Or update them for more modern audiences! How are 9 year old's supposed to relate to them if they are constantly talking about adult fiction. We need more captain underpants or diary of a wimpy kid!
@@Andrew.DowningI need more reviews of Dora the explorer.. I've only seen all episodes and can quote every line religiously after sitting everyday in front of mom's iPad. I just had to bicker and cry a bit to get my fix I just don't know what to think about the show as I'm not able to form any coherent opinions without two hosts talking about women's basketball and telling me what to think and believe Until then I'll be re watching the same episodes for the 278th time
Interesting take here. I think I agree. Also, gatekeeping has pretty much removed the word fan from my vocabulary. I now say I'm enjoying things instead. That wasn't a conscious decision, and I think I need to ponder it a bit.
My most visceral reaction recently to something I saw as gatekeeping was a video explaining that sci fi focused on on the hard or natural sciences and technology (so, for example, Ringworld or The Martian) was "science fiction" whereas sci fi focused on the social sciences and meaning (for example, The Left Hand of Darkness or Fahrenheit 451) was "speculative fiction." Suddenly, after 40 years of reading, someone decided I was no longer a sci fi fan!
Another interesting flavor of gatekeeping - deciding what is a valid reason to like something. For example, someone who says they love Brandon Sanderson for his prose - cue shock and horror from 'good prose' gatekeepers
@@synchronuDS I agree. But I can also see that he won’t be considered one of the all-time greats because his prose will feel dated in a bad way 50 years from now, which is a real shame.
@@CScott-wh5yk That's fair - kinda what happened with a lot of old time sci-fi / fantasy, but honestly i don't take that as a negative for those authors - their readers really enjoyed them i.e. the prose fit their time, they played a significant role in the evolution of the genre, and moved on when their time was over
The problem is some franchises cast such a wide net that it is hard to agree what the fundamentals are. When it comes to Star Wars, I personally think a (relatively) light-hearted tone, a sense of swashbuckling whimsy, the Force, and moral dualism are all important parts of the franchise. When it goes dark, it does so in an operatic way, not in a realistic way. But there are many vocal fans that seem to want Star Wars to be gritty, military science fiction with less Force users and grey morality.
I think Star Wars can have a bit of both of these. Which is what many other franchises should do. Branch out get some variety in your own content it brings more fans and breaks the monotony.
I think you can do both. Both can exist within the Star Wars universe. However, I would advocate for building within the boundaries of the universe. If you want something more gritty, military with less Force users and grey morality, you can have content focused around that (clone commando/clone army for the clone wars, trooper/imperial military old republic, rebel military vs empire for that era. However, in my opinion, this content should be new, new faces, new characters with references or cameos from existing stuff, but not changing the existing stuff. If there is indeed enough people interested in that, the thing will be a success. Just coming and changing the existing lore to fit that, is just like trying to fit a cube through a circular hole, one of those things is gonna break.
Personally I think Andor is the single best thing in the Star Wars franchise and it ditches pretty much all the tropes and is just a good show made for adults. I wish more of the franchise was like that
They’ve definitely done this with the old new ghostbusters movie, but this brand new one with Bill Murray and some actors from Stranger Things has a lot of the original spirit. See? Just keep things as they are and keep the love behind it and said thing will flourish. ❤
All Amazon had to do was cover this list to a T - All 16 rings were meant to go to the elves ( which lead to 300-500years of his infiltration & deception down the drain.) but Mairon of the Maiar(primordial angelic beings in simple terms as they are sort of beyond angels) disguised as a high elf named Annatar when he came to the elves pretending to be an emissary from Valinor on behalf of the Valar so it makes sense how alluring the ring is and how strong it’s pull on people is. (A bit too instant in the movies though) Galadriel soon saw right through him and especially when after speaking with him regarding not remembering him when in Valinor long ago where she learned from all the Valar thanks to being dominantly Vanyar/Teleri side over her Noldorin side where she gleaned from that encounter that she did not study under Aulë the Vala with any elf named Annatar ! But later named Sauron by the elves meaning deceiver! After all of this, The three elven rings were made in secret without Saurons touch upon them thanks to Kelebrimbor! Remember Gandalf before he became Gandalf was the same species of entity Sauron used to be!! Wow hey? The Rings in this case, would have lost their powers eventually due to the lack of the One Ring and possibly because they were designed to defeat evil, & evil in the form of Sauron had been defeated twice already in the past. The Three Elven Rings served their purpose for a long time. Two out of three of them had several different bearers Unlike the other Rings, the main purpose of the Three is to "heal and preserve", as when Galadriel used Nenya to preserve her realm of Lothlórien over long periods. The Elves made the Three Rings to try to halt the passage of time, or as Tolkien had Elrond say, "to preserve all things unstained". I can expand upon this based on any further statements & questions you have for me as a reply to this comment ! ❤ There is problem here with the Rings, the Three were supposed to be never touched by Sauron and that's why they were not corrupting…Sauron had not taken part in their making which made the Three more 'pure' unsullied by his dark power, unlike the Nine and Seven Rings! But Sauron in the show touched the very material they were made of!!! So technically he could have tainted them and corrupted! Even appendices of Lot tell us the order of making the rings, so they didn't even need the righs to more detailed writings in UT or Silmarillion: 1200 Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans begin to make permanent havens. c. 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power. c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion. c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Kelebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron. 1693 War of the Elves & Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden." 'Did you not hear me, Gloin?' said Elrond. 'The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One." ❤❤❤ The 3 Elven Rings are not susceptible to “The One Ring” in any direct way.. They’re only tied by fate to lose their power if Sauron is defeated completely & absolutely. As they were made by the elves and as always they make things for a purpose and pour their literal spirit into things they create. So if Sauron is defeated then the three rings power will fade and basically become almost useless or diminished versions of their original design since by this era magic has bled from the world by a huge degree thanks to Morgoth’s poisoning the world itself with his very essence that he poured into it. Called The Long Defeat By The Elves and The Men Of The West.
