The French "snuff box" breech-loader. 1853/67 Tabatière with firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ส.ค. 2021
- We have a special episode for you all today as Keeper of Firearms and Artillery, Jonathan Ferguson looks at the Model 1853 muzzle-loading musket and its successor, the 1853/67 Tabatière or 'snuff box' breech-loading rifle.
Jonathan has been working with our good friends over at Real Time History to explore some of the firearms from the 1870-71 Franco-Prussian War.
Head over to the Real Time History channel for a day-by-day account of the war and for a second dose of Jonathan talking about the Tabatière: • Video
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Thanks for stopping by Jonathan and showing our fans a lesser known rifle of the time!
Just been at the royal armouries today, it is really a great museum and I definitely recommend it if u are in Leeds, I was hoping to meet with Mr Ferguson, but I have been told he is not on the museum floors as much mostly because of COVID restrictions
Sorry! To be fair, Collections staff are usually behind the scenes anyway. I've bumped into a few people outside though.
@@jonathanferguson1211 I understand, and all of u guys are doing a great work there ps: I also bought your book and I can’t wait to read it properly
Its a great Museum, one visit is just not enough. I hope they re start the various floor talks they used to do. They were fantastic.
I hope you wore your mask and stayed 6 feet apart and are fully vaccinated five times over
Really must find the time to go down to Leeds! Seriously want to visit the museum!
Love the Matt Easton callout, i see you are a scolar and a gentleman
He's a distinguished gentleman
I dunno if the cadence and mannerism is a recurring Englishman thing but this guy seems like the Matt Easton of guns honestly.
Point of order, I'm pretty sure Matt Easton's double entendres are no longer unintentional!
He likes to slip one in as much as possible.
I love the Snider, it's my favorite rifle. Seeing a French rifle based on the same system is interesting.
Snider's very nice, but to me Martini Henry is the big guy on the block.
@@blueband8114 The MH is a better rifle in every way, yes. But I love the musket-look of the Snider yet with rifling and breechloading. Those short-lived musket refit rifles are a really interesting period of firearms history to me.
@@blueband8114 The rolling block, if you will
Just wanted you to know, Mr Johnathan Ferguson sir, I first discovered you on the GameSpot channel series you host ever since the first few episodes.
I have since followed you back to the Royal Armouries channel and have fallen in love with your passion for historical (and modern) firearms :)
Thank you for your magnificent work and knowledge, truly!
The 1853 musket fired a Nessler bullet rather than round ball. It was basically a proto-shotgun slug. It gave slightly better performance.
Ahh,thanks so much for that,it was my first question,I have a amberg 61 cal 1850 carbine and this gives me a sniff that it could fire a conical.?..
@@benrobertson7855 Hmm .61“ is about 15mm. Could be a Dornstutzen or Dornbüchse (aka tige/thouvenin rifle). It will certainly fire a conical bullet. Is there a short rod in the breech? A good clue is the shape of the face of the ramrod, normally the cavity matches the shape of the nose of the bullet.
I have access to one of these converted to 12 GA, no rifling.
Cut down barel and stock gun is still the size of a normal shotgun hahahaha after who knows how much was cut off.
stamped HUNTER
Stock is broken and wired together!
Plunger firing pin is long gone and a cut down nail instead replaces it
Such a cool old gun.
What's the French version of "bubba"?
@@rootbeerpoptart buebbaie
@@rootbeerpoptart We don't have a dedicated word for it, we just say "bricolé" (DIYed), "mutilé" (mutilated), or any synonymous or related words.
Zulu shotgun as they are known
I also pick up a Zulu 12ga. Mine is cut to 19" and is in great shape. I was always curious what the parent rifle was as i could get much more info, other than bought and choped in Belgium and sold to Sears.
I have one of these converted in Paris during the Franco-Prussian War. If you find one conversion in brass, check the serial number. The city was under seige, and the brass came from church bells. I own one of these later converted to 12 guage shotgun. It shoots well with black powder shells.
Thanks Jonathan and team. That was really interesting to see. I'm sure Fabian ("The Chap") from Bloke on the Range would really enjoy visiting your reserve collection.
Reserve collection full of french rifles? That reminds me of someone.... Huh, for a moment I just thought I saw a flash of long hair and magnificent mustache around the corner, but it must by my mind playing tricks on me...
Yes; I've invited Bloke (and by extension, Chap) to visit when they can.
@@janhulek785 Someone check the inventory of 7.65mm French Long.
Thank God for Jonathan Ferguson
Keep it up! Love the Video!
Elegant looking things, and beautiful condition of course . Also, I often wondered why bayonets were angled like that, so thanks for clearing that up.
