Just commenting to help the algorithm as I think you lads are just swell. The evolution of this channel has been great to see. From Richard telling Austin why he should read certain books, to now a full on discussion on fantasy tropes. But beyond it all, I love how you've keep the silliness and tomfollery. You guys remind me of my friend group. You're rambles are excellent. Keep up the great work lads! Delete TH-cam ;)
"Delete TH-cam".....Damn you guys called me out on my TH-cam addiction 😂 I was listening to this entire podcast while working (software dev) but I didn't know I was going to get roasted like that in the middle 🤣 I like to listen to TH-cam videos while I'm working lol I guess they why I got so far into the podcast. Plus you guys are hilarious 👍 Also, I am doing a Wheel of Time first read and I am currently reading "The Shadow Rising" and I am HYPED I am going to get your guy's take and reaction to each book. Super excited for those wheel of time review videos.
"Self insert" characters can be good, a lot of people view Tyrion as GRRM's self-insert but he has many very obvious flaws and is a beloved character. I think that's the thing about tropes, some might be worse than others, in the sense that they are generally used in bad ways but any trope has the potential to be good.
You guys rock. Love the podcast, love the shorts. Love it all. The two of you rekindled my love for fantasy reading and my brother and I started a mini book club to read your recommendations. Thank you for being you. And the fact that your egos are healthy enough to realize that nobody should be listening is a plus. There are no podcasts that NEED to be heard..it gets me thinking about books and that's what I like.
What a kind comment - thank you for the pick-me up! Wow. You starting a book club and getting back into reading fantasy with your bro is about the best thing I could possibly hear short of Richard quitting the pod. Heres to wishful thinking 😭. But seriously big thanks for taking the time to watch and leave this kickass comment
Richard just made my heart swoon with that mention of Daredevil season 3. I never see it talked about and had to rewind to make sure I heard it right 😂 Such a perfect season of TV, Austin my guy you MUST get to it at some point
Tickle me’chimbers Nice one lads. I think what I like about your stuff is it feels like your in the room. As someone whose finished writing an epic fantasy and in the process of querying agents - but without many people in my life to nerd out with. Your channel scratches that itch
1:35:00 Sorry, but I'm with Austin here. The Hobbits are not Farmboys. Frodo, Merry and Pippin are the Offspring of upper class Hobbits and haven't worked a day in their lifes. They have small horizons and like their homeland, but they aren't hard working and also not really modest in their lifestyle as a typical farmboy. They spend their time reading, drinking, chilling, doing mischief and dreaming of running away to find Elves. Oh and delete TH-cam
"Delete TH-cam" is a good merch print idea XD I am here for the rambling. No filter rambling is what I like 😂 Also, would love to know where you would place the 'crazy/wise hermit/fool' trope
Yes! Bring back pure evil villains! I think a lot of people confuse pure evil villains with bland villains. A villain can be pure evil but still have charisma and motivations that make sense. For example: Emperor Palpatine is absolutely a pure evil villain with no redeeming features, but he is fun to watch in the original trilogy and the prequels because he loves being evil and carries himself with such confidence. He's basically the inverse of Yoda, a seemingly fragile old man who is, in reality, extremely powerful and totally devoted to seizing power at any cost.
Prophecy and anti hero were handled very well in the riryia chronicles books. Royce is basically the full spectrum antihero to hero, and the prophecy is a good underlying plot point that you don't even realize is important until almost done with the series
I think the biggest reason I listen to y’all is because it feels like I’m just shooting the shit with friends about books I love, but both of y’all also bring a very critical perspective. It’s a pretty unique perspective on YT Delete TH-cam!
Some thoughts at about the halfway point of the video: Fellowship: Usually a nice standard fantasy trope. Sometimes though I think characters can benefit from being forced to do things on their own. POV's Coming together: Characters need to spend enough time apart. Sometimes authors bring everybody together to early. Quest: Another fantasy classic. Has the potential however to be EXTREMELY boring sometimes. Last Stand: I agree with Richard here. Sometimes just let the characters lose or die, and show us the consequences. We don't always need the Deux Ex Machina. We can see it coming. Sympathetic Villain: Whatever happened to just having complex villains? A villain can be complex (not just pure evil) without being sympathetic! Redemption: Can be done SO HORRIBLY. Looking at you Ben Solo. Anti-Hero: Has such a fuzzy definition and everybody has a different one. Really tough to do well for me. Mentor: Love this trope. My only issue is way too often the mentor dies, or is very easily/quickly passed in ability by the pupil. Let the mentor stay relevant for a while! Talking Animals: Realm of the elderlings has the best talking animal companion of all time!
I love hearing what other people like and dislike about books, especially books I've read. I like long form content because it keeps me away from doom scrolling on the shorts. I love your banner with each other.
Im a reader/writer and I think you guys have good commentary, while being funny! Definitely helps me decompress (especially with the insane writers block i have right now). Keep up the good work!
For enemies to lovers, I offer the video game Tales of Symphonia. Not top tier fantasy by any means, but it has a special place in my heart. If you go with the option of romancing the assassin, Sheena, it's a great example of the trope.
