It’s amazing that Destiny went from “I don’t have time to explain why I don’t have time to explain” to multiple Grimore books, huge lore projects like Dynasty, and videos like this. I’m grateful to be apart of it
I still remember the day my Titan was resurrected outside the Cosmodrome, getting to the Tower for the first time with countless questions. And now, almost eight years later, here he is, with an almost complete understanding of the universe Light, Darkness and life itself.
Wait, are you implying that there are Titans have the ability to form questions? I always believed their thought process (if you can even call it that) was "PunChy pUncHY SHoTguN BubBLe!!!"
@@braedenbarr4047 Yeah, my Titan had the exact same experience and understanding as him...but it only has more questions and is even more confused. Haha
It’s stated that the Witness is NOT the darkness but a being that wears it like a cloak. The darkness is a neutral force in the universe. It is the witness that is using it in a malicious manner as stated by numerous characters. However he is the closest thing to the darkness and could be described as the true representative of the force just like the traveller
Here's my question, why are the darkness statues we see very obviously female? And why does the witness only vaguely resemble them? Is that another form or another entity entirely, did the witness give gaurdians the darkness powers or some other being within the darkness pantheon?
@@deadseagaming9349 the Witness, isn’t the pyramids. If the traveler is analogous to the Light and the pyramids to the Dark then that would make the Witness similar to… idk a guardian perhaps? If you look at it from the perspective of Sword Logic vs Bomb Logic, the Witness might be the single all powerful wielder of the Darkness while we are the many warriors of the Light. Just my theory of course.
@@deadseagaming9349 Probable. The witness is the voice in the darkness, Mara mentions that the voice that we heard inside the pyramids was him, so he called us to receive stasis on Europa. But i don't think the veiled figure is from the same race of the witness but a subordinated to him.
The Witness turning around at the end signifies to me that it stopped talking to the Traveler and instead was referring to us or the player character, as if it somehow knew that we see it. It felt like it was calling back to the concept of “The Player on the Other Side” And those eyes…..they never blinked…..
@@thespiral936 that may refer to us being dead and having the heart of a corpse. Or are hearts naturally pale? Idk. Makes a little more sense when the subject is Us. It almost calls back to Beyond Light with the whole theme of looking deep within to unleash a dark power. That and....well...the Nine. 3 keys to apotheosis - Judgement, Death, Perfection. I recall something along those lines from old Trials gear....
A thought on the Witness. Based entirely on the name alone, it is not the Winnower from the tale. It bore witness to them and their game. And I think the Witness is represented in that story as The First Knife.
I like this take. It's worth remembering that the witness "wears" the darkness. Best we can tell, the winnower *is* the darkness. The winnower just wants the strongest pattern to win, the Witness wants to destroy everything
"The Witness is The First Knife" is a *fascinating* idea. I don't think it's literally true, but it could very well be a useful allegory. I'd also put forwards the Sword Logic as a more direct translation of The First Knife from the Garden: This axiom that the Winnower discovers the instant the Gardener draws the two of them into the Game as not just rules, but entities.
I actually had the same thought. If you look at the history of Destiny and how it names different entities, there tends to be a pattern of literal interpretation. The traveler travels from system to system, looking for suitable species to aid, the speaker speaks to the traveller, the guardians guard the traveller, etc. I believe he is called the Witness because he was witness to a vital moment in time that had a major impact on all future events.
One cool thing about the Witness's appearance is that the part of him that is white protrudes an endless smokey effect but the part of him that is dark is stable and holds it's appearance. A lot of what we seems to show some symbolism that the Darkness may not be fully about the darkness and being this being of evil.
Hey BYF you don’t have to apologize you and the team pulled your asses off with dynasty and anyone who watches it will be impressed remember you’ve helped out a bunch of Destiny players and even other people who haven’t even started D1 or D2. I especially appreciate your dedication to this project I wish I could’ve helped out with the 3d animations because I’m getting a degree in game design. Thank you so much Byf and the team for doing this project I was ultra excited to see what you guys came up with it made my day before Witch was released and thanks again!!!🙏❤️
Yea, super project. When I playes the campagne and it told us, that the history of the hive was based on lies, my first thought was: Oh crap, Byf! He must be so pissed, because he has to correct the "core-lore" of his project. That gave my fireteam a good laugh. Hope it wasn't to bad for you. As a lore-loving Warlock-Main, great Videos and keep it up Lore-daddy.😂👍
Absolutely agree with commentor.... super greatful for all the videos you release and the help it provides with the lore and entertainment. Illl go back and watch Dynasty a few more times.... even if I just have it on in the background while playing
At some point in the campaign it was said that "The witness isn't the darkness itself but something that wears it like a cloak". Doesn't this imply that the witness is not the winnower and something else deeply related to the darkness instead?
I wouldn't be surprised that if in lightfall we beat the witness in the end then the final shape would be the ultimate force of darkness. The darknesses final form. Its "final shape".
@Sarciety yes but the witness is the child of darkness not what created it as the winnower and the gardener are those forces themselves the witness has a detailed backstory with its own species as savathun said Also they use different pronouns and the winnower denounces those who try to wipe out all life calling them nihalists which the witness would be for what it does with countless civilisations
@@LeCryx (Personal theory) The final shape is a concept pertaining to the Flower Game. It's the final form of evolution, a life form that can survive anything. The rules of the Flower Games before the one we're in, didn't have paracausality. This means that life evolved into the same being over and over and over again, the Vex. They can't comprehend Light or Dark, nor simulate it. As a civilization, they are unkillable. However, the current Flower Game has different rules. It has paracausal forces. While the Vex are the ultimate Causal species, and the previous Final Shapes, I hypothesize that the Final Shape in our Flower Game/universe will be a being that has full manipulation of paracausality. Not just of light or of darkness, but one that can channel both. The final shape will be the Guardians, after we get our other 2 darkness subclasses.
“Devotion leads to bravery, bravery leads to sacrifice, sacrifice leads to death”. What the Winnower doesn’t understand is death isn’t always because of weakness. The strong sacrifice themselves to protect those that can’t protect themselves. They don’t die because they are weak, they die because they are so strong that they are willing to give their entirety for the benefit of someone else, devotion. Those people shouldn’t be left in the ground they should be exalted. That’s what the Gardner believes.
To play Devils Advocate: Those who sacrifice themselves to save others wouldn't have to do so if the ones being saved weren't so weak as to need saving. The arguement of Value is such a multifaceted one, and I find it unbelievably fascinating. I dont agree with the Witness, but I understand its point of view.
@@redhoodie4111 well fits with how the gardener is complexity and the winnower is simplicity. A simple society would be that but a more complex social structure would require lots of different people with different skills which in the end is much more effective.
So the Gardener chooses those who had done great things in their lives (for better or worse) and allows them to become guardians. What defines those great things? Was it as simply as giving your life willingly to save another, or was it as grand as changing the lives of many people and done many things, even if those things are disastrous?
@@Strykerclass242 well the ghosts do and they look for specific attributes i believe (not too sure) so if they are looking for someone who is strong they might resurrect a strong but horrible person. Which is probably why you lose your memories when your revived
Just want to point out, Savathun saved the traveler once before, even while still having her worm. And Savathun isn’t quite dead either, so maybe she could become a true ally
I do think that we will have a unity between all forces to fight the Darkness. Like Savathun know's she was lied too now and we still have Eramis trapped in ice who was swayed by darkness, again even we were but we used the power for good but Mara Sov pointed out that she was ready to kill us if we had gone bad. It's something to think about. How many people were used by the darkness that might rebel now if it comes at us in force. We could see a Hive faction similar to the cabal, we could see the Vex decide that teaming up is the only course of action that will save them, as they have access to time and simulations. It;s all very interesting and very open right now.
If i was a guardian serving orb god i would interoperate this as him telling us that we are on the same as the hive. It’s like a “hey everyone work together to save the universe”.
@@burns0100 Seeing as they were described as a force “darker than Darkness itself” I don’t think the Vex really comprehend what the Darkness is. Or maybe they’re the Darkness’ machines 🤷🏾♂️
I love the character design. It can be interpreted so many ways, but I love how it's ever changing, endlessly adapting to its situation. And 'Wearing Darkness like a cloak' is added into it so well. The many voices aspect reflected in its movements, voice and the white smoke coming from its head in the shape of faces, is fantastic! I actually love it.
It’s simple, yet gaseous and shifting form could symbolize visually that the Witness, like the Darkness, can be anywhere or anything. It can take any form (possibly, just speculation).
The thing just looks so damn unsettling and i love it. Gives me Voldemort/Darth Vader vibes, 2 great villians. Also the way its hands move and the way its armor shimmers and moves like the darkness architecture does.
@@Jereb343 agreed. They couldn’t have done a better character design. Maybe a mask to make it more A mystery of What it’s face is. But it’s face already just reveals so much, and as many people make fun of the big eyes, honestly I see it as Just aging eyes that have seen the universe and have as such grown large to See all the traveller has done
The opinion on the Witness’ design is polarizing, it seems I for one love that it’s humanoid but not, familiar but not, understandable but not The exact way an embodiment of something so far beyond mortal concepts that we are nothing to it should be Edit: I definitely think the Witness is related to or just is who we met at the end of Shadowkeep, they put their hands together the same way and the big cloud of faces might allow them to warp their appearance/voice as needed
Concerning the appearance, I love it, thinks back on how it looks the witness seems silly, but I remember at the end of the cutscene I physically squirmed in my seat at him looking at the camera. Also another clue that it’s the same entity as shadowkeep is that he says the inhabitants of sol are crying out for salvation
@@i.currie1543 It’s also confirmed by Mara that The Witness is the entity that talked to us through our ghost in/around Pyramids and in the Black Garden
This might just be me, but the physical shape of the Witness - the thin body and the smoky mass of faces moving upwards - I noticed that the shape reminds me of the Tree of Silver Wings we saw in Season of Arrivals.
@@i.currie1543 I feel like this franchise gave us some very unusual alien races, like eliksni with 4 hands or hive with 3 eyes... For the ultimate embodiment of darkness to look like megamind kinda undermines that. It seems to lack the same level of creativity.
A thought about the Witness. Savathun says "It is not Darkness, but something that wears it like a cloak. It gives Darkness a wicked shape." As the Light and Dark are both neutral forces, I think that the Witness is not actually the Winnower, or even a personification of it, but a creature that uses the Darkness for malicious purposes. It may even be a direct mirror to the Traveler - neither are really *the* Light or Dark, but vessels to spread it. I think something a lot of people forget is that the Traveler is a sentient being, with a personality and emotions and fears. I think the Witness is the direct juxtaposition to that - another sentient being, not actually the Darkness, but a creature that uses it, or maybe even a player placed there *by* the Winnower - but not the true Darkness itself.
@@MrVidman14 I would say that, if we were to say that the Light and the Darkness are deities, the Witness is more like a prophet of sorts rather than an avatar. It is its own independent being, but is still connected to the Darkness more than any other being in the universe.
@@zerotwo6814 Honestly, I think it IS the darkness, death incarnate. That smoke affect is eerily similar to the headshot affects when we see an enemies soul leave their body. Except it's like an endless well of souls, for an unnumerable amount of deaths. Just my thought on it. Plus the "Witness" could be referring to him witnessing the birth of the universe. It's a stretch tho
"Your pale heart holds the key." I think The Witness here is referencing the power of The Light Itself. Think about it, one of The Entity's many names is The Formless One, but what do we see in the cutscene? A form representing Itself. I think The Winnower's new strategy is to use part of The Light, or a part of Its philosophies, to defeat It. That means that It will take a form and maybe even attempt to steal The Traveler's Light in order to destroy The Gardener, because It knows It can't defeat It any other way.
I love how we’re starting to see what “shapes” as a metaphysical paracausal concept, look like in practice, and it’s all starting to form a bigger picture towards the end. Like how shapes are formed by memories, almost like a predetermined outcome, almost like the flower game having a deterministic ending, a… Destiny. And “The Final Shape” expansion is probably going to the most revelating thing that we’ve been pondering since D1 when the Speaker told us about the Darkness.