I have one of these I shoot black powder 12 gauge shells in it. Never knew what it was. Thanks for showing it
Superb as always, thanks for all you do to show interesting pieces of firearm history.
My father has one of those, you can make cartridges for it with cut-down 12-gauge cartridges.
French rifle? It's strange ian from forgotten weapons hasn't shown up yet
I did some audio analysis and it turns out that what sounds like background hiss is actually Ian's moustache brushing up against the door as he sniffs the essences of the rifle thru the cracks.
@@keithklassen5320 even if that's not him, his spirit is present in the video
Keep going legend 👍🏻
Smoothbore rifle? These French were crazy!
A rifle is in german language today a Büchse, but in very old days , all kind of firearms and cannons could habe been a Büchse.
Remarkable condition for those guns.
I would be very excited to be in that firearms store as well !!
Love going to Leeds Royal Armory
Love all your videos, but a thumbs up for the Matt Easton ref too Jonathan.
It would be good to see a Samain rifle too. The real last ditch breechloading 1870 War conversion of pretty well every French musket from the Year IX flintlock onwards. Very clever production engineering but of very variable quality depending on the maker.
I looked up Jacob Snider in Wikipedia and found that he died in London virtually penniless in October 1866 after failing to receive payment from the British for his work.
Happy to see an homemade weapon on the channel :)
I'm hoping to go north later in the year. Very keen to visit
I would love to see Jonathan look at the use of firearms in film and TV. I have a few things in mind like BBC's Sharpe, and Stargate
He has done some streams about guns in movies. th-cam.com/video/K7cbHKpX32A/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/AQqZ6LTHYJY/w-d-xo.html
Since we're on French Firearms how about a video on the famas?
Would love to see you talk about modern day firearms if you can
Cool
It’d be neat to have Ferguson go into the series of Machine Guns made by John Browning, starting with the ‘potato digger’, moving along to the M1917, then the M1919, M2HB, so on so forth
Don't forget the M1918 with a whole lot of its variants, topped up by the FN MAG.
John! We need a close up and in depth high quality video of an original Baker rifle, I have never seen a TH-cam video of an original at all. Would be fascinating for all the Sharpe fans out there.
Rifles to me
I'm French. All our archive are on gallica. You can found a lot of stuff on it. Like manual & newspaper from this era.
Seeing as it has a firing pin, rather than a needle and doesn't have a nipple for a percussion cap, I'm assuming it fired true self-contained cartridges? That would make it in some ways more advanced than the Chassepot, even if the ballistics were inferior. I believe the needles on the Chassepot needed replacing regularly, so having a firing pin instead might have made the Tabatiere a bit more reliable. I wish there was a bit more info about the ammunition here.
Sort of. I've read about French Potte model 1861 cartrige with cardboard case and central-placed primer. Unfortunately, there was no any illustration, but I think the primer was inside case, and firing pin has to go through cardboard to strike the primer. So, it was something more modern-looking, then paper cartriges, but not much.
BTW French snuff boxes are feminine so it is a ‘tabatt-ee-err’ not a ‘tabatt-ee-any’. Post 1870 War nearly all were sold off cheap to Belgian dealers who had them bored out or re barrelled to 12 bore and sold cheaply by the tens of thousands to the USA market as bottom of the market breechloading shotguns and marketed as the ‘Zulu’ shotgun but had no connections with Africa. So popular that, when supplies of surplus Tabatiere breeches ran out, the Belgians made their own. One modern issue with the Zulu is that they were made for black powder cartridges but many have had the receiver stretched by the use of modern smokeless cartridges.
Fair enough, with a muzzle velocity of 300m/s, at 600m you'd probably be safe behind a good thick greatcoat, but studies in the 50's found that 80% of WW2 effective fire had been at 200yd or less.
The wartime Sten threw a 9mm round at about 365 m/s, the Tabtiere a bullet twice as big - and heavy - at 300 m/s
At close range that bullet is seriously going to spoil your day.
There are photos or drawings of the wounds caused by these sorts of firearms somewhere, I believe I saw one even on the Wiki - and they're terrible. Chunks of flesh torn out of the body, just a horrible sight. There's a reason why the turn to smaller calibre and than smokeless cartridges was seen as humane - in that highly hypocritical Victorian sense, of course. Who would've thought that this move will end up with low-impulse intermediate cartriges which basically do the same thing but with much less recoil and smoke?..
This video makes me want a pasty.
A matt Easton shoutout? Based.
.69 caliber? Nice.
This is like the 45acp vs the 9mm fudd talk
Smooth bore rifle? How does that work?
