What a pleasure to watch someone explain in first principle terms how to measure engine output. Your method would hopefully also demonstrate to youngsters the relationship between torque and horsepower, well done sir, thoroughly enjoyed you videos.
@zippy308 Yes--I might have been able to add a little more. It gets very touchy when you get to that point. Possibly could get 1 1/2 out of it. I'm still playing with it.
I had the privilage to see Amos Rixman and his Prony Brake at a tractor show at Rosebud, Mo. years ago hooked up to a steam traction engine and also to my Cat D2 with p.t.o..That steam engine sounded like music as its slow RPM pulled against the brake. He said it was pulling more torque than a semi going down the highway or a hot rod car. Thanks and stay cool at the summer shows.
Very good presentation. Thank goodness for a video with clear diction, good explanation of the science and engineering involved- and a lack of stupid music!
I recently graduated with a mechanical engineering degree. It is an utter shame demonstrations like this aren't a staple of today's education. Extremely interesting video.
Very interesting video I love learning old school information on these types of engines I’m going to try and build myself a unit like yours,thanks for info
If you're looking for the article on wikipedia, it's called "de Prony brake" there, because the guy who invented it apparently had the family name "de Prony".
Great mini series on this demonstration. I was worried that I would not see any of your excellent videos until fall. I do have one question though. It appeared that you would be able to add even more weight to the can because you were adjusting the nobs to allow some slipage. So by adding more weight into the can and also your formula, that would increase the torque which in effect would change the horsepower? Or are you not trying to find maximum hp and just see what it is capable of?
You could flip the arm around so it pushes down and use a springless scale on it. At old threshers in mt. Pleasant ia we have a prony brake there but we use a different formula we use weight x rpm divided by 1000 the scale is a fairbanks morse springless scale and also when you use yours you need to take the rpm mesurement right when you have the weight on but that might take 2 people
Great video. I always wanted to make a prony brake and take it to shows, didn't know it was so simple but I remember reading the math. Nice to have someone use the English terminology, newton-meters just doesn't sound right and sometimes you here the term lbs.-ft. which really bugs me instead of ft.-lbs. because ( I think) some one is converting from metric to English and meters-newtons doesn't sound right in metric system
Awesome video, thank you! Question: why did you consider the weight you selected to be the equilibrium point? Is it because the engine could obviously not sustain its maximum RPM while under that load? I was expecting that you were going to see if tightening the screws would cause the motor to completely come to a haunt, and if not, then add more weight. And if I understand correctly, the clamp it’s the screws allows you to let the motto turn freely and you only tighten it enough to apply some friction to the shaft, but not so tight that the prony brake spins dangerously and uncontrollably? Trying to learn now how it works so I can perform some motor torque tests..
i wish i had a reason to try this, but my life is full of small electric motors, unlike anything you show us in your great videos. still - i'm learning and it's fun. thanks :-)
Dear sir. Thanks for showing this. If you would not have done this, than I would never have known this, not that I would be unable to live, but knowledge is power.
I should have learned this in physics class back in 1966, I guess the instructor didn't think it was relevant. This is the sort of demonstration that really gets a kids attention, especially if he has an interest in mechanical things.
I really enjoy your videos. I am an industrial arts teacher. The boys in small engines are studying horsepower and brake horsepower. I think your videos are great for learning. Do you have one on a briggs and stratton engine being tested for horsepower? Thanks, Mr. Scott
Hope you are still fiddling with engines! We used to have a "Z" F&,M engine on the farm in central Cal. I restored a John Deere 1929 model "GP" orchard tractor still on "steel" ( lol) Got it when I was 12 for $25. Cost $25 to have the magneto rebuilt at the time.ran it for years for fun, ran great. Keep up the great work! Hope to see more good stuff/science. Regards, Doug
I'm confused. If you added a slightly lesser weight, but turned the clamp tighter, what would happen? Could you not find an equilibrium with a whole range of different weights, by tweaking the clamping force on the diameter? Then all those different weights would provide all different answers in the calculation. Does the heat being generated at the brake interface not need included in the calculation, or are these brakes just for getting a rough idea, and aren't expected to be as accurate as I am maybe expecting?