I can’t wait till Byf makes a video about the “Two Lies, Two Truths” mission. I don’t know if “The Taken King will rise again” is referencing that being the legacy raid coming in the future, but I hope not. Cause it’d be insane seeing how that happens
I think that’s just a nod to that by the writers and that’s the lie, like it’s a lie in game but a nod from the writers that that is what the legacy raid will be. Since touch of malice is Oryx’s contingency so he could live forever after death. At least from what we’ve seen it doesn’t make sense that he could come back.
@@ZachPlum I think he would kill himself seeing just how powerful guardians have became, he’d be like “THEY CAN DO WHAT NOW? Yeah fuck this, next time, find a different fucking boss.” Then off himself
I'd just like to point out some symbolic meaning in the Witness' design. Its cloak flairs out at the bottom, and the pillar of smoke branches out at the top. Like two triangles meeting at his head. Like an hour glass. But the "sand" is moving up.
Byf I just wanted to say from the bottom of my heart thank you. You've brought so much to this community with your lore videos and your dynasty project. Your voice is so soothing and calming that I've been using your vids to help me sleep. Keep bringing us these vids and thank for being part of this community.
One thing I loved about the design of the witness is the way it’s form(less) reflects its voice: it’s not just one entity, but what seems to be many. It also is said to have “many names”. I find that intriguing.
The many names also explains why its called The Deep, The Winnower and the Entity. Plus the voices are crazy explains how it can change its voice to whatever like Calus heard in Pressage.
@@fishnutz5196 though I'm pretty sure The Winnower it's the darkness itself, kinda like how the Gardner is the Traveler (or most of us assume to be), which o guess makes The Witness a perfect representation of Sword vs Bomb logic, One single powerful entity vs the many Guardians with varying strengths Edit: But that's just a Theory, A LORE THEORY
There's something super important that we now know that i don't see a lot of people talking about, and that's the fact that the winnower essentially broke it's own logic by leading the three sisters into the deep to gain their darkness powers. It essentially did what the traveler does by gifting the krill with darkness powers to get back at the traveler. Even Oryx recognizes this fact that it broke it's own logic/principles as he notes in the B.O.S that his powers were given, not taken, by the worm gods. With all this in mind, it's clear to me that the Witness is more then what it seems, I wouldn't doubt it if he isn't actually the Winnower, and more like a Sauron to Morgoth.
I believe that their goal is simply to kill the Traveller, mot uphold that logic which is why I don't want them to be the Winnover, (especialls because he is decribed wearing darkness like a cloak, not darkness itself) as I think that the Winnover would not break their principle and logic, as that would admit being wrong.
@@Flamme-Sanabi Agreed. Witness appointed Witness as an entity capable of interacting with the world and gave It a mission: kill the Traveller, undo its cheats to the Flower Game. So the Witness, blindly devout, would follow the Darkness orders, but adopt a "must succeed at all costs" even breaking the Winnowers rules so It can get Closer to destroy the Traveller. Essentially the creation of the Hive, the second most important asset of the Winnower, was created by gifting the worms. Which backfired on the Hive because It contradicted the Sword logic itself.
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078and I honestly don't think that they would have had good chances with any other being, as most others as we can see, are thiving and would question such promises that were made for the Hive.
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 It could be that the Worms weren't really especially significant, at least initially and the Hive are not an important asset. The Worms were relatively powerful ancient beings that came to worship the Darkness but not much more. Instead perhaps The Witness realised that combining the Worm's offspring with the proto-hive had a unique effect, an incredibly powerful effect. The Hive feeding the Worms turned them into powerful gods but it was a side effect and given it's cannibalistic nature could only lead to ruin for the worm Gods, proven by Oryx's killing of Akka no doubt only Oryx's first step. I think perhaps the Witness had some premonition about how powerful Light imbued proto-hive would be and used the worm's unique parasitic offspring as a way to take them out of play NOT make them an asset. The Hive serving the Witness is NOT necessary, only that they do not oppose the Witness or worse be blessed by the Traveller. He only recently assumed more direct control of the last Sister, Xivu Arath, presumably because she had the best chance of stopping Savathun before she enacted her plan to grant the Traveller refuge (it is unknown afaik if Savathun knew she would become a guardian/hive guardians).
you are easily if not the best Destiny review/lore and back story youtube channel out there. i will go watch said video to support you and your team. thanks to you all for what you do.
The witness definitely lived up to its name. Creepy and mysterious with black holes for eyes. Souls pouring from him. I can only imagine that wasn't his final form.
100% going back to watch Dynasty, you guys worked sooo hard on that and it deserves to be seen. I've seen YT mess up great creators content too many times. Much love my friend
@@MrSpawley her memory told us, and you can’t lie with memories, especially if you don’t even remember them Plus Mara already has told us that the witness is evil but darkness itself is not evil
@@MrVidman14 yea like even Ikora said it herself. The darkness is neither our friend nor foe. The darkness is a 100% complete neutral force. The witness uses it to its own ends and puts an evil take on to darkness itself
Hey Byf, thank you for your dedication and hard work. I must say, I do not play Destiny anymore, but I adore its lore, and thus I watch every one of your videos. Thank you for everything you do, and for allowing me to keep up with this incredible universe.
his was one of those rare moments in gaming for me that I long stare at the screen standing still and thinking deeply about what just happened and possible repercussions about the future in the story of the game. thank you Bungie
An interesting thing to think about with the flower game, is that it can have 3 endings depending on the starting conditions -absolute nothing, since in the flower game nothing emerges out of nothing -a repeating pattern, which continously happens over and over again, basicly the final shape. -chaos. A non-repeating always changing pattern. That is what the traveler wants. And all can happen with the same game, just with different inputs.
The Witness is probably the "Final Shape" that kept emerging from the game. That's why it has the power to "take" from other realities, as Savathun put it. The Witness is the last thing to survive in each iteration of the game, thus why it says the game is over. The Witness is trying to end the game once and for all, a true evil trying to end ALL timelines/ realities.
Thank you so much for all you do. Especially the spoiler warnings and different titles. I try very hard to go in to the expansions without any leaks and the day the expansion drops my phone is bombarded with videos that have pictures and titles giving everything away! Waited until we completed the legendary campaign to come back and watch your videos. Also, Dynasty was absolutely amazing!
Oh byf you are amazing aren't you, just about to get some sleep and you drop this, glad Dynasty is back up, it was epic and you and the team did such a great job, keep up the good work and I hope you're doing well!
I just wanted to express to you that I appreciate all the videos that you make and the attention to detail from them. You have helped me to experience the lore in such a way adds to it in every way. I hope that you continue to make these videos despite the recent issues. Thank you for hard work and dedication.
You got tons of rewatches of Dynasty coming from me Byf! all the art, animations, voice acting, and just all around creativeness makes it worth the rewatches 👍
The formlessness of the darkness draws parallels with the "One Thing" from the emerald tablet writings (if interested there's a book called The Emerald Tablet: Alchemy of Personal Transformation by Dennis W Hauck). Maybe Bungie is using some of the lore around this for inspiration
For those unaware, the Flower Game referenced in the lore and in this video is an exact recreation of Conway's Game of Life, or simply the Game of Life (and no, not the board game). The four rules are exactly the same, and when you set an ai to play it out, it will inevitably devolve into repeating patterns of some kind. These rules are... Rule One. A living flower with less than two living neighbors is cut off. It dies. Rule Two. A living flower with two or three living neighbors is connected. It lives. Rule Three. A living flower with more than three living neighbors is starved and overcrowded. It dies. Rule Four. A dead flower with exactly three living neighbors is reborn. It springs back to life
I think the Witness's final argument will simply be that we have been following the sword logic all this time anyway. We've destroyed (and sometimes made into weapons) a lot of the enemies we've destroyed.
"The sword logic teaches that what cannot be destroyed will surpass infinity. The Hive were lost to this childish game. Too obsessed by the violence of the first knife to see the final carving. Are you not also a prisoner of this eternal chase? For all your power, you destroy to receive glittering rewards. The commendations of your peers. Triumphant accolades... for all to see. We offer you an escape. Embrace this truth. Be uplifted. ..Triumphant against entropy." You were almost right, difference being that The Witness ended up hating the sword logic and was using it against us to try to get us to go on his side
I also feel that the shooting range inside the anomaly, is a further representation to this cutscene. With the phrase "you have no further pieces to place. And the witness' actions kind-of made me think of games like duello where a good portion of winning is being able to swap the opposing pieces to your side. Like with the darkness has been trying to do to us since shadowkeep(if not earlier) what it did to the krill(who we found were supposedly about to recieve aid from the traveler) what it did with calus and what it could be making a move to do to Mara Sov. The traveler has placed its pieces in ways that it can only move passively now with ineffective moves, meanwhile the Witness and the darkness(if they are seperate) just has to make moves to turn the white pieces to black.
The traveler has been "turning black pieces white" as well. Mithrax and House Light, Caiatl and her cabal, and of course Savathun. Difference is that it doesn't really do so actively in the same way that the Witness tempts people to darkness. Instead it does so through its Ghosts and its Guardians, making their own choices. Bomb logic vs sword logic.
@@IncaendiumDCS Savathun is the only one of those that's a "black piece" imo. The eliksni previously already had the light and the traveller abandoned them, and the cabal were just a separate race that were never involved directly in the game (at least not given powers by the gardener/winnower).
@@IncaendiumDCS Bomb Logic - chaotic way not entirely eliminating the agency "of the piece to turn to white" vs Sword Logic - direct, purposeful or even brutal way of shifting "white pieces to dark ones". Yeah, checks out.
God idk how long now I’ve been a sub to this channel. But it’s by far my fav destiny lore channel. I find myself sometimes being lulled to sleep by Byfs’ smooth voice during his longer vids 😂
I don't think the Witness is the Darkness, just as the same as we don't see the Traveler as the Light. The Light and Dark are but neutral forces in the universe, neither good or bad. The Witness, to my understanding, is a creature born purely of Darkness, a God of Darkness. As Savathûn said, the Witness isn't a physical form of the Darkness, but it "wears it like a cloak".
Didn't she, or some other voice line, say it is a ancient race left behind in similar fashion to the Eliksni? They were something else, were forsaken and left behind, and now are chasing a power and ideal they realized are as fallible and fickle as a leaf on the wind.
There's a voice line in the Yeet the Child exotic quest where Mara confirms that the The Witness and the Voice in the Darkness are the same entity. However, I'm still not entirely convinced that TW is 100% the Winnower, at least not entirely. Perhaps in the same sense that Crow isn't 1:1 with Uldren. I dunno.
I believe the Gardener and the Winnower are just other interpretations of the Light and the Darkness, two forces. The Traveler holds the power of the Light and is using it to evolve civilizations and create powerful beings to protect itself, while the Witness is using the Darkness for its own schemes. The forces themselves aren't good or bad, they tap into different aspects of reality, but they've been wielded and enforced by beings with intentions that so far have been portrayed as good and evil. That is until we began wielding the Darkness, revealing that the power itself isn't sinister, we just exist in a universe where this same power has always been used to obliterate species across the universe. TLDR: Darkness isn't bad, The Witness is. Light isn't good. The Traveler has just used it to protect itself, and by extension us and civilizations before us.
The moment you asked to watch it again, I paused this video opened a new tab with the video Dynasty and pressed play. Most definitely such an amazing video.
I’ve rewatched it twice already, on different accounts from my first viewing. I’m a lore buff, even in the months and often years I’ve taken in between Destiny content releases, and so often I’ve watched one of your videos to catch up or even to recap lore in a nice relaxing way. It was upsetting to me to know just how harshly you and your team would be punished for an errant copyright strike after putting in so much work, especially after seeing it on trending at #16 and how much it was due to catapult in views. Here’s to many more rewatches. I hope it passes 1m by next week.
As a content creator myself, before Dynasty released, I was really thinking "man I hope they don't get it with some bullshit copyright claim or strike because of something on this".