You always have to bring in new fans, because the old ones will, eventually, have an expiration date. Sad but true. But, as the old song says: Make new friends, but keep the old. One is silver, the other is gold.
I'm about halfway through book 4 in The Wheel of Time and can confidently say I'm a fan of what I've read so far. My love for the series grows practically daily as I go along in my journey of reading it for the first time. I'm already thinking about where to get my first WoT tattoo once I finish the series lmao.
There’s a difference between being a “fan” of something and being just an “enjoyer” of that thing. It’s these enjoyers calling themselves fans and seeking to change canon to their own personal liking that are killing great fantasy IP.
Something important to understand is that you can't satisfy everyone. Even the old fans, there is going to be some of them that are going to hate the new just because it is new, even if it is great. But the most important thing is that you should try to keep the people who were here first. A good example is One Piece live action. Most of the fans liked it because it was good, it has its problems but really honor the original material and Oda was very invested in the production. And the Live Action does it very well keeping the original fans and also bringing new people but the story is still what it is. Also for me is important to understand that Live Action is a complement for the franchise, the story is still what it is and it doesn't disappear just because something new came out. I think the same with Star Wars. The Disney Trilogy is horrible, but I still have the previous movies, those didn't disappear.
Interesting convo 🎉 39:12 it's not super hardcore romance focused but Becky Chambers has a lil bit of it sprinkled in the first Wayfarers book (the long way to a small angry planet).
You ended on a really interesting topic. Is the bigger issue when a fandom gets hijacked? To my way of thinking, "fandom" is a cultural activity, but corporations have recognized that the basic model of a fandom (lore, shared jargon, symbols, etc.) is also a really good approach to marketing. I think a lot of the recent genre media (including Rings of Power) is an attempt at synthetic fandom.
I see gatekeeping as elitism but you guys have very good points. Like I can't stand people freaking out about "red rising isnt believeable and grounded enough so its bad and not good sci fi"
I think that gatekeeping is kinda misunderstood by most people who are trying to speak about it. Yeah, often times it is expressed in a rude way, but to write it off as just "ego" is to ignore an underlying motivation of gatekeepers. When people say "you're not a real fan, no one cares what you have to say", they usually mean that the person who they are talking to does not have sufficent knowledge of the the discorse around the piece of media or the piece of media itself to bring anything new or interesting to the table. This is not as obvious with simple pop-culture pieces of media, as there is not much to know. To see what I mean, lets look at something, that wears its complexity on its sleeve - Ulysses by James Joyce. A notoriously difficult novel, that is full of references and allusions to history, literatrue and many many things, while also having a rather confusing narrative. So, if you read the book once, didn't understand half of it, have no idea about what the author was trying to do or who he was, and are trying to insert yourself into some online conversation about the novel - you'd probably get hit with gatekeeping. And I'm not gonna lie - it would be pretty justified. Not the rudness, but the sentiment that you should have at least read The Odessey (Ulysses is a retelling of that poem) before trying to participate in a discussion with other fans. Because if you are not up to speed with at least the most popular knowldege about the story, the disussion between you and that gatekeeper will turn into them educating you on a billion things you could have learned on your own. From their perspective, you are a person who is trying to talk about cars with a bunch of engineers without knowing who Ford is or what does the engine do. They are simply trying to keep the conversation productive, and you are a hindrance to that productive conversation. Rarely do gatekeeper just hate people for being "outsiders" or whatever, they hate them because outsiders are very uninformed and are on a much lower level of discussion - they are bringing the discourse back to the thing the more dedicated part of the fandom has long moved on from. I bet that if you know MORE that that "gatekeeper", and your ideas about the story are more complex and interesting than theirs, they will have no issue with you being a part of the discussion, because that way you are not hampering it - you are making it better! I'm not saying this is the right way to keep the discussion from going in circles, or that gatekeeping is unambiguously good, but I think it is wrong to strawman people who are doing the gatekeeping, because if we are adressing not their actuall reasons for gatekeeping, but a much weaker and easier to attack reason, then we are not actually changing minds of those gatekeepers, we are just pleasuring our egos by condeming "obviously bad behaviour". This is a much more complex issue than people think, in my opinion. Anyways, great discussion guys!
