Bad mechanic put wrong starter on this bus. 24v on a 12v bus. Charged $1,400 (900 for the starter)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ธ.ค. 2021
- Fixing the no start issues on this bus. Starter was just replaced. After the discovery yesterday of 24v labeled on the starter we knew we found our big problem. There is still an intermittent relay issue but we are making great progress on the bus.
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I can’t think of another vocation that requires such a high level of intellect together with physical strength, agility and stamina.
I am always genuinely surprised at how many heavy-duty "mechanics" are out there who just clearly have no idea what the hell they're doing. Glad Scott and Tyler do FFS
It's amazing that these people stay in business. The liability issues alone on some of the previous brake and suspension "repairs" I've seen on this channel done by other "mechanics" would make an injury attorney salivate.
Being a master truck and equipment mechanic it passes me off when I see this happen and it happens all the time. I have had a few jobs that the people have been out several times a d never fix the problem
The more I've watched your videos, the more I've become convinced that the diesel mechanic industry is full of scammers and morons. The world needs more honest and knowledgeable diesel mechanics like you.
ALL industries have hacks. I sold auto parts, some truck, heavy hardware and rigging for 15 years, was an HVAC/R mech for about 12, and worked a few years installing telco/ radio / 911 equipment. There are hacks everywhere and I've seen my share. I tried not to be one
Having a old school machinist close by is worth their weight in gold. Hard to find the old school guys.
As a rule Wilson products are/were a huge part of the success of my rebuilding shop, keep that warranty info handy.
Scott and his honesty and experience are well worth it. 24V vs 12V starter is a big goof. Hope the bus owner gets his money back.
Your a saint for helping this man fix his issues it's great honest mechanics like you Scott that still gives us hope in mankind so many crocks out there I love watching your video's especially when you take your time to work with your customers and teach them the art of maintaining their homes on wheels.
As always I'm looking forward to learning something on my coach at your shop someday soon.
Had an owner who ran a small fleet of Triaxle dump trucks I drove for him for 6 years and was always having starter issues especially in the winter. I finally convinced him to try an air starter system by simply pointing out to run a permanent air line out to the parked trucks ( outdoors). He took the worst starting truck and installed the system and it suddenly became the best starting truck in the small fleet. After one winter he finally agreed and installed air starter systems on all the trucks. All trucks got new air compressors as well. Just an FYI the latest air starter systems will start down to 60 PSI INSTEAD OF 100 PSI the old systems required. Even if you lost air pressure I demonstrated how I the take the tire air line kept in each truck and used one tire to refill the starter air tank to start the truck then simply let the pressure build until the tire was properly inflated.
Sometimes simple solutions are easier than tracking down electrical problems.
Food for thought
Very interesting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The fact that they sound cooler doesn't hurt matters either. ;)
I converted my GM4106 8v71 to 24V system mainly for the 24V starter. It spins the 8v71 like its a 283 chevy. Doesn't hurt the alternator puts out 7kw either.
I've replaced and rebuilt so many of those pump plungers. Diesel injection in Louisville has em in stock. Well usually. Nothing is ever in stock anywhere anymore.
Now that the starter has been replaced with the correct one, the next part in the chain is the relay.
My grandfather owned a Diesel shop in Youngstown Ohio. That place has been there forever. My uncle Stu runs the place now.
Scott there is an adjustment for the throw of the solenoid, the cap at the front with the screw driver slot, remove it and in side is a 7/16 nut, there should be only about two threads showing past the nut, if there is more back the nut out. You will need to engage the solenoid to do this. remove the link between the starter and solenoid, this prevents the starter motor from cranking. The solenoid throw is over-adjusted, its too tight, and is running out of throw before the disc can connect to crank the engine. I can go into more detail if you like.
Kind of rare to read something as accurately stated as this. You have earned your stripes. Most of the time I am hearing remarks like "It must have a short in it somewhere".
@@larrywalker7759 Thanks Larry, 14 years owning and operating a two person rotating electrical shop, my wife and I and 1 training the new guy I sold the shop to. You see it all when it's just you.
