Well, I'm not surprised. I kinda expected something like this would happen, because the subs in WoWs would have an identity crisis. The basic concealment mechanic and the smoke consumable pretty turned DD's into pseudo-submarines, since... forever, lol. The whole niche/role of stealthy hunter/stalker/assassin should have been that of subs... but the DD's got it. So the subs are now some kind of an awkward "homing torp" specialists, with wonky pings and "Get-out-of-jail-free-card" dives, which look soooo dull to play. It's such a gimmicky and narrow niche that doesn't seem to serve much purpose, in my eyes.
EXCELLENT POINT! Yeah the smoke screen clocking basically turns dds into subs for varying periods of time. Your torps just do way more damage and need much more skill then Sub torps do as well since subs have that Homing torp thing (no skill gameplay unless your REALLY trying for citadel torpedo hits.)
This is exactly the issue, since WG titles are based around concealment as the primary mechanic. If everyone is concealed, then no one is. Sadly this mechanic is something that I don't think they will ever abandon.
Yeah, I can literally recall arguing with people back when I started in 2016 that "They said they're not adding subs, and they don't need to; sneaky torpedo destroyers already fill that niche perfectly well" And here we are now and I still think that's true.
Exactly my words. Or, forget me, even devs' themselves said so, when they explained why shima is fine (yet, they buffed it couple of times since then). There players who wanna stealth torp build, there DDs to let 'em have it. Subs? Because... planes... ruin... concealment... for... surface... ships... I... guess. Screw it! It's not like I'm still playing, just following design as part of my own work. But sometimes, it looks like it leads me to a deadend.
Heh Mk 14 Torpedo memes wasn't funny historically for the actual sailors who had to use them early to mid war but funny for us since we now know how bad that torpedo was before all it's issues had finally been sorted...
@@treeherder42 Yeah there was no warhead since the torpedo was to be recovered after the test by floating to the surface.... the Bureau of Ordnance was so entrenched in thinking it was a perfect superweapon. This thinking and little tests was because the mk14 torpedo back then cost as much as the average family home, and the US was still in the Great Depression. Once the war started, subs got the mk14, Carriers got the mk13, and DDs got the mk15. All were the same torpedo, but one was for launching underwater, by planes, and from a ship-based launcher. subs started attacking and found the issues. Firstly, the torpedo ran deep. Unauthorized tests show that torpedoes running just under the surface ended up at 20m below.
The magnetic detonator was calibrated to work only in the test zone, but since Earth magnetic fields vary at different locations the torpedo would think that there was a ship even though it was short of the target or never detonate since the field was too low. Even if the magnetic detonator failed there was a backup contact detonator. But still torpedoes failed to explode. Why? The firing pin for the contact detonator was at a 90 degree angle to the impact, and so could not be jiggled loose to detonate the warhead. It took almost two and a half years to fix these problems, because most of the time the Bureau of Ordnance blamed the sailors for using it wrong, and asserted there were no issues with their superweapon torpedo. As a result, submarines missed many opportunities, including an opportunity to sink a Japanese CV in 1942 and many merchant ships (shipping raw material to japanese industrial mainland) vital to Japanese war efforts
No way, I played the test server extensively, and the BBs have an attack plane with depth charges you can send out... I sunk a few subs with it! Not just a floating target.
BBs and Cruisers have Depth charge plane strikes they can call in. Some Cruisers even have depth charges like DDs do. Some DDs and all Cruisers have hydro to detect subs. Carriers have no counter to Subs but trying to kill a carrier with sub torps takes FOREVER cus of the auto damage con braking the lock all the time. Also if a sub gets caught ITS FUCKED! DEAD! SUCK! GONE TO DAVY JONES LOCKER! Regardless is it really a surprise that subs counter BBs? BBs are HUGE, hard to turn, and generally slow.
So... just like with Carriers... A class without a proper skill-based mechanics AND without skill-based counter-play... It is turning into exactly what I expected it to be from the very first second they announced it.
@Kabuki Kitsune Nice attempt at trying to twist my words around. But let's play a bit. Sub pinging you - what counter do you have for that, especially in larger ship? None, except damage con - which is a waste - sub will just ping you again in 20 seconds, once your damage con expires and you will have to deal with flooding soon enough. Homing torps also largely negate your ability to properly position yourself and evade - with DD torps you can at the very least predict the angles of engagement, because they travel in straight line. Sub can effectively attack you from several angles at once, by swinging the torps around. And how do you counter the sub? You shoot it, which is unreliable to say the least with the way hitbox works, or use consumables... Come on. Compare it to stuff you can do to mitigate shooting - angle in or out, change speed, manoeuvre, target enemy guns to try and disable them. And what enemy has to do? Predict your angle, choose ammo, predict your speed, all this while also doing all the defensive stuff at the same time. And all this disregarding playing with terrain and detection ranges. In comparison, both subs and carriers have easy, nearly mindless jobs - attacking while staying in relatively safety at nearly all times.
@@hideshisface1886 if you just stay still while playing a carrier, you're gonna get rush by a DD. And you can't just fly straight with your planes because they will get destroyed by AA guns (and by the way, aa guns are fcking dumb, you don't need skills to use, they just autoshoot) you need to identify which ships have good AA and which ones you can attack. Good players with low AA need to stay with AA ships to not get damaged by planes. Please, stop talking trash about carrier if you don't know anything about it Thanks
@@strickermic Please stop talking nonsense about surface ships if you don't know anything about them. Thanks. DD rushing a carrier is a huge waste of time, and can only happen if your team fucked up. And clicking on a corner of a map is so damn difficult for a carrier player apparently. AA guns are dumb but they are also not stopping attacks. They can shoot down some planes for sure if squadron eats flak, but that's about it. The argument about low AA ships staying close to AA ships is dumb af and clearly shows that you have no idea how positioning works and why it's important for surface ships.
@Kabuki Kitsune Its the same cry babies (zoup, flamu, etc.) who complain about CVs. They only want DDs, CVs and BBs in the game, but forgot that always there were CVs and subs on the sea warfare.
A very casual WoWs player here, the kind of guy with an account as old as the Beta but with only a few hundred games mainly playing cruisers. However I played quite a few submarine sim. Just wanted to say that they couldn't have done this class worse they just missed every single element that could have made the class interesting here is why: -Homing torpedoes: one of the main points of sub games is too find a firing solution for your torps. We could have hoped for the same here after all every class has to manually aim his main weapons in WoWs but not the sub... They even could have given a twist to it with the ability to launch torps with curved trajectories. And of course being only able to shoot at pericope depth against surface ship so there is a slight chance to hit him with canons if detected. I guess they could keep some kind of homming for underwater sub vs sub to not make it ridiculously hard. -Underwater vision of the sub: since the sub is hard to detect they could have actually made the ability of the sub to detect surface ships from underwater different. First no shared detection with allies and second he can only "see" unidentified ships (read he doesn't know the ship class) if not at periscope depth, but since it's given by an hydrophone he can see any ship in the area where the player is pointing his camera. Periscope depht could be a mix of both. -Diving and surfacing: Both actions could be a bit longer so the player will have to anticipate a bit. USA's subs gimmick which basically sounds like crash diving could be a diving option given to everyone. The drawback of crashdiving would be that you can't set up yourself at periscope depth (you'll be sent deeper instead) so you wont be able to counter attack immediatly. -Gimmicks: Most gimmicks sounds uninspired and boring which is sad since we got exemples a sub gears and weapons who could have been used as gimmicks for the game. Heres the most telling exemple. German subs could be able to launch a few FaT torpedoes. A FaT (Flächen-Absuch-Torpedo) is basically a torp that automatically starts making U turns. In WoWs it means a torp that you may have to dodge multiple times or if the sub player is a bit creative hitting enemies camping behind an island with the U turn. We all knew the submarine would be hard to implement which is why they said originnaly that they didn't want to make them. But if you've read what I wrote above you may realise even more how they screw it up to the next level, these are not WW2 submarines, these things are (underwater-)spaceships XD.
Not to mention a lot of the submarines are a lot faster than they are in real life. This wouldn't necessarily be *that* big of a deal if they didn't use the historical speed argument for US standard BBs (and such) before lol. Plus it just feels and looks weird having these small diesel-electric powered boats zipping around everywhere like they're destroyers.
A good solution for homing torpedoes (and to avoid complex stuff for the player) could be to make the player able to home the torps to a maximum example distance of 3/4kms and then they just go in a straight direction, but if you do that considering the fact that subs only weapons are torps you have to increase the damage of each single torp.
Homing torpedoes would make sense if they could home in against friendlies or even the player firing them. Many submarines in WW2 went down due to torpedoes turning around on them.
Like smart bombs homing torpedoes ARE designed to make maneuvers like this... wait for skill levels to come up with off angle shots, with follow pings... Counters to subs should be Anti-sub tactics. Anti-sub rockets, mines, spotting choppers or "acoustic" homing torpedoes!