Good video. However I think it should be stressed that a prony break is only a rough estimation so I'm not sure if you can go down to 2 decimals. But still a great way to compare engines. Horsepower is of course a comparison unit, first derived to give farmers and other customers what they're buying (how many number of real horses).
You always have the most interesting posts! I look forward to seeing your videos in my subscription queue. I was wondering if you could do a video on setting cutting speeds for lathes and mills; that's an area that gives me trouble because I hate doing the math! I'm sure you have some old school shortcuts for that...
I enjoyed this demonstration, it was very informative. Would it be possible to measure a four stroke engine HP. Keep up your educational information projects they are very interesting.
Nice demonstration! I love all your videos. I have one question regarding the RPM. In the formula, should you use the no-load RPM or the lower RPM that results from applying the Prony Brake as a load?
Tubal Cain, Great video as always! Why is it that one does not measure the rpm right at the time when the engine is slowed down under the load of the Prony brake to the point of equilibrium (instead of running free with no load -prior to applying the Prony load) for the purposes of the formula? I must be missing something here. BTW LOL! I love the reference to the "....busier than a one legged man trying to put out a forest fire". Got a big chuckle out of that.
I am curious.. this is not a criticism it's an honest question: Why not add one more ounce (an extra nut, maybe) to that Prony brake beam, so that the beam weighs in exactly at 1 pound. It would make your calculations that much more easy. Dimensions of the aluminum output hub (3") and the thickness of the brake beam (1.5") do not make any difference, as long as they are sufficient to put a proper working load on the engine at full throttle, is that correct? LENGTH of the beam is however critical, correct? Thank you. Excellent video set!!
Wow. It´s been nice watching both of your videos. I was looking for ideas on how to use the Prony brake(which I've heard of so many years ago at the school) to find out how much power does an small motorcycle have by measuring the power by braking the rear (driving) wheel. Not because I need to, but for fun, I'm willing to perform a couple modifications to the engine to gain a little more power and I need a way of measuring what works and what doesn't. You know, nowadays guys go to tunning shops whom own pretty fancy expensive dinamometers, no doubt they're much more flexible and precise, yet these "old school" methods apply the same old principles. I'm sure if one is careful enough -like yourself- measurings must result pretty much the same like the one would get out of the fancy expensive tools. BTW in case you wonder I'm in Argentina, so I apologize for my funny English (not my mother tongue, apologies) Thanks a lot!
Excellent video! Let's see, it's holding 4.55 lbs at 31.5" (2.625'), so it's generating almost 12 ft/lbs of torque. Since hp = (torque * rpm) / 5252, that yields 1.08 hp. Not too far off from the Prony brake, and I'm sure it'd load down more at full throttle with a bit more weight. Not bad at all for an engine that old! Add to that all the kinetic energy stored in the flywheels, which is mind-staggering BTW, and you have an engine capable of doing some serious work! While sipping gas.
As i understand it really doesn´t matter much which type of wood you use (excerpt for it´s stability). What you want here, is to know exactly how much the engine can lift, at a set distance. If your wood has higher friction, you´d simply have to loosen the wingnuts to let it slide, and vice versa. You could use a metal-rod instead of wood as your weightarm, but the reason for the relatively thin woodstick, is that it´ll break if you loose control, and it swings all the way around. Was it made from metal, chances are that you´d have the engine dancing around...like a onelegged man, trying to stomp out a forestfire ;-)
Thanks for sharing this! I plan on building an experimental steam motor and an improved steam turbine, and this will let me test the horsepower myself.
