how there would be a cartridge supported by something in front of the firing pin.
Pistols modelled after existing firearms, mostly made out of zanac-alloy (or real guns that never took off commercially as live fire arms so they just used the parts, Walther PK380 for example), with a barrel that is weakened and drilled offset off the center after the chamber and partially plugged (so no projectiles can ever leave the barrel). Caliber is mostly 9mm PAK (Pistole Automatik Knall or pistol, automatic, blank). Just a crimped casing with a plastic insert to build up pressure, loaded with some really cheap, fast burning smokeless powder. Alternatively you can also use casings loaded with some pepper spray substitute that launches out to a good 5 meters and is pretty effective, surprisingly. Combined with the shock you get from having a blank 9mm go off in your face, of course.
These can be bought for 120-200€ and carried (concealed, open carry gets you in prison or shot by a nervous cop) for self defense with a license (that you can simply buy for 50€), and its actually not too uncommon. The police doesnt like it though, i have one in my glove box and the cop made quite the deal out of it even though its perfectly legal.
TheAngler2210 huh, that's neat. Probably wouldn't fit in Finland though, we can't carry in public things that even look like firearms or things that can be used to harm another person.
I'd think it was the metallurgy that really must have given them fits. 1940's technology combined with wartime conditions to make guns by the millions was the objective of course, but there was no avoiding certain processes, like rifling the bore, which had to be done the hard way and no way around it. And to this very day barrel rifling is still made the same way with the long, long swage through the bore going at about 1 mm every 10 minutes-operation - talk about a production bottleneck lol.
I suspect that the primary function of what you call the out of battery safety is to push the bolt forward without the cams rotating the bolt before it is in the trunion.
Would the bolt hold open fail to disengage if the gun was being held sideways or upside-down? Once you put a fresh magazine in and rack bolt the hold open falls down by simple gravity, right?
Serious question, he said stamped like lower quality metal could be used or was the point of stamped because there was less metal waste? I have always assumed less waste , but can you also use lower quality metal?
8:10
That’s actually a cheese grater system. The Germans were planning to send these guns to the Italians on the eastern front.
Maverick Lara who provides the cheese?
The Vichy French, of course.
*Laughs in German*
Damn it, you beat me to the punchline by 2 years.
@@jeph115 damn you got recommended this as well?
Walther's entry into the 'how short can you make the sight radius on a rifle' competition.
Ἀντίγονος betcha it's real fast on target tho
These weren't really thought of as rifles, though. When these were being designed there was nothing similar out except for sub guns. These were really SMGs first and rifles second. You can see the similar short sight radius on the AK as well because they were designed to fill the same role. America went the opposite route in designing a rifle that had automatic fire capability added on. The fact us and the Russians both ended up in about the same spot is more or less coincidence. You can still see the holdovers in training methods for both countries from this distinction as well.
1337penguinman I disagree that these were sub machine guns first and rifles second, the idea behind 8x33 was to tame the full power rifle rounds in order to make them more controllable in full auto and better in close quarters (SMG territory), so I would argue it’s the reverse.
Joe Donnelly
Them being more controllable under automatic fire doesn’t contradict his argument that stg’s were more machine guns than rifles.
Commander Superglue you seem to have misunderstood the point I have made, that they are rifles scaled down to suit a sub machine gun role occasionally, not in fact sub machine guns built up to fill a rifles role. Your comment is irrelevant in that case
18:11 So, instead of making a couple of tracks to prevent the bolt head from rotating before hitting the "barrel face", they made a really small and easy to loose piece that prevents the bolt carrier from going far enough in respect to the bolt, preventing the rotation of the latter. Geez if they are german.
But I'm swiss, so maybe I shouldn't talk.
Tommaso Morandini Aren't you Swiss known for complicated guns?
COUGH COUGH I don't know what you're talking about! COUGH COUGH
STG 57 is clearly the superior and simpler design! COUGH COUGH
Samuel Pasche Take for example the SIG KE-7! So simple! So easy to disassemble! Or the trigger group of the SG 550! It's not a nightmare at all!
No ok seriously, I don't know what some of my compatriots were thinking back in the days. The only explanation for some ideas is really only "because we are swiss, and we feel a deep and uncontrollable need to make everything as complicated as possible without any reason or practicality".
You are correct, I was going to type the same thing but you saved me from it.
The full lockup safety features are really the things I find most interesting about these Forgotten Weapons presentations. The diversity in how makers accomplish the same thing is fascinating.
