Yes! What you are calling glazing is what I learned as the whole FP process, from the beginning. Minimal shellac, let the alcohol melt and smooth the surface. Great work! And you're right, ask 10 people, you get 10 different processes. Learn from the folks with decades of regular practice & experience. Not from the weekend warriors that like like to teach on TH-cam what they learned yesterday.
I've watched every minute so far. All your amazing work is paying off. You are so patient and skillful. Looking forward to watching the rest of this series . :)
Beautiful work. One thing I find really fascinating is that I have 2 Markneukirchen-made instruments, which have not been restored and retain most of their original characteristics, and neither of them has a very thick finish. So it is interesting to see a full French polish go on one.
Don't know if this bit of knowledge helps but boiled linseed oil has been a popular finishing oil since from around when this guitar was made. I do know that Samuel Colt used linseed oil to finish the grips of his revolvers and got a very nice finish. It polymerizes but take a long time to do so I believe I heard it takes about 1 month to fully dry. Tung oil is also a great finish the problem using it is you will usually find Formsby Tung oil but it is not pure tung oil as they include shellac and solvents to make the oil dry faster. Now I have finished a wide variety of woods and as far as getting a mirror finish I always approach it the same way as it always has yielded the best results. I get the wood down to the bare wood with sanding, I stain the wood if I desire or leave it if I like the grain. If I decide to stain it I will usually run black stain over it first and then lightly sand it back so the only black left on the wood is embedded in the grain. This makes the grain more pronounced and can really bring out the beauty of wood. Then I hand rub oil on, let it sit for 15 then wipe more on, then let it sit for 15, and I continue this process until I start seeing it build up on the surface of the wood. The reason for so many applications is because bare wood will really drink oil. When it starts to not suck into the wood then you know every application afterwards will be the actual finish you are seeing. I then lightly sand with 1500 grit sand paper, clean with mineral spirits as it does not dissolve the finish but it can be used to thin finishing oils. Then after all that I give it the first application of oil that will be the top finish wait a day for it to harden enough to sand again with 1500 grit keep repeating the process until you get around 5 to 8 coats. After I get the build up where I want it I let it sit for around a week and start lightly wet sanding from 2000 grit then to 2500 then to 3000 and finally 5000. Then I apply one last coat over the wood that I do as quick as I can and will never go back over and area I had already touched with the oil. This allows for what is known as a wet coat and can be applied with a lot more oil in the applicator as you are simply trying to get that high end wet mirror shine. I know it seems excessive but it really does produce an extremely pleasing shine that is usually unmatched in a mass produced guitar even if the guitar was built years ago if it was a production guitar then it will have imperfections and not produce as great of a finish as this method produces. It does take a long time but it is worth it in the end. Oh and I usually wait 1 month for the oil to become fully hardened before finally waxing and buffing it. Hope that helps some.
That would be a good finishing technique for just about everything except instruments, on guitars, violins, mandolins etc. You 100% do not want any oils soaking into the wood. Oil soaking into the wood will deaden the sound substantially. You want a hard shell directly over the wood with as minimal penetration as possible. That's why she started with single layers of thicker shellac. Only further on in the process would you introduce any oils as to ensure no oils get down into the wood. And more serves as a lubricant for setting the shellac surface with alcohol into a flat smooth shiny surface. Oil directly applied to a bare guitar top would be a catastrophic disaster imho.
That is looking good. I think it's best to leave the neck as it is. It looks decent enough and is better to play than a new, smooth surface. Smooth is sticky.
It looks very clear and clean. How much further are you going to go. I would think a vintage instrument such as this, you wouldn't want it too glossy. Just me but I think it looks fantastic. Perry
So with all the different techniques you've researched and described, how do you think it was done 100 years ago? I'm really impressed at how this guitar is looking, and I'm wondering if in some ways, it is going to look better than it did when it was new!
Susan can you make a video on all the tools and safety equipment you use tools Manley looking at power tools so a workshop tour if you like
8 ปีที่แล้ว
Man, she sure has purely hips. And your clamp shows them off so well. I hope you've done something to protect it. You must give us an update some time when you don't have several build/video series on the go.