WG should have just stuck with: "There will be no subs in World of Warships" Yep, my sentiments exactly. They should bury this stinky fish of an idea of theirs and never bring it back.
Why not? It could be perfectly fine and fun to have subs for special events and seasonal game modes. I would've played convoy attack/protection PvE missions for couple of times. Sticking it to PvP is the error. But if it lacks depth (subs lack depth, do you get it? ha-ha) game could use a bit of growth in width.
@@icicles_ i mean i hate cvs as much as the next guy but.... didn't they just throw a big nerf at them 2 patches ago? Cut em some slack with the whole 'they keep buffing cvs argument'
WG: "Do not question The Spreadsheet, comrade. You go straight to Gulag if you do!" According to The Spreadsheet, subs are fun and engaging. Secondaries are not for hitting destroyers or subs. Battleships are snipers and shouldn't push. The Spreadsheet can't seem to balance anything properly, tbh. Everything is just BAD, that's the "balance" it applies. Just make everything equally crappy to play I guess. It leads to boring, bland gameplay though in general.
If you spend so many ressources to make a new class and still get it wrong after so many years, maybe this class just doesn't belong in the game in the first place...
Honestly the game would of been a lot better as just a surface warships game without carriers. They made a game focusing on surface gun carrying ships and then added the single class of ship (carrier) that literally made the gun ships obsolete and try to balance it out. The game has had identity issues every since it was first released.
@@Swarm509 the game doesnt need to be just surface ships. WG just needs to trust that their player base is capable of breathing while pressing 2 keyboard keys at once. they oversimplified carriers which ruined that class which used to be so damn fun and now they're trying to simplify subs.
@@zacharyjackson1829 The CV class used to be the most difficult class to play. And you got the hate for it to boot. They dumbed it down so every clown in existence can use it. And people start to complain about the ever present air element. You will never make "haters of the air" not hate it. Also people who are vocal does not mean it is the majority. Wargaming looks at overall stats and the volume of games played by each vessel. Tbh The most damage dealing vessels are not CVs, they are mostly BBs. Good BB players destroy pretty much everything out there. In particular Brit BBs and russian. The big problem is that in difficulty DDs are at the moment the most difficult since the CV rework. They already got to deal with air detection, radar everywhere, the enemy dd, the caps and provide a good spotting play. Meanwhile the BB just hangs in the back and clicks the screen every 30 seconds. And the BB players dare to complain about anything. To me they just need to shh, because they play the most forgiving class in game. DDs, then light cruisers and then heavy/battle cruisers are far less forgiving when you make a mistake. BBs, can turn around and sail away when the heat is too much. Often for a DD or cruiser its too late. If BBs get a bit of heat with submarines so be it.
@@dgray3771 carriers where not hard to use, you just needed 3 brainceals and multi task capabilities. 1 braincell to perma spot dds, another braincell to cross drop torps, and a third to move the carrier around.
@@santiagoperez2094 you mean the new style or the old top down one. To effectively and wisely play the old style was difficult. You lose planes they were gone. So you carefully took on a target while trying to take out the enemy carriers planes. It was multitasking. Now everything is 1 dimensional.
You think Wargaming would have learned their lesson from CVs and artillery (in WOT) about introducing a class that has completely different mechanics from the others in the game. It is almost impossible to balance.
@@SpaceGhost1984 having different classes of vehicles facing each other isnt the issue, War Thunder does it fine. The problem is they try to make their game so simplified for casuals (basically old ass veterans spending their retirement on premiums) that it hinders improvement.
@@zacharyjackson1829 The issue I pointed out isn't different classes. On the contrary, the "balance" and variety of different classes make the game better. For example, 2 fleets of all DDs or all BBs wouldn't be that interesting in the long term. The problem is that CVs (and now subs) have completely different gameplay mechanics from every other class in the game. The same thing happened in WOT with artillery. When a class doesn't work at all like the others, it is very hard to balance. Especially in a game like WOWs.
They should just scrap the whole ping, homing and citadel mechanics for sub torpedoes, and instead give subs torpedo armament on par with same-tier torpedo-focused destroyers. Then there would be actual tactical gameplay with how to position yourself for a torp strike and where and when to launch them. Subs would still differ from such destroyers in being even stealthier, but slower and easier to catch for someone who does manage to figure out where they are.
@@Dcarp7 I concur, all good sub movies usually have a scene with setting the bearing and speed of the torpedo or torpedoes in a spread and then praying for a hit and to not get detected by an escort.
I think the best implementation of subs was the old Halloween event. No gimmick, just a plain targeting reticle. No bullshit like homing torps, sound travelling with different speed for each nation, and so on. Probably i gonna put this game down for a while after these come out, my spending here is already dropped like 90%. Just a some premium sometimes.
@@jaywerner8415 More like money already spent, which needs to be recouped. The bean counters run the show at pretty much every major game publisher these days.
@@jaywerner8415 I would have spent SO MUCH MORE money had they just focused on new maps. I don't particularly care about buying premium ships anymore because I know that I'll be stuck with the same set of maps that I've already played thousands of battles on.
World of Warships: Where the World War II submarines have 21st century torpedoes, carriers can't launch their entire air wings, and battleships are also aircraft carriers
Same as always, seems the graphics team are killing it, the models look good and the underwater-feel feels pretty good, you know what I mean? But the balancing department seems to have no idea what they are doing... I loved the aesthetics when the CV rework came... The gameplay... Well, if they even cared to listen to the playerbase, they would know the majority hate them
WG's core business: throwing things off balance and have the PR department manage the outrage. If WG were restaurant, Gordon Ramsay couldn't help them.
I really tried to give subs a chance testing them on the PTS but they are just awful, boring to play and even more boring to play against. This whole project is an exercise in failure. Although if you love camping long range HE matches then subs are your best friend. Only good thing with subs is the klaxon for the horn.
Wonder how the ww2 subs would be in war thunder. Edit: and yeah the homing torps are so stupid. Back when we had them the first time in the Halloween event they had no homing torps
@@slip6699 I guess it's pretty much like CVs: the only people who like them are the people playing them, while the 22 rest of the gamers in a random battle hate it
@@zagareth4604 plus, with subs it will be even worse than with CVs I guess. The few which want to play subs will try them out; realize that Wows´s subs have nothing to do with WWII submarine-warfare; and will leave the game. - WG has made some money - success! - players have left - meh, we´ll lure new ones in with rockets. - the few of us which will still be playing the game are left with another broken class. (CVs, subs and at some point maybe rockets)
I played the Silent Hunter series back in the day and ngl i was a tiny little bit excited for subs. But the way they are implemented reminds me more of DDs with additional gimmicks. They are so quick and nimble without any emphasis on positioning and pre-planning that i don't think i'll get a silent hunter vibe from them.
To be fair, bots are stupid, and everything seems OP fighting against them. Subs are more like the moles in Whack-A-Mole, once the other team sees you, you are in trouble. You need to be on surface or at Periscope depth to hit close targets, and everything can nail you then too. Your own team will consider your presence trivial, because by the time you approach a target, everyone else has either ignored it, or blew it out of the water. Subs, slower than others and with limited range. You are at best a naval mine hoping an enemy gets too close, after being ignored by your team.
In real life submarines never worked in fleets, it was too hard to coordinate, too easy to friendly fire, it was abandoned by all major navies by world war 2. Yet wargaming persists, especially as they’ve fallen into the sink cost fallacy.
They need to mix up the armament a bit. Allow for the use of deck guns as it opens the doors to many more interesting Cruiser Subs such as the HMS X1 which could out gun some destroyers on the surface or the French Surcouf with it's dual 203mm guns. Asides from surface weapons such as those which would make the gameplay far more interesting I would suggest adding more types of torpedoes. Passive acoustic torpedoes, maybe mine laying in a sort of area denial role. Why not try some weaker but easier to use proximity detonation ones for those quicker and more maneuverable targets. Give them a reason to want to sneak around close to enemy ships staying stealthy and sneaky setting up traps and ambushes. It makes the gameplay more active and allows for more options in my opinion.
This sounds like a far to interesting design to ever be added. It would also allow them to differentiate some of the subs a bit more, since atm the two lines seem to play exactly the same despite their different consumables and slightly different characteristics.
I don't see why are people so surprised, subs were a given that they will be a boring cruise underwater, the only thing that WG will do is make them less awkward but you can bet on that they won't be very fun.
I just wonder why wg dont do a poll with say 4 options 'which do you want to see in game? 123or 4 and see what the playerbase wants its not hard and makes business sense.
I got busy and didn't have time to play around late April. After my schedule loosened up, I still didn't log back on. Still haven't. Only watched some videos on YT here and there.