Narnia has talking animals but several series use animals in a way that uses the anatomy of animals to make the characters. Guardians of Gahoole, Redwall, Secret of Nyhm, Watership down, etc!
I'm new to book-tube and modern fantasy, but I want to write a quasi-fantasy series, and your tier lists are always informative entertainment, if more surface-level than I'd like.
I found your channel two days ago and the time I spend on TH-cam has increased exponentially, so yeah, you are part of the problem. I really enjoy your content! Also, God-level thread in C? Just for Sanderson it deserves an A...
Discovered your channel through a collab you did with Library of a Viking. I'm loving your interaction. 'You don't have fantasy without magic'. Are you sure guys? Gormenghast? Watership Down? Swordspoint? Other tropes I'd: like to see your opinion on: - House with many doors - Magic mirror (of any kind. there are tons) - Banter
The only instance I can think of where I think “It’s all a dream” is done well, is (Spoilers) the Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening. And that’s because it’s not JUST a dream, it’s the dream of a powerful entity and everyone in the dream actually exists because the dream is like a pocket dimension. The antagonists of the story are literally the monsters that figured out the truth and are doing everything they can to keep the Wind Fish from being woken up, because when it wakes up, the dream ends and so they end. But Link is also dreaming and he can’t wake up until the Wind Fish does. In this one game, Link could be considered the villain.
Honestly yall are the only booktubers whose videos i watch fully ever since i found you guys recently. i watch some other people too but generally just skip around but theres something very cozy about you guys. you two remind me of my best friend and me our friendship is sooo much like you guys so thats another reason. hope you guys keep on going like this. also delete youtube :D
Hey I'm kinda late but I just want to say I love what you guys do :) Really enjoy the banter, the book discussions, and the variety of content (this video included)
DELETE TH-cam! In all seriousness though, I love this podcast so much. Your guys’ banter is immaculate and on multiple occasions had me in tears. And if you aren’t convinced enough, you’re the reason I got into Terry Pratchett! What more could I say? Keep up the good work, you guys are genuinely amazing.
I didn’t know tropes could make me angry by mentioning them but as soon as you brought up “I can’t tell you yet” I felt flickers of rage… So I learned something new about myself.😂 The entire time you guys are talking I’m carrying on a whole convo with you in my head. How else could I pass the time at work?? ALONE?? [delete YT]
😂. Love it thanks for watching. And oh my - this comment actually reminded me of something!! I can’t believe it reminded me of this - but oh nvm. I can’t tell you yet.
@@2ToRamble ohh don’t tell me… it’s for my own good//the plot isn’t ready to move there yet//you don’t want to hurt my feelings by revealing some minuscule betrayal we’ll spend 2 books being upset over?😌💔
Fringe has a great multiverse trope - but only deals with two universes, so again very focused on the stakes for the specific "versions" of characters you have grown to adore. Brilliant acting doesn't hurt. (I also personally love how they handled time travel).
Not the Homeward Bound slander 😅 In comparison to more modern "the animals talk" movies, I greatly prefer it because they didn't make the animal mouths move like humans in time with speaking, it was more like a telepathic thing of their body language and natural sounds. I will also add to the list of good Talking Animals tropes, Watership Down.
I think the Last Stand trope usually and probably always have a Deus Ex Machina event happen but when they don't it's gold. Like in Warhammer 40k the Last Stand is met with a great sacrifice to save the day.
Yeah if it’s like not a full battle but just a group or maybe one person who are committed to completing a goal when they know they are gonna die and actually die it’s amazing
Theres a really good duel in the second knights of brettonia warhammer book and you get to see a grail knight do battle after being built up over the previous two books
One hour and 15 minutes in, and I'm still listening. You guys are a terrific distraction from the writing I'm supposed to be doing, haha. OK, that's actually true, but the reason why I'm listening to you two and not someone else is because I find your viewpoints and reactions refreshingly straightforward and non-cynical and generally unjaded. That's kinda rare these days. I often agree with you, even if I did give up on WoT after Book Eight, the Book That Went Nowhere.
Have not watched it yet, but I am beating you missed the "Magic is merely forgotten Technology" trope, and its stablemate "The Gods are merely Technicians".
I think the sympathic villain usually is just a narrative layer added to a villain just for lore and backstory. I think it's done well as a means to add to the tragedy of certain lives and to understand why that villain is evil. It's necessary to understand why they do the things they do and usually evil people have lived horrible lives. There's also the key difference between bad guys and genuinely evil people. A genuinely evil person is a born sociopath and narcissist that just seem to be born straight out of the dark ether of the universe while someone like Shigi from My Hero Academia was shaped by his environment and influences, that's where the sympathy comes from and it's because he was a good kid that got delt the worst cards ever. Evil takes many forms and it's important to see it. It's important to sympathize with characters like that because we need to recognize behavior like that in order to be able to prevent it.
Enemies to lovers....”wait not friends to lovers your not calling us friends” LMFAO had me rolling 😂😂 y'all funny as heck! Ahhhh this channel like I said last time is one of my favs haha! Y'all personalities are great remind me of like old friends...TO LOVERS HAHA ah man loving it!!
