THE MOST BROKEN SPELL IN D&D 5E 2024! | Nerd Immersion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- So I'm sure you've head about it, well now get ready to see what everyone is saying is "the most broken or overpowered spell in all of D&D 5e 2024". Could this be true? Quite possibly. How often will it actually come up in play? I guess time will tell.
Thanks for watching!
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Humble Kobold: Boy, I sure wish I could train and be as powerful as a red dragon
Drunk Wizard: Hey guess what
Ted I love your tone on this video, and all the others. Sick of TH-camrs who every single video is like “Wizards ruined dnd again with this one spell” bla bla. I appreciate your casual, moderate response. Yes it’s a pretty good chunk of damage, no it has not hollowed the very soul of the franchise.
If you like good logical takes on this stuff you should also watch treantmonk (if you don't already)
Yeah. It is a horrible idea for a spell, spirit shroud was already a bad idea that had way too much synergy with multiattacking and this is about 4 times as powerful as that spell. No it's not big enough for me to be upset to the point where i flip the table and rage quit, I will just nerf or disallow it in my games.
Imo they could have had their cake and eat it too of keeping the conjure spells the classic way with some tweaks and made these new versions called "conduct " that are new soft "hey you can have the conjure spells again ...or you can have this " by introducing them side by side. Like this new woodland beings being "Conduct nature's wrath "
People also never seem to consider that unless you pick up an extra feat then you can only realistically deal that damage if the enemy is specifically 2 or 3 squares away, as within 5 feat they'll get disadvantage to every attack roll.
Im sure the people planning on using their 9th and 8th level slots in a 2 turn damage combo have considered this and are planning to take every feat necessary to maxim8ze its effectiveness
I mean Spell Sniper is a really good feat without even taking this combo into consideration. Warcaster and Spell Sniper are pretty good for general casters.
I'm just glad it specified attack roll. Otherwise this would be INSANE with Magic Missile.
@@EvanFarshadow definitely broken if it worked with magic missile
Not sure if they have changed it in 2024 but in the 2014 version, you only roll a single d4 and apply that to all missiles simultaneously. This is both RAW and RAI. Most tables just like to roll the d4s separately.
@@Dragowolf_Rising i know. It's my favorite thing to do in the game is abusing the RAW and RAI ruling by slapping on 10 levels of Evoker Wizard and 1 level of Hexblade Warlock. Original printing version of Goblin is the best race, slapping on character level damage to one of the darts. Sadly the wording only works for one of the darts, but that's still +level damage to 1 dart.
You mean it's insane with Scorching Ray?
@@Dragowolf_Rising They have changed it or at least Jeremy Crawford talked about it in one of the videos recently I believe.
It's still so much overwhelmingly powerful compared to other spells that buff hit damage. It's completely out of scale when you upcast it, it would've been better if it was 1d8 upcast instead of 2d8, or if the damage was once a turn
I agree that upvasring should have been 1d8, as it is i think it is terrible at 4th level for most players but great at 5th and 6th, after that there as so many crazy spells that is hard to upcast this.
Bards can get it with Magical Secrets also. Valor Bards with a way to get Nick Mastery can make 3 attacks as an action, and then the Dual Wielder Feat let's you get a fourth attack, that you can do for the full ten minutes (if you protect your concentration)... Or just multiclass Warlock for Eldritch Blast to get 4 Cantrip Attacks.
It's not 500 damage with Scorching Ray, but you can do it every turn.
There's a simple solution to this spell. Just change the upcast from 2d8 per additional spell level to 1d8. That's more in line with other spells and cuts the damage a reasonable amount.
I would just make it apply to only one attack per round
@@simondean5227and you would make this spell useless garbage
@@Melix0ff I disagree, it would still scale to 12d8 with crit potential every round and lasts a minute lol
@@simondean5227 and the spell requeries you to hit an attack, and works only on 2nd turn. WOW so bad. Upcasted fireball is better than this
@@Melix0ff better for the game than having it nuke any creature a lvl 20 party encounters lol, run it however you want in your game, I'm running it this way
I don't understand why people go crazy about that. There are a lot of 9th level spell that can do crazy amounts of damage under the right circumstances. Getting the stars to allign to those circumstance is really difficult though. Both meteor swarm and ravenous void can make insane amounts of damage in the right circumstance.
Being within 15 ft of the big endgame boss as wizard for a turn and hope I can mantain concentration is a pretty big gamble.
CME-Scorching Ray is an unserious premise. What IS serious is getting CME as a Valor Bard with a one level dip in Warlock, one level dip in Ranger or Paladin for Weapon Mastery (I actually like 3 levels of Paladin for +cha to attack again) but it does set you back at least one level. So either lvl 18 or only using an 8th level slot we go:
Round 1: CME, Bonus Action Attack Courtesy Valor Bard. Round 2: Attack, Nick, 4x Eldritch Blast, BA attack (various means), is *SEVEN* attacks, no additional resources, every round until you lose concentration, plus that bonus attack on set up round.
My *SINGLE TURN* NOVA is Warlock 1/Fighter 2/Bard 13/Sorcerer 4, Cast 9th level CME, Quicken Eldritch Blast, Action Surge Attack=> Eldritch Blast => Nick = *CME and TEN ATTACKS* Round ONE.
That's *TURN ONE* 120d8 + 8d10 + 2*[weapon damage], and will be feeding low level spells into Sorcery Points to continue making 10 attacks every round at minimal resource cost. I usually take Pact of the Tome with Warlock to get Shillelagh instead of Pact Weapon (similar effect, but scaling damage and I get access to some other spells on top), but 1/10 chance you don't have it on the first round of combat.
Building from Level 1, we rush Valor Bard to 10 for CME (True Strike is as strong as EB until 11 anyway), Warlock 1, Bard 12, then I like Fighter 1, Sorc 4, Fighter 2, but make sure that you get your last feat at either 19 or 20 for Epic Boon.
Feats are pretty open, Musician or Improved Init Origin, 3 Half Feats boosting Cha, Spell Sniper is probably worth it since you're up close and personal, War caster is obvious, Inspiring Leader was good before now increases Cha as well. Resilient Constitution and (ironically) Mage Slayer are good, but since they don't give Charisma it means either replacing one of the others with +2 Cha or waiting until Epic Boon to cap.