Here's how you know that CV's and submarines don't belong in this game: this game is about battling other ships. CV's don't do that, they're basically just a pucker factor that the WG gods have ordained we have to live with. And submarines are stealthy ambushers, they CAN'T battle, only ambush. The only thing good about subs is, surface ships at least have some means to fight back.
I feel the same way about aircraft carriers. I have about 12 aircraft carriers, but don’t sail them pretty much at all. It’s boring playing in aircraft carriers. The only thing that’s challenging about it is hitting the target. There’s nothing else to it. With surface ships everything is critical: positioning, speed, concealment, angling, supporting allied ships in your sector, etc.
@@kenshinyamamoto5855 Their rolling out the dutch cruisers right now, so maybe in a month or 2 id say. or maybe they want alot of test data and they become our Christmas gift.
@@jaywerner8415 well yes, but they will put submarine in the main server for rank battle, submarine is not out yet officially, but it will be playable in the next update 0.10.7
BBs have an ASW plane they can summon...although only for the Japanese, US, British and French BBs so far...Russian, German and Italian BBs don't get it...for some odd reason
iCG, It just occurred to me. playing subs was "monochromatic". is the word I was looking for. when completing the obligatory WG PTS review, that IS the thought I was trying to come up with. hearing you trying to describe sub play, finally brought it out. so thanks again!
I thought they were pretty fun and I agree to a point that they are fairly simplistic (as is WoW) but what do you want them to be able to do? That is what subs were in WW2. Stealth is 100% your strength in a sub. You can hide from planes, no other class can do that. You can sneak into caps undetected. No other class can do that. Its niche, but I see an interesting role it can play in a PVP game. I hope they implement them soon and improve them over time, but I already think they are pretty fun, don''t play em if you like other classes IMO.
My issue isn't with the stealth bit, my issue is that BBS and especially German one which are supposed to be the best against torps are sitting ducks waiting to go boom, so they can't push in and we go back to deadeye style games
Same. The ability to DIVE UNDER WATER should have been what made subs special (and maybe some cool sub vs sub combat with the ping system) but no you have NO SKILL REQUIRED torpedos that can even get citdel its to make up for the fact their damage SUCKS. Historically speaking supposedly at the END of WW2 we had torps that could track the WAKE of a ship, but not these cold war clearly wire guided self homing torpedos of doom.
1:15 -- RE: "... [subs] spend time on the surface..." -- ie. there is a hard limit on the amount of time a submarine can stay submerged. While I agree that this is a good thing (and realistic as well) the thing which most of the reviewers seem to be missing in this equation is that WoWS is not being played "in realtime" but with a hidden time compression, and submarines make this very very obvious, much more obvious than any other class of ships including the CVs. *PLUS,* if we consider the differential between the effects of time compression on the CVs to the submarines, well it only gets more and more ridiculous. Granted, I doubt that the gameplay would be improved by a realtime clock.
I think you're expecting too much from a sub, it's a class which lives in opportunity strikes, it's considered a lethal ship because it's a stealthy ship with a lethal arsenal they may change the nations skills but it will never be a flashy battleship nor a nimble destroyer.
Still hold the opinion that WG got subs right a few years back with the Halloween missions. But they just couldn't resist tinkering could they? I don't know of ANYONE who is looking forward to having a class that can fire homing torpedoes and stay underwater and not get detected. Why do subs need to have homing torps? DDs dont get homing torps? And just have the underwater work on a straight timer of 30 seconds with a minute cooldown. WW2 subs would spend more time on the surface because they were faster there... but not 25knts faster...
Guess I'm done with the game then. I said if they put in a totally pointless class that doesn't work and can only travel at pre-WW1 speeds, it would show they give no fucks about fixing anything
@@sierraapples8099 the point is that the game isn't structured to have one weird class that doesn't fit into it and can't remotely get into position due to low speed. There is no one issue of this that makes it bad, the whole thing is conceptually fucking awful.
I just started to play Warships because my son likes to play, so I got on the test server to check out the Subs. From the outside looking in it seems they are being very cautious not to create another monster as they did with the wheeled vehicles in WOT.
This looks like a retread of the CV rework. Simple gameplay on one side, no or almost no viable counterplay on the other side. The draw of the submarine is in the silent hunter type gameplay where you are the lone wolf hunting ships. In a fleet role they are boring because they are only usable for either patrol duty or finishing ships. They are not good at changing position (or it will feel quite unrealistic), they cannot have the capacity to do serious dev strikes to most ships because of the very limited counterplay. Basically CV rework all over again. And we'll end up with a class that is played by 1-2% of the playerbase and hated by the rest once again.
Him: says subs are boring and dumb Bbs now: we just sit and snipe no more brawl CVs: planes go brrr CAs: island Kemp Dds: fuck is that a cv? HP go brrr
Agreed, any classes gameplay can be easily oversimplified. Ok, so we know iChase doesn't want to play Subs, doesn't mean a stack of people won't want to. Honestly the biggest 'issue' I see is actually the number of surface combatants equation out of 12v12. If WG take some of the DD slots for Subs, this should be most ok, I hope.
If I want to play/enjoy submarines, I go to Silent Hunter 3. The complexity makes that game enjoyable. But that level cannot be placed in a arcade game like WoWs. One thing I thought of torpedoes. There could be alternative armaments like in RL. You can have normal, deep water and homing torpedoes ( I know deep water torps were just a setup before you launch then), but they could have different stats. Like longer reload on homing and deep and/or different speed damage etc, but you can load only one type of torps in the tubes. And one more mechanic for fair play, if a sub spots a ship it should be seen only by the sub, but you can call out a target (for 20 sec in periscope depth) in exchange you will be spotted too. If you dive, you and the team lose sight too. This is only from top of my head. Don't worry @iChaseGaming for a future line there will homing rockets as new armament from cold war era..... :D
I have fun with submarines, the issue, why people probably struggle is, that submarines have low influence. They lack in speed and range. CVs and DDs are so influence, because they have speed and thus flexiblity. They can react to situations. BBs are slow, if they are mispositioned, they lose a lot influence, but they still have range. So submarines will be the less influencial class, which is not bad, because some ships have to be the worst.
Kind of my biggest problem right now, I literally don't know what can be done to improve the subs and that's pretty rare considering I really love designing stuff for the game. Subs just feel very disconnected? Lots of parts but no real synergy? Hard to even pin down where the core problem is
underwater, when you were targeting the sub, I don't think it was your sonar that was spotting him, I think it was the fighter planes circling nearby that kept intermittently spotting him. stopped spotting entirely when the sub dove.
Also, can I get your opinion on the new Rocket planes attack system? I feel like it’s bad, but I don’t wanna be that guy that goes like, “No! It doesn’t need a debuff!”
@@Gammaburst1298 The rocket planes are completely useless against DDs now. Not only it takes an eternity to drop the payload, but they're still RNG based - very inaccurate and some CV rockets (like Kaga) will travel as slow as possible. Still useful to start fires on battleships and cruisers. AP rockets were affected but not by much, no biggie. HE bombers are your best friends against DDs now.
@@persephassa217 Ok, so it wasn’t just me! Also, their accuracy is trash now too. It’s like the missiles try their hardest to go to the opposite area where the enemy ship is
this is terrible. Most players dont want subs in random battles. Homing torps in low tiers is bad. these torps making crazy turns is dumb, it's a class designed to break warfare and not something to balance. cv's still are a protected class against the one class they should be most vulnerable to.
Submarines are much better for people with a lot of patience. It's almost the opposite of destroyers, in that while both ships types have great stealth, destroyers are more frenetic, while submarines reward taking time to get the best setup.
A nice balance would be slowing down the ping shot travel time to require more skill with placing your shot. Also either increasing the time interval in between shots. The consept isn’t a complete bad idea just needs rebalancing
Also having some better at surveillance but torps arent as good while making others more destroyer type but recon/ping isnt as good. You could also make some subs that can shoot torps over water like cruisers and destroyers
@@xIpyschoIx The fact that you balance them by adjusting the 'ping' just emphasizes how little game play variation this class is bringing to the table, and it looks like even between nations the gameplay might even be very similar. Also torps can run 'shallow' or be fired on the surface like surface vessels firing torpedo's. That is called 'shotgunning' in this class.
The ping and homing is silly though. Unless the ship is not paying attention it is easy to dodge most if not all the torps especially if you time the damacon well. The homing aggressiveness is precisely a double edged sword. It seems ridiculous but thats is actually the weakness of the torps. At least my feelings from trying them. I didn't like it too
I just don't know about that new mechanic were after you run out of battery rather than coming up to recharge instead once out you can't go under anymore🤔
they could have made subs with normal torpedoes (with little high damage)and not homing torpedoes and then player skills would have come in to play. The very thing which made them do so many iterations is because of homing torps because double ping will make it over powered and no ping make them useless.