Here's some great utopian stories: The Dispossessed, Childhood's End, The Culture series, and Star Trek. A utopian society isn't a perfect world with perfect people and guaranteed perfect outcomes for everyone. It's just a society organized around it's highest principles (for example, true freedom and equality rather than just lip service). You can still have differences of opinion, conflicting goals, anger, and disappointment.
1:32:40 The best Utopian story by far is The Culture series. It's similar to the "post-scarcity" of Star Trek, which is already great, but with all other social ills solved, so its also an interesting political novel. The conflict takes place on the fringes of the Utopia and how they use their resources to subvert authoritarian governments, so its surprisingly actiony for how sublime the civilization is..
The MacGuffin is very important to the characters but is ultimately of little or no importance to the audience. It's a Hitchcock term, but I think the perfect examples are Rosebud in Citizen Kane and the brief case in Pulp Fiction. In Citizen Kane, a reporter sets out to unlock the secret of Charles Foster Kane's mysterious dying word, "Rosebud." In Pulp Fiction, at least one character in all the intersecting stories comes into contact with a brief case containing something amazing. By the end of both movies, the audience isn't even paying attention to these things any more and I'm sure many people even forgot that was what we were trying to find out.
Watched till the end, definitely delete TH-cam. Black Crouch's dark matter might be the best multiverse I've seen. Also, i would have added the trope of "Ally-Antagonist"
I would've liked to see one of the tropes be "color (or some adjective)-based societies/factions". I want to see you discuss it because it's an immediate "throw the book out the window" trope for me. It nearly causes me physical pain I dislike it so much.
@@2ToRamble It is a little bit, but more because I'd like to be convinced to read it and I have a hard time getting around the cheesiness feeling of that trope. I'm beating a dead horse, but Divergent is a Rings of Power-level example of this. On second thought, maybe Harry Potter's houses are a neutral-positive example. I think because they don't hold too strictly where the members aren't too 1-dimensional and always bring up the group's "adjective".
delete youtube!!! man... right now I am doing my skin care routine I am listening to the episodes all day while doing things that I don't need to pay attention (house chores, cooking, eating, etc.) i-it's not an addiction, I CAN STOP WHEN I WANT TO (help) (why is this channel so good) Edit: what I like about this channel is that you are 2 charismatic guys talking about things that are interesting to me, and you have your own different opinions that sometimes I agree and sometimes not. Your content feels genuine. (Also, I don't have friends to talk about Red Rising, so I started watching the videos about the saga, but now my fiance is reading the first book and I'll have someone to actually talk to irl about it)
I think there is one category of Sympathetic Villain that can be done well and that's the Corrupted Mind. By that I mean, they were a good person but something happened that Broke them or corrupted their will. I'm thinking like Artorias from Darksouls, or the Nowhere King from Centaur World. They weren't bad people, but something happend so now their mind is shattered and can only cause destruction. Even better if it was a Hero who willingly sacrificed themselves to save others and became a broken minded villain as a result.
I laughed how you high-fived each other and raised your voice in joy over the Sympathetic Villain trope. And I completely agree with you guys! I don't give a flying whatever of the villains reasons and no backstory will change my mind. They should get their comeuppance. Are you trying to turn us away from your channel by promoting 'delete TH-cam' 😂 This discussion was absolutely hilarious. And partly true... 😶
“Delete youtube” 😂 In all seriousness, I listened to the whole thing simply because it was a somewhat entertaining way to learn the labels for quite a few tropes and to get some new examples of several of them!
The Ring in LOTR is definitely not a MacGuffin. It is its own entity, to some extent, exerting its malign influence on the world and the characters. A classic MacGuffin is an object that could be anything, just as long as the characters have a reason to covet it. That's its only function in the plot. (Example: The Maltese Falcon). That story would still have worked if some other valuable object had been substituted for the Falcon. Whereas there could be no substitute for the Ring.
I agree with their discussion on the multiverse trope, however i do think this trope can be well written and add to the story without overpowering the plot (ex. Into the Spiderverse and Invincible)
As a German myself I want to remind you guys, that Hitler was Austrian Also to the question of "Why? Why am I watching this?" It's a funny story. The guy I keep captive in my basement asked the same thing every time I made him watch your videos.. in the end he just bit off his tongue in hopes to escape the unending terror, that is you to rambling on for hours upon hours ... Fortunately I was able to save his life, but torturing him without his screams and pleads for mercy just isn't the same.. Also, I have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to our children stories. Yours are just to vanilla
The best time travel story I've encountered is the anime steins gate. Absolutely amazing show. I highly recommened. It is the reason I loved time travel despite it being used so poorly in the majority of stories
Time travel can be awful but if time travel is the only thing going on like steins gate and primer among what you guys said it can work and be excellent
There is a TH-cam video by "Despot of Antrim" where he argues that Galadriel in Rings of Power is purposely written as a serial killer. I would love to hear what your reactions are to that!!
Honestly Harry Potter is one of the best examples of how to handle good time travel because it has limits very clear. Just that people who read it literraly don't understand it. The time travel in Harry Potter can't change the time line, it just causes the thing we already saw.
