Erratic Idle-Rough Shift case study: Dodge Truck
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- What a curious little case study we have here!
The customer brought his rusty 2002 Dodge Dakota over for a transmission problem...harsh shifts intermittently.
Does it need a new transmission?
Wait a second....just put down the parts cannon and step back from the truck!
The solution turns out to be quite unexpected :)
Enjoy!
Ivan
I find those types of repair the most fun. No parts, less cost, happy customer, everybody wins. Including us. We learned a few great tips on this one (plus we got to see your beautiful wife again). She's always smiling! Great video Ivan.
wyattoneable Some guys have all the luck.
Tell your wife you were "Justifying" your diagnosis. I agree with her , it's awesome to see a horse win a triple crown. Another great diagnosis Ivan!
HAHAHA brilliant!! xD
Super job with that one Ivan.....oh yeah and nice car fix too!!!!
Posting this @ 2.15... I can remember years ago when I was wrenching... I had a Stratus 4spd auto that had all manner of transmission problems... in and out of limp mode.. shifting gears without reason... turned out to be the alternator... bad brushes... voltage all over... .. it was driving the computers nuts !! As always.. you're a genius..
Logical diagnosis of the problem.
You could have stopped the video when you confirmed that the TPS was the problem, but you didn't. You followed the trail of clues all the way to the end and found that the problem was caused by a connector. I admire that persistence and honesty.
I loooove fixes like this! No trips to the parts store in maddening traffic - much better for my state of mind. Less tools get tossed. 😁 Plus, I get the vehicle done and outta here 10x faster. 👍
Great vid as usual, Ivan! Always love going through the diag with you. 👍👍
6:38 creepy as all heck. Sitting out in the driveway at night and hear laughter coming from the middle of nowhere. Daaaaaang!
Nice diagnosis Ivan & absolutely right on don't start disconnecting until you've gathered your data and analyzed it. 5V circuits don't like fretting and Deoxit5 & Stabilant22 are great at enhancing contacts. A lot of time it is the TPS at idle where it wears a spot. SRS connectors are extremely touchy about fretting. Great video Ivan and you saved the customer some $$. Just had a P0118 for CTS voltage high and could not duplicate it but 5V ref & grd were good and bypass test PCM read 305 degrees. R&R'd CTS but so I could be sure I got out the pot of water on the stove and DVOM and checked the resistance all the way to 220 degrees and it never faltered until it started cooling down after several cycles it would hit @176 degrees 370 ohms and then go OL open...now I know it's fixed and customer can have their car back with confidence knowing it's fixed.
I use heat gun/hair dryer and compressed air for "on car" heat stress testing, just be careful you don't burn things :))
Hi Bob! To me it definitely looked like a TPS issue at first! I even ordered the damn part lol! The follow-up data surprised me...there is no way the sensor internals could have magically fixed themselves so nicely ;) I guess replacing it would have fixed the problem as well, as the connection would have been restored just by the act of unplugging it and plugging back in haha
You made the tough call of going with your gut and saved your customer some $$..I'd have done the same thing. You have to laugh at some of the things that happen due to fretting. Always enjoy watching your videos!!
Hayward's Automotive g
2 things. My first TPS problem with throttle body injection was with a 1990 Dodge B3500 Van with a 5.9L V8. I watched the "ratcheting" Idle Speed Control motor move back and forth both KOEO and KOER. Barely touch the throttle, problem stops. Carefully move the throttle and release. Sometimes problem came back. New Mopar TPS fixed it. The second one was a good one. GMC 3500 VAN with a 5.7L V8. Throttle Body Injection.
The old push throttle down in gear, intermittent flat spot. While the DMM was showing idle TPS voltage, about .65 volts, the Tech 2 TPS reading went up from .65 to over 1.0 volt! No problems with the 5 volt, ground, or signal wires or connections or values! Replaced PCM, no more problem!