Usually the diversity aspect of having so many ways to do the same exact thing boils down to not stepping on the patents of others. Prime examples are electronics, the circuits are always different, but it all does the same in the end.
I agree, definitely the most clever examples of engineering in this firearm. The way that the bolt-carrier-firing pin-open safety assembly all interacts to lock the chamber and release the firing pin in an extraordinarily tight, specific window of time and at absolutely no other time, then the carrier is driven back via the gas system, but the bolt is on delayed timing due to the geometry of the cam track causing it to dwell for a specific amount of time before being yanked open as the end of cam track spins it open - and all of the various event timings & most of the safety windows are contained within that that individual parts assembly(every other function of course being between that assembly and the upper). Definitely one of the more fascinating prototypes!
And, how about that stamped steel op rod, utter simplicity where others have been needlessly complex or over built.
Weapons design reminds me of languages. They accomplish the same thing (or are meant to) and human creativity makes for variations to arrive at similar ends.
As a Brit living in Malta I just wanted to thank you for your work and look forward to seeing more of your visit to Malta.
Trying to imagine what the rest of the maltese collections look like!
“Spoiler Alert”
StG-45(M) coming July 20th but early access for 20$ Patreon supporters
Emil Hajbert thanks! I’ll look forward to it 👍
NeoNEET this one was imported from the US, but I’ll bet a lot of stuff was floating around Europe after the war and stayed with the same group of collectors since !
Looted from the area of conflict and then taken home.
Looted is such a dirty word.... They were 'liberated' from the area of conflict and then taken home :)
Now THIS is a real Cheese Grater Handguard!
imagine trying to do a c-clamp on one of these...eugh.
Potatoheadahoy imagine a soldier during the 40's using a c clamp. Now that's hilarious
Just like Porsche hiring a toaster design firm for the 914 you find who can make what you want and voile. Prego!
C clamp grip, goober lmao
also doubles as a hand warmer for winter time, everyone wanted a fire-fight then.
this is my favorite firearm channel for several reasons really but one is that i enjoy seeing the inside of guns and how they operate almost more than seeing them fired
19:26 Also includes Decker's Bladerunner pistol in the fire control group.
And to think this was designed and engineered without computers or CAD programs. Just paper, pencils, slide rulers, and protractors. Boggles the mind.
jakeorama and a couple of Curta calculators
What boggles my mind is people with no sense of history who think that current technology is the only technology.
The future, an EMP type event occurs. No body understands how to make or repair stuff. Civilization takes a giant step backwards..
Unglaublich das Aussehen gleicht fast der AK47
i know, and I cant find my way home without gps anymore
Love your videos! all the stamped housings in the world wouldn't offset the amount of jigs and machining it would take the make the bolt, bolt cover, and fire control group. wow what a pile of work.
We have a MKb-42(W) in Malta.... this island never cease to amaze me.
@@MegaZeta What is your obsession with the nazis?
Bad-ass looking gun, but you can see why it didn't get past the trial stage... In the middle of a war, this just isn't practical enough... Any field repair or fixes would be a nightmare. Even if Walther was good at stamping sheets...
But one has to agree that it is indeed a bad-ass looking gun xD
The operating mechanism is also pretty interesting, one could get the feeling it doesn't even have a gas system.
I'm kinda inclined to agree with Ian that some of these parts seem to have been thrown in as a last-minute fix for possible issues.
Thats why such guns come with a bajonet..
999
Actually one of the previous comments really hit a point. Ian,whatever you did for lighting this vid really nailed it. Just right. Colour tone,lighting magnitude,everything just right. Whatever you did,keep it up. Hope you have some sort of memory or record of the details. Iconic rare design,professional quality lighting,enough of all the bits and pieces to get a mental picture of just how the whatzits work together,and while it would have been neat to dive in to that trigger pack,the smart thing to do was leave well enough alone. If it ain't broke,don't send little bits all over the floor.
Whoever came up with that trigger pack must have been trained by a watchmaker who was unusually anal as well as Swiss. Overall,a design tour de force,but sheesh,there was a war on. What were they smoking ? Opium cigarettes ?
Terrific vid and proof how much international respect you now have. Cheers.
Wow. I've been hoping to see this on here for a long time.
cloverleafsippa713 he is a Patreon supporter, and early access to videos is one of the benefits.