You were curious why someone would watch this (great stamp of approval on your own content btw haha). I'm wanting to start writing more and watched this as a guide from two avid readers on what to avoid, why to avoid it and if you are going to do it here are some examples of where its worked and where it hasn’t. Might be a fun idea to do more videos like this breaking down tropes or types of characters you like or don’t and give examples of good and bad versions of these characters. Oh, one trope you didn’t have which I’d be curious to know your thoughts on is the liar revealed.
Question on Insta Love from an out of the loop Gen X’er; is “Insta Love” the same as “Love at first sight” or it more just lust/attraction than actual love? Glad you guys explained McGuffin as I wouldn’t have had a clue! My problem with Farm Boy is that is now usually the “Blacksmith’s son/apprentice” or the “Stable hand”. Luke Skywalker will forever be my favourite farm boy. And Mara Jade will forever tease him with the moniker.
Yea you’re spot on - Insta-love is just like Love at First Sight (at least how we were thinking about it). And great point on the farm boy switch up - the trope seems to still exist but with that tiny change like a Blacksmith, etc instead of a farm boy!
Honestly i like DC's comic multiverse, as they usually use it as a tool to let new writers tell different stories about our favorite heroes seperate from the main comic for said heroes. Notable examples are the Earth 1 superman and batman stories that take a look at bruce and clark's very first years as heroes with fresh direction. Or red sun superman where hes russian and a communist. I feel like this approach works because the multiverse's mostly stay seperate.
Delete TH-cam. Also, I’m just now discovering this channel, and I absolutely love it! Makes me laugh, makes me think, and helps me further accept my own inner geekiness.
What about Dark with Time Travel? That’s an S tier execution Also, Interstellar has a semi-annoying plot hole with their presentation of Time. When discussing going to the planet near the black hole, they correctly understand that “1 hour there = 9 years to us”, but then fail to apply that logic to their decision to visit the planet in the same discussion.
Interstellar is a must watch. It has one of the most immersive soundtracks of all time. IMO it is up there with LOTR and Trent Reznor's Fincher soundtracks!!!
![กี่หมื่นฟ้า | Your Sky Series EP.1 [2/4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qJbQs_nhjD4/mqdefault.jpg)
That delete TH-cam tangent was a ride 😂
I think Aang is a great example of not killing enemies. But yeah, it can be irritating in other things at times.
Thank you! I was thinking the exact same thing
I absolutely LOVE the way you accept NO changes to 10/10 LOTR
Also, as a writer, it's nice to hear what a portion of your potential audience feels about tropes.
literally making a list of tropes i want to use while watching
Best booktube chanel there is!! having someone who's experienced and a newer reader is just perfect keep it up guy!!
Thank you!
The fact that this video started with Austin yelling “Give me some pure evil!!!” cracked me up. 😂😂😂😂
Just commenting to help the algorithm as I think you lads are just swell.
The evolution of this channel has been great to see. From Richard telling Austin why he should read certain books, to now a full on discussion on fantasy tropes. But beyond it all, I love how you've keep the silliness and tomfollery. You guys remind me of my friend group. You're rambles are excellent. Keep up the great work lads!
Delete TH-cam ;)
Thank you for the kindness! We hope you keep watching us while also deleting TH-cam!
“Dune” has a good prophecy. Only book I can think of where you see the inception of the prophecy itself as well
I only loved the propehecy thing in mistborn era 1.
I have to say povs coming together is for sure an s tier in my opinion it’s always amazing
"Delete TH-cam".....Damn you guys called me out on my TH-cam addiction 😂 I was listening to this entire podcast while working (software dev) but I didn't know I was going to get roasted like that in the middle 🤣 I like to listen to TH-cam videos while I'm working lol I guess they why I got so far into the podcast. Plus you guys are hilarious 👍
Also, I am doing a Wheel of Time first read and I am currently reading "The Shadow Rising" and I am HYPED I am going to get your guy's take and reaction to each book. Super excited for those wheel of time review videos.
Hell yeah - thanks for watching and the WOT journey will be awesome 🤌
I’m so glad you mentioned the poor time travel in endgame. It literally irked me so much and I’m glad I’m not the only one.
Got to the end. Enjoyed the podcast and your twos banter. Worth the watch!
"Self insert" characters can be good, a lot of people view Tyrion as GRRM's self-insert but he has many very obvious flaws and is a beloved character. I think that's the thing about tropes, some might be worse than others, in the sense that they are generally used in bad ways but any trope has the potential to be good.
Always just seen your TikTok clips and finally decided to watch some of the full podcasts and they are so entertaining. Keep it up boys
Thanks for hopping over - appreciate it!!
You guys rock. Love the podcast, love the shorts. Love it all. The two of you rekindled my love for fantasy reading and my brother and I started a mini book club to read your recommendations. Thank you for being you. And the fact that your egos are healthy enough to realize that nobody should be listening is a plus. There are no podcasts that NEED to be heard..it gets me thinking about books and that's what I like.