Ivan when you back probed the connector all the little GREMLINS went running. Every fix should be that simple. Good one 👍
Great Job Ivan looks like your keeping yourself really busy. Thanks for the great videos
Nice Camio by the wife ! You should envite Eric O up for some case study the PHAD way. Then a little Car talk around the camp fire , Ivin and Eric O camp fire talk, Priceless !!
I think cleaning the throttle body was the fix I have had so many do that to me by just cleaning it and not touching the wiring the carbon can make the throttle plate do some funny things
Dale Gibson But you forget the trans shifting you must keep in mind all the Clue's and sysmtems.
Rare to see such clear results from a contact cleaning. Sweet diag and fix Ivan. Thanks!
My first vehicle was a V8 Dakota. Man I miss that truck! Great vid, Ivan!
Great diagnostic video Ivan you would have loved it back in my day when mechanics would repair parts instead of replacing.Keep them videos coming Ivan till next time PEACE.
Great Job Ivan, I'm going to try these test procedures on my '86 Mustang GT, it surges at idle between 650 - 800 RPMs after warm up. Been trying to confirm if its the IAC, MAP, ECT or possibly a fuel issue, but now will concentrate on the TPS both loaded and loaded, Thanks again Ivan !!
Great case study! Before and after data to confirm fix. Thanks for bringing us along!
That was to easy. You didn't even have to struggle to get access to the TPS. Easy gravy there Ivan!
Haha easiest sensor to get to!
That was fun! Well done Ivan. Amanda is hilarious and I get just as excited as her when Ireland wins the triple crown in rugby ;)
Ivan, love this vid!!! Perfect train of thought and timeline. I am digging it!! Plus the end of the vid, like a recap. That's great to explain and offer thoughts or tips. I love it. Great job, Ivan! 👍👍👍👍 many, many thumbs up from me :)
Thanks for the positivity and excitement, Josh!! I appreciate your support!
I always enjoy your content but this video helped me out tremendously. I own a 2001 Dakota 4.7 and I've Been chasing this same problem for 2 years off and on. Thank you
Great video as always Ivan, as soon as you knew what sensor was behind the issue, I would unplug it have a look and try plugging it back in, oxidation in this part of the country is to be expected,
I do allot with the 4.7 and the TPS is a common thing. Good job troubleshooting.
About 8 or 10 years ago GM (haven’t checked Chrysler vehicles) recommended in a TSB that all connections that could possibly develop friable corrosion, i.e. every connection in the engine compartment and under the dash, etc., should be checked, cleaned if possible without damaging any terminals, and coated with dielectric grease. I believe the TSB was PIT5062B, or something similar, but the idea was that this type of corrosion was hard to see, developed over time from vibration, played havoc with low voltage electrical connections when it developed, and was the source of a large variety of odd intermittent problems . It has only gotten worse as electronics have proliferated. Good call on this one. Sorry you missed the triple crown winner’s performance.
Actually I did see the race live, but missed the afterparty ;)
Always interesting video Thanks for your time
Great work Ivan!
great use of scope and scan thanks Ivan
Had a Saturn s-series that was real doggy, weird shift points and rpm's were all over. Found the TPS sensor was bad. Replaced it and all good. I believe someone previously had the cylinder head off and did a no no of soaking it in a solvent tank or something.
A lot of vibration on that connector on top of the engine. I like to give the flat pins a very slight twist which gives them a springy contact with the socket.
No codes are the fun ones! Right Ivan?😁💪👍
Yup, you have to use your brain scanner to figure those out ;)
I knew a guy who had a 1988 Dakota. He took the stock drivetrain out and put a slightly tuned up 360 in it, stronger transmission, and a posi rear end. He used it as a daily driver and put some serious miles on it but when he got on it hard, that thing hauled some ass!
That truck has over 100K miles on it, plus 16 years old. I would have changed out the TPS sensor anyway. My bet is that the owner will want the TPS sensor replaced anyway. Just my two cents. I love watching your videos, Thank you!
When you were pushing wiggling and tapping the cable I thought you'd pull it and squirt the pins but you didn't. Happy Summer and hi to Amanda.