You can go even more crazy than this. Take 2 levels in Warlock for Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast and then take 10 levels in Valor Bard, 2 levels in Fighter (action surge and two-weapon fighting), and 6 levels in Draconic Sorcerer (Elemental Affinity). With Magical Secrets, you can pick up Conjure Minor Elementals. Turn 1 you cast Conjure Minor Elementals at 8th level as a bonus action with quickened spell then, take the attack action to make an attack with the Nick property, cast Eldritch Blast, and then make another attack with the light weapon. Action Surge to do that again. On subsequent turns, quickened spell Eldritch Blast and attack for 10 attacks each round, all doing an extra 10d8 damage. In a single turn you can do 12 Eldritch Blasts (1d10+5 force) + 4 light weapon attacks (1d4+5 piercing) with 10d8 damage added on each attack. That's 12d10+160d8+4d4+80+15 = 891 damage on average (max of 1511).
Eldritch Blast now only scales specifically with warlock levels if I'm not mistaken.
@Dragowolf_Rising You are mistaken, that was added in UA5 but reverted in UA7.
Naming wise I’ve been referring to new stuff as 5e24, and any older stuff 5e14. It’s the simplest way I can think of without confusing people with decimals or long titles
Yeah, it's not uncommon for people to be calling it 5.24
@@OrbitalBliss I just think the decimal idea doesn’t work unless you use 5.5
Same 5E24 and 5E14.
@@20hermanator10 So, you'd rather it looks like Season 5 Episode 24 ? Well, I guess everybody's entitled to an opinion.
5.5 is far more elegant than 5e24. That's not even intuitive.
If the monsters getting Reactions with trigger conditions instead of Legendary Actions thing proves to be how the new Monster Manual does things; I imagine there will be stories of people trying to set up this spell combo and then get Reaction hit so hard on the first scorching ray that they fail their concentration check to maintain the spell and lose all those bonus dice for the rest of the rays
@@IruparattsoSama yeah, that's one thing I like about that new Design. Before the BBEG had to wait until the PCs turn was over - now they can potentially stop stuff like that.
So, basically, this is probably best on a high-level Eldritch Knight or a Circle of the Moon Druid.
Edit: Following up on that, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons includes the Dragon-Touched Focus. That's important because its Ascendant feature allows to treat a single casting of a spell as if you'd upcast it to 9th level. Sure, it's a once-a-day thing, but that's a heck of a boost. Plus, if you're starting at a higher level, there's guidelines for what magic items you get and this could be one of them, albeit at its lower levels. You'll just have to make an effort to upgrade it throughout the campaign.
What's also worth mentioning is the multi-targeting of _Chromatic Orb._ If you're up against several creatures with Fire Immunity, it's a nice backup to blast enemies in your radius. I don't think the extra dice will contribute to your bounce potential because of how _Conjure Minor Elementals_ is worded, but I'd wager you'll be happy you have both _Scorching Ray_ and _Chromatic Orb_ for either situation.
Luckily it was confirmed the upcasted chromatic orbs extra dice do contribute to bounce potential! Edit: oh this is about conjure minor elementals isn't it
@@TechnicalTactician Yeah, it's about spreading out damage within _Conjure Minor Elemental's_ range. So, sure, if you want to stack damage on one guy, then _Scorching Ray_ is the way to go. However, if you need to spread out damage, _Chromatic Orb_ is the better choice since each hit will have the _Conjure Minor Elemental_ damage on top of dealing more damage than a single shot from _Scorching Ray._ It makes for a nice alternative to _Fireball_ and especially against enemies with Magic Resistance.
Either way, you'll definitely want Spell Sniper too. Being that close to most enemies is going to put you in melee range a lot.
@@clarkside4493 Yeah, especially since the spell is available to druids and wizards mainly, so there is gonna be some feat tax. But as a wizard player I think I'll figure it out. Also I can't help but imagine the new mage slayer feat will actually do pretty nicely on a wizard, so the pseudo legendary resistance can be used against feeblemind, or the new replacement spell for it. It also works for contact other plane. And abjuration wizard would do great against counterspell by having advantage on the saving throw. And evokers make better cantrip blasters. Since the best part of playing a wizard is all of the spells and doing things with magic other casters couldn't dream of doing.
@@TechnicalTactician The real challenge is going to be maintaining concentration.
Breaking concentration as an effect or attack rider is going to be a lot more common. The earliest example I can think of is the Elder Brain Dragon from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, but now there's also revised _Sleet Storm_ and at least one other spell that simply break concentration on a failed save. War Caster won't help you against those effects since they aren't tied to damage, so keep an eye out. It's a good habit to not become too reliant on concentration spells.
@@clarkside4493 my best bet is the mind sharpener. If someone can get their hands on one from a local artificer or party artificer. Or have two levels in artificer since infusions are gotten at level 2. Though that holds back spell progression if that is what the player is after.
Can we all just agree to call it 5.5? No need to reinvent the wheel here.
5.24 (2024)
Nah, prefer 5e24
5e2 vs 5e1?
I've been calling it 5.24e
I agree that the outcry over this spell is way overblown, but it is worth noting that it has a long duration which can very easily be cast before entering combat, so the pop off would be on the first turn.
Any DM worth their salt will find a way to delay combat from starting for 10 minutes after the 2nd or 3rd time you try this.
@@johncox7169 Or just dispel it.
Or just not let the caster within 15 feet
Or hit the caster for 60+damage and force a failed concentration check before the combo goes off.
Or have the monster be immune/resistant to fire, cold, lightning, and bludgeoning.
Or have it queued up on the boss beforehand, then, once the combo goes off for the boss, the character's soul appears before Mystra who says, "That sucked, didn't it? How about I rewrite the laws of magic, undoing it and making sure it can't happen again?"
Or just have the BBEG randomly have a phase 2.
@@theodorehunter4765 all that to say…. The outcry over this spell is way overblown! :)
The average damage that you can roll 18d6 + 108d8 is 549. That 526 that you rolled is pretty close.