Love all the videos of yours that I have seen. I especially enjoy the explanations of why stuff works the way it does. In answer to the last post, does not the Proney brake add the load to the engine?
Shouldn't the calculation use the "under load" RPM once the brake arm and weight reach a balanced condition instead of the free RPM? If you don't, then you could tighten the two crankshaft bolts farther (more friction), which would then require more weight to reach a balanced condition, and you'd get a completely different horsepower number.
The word "dynamometer" brings to mind using a belt driven generator instead of a prony brake. It would not be that long (in terms of history) before electrical generators would be developed after the steam/gas engines and prony brake. In the *dynamometer* measurement idea, an electrical generator is wired to a bank of resistors (light bulbs) in order to put a variable 'electrical load' on the generator. The loaded generator would, in turn, put a torque (load) onto the engine's shaft. By adjusting the number of lights (resistors) connected to the generator's circuit, the maximum engine torque can be applied without the engine losing speed (from its rated speed). The electrical output from the generator at this max point, would, in Kilowatts be a measurement of the engine's horsepower ( 0.7457 KW = 1 HP). There are small power losses associated with a belt drive; so, for the most accurate measurement, the dynamometer (i.e.: generator-bank of adjustable resistors) needs to be directly connected to the shaft of the engine. But still, with a belt driven, home-made dynamometer, it would interesting to *compare* the horsepower measurements using both of these techniques on the engine/s.
I've always known what brake horsepower meant but never seen it demonstrated. Call me obsessive tho, but it bothers me that you didn't measure RPM under load. Not enough hands I guess.
I love your videos, however, you need to measure the RPM while the engine is under load. It noticeably dragged down when you applied the load. The free, unloaded RPM will give erroneous results of a higher HP than the engine is actually producing. EDIT: Oops, just saw that you took a measurement under load. Left my comment since I still needed to say that I like your videos. Great demonstrations.
Starting my engineering apprenticeship next month, your videos are really inspiring. Thanks.
What a pleasure to watch someone explain in first principle terms how to measure engine output. Your method would hopefully also demonstrate to youngsters the relationship between torque and horsepower, well done sir, thoroughly enjoyed you videos.
Great videos, surprised I haven't ran into them before. Except that you have so many great videos to watch! Thank you, sir!
@zippy308 Yes--I might have been able to add a little more. It gets very touchy when you get to that point. Possibly could get 1 1/2 out of it. I'm still playing with it.
I had the privilage to see Amos Rixman and his Prony Brake at a tractor show at Rosebud, Mo. years ago hooked up to a steam traction engine and also to my Cat D2 with p.t.o..That steam engine sounded like music as its slow RPM pulled against the brake. He said it was pulling more torque than a semi going down the highway or a hot rod car. Thanks and stay cool at the summer shows.
Very good presentation. Thank goodness for a video with clear diction, good explanation of the science and engineering involved- and a lack of stupid music!
Thanks. Yes, not sure why people use music. Reminds of discovery channel and their over produced programs with annoying sound effects.
Another great set of videos from Tubalcain. Thanks for posting.
Once again; Excellent quality explanation of the Prony Brake. Healthy little engine!
I recently graduated with a mechanical engineering degree. It is an utter shame demonstrations like this aren't a staple of today's education. Extremely interesting video.
Watched parts one and two! Wonderful videos. Very interesting. Its clear you know what you are talking about. Thank you!
Very interesting video I love learning old school information on these types of engines I’m going to try and build myself a unit like yours,thanks for info
Thank you!
Thanks Tubalcain - certainly interesting. Wasn't expecting a video from you for a while yet... Hope you are enjoying summer.
I am so glad that you took a break from your summer to post this video. I was having withdrawls.
If you're looking for the article on wikipedia, it's called "de Prony brake" there, because the guy who invented it apparently had the family name "de Prony".
Another good one Tubalcain.. Thanks for showing how it is done. Stay Cool.
Very interesting! I've never heard of this process before.