Nice Ivan you are a great teacher thank you and take care...😀😀😀
Thank you Ivan. Good job. Appreciate your videos.
So Ivan, what do you think about your observation that the erratic signal was observed only at the lower end of the TPS range? Because if it was a bad connection on one of the three wires, surely that would affect the signal throughout the range. Of course, if it was the ground that was intermittent, it would affect the low end of the range more, but not exclusively. The symptoms looked to me more like the low end of the TPS potentiometer track was dirty. But I'm not sure why that problem would magically resolved.
Great question, Graham! I think the poor connection was much harder to notice at larger throttle openings because it's hard to hold the throttle at a fixed partial position, and also the ground has more current flowing through it at a smaller throttle opening, which is when the poor connection rears its ugly head :)
BAH! I think when you were a tappin' on the TPS you dislodged a piece of dirt on the needle and seat for the float. THAT'S what made it start a runnin' more better.
Thanks for sharing Ivan.
Lol
It acts up after you hit the gas Tps needs a good checking out.
Very nice. The Pico was so erratic and all over the place it didn't seem very helpful. The processed data that the computer was reporting to the scan tool seemed more helpful. Even with engine off and no interference the Pico was very averagy (new word). The Verus was your friend. That was Justified! Get it?
Bill Rimmer This is where experience comes in. Because Ivan knows what he is looking at (the DC level within all that), he is doing the filtering in his head.
To avoid all those noise spikes, the scope ground could have been moved to sensor ground instead of the battery ground once the sensor ground had been verified.
With two backprobes in that TPS connector for signal and ground, the signal would have looked really clean.
Bill Rimmer I agree Bill. The pico had way too much noise. Not sure what Ivan did.
Yea Simon, I thought that's what Scanner Danner preached, when you have too much noise, use sensor ground.
"All the farts your car will ever need, Schlock Auto!"
Dr Ivan..you’re the best brotha 💥💥👍
like scannerdanner says , use you sensor ground when you use your scope to avoid noise
Good diagnosis, but tapping the TPS impacting the signal should have been the clue to pause and check the connectors prior to replacing any sensor. While in this case, I do not believe the throttle plate was being held open by build up, it easily can.
Great skills, great information, Thank you!
After you cleaned the terminals Ivan what did the scope capture look like then? Did you try putting your scope ground on the Tps ground to see if their was any difference?
I had a Ford-engined car (Cologne V6 2.9) which was prone to TPS problems. Ford changed the wiring connectors to gold, probably due to corrosion issues.
have removed the metal bolt liner and adjusted them before there is a utube video out there somewhere about making them adjustable
great video
Thanks Iván ☺🔧👏👏
Thanks Ivan good job battery no good I got it thank you
My Toyota Corolla has a slight rough idle. Checked everything except for TPS connector. Maybe this is my problem too? I will give it a shot.
Yesiree Ivan, good fix. Whats your regular job, engineer? More proof electrical systems in vehicles are not designed well enough. Seems they self destruct more often than most anything else. Corrosion and the electrolysis develops within itself without any fault on the owners maintenance responsibilities. When will the auto makers get it that sometimes these issues can be life hazards !
I suspected the wire connection after it changed when you tapped it.
Keep us updated on how long it stays fixed.
If it comes back I will do a Part 2!
Nice. Video. Good diagnostic.
My guess is just removing the sensor loosened up a carbon track on the potentiometer. It may return later, but for now run it.
DeOx it My first go to with any electrical issues.
Well done, Ivan but i think that truck will be back to haunt you.
I hope it will! I really want to get to the root cause of that problem :)
Your better half is such a sweet girl your a lucky guy Ivan.
Hey Ivan what was that spray that you used on the connector? Is it an electronics cleaner? Can I purchase that from Auto parts store? Thanks
good morning ivan if a connector connection i think at higher values it would do the same as lower i have the same truck in the shop now doing the same thing i will look into that thanks!
same thing happened with a 2008 grand caravan EGR. the connector just needed a nudge lol seems to be a thing with dodge
Thxs Ivan very formatted ,what's the spray? nice vid.