My question, though, is *WHY* is it called the witness. A thought I had comes from the phrase "bear witness". Because it bore witness to the flower game, and witnessed the truth of the sword logic and final shape. But that would suggest that the witness is a bystander, and not the winnower, so given that we now know the Darkness can and will lie, maybe there is one above the witness. Or not. God th is so confusing and convoluted I LOVE IT. All I know is I'm hyoed for what comes next
hey I appreciate you explaining the lore and stuff every other video out there I've found is like 3 hours long for explaining the entire story for destiny now I can digest the story in small chunks
I've already watched Dynasty 3 times before it was taken down. I honestly can't STOP watching it or having it in the background. You and the team did phenomenal work, and if that after credits scene is to be believed, then my FAVORITE lore is up next in Dynasty! Do not apologize for asking us to invest time into what we love Byf. Your work is what I look forward to, and I can't wait to see what's next! I'll see you in the Wilds my friend!
I could very well have misunderstood, but I thought that from Savathun's expositions throughout the campaign, the Witness is NOT the Darkness manifest. I thought the Witness was using the Darkness for its own purposes, whereas the Darkness itself has communicated to us different desired and even assisted us and continues to assist us. The Traveler is the Light/Gardener manifest, and the Witness might be the Winnower, but I don't think the Witness is Darkness manifest.
The “Darkness” that is “helping” us is the Witness. He’s the one that told us that “we are not your enemy” etc. The Darkness that helps us is the one in the Pyramids, and the Pyramids are controlled by the Witness. And it’s not “helping” us completely lol, they even specifically said that they are not our friend...
The way I see it, The Traveller may be the Gardener, and The Witness may be the Winnower, but neither are the Light or Darkness. These are just inanimate forces of power that we can wield.
I will happily watch the entirety of Dynasty again. It is hands down the best lore project you and your team have ever put together. And that’s not to undersell your previous work, Your Thorn TLW project is equally as amazing just without the live action movie feels. Thank you for everything you and your team do for the lore of this amazing game
The true creatures of darkness that we have fought so far are riven and xol and both have the naming convention of 'a thousand'. Xol l, will of a thousand voices could translate to will of the witness. And riven of a thousand voices could suggest that riven was apart of the witness or its armada but split off from it when riven was "taken". The very ability to wish could also have originated in the witness too if your theory is true
So far there has been no (reliable) confirmation in lore or otherwise that the Ahamkara are related to the Worm Gods or the Darkness. Riven was the last surviving Ahamkara that Uldren found and gifted to his sister. Mara used Riven to construct the Dreaming City, and only a long while later, when Oryx arrived in Sol, did Riven become taken. Even though it’s possible that the Ahamkara are a group that split of from the Worm Gods (or vice versa) Riven most certainly didn’t do that when she was taken, because she was already independent a long time before being taken. And I wouldn’t consider Riven a “true creature of the darkness”. (If that were true she wouldn’t need to be taken in the first place…) So yeah, the entity most closely related to the taken that we’ve encountered so far was Xol. However I think even the Worm Gods are just a species manipulated by the Witness.
@@Yogarine I think they are related because the name similarity and and the 1000 voices is the same attack that xol uses and that it is rewarded for "killing" the ahamkara is too coincidental to ignore
@@sgtspoon2313The titles “Xol, Will of the Thousands” and “Riven of a Thousand Voices” seem similar, but does not necessarily mean they are related, outside of the fact they both gain their power through bargains. If you look closer at the titles you’ll notice that outside of the fact that they both mention a four figure number, they are written quite differently. Xol’s title is written quite explicitly as a title, with a comma in between, and mentions a multiple of thousands. “Riven of a Thousand Voices” is written more ambiguously and mentions a specific number of voices: 1000. Like I said, they could be different species with similar ancestry. However throughout the lore there is nothing implying that Riven had any ties to the Darkness until she was Talen by Oryx. If you really want to keep pushing forward the fact that both titles contain the string “thousand” as some proof that Riven is a “true creature of the darkness,” let’s just settle that they were both massively powerful beings the gain power through bargains. But just as Guardians can be corrupted to the darkness, it could be the Worm Gods were good creatures but corrupted by the Witness to do their bidding.
When I saw the cutscene for the first time, I was laughing at the absurdity of it. But after a few more watches I'm actually freaked out by the humanoid design to "the witness". So simple but so well defined in it's movement
Because the Darkness is a neutral paracausal force, it can be used to do good things or bad things, but it’s just a power, like the Light. The Winnower is not neutral at all, it has a philosophy, an objective, it wants something, it’s definitely not just a force that can be used...
@@davida1229 The *Witness* has a philosophy, objective, etc. but we don't actually know yet if the Winnower and the Witness are one and the same. The Winnower could very well be the Darkness, and thus be neutral, while the Witness/Entity/Voice is merely the single mode adept wielder of the Darkness.
@@The5lacker but we already know that the Winnower is not neutral, he wants to achieve something, it talks about this in Unveiling. I don’t think the Witness is exactly the same, but it’s something that follows the Winnower philosophy. The Winnower exists beyond our reality, and the Witness is following that philosophy in our “material” world, at least that’s what I think. We know that there is some connection at least between Winnower and Witness (the Winnower “talks” in a Pyramid, and the Witness controls the Pyramids...)
@@Lewolf2716 the fact that it’s not the Winnower (and it isn’t written anywhere) doesn’t mean the 2 are completely separate. We already know that this is false, the Winnower talks to us in a Pyramid, the Witness controls the Pyramids, so the 2 must be related, in a way. The Pyramid also, to this moment, really seems to have followed the search for the Final Shape, which is exactly the Winnower philosophy..,
Hey Byf! I played Destiny 1 and found you back when I was 14 years old. I had no idea anything about the lore of this game or that there even was any! I’m now 21 and had to give up playing the game years ago because I have had no opportunity to play it since then. I’ve always loved the lore though and your videos are the only way I can still connect with the story I fell in love with all those years ago. Thank you king. Thank you so much 🥲
Stopped playing Destiny years ago, never touched D2, yet the lore and your videos kept me up to speed. I love this universe and the in-depth looks you have on it. Thanks again !
Savathun says its not the darkness but it wears it like a cloak. Just like how the Traveller isnt light itself but it creates light. The darkness and the light arent living things they are forces of the universe. The Witness is an entity or wielder of darkness.
@@fishnutz5196 I think your right, but not necessarily a wielder but a controller. I guess that's kind of same same but different, but I think its intriguing.
Thank you for this video. As others have mentioned, I think equating the Witness to the Winnower is a hasty conclusion. That would implicitly equate the traveler to the Gardner. Yet both, the winnower and the Gardener, clearly exist outside of a manifested space and time. As you point out , it is their conflict that precipitated potential into matter and time. Since our universe, according to this lore, is a precipitation, and therefore a polarized reduction of an infinite garden of possibilities, nothing within it can be equated to that which caused it. There are also, according to the lore, an infinite variation of universes existing in different timelines. Most likely, you would have “emissaries” which are only the manifestation of the initial polarization from whence everything we know came into existence. Perhaps The Witness and The Traveler could be manifestations of Darkness and Light, but not the actual transcendent beings that the Winnower and the Gardener appear to be.
The Parasite exotic quest has some even more interesting revelations with regards to the Witness and Savathun, as well as seeming to explain some of her lines.
Something weird happened to us, I got this cutscene on first completion of the normal campaign and then when I went back and did it on legendary it didn’t.
Rewatched dynasty byf….. thank you to you and your team for all the effort that you and y’all put in there. It is blatantly Evident, speaks volumes, is greatly done… And most of all is greatly appreciated. Looking forward to more
So everyone talks about the entity like it's behind the darkness or is the darkness, but from what i've read wouldn't the entity be the final ultimate form of life that the flower game ultimately produces? It seems to me like the traveler is the gardener that decided to insert itself into the universe so as to change the rules, and the pyramid ships seem the same for the winnower. Guardians are one of those changes to the rules, but the entity/witness would be the final form of life that the winnower/darkness believe in. Basically wouldn't that mean the entity/witness is kind the darkness'/winnower champion or endgame but not the darkness itself? Even savathun said as osiris in presage that "the fact that there is a difference means we don't fully understand". Yet i often hear lore people talk about them like they are one and the same?
I think the Vex were the ones that "won" the last flower game. Now, with paracausal forces interjecting themselves, the entity is probably the darkness's "final shape."
Rewatching dynasty for you mate! You did a remarkable job, as someone brand new to the game that video really helped me feel I understood a lot more behind the destiny story which made playing the witch queen even better
I guess we know what the Darkness means when it says it brings Salvation. Salvation from our weak, undeserving lives that struggle to survive. But what a twist it would be if the Witness was the Gardener.
I have a theory, As the Witness is also known as the Formless One and as the name would suggest he is a being capable of altering/shifting its appearance. I belive that Taox the Osmium Traitor the one who betrayed the Osmium Throne is actually the Witness; in a cutscene the Witness states that "These frail siblings will soon be claimed by the light." "Unless we claim them first." The Witness knew that if he did not do something that Traveller would claim them and render them servants of the Light, so in an attempt to set them on a path away from the light and toward The Deep she betrayed the Osmium Court and set them on a path wherein their only way to survive would be to serve the Deep and then She wiped Sathona's memories of them having a choice between the light and the dark. The way that the Witness actually achieved this was through the use of the worm familiar, its that same white worm that Sathona can be seen holding in that aforementioned cutscene. It washed ashore and came into the possession of the Osmium King to which it would whisper about an oncoming calamity; A God Wave, these whispers would soon find their way into Sathona's ear and feed into her fear and pride, convincing her that the only thing lay in the sky was an impending cataclysm in an attempt to drive her away from the Traveller. Furthermore supplanting the idea that their only way out was to go deep within the oceans of Fundament, toward the Worms and conveniently away from the Traveller. The worm familiar would eventually lead them to ship that they could discern to not be of their world, that same ship would take them into depths of fundaments oceans.
Taox was a krill. The Witness, already a powerful being in service of Darkness for aeons, sent his disciple, Rhulk, himself already slaughtering for ages, to prevent the ascencion of the krill to lightbearers. They were coerced into serving the Worm Gods with Taox's agency, orchestrated by Rhulk. She is of no consequence here, and what you say does not add up. The Witness did not have to insert themselves as a krill to achieve this.
Byf I hope everything evens out smoothly and you come out unscathed I've been watching your content for a long time I will be a viewer till now to the end of d2, see you starside guardian
It's heavily implied the dominant flower pattern is the vex, they kept winning the game because they can simulate the universe perfectly, the gardener became a rule in the game which was paracausal light, the winower in response became paracausal dark, the reason the vex have so much trouble fighting us is because paracausal abilities violate the rules of the universe and they can't simulate it. The line that they became rules in the game would mean the winnower literally is the darkness in both force and entity, and vice versa for the gardener, which confuses me how they now say the witness is not the darkness but a being cloaked in it. This would lead me to believe that unveiling was lying about that part
The Winnower and the Witness are different things. I’d say entities, but I don’t think “the Winnower” was ever intended to imply actual consciousness. It’s the name given to the force itself. The Winnower is just a name for the Darkness itself. Like how some people say that “Lady Luck is on their side.” It’s a personification applied to it, not literal. It is possible there is a consciousness to both Light and Dark though. If we ever see the light and dark “speak” to us, I do wonder if they’ll be like talking to a sentient computer. Not sapient, just sentient. I get the impression they are more or less embodiments of life and death that follow certain innate rules that make them appear to have goals. I suspect that is why the guardians are “living dead,” but the hive are “the dead living.” I’ve noticed that despite being called “dead,” Guardians are shown to still act as living beings, whereas the hive have always been referred to as our counterpart, being dead creatures that survive for the purpose of causing death. We protect, they destroy, perfectly reflecting the concepts of light and dark, but with motive rather than just fundamental purpose like the light and dark. I would also agree that the Vex are a walking version of the Flower Game, and they are probably so closely tied to the Black Garden due to how analogous it is to the idea of endless possibility. They are the “old game” before paracausal power existed. I think Bungie was intending to say that even though they can technically travel time, they can’t do anything ultimately because they abide by rules that are analogous to the Flower Game. If they can travel time, it doesn’t matter when paracausal abilities technically nullify the idea of time anyway. Can’t simulate what’s outside of their “game”. I suspect that’s why they are a base life form in a metal shell. I don’t imagine they are actually the life forms mentioned in the game, given that the game had many forms of life, but rather they just show how Destiny’s universe functions. They are technically a perfect life form in the context of the flower game, but can only move along a linear path, and that’s not good enough now that the rules are different and light and dark break the flow of universal causality. They’d be unstoppable and dominant in a world that only works in a linear rule set. That’s probably why they worship the darkness but can’t really use it in any meaningful way. It’s a proof-of-concept that the Flower Game is no longer the game that matters. The meta game, the metanarrative, is the one that matters now. Also, I wanted to add that it’s an extremely interesting point you made. I hadn’t ever fully considered that about the vex. I always thought of them as obsolete and barely a threat but I couldn’t pin down why I felt that way aside from them being clunky and never seeming to understand the game they are playing. Comparing them to the Flower Game makes perfect sense. They only know one way to do things and require all their pieces on the board, which is why they try to recover any Minds they lose by time traveling and getting them back. We’re playing 3D chess and they are still playing 2D checkers. They have one move, one type of piece, and the best they can do is reach the opposite side of the board and get a “King piece,” like Quria (I doubt that it’s something Bungie did on purpose, making their rules similar to checkers, but considering they mimicked the “Taken King’s” logic, the checkers analogy works oddly well).