You've gone from "Look at the back end" to "It has a swollen butt"
Wait, wasn't that time ghost? And real time picked it up after it finished?
Sometimes a Tabatière is found with a bronze receiver. It was said that these receivers were made from melted down church bells. The story goes that at the time the French Republic Government was short of raw materials, and in a panic to make more modern firearms to fight the Prussians they turned to church bells as a source of metal. After the end of the Franco Prussian War large numbers of Tabatière were sold as surplus, and Belgian arms makers bought them and converted them to 12ga shotguns for the American market. They sold for around $3.00. Some are marked "Zulu". This gave them an "exotic" air, not because they were used in the British Zulu wars, (which they weren't).
Quite popular in US in late 19th and early 20th century. The old ads and listings from mail order houses of that time. Numerous old photos of farmers, moonshiners, native Americans and other of era with them. Even now, they're encountered at gun shows, most people not knowing history of them and prices quite reasonable. An unaltered Tabatiere by contrast quite rare and brings high value. Occasionally, a cut down, two banded version, sometimes with bands nickle plated, stocks well finished and barrels blued are encountered, supposedly as ceremonial guns for lodges, clubs and such, but can't find source of this info.
@@doraran2138; several years ago I barrelled one of these old actions with a .357 barrel. I made a stock and hardware, and it made a cute single shot carbine, but I only shoot .38 Special cartridges in it.
Technically "Real Time History" had little to do with producing the Great War as that is the company founded by some former employees of Timeghost and Mediacraft who did produce it, after those companies left the production at reaching the Armistice. They came in afterwards with the change of Presenters from Indy to Jesse and have stood as producers for Rhineland, Glory&Defeat and all the other uploads on the channel since 2019, while Timeghost went on to make "Between Two Wars" (Seasons 1 and 2 "Zeitgeist"), the Suez Crisis and now Word War II in real time. including the 80 year Pearl Harbour Special in 24 hours last December.
any information about the zulu shotgun conversion after the war?
Do you have a hybrid pistol called a le mat
My god is it me or is that musket MASSIVE?
Still using black powder, so to get the power, you needed a long barrel for all the powder to burn up.
She's a long one for sure
@@BradyBegeman and more importantly, when firing volleys in close ranks you need a barrel so long that the third rank can stick their guns out past the heads of the first rank and not kill their comrades.
You actually need a crazy amount of gunpowder to gain any ballistic advantage from such a long barrel, I suspect those stubby cartridges Jonathan described would give higher velocity from about half the barrel length as friction takes over when pressure drops. Pressure drop with bullet travel is very significant in large bores, as the volume behind the bullet increases so much.
Wow such a great example, amazing to think the stories it could tell. Unfortunately they'd all be in French.
Back in the 1970's, my father found one of these when he and his friend were tearing out an old 1890's outhouse (loo) - on a hill side in south eastern Pennsylvania - very heavy rust - most wood is gone.... BUT it's been cut like a pistol - would I be ruining anything if I worked on removing rust?
Thanks
gun jesus sensed a disturbance in the force when this video was posted
How many socket bayonets were created for rifles that could still be used while firing?
Proto Ring Bayonets?
I’m pretty sure Schneider was just Snyder wearing a pencil mustache
I've never thought that a nation so advanced in terms of firearms as the mid-nineteenth century France issued their rifles unrifled for a time!
4:36 I was always amazed by how Western nations retained these old musket calibres well into the XIX century. Russia converted to 15.24 mm (.600) calibre all the way at the beginning of the XVIII century and had no trouble with occasionally opposing armoured cavalry here and there without the trouble of higher recoil, bigger weight and other problems of large calibre.
Ballistics of large-caliber, muzzle-loading rifles were terrible, so they were accurate at long distances (over 200 meters) only with a good estimate of the target distance. Therefore, determining the distance was the main point of 19th century marksmanship training. Of course, privates received such training only in specialized light infantry units such as Jagers or Chasseurs, in the line infantry only officers and NCO's were trained, and they provided sight settings on command. Despite this, in conditions where even an error of 50 meters meant a miss, hitting a moving target(for example infantry advancing in two rank line) at a long distance was a matter of luck. In such conditions, the French believed that rifled weapons were not needed for line infantry, because long-range firefights were ineffective anyway. And, 15,24mm(6 lines) were a caliber of Russian Minie rifles adopted after a Crimean War(model 1856 marksman rifle, model 1858 infantry rifle and model 1860 dragoon rifle), later converted to Krnka and other systems breechloaders. Russian XVIII century smoothbores were in typical about 18mm caliber, during Napoleonic wars they copied a French model 1777 musket and standarized all long weapons to 17,78mm or 7 lines, also after Crimean War they rifled existing 7-line muskets and carbines and used it with Minie balls.