Lazy mechanic screwed over a customer. One of those things that makes me so angry. Excellent work, Scott!
Your machinist friend is a very valuable asset.
The young owner seems like a very nice guy! Great to see a young person interested in the old buses. I have the same problem with mechanics who have worked on my Rolls Royces. I ALWAYS have to correct what they have messed up!
It's a damn good thing that last shop changed the starter, and not the generator!
My Dad was a garage mechanic, had a good reputation as well, hurts me to see people get hosed by bad ones. Glad there are still some good ones out there who have a youtube channel that shows them at work.
I don't know how these shady mechanics sleep at night. I feel like crap and bend over backwards when work I did goes bad for whatever reason. Be it part failure or a detaile i missed. But I make it right, no question asked.
I think at least in my country it is not only the attitude of those who educate themselves (in learning institutions) to be mechanics but also the educational system that lets them through and be non-professional mechanics. Lot to do there. But glad to see you solving those problems caused by non-professional grade people.
That fan hub likely uses that ring in the center to locate the fan perfectly centered. Think hub-centric vs lug-centric wheels. If you grind that ring off, the fan will likely be off-centered and gradually destroy the bearings in the new right angle gearbox over time from vibration. You may not even be able to feel the vibration, but the gearbox will. The "correct" way to do this would be to bore the center of the original fan hub out to the new shaft size if possible. Or machine the actual hub on the fan to accept the new larger locating ring.
sorry man we must have been typing at the same time i did not mean to repeat your comment , both are correct
i am sorry i should have read your post before i commented , i said the same thing,
I agree the locating ring is needed. But since the new hub is about 3 times as thick as the original, I think that the too-large ring can be faced off, and a second cut taken to thin the face of the hub down and create a ring of the right diameter.
I'm glad I scrolled down to see your reply, my exact thoughts!!
@@lwilton that would be my plan of attack too. Machine the face of the larger hub to include the centering ring the same diameter as the original.
If you have an old fashioned machine shop in your area, you got it made. 👍
Constantly customers are getting burned and you guys are fixing the problems.
Just a possible tip to help install a heavy part like this starter or in my cases it was flywheels. A stud in a top hole that has the same bolt size and pitch headless of course but it just becomes a stout pin to hang the heavy starter on while installing. Then put other bolts in and remove the stud and save for a later day. Be interesting to hear how the shop addresses the 24V return issue. Gary
I'd like to hear an update about what happens at the other shop as well.
I am glad to hear you are making progress. I just watched the first video a few minutes ago. $1400.00 bucks for the wrong starter. That's nuts!!!
Criminal.....as well as 'Nuts'....
the price is typical for most heavy-duty shops. here, shops charge $150-$180 per hour for labor and parts mark-up is 3.2 times the wholesale cost, so $1400 is about right. but yes, they screwed up by installing the wrong starter...
I have replaced the contacts on starter solenoids (and brushes on starter too), much cheaper than a rebuilt starter. i keep brushes and contacts for the starter and alternator in the truck when on trips. I think you are an honest mechanic and i think you know what you are doing.
You can buy just the hand primer from Cat instead of the whole filter housing Scott
You have to wonder how many people this shop has fleeced. Too much of that kind of rip-off in this world.
Thank God, there are shops out there like yours.
The pump plunger knob must be unscrewed to prime then pushed all the way down and screwed in to snug to seal. It will leak if not screwed in.
I had a similar setup with a Thomas bus cat 3208na. I found a relay (solenoid) for the starter circuit on the outside of the frame rail (inside of the C channel). It was just old and corroded but still good with a complete clean up, never gave any issues after the cleaning. Also I abandoned the hub city affair for the cooling fan and installed an electric fan, I found the hub city gears make way too much noise as it was mounted to the frame.
Probably a voltage drop on the signal circuit to the solenoid. The solenoid clicking but the starter not spinning even on the new unit.
What a beautiful sounding engine! Too bad the stinking starting issues.