There seems to be quite a bit of movement of the guitar while it's in the neck vise. Would some additional neck support closer to the body be of value? Thinking about stressing the neck/body joint.
This is the first guitar I'm aware of that has brass frets. It seemed to be moving enough to make me feel nervous about it. The gentleman who was writing about firmer pressure may relate to furniture rather than delicate antique guitars. Thanks for continuing to answer my nagging concerns. I hope my writing isn't becoming a(n Eric) burden.
Hi, could you tell me how you rate the Triton Router you have as I'm thinking of getting one. May I say what an excellent job you seem to be making of the guitar, am looking forward to hearing you play it.
+Jack Tar The Triton router is excellent. My only small criticism is that the half inch collet is an optional extra - it comes with a quarter inch collet and 8mm (I've never seen an 8mm router bit!). Guide bushings are extras too, so you might end up paying more money than competitors who include these things as standard. I also wonder if it's a bit large for delicate operations like routing guitar binding channels. I'm considering getting a smaller router that's easier to mount in a jig.
The tiny pits on the back you spoke of filing them in. Did you mean level with the surface of the back? You mentioned that you're not trying to come to a mirror level finish but rather leave some of the honest wear of the instrument. I'm wondering how deep the pits you think might be. Even if they are ≈ .010" and with barely any depth of shellac, oil and alcohol, leveling the pits might take several more coats.
+Pádraig Floyd The frets are low but I think they're salvageable. They're brass so may be good for steel as I believe brass is harder than modern nickel frets.
8 ปีที่แล้ว
Given how old they are, I am sure they would be higher quality metal even if they were made of tin.
Interesting comments at the beginning. Most 'wisdom' comes from amateurs and those who are self taught. I am still confused as to why you think you have some final process of adding to do. There really is only three stages to FP - Filling, bodying and spiriting off. The final processes are about integrating the earlier processes to homogenise the 'film' of polish and removing the oil. In the very final stage of spiriting off you are burnishing - what could be seen as a 4th step. We were taught to put a spot of oil on the ball of the thumb then to kiss the toe and heel of the 'rubber' as the called it in Sheffield on this. All the best. I suspect you are still al long way off. PM me for contact who used to sub-contract his FP skills to guitar makers at pete@petehowlettukulele.com. He may be able to give you further insights to help you on this and you future projects.
By your description you appear not to have enough finish on the front but hey, I haven't seen the instrument IRL. American guitar makers seem to default to spray finishing techniques at this point and flat out the finish with subsequent finer grit paper and then polish - see Les Stansell's video on it. I'd certainly leave the finish to harden before any 'final' process. We get our water clear lacquer finishes by cutting back the final coat the day after spraying and then leaving it for 10 days before any more finishing processes... Problem with FP is it is not a 'hard' curing finish so resorting to using polishing creams has to be done by hand and not polishing mop as we do on our nitro finishes...
+Pete Howlett don't forget this is a vintage guitar restoration - I don't have the option of using lacquer, and I'm not actually looking for a modern glass finish - I don't mind little imperfections if they are pointing back to the history of the guitar. Having said that, I do have a beautifully glossy finish.
8 ปีที่แล้ว
Just like everything else. Put four economists/luthiers/beekeepers in the same room and you will get six opinions (minimum).
Yes! What you are calling glazing is what I learned as the whole FP process, from the beginning. Minimal shellac, let the alcohol melt and smooth the surface. Great work!
And you're right, ask 10 people, you get 10 different processes. Learn from the folks with decades of regular practice & experience. Not from the weekend warriors that like like to teach on TH-cam what they learned yesterday.
I've watched every minute so far. All your amazing work is paying off. You are so patient and skillful. Looking forward to watching the rest of this series . :)
Beautiful work. One thing I find really fascinating is that I have 2 Markneukirchen-made instruments, which have not been restored and retain most of their original characteristics, and neither of them has a very thick finish. So it is interesting to see a full French polish go on one.