Stephen King's Dark Tower movie, is my example. It felt like such a cash grab, that I wondered what was the point of making it? I can only assume the filmmakers never read the books, or if they did, wasn't so much a fan as they simply saw it as a marketing opportunity. Thankfully Mike Flanagan, a huge King Fan, is re-adapting for a series
I will tread lightly, but I have seen major efforts among two particular major fandoms to rescue their beloved works from the authors themselves. I think that is the worst end of a fandom without enough reasonable gatekeeping.
I can learn so much about a new fandom I get into in one afternoon and its never been a problem where I was excluded however I am a fan of comics and with that I fell into the trap of gatekeeping a little bit not with people but with tv show or movies writing them off be ause of changes but I dont think its right to do that only as it applies to comics because the story line get rebooted so many times and have so many different authors and artists. The only thing Ill say is that movies can get the essence of a character wrong and it can make the movie not fun anymore. As an example the Man of steel movie was a lot darker than a typical superman movie but the characters still felt like themeselves so it was enjoyable but the Batman v Superman movie was tonally off but more than that it didnt feel like the batman we know and love. Which would again be fine if that was part of the story of how he changed because that has happened in the comics but it felt like they dropped us into a mercenary version of Batman with no cod and none of his regular charm and they just wanted us to accept it no question. With something like Lord of the Rings or The sword of Truth series there is one version of the books so its more acceptable to be more picky with how it gets translated into other media forms
In the defense of batman v superman, batman was changed. This was post Robin's death, and post superman's collateral damage. The movie isn't great, but enough was given to show us this was a beaten down, Batman, defeated by the years of failed justice.
Art is entirely subjective so you can't say someone isn't a 'real fan' of something. Maybe they're not a 'real fan' of your interpretation of that thing perhaps. Even if the author says an interpretation is wrong, I don't think even think they are the ultimative source. Harlan Ellison is an example
I’m starting to feel like I’m not going to watch any adaptation or reboot. I have the old stuff already and nothing they try to do is going to live up to my expectations. As far as gatekeeping goes: it’s wrong no matter what. If a corporation wants to pay millions to make their vision of anything well, we should let them and if we don’t like it then we don’t like it. If we don’t put up the cash then we have no say. Leave them alone to have whatever success or failure they deserve. I’m done watching them but whatever.
So as somebody who likes LoTR as a book series a lot(but thinks the movies are actually better and that at this point the books are overrated), am I a bad fan for thinking Rings of Power was actually fine?
I (Austin) think the toughest part of the whole gatekeeping topic is how arbitrary it is of what makes you a ‘real fan’. Rich used a great analogy of a fandom being an organism. Rings of Power fans might be a ‘different organism’ than fans of the original movies or book groups. You probably fit into both the ‘old fan’ and ‘new fan’ camp. Or - the organism of LOTR fandom is shifting and those who are ‘fans’ of the books are discussing whether or not Rings of Power deserves its place in the fandom identity. Basically it’s arbitrary and ambiguous and there’s no clear answer - BUT because Richard and I are the bastions of LOTR we declare you a NONFAN FOR CALLING THE BOOKS OVERRATED YOU MONSTER. Ahem. Thank you for being a patron of our channel Lkay 😂. Hope I somewhat answered this question.
There's so much that could be done even keeping all the characters that would make them a cohesive 3 movie's. I've seen a few ideas here on TH-cam one I really liked made them an inverse of both the OT and the PT and it definitely sounded like something that would have been SO easy to be done.
I think when they start race swapping and sex swapping is when it starts becoming toxic. I get the want for diversity and wanting to feel included but these stories were written by people who probably had a better grasp on whomever they can voice the most at the time. Most of the time they're pandering to a lot of "fake" fans aka content creators, most cosplayers, and parasites who only use these mediums to get money from normies. I often just don't care because there's no stopping it but it's not going to stop people who can see what's going on plain as day. I always tell people there's new stuff coming out that do have inclusion, diversity and whatever so there's no reason to swap anything from older stuff because there's probably double the amouny of it in new media now.
Alot of instances of gender or ethnicity swapping is entirely people crying about what they remember things being in their memories being changed. But I don't see anyone questioning whether or not the original creator of said properties would have thought or do think about it and whether or not it was actually integral to the point of the original story. I whole heartedly hate that people are doing it with REAL historical figures that infuriates me. But something that was ALWAYS fictional is entirely up to what the intital and original intentions were of the person who originally made whatever story is being reimagined. Like when Annie was switched to being a black girl why was there no real backlash then? Oh because it actually had logical sense to it and didn't detract from the story and the message of it.
The Witcher. The show was so egregious that season 3 could’ve been a perfect adaptation (it was better than season 2 but still shit overall) but I just stopped caring. Not even gonna look at season 4. Or the anime with Doug Cockle who voiced Geralt in the games.
Man I I know this isn’t the point of the video, but I hate what happened with the 13th doctor. I really thought she had potential to be really good, but the way they changed the stories just killed it for me.