Why do WG hurt it's own product ? what I mean is: - there are games that are ways better in submarine / torpedoes gender - there are games much better at 3D piloting (as aviation simulators i.e.) So by adding a lass that was long before commented by players as unneeded, is laying the scene for some ( many IMO) players to go to those games. As for the rest, annoyed already by CVs, harrassed now by subs... they will simply quit to solitaire. Especially BB players.... We have this saying:"What is to much, hurts and becomes a vice" It seems it aplies to WG.
Felt exactly the same when I tried this on PTS. It was just boring and a waste of time. No fun at all. Doesn’t fit the gameplay at all. That’s kind of sad because designers did a nice job with the models and the underwater surface.
So these subs are going to be the EBRs (after crew 2.0) of World of Warships. Great future ahead for both games, guess its time to switch to something completely else like New World or something.
I got frustrated so much playing subs this week. Torpedos wouldn’t even home in right. Thought maybe I was too close or something. It just feels like there’s an entity deciding whether or not your gameplay will go smoothly or horribly.
All I hear is that in future wegee will just keep buffing subs until they are like cv levels of op, just to keep people playing them like the cvs after the cv rework.
Wow, these subs could give modern nuclear boats a run for their money when it comes to speed underwater. They should eliminate the ping (make it a consumable) and just give them straight running torps. Also give them periscope/ UZO view only. That underwater third person view is just ridiculous. Submarines at the time were almost blind
What's the counter for these things? Granted those are bots, but homing torpedoes? It seems like a frustration interrupting solid shell fights 100 times the magnitude of carriers.
Originally, the gameplay was balanced around the idea of a kind of "rock paper scissors = BB, Cruiser, DD" thing. but both CVs and now Subs are just "We can literally kill anything" and don't follow the original gameplay design at all. IOW, they entirely ruin the original design parameters of the game. it's that simple.
If torpedoes are going to hit that fucking hard, then the ping cooldown needs to be WAY higher. If the only way to get rid of the homing stuff is to use a 3-minute cooldown Damage Control Party, then just get pinged again, that's bullshit. A homing ping should be something you use like a cruiser uses torpedoes: it's your big damage, not your consistent damage. So it should be on a similar cooldown. My balance thoughts (from an admitted noobie, but I think I understand how game mechanics interact fairly well): Lower torpedo cooldown and give them less damage. Then implement one of two options. Either 1) Pinging doesn't make the torpedoes immediately accurately home, but instead turns them toward the ping. You can keep pings as a low-cooldown option, but you have to keep accurately pinging the enemy to keep the torpedoes on target. Or you can fire good torpedoes on an accurate trajectory and just make small course corrections with the pings. This keeps the game loop short and arcade-y. It gives ships counterplay options, as they can still pull good maneuvers off to throw off your pings or the torpedo trajectory if they know where you are. It also means we don't have fucking radar-guided missiles in a WWII simulator. 2) Keep the pings as a foolproof torpedo guidance system, but raise the cooldown to be closer to a full minute. This is more of a sniper implementation, where you can, with a good shot, kill your target in one go. If you miss, it's going to be hard to get it again. This means that DCP can meaningfully interact with ping instead of forcing a battleship to blow a 3-minute cooldown ability with one you can replace in 10 seconds. I favor option 1. Or there's option 3: 3) Don't implement submarines.
On no now many ppl go for the submarine to get their kill and which now makes the cruisers battleship and destroyers all worthless. I believe the torpedo protection will give some advantage against these not sure tho.
@@la_potat6065 oh my bad I am new to this game like only about three week so i did get some protection now because i think its coz of tier v in which u do have protection but not in tiers above that.
I've only been playing against the tier 6 subs in test server but I found them pretty useless for most games. I can pretty much ignore them, they don't seem to be able to do much to affect the battle, and once the surface ships are gone they are just sitting ducks for whatever is left. If it is two subs they then have a very awkward battle. The subs always seem to be at the bottom of the score board, even if they get a kill. The surface ships have to do the work to win a battle. Maybe this will change as more people play the game. Playing as the subs isn't too amazing once the rush of something new wears off. Again it really doesn't feel like one can affect the battle much. Everything I can do in a sub I can do better in a destroyer, and if I am outnumbered I have a chance of beating the enemy.
I pray the overlords at Wargaming NEVER bring submarines to WoWS: Legends!! They don't resemble submarine warfare one bit during the second world war.. Homing torpedoes are just ridiculous. Torpedoes couldn't even be depended on detonating back then, nevermind homing in on ships. The games "Battlestations: Midway: and "Battlestations: Pacific" got submarine gameplay correct! It was difficult to use torpedoes. But it wasn't about getting a bunch of kills in a submarine. They were a support ship and they weren't going to win or lose the battle for your team. It was the hunt that was so fun. The cat and mouse gameplay of submarine/anti-submarine warfare was so thrilling. Trying to get as close as possible while avoiding detection. Diving as deep as possible to avoid depth charges. It was so incredibly immersive. Submarines don't need to be the main killing machines that the other ship classes are. Just make them realistic and immersive and they will be fun to play.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
Well, I'm not surprised. I kinda expected something like this would happen, because the subs in WoWs would have an identity crisis.
The basic concealment mechanic and the smoke consumable pretty turned DD's into pseudo-submarines, since... forever, lol. The whole niche/role of stealthy hunter/stalker/assassin should have been that of subs... but the DD's got it. So the subs are now some kind of an awkward "homing torp" specialists, with wonky pings and "Get-out-of-jail-free-card" dives, which look soooo dull to play. It's such a gimmicky and narrow niche that doesn't seem to serve much purpose, in my eyes.
EXCELLENT POINT! Yeah the smoke screen clocking basically turns dds into subs for varying periods of time. Your torps just do way more damage and need much more skill then Sub torps do as well since subs have that Homing torp thing (no skill gameplay unless your REALLY trying for citadel torpedo hits.)
This is exactly the issue, since WG titles are based around concealment as the primary mechanic. If everyone is concealed, then no one is. Sadly this mechanic is something that I don't think they will ever abandon.
Homing Asashio 20k meme torps for CV hunting; pattern running torps to get around islands. hehe
Yeah, I can literally recall arguing with people back when I started in 2016 that
"They said they're not adding subs, and they don't need to; sneaky torpedo destroyers already fill that niche perfectly well"
And here we are now and I still think that's true.
Exactly my words. Or, forget me, even devs' themselves said so, when they explained why shima is fine (yet, they buffed it couple of times since then). There players who wanna stealth torp build, there DDs to let 'em have it.
Subs? Because... planes... ruin... concealment... for... surface... ships... I... guess. Screw it! It's not like I'm still playing, just following design as part of my own work. But sometimes, it looks like it leads me to a deadend.
Everytime a torpedo has a bug i'm just going to say ''There goes the MK14 again''
I'm sure that most of the typical WOWs players don't have even a minimal historical background knowledge... ;-)
Heh Mk 14 Torpedo memes wasn't funny historically for the actual sailors who had to use them early to mid war but funny for us since we now know how bad that torpedo was before all it's issues had finally been sorted...
@@ogscarl3t375 Yup two test fires, one success. Perfectly good torpedo!
@@catloverjerrygarcia5086 two unloaded tests wasn't it?
So just "yeah this tube moves"
@@treeherder42 Yeah there was no warhead since the torpedo was to be recovered after the test by floating to the surface.... the Bureau of Ordnance was so entrenched in thinking it was a perfect superweapon. This thinking and little tests was because the mk14 torpedo back then cost as much as the average family home, and the US was still in the Great Depression.
Once the war started, subs got the mk14, Carriers got the mk13, and DDs got the mk15. All were the same torpedo, but one was for launching underwater, by planes, and from a ship-based launcher. subs started attacking and found the issues.
Firstly, the torpedo ran deep. Unauthorized tests show that torpedoes running just under the surface ended up at 20m below.
The magnetic detonator was calibrated to work only in the test zone, but since Earth magnetic fields vary at different locations the torpedo would think that there was a ship even though it was short of the target or never detonate since the field was too low.
Even if the magnetic detonator failed there was a backup contact detonator. But still torpedoes failed to explode. Why? The firing pin for the contact detonator was at a 90 degree angle to the impact, and so could not be jiggled loose to detonate the warhead.
It took almost two and a half years to fix these problems, because most of the time the Bureau of Ordnance blamed the sailors for using it wrong, and asserted there were no issues with their superweapon torpedo.
As a result, submarines missed many opportunities, including an opportunity to sink a Japanese CV in 1942 and many merchant ships (shipping raw material to japanese industrial mainland) vital to Japanese war efforts
so dds get even more workload while bbs wont even dare to leave the spawn area
No way, I played the test server extensively, and the BBs have an attack plane with depth charges you can send out... I sunk a few subs with it! Not just a floating target.