What a kind comment - thank you for the pick-me up! Wow. You starting a book club and getting back into reading fantasy with your bro is about the best thing I could possibly hear short of Richard quitting the pod. Heres to wishful thinking 😭. But seriously big thanks for taking the time to watch and leave this kickass comment
Richard just made my heart swoon with that mention of Daredevil season 3. I never see it talked about and had to rewind to make sure I heard it right 😂 Such a perfect season of TV, Austin my guy you MUST get to it at some point
🫡
Tickle me’chimbers
Nice one lads. I think what I like about your stuff is it feels like your in the room. As someone whose finished writing an epic fantasy and in the process of querying agents - but without many people in my life to nerd out with. Your channel scratches that itch
Thanks for this - appreciate ya and best of luck on landing an agent!
1:35:00 Sorry, but I'm with Austin here. The Hobbits are not Farmboys. Frodo, Merry and Pippin are the Offspring of upper class Hobbits and haven't worked a day in their lifes.
They have small horizons and like their homeland, but they aren't hard working and also not really modest in their lifestyle as a typical farmboy. They spend their time reading, drinking, chilling, doing mischief and dreaming of running away to find Elves.
Oh and delete TH-cam
I wish I could subscribe twice lol. These guys are great!
Ahhhh! Thank you!
"Delete TH-cam" is a good merch print idea XD
I am here for the rambling. No filter rambling is what I like 😂
Also, would love to know where you would place the 'crazy/wise hermit/fool' trope
That bald guy has really good knowledge on variety of books, novels to manga. I love this channel!!
Yes! Bring back pure evil villains! I think a lot of people confuse pure evil villains with bland villains. A villain can be pure evil but still have charisma and motivations that make sense. For example: Emperor Palpatine is absolutely a pure evil villain with no redeeming features, but he is fun to watch in the original trilogy and the prequels because he loves being evil and carries himself with such confidence. He's basically the inverse of Yoda, a seemingly fragile old man who is, in reality, extremely powerful and totally devoted to seizing power at any cost.
Definitely! Not to mention Homelander, Hannibal Lector, Anton from No country for old men, etc etc. So good
Nice one on getting the sponsorship
Thankya!
Prophecy and anti hero were handled very well in the riryia chronicles books. Royce is basically the full spectrum antihero to hero, and the prophecy is a good underlying plot point that you don't even realize is important until almost done with the series
I have never been more emotionally invested in a game of rock paper scissors shoot.. 😢
Which trope were you rooting for 🤠
You forgot the resurrection/fake death trope! I therefore demand part 2 before we all collectively delete TH-cam 😂😂
Part 2: Ranking 50 MORE fantasy tropes
@@2ToRamble Now that's what I call a last stand 😂
The 15:24 zoom in on the hand was pretty funny. Great job again fellas
👊
I think the biggest reason I listen to y’all is because it feels like I’m just shooting the shit with friends about books I love, but both of y’all also bring a very critical perspective. It’s a pretty unique perspective on YT
Delete TH-cam!
Appreciate this!!
Some thoughts at about the halfway point of the video:
Fellowship: Usually a nice standard fantasy trope. Sometimes though I think characters can benefit from being forced to do things on their own.
POV's Coming together: Characters need to spend enough time apart. Sometimes authors bring everybody together to early.
Quest: Another fantasy classic. Has the potential however to be EXTREMELY boring sometimes.
Last Stand: I agree with Richard here. Sometimes just let the characters lose or die, and show us the consequences. We don't always need the Deux Ex Machina. We can see it coming.
Sympathetic Villain: Whatever happened to just having complex villains? A villain can be complex (not just pure evil) without being sympathetic!
Redemption: Can be done SO HORRIBLY. Looking at you Ben Solo.
Anti-Hero: Has such a fuzzy definition and everybody has a different one. Really tough to do well for me.
Mentor: Love this trope. My only issue is way too often the mentor dies, or is very easily/quickly passed in ability by the pupil. Let the mentor stay relevant for a while!
Talking Animals: Realm of the elderlings has the best talking animal companion of all time!
I love hearing what other people like and dislike about books, especially books I've read. I like long form content because it keeps me away from doom scrolling on the shorts. I love your banner with each other.
Thanks a bunch!
The delete youtube segment is your funniest bit yet 😂
The absolute best ‘Last Stand’ is in Battle of the Bastards …Jon Snow was ready to fight an entire army by himself !!
with the exact deus ex machina he described undercutting it heavily!
Im a reader/writer and I think you guys have good commentary, while being funny! Definitely helps me decompress (especially with the insane writers block i have right now). Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much!
For enemies to lovers, I offer the video game Tales of Symphonia. Not top tier fantasy by any means, but it has a special place in my heart. If you go with the option of romancing the assassin, Sheena, it's a great example of the trope.
Narnia has talking animals but several series use animals in a way that uses the anatomy of animals to make the characters. Guardians of Gahoole, Redwall, Secret of Nyhm, Watership down, etc!
I hate the "I can't tell you" trope because it always, ALWAYS ends up being the reason why something bad happens lmao!
The last airbender does an amazing "doesn't kill bad guys"
I'm new to book-tube and modern fantasy, but I want to write a quasi-fantasy series, and your tier lists are always informative entertainment, if more surface-level than I'd like.
Great breakdown lads
I found your channel two days ago and the time I spend on TH-cam has increased exponentially, so yeah, you are part of the problem. I really enjoy your content! Also, God-level thread in C? Just for Sanderson it deserves an A...