One good way of gate keep. You are not a fan if you have just see Lore videos and haven't experienced the actual story. I have seen Harry Potter fans that just watched the movies and watched Lore videos and I mean, yes they are fans of the movies, but if they haven't experienced the original story, they didn't know it. So for me you can't really have a good opinion that I can take about the all story or the franchise if you didn't experience the story. Because lore videos didn't translate in reading the books, it is not the same. They are losing something fundamental of the story that is experiencing it. This also translate to the Lord of the rings fans. Yes I saw tons of lore videos to complement my reading of the books but I actually read them. I took the Silmarillion, read it, didn't understand a thing for most of the Books and do the homework to have my own opinion. And honestly what I have to say about it is better than the things that some people have to say about the story that have only watched the movies. That doesn't mean that new people could not have good opinions, of course they can, but also is very common for them to say things that really don't make any sense because they really don't know the story.
when you adapt something and its different, the question is why not just make your own thing? like you can tell the WoT writers hated the books, they changed literally everything they could. why not just make your own generic fantasy show? because it wont sell. same thing with the witcher. same thing with the gunslinger.
Tbh this is exactly how I feel about all the manga fans invading epic fantasy circles. I get it, you’re right, it IS epic fantasy, BUT it’s a different kind of epic fantasy. Ever since they invaded, booktubers have been chasing their clicks instead of reviewing books, so I’ve run out of books to read because the people I used to rely on to review books spend the majority of their time reading and reviewing manga :(
I agree, it's a different medium. Plus, they are ignoring all the Western comics that are also epic/urban fantasy except possibly Sandman and Saga. I've never seen a Booktuber mention Birthright once for example, and it is a pretty direct repurposing of epic/portal fantasy tropes.
I think going off of your ego point. Especially with music. It hurts your pride a little bit in being associated with someone who isn't a fan. And this is where a lot of people need to check themselves and it happens to me as well. When someone asks if you have heard this insanely popular song that you've been listening to for years, it feels insulting that they seem to be lumping you in with the standard population who are not fans. Which they don't mean to and that's why you kind of need to check your own ego before you say something elitist. You can't help but feel like they are attacking you for not being a fan even if you are. Elitist comments come when you are trying to prove that you are a fan.
It has to be star wars that got ruined for me. I have read a good portion of the old expanded universe and DIsney comes in and makes a lot of my favourite stories non cannon. But I stuck with them through that, there was a lot of bad in there and a fresh start wasn't guaranteed to be bad. Hell I didn't even give up hope after the 3 movies as bad as they were. But with a new mediocre show every year... I just don't care anymore.
Great title ; though gate keeping = rip bozo mindset . . withholding people to do things or enjoy a series of whatever medium is good. . Like just cause I can't recall each food Description in WoT doesn't mean I'm less of a fan . . would say theirs no sense of Gate Keeping. . Also an adaptation , can change tbh keeping it one for one isn't always fun or better via the Shining wouldn't be better due to it being verbatim to King's prose. . [ Enjoyed the Video but yep- just had to drop my 2 cents as a Baby Fantasy writer
Richard: yep I agree with you. Lack of knowledge should not bar someone from enjoying something. It is hard to nail down, but I think it is far more important when it comes to companies buying an IP vs individuals on the internet.
I think this has damn near been universally agreed upon even by newer fan's. But I can bet within say 15 years maybe longer they'll be seen with a little more fondness(half from people who haven't watched them in those 15 or so years).
One thing I will say about Rings of Power is that I actually thought the things people complained about for months on the internet (Black Elves and Dwarves, Dwarf female not having a beard, all the "woke" stuff) didn't actually make the show worse. What made it not great was just sub-par writing at times. I think its interesting to see WHY so many people didn't like it.
Those things did make it worse, but the writting could have fixed that. I have no problem with black dwarves or elves, but it needs to fit the lore. Make those characters from a part of the world where more melanin makes sense.
I'm a big fan of 2ToRamble, but I think the show would be better if the two hosts were replaced and they only talked about women's basketball.
Or update them for more modern audiences! How are 9 year old's supposed to relate to them if they are constantly talking about adult fiction. We need more captain underpants or diary of a wimpy kid!
@@Andrew.Downing YES
@@Andrew.DowningI need more reviews of Dora the explorer.. I've only seen all episodes and can quote every line religiously after sitting everyday in front of mom's iPad. I just had to bicker and cry a bit to get my fix
I just don't know what to think about the show as I'm not able to form any coherent opinions without two hosts talking about women's basketball and telling me what to think and believe
Until then I'll be re watching the same episodes for the 278th time
These corporate adaptations feel like a kind of reverse gate keeping where they want to actively exclude the OG fans.
Ooooh, austin here. I like this take!
Interesting take here. I think I agree.
Also, gatekeeping has pretty much removed the word fan from my vocabulary. I now say I'm enjoying things instead. That wasn't a conscious decision, and I think I need to ponder it a bit.
“We could use the hate views”😂 i love it!
First full video i’m watching and i’m lovin you guys and your dynamic, consider this a tickle to your algo
My most visceral reaction recently to something I saw as gatekeeping was a video explaining that sci fi focused on on the hard or natural sciences and technology (so, for example, Ringworld or The Martian) was "science fiction" whereas sci fi focused on the social sciences and meaning (for example, The Left Hand of Darkness or Fahrenheit 451) was "speculative fiction." Suddenly, after 40 years of reading, someone decided I was no longer a sci fi fan!
Very interesting. There are certainly different types of sci fi. I wouldn't say one is more sci fi than another.