Jack Andersen was
Random dude: "German weapons being overengineered is a MYTH"
Ian: "Here, let me disassemble the MKb-42(W) for you..."
Random dude: "... Oh..."
Obviously this didn't become a standard weapon. weapons like the MP40 or the Gewehr 43 were just as complicated as any american weapons.
Laughs in AN-94
@@TommyTombstone G11?
@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 G11 disassembly is pretty straightforward, until you get to the Rolex in the back
Random guy: "German weapons are OvErEnginieereD!!1!"
Common Sense: "Arguments?"
Random guy: ".....Errrr..."
"So hey what are you doing to today?"
"Oh nothing just skipped out to MALTA TO PLAY WITH SUPER RARE ULTRA COOL BIG BOY TOYS."
This rifle sure has a space age design. I can't imagine the shock that the allied soldiers must have felt when they first saw this rifle. Like it was straight out of a science fiction movie.
Chances are GI Joe would have seen it being thrown on the ground by surrendering truppen, there was a perpetual shortage of 7.92 Kurtz ammo for these guns so most firefights by 1945 would probably be pretty short, one way or another.
@@robertmaybeth3434 You seriously underestimate the resourcefulness of the Wehrmacht and SS. Ammunition wasn't as scarce as in RE 1998 man. Also they knew pretty early where the frontlines would move after Stalingrad, like sure dude they 100% were completely out of ammo and so on and so on. (The satire should be obvious.)
Most had more, few had less. I think you're more on point with the soviets, who actually had lots of Divisions made up of ill-equipped and even worse supplied troops. Sure, Volkssturm would apply there too, but the Wehrmacht and SS are valuable infantry who had to have basic equipment and reserves to be effective even after the end of the war.
@@gametribez3304 Do I have to fire up the Lancasters?
Allies wouldn't have seen this model as it didn't pass trials. They might have thought that of it's successor, the MP43/1, StG 44.
@@doitytoothtony5656 "Most had more, few had less" I didn't mean to drive it into the obscure 100%. You are right, they were to the latter stage of the war short on kurz munition.
My personal source on that they weren't out of ammo left and right is my own grandfather who served as Sturmbannführer. According to him, there were enough units with their own stashed up supply of ammunition they either ransacked from fallen comrades or grabbed from abandoned depots once they started falling back.
But like I said, that was for the majority of squads and men he knew. I appreciate your inquiry.
you have got to admit that german firearms are beautifully manufactured
Well seeing how war is not a beauty contest, they would have been better off with a larger quantity of ugly weapons :)))
Andras Libal you know who also wanted ugly weapons? Adfol Hieler
Yeah, up until the G36.
It's not that beautiful.
Very true. Beautiful indeed.
even the stamped steel ones produced in the chaos of WW2 Germany have that teutonic, slightly over-engineered lovely functionality designed in, not all that much like the AK which stole its design (no matter what Kalashnikov said, he is obviously a jimmy-big fibber on his inspiration for the AK) which is the John Deere tractor of firearms
Its cool how the trigger mechanism looks like a gun by itself
I found this weapon very easy to follow assembly and disassembly. M16 was not as complicated but getting those front guards off the first time you stripped it down was a trick to learn. Many weapons that work the best where complicated to field strip.
_Ladies and gentlemen!_
And after the US Civil War Carbine with a coffee grinder in its buttstock,
the Galil hanguard-bottle opener and wire-cutter-bipod
and the AK Bayonet/Sheath multi-purpose tool
*_Walther's MKb-42 with its cheese grater handguard._*
You forget the bayo-trowel rifle!
I'm turning my M1 carbine into a lovely nook lamp.
don't leave out the potato dicker plow gun.
that bolt system is an engineering masterpiece though
Hi, Ian. Another interesting mechanism that is not suitable for use in battle. Some aspects of the rotating bolt are pretty cool. The big gas piston was over the top though. I am sure it would be fun to shoot. But maintenance in the field? Fugetaboudit! Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
Excelente video 👌 la esplicacion de los datos técnicos e historia de la misma es muy buena por los detalles . Muchas gracias.
That thing is so crazily over engineered. Just a beautiful firearm.
even tho it didn't pass trials it looks like a well made gun
Great 👍🏼 lighting Ian. And an exquisite piece...!!!
You certainly get to handle some awesome rare historic pieces of firearm history. Great videos, A1 quality
Joe- did u put it on safe, bob?