Max rollable damage is 972
I also think the spell is OP but that doesn't necessarily mean it is game breaking. "Overpowered" means it is above the curve for similar effects. Shield is another example of an OP spell, even though the gap is much smaller now that other options have been buffed. The new version if Jump is another one as it essentially increases your speed by 20 feet and can be cast as a bonus action.
I don't think there is any other single effect that allows you to deal more that much additional damage on every single hit. That's why I consider Conjure Minor Elementals OP.
Now do a video on the weapon-swapping 'glitches' people have been talking about related to the new dual wielder feat.
I have seen wild rule interpretations and a lot of people have created a homebrew spell "conjure additional bonus action" to make some of those combinations work...
The dual wielder feat is broken though, in the sense that the wording is extremely wonky.
Sounds like this would be a solid late game choice for an Eldritch Knight Fighter.
@johncollins7631 it would definitely be late game, but yeah a solid choice
Even if you get it at level 18 as a fighter I think it could still be insane. 2d8 is more than the damage dice from any physical weapon so this spell would be stronger than critting every attack for most fighters, while still letting you crit and dealing even more damage. When making 3-4 attacks every turn and having action surge you will really make use of the spell. I'm playing an eldritch knight currently and we just reached level 9 but I'm looking forward to getting access to this spell.
@@gunnarkilborn3915 my brain went 17 wizard 2 fighter 1 hexblade. summon 9th- scorch 8 action surge 7lvl scorch crit on 19-20 crusher feat a crit will render advantage on rest of attacks til the start of your next turn.
@scottd521 why bother with the MAD of adding hexblade and just take fighter to 3 and go champion.
Especially if you use spell scrolls at higher levels- just make sure they have good arcana
If a caster wants to use their 9th and 8th level slots to target a single creature and can SURVIVE being within 15 feet of it, absolutely more power to them - give them that bananas blaster fantasy.
Putting this combo on a 20th level BBEG though. . . that's tasty 😈
That is my idea excactly. It has achance of working under the correct circumstances but any enemie that is very mobile (flight, fast speed, teleportation) can just move out of the way. Any enemy with a very high AC or an ability to give the caster disadvantage is probably difficult to hit reliably with all those rays. Any caster could use caunterspell or dispell magic to keep you from getting it off. There are attacks, minions, lair effects that my concetration needs to survive to get it to work. At 17th level most enemies have resistances so who knows if the damage might not be halved.
@SGast Of the top of my head:
Lich casts globe of invul.
Ancient green dragon breaths on you Con DC 21 or you take 77 damage. Good luck with that DC 36 concentration check.
Drow arachnomancer casts greater invis and just moves. You can't cast see Invis or truesight cause they require concentration and you would have to spend your action on a perception check if you want to know where you should be aiming at. Even then you do so with disadvantage.
Grats, you just spent your only 9th lv spell on nothing.
SQUISHY CASTER FALLACY DETECTED - PREPARE FOR REEUCATION
D8/D6 hp, low AC, bad Con/Dex saves, wild shape nerfed into the ground. You squishy son. If you try tanking and survive, you have an easy mode DM.
Uh I forgot about forced movement. Any enemie that can force you to move, can just push you out of reach and maybe grapple you there.
Valor bard 10, warlock 2, sorcerer 2. Take Quicken Spell, Agonizing Blast, and Pact of the Blade.
You're 14th level. You can Quicken Spell Conjure Minor Elementals at 6th level and attack using a hand crossbow and Eldritch Blast. That's 3 beams for 1d10+6d8+5 each and a shot for 1d4+6d8+5. That's an average of 35 per hit. On the first turn it's an average of 85 damage if you hit only 60% of the time. Any turn after that, for the next 10 minutes, you'll be doing an average of 150 damage a turn with the same chances to hit simply by using 2 sorcery points - the equivalent of a second level spell, which you'll have plenty of.
That humbles every martial in the game, and they're supposed to be the kings of single target damage. It's broken, and only gets worse from there as you get higher level spell slots and more Eldritch Blast beams. It basically gets to a point where you can comfortably one-shot any monster in the game.
The way that I see playing this is starting with 7 Wizard levels to get the spell, then take 1 level in Warlock for Eldritch Blast, then 2 levels in Sorcerer for Quickened Spell. Turn 1 at level 10 would be Quickened Conjure Minor Elementals at 5th level and attack with Eldritch Blast, then next turn cast Scorching Ray at level 3 and just delete things. You could then turn two level 1 slots into sorcery points and be able to do it again but with Minor Elementals at 4, and after an Arcane Recovery you could do it a THIRD time in a single day.
And that’s not even mentioning the big power boosts that you get at levels 11 and 12 with EB improving and a new slot level.
Didn't they change EB to scale with lock levels instead of total levels? Between the videos and UA i am getting confuse to where we lande in the final product.
@@christophertherians2243 I haven’t seen anyone specifically cover it but I know it was reverted back into being a spell instead of a class feature, so I would think it scales with character level again.
the "smal version" is take 1 warlock / 2 Sorcerer / 17 lvls of Bladesinger or 1 Warlock / 2 Sorcerer / 17 Valor Bard and you cast CME pre engage since 10 min / lvl withextend will last forever @9th lvl ....
1st round you do : attack, eldritch blast ( for your extra attack ), twf nick attack, bonus action: scorching Ray ( 8th lvl ) = 15 attacks each with +12d8
2nd round : attack, eldritch blast, twf nick attack, font of magic ( regain your sp )
rinse, repeat ....
Overkill version : 1 warlock / 2 sorcerer / 15 valor bard / 2 ftr which will give you 20 attacks once / short rest
One niche thing I'm going to enjoy doing is using Overchannel with a 5th-level CME. While not maximizing the damage of the spell, +32 guaranteed damage/hit is still a nice bonus until you unlock 9th level slots
@@cskelton definitely
It's actually not as difficult to cast all that in one turn. You just need to be a level 17 Wizard/Bard with Magical Secrets to get 9th level slots and Quickened Spell only requires two levels of Sorcerer, leaving you 1 level left to multiclass into Warlock and get Eldritch Blast.