If it is the Winnower, then they got some splainin' to do. Per Unveiling: "We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes." It never speaks of the Winnower as an actual entity or being. It anthropomorphizes it, in the same way we say "Evolution decided that this species shouldn't survive" when Evolution is not a being. So turning the Winnower into an actual being, if that's who this is, is a thumbs down from me. Significantly less interesting for it to be a living, breathing, killable entity.
The Witch Queen has put Destiny on a whole other Level, I'm honestly in Awe. Bungie should be so so proud of this next Era of Destiny, this amount of Grandure is what Destiny should have always been. Just mind blowing revelations.
There's something I've been wondering about for a while, and now that the Witness is revealed as it's own proper being, it makes me even more curious; Can the Entity/(insert all other names) defeat itself? If it had its powers turned against it, or found itself in an empty universe devoid of all other life and so, I would assume, it would then petition itself for the right of existence, could it fail? If it does defeat itself, then the Sword Logic is inherently contradictory and can't be true, and thus the universe was destroyed for no reason. If it can't defeat itself, it being the most powerful Darkness wielder in existence with pretty much no equal and the fact it seems to be a proper player in the game, then it itself seems like a contender and most likely to be the Final Shape. In which case the whole idea of a species or other single being trying to become the Final Shape is a sort of deception on its part. If the second option is true and it is that powerful, then why bother undermining the Guardians and break us apart if it could just stream roll everything? Unless working together actually could be a possible counter to it I suppose... like adding together all our strengths and covering each other's weaknesses...
The Darkness doesn't desire a universe with no life. It desires a self-sustaining universe, a singular pattern that just is and was whittled down from all other potential patterns. In fact, it even admits that both it and the Light don't know who is right in their line of thinking when it comes to the 'Flower Game'. At least, that's my understanding of the motives that the Darkness itself has.
@@Techhunter_Talon i think the Winnower is not the Witness. The Winnower has an idea and admits that neither him or the Traveller knows Who's right. The Witness looks like It believes firmly the Sword logic is true. So, It might be the Witness is a Fanatic follower of the Sword logic, the top in the Sword logic pyramid. But not the Darkness itself
I thought about that last part you wrote about adding strength.I think is somewhat comfirmed that The Witness are several species or one species that came together (many names,many voices) .Then remembered about the Disciples of The Witness like Calus and Mara Sov.What do they have in common? I think is that same ability of coming together for example Mara and the techeuns can create a collective "mind/state?" , the same happens with the psions (innate duplication/conversion) and taken psions. Now imagine that the witness comes and helps Calus and Mara achieve the same form in exchange for their life .In my opinion the Witness is not the Final Shape but is really really close to it.I think what it lacks is us or not technically "us" but the light is some way to be able to destroy and create life in the universe as it pleases maybe following the pattern.
I already extensively wrote that above in an other comment, but I'd like to throw my hat in here: The Witness is a strong contender for the Final Shape, firmly applying sword logic to achieve it. But...there is another contender in plain sight: a being that overcame everything and everyone so far threatening its and their allies' existence.A resurrected human/exo/awoken, that unwittingly applies Sword Logic for years and years now, and is highly successful so far in that regard. As for the difference of the Witness eradicating entire galaxies of beings while this one mainly eliminates forces that come to end him (I could even argue that as it literally kills millions of beings for random local agendas)...makes no difference in the advance towards the Final Shape.
The 'Witness' and the 'Winnower' are sort of the same, in the same way the that the very tip of an entire mountain range is still the mountain range. Even the physical design of the 'Witness' aligns with this, like an infinitely spanning entity pushing its finger through the veil to present a physical form. Without shattering the universe, the 'Witness' is not an enemy that can be stopped by us. Frankly, the Traveller could do with getting off it's bulbous arse and actually do something.
Hey Byf I got a question. So on the first memory mission for Savathun she says that she stand before the witness. She says that "It is not Darkness, but something that wears it like a cloak. It gives Darkness a wicked shape." At this point we can assume that this is something she want to remember. Do you think that this is a lie? That the Darkness is using the Witness to enact its will. Awesome video BTW.
In the shadow keep cutscene it’s possible that the reflection of us is entirely the witness himself or a projection of them because of the body language, specifically the folded hands
I don't think the Witness is the same as the Darkness or the Deep. I think, according all the dialogue and lore we have so far, and as many pointed out, the Witness seems to be the ultimate master of the force, but is not synonymous with it. At this point it seems the Witness and the Traveler are at direct odds with one another, and we have to ask if the Unveiling lore book is talking about the Gardener and the Winnower in terms of Light and Dark, or more likely it's talking about the Traveler and the Witness, and the book is meant to be taken as a metaphorical retelling of the conflict as opposed to the literal cosmology and mythos of Light and Dark. I think we have been conflating the entities that control the paracausal forces to the paracausal forces themselves, just like the in universe characters, or at least some of them. I'm open to be wrong, and other interpretations, of course. But this is what makes the most sense to me.
I don’t know if it’s exactly the WITNESS being at odds with the traveler, rather I do still think it’s just dark vs light, traveler vs pyramids, but the difference being that the witness is the being that has been “blessed” by the darkness to effectively lead its campaign against the light and/or the traveler, while the traveler just keeps searching for its version of the witness to protect itself from the darkness/pyramid ships. I dunno though maybe I’m forgetting something important. It’s late.
The values expressed through the darkness and its many vassals are of the witness/winnower/voice in the darkness/the black edge. Its just that the darkness is like a sword, you don’t condemn the sword for killing you judge the knight wielding the sword. But the sword is inseparable from the knight unless something happens to either the sword or the knight who commands it.
What if the flower game is just a metaphore for the cycle of The Traveler choosing a planet and blessing it like with the Eliksni (seeding life/blessing life), following by The Darkness coming like in The Whirlwind and The Collapse (cut away the grain from the chaff). The new rules the traveler added might as well just be Guardians. I wonder what are the implications of this if true.
@@gackolpz and this round of the game is (Gardener) Traveler/Light vs (Winnower) The Witness (Winnower) The Witness is to the Darkness as the Traveler is to the Light. The Traveler has used various species before creating Guardians and The Witness has used Oryx, Savathun etc.
The Flower Game is over. We are not in any iteration of the Flower Game. The instant the Gardener and the Winnower entered the Game, and fought, it became a different game, with different rules. This all happened at the literal dawn of time. There has never been any time in our universe where the Flower Game was played.
![ปฏิเสธไม่ไหว (Crush on you) - LIPTA feat. No One Else [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NBw1jF342vw/mqdefault.jpg)
It’s amazing that Destiny went from “I don’t have time to explain why I don’t have time to explain” to multiple Grimore books, huge lore projects like Dynasty, and videos like this. I’m grateful to be apart of it
I thought that too 😄
What?
100%
Dynasty is fan made
Dang 222 comments
I still remember the day my Titan was resurrected outside the Cosmodrome, getting to the Tower for the first time with countless questions. And now, almost eight years later, here he is, with an almost complete understanding of the universe Light, Darkness and life itself.
Wait, are you implying that there are Titans have the ability to form questions? I always believed their thought process (if you can even call it that) was "PunChy pUncHY SHoTguN BubBLe!!!"
@@braedenbarr4047 Yeah, my Titan had the exact same experience and understanding as him...but it only has more questions and is even more confused. Haha
@@soulsurvivor8293 my titans too, with less questions, I think...
@@braedenbarr4047 I think you forgot the part about us Titans eating crayons
A Titan thinking? The very thought is preposterous
It’s stated that the Witness is NOT the darkness but a being that wears it like a cloak. The darkness is a neutral force in the universe. It is the witness that is using it in a malicious manner as stated by numerous characters. However he is the closest thing to the darkness and could be described as the true representative of the force just like the traveller
*It. I don’t think the Witness is ever referred to with a definite gender.
Here's my question, why are the darkness statues we see very obviously female? And why does the witness only vaguely resemble them? Is that another form or another entity entirely, did the witness give gaurdians the darkness powers or some other being within the darkness pantheon?
@@willcaster819 idc about gender, I call everything a he by default.
@@deadseagaming9349 the Witness, isn’t the pyramids. If the traveler is analogous to the Light and the pyramids to the Dark then that would make the Witness similar to… idk a guardian perhaps? If you look at it from the perspective of Sword Logic vs Bomb Logic, the Witness might be the single all powerful wielder of the Darkness while we are the many warriors of the Light.
Just my theory of course.
@@deadseagaming9349 Probable. The witness is the voice in the darkness, Mara mentions that the voice that we heard inside the pyramids was him, so he called us to receive stasis on Europa.
But i don't think the veiled figure is from the same race of the witness but a subordinated to him.
The Witness turning around at the end signifies to me that it stopped talking to the Traveler and instead was referring to us or the player character, as if it somehow knew that we see it. It felt like it was calling back to the concept of “The Player on the Other Side”
And those eyes…..they never blinked…..
So it's OUR pale heart that holds the key. That's an interesting thought.
that makes sense.
@@thespiral936 that may refer to us being dead and having the heart of a corpse. Or are hearts naturally pale? Idk. Makes a little more sense when the subject is Us. It almost calls back to Beyond Light with the whole theme of looking deep within to unleash a dark power. That and....well...the Nine. 3 keys to apotheosis - Judgement, Death, Perfection. I recall something along those lines from old Trials gear....
I had the same thought, and that notion made the Witness all the more unsettling.
Invitations of the Nine, discussed breaking the 4th wall. I’m now intrigued if this is not a part of that itself.
A thought on the Witness. Based entirely on the name alone, it is not the Winnower from the tale. It bore witness to them and their game. And I think the Witness is represented in that story as The First Knife.
I like this take. It's worth remembering that the witness "wears" the darkness. Best we can tell, the winnower *is* the darkness. The winnower just wants the strongest pattern to win, the Witness wants to destroy everything
Hmm. That would explain some of it's weird, demonstrably false, ideals.
"The Witness is The First Knife" is a *fascinating* idea. I don't think it's literally true, but it could very well be a useful allegory. I'd also put forwards the Sword Logic as a more direct translation of The First Knife from the Garden: This axiom that the Winnower discovers the instant the Gardener draws the two of them into the Game as not just rules, but entities.
I actually had the same thought. If you look at the history of Destiny and how it names different entities, there tends to be a pattern of literal interpretation. The traveler travels from system to system, looking for suitable species to aid, the speaker speaks to the traveller, the guardians guard the traveller, etc. I believe he is called the Witness because he was witness to a vital moment in time that had a major impact on all future events.