@@ec5838 yea but german ones dont ....
BBs and Cruisers have Depth charge plane strikes they can call in. Some Cruisers even have depth charges like DDs do. Some DDs and all Cruisers have hydro to detect subs. Carriers have no counter to Subs but trying to kill a carrier with sub torps takes FOREVER cus of the auto damage con braking the lock all the time.
Also if a sub gets caught ITS FUCKED! DEAD! SUCK! GONE TO DAVY JONES LOCKER! Regardless is it really a surprise that subs counter BBs? BBs are HUGE, hard to turn, and generally slow.
@@squirrely_wrath sigh... "avg bb player" another salty douche who thinks the entire player base is full of idiots, its the exception not the rule.
@@ec5838 all bbs have this?
So... just like with Carriers... A class without a proper skill-based mechanics AND without skill-based counter-play...
It is turning into exactly what I expected it to be from the very first second they announced it.
carriers takes skills to shoot...
@Kabuki Kitsune Nice attempt at trying to twist my words around.
But let's play a bit.
Sub pinging you - what counter do you have for that, especially in larger ship? None, except damage con - which is a waste - sub will just ping you again in 20 seconds, once your damage con expires and you will have to deal with flooding soon enough.
Homing torps also largely negate your ability to properly position yourself and evade - with DD torps you can at the very least predict the angles of engagement, because they travel in straight line. Sub can effectively attack you from several angles at once, by swinging the torps around.
And how do you counter the sub? You shoot it, which is unreliable to say the least with the way hitbox works, or use consumables... Come on.
Compare it to stuff you can do to mitigate shooting - angle in or out, change speed, manoeuvre, target enemy guns to try and disable them.
And what enemy has to do? Predict your angle, choose ammo, predict your speed, all this while also doing all the defensive stuff at the same time.
And all this disregarding playing with terrain and detection ranges.
In comparison, both subs and carriers have easy, nearly mindless jobs - attacking while staying in relatively safety at nearly all times.
@@hideshisface1886 if you just stay still while playing a carrier, you're gonna get rush by a DD.
And you can't just fly straight with your planes because they will get destroyed by AA guns (and by the way, aa guns are fcking dumb, you don't need skills to use, they just autoshoot) you need to identify which ships have good AA and which ones you can attack.
Good players with low AA need to stay with AA ships to not get damaged by planes.
Please, stop talking trash about carrier if you don't know anything about it
Thanks
@@strickermic Please stop talking nonsense about surface ships if you don't know anything about them. Thanks.
DD rushing a carrier is a huge waste of time, and can only happen if your team fucked up. And clicking on a corner of a map is so damn difficult for a carrier player apparently.
AA guns are dumb but they are also not stopping attacks. They can shoot down some planes for sure if squadron eats flak, but that's about it.
The argument about low AA ships staying close to AA ships is dumb af and clearly shows that you have no idea how positioning works and why it's important for surface ships.
@Kabuki Kitsune Its the same cry babies (zoup, flamu, etc.) who complain about CVs. They only want DDs, CVs and BBs in the game, but forgot that always there were CVs and subs on the sea warfare.
A very casual WoWs player here, the kind of guy with an account as old as the Beta but with only a few hundred games mainly playing cruisers. However I played quite a few submarine sim.
Just wanted to say that they couldn't have done this class worse they just missed every single element that could have made the class interesting here is why:
-Homing torpedoes: one of the main points of sub games is too find a firing solution for your torps. We could have hoped for the same here after all every class has to manually aim his main weapons in WoWs but not the sub... They even could have given a twist to it with the ability to launch torps with curved trajectories. And of course being only able to shoot at pericope depth against surface ship so there is a slight chance to hit him with canons if detected. I guess they could keep some kind of homming for underwater sub vs sub to not make it ridiculously hard.
-Underwater vision of the sub: since the sub is hard to detect they could have actually made the ability of the sub to detect surface ships from underwater different. First no shared detection with allies and second he can only "see" unidentified ships (read he doesn't know the ship class) if not at periscope depth, but since it's given by an hydrophone he can see any ship in the area where the player is pointing his camera. Periscope depht could be a mix of both.
-Diving and surfacing: Both actions could be a bit longer so the player will have to anticipate a bit. USA's subs gimmick which basically sounds like crash diving could be a diving option given to everyone. The drawback of crashdiving would be that you can't set up yourself at periscope depth (you'll be sent deeper instead) so you wont be able to counter attack immediatly.
-Gimmicks: Most gimmicks sounds uninspired and boring which is sad since we got exemples a sub gears and weapons who could have been used as gimmicks for the game.
Heres the most telling exemple. German subs could be able to launch a few FaT torpedoes. A FaT (Flächen-Absuch-Torpedo) is basically a torp that automatically starts making U turns. In WoWs it means a torp that you may have to dodge multiple times or if the sub player is a bit creative hitting enemies camping behind an island with the U turn.
We all knew the submarine would be hard to implement which is why they said originnaly that they didn't want to make them. But if you've read what I wrote above you may realise even more how they screw it up to the next level, these are not WW2 submarines, these things are (underwater-)spaceships XD.
Not to mention a lot of the submarines are a lot faster than they are in real life. This wouldn't necessarily be *that* big of a deal if they didn't use the historical speed argument for US standard BBs (and such) before lol.
Plus it just feels and looks weird having these small diesel-electric powered boats zipping around everywhere like they're destroyers.
A good solution for homing torpedoes (and to avoid complex stuff for the player) could be to make the player able to home the torps to a maximum example distance of 3/4kms and then they just go in a straight direction, but if you do that considering the fact that subs only weapons are torps you have to increase the damage of each single torp.
Homing torpedoes would make sense if they could home in against friendlies or even the player firing them. Many submarines in WW2 went down due to torpedoes turning around on them.
someone clearly sent some Mk48 ADCAPs back into the past, that homing is ridiculous
It has to be an error. I thought they tuned them down.
Un realistic stats for unrealistic battles. There is a point where things brakes as hard as you try to arcade it.
Like smart bombs homing torpedoes ARE designed to make maneuvers like this... wait for skill levels to come up with off angle shots, with follow pings...
Counters to subs should be Anti-sub tactics. Anti-sub rockets, mines, spotting choppers or "acoustic" homing torpedoes!
WG should have just stuck with: "There will be no subs in World of Warships"
Yep, my sentiments exactly. They should bury this stinky fish of an idea of theirs and never bring it back.
Yep, but they poured the money into development, so the accountants and the shareholders are demanding a return, and that's the end of it.
Not even shareholders since they're private company, just bean counters wanting positive return on investment
This on the backs of _Crew Skills 2.0_ in tanks is a good 1-2 punch to kill off their playerbases entirely.
I'm sure WG will balance this out and make the game enjoyable for all..... LOL
Why not? It could be perfectly fine and fun to have subs for special events and seasonal game modes. I would've played convoy attack/protection PvE missions for couple of times. Sticking it to PvP is the error. But if it lacks depth (subs lack depth, do you get it? ha-ha) game could use a bit of growth in width.
WG: " Lord Spreadsheet knows it all, He is our SAVIOR!"
It's more like Lord Spreadcheeks.
Spreadsheet says 15% of the playerbase has to play CV so keep buffing CV until that number is met!
@@icicles_ i mean i hate cvs as much as the next guy but.... didn't they just throw a big nerf at them 2 patches ago? Cut em some slack with the whole 'they keep buffing cvs argument'
WG: "Do not question The Spreadsheet, comrade. You go straight to Gulag if you do!"
According to The Spreadsheet, subs are fun and engaging. Secondaries are not for hitting destroyers or subs. Battleships are snipers and shouldn't push. The Spreadsheet can't seem to balance anything properly, tbh. Everything is just BAD, that's the "balance" it applies. Just make everything equally crappy to play I guess. It leads to boring, bland gameplay though in general.
Did you just assume the spreadsheets gender?! 😱
If you spend so many ressources to make a new class and still get it wrong after so many years, maybe this class just doesn't belong in the game in the first place...
nooooo, It cannot be! Submarines are 100% needed because every player wants them!
-WG
"I know, let's take the game, which is already slow, and make it EVEN slower and more passive!" - WG, trying to replicate Warplanes
Honestly the game would of been a lot better as just a surface warships game without carriers. They made a game focusing on surface gun carrying ships and then added the single class of ship (carrier) that literally made the gun ships obsolete and try to balance it out. The game has had identity issues every since it was first released.
@@Swarm509 the game doesnt need to be just surface ships. WG just needs to trust that their player base is capable of breathing while pressing 2 keyboard keys at once. they oversimplified carriers which ruined that class which used to be so damn fun and now they're trying to simplify subs.