Another interesting flavor of gatekeeping - deciding what is a valid reason to like something. For example, someone who says they love Brandon Sanderson for his prose - cue shock and horror from 'good prose' gatekeepers
It’s okay to like him for his prose, but that means you like bad prose 🤣
@@CScott-wh5yk Point proven 😎😆I happen to think his prose is great at what it sets out to do 😁
The “his plot and pacing are mid, but the prose is lit” Sanderson fan should be a Giga Chad meme.
@@synchronuDS I agree. But I can also see that he won’t be considered one of the all-time greats because his prose will feel dated in a bad way 50 years from now, which is a real shame.
@@CScott-wh5yk That's fair - kinda what happened with a lot of old time sci-fi / fantasy, but honestly i don't take that as a negative for those authors - their readers really enjoyed them i.e. the prose fit their time, they played a significant role in the evolution of the genre, and moved on when their time was over
i listen to 2toramble when i'm working from home or sketching, makes either activity more fun
The problem is some franchises cast such a wide net that it is hard to agree what the fundamentals are. When it comes to Star Wars, I personally think a (relatively) light-hearted tone, a sense of swashbuckling whimsy, the Force, and moral dualism are all important parts of the franchise. When it goes dark, it does so in an operatic way, not in a realistic way. But there are many vocal fans that seem to want Star Wars to be gritty, military science fiction with less Force users and grey morality.
We call those people marines lol.
I think Star Wars can have a bit of both of these.
Which is what many other franchises should do. Branch out get some variety in your own content it brings more fans and breaks the monotony.
I think you can do both. Both can exist within the Star Wars universe. However, I would advocate for building within the boundaries of the universe. If you want something more gritty, military with less Force users and grey morality, you can have content focused around that (clone commando/clone army for the clone wars, trooper/imperial military old republic, rebel military vs empire for that era. However, in my opinion, this content should be new, new faces, new characters with references or cameos from existing stuff, but not changing the existing stuff. If there is indeed enough people interested in that, the thing will be a success. Just coming and changing the existing lore to fit that, is just like trying to fit a cube through a circular hole, one of those things is gonna break.
Personally I think Andor is the single best thing in the Star Wars franchise and it ditches pretty much all the tropes and is just a good show made for adults. I wish more of the franchise was like that
They’ve definitely done this with the old new ghostbusters movie, but this brand new one with Bill Murray and some actors from Stranger Things has a lot of the original spirit. See? Just keep things as they are and keep the love behind it and said thing will flourish. ❤
All Amazon had to do was cover this list to a T - All 16 rings were meant to go to the elves ( which lead to 300-500years of his infiltration & deception down the drain.) but Mairon of the Maiar(primordial angelic beings in simple terms as they are sort of beyond angels) disguised as a high elf named Annatar when he came to the elves pretending to be an emissary from Valinor on behalf of the Valar so it makes sense how alluring the ring is and how strong it’s pull on people is. (A bit too instant in the movies though) Galadriel soon saw right through him and especially when after speaking with him regarding not remembering him when in Valinor long ago where she learned from all the Valar thanks to being dominantly Vanyar/Teleri side over her Noldorin side where she gleaned from that encounter that she did not study under Aulë the Vala with any elf named Annatar ! But later named Sauron by the elves meaning deceiver! After all of this, The three elven rings were made in secret without Saurons touch upon them thanks to Kelebrimbor! Remember Gandalf before he became Gandalf was the same species of entity Sauron used to be!! Wow hey?
The Rings in this case, would have lost their powers eventually due to the lack of the One Ring and possibly because they were designed to defeat evil, & evil in the form of Sauron had been defeated twice already in the past.
The Three Elven Rings served their purpose for a long time. Two out of three of them had several different bearers Unlike the other Rings, the main purpose of the Three is to "heal and preserve", as when Galadriel used Nenya to preserve her realm of Lothlórien over long periods. The Elves made the Three Rings to try to halt the passage of time, or as Tolkien had Elrond say, "to preserve all things unstained". I can expand upon this based on any further statements & questions you have for me as a reply to this comment ! ❤
There is problem here with the Rings, the Three were supposed to be never touched by Sauron and that's why they were not corrupting…Sauron had not taken part in their making which made the Three more 'pure' unsullied by his dark power, unlike the Nine and Seven Rings! But Sauron in the show touched the very material they were made of!!! So technically he could have tainted them and corrupted!
Even appendices of Lot tell us the order of making the rings, so they didn't even need the righs to more detailed writings in UT or Silmarillion:
1200
Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans begin to make permanent havens.
c. 1500
The Elven-smiths instructed by
Sauron reach the height of their skill.
They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590
The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600
Sauron forges the One Ring in
Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Kelebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
1693
War of the Elves & Sauron begins.
The Three Rings are hidden."
'Did you not hear me, Gloin?' said Elrond. 'The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them.
But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.
These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One."
❤❤❤
The 3 Elven Rings are not susceptible to “The One Ring” in any direct way.. They’re only tied by fate to lose their power if Sauron is defeated completely & absolutely. As they were made by the elves and as always they make things for a purpose and pour their literal spirit into things they create. So if Sauron is defeated then the three rings power will fade and basically become almost useless or diminished versions of their original design since by this era magic has bled from the world by a huge degree thanks to Morgoth’s poisoning the world itself with his very essence that he poured into it. Called The Long Defeat By The Elves and The Men Of The West.
