Thomas Cranmer's great treatise called " The Defence of the True and Catholic Doctrine of the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ" is also a great explanation in a polemical sense of a Reformed perspective on the Lord's Supper. This was presented liturgically especially in the 1552 Book of Common Prayer and dogmatically in Article XXVIII of the Thirty Nine Articles. I suspect that Watson's book is more easily understood than Cranmer's, but they both appear to convey similar views.
@@TruthUnites In connection with Cranmer's works and his view on the eucharist I highly recommend an article written by Daniel Marrs "Real Presence, Spiritual Presence: Assessing Thomas Cranmer's Appropriation of St. Ambrose's Eucharistic Doctrine" which demonstrates that Ambrose though often cited by Roman Catholics, is closer to Cranmer's and the reformed view. The article is available online.
@@aericabison23 majority of western churches do (Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican etc.) It tends to be reformed, baptist's, evangelicals and the like that don't.
I've been a born again Believer for more than 30 years. I'm no scholar, but I do love the Word. The Holy Spirit is always with us, but there is an extra special presence when we gather to together for the Lord's Supper. How it happens is a mystery, but there is a deeper communion when we all meditate on Christ and his sacrifice at the same time. I like the notion that we are in a sense, transported to the throne room of God.
Thank you for this, Gavin! I come from a Lutheran perspective and have thought too lowly of how real you view the presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. It's a pleasant surprise to hear you be so clear about this: We receive Christ!
I grew up in a purely memorialist tradition. I’ve been comfortably in the reformed camp of soteriology, ecclesiasology, and baptism for a while. This has helped me understand more of what I’m realizing I do believe regarding the Lords Table.
"This has helped me understand more of what I’m realizing I do believe regarding the Lords Table." GO with scripture and the full 2000 years of Christianity. *SCRIPTURE:* 51 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” *SCRIPTURE:* 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” *SCRIPTURE:* 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *SCRIPTURE:* 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. *SCRIPTURE:* 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. *SCRIPTURE:* 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. *SCRIPTURE:* 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. St Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of St John, the very same St John taught by Jesus Christ and who wrote the words above. A great example of HE (Ignatius) who hears YOU (St John) hears me (JESUS); Lk 10. “They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110). St Justin Martyr writes a few years later: “For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165). St Ireneaus a few years later, against heretics: “But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world…” Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200). St Clement of Alexandria : “For the blood of the grape-that is, the Word-desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both-of the water and of the Word-is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202). Where are all those early Christians teaching a reformed understanding?? How could the Church, the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth, where the manifold wisdom of God is made known, that Christ PROMISED to lead to ALL TRUTH, error and not know it for 1500 years leading to three Catholic who would disagree with each other: 2 priests named Luther and Zwingli and a Catholic lawyer named Calvin? Highly recommend this video is by Dr Brant Pitre. th-cam.com/video/P45BHDRA7pU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=KsozERJg9qmJZ5pa
Our fellowship (Protestant, though i never truly understood that label, but now thanks to Gavin i do) partakes & teaches on the Lords Supper every week, i can't imagine worship without it! 🙏 Though I've never heard the term 'Real Presence' before finding Dr Gavins channel, when ever i partake in The Lords Supper, i see His broken Body and spilt Blood and recieve Him and His benefits in it.. Simultaneously, I am also, in that moment, of the deep understanding that His broken Body & Atoning Blood given to all who love Him (all over the world), makes us one in Him, cleansed together, fitted together.. It is always a very intimate and very sacred moment for me.. I am always penitent in that moment, always being conscious of His Presence, very conscious of His Holy Spirit, and conscious of the eyes of Our Heavenly Father being on me, knowing my heart.. There are times when i simply can't partake, considering that my heart is not right in that moment, and that i need to attend to something that disqualifies me at that moment, some division between me and a Brother or Sister, or something else like that.. That time with the Lord in His Presence is never taken lightly by me.. it is a profound and intimate moment for me..🙏
I will say this video was extremely helpful in helping me understand my convictions when reading scripture regarding the Lord's Supper. I was baptized and was a member of a reformed Baptist church but ended up switching to a Presbyterian (PCA) church when I moved cities over convictions regarding this issue primarily. Thank you for helping many of us in the "lower-church" traditions see the beauty of a higher view (and I believe biblical view) of the sacraments!
I can’t express what a blessing it has been to me to come across your videos on the Lord’s Supper. I go to a Protestant non-denominational church and we have never had this teaching but the Lord spoke to one of the elders of my previous church in a housegroup meeting years ago and said He desired us to have Communion because it was a way of having intimacy with Him. I never understood this until I came across you on the Beckett Cook show and started watching your videos.