Bob-I think so I dont speak german
*proceeds to spew full auto fire*
Great video as usual, re waffenamt code on barrel Gustav Genschow (CXM) also used Waa26 as well as Mauser.
Interesting, at 3:02 there is a copy of the Norwegian book "Skytevåpen benytted av Forsvaret etter 1859" (firearms used by the defense after 1859) in the bookshelf.
This looks like someone took a Sturmgewehr and threw a hefty dose of "I mean it works, but WHY" into it.
Mobius-99/305 😂
that's the German design philosophy alright, if you can't over-design it you're doing it FALSCH! My mom's mercedes has a thousand things designed into it to make it harder to service, a bottom cover plate that takes a half hour to get off just the drain the oil, and a radio that fails and needs a trip to the dealer if you so much as disconnect the battery... but the window motors are too weak to close the windows all the way up and the A/C suicides at 100K miles.
Malta in July? You have such a hard job. A few hours of work and then the beach or all the historical places. Living the dream.
That little "sprung loaded thing" is operating as the guide rail on an AR does it stops the bolt carrier coming forward enough to rotate the bolt to the locked position, til the bolt is within the barrel extension.
Complicated, but interesting design! Thanks Ian :)
Very interesting. It shows very well how the final Sturmgewehr finally came about. Considering the times it was incredible that such advanced firearms were being developed by the Germans, and far ahead of anyone else. While this rifle did not get accepted, it did get the process started that led to the final Sturmgewehr 44.
I Wouldn't say far ahead of everyone else. A lot of the limiting factor in arms procurement for the allies was doctrinal in nature. Although the mp44 and this monstrosity is pretty nifty
The hand guard looks like a cheese grater I would image it would have the same affect on the users hand as well.
CrazyDog I assume that's the reason those holes are only on the topside of the handguard. But I too had that thought.
Impromptu torture device/cooking tool lol
like grating his hand with a hot appliance, once you put two magazines of full auto through it
I got a popup notification that this was posted, closed it and finished reading the paper, went to my subscriptions page and it wasn't listed. It was listed under the notification bell which is how I got here, but very strange it's not listed on my subscriptions page while another video for a subscribed channel I don't get notifications for is there . Don't think that's happened before for me.
Thomas Mobley I think notifications also utilize our search history especially for channels we view often. Probably why you got this vid even if you didn't sub to Forgotten Weapons. Happened to me for different channels too
I am subscribed, and also signed up for notifications. I've always gotten the notifications of new videos and they've always shown up in my subscriptions listings.
Thomas Mobley Huh, must be that old TH-cam problem again
Great job, thank you very much for the very detailed description of this very rare device.
Metal stamping adapted for use in firearms, more than 10 years before anyone else. How German...
Doesn't necessarily mean that it was suited for the time - or useful at all. Or used appropriately. Look at those V1, V2s... but, yes. Very German indeed.
Greetings from said country.
Germany was known for making 'gothic' armour in the late medieval era, which would keep armours light, but make them stronger.
Crosshair
the innovation here isn’t the metal stamping. it’s a mass scale use of it in firearms design.
I meant that germans knew the ''technology'' behind it, and knew that stamping would make any type of thin metal stronger.
TheGoldenCaulk these guns weren't exactly expected to last the 10-20, let alone the 50 years guns in most arsenals have to endure. Stamped guns are really just a piece of wartime production, plus germans used really thin steel which made the guns subceptable to all sorts of stress problems
Oh man, this is great to actually see one!
What a cool little rifle!!! Thanks Ian!
That is truly fascinating. That is some excellent work.
I am amused by Ian's belief that the Americans liberated Germany :D (25:46) To quote: "From what? Zee Germanz?"
This grainy black metal makes me moist
I'm a bit surprised not to see a grip safety on that backstrap.
Seriously, it looks like Walther engineering went a bit like this:
"Johann, we need a pistol grip for the new autorifle."
"Well, Hans, I rather like the grip on that Polish pistol, why don't we use that, ja?"
"Splendid, Johann, such efficiency. No one questions that you are indeed German."
Ian you are a sarcasm sniper. I never expect the sharp wit and yet you always snipe a laugh out of me!
""You want stamping? We can do stamping. We'll show you more stamping then you could ever imagine." - Walther probably
Nice video Gun Jesus! It still amazes me what you can find. Still waiting for the G11... I believe in you!!! Lol
Gas piston that uses the handguard as the outer cylinder AND it includes a cheese grater. The Germans have always intrigued me with their engineering: but never impressed me. Don't ever stop making videos, Ian. You have access to some of the most interesting collections in history and you truly know your stuff.