Thank God the starter solved the moving the engine with a bar to start it. Hope he gets his money back. That was crazy.
Question Bus Grease Monkey: there are three oil reservoirs to lube the starter shaft bushings. Many mechanic don't check to see if the wells are full. Used engine thirty weight oil. And yes did in-house repair when parts were easy to find. Good video, real life not Hollywood.
When i was a young apprentice , my boss's , boss , he had a boat with a V8 Cat , every year , on the mooring i had to take out the starter , take it to the work shop strip it , clean it completely test it reinstall it , clean every ring gear tooth , baring over the Cat'
change all of the belts , side fit spares , then one year he dreamed up that he wanted twin turbos ,that's was fun , all of this shit on a swing mooring , in the bilge , in Auckland New Zealand , did that for 8 years , ( Forgot about the oil changes )
When my uncle owned several coaches I helped him replace a starter in a big Cummins engine. Everything went perfectly except it would not start after. We all scratched our heads and called others and it turned out the starter was miss marked for a marine application and was spinning the wrong way. No damage done. But a head scratcher for a bit.
Symptoms seems like a bad battery connection. Thanks for the video's great work!
I have put them on by myself on a V8 92 ,by putting in on ground then moving in and rolling it on to my chest then lift it with my arms it was a chore!
So would have been nice to have Jack!
That's awesome that you got a machine shop guy close to you and that will work with you
that bit your gonna machine off is hub centric it centers the fan hub precisely if you bolt the fan hub up without that it will destroy the gearbox even if you cant detect any out of balance visually the fan will probably go through the radiator when it happens maybe you can machine the fan hub so it fits the hub centric collar what ever you do must fit to that hub centric arrangement . Its the same mechanical principle used on high end car rims
Check cable ends and ground connection it sounds like a bad connection issue when you try to engage and get the loud click. Pos and negative connections 👍🖐
Never get directly under one of those starters. 42MT stater are north of 70 lbs. I heard about a guy that had one fall on him, hit him on the side of his head. He was dead before the starter quit moving. After hearing about that, I always stay off to the side and have a clear exit path if things go awry.
I got in on the live video at the last minute. It’s still great to discover the underlying issue was the wrong starter. Great work @Bus grease monkey & Customer!!
What a great fix!!! You are so kind to your customers too! I enjoy your channel.
Great job Scott and that’s a nice looking starter for sure!
Looks like ring gear is upside down. Its doing the click because ring gear is upside down. Seen it several times when guys replace ring gear
Great series Scott! At some point you should collect information for “The Hall of Shame” for all of the substandard work you and Travis have had to fix and rework! Your videos always are a good start for the day and reinforce there are still some good guys out there! Keep up the good work!
Hub City refused to sell you a mitre box. But the new mitre box from Cardinal Coach was made by Hub City...
Yep
Someone should explain “stream of commerce” to Hub City.
Address the starting circuit. Noted the sound. Notice in two starts you pressed both the button and the remote start trigger?
That remote panel may not be feeding enough current to the starter's main solenoid.
Open up that panel! You just might find a tired relay in there.
The "false start" is a sign of how the starter "bendix" or actuator is designed. The contact in that starter applies power to the motor once it travels fully forward. This prevents grinding the teeth of the flywheel.
The most recent heavy diesel starter I replaced was on a Cummins 11M. Stubborn, I hefted 60 pounds of iron. Got my day's workout for sure. Those little jacks come in handy.
I bought a "lifetime" starter for my Cummins from O'reilly 10 years ago. It was an O'Reilly-rebuilt, Chinese-made starter. The OEM is a Japanese made Denso. After replacing the O'Reilly starter 3 times (all under warranty from O'R) I got wise and bought a Denso. It's never let me down. I'll never buy a serious part from O'R again.
Check to see if there is another solenoid mounted somewhere else Sounds like the solenoid on the chassis is screwing up
My first starter replacement was on a 68 Brockway constructor dump truck and I scooted under outside on a creeper and had that starter on my chest to press it up into setvice
Looks very similar to an armored personnel carrier starter maybe a little smaller, good times
At least they got the rotation correct, another gotcha with some GM models. Air filters make rubbish mufflers.