People sure had brains before there were 'apps' that did their thinking for them.
Great mini series on this demonstration. I was worried that I would not see any of your excellent videos until fall. I do have one question though. It appeared that you would be able to add even more weight to the can because you were adjusting the nobs to allow some slipage. So by adding more weight into the can and also your formula, that would increase the torque which in effect would change the horsepower? Or are you not trying to find maximum hp and just see what it is capable of?
You could flip the arm around so it pushes down and use a springless scale on it. At old threshers in mt. Pleasant ia we have a prony brake there but we use a different formula we use weight x rpm divided by 1000 the scale is a fairbanks morse springless scale and also when you use yours you need to take the rpm mesurement right when you have the weight on but that might take 2 people
Thank you! I have enjoyed all your videos. Please keep them coming
Very nice demo of how that works. I have wondered that from time to time.
Thanks! I all ways enjoy your videos.
M.W.
Great video. I always wanted to make a prony brake and take it to shows, didn't know it was so simple but I remember reading the math. Nice to have someone use the English terminology, newton-meters just doesn't sound right and sometimes you here the term lbs.-ft. which really bugs me instead of ft.-lbs. because ( I think) some one is converting from metric to English and meters-newtons doesn't sound right in metric system
Awesome video, thank you! Question: why did you consider the weight you selected to be the equilibrium point? Is it because the engine could obviously not sustain its maximum RPM while under that load? I was expecting that you were going to see if tightening the screws would cause the motor to completely come to a haunt, and if not, then add more weight. And if I understand correctly, the clamp it’s the screws allows you to let the motto turn freely and you only tighten it enough to apply some friction to the shaft, but not so tight that the prony brake spins dangerously and uncontrollably? Trying to learn now how it works so I can perform some motor torque tests..
i wish i had a reason to try this, but my life is full
of small electric motors, unlike anything you show us
in your great videos. still - i'm learning and it's fun.
thanks :-)
Dear sir.
Thanks for showing this. If you would not have done this, than I would never have known this, not that I would be unable to live, but knowledge is power.
Marcel Timmers
Marcel Timmers Thanks for watching
I commend you sir.
For ONCE,I have actually seen a H&M engine actually running under load....
Thank you sir for sharing this video..
Very interesting and informative video, thank you for taking the time to do this.
+Nicholas Kotsidis thanks
I should have learned this in physics class back in 1966, I guess the instructor didn't think it was relevant. This is the sort of demonstration that really gets a kids attention, especially if he has an interest in mechanical things.
Yes
Very interesting. I have a book on gas and oil engines written in 1910, it explains how this should be done. I'll have to try it.
Very interesting : )
Great interesting vids Mate!
Would measuring the torque simply be multiplying the length of the lever by the weight on the end?
Regards, Jas.
I really enjoy your videos. I am an industrial arts teacher. The boys in small engines are studying horsepower and brake horsepower. I think your videos are great for learning. Do you have one on a briggs and stratton engine being tested for horsepower? Thanks, Mr. Scott
If you goosed that engine's gov. up to it's rated 500 RPM then it looks to me like you would have been VERY close to the rated HP
Hope you are still fiddling with engines! We used to have a "Z" F&,M engine on the farm in central Cal. I restored a John Deere 1929 model "GP" orchard tractor still on "steel" ( lol) Got it when I was 12 for $25. Cost $25 to have the magneto rebuilt at the time.ran it for years for fun, ran great. Keep up the great work! Hope to see more good stuff/science. Regards, Doug
I do still play with them occasionally
I'm confused. If you added a slightly lesser weight, but turned the clamp tighter, what would happen? Could you not find an equilibrium with a whole range of different weights, by tweaking the clamping force on the diameter? Then all those different weights would provide all different answers in the calculation. Does the heat being generated at the brake interface not need included in the calculation, or are these brakes just for getting a rough idea, and aren't expected to be as accurate as I am maybe expecting?