I’m pretty sure they explicitly say during the campaign that the darkness and the witness are two different entities anyway
One cool thing about the Witness's appearance is that the part of him that is white protrudes an endless smokey effect but the part of him that is dark is stable and holds it's appearance. A lot of what we seems to show some symbolism that the Darkness may not be fully about the darkness and being this being of evil.
its about being megamind 2 bro
Hey BYF you don’t have to apologize you and the team pulled your asses off with dynasty and anyone who watches it will be impressed remember you’ve helped out a bunch of Destiny players and even other people who haven’t even started D1 or D2. I especially appreciate your dedication to this project I wish I could’ve helped out with the 3d animations because I’m getting a degree in game design. Thank you so much Byf and the team for doing this project I was ultra excited to see what you guys came up with it made my day before Witch was released and thanks again!!!🙏❤️
Yea, super project. When I playes the campagne and it told us, that the history of the hive was based on lies, my first thought was: Oh crap, Byf! He must be so pissed, because he has to correct the "core-lore" of his project.
That gave my fireteam a good laugh. Hope it wasn't to bad for you.
As a lore-loving Warlock-Main, great Videos and keep it up Lore-daddy.😂👍
Literally. BYF Makes The Destiny Experience Feel Even More Real. We Thank U For Be Our Speaker
Absolutely agree with commentor.... super greatful for all the videos you release and the help it provides with the lore and entertainment. Illl go back and watch Dynasty a few more times.... even if I just have it on in the background while playing
At some point in the campaign it was said that "The witness isn't the darkness itself but something that wears it like a cloak". Doesn't this imply that the witness is not the winnower and something else deeply related to the darkness instead?
I wouldn't be surprised that if in lightfall we beat the witness in the end then the final shape would be the ultimate force of darkness. The darknesses final form. Its "final shape".
Yep, when Byf said they are the same, I went through the same thinking process as you.
@Sarciety yes but the witness is the child of darkness not what created it as the winnower and the gardener are those forces themselves the witness has a detailed backstory with its own species as savathun said
Also they use different pronouns and the winnower denounces those who try to wipe out all life calling them nihalists which the witness would be for what it does with countless civilisations
@@LeCryx (Personal theory) The final shape is a concept pertaining to the Flower Game. It's the final form of evolution, a life form that can survive anything. The rules of the Flower Games before the one we're in, didn't have paracausality. This means that life evolved into the same being over and over and over again, the Vex. They can't comprehend Light or Dark, nor simulate it. As a civilization, they are unkillable. However, the current Flower Game has different rules. It has paracausal forces. While the Vex are the ultimate Causal species, and the previous Final Shapes, I hypothesize that the Final Shape in our Flower Game/universe will be a being that has full manipulation of paracausality. Not just of light or of darkness, but one that can channel both. The final shape will be the Guardians, after we get our other 2 darkness subclasses.
@@justicebrown1077 I can’t wait to kick the shit out of the witness and then be like, “now im the boss, bitch!”
“Devotion leads to bravery, bravery leads to sacrifice, sacrifice leads to death”. What the Winnower doesn’t understand is death isn’t always because of weakness. The strong sacrifice themselves to protect those that can’t protect themselves. They don’t die because they are weak, they die because they are so strong that they are willing to give their entirety for the benefit of someone else, devotion. Those people shouldn’t be left in the ground they should be exalted. That’s what the Gardner believes.
To play Devils Advocate: Those who sacrifice themselves to save others wouldn't have to do so if the ones being saved weren't so weak as to need saving.
The arguement of Value is such a multifaceted one, and I find it unbelievably fascinating. I dont agree with the Witness, but I understand its point of view.
I love seeing this kind of discussion! This is the kind of stuff that makes my day!
@@redhoodie4111 well fits with how the gardener is complexity and the winnower is simplicity. A simple society would be that but a more complex social structure would require lots of different people with different skills which in the end is much more effective.
So the Gardener chooses those who had done great things in their lives (for better or worse) and allows them to become guardians. What defines those great things? Was it as simply as giving your life willingly to save another, or was it as grand as changing the lives of many people and done many things, even if those things are disastrous?
@@Strykerclass242 well the ghosts do and they look for specific attributes i believe (not too sure) so if they are looking for someone who is strong they might resurrect a strong but horrible person. Which is probably why you lose your memories when your revived
Just want to point out, Savathun saved the traveler once before, even while still having her worm. And Savathun isn’t quite dead either, so maybe she could become a true ally
I do think that we will have a unity between all forces to fight the Darkness. Like Savathun know's she was lied too now and we still have Eramis trapped in ice who was swayed by darkness, again even we were but we used the power for good but Mara Sov pointed out that she was ready to kill us if we had gone bad. It's something to think about. How many people were used by the darkness that might rebel now if it comes at us in force. We could see a Hive faction similar to the cabal, we could see the Vex decide that teaming up is the only course of action that will save them, as they have access to time and simulations.
It;s all very interesting and very open right now.
That would be super cool
If i was a guardian serving orb god i would interoperate this as him telling us that we are on the same as the hive. It’s like a “hey everyone work together to save the universe”.
@@burns0100 Seeing as they were described as a force “darker than Darkness itself” I don’t think the Vex really comprehend what the Darkness is. Or maybe they’re the Darkness’ machines 🤷🏾♂️
Lore daddy coming in clutch to explain why Kaos from skylanders is in destiny, let’s go!
Ayo the fact that that is so ACCURATE 😂😂😂🤣🤣
I vibe with this on an emotional level
"Puuuny GUARDIANS, you cannot stop my *SALVATIOOOON* "
Rest in piece to Norm MacDonald, one of the best pairs with Richard Horvitz, next to Rikki Simmons.
AH look at the top of his head!
I love the character design. It can be interpreted so many ways, but I love how it's ever changing, endlessly adapting to its situation. And 'Wearing Darkness like a cloak' is added into it so well. The many voices aspect reflected in its movements, voice and the white smoke coming from its head in the shape of faces, is fantastic! I actually love it.
It’s simple, yet gaseous and shifting form could symbolize visually that the Witness, like the Darkness, can be anywhere or anything. It can take any form (possibly, just speculation).
Everyone knows that it’s the PRESENTATION that makes one super.
And damn, the Witness has a good presentation
The smokestack above his head... and the way his hands multiply and shade as he leaves the goo... the soft voice. Its just superb presentation
The eyes is what makes me unconfortable.
They are just so unnaturally big.
The thing just looks so damn unsettling and i love it. Gives me Voldemort/Darth Vader vibes, 2 great villians. Also the way its hands move and the way its armor shimmers and moves like the darkness architecture does.
@@Jereb343 and the smoke becoming faces as the dissipate
@@Jereb343 agreed. They couldn’t have done a better character design. Maybe a mask to make it more A mystery of What it’s face is. But it’s face already just reveals so much, and as many people make fun of the big eyes, honestly I see it as Just aging eyes that have seen the universe and have as such grown large to See all the traveller has done
The "your heart is the key." Line really gets me hoping that we get to go into the traveler in lightfall
ayo
Traveler raid!?
@@equinoxruinouseffigy7856 it does smell like vanilla
Youre in luck
The opinion on the Witness’ design is polarizing, it seems
I for one love that it’s humanoid but not, familiar but not, understandable but not
The exact way an embodiment of something so far beyond mortal concepts that we are nothing to it should be
Edit: I definitely think the Witness is related to or just is who we met at the end of Shadowkeep, they put their hands together the same way and the big cloud of faces might allow them to warp their appearance/voice as needed
Concerning the appearance, I love it, thinks back on how it looks the witness seems silly, but I remember at the end of the cutscene I physically squirmed in my seat at him looking at the camera.
Also another clue that it’s the same entity as shadowkeep is that he says the inhabitants of sol are crying out for salvation
Cool opinion. But the design could do without the laughable puppy eyes.
@@i.currie1543
It’s also confirmed by Mara that The Witness is the entity that talked to us through our ghost in/around Pyramids and in the Black Garden
This might just be me, but the physical shape of the Witness - the thin body and the smoky mass of faces moving upwards - I noticed that the shape reminds me of the Tree of Silver Wings we saw in Season of Arrivals.
@@i.currie1543 I feel like this franchise gave us some very unusual alien races, like eliksni with 4 hands or hive with 3 eyes... For the ultimate embodiment of darkness to look like megamind kinda undermines that. It seems to lack the same level of creativity.
A thought about the Witness. Savathun says "It is not Darkness, but something that wears it like a cloak. It gives Darkness a wicked shape." As the Light and Dark are both neutral forces, I think that the Witness is not actually the Winnower, or even a personification of it, but a creature that uses the Darkness for malicious purposes. It may even be a direct mirror to the Traveler - neither are really *the* Light or Dark, but vessels to spread it. I think something a lot of people forget is that the Traveler is a sentient being, with a personality and emotions and fears. I think the Witness is the direct juxtaposition to that - another sentient being, not actually the Darkness, but a creature that uses it, or maybe even a player placed there *by* the Winnower - but not the true Darkness itself.
Like a Avatar of God
@@MrVidman14 I would say that, if we were to say that the Light and the Darkness are deities, the Witness is more like a prophet of sorts rather than an avatar. It is its own independent being, but is still connected to the Darkness more than any other being in the universe.
@@zerotwo6814 Honestly, I think it IS the darkness, death incarnate. That smoke affect is eerily similar to the headshot affects when we see an enemies soul leave their body. Except it's like an endless well of souls, for an unnumerable amount of deaths. Just my thought on it. Plus the "Witness" could be referring to him witnessing the birth of the universe. It's a stretch tho
That means the traveler is the same, not light but it wears light as a cloak
@@justicebrown1077 usually the headshot effect is blood (cabal) or ether (eliksni) or the magic of the Hive, not the souls.
"Your pale heart holds the key." I think The Witness here is referencing the power of The Light Itself. Think about it, one of The Entity's many names is The Formless One, but what do we see in the cutscene? A form representing Itself. I think The Winnower's new strategy is to use part of The Light, or a part of Its philosophies, to defeat It. That means that It will take a form and maybe even attempt to steal The Traveler's Light in order to destroy The Gardener, because It knows It can't defeat It any other way.
And we all know that will be its downfall. Because if it takes a form it gives us a target for Gjallarhorn to lock on to 😉
@@fishnutz5196 and if it has a head the sleeper simulant will delete it
@@lunatic-db6mp too true
@@fishnutz5196 and more importantly, if it has physical form... it has something that we can turn into a gun
I think this is just what the darkness is choosing to represent itself as.
I love how we’re starting to see what “shapes” as a metaphysical paracausal concept, look like in practice, and it’s all starting to form a bigger picture towards the end. Like how shapes are formed by memories, almost like a predetermined outcome, almost like the flower game having a deterministic ending, a… Destiny. And “The Final Shape” expansion is probably going to the most revelating thing that we’ve been pondering since D1 when the Speaker told us about the Darkness.
A lot of us have speculated that the Witness may be a Speaker-like figure, except for the Entity rather than the Traveler.
I certainly didn't expect it to be a white Megamind
If the Witness is a Speaker for the Entity then that means in the raid we’re gonna fight The Disciple of The Disciple of the Entity of The Darkness
@@Bagel920 Vow of the disciple could also mean the leviathan.
Kinda like that idea.
Traveler and Entity.
Light and Darkness.
Gardener and Winnower.
The Witness and the Speaker.
I can’t wait till Byf makes a video about the “Two Lies, Two Truths” mission. I don’t know if “The Taken King will rise again” is referencing that being the legacy raid coming in the future, but I hope not. Cause it’d be insane seeing how that happens
been thinking the same! :D
I think that’s just a nod to that by the writers and that’s the lie, like it’s a lie in game but a nod from the writers that that is what the legacy raid will be. Since touch of malice is Oryx’s contingency so he could live forever after death. At least from what we’ve seen it doesn’t make sense that he could come back.
If Oryx came back he would probably kill himself because that goes against the sword logic he loves
@@ZachPlum I think he would kill himself seeing just how powerful guardians have became, he’d be like “THEY CAN DO WHAT NOW? Yeah fuck this, next time, find a different fucking boss.” Then off himself
Oryx slew his sisters, but brought them back through warfare and cunning. The favor could be returned.
I'd just like to point out some symbolic meaning in the Witness' design.
Its cloak flairs out at the bottom, and the pillar of smoke branches out at the top. Like two triangles meeting at his head.