We need more of this 🎉
You always have to bring in new fans, because the old ones will, eventually, have an expiration date. Sad but true. But, as the old song says: Make new friends, but keep the old. One is silver, the other is gold.
I'm about halfway through book 4 in The Wheel of Time and can confidently say I'm a fan of what I've read so far. My love for the series grows practically daily as I go along in my journey of reading it for the first time.
I'm already thinking about where to get my first WoT tattoo once I finish the series lmao.
you guys are amazing, your my favourite youtubers. and you have inspired me to read more tolkien.
You honor us! Thanks for watching our stuff - glad you’re reading more Tolkien!
There’s a difference between being a “fan” of something and being just an “enjoyer” of that thing. It’s these enjoyers calling themselves fans and seeking to change canon to their own personal liking that are killing great fantasy IP.
Oo interesting distinction
you have literally no proof to believe that but if it fits your narrative go for it.
2:23 The Final Frontier, The Book Pf Souls, Senjutsu)))
Something important to understand is that you can't satisfy everyone.
Even the old fans, there is going to be some of them that are going to hate the new just because it is new, even if it is great.
But the most important thing is that you should try to keep the people who were here first.
A good example is One Piece live action.
Most of the fans liked it because it was good, it has its problems but really honor the original material and Oda was very invested in the production.
And the Live Action does it very well keeping the original fans and also bringing new people but the story is still what it is.
Also for me is important to understand that Live Action is a complement for the franchise, the story is still what it is and it doesn't disappear just because something new came out.
I think the same with Star Wars. The Disney Trilogy is horrible, but I still have the previous movies, those didn't disappear.
Which exact video was that Daniel Greene one?
Interesting convo 🎉
39:12 it's not super hardcore romance focused but Becky Chambers has a lil bit of it sprinkled in the first Wayfarers book (the long way to a small angry planet).
Great stuff boys!
You ended on a really interesting topic. Is the bigger issue when a fandom gets hijacked? To my way of thinking, "fandom" is a cultural activity, but corporations have recognized that the basic model of a fandom (lore, shared jargon, symbols, etc.) is also a really good approach to marketing. I think a lot of the recent genre media (including Rings of Power) is an attempt at synthetic fandom.
I see gatekeeping as elitism but you guys have very good points.
Like I can't stand people freaking out about "red rising isnt believeable and grounded enough so its bad and not good sci fi"
Gate keeping is okay. In fact, those that complain about gate keeping are actually engaging in another form of gate keeping 🤓
paradox of intolerance
I'm Justin hello you're talking to me when you said Justin 😂
Y’all are fun 😂
I think that gatekeeping is kinda misunderstood by most people who are trying to speak about it. Yeah, often times it is expressed in a rude way, but to write it off as just "ego" is to ignore an underlying motivation of gatekeepers. When people say "you're not a real fan, no one cares what you have to say", they usually mean that the person who they are talking to does not have sufficent knowledge of the the discorse around the piece of media or the piece of media itself to bring anything new or interesting to the table.
This is not as obvious with simple pop-culture pieces of media, as there is not much to know. To see what I mean, lets look at something, that wears its complexity on its sleeve - Ulysses by James Joyce. A notoriously difficult novel, that is full of references and allusions to history, literatrue and many many things, while also having a rather confusing narrative.
So, if you read the book once, didn't understand half of it, have no idea about what the author was trying to do or who he was, and are trying to insert yourself into some online conversation about the novel - you'd probably get hit with gatekeeping. And I'm not gonna lie - it would be pretty justified. Not the rudness, but the sentiment that you should have at least read The Odessey (Ulysses is a retelling of that poem) before trying to participate in a discussion with other fans. Because if you are not up to speed with at least the most popular knowldege about the story, the disussion between you and that gatekeeper will turn into them educating you on a billion things you could have learned on your own. From their perspective, you are a person who is trying to talk about cars with a bunch of engineers without knowing who Ford is or what does the engine do. They are simply trying to keep the conversation productive, and you are a hindrance to that productive conversation. Rarely do gatekeeper just hate people for being "outsiders" or whatever, they hate them because outsiders are very uninformed and are on a much lower level of discussion - they are bringing the discourse back to the thing the more dedicated part of the fandom has long moved on from. I bet that if you know MORE that that "gatekeeper", and your ideas about the story are more complex and interesting than theirs, they will have no issue with you being a part of the discussion, because that way you are not hampering it - you are making it better!
I'm not saying this is the right way to keep the discussion from going in circles, or that gatekeeping is unambiguously good, but I think it is wrong to strawman people who are doing the gatekeeping, because if we are adressing not their actuall reasons for gatekeeping, but a much weaker and easier to attack reason, then we are not actually changing minds of those gatekeepers, we are just pleasuring our egos by condeming "obviously bad behaviour".
This is a much more complex issue than people think, in my opinion.
Anyways, great discussion guys!
Stephen King's Dark Tower movie, is my example. It felt like such a cash grab, that I wondered what was the point of making it? I can only assume the filmmakers never read the books, or if they did, wasn't so much a fan as they simply saw it as a marketing opportunity.