I totally get where you're coming from Ted, but please consider this: 17th level wizard casting Timestop with his 9th level slot, Conjure minor elementals with the 8th level slot, Scorching Ray with the 7th level slot. Then you can continue using Scorching Rays with the left over turns from time stop, if there were any.
Well Time Stop ends once you do something that effects another creature, so you'd only really get the first scorching ray off
@@NerdImmersion Mhhh true, true, forgot about that interaction. In that case, even the first scorching ray wouldn't go off. Since the emination of the Conjure Minor Elementals already effects another creature by making the area the enemy has to be in to be effected by the d8's of damage difficult terrain. Whiiiich makes my first comment obsolete, yikes :D Still thanks for the answer!
People keep trying to make it very complicated. A blade singer with two levels of fighter and a knick weapon just lets this spell explode in damage with any spell slot lvls.
Valor bard is better.
How so@@brannenpfister2579
Yeah I think one relatively simple argument you can make is compare a valor bard or bladesinger vs a paladin of the same level. When you get to 9th or 11th level, it's like having that paladin's max level smite (at 9th level) or better (11th+ level) on every attack on every turn, while the paladin will be limited to only twice per day once per turn, at the cost of a single turn (though you could pre-cast this). Plus you get CC out of it, too.
The burst theorycrafting is cool but the sustain damage on this is much crazier imo. Divine smite is kind of the poster boy burst damage option, and CME can beat its raw damage per attack AND make it sustained.
Average damage of 18d6+108d8 is 550
Average AC of CR17 monsters is 19
Likely attack bonus for scorching ray at level 17 is +11 (+5 INT/WIS, +6 Prof.)
So each ray has a 65% chance of hitting, before ADV/DIS.
65% of 550 damage is 357.5 damage....still pretty high.
That's not too far off what evoker hexblade did before with an 8th and 9th level magic missile: ~304.5
But you still have to put a caster within 15 feet of their target. If it is a boss just have maybe 3 strong minions that are designed to intercept insta-kill classes like this. You can also make the big bad resistant or immune to elemental damage as many are already. And anyway this insane damage is only at the highest levels of play where the wish spell already exists, I dont think this is as big of a deal as people think.
You are trying to bump the max damage rather than go for sustain heavy damage. Beginning of day you cast foresight with 9th level spell, then in combat you cast conjure elementals at 8th level, now you are dealing 11d8 bonus damage. Now you attack twice as bladesinger, or you cast any multi-hit spell, or you do anything that lets you hit a couple of times and it gives you a huge amount of damage per turn, for each turn. IF you have level 9 spells then you have feats like spell sniper that remove disadvantage from your spells and foresight gives you advantage on all your attacks which means you will hit more often and crit more often. It also means your enemy has disadvantage on attacks which means you won't get hit nearly as much which prevents you from losing concentration.
This spell makes any gish a monster because valor bards can take this, get extra attacks, even take Eldritch Blast for multiple attacks. Its all out of the box too without having to use a billion different feats.
15 levels of Scribes Wizard and 2 Levels of Tempest Cleric turns this into a juicy 972 lightning damage.
Perfect to use against a Shambling Mound!
The fact that this would be only a slightly high roll for hitting just 4 creatures with a meteor swarm.
2 level dip in monk woulda been pretty nice as well to use bonus action
The funniest thing is conjure minor elementals isnt even close to the most damaging spell atm, but people dont realize it because they cant understand teamwork at the table. No, the real thing is with the amount of pushing and grappling and the grappler feat giving full movement while grappling and a free grapple per turn, the absolute most broken damage is still the spike growth cheese grater method. Its actually way more broken in the new rules. Run in a circle around the spike growth as a monk with full monk movement speed and dash, and every 5 feet you move the enemy they take 2d4 damage no save, with no penalty to movement. Or just keep pushing and knocking people into it. Its crazy, getting a few attacks with a weapon wont come close for most levels of play.
I feel like it's a lot easier to make this spell broken than is being let on here. If we're going to lvl 17, do 10 lvls of Valor Bard to grab Conjure Elementals, 2 lvls of sorc for quickened spell, 2 lvls of warlock for eldritch plast, pact of the blade, and agonizing blast, along with 2 lvls fighter for action surge, and another lvl wherever you want (Paladin?). Bonus action cast Conjur Elementals at whatever lvl you want, attack action replace one attack with Eldritch Blast, action surge and repeat. 10 attacks on the first turn of combat with the bonus damage from Conjure Elementals. Then you can either spend following turns casting Scorching Ray or attack action and replace one attack with Eldritch Blast for 5 attacks every round without using any spell slots. And then you still have all the versatility of Bard and Sorcerer Metamagic
And if that's too high level, a lvl 12 character with 10 in valor bard and 2 in warlock is basically fully online. The other 4 lvls aren't absolutely necessary.
Won't work on Tiamat as the Scoring Ray is a Rank 1 or 2 Spell and she is unaffed by Rank 6 and below
Valor Bard ( twf, 2 attacks, 1 nick attack, 1 dw attack ) -> 3x 1d6 +5 ( stat ) + 2 ( weapon ) + 12d8 + others boni + 1x 1d6 +2 + 12d8 ~270 dmg ( just melee ) if you count potion of speed that would go up to ~350
Bladesinger can do the same
Did they change access to scorching ray in 5.5? In 2014 rules the only Druid sublcass that I can find that has access to it is Circle of Wildfire?
@unknowncomic4107 yeah, this would be more for the wizard to do, as they have both spells
Yea I think the most you can do with this is with a tempest cleric 2 dip so you do max damage if you change the damage type (meta magic, scribes wizard, etc.)
You can also get around the two turn set up by using a 10 chronurgy wizard, tempest cleric 3, sorcerer 7. This lets you cast both spells in one turn but not at max levels.
Valor bard, dual wielder, 4 attacks, magical secrets, 9th level slots, 12d8 extra damage per attack.
is it a lot of damage? yes
is it a lot of damage for two rounds, a 9th and 8th level spell slot, and not missing a single attack roll? not really.