What a beauty...great piece of history
Just a thought about the mix of markings on the barrel, is it possible that the barrel blank was originally made for a Kar-98 but was cut down, bored and rechambered (or just cut down and rechambered if the bore was the same) for use in this prototype? That could result in the set of makers/proof marks on it (bys makes the blank, Mauser inspector approves it, CXM bores it, Mauser inspector approves it, Walther requests a barrel with that bore so CXM or maybe Mauser gives it to them and Walther cuts it down and rechambers it for the shorter cartridge).
1:10 Geco is still around making ammunitions. Most Germans know them for their high quality 9mm P.A.K. blank ammuntion.
High quality blanks? What is a high quality blank? I understand a high quality precision cartridge, but I truly don't understand what a "high quality blank" is.
@@cl4998 That's hard to explain to someone who might not know how those specific European blank firing guns work. Those guns are manufactured in a way that they can't fire real ammo, i.e. the barrel is partially blocked and can't be removed.
High quality blank cartridges are made from brass, cycle the gun reliably, eject nicely, have a loud bang and a produce nice flash. And the gun powder burns without clogging up the barrel with soot, because cleaning those barrels is of course quite the hassle.
Those guns might sound quite pointless to someone from the U.S., but because it is impossible to shoot projectiles with them, they are more or less safe to use around people. This makes them a great choice for starter pistols, reenactment and movies.
No dead camera operators with a 9mm P.A.K. gun. Well, unless they get a heart attack.
If they could have simplified this design it seems better than the StG at least with the bolt hold open and the rotating bolt.
While the Luger tool will fit into the opening and release the barrel nut, the round shape of the hole and general availability suggest that it was designed to be released by a cartridge tip.
That hand guard is beautiful
It's really interesting how similar some parts are to the modern day G36... The pins at 8:25 are basically the same, just a bit smaller and the bolt at 16:10 has the exact same system with that guiding piece and the hole for the firing pin. You could almost say they're interchangeable if it wasn't that much bigger than the one the G36.
This rifle seems to be a catastrophe to clean or even for maintenance... It's like a swiss watch i guess. I really wouldn't want to lose those small parts.
Another fantastic video, thanks Ian!
Incredible complicated design, but still beautiful and cool 😎
"Hey guys, I've got a great idea. Let's have the entire upper held together by the muzzle nut and the only thing holding that in place is a tiny little flat spring"
Point of bullet not Luger tool to raise spring and free barrel nut, imho.
I've been to a bunch of different channels with vids about gun history. In the end, I ALWAYS end up back at Forgotten Weapons. Man, I love this stuff, Ian. I've literally spent hours at a time watching these extremely informational vids. Being able to watch them on my big ass TV because of Google Chromecast makes it that much harder to stop 🤣Thank you again!
I wasn't a very big gun guy until around the time I found this channel. Now I just want to go shoot shit! Lol 😆 This '0223' Norinco SKS my Dad just inherited from my uncle has been calling my name. The first year Ruger New Model Single Six is, too. I've never shot a single action revolver...in any caliber. Can't wait.
it's very nice classic looking
I began to see similarities with my memories of handling Lithgow manufactured inch pattern L1A1 SLR 62 and 63 prefix serials making the rifles two or three years older than me in the late 80s early 90s. Then I watched in horror as Ian disassembled this weapon. OMG, let's just say that I would quite happily stick with my SLR bang stick than have to care for and maintain that thing of way too many parts just itching to get lost at a critical life or death moment. Thank God for the SLR, right arm of the Free World.
In terms of aesthetics, this is a beauty.
that gas-piston-bolt-carrier-guide-group-thingy is fascinating, I can see how gas blowback could be a major issue... but how about carrier causing 'bolt bonce' because the firing pin out of battery safety?
oh, the main spring is impinging on the entire assembly from behind the firing pin, problem solved I guess.
damn germans....
Ian, your German is getting better and better!
Ian, a great presentation.
Watching that cheese-grater cover under Schlieren-technique recording would be very interesting to see what effect it would have, if any, on airflow!
@19:27 let me guess there's a sci-fi movie with a gun that looks just like the triger assembly with a few bits taken off/put on? :P
Love your work Ian
Interesting how similar yet how varied the mechanisms used to fire a bullet.