Thanks for watching 😁 and good argument - Sanderson does raise everything lol
Discovered your channel through a collab you did with Library of a Viking. I'm loving your interaction.
'You don't have fantasy without magic'. Are you sure guys? Gormenghast? Watership Down? Swordspoint?
Other tropes I'd: like to see your opinion on:
- House with many doors
- Magic mirror (of any kind. there are tons)
- Banter
Glad you found us! Haven’t read those books you mentioned but that’s awesome, and great recs
The only instance I can think of where I think “It’s all a dream” is done well, is
(Spoilers)
the Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening. And that’s because it’s not JUST a dream, it’s the dream of a powerful entity and everyone in the dream actually exists because the dream is like a pocket dimension.
The antagonists of the story are literally the monsters that figured out the truth and are doing everything they can to keep the Wind Fish from being woken up, because when it wakes up, the dream ends and so they end.
But Link is also dreaming and he can’t wake up until the Wind Fish does. In this one game, Link could be considered the villain.
Honestly yall are the only booktubers whose videos i watch fully ever since i found you guys recently. i watch some other people too but generally just skip around but theres something very cozy about you guys. you two remind me of my best friend and me our friendship is sooo much like you guys so thats another reason. hope you guys keep on going like this.
also delete youtube :D
Thanks VERY much 🙏😁
Long video? Heck yeah!
Flicker flicker is like the replacement for black outs
Exception to "It was all a dream." The Sandman comics. Where dreams are taken seriously, and characters are aware that they are dreaming.
Malazan Book of the Fallen is a perfect example of a story taking place in the middle of a civilization at the height of its power
I forgot to mention that while this is true, there are also numerous lost civilizations throughout the series, lol
I write books. So hearing people talk thru tropes is not a waste of time but classified as work research.
Best of both 🤝
Hey I'm kinda late but I just want to say I love what you guys do :) Really enjoy the banter, the book discussions, and the variety of content (this video included)
Appreciate that a bunch! Thank you!
DELETE TH-cam!
In all seriousness though, I love this podcast so much. Your guys’ banter is immaculate and on multiple occasions had me in tears. And if you aren’t convinced enough, you’re the reason I got into Terry Pratchett! What more could I say? Keep up the good work, you guys are genuinely amazing.
Getting you into terry p is the highest honor we can have!!
I didn’t know tropes could make me angry by mentioning them but as soon as you brought up “I can’t tell you yet” I felt flickers of rage… So I learned something new about myself.😂
The entire time you guys are talking I’m carrying on a whole convo with you in my head. How else could I pass the time at work?? ALONE??
[delete YT]
😂. Love it thanks for watching. And oh my - this comment actually reminded me of something!! I can’t believe it reminded me of this - but oh nvm. I can’t tell you yet.
@@2ToRamble ohh don’t tell me… it’s for my own good//the plot isn’t ready to move there yet//you don’t want to hurt my feelings by revealing some minuscule betrayal we’ll spend 2 books being upset over?😌💔
1:38:53 I love it when friends become lovers
Fringe has a great multiverse trope - but only deals with two universes, so again very focused on the stakes for the specific "versions" of characters you have grown to adore. Brilliant acting doesn't hurt. (I also personally love how they handled time travel).
Just reading this comment reminded me of Dark, three worlds, three timelines and phenomenal acting
@@vegpedro7632 That one has been recommended to me!
Not the Homeward Bound slander 😅 In comparison to more modern "the animals talk" movies, I greatly prefer it because they didn't make the animal mouths move like humans in time with speaking, it was more like a telepathic thing of their body language and natural sounds.
I will also add to the list of good Talking Animals tropes, Watership Down.
Bold choice to have love triangle and mary sue in S tier, and everything else in F.
1:05:30 You need to rewatch LOST because that is not what happened.
For Time Travel see Perry Rhodan, it is a frequent theme there.
God level threat below enemies to lovers hurt me 😩
Richie is so me "I hate this shit but Wheel of Time did it perfectly so put it top of A"
Amnesia joke was gold
As an aspiring author your insight is valuable!
Thanks for watching!
I think the Last Stand trope usually and probably always have a Deus Ex Machina event happen but when they don't it's gold. Like in Warhammer 40k the Last Stand is met with a great sacrifice to save the day.
Yeah if it’s like not a full battle but just a group or maybe one person who are committed to completing a goal when they know they are gonna die and actually die it’s amazing
Theres a really good duel in the second knights of brettonia warhammer book and you get to see a grail knight do battle after being built up over the previous two books
One hour and 15 minutes in, and I'm still listening. You guys are a terrific distraction from the writing I'm supposed to be doing, haha. OK, that's actually true, but the reason why I'm listening to you two and not someone else is because I find your viewpoints and reactions refreshingly straightforward and non-cynical and generally unjaded. That's kinda rare these days. I often agree with you, even if I did give up on WoT after Book Eight, the Book That Went Nowhere.
Have not watched it yet, but I am beating you missed the "Magic is merely forgotten Technology" trope, and its stablemate "The Gods are merely Technicians".
I made it that far into the video, because this video is actually helping me analyze stories that I love.