Air filters make rubbish mufflers? I’ll have to go and watch the video from the beginning.
In any case, I totally agree with you, @Ray Gale!!
For the life of me I can’t understand why workmanship is so bad everywhere. Actually I do know, common sense and troubleshooting skills have gone completely out the window. That’s why you have a good thing going there scott. You know your stuff and are willing to pass it on. Who said knowledge isn’t power.
I'm really surprised that the 24v starter turned that engine.
Man, this poor schmuck got taken to the cleaners! At least Scott is putting it right now.
Awesome little series of videos. I love how you solve problems that a lot of mechanics would be not be inclined to remedy and that a lot of owners would think are insurmountable. I want to buy a bus with a DD now instead of a "motorhome". Maybe an older Wanderlodge would be a good compromise...Great stuff Scott. Thx.
Crazy to see how much difference 12v an 24v will do
Good knowledgeable true repair mechanics are nearly history. These guys are the real deal. There are so damn many thieves and flat out liars in this business. Dealerships are worst places as the majority of workers( not a mechanic by any means) work at these dealerships BECAUSE they can't pull their weight at a private shop. I know a guy that has been in the inside of the local General Motors and Ford places. Both over the years he said have had pathetic results with hiring knowledgeable mechanics.
there is your problem. hiring good mechanics is the wrong approach. hire people and MAKE them become good mechanics. That is how it should work. That way you only ever hire ONE good mechanic and he trains all the other ones. think trades where you have a master and everybody starts as an apprentice. companies do not want to make that investment anymore.
I was fully expecting the dance of joy when that thing started.
I was fully expecting it to start
I just bought a Daytona 3 ton floor jack similar to the one you have from Harbor Freight, used it today....works a lot better than my old Craftsman 3 ton.
Paying that kind of labor to thread 3 bolts into the bellhousing and tighten the couple terminal nuts is definitely taking the customer for a ride. I can think of only a couple vehicles where a starter is a pain in the ass job but still nowhere near worth even half of that to R&R. Older BMW's that use non-threaded hole starters are probably one of the most difficult and can usually be done with a long extension and a universal joint. Some people prefer to pull the intake manifold but most of the time it isn't necessary and just comes down to experience/ skill or preference. This Cat starter looks like one of the EASIEST ones, period. Tons of access, and no obstructions. I wish I ran the shop that could get rich off people like that. Freakin PATHETIC honestly.
Who could have guessed that a simple gearbox could be such a hassle!
I knew from the minute i heard it running that gearbox was going to be an issue. It’s been way easier than i expected honestly
The crazy part is after the "repair" they dont verify that it's fixed!
See how that works put the right parts on and it works just fine... Great Job.
You may need to shim the starter out slightly as the bendex may not have enough travel before it bottoms on the flywheel teeth. This can keep the motor contacts from engaging. The giveaway is you can hear the solenoid engagement every time. The only other issue would be bad contacts which is entirely possible even on a rebuilt starter.
I appreciate the effort yall put in
Wow, that's going to be embarrassing for the workshop that fitted the WRONG starter...
Amazing what you can do with the correct parts.
Wow... It bothers me that we get rogues working on stuff that's pulling weight like a bus motor home or truck. Stuff like that could kill people. Good job on this.
I was thinking, how hard could it be to lift a starter... Then I saw the size relative!
You really want to have faith in other shops that most do honest and good work. Sadly there seem to be more and more. Thankfully there is the Bus Grease Monkey that is good at what he does and honest and dependable. Thank you for sharing these videos!
Cummins charged a customer of mine $960.00 for a new Delco MT starter similar to the one in the video.
I hope I'm wrong but that ring gear look like it's on backwards. Worth a look.
Tampa Florida check in love your channel
The teeth on starter side are tapered and the side opposite of starter are straight cut without the taper lead in for bendix gear. This can clearly be seen at 1:05
The older buses like prevost were 24volt start but the newer cat powerd are 12 volt
another good video, keep them coming
Many...used a 12/24v system.