@@zacharyjackson1829 The CV class used to be the most difficult class to play. And you got the hate for it to boot. They dumbed it down so every clown in existence can use it. And people start to complain about the ever present air element. You will never make "haters of the air" not hate it. Also people who are vocal does not mean it is the majority.
Wargaming looks at overall stats and the volume of games played by each vessel.
Tbh The most damage dealing vessels are not CVs, they are mostly BBs. Good BB players destroy pretty much everything out there. In particular Brit BBs and russian.
The big problem is that in difficulty DDs are at the moment the most difficult since the CV rework. They already got to deal with air detection, radar everywhere, the enemy dd, the caps and provide a good spotting play.
Meanwhile the BB just hangs in the back and clicks the screen every 30 seconds. And the BB players dare to complain about anything. To me they just need to shh, because they play the most forgiving class in game.
DDs, then light cruisers and then heavy/battle cruisers are far less forgiving when you make a mistake. BBs, can turn around and sail away when the heat is too much. Often for a DD or cruiser its too late. If BBs get a bit of heat with submarines so be it.
@@dgray3771 carriers where not hard to use, you just needed 3 brainceals and multi task capabilities.
1 braincell to perma spot dds, another braincell to cross drop torps, and a third to move the carrier around.
@@santiagoperez2094 you mean the new style or the old top down one.
To effectively and wisely play the old style was difficult. You lose planes they were gone. So you carefully took on a target while trying to take out the enemy carriers planes. It was multitasking. Now everything is 1 dimensional.
I just don’t feel like there’s a place for such a specialist class in a 12v12 game.
Trying to balance them will just end up making everything shit
Yeah, that's my feeling right now, 12 v 12...the subs just feels super awkward
You think Wargaming would have learned their lesson from CVs and artillery (in WOT) about introducing a class that has completely different mechanics from the others in the game. It is almost impossible to balance.
The game is already shit we don’t need more shit to add to the original pile of shit
@@SpaceGhost1984 having different classes of vehicles facing each other isnt the issue, War Thunder does it fine. The problem is they try to make their game so simplified for casuals (basically old ass veterans spending their retirement on premiums) that it hinders improvement.
@@zacharyjackson1829 The issue I pointed out isn't different classes. On the contrary, the "balance" and variety of different classes make the game better. For example, 2 fleets of all DDs or all BBs wouldn't be that interesting in the long term. The problem is that CVs (and now subs) have completely different gameplay mechanics from every other class in the game. The same thing happened in WOT with artillery. When a class doesn't work at all like the others, it is very hard to balance. Especially in a game like WOWs.
They should just scrap the whole ping, homing and citadel mechanics for sub torpedoes, and instead give subs torpedo armament on par with same-tier torpedo-focused destroyers. Then there would be actual tactical gameplay with how to position yourself for a torp strike and where and when to launch them. Subs would still differ from such destroyers in being even stealthier, but slower and easier to catch for someone who does manage to figure out where they are.
^^ this. They should've done this.
@@Dcarp7 I concur, all good sub movies usually have a scene with setting the bearing and speed of the torpedo or torpedoes in a spread and then praying for a hit and to not get detected by an escort.
I think the best implementation of subs was the old Halloween event. No gimmick, just a plain targeting reticle. No bullshit like homing torps, sound travelling with different speed for each nation, and so on. Probably i gonna put this game down for a while after these come out, my spending here is already dropped like 90%. Just a some premium sometimes.
@@catloverjerrygarcia5086 All good sub movies also have homing torpedoes so idk how that's a good argument lmao
You it's gonna be bad when ichase leads with "yeaaahh"
can WG just put this idea out of its misery?
NOPE. Money to be made.
@@jaywerner8415 More like money already spent, which needs to be recouped. The bean counters run the show at pretty much every major game publisher these days.
@@jaywerner8415 I would have spent SO MUCH MORE money had they just focused on new maps. I don't particularly care about buying premium ships anymore because I know that I'll be stuck with the same set of maps that I've already played thousands of battles on.
Just what every one wants homing torps. Good luck getting battleships to ever want to push in
World of Warships: Where the World War II submarines have 21st century torpedoes, carriers can't launch their entire air wings, and battleships are also aircraft carriers
Same as always, seems the graphics team are killing it, the models look good and the underwater-feel feels pretty good, you know what I mean? But the balancing department seems to have no idea what they are doing...
I loved the aesthetics when the CV rework came... The gameplay... Well, if they even cared to listen to the playerbase, they would know the majority hate them
I love CVs actually :)
they only listen to a small portion of their shills and think its the majority
Ye but they should improve the mobile versions graphics
@@Aci_yt there was a carrier submarine
WG's core business: throwing things off balance and have the PR department manage the outrage. If WG were restaurant, Gordon Ramsay couldn't help them.
Getting a devastating strike achievement as a submarine with the secondary gun was the cherry on top
I really tried to give subs a chance testing them on the PTS but they are just awful, boring to play and even more boring to play against. This whole project is an exercise in failure. Although if you love camping long range HE matches then subs are your best friend.
Only good thing with subs is the klaxon for the horn.
OOF. Trust me, it's not just bad over here. WOT is also about to get murdered.
Why? What's happening in WoT
@@xmlthegreat Everything.
Crew 2.0...yeah, I saw that mess
Mk48 ADCAP makes perfect sense.
next Russian cvs will have laser AA and VLS supersonic tomahawk missiles.
Wonder how the ww2 subs would be in war thunder.
Edit: and yeah the homing torps are so stupid. Back when we had them the first time in the Halloween event they had no homing torps
I'm really wondering: Do the gamers want subs or is it just WG?
about 10% want is because they expect silent hunter. The rest of us know wg can't pull this off and we are all going to suffer for it.
@@slip6699 I guess it's pretty much like CVs: the only people who like them are the people playing them, while the 22 rest of the gamers in a random battle hate it
@@zagareth4604 plus, with subs it will be even worse than with CVs I guess. The few which want to play subs will try them out; realize that Wows´s subs have nothing to do with WWII submarine-warfare; and will leave the game.
- WG has made some money - success!
- players have left - meh, we´ll lure new ones in with rockets.
- the few of us which will still be playing the game are left with another broken class. (CVs, subs and at some point maybe rockets)
I would say it's .mainly Wargaming that wants subs. Probably Sub_Octavian tbh.
I played the Silent Hunter series back in the day and ngl i was a tiny little bit excited for subs. But the way they are implemented reminds me more of DDs with additional gimmicks. They are so quick and nimble without any emphasis on positioning and pre-planning that i don't think i'll get a silent hunter vibe from them.
At the arcade end of the spectrum, subs were very cool in Battlestations Midway. Can also be satisfying in simulators to those with patience.
And the video ends with Devastating Strike to a sub that was at 1 hp in the last 3 mins :D
Steel ocean has been my best experience with subs for a long time
What do you want? Do you want to plot the torpedo course along with ship course and calculate for an intercept via radar/sonar?
Yes. or at least not homing torps, that's just too easy.
To be fair, bots are stupid, and everything seems OP fighting against them.
Subs are more like the moles in Whack-A-Mole, once the other team sees you, you are in trouble. You need to be on surface or at Periscope depth to hit close targets, and everything can nail you then too.
Your own team will consider your presence trivial, because by the time you approach a target, everyone else has either ignored it, or blew it out of the water.
Subs, slower than others and with limited range. You are at best a naval mine hoping an enemy gets too close, after being ignored by your team.
In real life submarines never worked in fleets, it was too hard to coordinate, too easy to friendly fire, it was abandoned by all major navies by world war 2.
Yet wargaming persists, especially as they’ve fallen into the sink cost fallacy.
Let me summarize the good side about the submarines:
Art department carried (again) and we can forget about the rest.
They need to mix up the armament a bit. Allow for the use of deck guns as it opens the doors to many more interesting Cruiser Subs such as the HMS X1 which could out gun some destroyers on the surface or the French Surcouf with it's dual 203mm guns. Asides from surface weapons such as those which would make the gameplay far more interesting I would suggest adding more types of torpedoes. Passive acoustic torpedoes, maybe mine laying in a sort of area denial role. Why not try some weaker but easier to use proximity detonation ones for those quicker and more maneuverable targets. Give them a reason to want to sneak around close to enemy ships staying stealthy and sneaky setting up traps and ambushes. It makes the gameplay more active and allows for more options in my opinion.
This sounds like a far to interesting design to ever be added. It would also allow them to differentiate some of the subs a bit more, since atm the two lines seem to play exactly the same despite their different consumables and slightly different characteristics.
I don't see why are people so surprised, subs were a given that they will be a boring cruise underwater, the only thing that WG will do is make them less awkward but you can bet on that they won't be very fun.
I just wonder why wg dont do a poll with say 4 options 'which do you want to see in game? 123or 4 and see what the playerbase wants its not hard and makes business sense.