@@gallanonim1379 As far as I'm aware the French adopted their first wide-issue line infantry rifles in 1840s, based on experiences of their conquest of Algeria.
Russian eighteenth century smoothbores were more like 19- or 20-mm calibre, but I was talking about rifles, where the 6-line (15.24 mm) calibre was standardised by Peter the Great way back in 1721.
@@F1ghteR41 After conquest of Algieria French army adopted rifles, but only to light infantry - Chasseurs, before they not used rifles in army at all. Even their chamber and pillar breech rifles were named "carabine de chasseur", their line infantry regiments were still armed with smoothbores, they only adopted Nessler ball to improve acurracy. French army transformed line infantry weapons to rifles in 1860s', after battle of Solferino
@@gallanonim1379 Weren't voltigeurs & similar light infantry armed with rifles (Carabine de Versailles Mle 1793 and later An XII) all the way back during the Napoleonic wars?
@@F1ghteR41 Voltigeurs were not a light infantry, but just one of six companies of line infantry battalion, trained to eventually fight in open order, armed with smoothbores like all infantry. Real light infantry in French army were Chasseurs, and they are also armed with smoothbores, Mle 1793 rifle was very rare, only about 2000 pieces were produced. In general, French post-revolutionary infantry tactics favored movement over fire
So sad that you Have to fill out a form to even look at those .
But I do enjoy your videos sir .
British gun Jesus
Ah, Johnathan is also a schola, and a gladiatoria
Watching you wave the bayonet around made me anxious you would accidentally clip a rifle behind you or punch a hole in the ceiling
Glad you didn’t 😂
Actually the patent is not by the same person at all
Since you have almost one of everything does that mean you have a Fedorov Auvtomat?
Yup they have one. Forgotten weapons have a video or two with one and its the one from this place.
Love your stuf, you need however a camera man and a mic
Thank you! I have a (decent) mic, but museum stores and conference rooms are pretty echoey, unfortunately (it's also hard to stay within the mic's optimum range when wrangling guns). We're working on the camera...
Thank god it’s Wednesday
If there's ever a zombie apocalypse at least now I know where to get lots of guns
Not sure if they'd work though lol
Why did the French invest in good sights for their muskets and early rifles while other states/forces did not? Who was it in the French government that endorsed this? Was it a particular branch of the military; was it the manufacturers?
French policy was to have rundimentary sights for line infantry but they were always fixed and very little marksmanship training was done since the tactic was very much still massed volley fire and a good bayonet charge. Only elite units were issued with and trained on rifles with adjustable sights. Only with the advent of the Chassepot do adjustable sights become universal but sadly tactics remain essentially unchanged until WWI.
Me:How many mosques did you have in the back?
Jonathan: Yes.
Jokes aside how many the original 1853 can reach in damage range with the original barrel?
Does anyone have a comment on the brass receiver versions of these? I've read that the brass came from melted down church bells, and that these conversions happened during a siege (Paris perhaps?). I remain sceptical about this myself, it sounds like another gun myth that has gotten repeated without any scrutiny.
.69 calibre, fat lead, that's hot
I'm so blind I could not shoot 600 meters with this.
Very odd seeing a trigger that curved on a french rifle
Ian McCollum is extremely jealous of Jonathan right now
Rather quite happy for him.
I weep bitter tears when I see what your "museums" are doing with all that nice firearms - damaging them so they can't shoot. In my country, we keep them fully functional for possible tests. Btw, are you also purposefully blunting swords, sabres and spontons?
algo-jazz
Sights on a musket. Next they’ll put sniper scopes on shotguns
Oh they very much do that. Soviet KS-23 was issued with an old PU sniper scope: originally it was thought of as a teargas grenade launcher for suppression of prison riots, and the optical sight would boost you precision when aiming into the cell window from a safe distance.
French weaponry huh? Where is Ian from forgotten weapons?
I see those Breech loaders a good bit, I’ve always heard them called “ Zulu “ guns probably because of being associated with Africa.
Never sell for much
Seen a few with brass receiver, they are more desirable
Only the French can adopt a metallic cartridge breech loader and just use the Chassepot paper cartridge like it nothing 😒
you should invest in a camera monkey that sometimes makes a witty remark
Glorified handgun ballistics
hi !!!
i want ask to you, why don't you stay sitdown behind a table, and put the gun on the table and show them to us so on it, instead to stay always standup and shake the guns from right to left and then the other way around ?!? 😁 why ... stay quiet
Fajny film