This is very cool!, I was familiar with the prony brake from books, but had never seen one in actual operation. I may have to make one now.
Good video. However I think it should be stressed that a prony break is only a rough estimation so I'm not sure if you can go down to 2 decimals. But still a great way to compare engines. Horsepower is of course a comparison unit, first derived to give farmers and other customers what they're buying (how many number of real horses).
Sweet little engine you have there. Ever think about hooking it to a modern dyno and comparing results with your prony brake?
I have also seen where a spring scale is used instead of weights on the end of the brake.
Very cool, and nicely explained!
You always have the most interesting posts! I look forward to seeing your videos in my subscription queue. I was wondering if you could do a video on setting cutting speeds for lathes and mills; that's an area that gives me trouble because I hate doing the math! I'm sure you have some old school shortcuts for that...
I enjoyed this demonstration, it was very informative. Would it be possible to measure a four stroke engine HP. Keep up your educational information projects they are very interesting.
Nice demonstration! I love all your videos. I have one question regarding the RPM. In the formula, should you use the no-load RPM or the lower RPM that results from applying the Prony Brake as a load?
thanks for the demo of simple single force prony brake dynomometer
Tubal Cain,
Great video as always! Why is it that one does not measure the rpm right at the time when the engine is slowed down under the load of the Prony brake to the point of equilibrium (instead of running free with no load -prior to applying the Prony load) for the purposes of the formula? I must be missing something here.
BTW LOL! I love the reference to the "....busier than a one legged man trying to put out a forest fire". Got a big chuckle out of that.
Old school at it's finest
👍👍
Thanks for posting this method. Never heard of it.
I am curious.. this is not a criticism it's an honest question:
Why not add one more ounce (an extra nut, maybe) to that Prony brake beam, so that the beam weighs in exactly at 1 pound. It would make your calculations that much more easy.
Dimensions of the aluminum output hub (3") and the thickness of the brake beam (1.5") do not make any difference, as long as they are sufficient to put a proper working load on the engine at full throttle, is that correct?
LENGTH of the beam is however critical, correct?
Thank you. Excellent video set!!
Very informative!! Bravo!!
Thank you for these videos, so informative
Glad you like them!
Wow. It´s been nice watching both of your videos. I was looking for ideas on how to use the Prony brake(which I've heard of so many years ago at the school) to find out how much power does an small motorcycle have by measuring the power by braking the rear (driving) wheel. Not because I need to, but for fun, I'm willing to perform a couple modifications to the engine to gain a little more power and I need a way of measuring what works and what doesn't.
You know, nowadays guys go to tunning shops whom own pretty fancy expensive dinamometers, no doubt they're much more flexible and precise, yet these "old school" methods apply the same old principles. I'm sure if one is careful enough -like yourself- measurings must result pretty much the same like the one would get out of the fancy expensive tools. BTW in case you wonder I'm in Argentina, so I apologize for my funny English (not my mother tongue, apologies)
Thanks a lot!
Thank you, good comments. Your English is just fine
Excellent video! Let's see, it's holding 4.55 lbs at 31.5" (2.625'), so it's generating almost 12 ft/lbs of torque. Since hp = (torque * rpm) / 5252, that yields 1.08 hp. Not too far off from the Prony brake, and I'm sure it'd load down more at full throttle with a bit more weight.
Not bad at all for an engine that old! Add to that all the kinetic energy stored in the flywheels, which is mind-staggering BTW, and you have an engine capable of doing some serious work! While sipping gas.
Ok. I am confused. This all depends on friction at the hub and the 2x wood how do we know what that is? Hopefully i am missing something simple here.
As i understand it really doesn´t matter much which type of wood you use (excerpt for it´s stability).
What you want here, is to know exactly how much the engine can lift, at a set distance.
If your wood has higher friction, you´d simply have to loosen the wingnuts to let it slide, and vice versa.