Only if they care about listening to their players, which they have demonstrated numerous times previously they do not.
Option #4 should be "none of the above".
Any idea when these thing are coming to the public server?
I got busy and didn't have time to play around late April. After my schedule loosened up, I still didn't log back on. Still haven't. Only watched some videos on YT here and there.
Here's how you know that CV's and submarines don't belong in this game: this game is about battling other ships. CV's don't do that, they're basically just a pucker factor that the WG gods have ordained we have to live with. And submarines are stealthy ambushers, they CAN'T battle, only ambush. The only thing good about subs is, surface ships at least have some means to fight back.
I feel the same way about aircraft carriers. I have about 12 aircraft carriers, but don’t sail them pretty much at all. It’s boring playing in aircraft carriers. The only thing that’s challenging about it is hitting the target. There’s nothing else to it. With surface ships everything is critical: positioning, speed, concealment, angling, supporting allied ships in your sector, etc.
This is literally Wargaming approved cheat mode / aim bot.
I came back 2 years later and subs are still not added to the actual game,
that's good
give em a few months.
@@jaywerner8415 or a few weeks, wg gonna put it for sure
@@kenshinyamamoto5855 Their rolling out the dutch cruisers right now, so maybe in a month or 2 id say. or maybe they want alot of test data and they become our Christmas gift.
@@jaywerner8415 well yes, but they will put submarine in the main server for rank battle, submarine is not out yet officially, but it will be playable in the next update 0.10.7
Why the heck WG didn't give the airstrike consumable to all battleships? Makes no sense. Those battleships r completely helpless.
BBs have an ASW plane they can summon...although only for the Japanese, US, British and French BBs so far...Russian, German and Italian BBs don't get it...for some odd reason
@@ichasegaming yeah Big Brain WG.
iCG, It just occurred to me. playing subs was "monochromatic". is the word I was looking for. when completing the obligatory WG PTS review, that IS the thought I was trying to come up with. hearing you trying to describe sub play, finally brought it out.
so thanks again!
I thought they were pretty fun and I agree to a point that they are fairly simplistic (as is WoW) but what do you want them to be able to do? That is what subs were in WW2. Stealth is 100% your strength in a sub. You can hide from planes, no other class can do that. You can sneak into caps undetected. No other class can do that. Its niche, but I see an interesting role it can play in a PVP game. I hope they implement them soon and improve them over time, but I already think they are pretty fun, don''t play em if you like other classes IMO.
My issue isn't with the stealth bit, my issue is that BBS and especially German one which are supposed to be the best against torps are sitting ducks waiting to go boom, so they can't push in and we go back to deadeye style games
I wish they had never allowed the homing feature of the torpedos
Same. The ability to DIVE UNDER WATER should have been what made subs special (and maybe some cool sub vs sub combat with the ping system) but no you have NO SKILL REQUIRED torpedos that can even get citdel its to make up for the fact their damage SUCKS.
Historically speaking supposedly at the END of WW2 we had torps that could track the WAKE of a ship, but not these cold war clearly wire guided self homing torpedos of doom.
@@jaywerner8415 Indeed!
1:15 -- RE: "... [subs] spend time on the surface..." -- ie. there is a hard limit on the amount of time a submarine can stay submerged. While I agree that this is a good thing (and realistic as well) the thing which most of the reviewers seem to be missing in this equation is that WoWS is not being played "in realtime" but with a hidden time compression, and submarines make this very very obvious, much more obvious than any other class of ships including the CVs. *PLUS,* if we consider the differential between the effects of time compression on the CVs to the submarines, well it only gets more and more ridiculous.
Granted, I doubt that the gameplay would be improved by a realtime clock.
I think you're expecting too much from a sub, it's a class which lives in opportunity strikes, it's considered a lethal ship because it's a stealthy ship with a lethal arsenal they may change the nations skills but it will never be a flashy battleship nor a nimble destroyer.
Still hold the opinion that WG got subs right a few years back with the Halloween missions. But they just couldn't resist tinkering could they? I don't know of ANYONE who is looking forward to having a class that can fire homing torpedoes and stay underwater and not get detected. Why do subs need to have homing torps? DDs dont get homing torps? And just have the underwater work on a straight timer of 30 seconds with a minute cooldown. WW2 subs would spend more time on the surface because they were faster there... but not 25knts faster...
Guess I'm done with the game then. I said if they put in a totally pointless class that doesn't work and can only travel at pre-WW1 speeds, it would show they give no fucks about fixing anything
Most people want subs to have slower speed
@@sierraapples8099 the point is that the game isn't structured to have one weird class that doesn't fit into it and can't remotely get into position due to low speed. There is no one issue of this that makes it bad, the whole thing is conceptually fucking awful.
I also quit the game because of Subs
@@webtraveler0774 great
I quit the game cuz my pc can't handle it, constant lag spike and stuff
Chase: thats all I gotta say!
Bote: shoots 1 shell at ship, it hits, kills ship.
WG: Give that man a dev strike!
I just started to play Warships because my son likes to play, so I got on the test server to check out the Subs. From the outside looking in it seems they are being very cautious not to create another monster as they did with the wheeled vehicles in WOT.
Or the totally untested far as anyone can tell Carrier rework. which they still need to work on in my opinion.
This looks like a retread of the CV rework. Simple gameplay on one side, no or almost no viable counterplay on the other side. The draw of the submarine is in the silent hunter type gameplay where you are the lone wolf hunting ships. In a fleet role they are boring because they are only usable for either patrol duty or finishing ships. They are not good at changing position (or it will feel quite unrealistic), they cannot have the capacity to do serious dev strikes to most ships because of the very limited counterplay.
Basically CV rework all over again. And we'll end up with a class that is played by 1-2% of the playerbase and hated by the rest once again.
In a way thats actually a good thing. If the class dies and stays dead ill be really happy, just like high tier CV games are very rare.
Him: says subs are boring and dumb
Bbs now: we just sit and snipe no more brawl
CVs: planes go brrr
CAs: island Kemp
Dds: fuck is that a cv? HP go brrr
Agreed, any classes gameplay can be easily oversimplified. Ok, so we know iChase doesn't want to play Subs, doesn't mean a stack of people won't want to.
Honestly the biggest 'issue' I see is actually the number of surface combatants equation out of 12v12. If WG take some of the DD slots for Subs, this should be most ok, I hope.
@@SappeREffecT yeah
Cherry on top is the Dev Strike at the end with 1 Secondary hit LMAO
Screw the boring, unnecessary subs. No benefits to the game, just problems.
If I want to play/enjoy submarines, I go to Silent Hunter 3. The complexity makes that game enjoyable. But that level cannot be placed in a arcade game like WoWs. One thing I thought of torpedoes. There could be alternative armaments like in RL. You can have normal, deep water and homing torpedoes ( I know deep water torps were just a setup before you launch then), but they could have different stats. Like longer reload on homing and deep and/or different speed damage etc, but you can load only one type of torps in the tubes. And one more mechanic for fair play, if a sub spots a ship it should be seen only by the sub, but you can call out a target (for 20 sec in periscope depth) in exchange you will be spotted too. If you dive, you and the team lose sight too.
This is only from top of my head.
Don't worry @iChaseGaming for a future line there will homing rockets as new armament from cold war era..... :D
I have fun with submarines, the issue, why people probably struggle is, that submarines have low influence. They lack in speed and range. CVs and DDs are so influence, because they have speed and thus flexiblity. They can react to situations.
BBs are slow, if they are mispositioned, they lose a lot influence, but they still have range.
So submarines will be the less influencial class, which is not bad, because some ships have to be the worst.
still say you should have to target the ship, ping it then launch the torps. they should not home in after being fired.
Chase, what would you add or remove to improve subs?
Kind of my biggest problem right now, I literally don't know what can be done to improve the subs and that's pretty rare considering I really love designing stuff for the game. Subs just feel very disconnected? Lots of parts but no real synergy? Hard to even pin down where the core problem is
underwater, when you were targeting the sub, I don't think it was your sonar that was spotting him, I think it was the fighter planes circling nearby that kept intermittently spotting him. stopped spotting entirely when the sub dove.
Simplified game emchanics means instant grtification for the wales, and all that WG wants is to milk the wales as much and as quick as possible.
Quick question. Why’s the Aircraft Carrier called a CV
Also, can I get your opinion on the new Rocket planes attack system? I feel like it’s bad, but I don’t wanna be that guy that goes like, “No! It doesn’t need a debuff!”
US Navy hull classification code
@@warmike Thank you
@@Gammaburst1298 The rocket planes are completely useless against DDs now. Not only it takes an eternity to drop the payload, but they're still RNG based - very inaccurate and some CV rockets (like Kaga) will travel as slow as possible. Still useful to start fires on battleships and cruisers. AP rockets were affected but not by much, no biggie. HE bombers are your best friends against DDs now.