Valor with the one level dip in fighter can do this at level 18 and you can make up to four attacks.
Honestly, this would be a fun spell to add to an eldritch knight at higher levels. Sure, you're not getting the super high damage potential, but you get consistent extra damage so long as you make your Con saves, which Resilient Con can help with.
With a wizard 7 warlock 1 you can probably (I don't have the books) do a quickened spell eldrich blast (picking up metamagic adept) after casting the summon minor elementals for
2*(1d10+4+2d8) = 2*(5.5+4+9) = 2*18.5 = 39 damage, this is decent, but for a 4th level slot on single target, spread over 2 attack rolls, its meh for the level,
The real kicker is that next turn, you can upcast scorching ray to 3rd level, and eldrich blast again for:
39 (eldrich blast) + 4*(2d6+2d8) = 39+4*(7+9) = 39+4*16 = 39+64 = 103 damage, assuming everything hits, since its around 100, you can easily calculate your damage if you know your hit chance, for example, a hit chance of 65% will get you about 66 damage.
It is NOT on the Sorcerer list, however if you want to do the stupid thing at 20th level, you can go 7 levels in wizard for conjure minor elementals, 1-3 levels in warlock for eldrich blast +invocations, 3 in Sorcerer for the meta magic, and the rest in sorcerer or wizard to have access to 9th level slots. Assuming multiclassing is unchanged, this should allow you to cast conjure minor elemental with your 9th level slot, while still being able to eldritch blast as a bonus action with no legacy content.
Again, the silly is indeed very unlikely, however I can see a bladesinger wizard picking this and eldrich blast, going:
Turn 1: Conjure minor elementals, activate bladesong, and valiantly position behind cover
Turn 2: Run up, eldrich blast with 2 beams, shoot with a hand crossbow, bonus action shoot with a hand crossbow for 4 attacks total
Turn n: Repeat turn 2
It takes minimal resource investment and effectively makes you a better martial at level 7+, if we discount legacy content (blade singer) You can still make 2 attacks with hand crossbows, maybe go a fighty subclass bard, and pick up minor elemental with your magical secrets, or have it come online at level 8 for a warlock dip. Alternatively, just attacking with truestrike, and with a bonus action should be okay.
The biggest thing is that this would put the squishy close to melee, which is actually interesting in my opinion, as currently, most gish wizards run out of reasons to be in melee around level 9+ because they have combat defining spells to cast and safeguard.
Is it broken? I would say it will probably have a spot similar to fireball, if you have access, and have the ability to get close and make attacks, this is by far the best option, and silly effective at doing it, however I would say that it is not broken, like the spell options that straight up invalidate things.
Basically no spell on any build is worth upcasting 5 whole levels, no matter the build, and even if the spells upcast benefits are probably a bit too high. Not even spirit guardians is worth upcasting that high. That CME isn't broken when upcast to 9th level doesn't necessarily mean it's upcast benefits are not broken levels of high. I'd personally argue it's at it's biggest problem when cast at 5th or 6th level on a 13th level character, where it's basically a holy weapon that does twice or thrice as much damage, plus other benefits, that works for duel wielding and spell attacks, all for the same spell level.
TLDR: It's broken when cast at 5th, 6th and maybe 7th level, not 4th, 8th, or 9th. The spell is fine design, but the upcast benefit should have been only a single dice, or even one dice every two levels like spirit shroud is.
I think 48d8 of damage every turn for 10 minutes might be an exception to that rule. And that's without doing anything weird other than just dual wielding with your wizard. If you expend the lower level spell slots to do scorching ray with it you do much more damage. Conjure Minor Elementals at 9th level before you even start the fight since it's duration is 10 minutes and then casting a scorching ray at 8th level is 108d8 of damage and that doesn't include the scorching ray damage. That takes your final boss from healthy to dead in one move.
@@anarchclown I'm looking at CR22 monsters right now and pretty much all of them will survive that combination. Some of them pretty easily, and a few only barely. You can expect around 302 points of damage against a target with 21 AC. Many have resistances or other defensive capabilities that can deal with it. Others have absurd numbers of HP due to being mythic.
And no DM worth their salt will throw a single CR22 enemy at the level 20 Party and call it a day.
It's strong, but not that overpowered.
@@Rubycule A few things. 1. You can do this at level 17, no need to be level 20. 2. 300 damage is still way more than anyone else can do at that level and that assumes your party hasn't found a way to give you advantage on those attacks. 3. Taking 302 HP off of the big bad is still a problem and a lot more power than your level 9 spells that you are chosing not to cast would do (for example meteor swarm would do about 70 assuming they still have a legendary save which most of them should) and since you can choose which element you're using chances are most of them do not have resistance to what you are throwing at them. Chosing "not cold" against the ancient white dragon isn't that hard for example.
It's definitely a problem spell. One that lots of people reacted to back in the playtest but that they chose to publish as is anyway for some reason. And it's definitely a lot more powerful than spells like it in the past that have already been seen as very powerful for certain builds.
@@anarchclown 1. True. Doesn't really change that much for encounter building though. 2. Wrong. You are talking about single target damage only. And I didn't factor in any other parameters as those overcomplicate things and can be applied to both parties. 3. You are comparing an AoE spell designed to decimate armies to a spell that is designed to buff individual attacks. Meteor Swarm can easily deal hundreds of damage more than CME. Just not against a single enemy.
Also, I never claimed the spell wasn't overpowered in some way. Only that your assessment of it killing bosses in one shot was wrong.
@@Rubycule Fair enough. Most bosses are only crippled in one attack while some with lower AC or less hit points are obliterated.
And yes, Meteor Swarm is an army killing spell. It is also the highest single target damage spell that I could think of. If you have another old spell that does more I'm more than willing to update my reference. :)
17 bard probably valor 2 fighter. Bard magical secrets grants access to this spell. You cast the spell, action surge, attack twice then with the new light weapon and dual wielding feat combo have 2 more attacks on your bonus action. 4 attacks possibility of 48d8 on turn 1.