24 to start on a 12v system.
Delco also had a 12/24 alternator. YES !!
They can be switched to a straight 12.
I'd just put a leece Neville alt on it.
The 24v starter runs from the series. Use one of the 12v for the system.
The "bad" mechanic sumply replaced as what was originally installed.
I had to monkey out one of those 100lb starter motors on my boat once.(the solenoid was bad.) Twin 12-71Detroits.
I guess in the last video I was right....the starter... I would get my money back or if not contact the Attorney Gen in that state and move on it....That will work....The place should be named in a later vid once he gets his money back.... Great work doc...
Yep the state dept of consumer Protection can get results
Whoever it was that put the starter on the bus, ain’t got no business even doing any kind of wrenching, geez! Unfortunately there are guys like that out there, shady and none mechanic sobs, guys like that I wouldn’t let work on my bicycle. And unfortunately I’ve known a few fellas like that, that call themselves a mechanic, and I don’t associate with them anymore either!
hope he gets money back from that wrong starter.
I would like to be a bug on the wall and listen to when this bus owner comes back with the wrong starter installed on his vehicle
Thank God a for Great Bus Mechanic!
Scott must be fun to be the cheer leader on the side line helping and kidding customer i am sure you have been there a time or 2 all in good fun ! Do we know what Transit company that Thomas came from looks well used !
LOL A FRIEND OF MINE TOLD ME A STORY OF A STARTER FOR A REVERSE ROTATION FORD MARINE
ENGINE ENDED UP IN A CAR PARTS STORE!!
I’m Scott you want to give this guy a written receipt for what was done and the reason why it was done so if he tries to come back on this guy at least you’ll have written documentation and maybe even take them to small claims court
I turned wrenches for over 20 years and never once thought to look at a starter to see if it's 6 12 or 24 volts. Never got one that was incorrect aside from being completely obviously wrong for the application that is. I wouldn't throw the mechanic under the bus there's a service counter and a parts department a whole lot of blame to be spread around.
The mechanic was like....it has 2 batteries, it must be 24v 🤣
It has 3 group 31’s
Over & Over Heavy Duty repair shops are taking advantage of Bus owners.
I have never used a floor jack to install those Remy starters but they're not always a joy to do though
I think I may start. I usually just manhandle it. That looked easier.
All ways nice to over come small problem's well done all
AMAZING. Good catch.
You can buy the primer pump itself from cat. No need to replace the whole housing. As for the starter, the mechanic should have noticed the substantial weight difference between the 2. I'm surprised that it worked at all. I'm surprised that you use a jack to put it in. At 60 yrs old i still just muscle them in.
I just wonder if the battery cables could be bad. It' seems after you use starter for a little bit I think they might be getting hot an causing a lot of resistance. Just an idear!
No amount of cranking would cause a battery cable to rise in resistance enough to create a problem.
@@sw6188 a bad cable would absolutely get smoking hot. once it is hot resistance would be an issue.
@@uliwehner The only situation where resistance could be an issue would be at the connections - spade terminals etc. The cable itself could not rise enough in resistance to be a problem. It would have to be grossly undersized for that to be an issue. The typical starter motor cable of say 50 mm² has a cold resistance of 0.00034 ohms per foot. When hot, it might rise a bit but it's never going to get high enough to cause any appreciable voltage drop - not on such a short run.
$ 900 for a starter? We sell them in Europe from $ 150 12V and from $ 300 24V, but the maximum price is about $ 600
Sad to have a so called mechanic place a 24v starter in a 12v system. Definitely needs to refund the cost of his labor and price of the starter.
I believe you can replace just fuel primer mine had 2 different size bolts 7/16 and 1/2
so you really can't install it backwards
The ‘parts changer ‘ that did this to the gentleman gives us mechanics a bad name and a lot of headaches. Do you have the wobble 12 point socket for this application?
You got a Big project
Used to work for BBBind. In ca at the west coast dist. center....reman in reynosa mexico