It's the same with my moms Volvo S40 trunk switch. Every 2-3 years i have to take it apart, unplug and plug and bob's your uncle for the next 2-3 years until it stops working again. Probably some salt "fumes" or something that manages to form some oxide layer on terminals.
great video, hey Ivan do you think they will ever invent the perfect electrical plug for cars
Great job.
I wonder where do you get the parameters of every sensor if you dont have a super scanner like his. Can someone help me?
Interesting , at first I also expected the TPS was bad. These trucks are known for having TPS problems (Own a 94 with a Magnum V6 myself and had to change my sensor which in my case fixed it , though it also threw the check engine light. My sensor also appeared physically damaged where the plastic tab goes into the sensor.) Good to see that in this trucks case it was a simple pin fitment issue! It'll also have me checking to see if my own truck reacts to jiggling the connector should it ever happen in the future.
(Yeah deleted my old comment as I realized it was worded quite poorly , and as ya said , not such a classic case)
Ah please don't delete comments! There are no mistakes, just learning opportunities and good discussions ;)
yeah I realized it was a dumb idea when I did it , tired me is not the smartest person xD
Fretting on the contacts doesn't seem like it explains the behavior when you held but didn't press the throttle pedal. But perhaps it was some smoo on the wiper inside that was dislodged when you took off the TPS?
Perhaps...I still have some doubts too.
You definitely married out of your league sir Ivan lol
Hey, she's the one who chose me haha :))))
I imagine hes 'easy'.
SGDeGalvez With a girl like that wouldn't you be?
damm right!!
i thought he lived with his mum
Hello Ivan, following you now after watching your videos about the Odyssey situation, you definitely know what you doing, BTW, great job. I have Odyssey 2007 with misfire situation that unfortunately no mechanic in my area seen to know how to fix. New coils, spark plugs, oxygen sensor, totally lost here, car has 206+ thousand miles. Help please. Thank you. I can bring the car to you if it were possible.
Well it's either compression or fuel...easy diag.
Did you remeasure the waveform of the three pins? I wonder the wave might look less noisy?
Due to the age of the vehicle, it'd be a good idea to replace the cam position sensor. The O-seal degrades over time and the sensor fouls out with oil. The truck will experience symptoms such as hard-starting, bad idle, misfires, mis-timed shifting and shutting off while driving. It's...it's a Chrysler thing.
999thenewman over here in Australia the phrase goes... It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand! 🤣
i think would could call this one "Dodgy Idle". :)
The truck complain is the idle is surging. You took the TPS sensor out and you clean the Throttle body out. That’s why the truck is not surging anymore . That’s what I 🤔
Chrysler and there throttle/ tps connectors there’s a tsb about these
I'm a shadetree mechanic but I would have replaced the TPS anyway.
Come on Ivan. Cleaning the throttle body most likely fixed the loopy idle problem. Cleaning the contacts most likely did no harm. Either way, a guy named Ivan fixed the problem.
What makes an ordinary repair different from a "case study"?
I don't order from RO anymore to hard to do a return
I saw an experienced tech that I used to work with cleaning the throttle body after he changed the battery on a dodge truck. He told me that anytime you swap out a battery on a dodge that you must clean the throttle body so the truck doesn’t act funny. I’m assuming this is why!
Very interesting Ivan.
Do you think cleaning the throttle plate had any influence in the fix ?.
Great video.
I would say so its 99% the dirt was the problem and not the contact point of the wire and thats why the tps minimum cot even lower. But cant be 100% as he did both same time. + removed the tps totaly from the tp...
Great question, and I'm actually glad I cleaned the thottle plate to unintentionally throw a little variable in the mix. HOWEVER, a dirty throttle plate would NOT explain a TPS reading that was jumping up and down by 0.2V even with the truck off. We HAVE to trust our data!!
Dirt isnt as solid as metal + If it was contact point(wire) it would have dont that to the hole sweep.