Don't know if this bit of knowledge helps but boiled linseed oil has been a popular finishing oil since from around when this guitar was made.
I do know that Samuel Colt used linseed oil to finish the grips of his revolvers and got a very nice finish. It polymerizes but take a long time to do so I believe I heard it takes about 1 month to fully dry. Tung oil is also a great finish the problem using it is you will usually find Formsby Tung oil but it is not pure tung oil as they include shellac and solvents to make the oil dry faster.
Now I have finished a wide variety of woods and as far as getting a mirror finish I always approach it the same way as it always has yielded the best results. I get the wood down to the bare wood with sanding, I stain the wood if I desire or leave it if I like the grain. If I decide to stain it I will usually run black stain over it first and then lightly sand it back so the only black left on the wood is embedded in the grain. This makes the grain more pronounced and can really bring out the beauty of wood. Then I hand rub oil on, let it sit for 15 then wipe more on, then let it sit for 15, and I continue this process until I start seeing it build up on the surface of the wood. The reason for so many applications is because bare wood will really drink oil. When it starts to not suck into the wood then you know every application afterwards will be the actual finish you are seeing. I then lightly sand with 1500 grit sand paper, clean with mineral spirits as it does not dissolve the finish but it can be used to thin finishing oils. Then after all that I give it the first application of oil that will be the top finish wait a day for it to harden enough to sand again with 1500 grit keep repeating the process until you get around 5 to 8 coats. After I get the build up where I want it I let it sit for around a week and start lightly wet sanding from 2000 grit then to 2500 then to 3000 and finally 5000. Then I apply one last coat over the wood that I do as quick as I can and will never go back over and area I had already touched with the oil. This allows for what is known as a wet coat and can be applied with a lot more oil in the applicator as you are simply trying to get that high end wet mirror shine.
I know it seems excessive but it really does produce an extremely pleasing shine that is usually unmatched in a mass produced guitar even if the guitar was built years ago if it was a production guitar then it will have imperfections and not produce as great of a finish as this method produces. It does take a long time but it is worth it in the end.
Oh and I usually wait 1 month for the oil to become fully hardened before finally waxing and buffing it.
Hope that helps some.
That would be a good finishing technique for just about everything except instruments, on guitars, violins, mandolins etc. You 100% do not want any oils soaking into the wood. Oil soaking into the wood will deaden the sound substantially. You want a hard shell directly over the wood with as minimal penetration as possible. That's why she started with single layers of thicker shellac. Only further on in the process would you introduce any oils as to ensure no oils get down into the wood. And more serves as a lubricant for setting the shellac surface with alcohol into a flat smooth shiny surface. Oil directly applied to a bare guitar top would be a catastrophic disaster imho.
Can't wait to hear this old relic in action.
Man! That guitar is beautiful.
It looks like you've achieved a really shiny finish now.
That is looking good. I think it's best to leave the neck as it is. It looks decent enough and is better to play than a new, smooth surface. Smooth is sticky.
It looks very clear and clean. How much further are you going to go. I would think a vintage instrument such as this, you wouldn't want it too glossy.
Just me but I think it looks fantastic. Perry
You my friend are a star. Since the first time I watched you one word stood out, articulate :)
another word comes to mind, "Appreciate" :)
So with all the different techniques you've researched and described, how do you think it was done 100 years ago? I'm really impressed at how this guitar is looking, and I'm wondering if in some ways, it is going to look better than it did when it was new!
Susan can you make a video on all the tools and safety equipment you use tools Manley looking at power tools so a workshop tour if you like
Man, she sure has purely hips. And your clamp shows them off so well. I hope you've done something to protect it. You must give us an update some time when you don't have several build/video series on the go.
Purdy. Bloody iPad thinking it knows best again.
There seems to be quite a bit of movement of the guitar while it's in the neck vise. Would some additional neck support closer to the body be of value? Thinking about stressing the neck/body joint.
+Sysiphistication I was aware of not tightening it too much so I didn't disturb the frets
This is the first guitar I'm aware of that has brass frets. It seemed to be moving enough to make me feel nervous about it. The gentleman who was writing about firmer pressure may relate to furniture rather than delicate antique guitars.