Great video as per usual Ian! I wanted to learn more about trigger groups/systems and how they work. Do you recommend any books for such an inquiry?
A sight with semi realistic ranges. Mother of god.
I suspect that the barrel may have been a mauser rifle barrel originally then recut for a shorter chamber. It even appears to have the same thread pattern.
Increase speed by 10% every time Ian says "sheet metal"
What a beautiful weapon
Just seeing it brings me back to the day of playing call of duty big red one, you know when story and gameplay meant something.
I can't be the only one trying to read the spines of the books in the background. That one about Erwin ROMMEL looks good, have to go find me a copy.
EXPLANATION PLEASE - that extra little safety in the bolt: I understand how it works but I can't grasp the situation when it was actually needed... The primary safety (firing pin/caming cylinder) prevents firing out of battery already. I don't understand what Ian said there about possibility of firing pin sticking out when the bolt caught something before going into that locking channel/chamber/whatever you call it... I can't grasp how it's possible and even if it happened how there would be a cartridge supported by something in front of the firing pin.
KAMOMI Guns sometimes fail to feed so that is one possible situation.
Ian had the coolest job in the world!!!!!
Cool gun. Can definitely see similarities between the bolt on this one and that of the AR15.
Ayy I love Malta. Probably going back this summer.
It looks so oddly futuristic
Tomoko Kuroki probably because guns like this were inspirations for films like Star Wars.
Geco is now well known in germany for manufacturing high qality 9mm PAK cartridges for self-defense blank guns!
TheAngler2210 Self defense blank guns? Could you elaborate?
A Not So Random Throwaway or you stop beeing a lazy dummy and use the Google machine?
Pistols modelled after existing firearms, mostly made out of zanac-alloy (or real guns that never took off commercially as live fire arms so they just used the parts, Walther PK380 for example), with a barrel that is weakened and drilled offset off the center after the chamber and partially plugged (so no projectiles can ever leave the barrel).
Caliber is mostly 9mm PAK (Pistole Automatik Knall or pistol, automatic, blank). Just a crimped casing with a plastic insert to build up pressure, loaded with some really cheap, fast burning smokeless powder.
Alternatively you can also use casings loaded with some pepper spray substitute that launches out to a good 5 meters and is pretty effective, surprisingly. Combined with the shock you get from having a blank 9mm go off in your face, of course.
These can be bought for 120-200€ and carried (concealed, open carry gets you in prison or shot by a nervous cop) for self defense with a license (that you can simply buy for 50€), and its actually not too uncommon.
The police doesnt like it though, i have one in my glove box and the cop made quite the deal out of it even though its perfectly legal.
TheAngler2210 huh, that's neat. Probably wouldn't fit in Finland though, we can't carry in public things that even look like firearms or things that can be used to harm another person.
They kind of negated the whole “use stampings to save on rare metals” thing by building a solid steel rifle inside of the stamped one 😂
I'd think it was the metallurgy that really must have given them fits. 1940's technology combined with wartime conditions to make guns by the millions was the objective of course, but there was no avoiding certain processes, like rifling the bore, which had to be done the hard way and no way around it. And to this very day barrel rifling is still made the same way with the long, long swage through the bore going at about 1 mm every 10 minutes-operation - talk about a production bottleneck lol.
Fantastic!
I suspect that the primary function of what you call the out of battery safety is to push the bolt forward without the cams rotating the bolt before it is in the trunion.
as always, cool gun, nice explanation, cool video!!!
That background suits you perfectly ian
holy shit i never thought you would get your hands on that rare baby.
Would the bolt hold open fail to disengage if the gun was being held sideways or upside-down? Once you put a fresh magazine in and rack bolt the hold open falls down by simple gravity, right?
I'll be interested to hear about your trip!
That "OH Shit!" pin in the bolt makes me remember cleaning M-16A1 bolts way too much. A major failure of both designs...
My goodness me, this looks like it would be very difficult to service in a pinch. So many loose and small parts, what were they thinking?
How many Strumgeveir varients did the Rebel Alliance use?
They passed them around between soldiers because they were much rarer then, unlike the modernized MG-42s with lazor feed mechanism.
Serious question, he said stamped like lower quality metal could be used or was the point of stamped because there was less metal waste? I have always assumed less waste , but can you also use lower quality metal?
red orchestra 2 memories
5:47 demonitized
is it me, or does the trigger pack look less confusing (simpler?)than a normal german trigger group? sometimes i take one look and don't even try.