Like an hour glass. But the "sand" is moving up.
It also bears a resemblance to the Tree of Silver wings - a thin body with its smoke branches expanding upwards.
Has some Grey in there as well.
reminds me of what the emissary of the nine said about "people who have transcended their design"
his hands have delay because he is omnipresent
Byf I just wanted to say from the bottom of my heart thank you. You've brought so much to this community with your lore videos and your dynasty project. Your voice is so soothing and calming that I've been using your vids to help me sleep. Keep bringing us these vids and thank for being part of this community.
One thing I loved about the design of the witness is the way it’s form(less) reflects its voice: it’s not just one entity, but what seems to be many. It also is said to have “many names”. I find that intriguing.
The many names also explains why its called The Deep, The Winnower and the Entity. Plus the voices are crazy explains how it can change its voice to whatever like Calus heard in Pressage.
@@fishnutz5196 though I'm pretty sure The Winnower it's the darkness itself, kinda like how the Gardner is the Traveler (or most of us assume to be), which o guess makes The Witness a perfect representation of Sword vs Bomb logic, One single powerful entity vs the many Guardians with varying strengths
Edit: But that's just a Theory, A LORE THEORY
The cutscenes hit harder when you realize just how far you’ve come. I’ve been a warlock since D1 & rocked it to this day. Been an absolute journey.
There's something super important that we now know that i don't see a lot of people talking about, and that's the fact that the winnower essentially broke it's own logic by leading the three sisters into the deep to gain their darkness powers. It essentially did what the traveler does by gifting the krill with darkness powers to get back at the traveler. Even Oryx recognizes this fact that it broke it's own logic/principles as he notes in the B.O.S that his powers were given, not taken, by the worm gods. With all this in mind, it's clear to me that the Witness is more then what it seems, I wouldn't doubt it if he isn't actually the Winnower, and more like a Sauron to Morgoth.
I believe that their goal is simply to kill the Traveller, mot uphold that logic which is why I don't want them to be the Winnover, (especialls because he is decribed wearing darkness like a cloak, not darkness itself) as I think that the Winnover would not break their principle and logic, as that would admit being wrong.
@@Flamme-Sanabi Agreed. Witness appointed Witness as an entity capable of interacting with the world and gave It a mission: kill the Traveller, undo its cheats to the Flower Game.
So the Witness, blindly devout, would follow the Darkness orders, but adopt a "must succeed at all costs" even breaking the Winnowers rules so It can get Closer to destroy the Traveller.
Essentially the creation of the Hive, the second most important asset of the Winnower, was created by gifting the worms. Which backfired on the Hive because It contradicted the Sword logic itself.
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078and I honestly don't think that they would have had good chances with any other being, as most others as we can see, are thiving and would question such promises that were made for the Hive.
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 It could be that the Worms weren't really especially significant, at least initially and the Hive are not an important asset. The Worms were relatively powerful ancient beings that came to worship the Darkness but not much more. Instead perhaps The Witness realised that combining the Worm's offspring with the proto-hive had a unique effect, an incredibly powerful effect. The Hive feeding the Worms turned them into powerful gods but it was a side effect and given it's cannibalistic nature could only lead to ruin for the worm Gods, proven by Oryx's killing of Akka no doubt only Oryx's first step.
I think perhaps the Witness had some premonition about how powerful Light imbued proto-hive would be and used the worm's unique parasitic offspring as a way to take them out of play NOT make them an asset. The Hive serving the Witness is NOT necessary, only that they do not oppose the Witness or worse be blessed by the Traveller. He only recently assumed more direct control of the last Sister, Xivu Arath, presumably because she had the best chance of stopping Savathun before she enacted her plan to grant the Traveller refuge (it is unknown afaik if Savathun knew she would become a guardian/hive guardians).
What about Cayde
you are easily if not the best Destiny review/lore and back story youtube channel out there. i will go watch said video to support you and your team. thanks to you all for what you do.
The witness definitely lived up to its name. Creepy and mysterious with black holes for eyes. Souls pouring from him. I can only imagine that wasn't his final form.
he looks like a pixar movie villain
@@rpemulis megamind
I wont lie i thought he was cool till he showed his face and i literally started laughing. Dude looks like such a dork with the unibrow and big eyes
Yeah, the witness definitely saw something with those eyes 👀
I'm delighted the Dynasty video was restored! Thank you again and will rewatch it :)
Little did we know the whole Destiny franchise was a teaser Megamind 2
I do as the Forcer asks
How do you always have a joke lined up that's hilarious.. God damn man. Keep it up
100% going back to watch Dynasty, you guys worked sooo hard on that and it deserves to be seen. I've seen YT mess up great creators content too many times. Much love my friend
I remember Savathun saying that The Witness is not the Darkness itself, but more of a servant of the Darkness
not even a servant. "It wears the darkness like a cloak. It gives darkness a wicked shape." It's using the darkness for its own ends.
@@dumbsterdives like how we use the light and the darkness powers
and you believe the god of lies and cunning
@@MrSpawley her memory told us, and you can’t lie with memories, especially if you don’t even remember them
Plus Mara already has told us that the witness is evil but darkness itself is not evil
@@MrVidman14 yea like even Ikora said it herself. The darkness is neither our friend nor foe. The darkness is a 100% complete neutral force. The witness uses it to its own ends and puts an evil take on to darkness itself
Hey Byf, thank you for your dedication and hard work. I must say, I do not play Destiny anymore, but I adore its lore, and thus I watch every one of your videos. Thank you for everything you do, and for allowing me to keep up with this incredible universe.
his was one of those rare moments in gaming for me that I long stare at the screen standing still and thinking deeply about what just happened and possible repercussions about the future in the story of the game. thank you Bungie
Yeah that cutscene with the witness was low key creepy. I was sitting there shook afterwards.
I linked the Dynasty video to our clans discord, it was perfect WQ prep before launch! Movie night vibes!🍿
Thank you for going above and beyond!
An interesting thing to think about with the flower game, is that it can have 3 endings depending on the starting conditions
-absolute nothing, since in the flower game nothing emerges out of nothing
-a repeating pattern, which continously happens over and over again, basicly the final shape.
-chaos. A non-repeating always changing pattern. That is what the traveler wants.
And all can happen with the same game, just with different inputs.
Yeah!
The Witness is probably the "Final Shape" that kept emerging from the game. That's why it has the power to "take" from other realities, as Savathun put it.
The Witness is the last thing to survive in each iteration of the game, thus why it says the game is over. The Witness is trying to end the game once and for all, a true evil trying to end ALL timelines/ realities.
@@fn6548 wasn’t it told in the Unveiling lore book that the vex come from that repeating pattern that always won
Thank you so much for all you do. Especially the spoiler warnings and different titles. I try very hard to go in to the expansions without any leaks and the day the expansion drops my phone is bombarded with videos that have pictures and titles giving everything away! Waited until we completed the legendary campaign to come back and watch your videos. Also, Dynasty was absolutely amazing!
Oh byf you are amazing aren't you, just about to get some sleep and you drop this, glad Dynasty is back up, it was epic and you and the team did such a great job, keep up the good work and I hope you're doing well!
I just wanted to express to you that I appreciate all the videos that you make and the attention to detail from them. You have helped me to experience the lore in such a way adds to it in every way. I hope that you continue to make these videos despite the recent issues. Thank you for hard work and dedication.
You got tons of rewatches of Dynasty coming from me Byf! all the art, animations, voice acting, and just all around creativeness makes it worth the rewatches 👍
The formlessness of the darkness draws parallels with the "One Thing" from the emerald tablet writings (if interested there's a book called The Emerald Tablet: Alchemy of Personal Transformation by Dennis W Hauck). Maybe Bungie is using some of the lore around this for inspiration
For those unaware, the Flower Game referenced in the lore and in this video is an exact recreation of Conway's Game of Life, or simply the Game of Life (and no, not the board game). The four rules are exactly the same, and when you set an ai to play it out, it will inevitably devolve into repeating patterns of some kind. These rules are...
Rule One. A living flower with less than two living neighbors is cut off. It dies.
Rule Two. A living flower with two or three living neighbors is connected. It lives.
Rule Three. A living flower with more than three living neighbors is starved and overcrowded. It dies.
Rule Four. A dead flower with exactly three living neighbors is reborn. It springs back to life
I think the Witness's final argument will simply be that we have been following the sword logic all this time anyway. We've destroyed (and sometimes made into weapons) a lot of the enemies we've destroyed.
Meaning?
"The sword logic teaches that what cannot be destroyed will surpass infinity. The Hive were lost to this childish game. Too obsessed by the violence of the first knife to see the final carving. Are you not also a prisoner of this eternal chase? For all your power, you destroy to receive glittering rewards. The commendations of your peers. Triumphant accolades... for all to see. We offer you an escape. Embrace this truth. Be uplifted. ..Triumphant against entropy."
You were almost right, difference being that The Witness ended up hating the sword logic and was using it against us to try to get us to go on his side
I also feel that the shooting range inside the anomaly, is a further representation to this cutscene. With the phrase "you have no further pieces to place. And the witness' actions kind-of made me think of games like duello where a good portion of winning is being able to swap the opposing pieces to your side. Like with the darkness has been trying to do to us since shadowkeep(if not earlier) what it did to the krill(who we found were supposedly about to recieve aid from the traveler) what it did with calus and what it could be making a move to do to Mara Sov. The traveler has placed its pieces in ways that it can only move passively now with ineffective moves, meanwhile the Witness and the darkness(if they are seperate) just has to make moves to turn the white pieces to black.
The traveler has been "turning black pieces white" as well. Mithrax and House Light, Caiatl and her cabal, and of course Savathun. Difference is that it doesn't really do so actively in the same way that the Witness tempts people to darkness. Instead it does so through its Ghosts and its Guardians, making their own choices. Bomb logic vs sword logic.
This a very cool and interesting illustration, and I think it's definitely plausible.
@@IncaendiumDCS Savathun is the only one of those that's a "black piece" imo. The eliksni previously already had the light and the traveller abandoned them, and the cabal were just a separate race that were never involved directly in the game (at least not given powers by the gardener/winnower).
@@IncaendiumDCS Bomb Logic - chaotic way not entirely eliminating the agency "of the piece to turn to white" vs Sword Logic - direct, purposeful or even brutal way of shifting "white pieces to dark ones". Yeah, checks out.
God idk how long now I’ve been a sub to this channel. But it’s by far my fav destiny lore channel. I find myself sometimes being lulled to sleep by Byfs’ smooth voice during his longer vids 😂
I don't think the Witness is the Darkness, just as the same as we don't see the Traveler as the Light. The Light and Dark are but neutral forces in the universe, neither good or bad. The Witness, to my understanding, is a creature born purely of Darkness, a God of Darkness. As Savathûn said, the Witness isn't a physical form of the Darkness, but it "wears it like a cloak".
Didn't she, or some other voice line, say it is a ancient race left behind in similar fashion to the Eliksni? They were something else, were forsaken and left behind, and now are chasing a power and ideal they realized are as fallible and fickle as a leaf on the wind.
I've watched liked and commented but watching it again is not a chore it's an awesome piece of art...you all really should be proud of it
There's a voice line in the Yeet the Child exotic quest where Mara confirms that the The Witness and the Voice in the Darkness are the same entity. However, I'm still not entirely convinced that TW is 100% the Winnower, at least not entirely. Perhaps in the same sense that Crow isn't 1:1 with Uldren. I dunno.
Evil Speaker
I believe it is. The way it talked to the traveler sounded personal.
I believe the Gardener and the Winnower are just other interpretations of the Light and the Darkness, two forces. The Traveler holds the power of the Light and is using it to evolve civilizations and create powerful beings to protect itself, while the Witness is using the Darkness for its own schemes. The forces themselves aren't good or bad, they tap into different aspects of reality, but they've been wielded and enforced by beings with intentions that so far have been portrayed as good and evil. That is until we began wielding the Darkness, revealing that the power itself isn't sinister, we just exist in a universe where this same power has always been used to obliterate species across the universe. TLDR: Darkness isn't bad, The Witness is. Light isn't good. The Traveler has just used it to protect itself, and by extension us and civilizations before us.