Thanks for continuing to answer my nagging concerns. I hope my writing isn't becoming a(n Eric) burden.
please show part 37 +++
go on susie, greetings from Mexico
Hi, could you tell me how you rate the Triton Router you have as I'm thinking of getting one. May I say what an excellent job you seem to be making of the guitar, am looking forward to hearing you play it.
+Jack Tar The Triton router is excellent. My only small criticism is that the half inch collet is an optional extra - it comes with a quarter inch collet and 8mm (I've never seen an 8mm router bit!). Guide bushings are extras too, so you might end up paying more money than competitors who include these things as standard. I also wonder if it's a bit large for delicate operations like routing guitar binding channels. I'm considering getting a smaller router that's easier to mount in a jig.
Susan try a trim router . they are small.
The tiny pits on the back you spoke of filing them in. Did you mean level with the surface of the back? You mentioned that you're not trying to come to a mirror level finish but rather leave some of the honest wear of the instrument. I'm wondering how deep the pits you think might be. Even if they are ≈ .010" and with barely any depth of shellac, oil and alcohol, leveling the pits might take several more coats.
+Sysiphistication the pits mostly filled in, but are still visible - that's fine - it's a 120 year old guitar
It's honest wear, it's the instrument's history and part of its uniqueness.
Eurgh, that fretboard is ikky. The first thing I would have done after de-stringing would have been a good clean up!
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that pitting in the finish is due to cross- contamination from the crud on there.
good work! How much will cost the parlor $10,000.
+LUIS C. MUNIZ if you pay me $10,000 you can have it :-)
Are those frets OK, Susie, so you'll dress them, or do you intend to refret given your intention to string with steel?
+Pádraig Floyd The frets are low but I think they're salvageable. They're brass so may be good for steel as I believe brass is harder than modern nickel frets.
Given how old they are, I am sure they would be higher quality metal even if they were made of tin.
carnouba wax would help for glazing
How long did you wait after your previous session before doing the glazing?
+Scott Reeves I think it was 2 weeks
I lost the number of shelac hands...lololo
Interesting comments at the beginning. Most 'wisdom' comes from amateurs and those who are self taught. I am still confused as to why you think you have some final process of adding to do. There really is only three stages to FP - Filling, bodying and spiriting off. The final processes are about integrating the earlier processes to homogenise the 'film' of polish and removing the oil. In the very final stage of spiriting off you are burnishing - what could be seen as a 4th step. We were taught to put a spot of oil on the ball of the thumb then to kiss the toe and heel of the 'rubber' as the called it in Sheffield on this. All the best. I suspect you are still al long way off. PM me for contact who used to sub-contract his FP skills to guitar makers at pete@petehowlettukulele.com. He may be able to give you further insights to help you on this and you future projects.
+Pete Howlett why do you think I'm still a long way off?
By your description you appear not to have enough finish on the front but hey, I haven't seen the instrument IRL. American guitar makers seem to default to spray finishing techniques at this point and flat out the finish with subsequent finer grit paper and then polish - see Les Stansell's video on it. I'd certainly leave the finish to harden before any 'final' process. We get our water clear lacquer finishes by cutting back the final coat the day after spraying and then leaving it for 10 days before any more finishing processes... Problem with FP is it is not a 'hard' curing finish so resorting to using polishing creams has to be done by hand and not polishing mop as we do on our nitro finishes...
+Pete Howlett don't forget this is a vintage guitar restoration - I don't have the option of using lacquer, and I'm not actually looking for a modern glass finish - I don't mind little imperfections if they are pointing back to the history of the guitar. Having said that, I do have a beautifully glossy finish.
Just like everything else. Put four economists/luthiers/beekeepers in the same room and you will get six opinions (minimum).
+Pádraig Floyd I find beekeepers and economists disagree on everything except using expensive muneca honey in luthiery.
Don't use manuka honey. Use local honey instead.
+Pádraig Floyd did you get the pun on muneca? I have to ask, sorry