Love it - thanks for watching. But remember to delete TH-cam! And keep watching. Paradox? I think not.
Love the inclusion of a "rings of power" tier lol.
Do you guys have an episode where you guys discuss it?
We have one way back in episode #27 where we discuss the first 2 episodes - and then episode #30 where we compare Rings of Power to the Silmarillion 🤠
"Rings or Power" occupies it's own dimension of terrible writing which transcends F status. The Ramblers are geniuses. LOL
I think the sympathic villain usually is just a narrative layer added to a villain just for lore and backstory. I think it's done well as a means to add to the tragedy of certain lives and to understand why that villain is evil. It's necessary to understand why they do the things they do and usually evil people have lived horrible lives. There's also the key difference between bad guys and genuinely evil people. A genuinely evil person is a born sociopath and narcissist that just seem to be born straight out of the dark ether of the universe while someone like Shigi from My Hero Academia was shaped by his environment and influences, that's where the sympathy comes from and it's because he was a good kid that got delt the worst cards ever. Evil takes many forms and it's important to see it. It's important to sympathize with characters like that because we need to recognize behavior like that in order to be able to prevent it.
Enemies to lovers....”wait not friends to lovers your not calling us friends” LMFAO had me rolling 😂😂 y'all funny as heck! Ahhhh this channel like I said last time is one of my favs haha! Y'all personalities are great remind me of like old friends...TO LOVERS HAHA ah man loving it!!
Amnesia!!!the gaslighting 🤣 lmao
Oh my gosh! Delete TH-cam! Calling everyone out legit eating while watching this hahaha
Thank you 😂😂
Here's some great utopian stories: The Dispossessed, Childhood's End, The Culture series, and Star Trek. A utopian society isn't a perfect world with perfect people and guaranteed perfect outcomes for everyone. It's just a society organized around it's highest principles (for example, true freedom and equality rather than just lip service). You can still have differences of opinion, conflicting goals, anger, and disappointment.
1:32:40 The best Utopian story by far is The Culture series. It's similar to the "post-scarcity" of Star Trek, which is already great, but with all other social ills solved, so its also an interesting political novel.
The conflict takes place on the fringes of the Utopia and how they use their resources to subvert authoritarian governments, so its surprisingly actiony for how sublime the civilization is..
Oo interesting, havent heads of this but sounds very cool, great pitch
HellPvP hahaha epic stuff right here, love Pokémon and you!
Not a Pokémon in thumbnail just a dragon Whoops
Froshie!!! You’re the man
I am pretty sure the TH-cam algorithm has „unlocked“ you guys and your channel is about to grow significantly
😁
The MacGuffin is very important to the characters but is ultimately of little or no importance to the audience. It's a Hitchcock term, but I think the perfect examples are Rosebud in Citizen Kane and the brief case in Pulp Fiction. In Citizen Kane, a reporter sets out to unlock the secret of Charles Foster Kane's mysterious dying word, "Rosebud." In Pulp Fiction, at least one character in all the intersecting stories comes into contact with a brief case containing something amazing. By the end of both movies, the audience isn't even paying attention to these things any more and I'm sure many people even forgot that was what we were trying to find out.
Great point!
Watched till the end, definitely delete TH-cam.
Black Crouch's dark matter might be the best multiverse I've seen.
Also, i would have added the trope of "Ally-Antagonist"
Ahhh. Good catch we didn’t do that trope. And I (Austin) never heard of Black Crouch - will have to look into it 👀
I would've liked to see one of the tropes be "color (or some adjective)-based societies/factions". I want to see you discuss it because it's an immediate "throw the book out the window" trope for me. It nearly causes me physical pain I dislike it so much.
Is this a dig on Red Rising 😂. I think I know what you mean - is there a bad example that comes to mind for you?
@@2ToRamble It is a little bit, but more because I'd like to be convinced to read it and I have a hard time getting around the cheesiness feeling of that trope. I'm beating a dead horse, but Divergent is a Rings of Power-level example of this.
On second thought, maybe Harry Potter's houses are a neutral-positive example. I think because they don't hold too strictly where the members aren't too 1-dimensional and always bring up the group's "adjective".
delete youtube!!!
man... right now I am doing my skin care routine
I am listening to the episodes all day while doing things that I don't need to pay attention (house chores, cooking, eating, etc.)
i-it's not an addiction, I CAN STOP WHEN I WANT TO (help)
(why is this channel so good)
Edit: what I like about this channel is that you are 2 charismatic guys talking about things that are interesting to me, and you have your own different opinions that sometimes I agree and sometimes not. Your content feels genuine. (Also, I don't have friends to talk about Red Rising, so I started watching the videos about the saga, but now my fiance is reading the first book and I'll have someone to actually talk to irl about it)
So freaking kind, thank you and your skin care routine for giving the time to listen to us 😁😁
Only on the first part, and I too want more pure blood evil villains
YES
I think there is one category of Sympathetic Villain that can be done well and that's the Corrupted Mind. By that I mean, they were a good person but something happened that Broke them or corrupted their will. I'm thinking like Artorias from Darksouls, or the Nowhere King from Centaur World. They weren't bad people, but something happend so now their mind is shattered and can only cause destruction. Even better if it was a Hero who willingly sacrificed themselves to save others and became a broken minded villain as a result.