This is a good analysis but I lost it at Yeet the Child
Mara confirming something isnt really a good source, we see that in the Yeetus Fetus exotic quest that she doesnt even blink when it comes to lying
The moment you asked to watch it again, I paused this video opened a new tab with the video Dynasty and pressed play. Most definitely such an amazing video.
I’ve rewatched it twice already, on different accounts from my first viewing. I’m a lore buff, even in the months and often years I’ve taken in between Destiny content releases, and so often I’ve watched one of your videos to catch up or even to recap lore in a nice relaxing way. It was upsetting to me to know just how harshly you and your team would be punished for an errant copyright strike after putting in so much work, especially after seeing it on trending at #16 and how much it was due to catapult in views.
Here’s to many more rewatches. I hope it passes 1m by next week.
As a content creator myself, before Dynasty released, I was really thinking "man I hope they don't get it with some bullshit copyright claim or strike because of something on this".
YOU'RE GOING CRAZY WITH THE CONTENT BYF keep up the phenomenal work
My question, though, is *WHY* is it called the witness. A thought I had comes from the phrase "bear witness". Because it bore witness to the flower game, and witnessed the truth of the sword logic and final shape. But that would suggest that the witness is a bystander, and not the winnower, so given that we now know the Darkness can and will lie, maybe there is one above the witness. Or not. God th is so confusing and convoluted I LOVE IT. All I know is I'm hyoed for what comes next
hey I appreciate you explaining the lore and stuff every other video out there I've found is like 3 hours long for explaining the entire story for destiny now I can digest the story in small chunks
I've already watched Dynasty 3 times before it was taken down. I honestly can't STOP watching it or having it in the background. You and the team did phenomenal work, and if that after credits scene is to be believed, then my FAVORITE lore is up next in Dynasty! Do not apologize for asking us to invest time into what we love Byf. Your work is what I look forward to, and I can't wait to see what's next! I'll see you in the Wilds my friend!
byf dynasty is honestly one of the best fan projects ive ever seen i will hapily re watch
I could very well have misunderstood, but I thought that from Savathun's expositions throughout the campaign, the Witness is NOT the Darkness manifest. I thought the Witness was using the Darkness for its own purposes, whereas the Darkness itself has communicated to us different desired and even assisted us and continues to assist us. The Traveler is the Light/Gardener manifest, and the Witness might be the Winnower, but I don't think the Witness is Darkness manifest.
Why would you believe Savuthun tho? The God of lies?
@@caz0141 Because without her worm, she's actually been pretty truthful tbh.
@@Laevaryl she literally lied to us the whole campaign until the end lol
The “Darkness” that is “helping” us is the Witness. He’s the one that told us that “we are not your enemy” etc.
The Darkness that helps us is the one in the Pyramids, and the Pyramids are controlled by the Witness.
And it’s not “helping” us completely lol, they even specifically said that they are not our friend...
The way I see it, The Traveller may be the Gardener, and The Witness may be the Winnower, but neither are the Light or Darkness. These are just inanimate forces of power that we can wield.
I will happily watch the entirety of Dynasty again. It is hands down the best lore project you and your team have ever put together. And that’s not to undersell your previous work, Your Thorn TLW project is equally as amazing just without the live action movie feels. Thank you for everything you and your team do for the lore of this amazing game
There is a model of a city within the pyramid ship during one of the story missions. Looks unique like one of the concept arts of D1
Best part of vid, @5:12 Byf, “so what did we just see” me: “your character dying to a grenade”
As someone who completed it on classic, I can confirm that YES. This does play for completing Classic difficulty.
Same, it showed up for everyone
I think it's a totally missed opportunity for one of those legendary endings Bungie liked to do with Halo lol.
The true creatures of darkness that we have fought so far are riven and xol and both have the naming convention of 'a thousand'. Xol l, will of a thousand voices could translate to will of the witness. And riven of a thousand voices could suggest that riven was apart of the witness or its armada but split off from it when riven was "taken". The very ability to wish could also have originated in the witness too if your theory is true
So far there has been no (reliable) confirmation in lore or otherwise that the Ahamkara are related to the Worm Gods or the Darkness. Riven was the last surviving Ahamkara that Uldren found and gifted to his sister. Mara used Riven to construct the Dreaming City, and only a long while later, when Oryx arrived in Sol, did Riven become taken. Even though it’s possible that the Ahamkara are a group that split of from the Worm Gods (or vice versa) Riven most certainly didn’t do that when she was taken, because she was already independent a long time before being taken.
And I wouldn’t consider Riven a “true creature of the darkness”. (If that were true she wouldn’t need to be taken in the first place…)
So yeah, the entity most closely related to the taken that we’ve encountered so far was Xol. However I think even the Worm Gods are just a species manipulated by the Witness.
@@Yogarine I think they are related because the name similarity and and the 1000 voices is the same attack that xol uses and that it is rewarded for "killing" the ahamkara is too coincidental to ignore
@@sgtspoon2313The titles “Xol, Will of the Thousands” and “Riven of a Thousand Voices” seem similar, but does not necessarily mean they are related, outside of the fact they both gain their power through bargains.
If you look closer at the titles you’ll notice that outside of the fact that they both mention a four figure number, they are written quite differently.
Xol’s title is written quite explicitly as a title, with a comma in between, and mentions a multiple of thousands.
“Riven of a Thousand Voices” is written more ambiguously and mentions a specific number of voices: 1000.
Like I said, they could be different species with similar ancestry. However throughout the lore there is nothing implying that Riven had any ties to the Darkness until she was Talen by Oryx.
If you really want to keep pushing forward the fact that both titles contain the string “thousand” as some proof that Riven is a “true creature of the darkness,” let’s just settle that they were both massively powerful beings the gain power through bargains. But just as Guardians can be corrupted to the darkness, it could be the Worm Gods were good creatures but corrupted by the Witness to do their bidding.
I haven't seen it yet BUT when I finish the campaign, I'm coming straight back here
When I saw the cutscene for the first time, I was laughing at the absurdity of it. But after a few more watches I'm actually freaked out by the humanoid design to "the witness". So simple but so well defined in it's movement
But I remember in the campaign that it is specified that the witness IS NOT the darkness, he wield it but he’s not the winnower it self
Because the Darkness is a neutral paracausal force, it can be used to do good things or bad things, but it’s just a power, like the Light. The Winnower is not neutral at all, it has a philosophy, an objective, it wants something, it’s definitely not just a force that can be used...
@@davida1229 The *Witness* has a philosophy, objective, etc. but we don't actually know yet if the Winnower and the Witness are one and the same. The Winnower could very well be the Darkness, and thus be neutral, while the Witness/Entity/Voice is merely the single mode adept wielder of the Darkness.
@@The5lacker but we already know that the Winnower is not neutral, he wants to achieve something, it talks about this in Unveiling. I don’t think the Witness is exactly the same, but it’s something that follows the Winnower philosophy. The Winnower exists beyond our reality, and the Witness is following that philosophy in our “material” world, at least that’s what I think.
We know that there is some connection at least between Winnower and Witness (the Winnower “talks” in a Pyramid, and the Witness controls the Pyramids...)
@@davida1229 yes i know that i meant that it is clearly stated that the witness is NOT the winnower and byf here say that he is so i'm kinda lost :)
@@Lewolf2716 the fact that it’s not the Winnower (and it isn’t written anywhere) doesn’t mean the 2 are completely separate. We already know that this is false, the Winnower talks to us in a Pyramid, the Witness controls the Pyramids, so the 2 must be related, in a way. The Pyramid also, to this moment, really seems to have followed the search for the Final Shape, which is exactly the Winnower philosophy..,
Hey Byf! I played Destiny 1 and found you back when I was 14 years old. I had no idea anything about the lore of this game or that there even was any! I’m now 21 and had to give up playing the game years ago because I have had no opportunity to play it since then. I’ve always loved the lore though and your videos are the only way I can still connect with the story I fell in love with all those years ago. Thank you king. Thank you so much 🥲
Don't worry, this scene starts after Be Brave difficulty too
Stopped playing Destiny years ago, never touched D2, yet the lore and your videos kept me up to speed. I love this universe and the in-depth looks you have on it.
Thanks again !
I could've sworn I heard throughout the campaign that "The Witness" was not the darkness, but a piece of it or something like that.
Savathun says its not the darkness but it wears it like a cloak. Just like how the Traveller isnt light itself but it creates light. The darkness and the light arent living things they are forces of the universe. The Witness is an entity or wielder of darkness.
@@fishnutz5196 I think your right, but not necessarily a wielder but a controller. I guess that's kind of same same but different, but I think its intriguing.
@@fishnutz5196 Ah, you're right. That clarifys it well.
@@yoitsmunchies controller is a better word or even a creator because we wield the dark too same with the scorn and taken
I know this is late, but sorry to hear about the YT video issue. Hope that stuff was cleared up and you are back track. Keep up the great work!
Thank you for this video.
As others have mentioned, I think equating the Witness to the Winnower is a hasty conclusion. That would implicitly equate the traveler to the Gardner. Yet both, the winnower and the Gardener, clearly exist outside of a manifested space and time. As you point out , it is their conflict that precipitated potential into matter and time. Since our universe, according to this lore, is a precipitation, and therefore a polarized reduction of an infinite garden of possibilities, nothing within it can be equated to that which caused it. There are also, according to the lore, an infinite variation of universes existing in different timelines. Most likely, you would have “emissaries” which are only the manifestation of the initial polarization from whence everything we know came into existence.
Perhaps The Witness and The Traveler could be manifestations of Darkness and Light, but not the actual transcendent beings that the Winnower and the Gardener appear to be.
The Parasite exotic quest has some even more interesting revelations with regards to the Witness and Savathun, as well as seeming to explain some of her lines.
Something weird happened to us, I got this cutscene on first completion of the normal campaign and then when I went back and did it on legendary it didn’t.
Rewatched dynasty byf….. thank you to you and your team for all the effort that you and y’all put in there. It is blatantly Evident, speaks volumes, is greatly done… And most of all is greatly appreciated. Looking forward to more
So everyone talks about the entity like it's behind the darkness or is the darkness, but from what i've read wouldn't the entity be the final ultimate form of life that the flower game ultimately produces? It seems to me like the traveler is the gardener that decided to insert itself into the universe so as to change the rules, and the pyramid ships seem the same for the winnower. Guardians are one of those changes to the rules, but the entity/witness would be the final form of life that the winnower/darkness believe in. Basically wouldn't that mean the entity/witness is kind the darkness'/winnower champion or endgame but not the darkness itself? Even savathun said as osiris in presage that "the fact that there is a difference means we don't fully understand". Yet i often hear lore people talk about them like they are one and the same?
I think the Vex were the ones that "won" the last flower game. Now, with paracausal forces interjecting themselves, the entity is probably the darkness's "final shape."
Much love for the work you’ve been doing with Destiny’s lore throughout it’s lifespan, See you starside from Mexico🇲🇽
The witness is so cool looking with the robotic pyramid parts and the thick face smoke coming out of his head
Rewatching dynasty for you mate! You did a remarkable job, as someone brand new to the game that video really helped me feel I understood a lot more behind the destiny story which made playing the witch queen even better
I guess we know what the Darkness means when it says it brings Salvation. Salvation from our weak, undeserving lives that struggle to survive.
But what a twist it would be if the Witness was the Gardener.
That cutscene of The Witness plays in Classic/Normal campaign as well Byf. Also, awesome job to you and your team on the Dynasty vid.