You could use a metal-rod instead of wood as your weightarm, but the reason for the relatively thin woodstick, is that it´ll break if you loose control, and it swings all the way around.
Was it made from metal, chances are that you´d have the engine dancing around...like a onelegged man, trying to stomp out a forestfire ;-)
sir can we test prony brake dynamometer for single cylinder SI engine if so what should be the length of lever
@tzampini The loaded RPM.
Thanks for sharing this! I plan on building an experimental steam motor and an improved steam turbine, and this will let me test the horsepower myself.
+Mark Stockman thanks
This is awesome sir. We enjoyed it as much as you! :)
mrpete222 I wish to know how you view the future of combustion engines demise?
Love all the videos of yours that I have seen. I especially enjoy the explanations of why stuff works the way it does.
In answer to the last post, does not the Proney brake add the load to the engine?
Yes-it is the load
Thank you tubalcain!
when testing do you go full throttle?
Shouldn't the calculation use the "under load" RPM once the brake arm and weight reach a balanced condition instead of the free RPM? If you don't, then you could tighten the two crankshaft bolts farther (more friction), which would then require more weight to reach a balanced condition, and you'd get a completely different horsepower number.
5.44lb x 2.625ft = 14.28 ft/lb of torque ?
The word "dynamometer" brings to mind using a belt driven generator instead of a prony brake. It would not be that long (in terms of history) before electrical generators would be developed after the steam/gas engines and prony brake. In the *dynamometer* measurement idea, an electrical generator is wired to a bank of resistors (light bulbs) in order to put a variable 'electrical load' on the generator. The loaded generator would, in turn, put a torque (load) onto the engine's shaft. By adjusting the number of lights (resistors) connected to the generator's circuit, the maximum engine torque can be applied without the engine losing speed (from its rated speed). The electrical output from the generator at this max point, would, in Kilowatts be a measurement of the engine's horsepower ( 0.7457 KW = 1 HP).
There are small power losses associated with a belt drive; so, for the most accurate measurement, the dynamometer (i.e.: generator-bank of adjustable resistors) needs to be directly connected to the shaft of the engine. But still, with a belt driven, home-made dynamometer, it would interesting to *compare* the horsepower measurements using both of these techniques on the engine/s.
Thanks
Honestly I'm surprised it wasn't well over 1.5hp. Didn't they measure HP differently back then? I thought so.
great video
always wondered how this was done before the modern dyno.
Nice job!
excellent work sir! thank you so much
+Nikhil S thanks
Great video!
Thank you, hardly anyone watched it
I think you need to take the RPM measurement when the motor is under load from the Proney break.
He explained the took the RPM with the load on before he recorded because he had help and there was no one helping him when he recorded the video.
I figger the numbers you have on the card I came up with 1,292 you had 1.36 why the difference ?
I've always known what brake horsepower meant but never seen it demonstrated. Call me obsessive tho, but it bothers me that you didn't measure RPM under load. Not enough hands I guess.
Great video, but I do see great potential for injury here. Oh well, no risk, no reward, no excitement no entertainment.
Brilliant.
schwags1969 Thanks you
good job
+Bachir KARRACHAI THANKS
I love your videos, however, you need to measure the RPM while the engine is under load. It noticeably dragged down when you applied the load.
The free, unloaded RPM will give erroneous results of a higher HP than the engine is actually producing.
EDIT: Oops, just saw that you took a measurement under load. Left my comment since I still needed to say that I like your videos. Great demonstrations.
15 lb/ft of torque...that engine is a little workhorse!
Nice set up you have. I've never seen it done before. Bu I think your calculations are off. I come up with 1.292 hp useing your numbers.
next time use a fish scale, and read the actual rpm, and you can do several points on the graph like a modern dyno.
IF the engine was turning at it's rated 500 RPM that would have turned out to be much closer to the 1 1/2 HP
T=up
ok