The real most broken spell is spike growth, despite being a copy pasta. When they made monk a grappler and buffed the grappler feat, they doomed every enemy that is not immune to being grappled. The spell lets monks weaponize their movement speed with guaranteed damage. Goliath/wood elf Monks with druid friends can, starting at level 4, do guaranteed 30d4 damage every turn that they have an enemy grappled. And that is not counting their attack or main action dash if they kept the grapple to their next turn. It only gets more ridiculous from there, if they have another friend cast haste on them, and with monk just naturally getting higher movement as they level. And, the only thing that it costs is a single level 2 spell slot (and a level 3 if hasted for even more damage).
This spell is incredibly powerful on a 14th level+ Valor Bard, but even then it's pretty reasonable.
Most campaigns fizzle around 10-12, so it's still not even an issue.
Best assassin build, you need scry, conjure minor elementals, scorching ray and teleport. Wait for them to go to sleep teleport in with minor elementals already up and fire either just the first one will be a crit or they'll all be crits depending on how you rule the spell, but whatever it is is certainly not going to get back up.
Bladesinging Wizard 17, Assassin 3 in combination with this spell can be nice with extra attack and critical hits.
I encourage you to watch the treanmonk video that just came out
The combo you described is basically the worst case scenario for conjure elementals
13:50 def gonna give my fighter a ring of spell storing with a 5th level conjure minor elementals 😭😭
Yeah.
It becomes game breaking long before 17th level. Even at 200-300 damage you would take out any monster instantly
Have your Simulacrum cast Wish to instantly duplicates the Hallow spell and making creatures Vulnerable to Fire damage.
I'm always tentative with new stuff and have done a good job with making my players aware when things they have are too broken like the Aura of the Open Sea Paladin, so I'm okay with letting them try this in some side campaigns, but for my main story driven one I think I'll ban it until we get a better feel for it and the combos it will provide to the party.
As for Tiamat or Bahamut- this combo would do exactly 0 damage when they are immune to everything
Now I just need to figure out how to cast this with a monk lol.
I've noticed a few "broken" spells in the new 5e. Armor of Agathys being another one. The new wording says that its a bonus action and as long as you have temp hp the spell stays up. So you can basically use other buffs on top of A of A and have it up all the time.
@@twil004 it's definitely an improvement but I wouldn't necessarily call it broken
@@NerdImmersionit’s not since it’s only available to Warlock using just these books here and iirc aren’t warlocks one of the classes that you can’t get into with Magic Initiate now?
Totally agree, there is so many new way to get temporary hit poin, moon druid, polymorph, power word fortify (good luck taking this down if your cleric pump only the one with agathys), fiend warlock. you can upcast it and keep it going for so long and all it take to get its 1 dip.
@@LeakysTV I want to try warlock druid with that combo it would be good.
@@Razdasoldier there is also other way to get that spell like dwarf mark of warding
Might be an interesting option for Contingency. A level 5 CME is still +4d8 per hit, and if the trigger is something like "When I cast Scorching Ray with my highest level spell slot on an enemy within 15 feet of me" then you don't have to worry about the setup turn.
As far as the self range, spell gem or for lower you could throw a 5th lvl in a ring of spell storing and get an extra 18 avg damage per hit.
You'd think this would be something to use on the Tarrasque, but then you'll realise afterwards that it has a Reflective Carapace and what that means for you, who won't have access to *Shield* or *Absorb Elements* due to the new 1 spell slot per turn rule.
Now imagine using this spell against a creature with a thorns-like ability.
"I cast sawed-off shotgun."
I think a duel hand crossbow wielding bard should snag this spell. From what I've seen of how that would look.
This isn't any more powerful, in terms of total damage dealt in a round, than hitting just 4 separate creatures with Meteor Swarm. If you hit say, 12 creatures with Meteor Swarm, you would have to keep concentration on CME for several rounds and burn all of your high level spells to do comparable damage total. This combo just lets you burst on one target.
I won't be surprised if we see stuff that will affect aura stuff. I.E Moster abilities and maybe magic items.
My 2 cents.
Meme comment: fly above the creature and attack it opening a bag of rice, each grain of rice will the extra xd8 of damage.
Serious comment:
Pretty much agree with the video, at 4th level probably not worth it, 5, 6 and maybe 7 seem to be the sweet spot, if you had a 9th level spell to burn it would be on foresight to guarantee advantage and improve the real DPR of this thing.
I think its fine. The example with Scorching Ray sounds fantastic but this is theoretical. Actual gameplay is often not the same.
does anyone know what is going on with the subscription tab on dndbeyond?
1 level of fighter gives CON saves and nick mastery. Then later you can get Action Surge. Fighter 2 / Bladesinger 18. Turn 1: BA Bladesong, Cast CME, Action Surge Attack and True Strike on turn 1. 3 x (3.5 + 5 [DEX] + 5 [INT] + 12x4.5) + 3x3.5 = 213 DPR
Sounds like conjure minor elementals will pair really nicely with magic missiles for guaranteeing the rider damage
Magic missile does not count as an attack
@@NerdImmersion I wish wotc was better at clarifying intent when using key terms, especially when those words have a general understood meaning.
Conjure elemental's wording of "any attack you make" reads as much more open ended than "an attack requiring an attack roll".
Something as simple as bolding the word attack, to signify their intended definition of "requiring an attack roll" would make it so much clearer.
@stonewielder582 I would agree, but again magic missile doesn't list any attack of any kind, it just does damage. That hasn't changed between editions, so doesn't come across as confusing for me
@@NerdImmersion it may not list the word attack in the spell and by the rules of the game magic missile doesn't meet the criteria of an attack, it will also makes perfect sense to a player to say I'm attacking someone with magic missile so why shouldn't CME work?
Considering this revision of 5e is supposedly to entice new players and make things easier to understand, this should've been a pretty simple thing for someone to pick up on. Any time wotc are using a word that has a separate meaning than the plain common understanding of that word, maybe identify it to avoid confusion.
Also pretty surreal to be conversing with you, love the content.
i Think a Blade singer with a dip into fighter for action surge and nick can do a lot with this spell at level 9, it last 10 minute so possibly can be cast before combat and last multiple rooms of a dungeon (like spirit guardian often does)
Valor bards are going to to nuts with this spell.