I have a theory,
As the Witness is also known as the Formless One and as the name would suggest he is a being capable of altering/shifting its appearance. I belive that Taox the Osmium Traitor the one who betrayed the Osmium Throne is actually the Witness; in a cutscene the Witness states that "These frail siblings will soon be claimed by the light." "Unless we claim them first." The Witness knew that if he did not do something that Traveller would claim them and render them servants of the Light, so in an attempt to set them on a path away from the light and toward The Deep she betrayed the Osmium Court and set them on a path wherein their only way to survive would be to serve the Deep and then She wiped Sathona's memories of them having a choice between the light and the dark. The way that the Witness actually achieved this was through the use of the worm familiar, its that same white worm that Sathona can be seen holding in that aforementioned cutscene. It washed ashore and came into the possession of the Osmium King to which it would whisper about an oncoming calamity; A God Wave, these whispers would soon find their way into Sathona's ear and feed into her fear and pride, convincing her that the only thing lay in the sky was an impending cataclysm in an attempt to drive her away from the Traveller. Furthermore supplanting the idea that their only way out was to go deep within the oceans of Fundament, toward the Worms and conveniently away from the Traveller. The worm familiar would eventually lead them to ship that they could discern to not be of their world, that same ship would take them into depths of fundaments oceans.
Taox was a krill. The Witness, already a powerful being in service of Darkness for aeons, sent his disciple, Rhulk, himself already slaughtering for ages, to prevent the ascencion of the krill to lightbearers. They were coerced into serving the Worm Gods with Taox's agency, orchestrated by Rhulk. She is of no consequence here, and what you say does not add up. The Witness did not have to insert themselves as a krill to achieve this.
Byf I hope everything evens out smoothly and you come out unscathed I've been watching your content for a long time I will be a viewer till now to the end of d2, see you starside guardian
It's heavily implied the dominant flower pattern is the vex, they kept winning the game because they can simulate the universe perfectly, the gardener became a rule in the game which was paracausal light, the winower in response became paracausal dark, the reason the vex have so much trouble fighting us is because paracausal abilities violate the rules of the universe and they can't simulate it. The line that they became rules in the game would mean the winnower literally is the darkness in both force and entity, and vice versa for the gardener, which confuses me how they now say the witness is not the darkness but a being cloaked in it. This would lead me to believe that unveiling was lying about that part
Interesting addition, you can simulate the game of life in the game of life. The writers def used this as inspiration for the vex
The Winnower and the Witness are different things. I’d say entities, but I don’t think “the Winnower” was ever intended to imply actual consciousness. It’s the name given to the force itself. The Winnower is just a name for the Darkness itself. Like how some people say that “Lady Luck is on their side.” It’s a personification applied to it, not literal. It is possible there is a consciousness to both Light and Dark though. If we ever see the light and dark “speak” to us, I do wonder if they’ll be like talking to a sentient computer. Not sapient, just sentient. I get the impression they are more or less embodiments of life and death that follow certain innate rules that make them appear to have goals. I suspect that is why the guardians are “living dead,” but the hive are “the dead living.” I’ve noticed that despite being called “dead,” Guardians are shown to still act as living beings, whereas the hive have always been referred to as our counterpart, being dead creatures that survive for the purpose of causing death. We protect, they destroy, perfectly reflecting the concepts of light and dark, but with motive rather than just fundamental purpose like the light and dark. I would also agree that the Vex are a walking version of the Flower Game, and they are probably so closely tied to the Black Garden due to how analogous it is to the idea of endless possibility. They are the “old game” before paracausal power existed. I think Bungie was intending to say that even though they can technically travel time, they can’t do anything ultimately because they abide by rules that are analogous to the Flower Game. If they can travel time, it doesn’t matter when paracausal abilities technically nullify the idea of time anyway. Can’t simulate what’s outside of their “game”. I suspect that’s why they are a base life form in a metal shell. I don’t imagine they are actually the life forms mentioned in the game, given that the game had many forms of life, but rather they just show how Destiny’s universe functions. They are technically a perfect life form in the context of the flower game, but can only move along a linear path, and that’s not good enough now that the rules are different and light and dark break the flow of universal causality. They’d be unstoppable and dominant in a world that only works in a linear rule set. That’s probably why they worship the darkness but can’t really use it in any meaningful way. It’s a proof-of-concept that the Flower Game is no longer the game that matters. The meta game, the metanarrative, is the one that matters now.
Also, I wanted to add that it’s an extremely interesting point you made. I hadn’t ever fully considered that about the vex. I always thought of them as obsolete and barely a threat but I couldn’t pin down why I felt that way aside from them being clunky and never seeming to understand the game they are playing. Comparing them to the Flower Game makes perfect sense. They only know one way to do things and require all their pieces on the board, which is why they try to recover any Minds they lose by time traveling and getting them back. We’re playing 3D chess and they are still playing 2D checkers. They have one move, one type of piece, and the best they can do is reach the opposite side of the board and get a “King piece,” like Quria (I doubt that it’s something Bungie did on purpose, making their rules similar to checkers, but considering they mimicked the “Taken King’s” logic, the checkers analogy works oddly well).
This really makes you want to go back into Destiny 1 or even what Beyond Light had to talk about. Great stuff!
If it is the Winnower, then they got some splainin' to do. Per Unveiling:
"We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes."
It never speaks of the Winnower as an actual entity or being. It anthropomorphizes it, in the same way we say "Evolution decided that this species shouldn't survive" when Evolution is not a being.
So turning the Winnower into an actual being, if that's who this is, is a thumbs down from me. Significantly less interesting for it to be a living, breathing, killable entity.
I would say the witness is bound to the darkness as the guardians are bound to the light.
Just a very strong connection
Savathun did say the witness is just a user of dark, it is not the darkness . Much like the guardians are users of light not the gardeners
Byf went to the effort of NOT having a clip of the final cutscene on the thumbnail, unlike some youtubers.
Good job!
The Witch Queen has put Destiny on a whole other Level, I'm honestly in Awe. Bungie should be so so proud of this next Era of Destiny, this amount of Grandure is what Destiny should have always been. Just mind blowing revelations.
Have Dynasty running in the background while watching this vid hope it helps. I love your videos thank you for everything you and your team do for us.
There's something I've been wondering about for a while, and now that the Witness is revealed as it's own proper being, it makes me even more curious;
Can the Entity/(insert all other names) defeat itself? If it had its powers turned against it, or found itself in an empty universe devoid of all other life and so, I would assume, it would then petition itself for the right of existence, could it fail?
If it does defeat itself, then the Sword Logic is inherently contradictory and can't be true, and thus the universe was destroyed for no reason.
If it can't defeat itself, it being the most powerful Darkness wielder in existence with pretty much no equal and the fact it seems to be a proper player in the game, then it itself seems like a contender and most likely to be the Final Shape. In which case the whole idea of a species or other single being trying to become the Final Shape is a sort of deception on its part.
If the second option is true and it is that powerful, then why bother undermining the Guardians and break us apart if it could just stream roll everything? Unless working together actually could be a possible counter to it I suppose... like adding together all our strengths and covering each other's weaknesses...
The Darkness doesn't desire a universe with no life. It desires a self-sustaining universe, a singular pattern that just is and was whittled down from all other potential patterns. In fact, it even admits that both it and the Light don't know who is right in their line of thinking when it comes to the 'Flower Game'. At least, that's my understanding of the motives that the Darkness itself has.
@@Techhunter_Talon i think the Winnower is not the Witness. The Winnower has an idea and admits that neither him or the Traveller knows Who's right. The Witness looks like It believes firmly the Sword logic is true.
So, It might be the Witness is a Fanatic follower of the Sword logic, the top in the Sword logic pyramid. But not the Darkness itself
I thought about that last part you wrote about adding strength.I think is somewhat comfirmed that The Witness are several species or one species that came together (many names,many voices) .Then remembered about the Disciples of The Witness like Calus and Mara Sov.What do they have in common? I think is that same ability of coming together for example Mara and the techeuns can create a collective "mind/state?" , the same happens with the psions (innate duplication/conversion) and taken psions. Now imagine that the witness comes and helps Calus and Mara achieve the same form in exchange for their life .In my opinion the Witness is not the Final Shape but is really really close to it.I think what it lacks is us or not technically "us" but the light is some way to be able to destroy and create life in the universe as it pleases maybe following the pattern.
I already extensively wrote that above in an other comment, but I'd like to throw my hat in here: The Witness is a strong contender for the Final Shape, firmly applying sword logic to achieve it. But...there is another contender in plain sight: a being that overcame everything and everyone so far threatening its and their allies' existence.A resurrected human/exo/awoken, that unwittingly applies Sword Logic for years and years now, and is highly successful so far in that regard. As for the difference of the Witness eradicating entire galaxies of beings while this one mainly eliminates forces that come to end him (I could even argue that as it literally kills millions of beings for random local agendas)...makes no difference in the advance towards the Final Shape.
Watching Dynasty 3 times now 😅 best of luck. You're hard work is more than enough for us ❤️
The 'Witness' and the 'Winnower' are sort of the same, in the same way the that the very tip of an entire mountain range is still the mountain range. Even the physical design of the 'Witness' aligns with this, like an infinitely spanning entity pushing its finger through the veil to present a physical form.
Without shattering the universe, the 'Witness' is not an enemy that can be stopped by us.
Frankly, the Traveller could do with getting off it's bulbous arse and actually do something.
I’m surprised no one mentions the dust at it’s feet!
Great video! Will watch Dynasty a bunch this week for ya’ll 💖💖💖
Hey Byf I got a question. So on the first memory mission for Savathun she says that she stand before the witness. She says that "It is not Darkness, but something that wears it like a cloak. It gives Darkness a wicked shape." At this point we can assume that this is something she want to remember. Do you think that this is a lie? That the Darkness is using the Witness to enact its will. Awesome video BTW.
In the shadow keep cutscene it’s possible that the reflection of us is entirely the witness himself or a projection of them because of the body language, specifically the folded hands
More lore, YAY
Sucks about the strike man. Great videos man I'm a long time follower of your content.
I don't think the Witness is the same as the Darkness or the Deep. I think, according all the dialogue and lore we have so far, and as many pointed out, the Witness seems to be the ultimate master of the force, but is not synonymous with it. At this point it seems the Witness and the Traveler are at direct odds with one another, and we have to ask if the Unveiling lore book is talking about the Gardener and the Winnower in terms of Light and Dark, or more likely it's talking about the Traveler and the Witness, and the book is meant to be taken as a metaphorical retelling of the conflict as opposed to the literal cosmology and mythos of Light and Dark. I think we have been conflating the entities that control the paracausal forces to the paracausal forces themselves, just like the in universe characters, or at least some of them.
I'm open to be wrong, and other interpretations, of course. But this is what makes the most sense to me.
I don’t know if it’s exactly the WITNESS being at odds with the traveler, rather I do still think it’s just dark vs light, traveler vs pyramids, but the difference being that the witness is the being that has been “blessed” by the darkness to effectively lead its campaign against the light and/or the traveler, while the traveler just keeps searching for its version of the witness to protect itself from the darkness/pyramid ships. I dunno though maybe I’m forgetting something important. It’s late.
The values expressed through the darkness and its many vassals are of the witness/winnower/voice in the darkness/the black edge. Its just that the darkness is like a sword, you don’t condemn the sword for killing you judge the knight wielding the sword. But the sword is inseparable from the knight unless something happens to either the sword or the knight who commands it.
Love ya Byf, commenting for the algorithm. Thanks for another great video!
I think if they add a new darkness enemy they should definitely be called “The formless”
If datamining is to be believed and Bungie stays consistent then they’re called the Veil
Dear byf and all who helped create it dynasty was amazing n il share it as much as possible it was so good! ❤️
What if the flower game is just a metaphore for the cycle of The Traveler choosing a planet and blessing it like with the Eliksni (seeding life/blessing life), following by The Darkness coming like in The Whirlwind and The Collapse (cut away the grain from the chaff).
The new rules the traveler added might as well just be Guardians.
I wonder what are the implications of this if true.
but, if the cards are to be believed, time and space as we know it was created after the first rounds of the flower game.
@@gackolpz and this round of the game is (Gardener) Traveler/Light vs (Winnower) The Witness (Winnower) The Witness is to the Darkness as the Traveler is to the Light. The Traveler has used various species before creating Guardians and The Witness has used Oryx, Savathun etc.
The Flower Game is over. We are not in any iteration of the Flower Game. The instant the Gardener and the Winnower entered the Game, and fought, it became a different game, with different rules. This all happened at the literal dawn of time. There has never been any time in our universe where the Flower Game was played.
Just want to say I appreciate you making two diffenent thumbnails for this to avoid revealing things too early.