@@persephassa217 Ok, so it wasn’t just me! Also, their accuracy is trash now too. It’s like the missiles try their hardest to go to the opposite area where the enemy ship is
this is terrible. Most players dont want subs in random battles. Homing torps in low tiers is bad. these torps making crazy turns is dumb, it's a class designed to break warfare and not something to balance. cv's still are a protected class against the one class they should be most vulnerable to.
Subs are the Shinobi's of the sea and most definitely have a place here as the stealth warriors.
Submarines are much better for people with a lot of patience. It's almost the opposite of destroyers, in that while both ships types have great stealth, destroyers are more frenetic, while submarines reward taking time to get the best setup.
Exactly I absolutely love subs not everyone loves the active playstyle
A nice balance would be slowing down the ping shot travel time to require more skill with placing your shot. Also either increasing the time interval in between shots. The consept isn’t a complete bad idea just needs rebalancing
Also having some better at surveillance but torps arent as good while making others more destroyer type but recon/ping isnt as good. You could also make some subs that can shoot torps over water like cruisers and destroyers
@@xIpyschoIx The fact that you balance them by adjusting the 'ping' just emphasizes how little game play variation this class is bringing to the table, and it looks like even between nations the gameplay might even be very similar. Also torps can run 'shallow' or be fired on the surface like surface vessels firing torpedo's. That is called 'shotgunning' in this class.
And they want this tested on Ranked in about a few months, lmao. People who rented subs are in for a long queue
The ping and homing is silly though. Unless the ship is not paying attention it is easy to dodge most if not all the torps especially if you time the damacon well. The homing aggressiveness is precisely a double edged sword. It seems ridiculous but thats is actually the weakness of the torps. At least my feelings from trying them. I didn't like it too
I just don't know about that new mechanic were after you run out of battery rather than coming up to recharge instead once out you can't go under anymore🤔
Seems to me the problem is the submarines don't actually do what submarines actually DID.
they could have made subs with normal torpedoes (with little high damage)and not homing torpedoes and then player skills would have come in to play. The very thing which made them do so many iterations is because of homing torps because double ping will make it over powered and no ping make them useless.
Why do WG hurt it's own product ?
what I mean is:
- there are games that are ways better in submarine / torpedoes gender
- there are games much better at 3D piloting (as aviation simulators i.e.)
So by adding a lass that was long before commented by players as unneeded, is laying the scene for some ( many IMO) players to go to those games.
As for the rest, annoyed already by CVs, harrassed now by subs... they will simply quit to solitaire. Especially BB players....
We have this saying:"What is to much, hurts and becomes a vice" It seems it aplies to WG.
Felt exactly the same when I tried this on PTS. It was just boring and a waste of time. No fun at all. Doesn’t fit the gameplay at all. That’s kind of sad because designers did a nice job with the models and the underwater surface.
are the subs already available to be used in game? or still in public test serves?
Subs have been in development for years. Years. I remember playing the original Halloween event and thought it was fun but not needed in ransoms.
"ransoms" heh.
WG is trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole
Don't worry, the ping mechanic will make that round peg fit perfectly /s
I just started playing subs today and I can already see the pattern:
torpedo, sonar, dive, surface, repeat.
then profit.
You want to play submarines, play silent hunter games, play cold waters, heck there is U-boat.
Now that I agree with 100%.
So these subs are going to be the EBRs (after crew 2.0) of World of Warships. Great future ahead for both games, guess its time to switch to something completely else like New World or something.
If there's one thing we've learned it's that WG cannot admit failure.... So hello Submarines.
I got frustrated so much playing subs this week. Torpedos wouldn’t even home in right. Thought maybe I was too close or something. It just feels like there’s an entity deciding whether or not your gameplay will go smoothly or horribly.
All I hear is that in future wegee will just keep buffing subs until they are like cv levels of op, just to keep people playing them like the cvs after the cv rework.
God I hope not...that would be miserable
CVs aren't OP.
@@TheRobotMaster1 are you a cv player? 🤨
@@therecklesswarlock6439 I play both DD and CV.
Wow, these subs could give modern nuclear boats a run for their money when it comes to speed underwater. They should eliminate the ping (make it a consumable) and just give them straight running torps. Also give them periscope/ UZO view only. That underwater third person view is just ridiculous. Submarines at the time were almost blind
What's the counter for these things? Granted those are bots, but homing torpedoes? It seems like a frustration interrupting solid shell fights 100 times the magnitude of carriers.
Originally, the gameplay was balanced around the idea of a kind of "rock paper scissors = BB, Cruiser, DD" thing. but both CVs and now Subs are just "We can literally kill anything" and don't follow the original gameplay design at all. IOW, they entirely ruin the original design parameters of the game.
it's that simple.
I'm waiting for Frigates and Corvettes to be added next... Maybe Schnellboots (E-Boats), Fairmile B's and PT boats...
WG: our players can't do too many things...
*Proceeds to add asw to ships*
Now you have to do 4 more things on top of everything you are doing.
It looked really cool under water!
German homing torpedos could actually home in like this.
If torpedoes are going to hit that fucking hard, then the ping cooldown needs to be WAY higher. If the only way to get rid of the homing stuff is to use a 3-minute cooldown Damage Control Party, then just get pinged again, that's bullshit.
A homing ping should be something you use like a cruiser uses torpedoes: it's your big damage, not your consistent damage. So it should be on a similar cooldown.
My balance thoughts (from an admitted noobie, but I think I understand how game mechanics interact fairly well): Lower torpedo cooldown and give them less damage. Then implement one of two options. Either
1) Pinging doesn't make the torpedoes immediately accurately home, but instead turns them toward the ping. You can keep pings as a low-cooldown option, but you have to keep accurately pinging the enemy to keep the torpedoes on target. Or you can fire good torpedoes on an accurate trajectory and just make small course corrections with the pings. This keeps the game loop short and arcade-y. It gives ships counterplay options, as they can still pull good maneuvers off to throw off your pings or the torpedo trajectory if they know where you are. It also means we don't have fucking radar-guided missiles in a WWII simulator.
2) Keep the pings as a foolproof torpedo guidance system, but raise the cooldown to be closer to a full minute. This is more of a sniper implementation, where you can, with a good shot, kill your target in one go. If you miss, it's going to be hard to get it again. This means that DCP can meaningfully interact with ping instead of forcing a battleship to blow a 3-minute cooldown ability with one you can replace in 10 seconds.
I favor option 1. Or there's option 3:
3) Don't implement submarines.
I can say good by to Rank battles now.
On no now many ppl go for the submarine to get their kill and which now makes the cruisers battleship and destroyers all worthless. I believe the torpedo protection will give some advantage against these not sure tho.
Torpedo protection is useless since it will get bypassed by double pings, the torps explode on keel and deal full citadel damage.
@@la_potat6065 oh my bad I am new to this game like only about three week so i did get some protection now because i think its coz of tier v in which u do have protection but not in tiers above that.
I just see the homing torpedos as a test run for the next Gen ships they bring out that can shoot missiles.
4:20
yes , but tbh , that is sumbaribes in the nutshell. Position and wait for oportunity.
i heard someone one say that the homing topedoes should be a special upgrade, not basic
Its essentially aircraft carriers but like more interactive.
I've only been playing against the tier 6 subs in test server but I found them pretty useless for most games. I can pretty much ignore them, they don't seem to be able to do much to affect the battle, and once the surface ships are gone they are just sitting ducks for whatever is left. If it is two subs they then have a very awkward battle.
The subs always seem to be at the bottom of the score board, even if they get a kill. The surface ships have to do the work to win a battle. Maybe this will change as more people play the game.
Playing as the subs isn't too amazing once the rush of something new wears off. Again it really doesn't feel like one can affect the battle much. Everything I can do in a sub I can do better in a destroyer, and if I am outnumbered I have a chance of beating the enemy.
I pray the overlords at Wargaming NEVER bring submarines to WoWS: Legends!!
They don't resemble submarine warfare one bit during the second world war.. Homing torpedoes are just ridiculous. Torpedoes couldn't even be depended on detonating back then, nevermind homing in on ships.
The games "Battlestations: Midway: and "Battlestations: Pacific" got submarine gameplay correct! It was difficult to use torpedoes. But it wasn't about getting a bunch of kills in a submarine. They were a support ship and they weren't going to win or lose the battle for your team.
It was the hunt that was so fun. The cat and mouse gameplay of submarine/anti-submarine warfare was so thrilling. Trying to get as close as possible while avoiding detection. Diving as deep as possible to avoid depth charges. It was so incredibly immersive.
Submarines don't need to be the main killing machines that the other ship classes are. Just make them realistic and immersive and they will be fun to play.
I wanted subs but they went overboard with this. Doesn't help WG refuses to listen to player feedback.