It's not broken, but it is poorly designed. I really thought one of the focuses in this iteration was going to be balancing to add choice. I always liked Treantmonk's explanation of when certain things are too good you almost don't have a choice but to take them because to leave them behind is to get left behind compared to other characters. They absolutely had to have play tested this in an optimized build and see that damage potential, so why leave it? Things like this that make it easy to lean more and more into DC20.
Also since you mentioned it just being Druids and Wizards it's worth pointing out that bards with magical secrets can get it, and this on a Valor bard with some sorc dip is interesting. Comes on later than wizard but if you're going to 17-20 for the max damage it works out either way.
Conjure Animal is another that in the PDF does 2d10, that levels to +1d10 per level, a druid Spiritual Guardian
Scribes Wizard would let you change the damage type of both Scorching Ray and Conjure ME to avoid resistances 👀
Honestly, things should get busted at level 18+. Who actually plays epic level D&D that isn't a 1-to-5 shot, or the campaign is reaching it's zenith and is about to end? Players should be nearing demi-god level power by this point.
I generally dislike guides, build, optimizers, etc that talk about how crazy some random 20th level build can be. Especially when a lot of those builds don't come "online" till 15th level or so anyway.
Now being 10th level and doing this combo with 5 scorching rays is still dang good damage, but a wizard does put himself in a lot of harms way to hopefully shotgun blast and delete a single big bad in the first 2 turns.
While it does take 2 turns a 10 minute duration is likely to give you a chance to cast conjure minor elements before combat begins.
I have also seen posts of other ways to get even greater levels of damage out of conjure minor elementals. Building on it I got to and average of 959 damage at level 17 if all attacks hit but not crits with a more realisitc 7th level cast of minor elementals and no levelled spell cast on subsequant turns.
I do not want to post the details here to steal the thunder of the content creator who came up with it (the video has not yet been made free for non-subscribers and when it does it will coincide with anoher video of a similar vain). I also do not know whether it is acceptable to say here who the content creators are.
Could an Evoker Wizard use Overchannel to do the max?
Thanks for your reviews! Any word yet on when we’ll start seeing previews of the DMG?
The issue is it's Spirit Shroud, but litterlly 2-4x better
Unless the new monster manual changes CR, I think the new CR clause of Find Familiar is even more broken. I will ride a Giant Fly into battle, mark my words.
The gatling gun combo... should be the name of this spell.
Tiamat (Aspect or from rise of Tiamat) Aspect of Bahamut, The Tarrasque, Any Greatwyrm... (These assume they do their awakening) That is kinda it for things that could tank this... provided they all hit.
With the Tarrasque it just bounces right off its Reflective Carapace, Tiamat is just immune to spells of 6th level or lower (I don't really know if upcasting gets around that or not though). Great Wyrm is gonna go down in two rounds assuming they don't immediately shatter the wizard's concentration with a legendary action attack and the full force of their dragon breath. Aspect of Bahamut would go down to 0, immediately rise from the dead at 500, and then blast the Wizard for 12d10 radiant, almost assuredly breaking concentration.
@@wblakekimber upcasting does get around Tiamats thing. Though checking now she is immune to all relevantdamage types anyway so barring shenanigans involving metamagic or order of scribes no effect. Good catch on the Reflecive carapace. Odd that you had seperate entries for the aspects and greatwyrms as the Awakening ability is the same between them as is the very likely to break concentration breath weapon.
@@erikkesler1739 I just forgot greatwyrms could do that too
Ok, semantics question since it can be done at least one way but
Does it say that the damage is triggered when you hit with an attack roll or when you deal damage? If it is damage then magic Missile would work. Either way I feel that the take away from this is as a Wizard or Druid you should take a feat that will allow you to get Eldridge Blast and Meta magic Adept for Quicken Spell. Now you quicken your Elemental aura at the highest level (theoretically 9th for 12d8 or 53 avg then your EB does 4 bolts that can target the same creature so 1D10+48d8 or avg 234 per round. Then next combat use the 8th lvl so 202 per round on the lvl 8 slot
I'm not gonna blow my top two slots for one alpha strike. I'll just throw a multi target cantrip and make most anything a round 1 kill.
I just want to know what the build is that lets you cast a ninth level Druid/ wizard spell and an eighth level sorcer spell.
scorching ray is wiz, sorc
so bards can get it, even a light clr ( no mc ) could go that route, but he could only do that once / 2d4 days or so
Scorching Ray is a wizard spell, so you could definitely do the majority of this with just a wizard.
@@shoganmajere7913 I think he said Sorcerer specifically because he wants to Quicken an 8th level Scorching Ray... However, Quicken spell specifically says you can't cast any leveled spell on the same turn (bypassing that whole "using a spell slot jargon"), so I don't think it would work anyway.
@@johncox7169 Now I have to rewatch because I thought he said the spell way a concentration and it would take two turns.
Make it a Fire Giant Species and you get to add a d12 fire damage per attack roll hit.
Yeah, I’ve been saying this for a week.
It makes a Spore Druid with Polearm Master do 25d8 of damage at least. It’s wild and I’m grateful that only Druids and Wizards get it.
Valor bards
@@Razdasoldier Wait, they get it as well!?
F#%**!!!!!