Thank you very much ,i was just thinking about introducing it weekly to my congregation. Hoping that it would help communicate the mystical and spiritual feasting of our Lord and king in a more profound way . Thank you for your message of love to God’s people. God bless you. Amen
I had no clue that so many protestant groups historically held such a high view of communion.Your videos like this on communion help me understand the depth of this beautiful gift from Jesus. Thanks.
@@tammymorris2268 someone else put up a post on here saying John 6 was about a year before the last supper. This would make the bread of life speech appear to be a metaphor, unless He was then speaking prophetically.
Thank you for this! I definitely want to read Watson’s book now. I totally got teary eyed at the end. Those last 2 quotes you cited were excellent. Reminded me of a lot of your brother Dane’s book Gentle & Lowly (which I love!)- the idea of how it is precisely when we are sick with sin that we move toward Christ and not away from him. His heart for sinners and sufferers is that of gentle and lowly. P.s. I agree with the others who said that it would be really cool to hear a discussion on the Supper with you and Dr Jordan Cooper.😊
I searched on TH-cam for a teaching on the Lord's supper and yours was the first video I clicked on. I am born again believer, but I don't attend church ( I have my reasons). I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and I consider myself a serious student of His word. Starting a few months ago it kept coming to me over and over again that i was to do communion with the Lord. I bought a little communion kit and studied about the Lord's supper. I did my first communion 3 weeks ago all by myself. There are not words to describe my experience with the Lord Jesus Christ the past 3 weeks!!! I can't explain it lol??? Great teaching. Im sharing this video with my sister, my 2 best friends and my niece and nephew. I sent all of them communion kits and I'm encouraging them to watch your teaching. God bless
I'm sure that your experience was meaningful, and it's great that you desire to be closer to Jesus. Since you are desirous, I'm going to be direct because you need to know the truth. Only priests with valid ordinations can consecrate the bread and wine such that they literally become His Body and Blood as described in John 6 and in four other places in the New Testament. Only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have valid apostolic succession and valid sacraments. If you wish to know more, I encourage you to contact a local Catholic Church and set up an appointment to meet with a priest who can explain this in more detail.
@randycarson9812 LOL when I posted that I KNEW catholics and orthodox were going to come for me. Who says only clergy can make sacraments for communion with our Lord Jesus Christ? That's an honest question? I've extensively studied this subject. I actually study my Bible for myself. A LOT. God bless you.
@@jeannemaxwell3173 That's kinda my point. But "nor would I ever be" is interesting. Is there a verse or two in which Jesus promised a book and then told us to work it out alone? Jesus promised to build a Church. Does the Bible suggest that people should be alone or part of the body of Christ, the Church?
@@jeannemaxwell3173 If you are asking an honest question (and I think you are) then I will spend some time on this with you. I will answer any question you have for as long as you like. Fair? Two passages of scripture show that Jesus instituted a ministerial priesthood to continue His work on earth. First, during the Last Supper, Jesus instructed His apostles to "do this in memory of me," referring to the celebration of the Eucharist in which bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus (cf. Jn 6:35-69). Jesus' directive to "do this" necessitated that the Apostles be granted the authority to carry out the rite or duty just commanded. Therefore, Jesus conferred authority upon the Apostles, ordaining them for this purpose. Second, in John 20:21-23, after His resurrection, Jesus appears to His disciples and says, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." In this passage, Jesus grants His apostles the authority to forgive sins, thereby establishing the sacrament of reconciliation. This offers insight to Matthew 9:8 which says that God had given the authority to forgive sins “to men” (plural) - not just to one man, Jesus. Matthew understood this because, as an Apostle ordained by Jesus, he had been forgiving sins in the name of Jesus for decades by the time he wrote his gospel. These two examples illustrate the institution of the ministerial priesthood and the sacraments which they perform in continuing the priesthood of Jesus on earth. Thoughts?
Amazing explanation. Very enlightening. I am a Pentecostal minister (Assemblie of God) from Brazil, and I have learned a lot from all of your videos. Thanks and keep up the great work.
@@josueinhan8436 Com certeza! Tenho aprendido muito com ele, tanto pelo exemplo de cristão, quanto pelo conteúdo que produz. Abraços pra ti, meu irmão!
@@jonathanfraires irmão, confere dps esse livro dele do Thomas Watson. Está à venda por 13 reais na Amazon. Chama-se "A Ceia do Senhor". Foi traduzido pra português. Abração, Deus te abençoe
This was really helpful, Gavin! I think I've tended to assume about the depth of meaning in communion, and I think a lot of other people have too. It's possible it's been underrepresented as a doctrine in response to how emphasized the Supper is in the Catholic/Orthodox traditions. I'd be interested in additional videos on it!