Thankfully Mike Flanagan, a huge King Fan, is re-adapting for a series
I (Austin) didn’t even know there was an adapted film wow
I love your show guys, and I don't necessarily disagree with what you are expressing, but I also think you changed the definition of gatekeeping...
Hey! Dont gatekeep our definition of gatekeeping 😂
@@2ToRamble 😂
If I have not seen all the old videos from this channel, am I not a fan?
Incorrect.
Because I've already seen all the videos.
I will tread lightly, but I have seen major efforts among two particular major fandoms to rescue their beloved works from the authors themselves. I think that is the worst end of a fandom without enough reasonable gatekeeping.
M Night Shamalan picking up Avatar the last Airbender is a clear example of someone who actually liked the show should have controlled the man
I can learn so much about a new fandom I get into in one afternoon and its never been a problem where I was excluded however I am a fan of comics and with that I fell into the trap of gatekeeping a little bit not with people but with tv show or movies writing them off be ause of changes but I dont think its right to do that only as it applies to comics because the story line get rebooted so many times and have so many different authors and artists. The only thing Ill say is that movies can get the essence of a character wrong and it can make the movie not fun anymore. As an example the Man of steel movie was a lot darker than a typical superman movie but the characters still felt like themeselves so it was enjoyable but the Batman v Superman movie was tonally off but more than that it didnt feel like the batman we know and love. Which would again be fine if that was part of the story of how he changed because that has happened in the comics but it felt like they dropped us into a mercenary version of Batman with no cod and none of his regular charm and they just wanted us to accept it no question. With something like Lord of the Rings or The sword of Truth series there is one version of the books so its more acceptable to be more picky with how it gets translated into other media forms
In the defense of batman v superman, batman was changed. This was post Robin's death, and post superman's collateral damage. The movie isn't great, but enough was given to show us this was a beaten down, Batman, defeated by the years of failed justice.
Art is entirely subjective so you can't say someone isn't a 'real fan' of something. Maybe they're not a 'real fan' of your interpretation of that thing perhaps. Even if the author says an interpretation is wrong, I don't think even think they are the ultimative source. Harlan Ellison is an example
I’m starting to feel like I’m not going to watch any adaptation or reboot. I have the old stuff already and nothing they try to do is going to live up to my expectations. As far as gatekeeping goes: it’s wrong no matter what. If a corporation wants to pay millions to make their vision of anything well, we should let them and if we don’t like it then we don’t like it. If we don’t put up the cash then we have no say. Leave them alone to have whatever success or failure they deserve. I’m done watching them but whatever.
So as somebody who likes LoTR as a book series a lot(but thinks the movies are actually better and that at this point the books are overrated), am I a bad fan for thinking Rings of Power was actually fine?
I (Austin) think the toughest part of the whole gatekeeping topic is how arbitrary it is of what makes you a ‘real fan’. Rich used a great analogy of a fandom being an organism. Rings of Power fans might be a ‘different organism’ than fans of the original movies or book groups. You probably fit into both the ‘old fan’ and ‘new fan’ camp. Or - the organism of LOTR fandom is shifting and those who are ‘fans’ of the books are discussing whether or not Rings of Power deserves its place in the fandom identity. Basically it’s arbitrary and ambiguous and there’s no clear answer - BUT because Richard and I are the bastions of LOTR we declare you a NONFAN FOR CALLING THE BOOKS OVERRATED YOU MONSTER. Ahem. Thank you for being a patron of our channel Lkay 😂. Hope I somewhat answered this question.
I agree wholeheartedly. That being said, i want to fundamentally change the star wars sequel triology.
There's so much that could be done even keeping all the characters that would make them a cohesive 3 movie's.
I've seen a few ideas here on TH-cam one I really liked made them an inverse of both the OT and the PT and it definitely sounded like something that would have been SO easy to be done.
I think when they start race swapping and sex swapping is when it starts becoming toxic. I get the want for diversity and wanting to feel included but these stories were written by people who probably had a better grasp on whomever they can voice the most at the time. Most of the time they're pandering to a lot of "fake" fans aka content creators, most cosplayers, and parasites who only use these mediums to get money from normies. I often just don't care because there's no stopping it but it's not going to stop people who can see what's going on plain as day. I always tell people there's new stuff coming out that do have inclusion, diversity and whatever so there's no reason to swap anything from older stuff because there's probably double the amouny of it in new media now.
I feel like alot of this is debatable
Alot of instances of gender or ethnicity swapping is entirely people crying about what they remember things being in their memories being changed. But I don't see anyone questioning whether or not the original creator of said properties would have thought or do think about it and whether or not it was actually integral to the point of the original story.
I whole heartedly hate that people are doing it with REAL historical figures that infuriates me.
But something that was ALWAYS fictional is entirely up to what the intital and original intentions were of the person who originally made whatever story is being reimagined.
Like when Annie was switched to being a black girl why was there no real backlash then? Oh because it actually had logical sense to it and didn't detract from the story and the message of it.
The Witcher.
The show was so egregious that season 3 could’ve been a perfect adaptation (it was better than season 2 but still shit overall) but I just stopped caring. Not even gonna look at season 4. Or the anime with Doug Cockle who voiced Geralt in the games.