@acephas3 level 10 they get access to all wizard, cleric, druid spells
bards as the others wrote
sorcerer ( wish spell )
clrs ( lvl 20 miracle )
@@shoganmajere7913 wish doesn't upcast it
Is there a high level spell that'd let you do more damage tho? I don't know the math or many of the new spells but if ya have 9th level spells, isn't it better to cast meteor swarm or something?
people when they see something even remotely interesting to build something upon and not the usual "make a save, avoid damage" thing: "AAAAH IT'S BROKEN WOTC BAD BUHUHU"
the best play would be getting access to as many free attacks as possible, pretty much anyone can do 4 attacks between actions & bonus actions, + the big 10 minute duration, if your not knocked outta concentration or dispelled it’ll b thousands upon thousands of damage no extra spell slots expended
even a sorcerer ( ok he needs wish to cast minor elementals ) can get 3 attacks ( melee / round ) : attack, nick attack, dual wielder feat
And if he really needs to push the dmg, dump the dw feat attack for a quickened scorching ray
6th ed is turning into mathfinder/ pathfinder
People need to remember that a single Meteor Swarm can do an average of 35840 damage if you manage to fill the entire area with enemies. Magic will always be crazy strong in the exact right circumstances. Like you said, this not only requires setup it also assumes you actually hit with everything. It's strong for sure but not exactly game-destroying.
the way I'd build around this is Warlock 1 (take agonising blast as your level 1 invocation)/Wizard 7/Sorcerer X. Charisma as main stat, just 13 Int for the multiclass as conjure minor elementals doesn't care about its casting stat. Ideally precast it before a fight, but if you can't you can quicken a eldritch blast on the turn you cast it. every other turn, you cast eldritch blast as your action, and quicken another. If you're feeling extra spicy, take Bladesinger as your Wizard subclass and dual wield scimitars, so that you can add one or two weapon attacks in as well (1 normal attack and a nick attack if you can get weapon mastery into the build)
This build at level 18 with Dex 16 and Cha 20 gets you a maximum average output of ~258 [4d10+20+48d8] damage on turn 1 (rather than no damage turn 1) and ~634 [8d10+2d6+43+120d8] every subsequent turn for just the single level 9 spell slot and no others, whilst also using a far less resisted damage type on the triggering spell (Force vs Fire). If you're going to 20, I'd take 2 more Warlock levels at levels 19 and 20, pick up Pact of the Blade and Grasp of Hadar as the 2 extra Invocations so you can use Cha with your weapon and pull anyone outside of the Minor Elements range towards you, and take Hexblade specifically for Hexblades Curse. That'll give you an extra 6 damage on every attack (so 60 per turn, taking us to 704 damage per turn) and an expanded crit range on one priority target per short rest.
Its actually pretty functional too rather than just a theory craft build, because it starts out with decent level 1 damage (eldritch blast + agonising blast + hex) and keeps scaling the whole way, with big power spikes at levels 5 (extra beam), 7(bladesinger extra attack), 8 (conjure minor elementals), 10 (metamagic), 11 (3rd beam) and of course almost full spell slot progression. Your best spell slot is for conjure minor elementals and all others can be burned for sorcery points as needed. Outside of combat you've got tons of utility magic, high charisma and potentially telepathic shenanigans if you go aberrant mind as your Sorcerer subclass, so its very good outside of combat situations too
Eldritch Blast now only scales specifically with warlock levels if I'm not mistaken.
@@Dragowolf_Rising that was the case during one playtest where it was changed to be a warlock class feature I think, but its been reverted to just being a cantrip exclusive to the warlock spell list and they've changed things like magic initiate and magical secrets to no longer be able to access the warlock spell list instead. So it should work just fine and scale with character level like any other cantrip, otherwise warlock multiclassing is almost completely dead
@@unholyxeras8182 maximum average output? What is that even supposed to mean? Did you forget you also need to hit with your attacks? And don't come at me with Innate Sorcery, that only works on sorcerer cantrips. So no advantage on those blasts.
@@Rubycule advantage is super easy in 2024. The Lucky origin feat, making something Prone through Hill Giant Goliath then attacking from 5ft away, another party member using a spell, ability or weapon mastery to render an enemy subject to advantage. Personally I'd probably just be a Kobold, and prioritise attacking enemies engaged with my party members for Pack Tactics advantage, but there's a lot of options. Admittedly though, I didn't account for either missed attacks or critical hits, so yes it would be a bit lower depending on enemy AC. That said the damage is high enough that functionally it will be irrelevant. You don't get any kind of advantage from an increased amount of overkill after all.
As for what I meant by maximum average damage - I meant the average damage of a maximum spell slot conjure minor elementals, with the maximum number of attacks triggering it, in this case 10. I don't think a higher number is achievable. Hence, the maximum possible average damage
@@unholyxeras8182 Luck is limited to 6 times per long rest, prone will impose disadvantage on your blasts, Vex will only grant you advantage on one attack IF you hit. Kobolds don't have Pack Tactics as of MotM and the new PHB follows the philosophy of only the most recent reprint being valid.
And yes, it is possible to gain more attacks via an upcast and quickened Scorching Ray (15 to be precise, 9 rays, 4 blasts, extra attack and Nick).
But I doubt bladesinger will be allowed unchanged at most tables going forward. Especially since the Eldritch Knight got an adjustment specifically to avoid an attack being replaced by Eldritch Blast.
I did the math on some CR 21+ creatures. You won't be able to one shot all bosses as others have claimed. I'm not saying CME is not overpowered, it is, but it isn't game warping either.
I still say that eldritch blast is the problem and not cme
A lich could use this combination of a PC, right?
This is exactly the kind of thing you should be able to do if you manage to make it to level 17.
Kobold Con 2024??? What is this sorcery?
Moon druid+this=yay
I think it will be a 45' radius. It gets +5' per ssl.
That's in the UA version, not the final printed version
@@NerdImmersion ah. Copy that.
the valor bard version of this is a tad stronger then the scorching ray version. ITs like 15 varlor bard, 2 fighter, 2 sorc, 1 warlock. Replacing attacks with EB per and using quicken EB, action surge for more EB. Forget how it all works exactly but it goes up to like 22-25 attacks. Tie this into bugbear for even more!
Would this work with Magic Missile??
Nope. Magic missile doesn't make attacks, so it's impossible to meet the requirements to get the damage boost.
The cartomancer feat lets you cast a spell using your bonus action without spending a slot, and by the new casting rules, you could cast CME and scorching ray at the same turn as a wizard, you can also get 1 level or sorcerer to use sorcery incarnate and get advantage on all attack rolls
So this is just upgraded Spirit Shroud? Which wizards already have access to and is one level lower to cast? I’m also assuming the spell in question is concentration so all you can hold onto is this so no haste or any other buffs coming from you?
Yeah the sky isn’t falling and this isn’t broken folks idk what else to tell you