I laughed how you high-fived each other and raised your voice in joy over the Sympathetic Villain trope. And I completely agree with you guys! I don't give a flying whatever of the villains reasons and no backstory will change my mind. They should get their comeuppance.
Are you trying to turn us away from your channel by promoting 'delete TH-cam' 😂 This discussion was absolutely hilarious. And partly true... 😶
Thanks a bunch!
“Delete youtube” 😂
In all seriousness, I listened to the whole thing simply because it was a somewhat entertaining way to learn the labels for quite a few tropes and to get some new examples of several of them!
The Ring in LOTR is definitely not a MacGuffin. It is its own entity, to some extent, exerting its malign influence on the world and the characters. A classic MacGuffin is an object that could be anything, just as long as the characters have a reason to covet it. That's its only function in the plot. (Example: The Maltese Falcon). That story would still have worked if some other valuable object had been substituted for the Falcon. Whereas there could be no substitute for the Ring.
Made it to the end!
I agree with their discussion on the multiverse trope, however i do think this trope can be well written and add to the story without overpowering the plot (ex. Into the Spiderverse and Invincible)
Lots of gods, and their events in Malazan. Done well.
As a German myself I want to remind you guys, that Hitler was Austrian
Also to the question of "Why? Why am I watching this?"
It's a funny story. The guy I keep captive in my basement asked the same thing every time I made him watch your videos.. in the end he just bit off his tongue in hopes to escape the unending terror, that is you to rambling on for hours upon hours ... Fortunately I was able to save his life, but torturing him without his screams and pleads for mercy just isn't the same..
Also, I have no idea what you guys are talking about when it comes to our children stories. Yours are just to vanilla
😂😂😂
The best time travel story I've encountered is the anime steins gate. Absolutely amazing show. I highly recommened. It is the reason I loved time travel despite it being used so poorly in the majority of stories
Time travel can be awful but if time travel is the only thing going on like steins gate and primer among what you guys said it can work and be excellent
There is a TH-cam video by "Despot of Antrim" where he argues that Galadriel in Rings of Power is purposely written as a serial killer. I would love to hear what your reactions are to that!!
Sounds like a great video 😂
The most sympathetic Villain has to be Handsome Jack from Borderlands and he is great 41:55
Honestly Harry Potter is one of the best examples of how to handle good time travel because it has limits very clear.
Just that people who read it literraly don't understand it.
The time travel in Harry Potter can't change the time line, it just causes the thing we already saw.
I’m pretty sure Lord of the Rings is where the “farm boy” trope comes from.
You were curious why someone would watch this (great stamp of approval on your own content btw haha). I'm wanting to start writing more and watched this as a guide from two avid readers on what to avoid, why to avoid it and if you are going to do it here are some examples of where its worked and where it hasn’t.
Might be a fun idea to do more videos like this breaking down tropes or types of characters you like or don’t and give examples of good and bad versions of these characters. Oh, one trope you didn’t have which I’d be curious to know your thoughts on is the liar revealed.
Thanks for the feedback - we will implement this in the future!
Question on Insta Love from an out of the loop Gen X’er; is “Insta Love” the same as “Love at first sight” or it more just lust/attraction than actual love?
Glad you guys explained McGuffin as I wouldn’t have had a clue!
My problem with Farm Boy is that is now usually the “Blacksmith’s son/apprentice” or the “Stable hand”. Luke Skywalker will forever be my favourite farm boy. And Mara Jade will forever tease him with the moniker.
Yea you’re spot on - Insta-love is just like Love at First Sight (at least how we were thinking about it). And great point on the farm boy switch up - the trope seems to still exist but with that tiny change like a Blacksmith, etc instead of a farm boy!
Honestly i like DC's comic multiverse, as they usually use it as a tool to let new writers tell different stories about our favorite heroes seperate from the main comic for said heroes. Notable examples are the Earth 1 superman and batman stories that take a look at bruce and clark's very first years as heroes with fresh direction. Or red sun superman where hes russian and a communist. I feel like this approach works because the multiverse's mostly stay seperate.
Main character dies: John Conner killed off 30 seconds into the latest Terminator movie, comes to my mind of how its done poorly.
Havent seen the latest Terminator movie but I totally believe you. Heard it was awful !
Delete TH-cam. Also, I’m just now discovering this channel, and I absolutely love it! Makes me laugh, makes me think, and helps me further accept my own inner geekiness.
Ahh thank you! Glad you found us and are enjoying 🙏
What about Dark with Time Travel? That’s an S tier execution
Also, Interstellar has a semi-annoying plot hole with their presentation of Time. When discussing going to the planet near the black hole, they correctly understand that “1 hour there = 9 years to us”, but then fail to apply that logic to their decision to visit the planet in the same discussion.
Interstellar is a must watch. It has one of the most immersive soundtracks of all time. IMO it is up there with LOTR and Trent Reznor's Fincher soundtracks!!!
Hans Zimmer is something else. What a soundtrack
I love how he hasn't seen interstellar bur then got on you for not seeing Homwatd Bound xD