If you arent talking contactpoints inside the sensor, that you didnt tuch, manually and then you should see that same fail at 0.63v next time...
Those tps have to be installed a “certain” way, I’m sure you fixed someone else’s mistake
Thanks for the vid
My pleasure, Abdul! Thanks for watching :)
My dodge has fixed its-self before also.🔧
Low tech approach wins out. Can now use the truck to pull the horse box to the next venue and see Justify win his next G1 race.
Coincidence. Just watch Eric O deal with this part. :)
Believe it or not they used to stuff even larger engines in these Dakotas, the big 5.2L (318)
Ryan T also the 5.9 360 in the rt
Same physical size I guess
The truck only needed little love and care, lol
I possibly wrongly see the tps sensor as a potential divider, i did think about the earth, but we always blame the poor earth LOL :-D
A small question: My neighbours little diesel car sometimes ignores the throttle peddle the second it's started, turn it off then restart it and it's fine.
I thought as it's fly by wire, is it possible that the throttle body control actuator is sticky or a very dirty butterfly mechanism playing up?
Just thinking about possibles :-D
I would plug in a scanner and see what the computer thinks when you press the throttle ;)
The TPS is a potential divider, you are correct.
With regard to your neighbour's car, you need to be looking at the accelerator pedal position sensor.
Usually 6 wires, as there are 2 potentiometers which must give readings in sync with each other.
Many have one half working 0-5V, the other half 0-2.5V.
If out of sync, a fault such as "APPS 1-2 Correlation" will be logged.
Sounds like a poor connection rather than faulty sensor if the car does not lose throttle response at any time when driving.
You need to see the scan data pids for voltage and percentage of both APPS potentiometers in that cold start situation.
Simon Parkinson, Thankyou for your reply, this is all information i knew nothing about.
I can do a bit of research on failures of the twin sensors, it could be a common problem with that model.
Two digital multimeters in ohms mode could show both sensors at the same time, that could be helpful.
I'm not into cars, but i am into electronics :-D
Maybe it was the dirty throttle body.
I'm having a really bad time with noise on my 4425, to the point I'm about to raffle it off, Pico had it back and no fault found. It's too sensitive to environmental influence to be used to it's full potential = sad wiggly line jockey.
Simply Diagnostics keep it away from your mouth Steve!!! 🤣
lol :)
verus is the go to stevie!! i was struggling to understand the pico here with all the noise also, ive definitly seen better videos with it from ivan before with no issues like this!, also with eric o and danner using it with much cleaner signal.
I never had this issue with my old Pico, but I'm sad to say I'm not impressed with this generation of scope / leads. I've had #Picoflu for 10 years but it may be time to let go.
Simply Diagnostics Now I know why your using the GTMO scope.
I had the same problem and code with my 4.7. It ended up being the injectors
Wow....interesting.
The basic problem is it's a Dodge designed by guys who, proven on video, get drunk nearly everyday at lunch. Dodge, Jeep, Chrysler, and now FCA, vehicles are easily the most poorly designed vehicles in the USA. What other modern vehicles have cam followers that fall off, drop valves into cylinders, have $1000 TIPM modules that cause catastrophic failures and fail so often they have two month back order for replacements, have shifters so poorly designed your vehicle might run over and kill you ( yes that's happened), have oil pressure gauges that read normal when the real oil pressure is only 5 psi and the engine is self destructing, get their parts made in China, and the list goes on, and on, and on. As Eric O at South Main Auto says "they're junk".
Great video Ivan. Cant help noticing that at 25:26 you look like Dave Bowman here:
th-cam.com/video/ARJ8cAGm6JE/w-d-xo.html
You: 'Whats the problem?'
Dakota: 'I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do - you have a bad connection at the TPS sensor...'
BTW - great final advice (regards to Keith)
God bless
Paul
Well, I learned what Horse Won The Triple Crown. Bunch of Hay Burners, Giddy Up, Yea Haw.
Little dielec grease on that bad boy
2002 Dodge Duck ;))
That’s throttle body looks super dirty