Rich and I stopped at different points (me after S1, Rich after S2) - thats rough!
@@2ToRamble it's just sad you know? the entire show is an insult to my culture
Man I I know this isn’t the point of the video, but I hate what happened with the 13th doctor. I really thought she had potential to be really good, but the way they changed the stories just killed it for me.
One good way of gate keep.
You are not a fan if you have just see Lore videos and haven't experienced the actual story.
I have seen Harry Potter fans that just watched the movies and watched Lore videos and I mean, yes they are fans of the movies, but if they haven't experienced the original story, they didn't know it.
So for me you can't really have a good opinion that I can take about the all story or the franchise if you didn't experience the story.
Because lore videos didn't translate in reading the books, it is not the same.
They are losing something fundamental of the story that is experiencing it.
This also translate to the Lord of the rings fans.
Yes I saw tons of lore videos to complement my reading of the books but I actually read them. I took the Silmarillion, read it, didn't understand a thing for most of the Books and do the homework to have my own opinion.
And honestly what I have to say about it is better than the things that some people have to say about the story that have only watched the movies.
That doesn't mean that new people could not have good opinions, of course they can, but also is very common for them to say things that really don't make any sense because they really don't know the story.
Anyone ever noticed the guy on the right sounds sooo much like Elijah Wood??? Only listening I feel like I hear Frodo talking!
Dont you dare boost my ego like that
Whaat no one ever told you that? XD
No 😂
when you adapt something and its different, the question is why not just make your own thing? like you can tell the WoT writers hated the books, they changed literally everything they could. why not just make your own generic fantasy show? because it wont sell. same thing with the witcher. same thing with the gunslinger.
you just dont like black people being added, that much is obvious.
Tbh this is exactly how I feel about all the manga fans invading epic fantasy circles. I get it, you’re right, it IS epic fantasy, BUT it’s a different kind of epic fantasy. Ever since they invaded, booktubers have been chasing their clicks instead of reviewing books, so I’ve run out of books to read because the people I used to rely on to review books spend the majority of their time reading and reviewing manga :(
I agree, it's a different medium. Plus, they are ignoring all the Western comics that are also epic/urban fantasy except possibly Sandman and Saga. I've never seen a Booktuber mention Birthright once for example, and it is a pretty direct repurposing of epic/portal fantasy tropes.
As someone who loves both manga and typical epic fantasy with books, I totally agree
Appreciate comments like these so we know what our viewers want us to focus on 🤝
I think going off of your ego point. Especially with music. It hurts your pride a little bit in being associated with someone who isn't a fan. And this is where a lot of people need to check themselves and it happens to me as well. When someone asks if you have heard this insanely popular song that you've been listening to for years, it feels insulting that they seem to be lumping you in with the standard population who are not fans. Which they don't mean to and that's why you kind of need to check your own ego before you say something elitist.
You can't help but feel like they are attacking you for not being a fan even if you are. Elitist comments come when you are trying to prove that you are a fan.
Oo interesting point here
It has to be star wars that got ruined for me. I have read a good portion of the old expanded universe and DIsney comes in and makes a lot of my favourite stories non cannon. But I stuck with them through that, there was a lot of bad in there and a fresh start wasn't guaranteed to be bad. Hell I didn't even give up hope after the 3 movies as bad as they were. But with a new mediocre show every year... I just don't care anymore.
Same! I still read a the old EU
Great title ; though gate keeping = rip bozo mindset . . withholding people to do things or enjoy a series of whatever medium is good. .
Like just cause I can't recall each food Description in WoT doesn't mean I'm less of a fan . . would say theirs no sense of Gate Keeping. .
Also an adaptation , can change tbh keeping it one for one isn't always fun or better via the Shining wouldn't be better due to it being verbatim to King's prose. .
[ Enjoyed the Video but yep- just had to drop my 2 cents as a Baby Fantasy writer
Richard: yep I agree with you. Lack of knowledge should not bar someone from enjoying something. It is hard to nail down, but I think it is far more important when it comes to companies buying an IP vs individuals on the internet.
W or L
I hope battletech doesnt follow the warhammer route.
whats wrong with auteur?
I (Austin) am just trying to sound smart thats all lol. It didn’t work
@@2ToRamble ahh. I was going to say I love auteur theory. Have Tarantino and coen Brothers posters behind my computer xD
Boosting for algo
❤️
The prequels are better than the sequel trilogy.
I think this has damn near been universally agreed upon even by newer fan's.
But I can bet within say 15 years maybe longer they'll be seen with a little more fondness(half from people who haven't watched them in those 15 or so years).
One thing I will say about Rings of Power is that I actually thought the things people complained about for months on the internet (Black Elves and Dwarves, Dwarf female not having a beard, all the "woke" stuff) didn't actually make the show worse. What made it not great was just sub-par writing at times. I think its interesting to see WHY so many people didn't like it.
Those things did make it worse, but the writting could have fixed that. I have no problem with black dwarves or elves, but it needs to fit the lore. Make those characters from a part of the world where more melanin makes sense.
The berserk fandom has recently become a toxic cesspool of SA jokes overly edgy BS
"Some random guy in the comments"
My name is justin
Ive never felt so seen 😂
😂