FYI: I found the Thomas Watson book on the Monergism app and gave it a read. Thank you so much for the recommended. My friend has jumped ship from the Protestant faith to a Vatican 1 leaning Catholicism. He's been trying to get me to join. Watson's book really helped with seeing the richness we enjoy in the communion as Protestants. I like how he drew firm lines against transubstantiation in the book too. Made things more clear.
"Made things more clear." Just go with scripture - THIS IS MY BODY - and the teaching of Christianity for 2000 years. REJECT 16th c man-made doctrines that came along. Those Catholic men, two priests Luther and Zwingli and the Catholic lawyer Calvin all disagreed with each other, even as they said the Church errored for 1500 years and didn't even know it. Your friend has it 100% right! *SCRIPTURE:* 51 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” *SCRIPTURE:* 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” *SCRIPTURE:* 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *SCRIPTURE:* 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. *SCRIPTURE:* 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. *SCRIPTURE:* 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. *SCRIPTURE:* 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. St Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of the very same St John above. A great example of HE who hears YOU, hears ME. “They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110). St Justin Martyr writes a few years later: “For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165). St Ireneaus a few years later, against heretics: “But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world…” Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200). St Clement of Alexandria : “For the blood of the grape-that is, the Word-desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both-of the water and of the Word-is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202). And thus the question is raised, just where are all those protestant beliefs on the Eucharist in the early Church? AND, how could the Church universally error and not even know it, not even meeting to discuss a disagreement on the topic?
@TruthHasSpoken do you know the gospel where Jesus tells us to eat of his flesh doesn't even include the Lord's Supper. You would think if it meant that then it would have been in that gospel.
@@stephengreater1689 "where Jesus tells us to eat of his flesh doesn't even include the Lord's Supper." His words in the Lord's Supper are the same, highlighted in bold. 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; *this is my body.”* 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for *this is my blood* of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Interesting too, the early Christians had no problem reconciling these teachings. A great video to watch: th-cam.com/video/P45BHDRA7pU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=9o2gY68rNh4VLtFQ The questions remain for you: 1. why argue with scripture, with Jesus? 2. where are all those protestant beliefs on the Eucharist in the early Church? 3. how could the Church universally error and not even know it, not even meeting to discuss a disagreement on the topic? Suggest too. Read the bread of life discourse - Jn 6 and the first paragraph in Jn 7 - and make two columns a. those who took Jesus as speaking symbolically only b. those who took Jesus as speaking literally Compare the lists. What do you find?
@@stephengreater1689 "where Jesus tells us to eat of his flesh doesn't even include the Lord's Supper." His words in the Lord's Supper are the same, highlighted in bold. _Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Interesting too, the early Christians had no problem reconciling these teachings._ A great video to watch: th-cam.com/video/P45BHDRA7pU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=9o2gY68rNh4VLtFQ The questions remain: 1. why argue with scripture, with Jesus? 2. where are all those protestant beliefs on the Eucharist in the early Church? 3. how could the Church universally error and not even know it, not even meeting to discuss disagreement on the topic? Suggest too. Read the bread of life discourse - Jn 6 and the first paragraph in Jn 7 - and make two columns a. those who took Jesus as speaking symbolically only b . those who took Jesus as speaking literally Compare the lists. What do you find?
@@TruthHasSpokenIt’s hard to take Rome serious when they say Catholics and Muslims worship the same God in The Catechism of the Catholic Church #841 when pre Vatican 2 Roman Church condemned the “muhammadians” as PAGANS.
I have never heard this view of communion from any protestant church. I have been to many protestant churches, and none of them ever taught this. It sounds so much like the orthodox and catholic church. what’s so strange is in my protestant walk pastors would tell me, Luther, Zwingli, and early protestants were too much like the Roman Catholic Church since they were priest in the Catholic Church. They did not convert enough. According to these pastors. But it seems like you’re saying people need to get back to the early church.
"But it seems like you’re saying people need to get back to the early church." And in the early Church, for the first 1500++ years, those who led the faithful at Church were Catholic priests, bishops included. Protestant pastors didn't exist.
I love how you ended the video with a strong emphasis on the grace Jesus offers in the Supper to all Christians who come to the table in faith… even mustard seed faith.
Gavin, great video! Would it be your view that the Westminster Confession and the London Baptist Confession both focus too much on what the Lord’s Supper is NOT, rather than what it IS?
I've gone to Baptist, Pentecostal, and non-denominational church most of my life and the lords supper was seldom taught on. So I'm trying to learn from you and history.
Thanks for another great video. I know a lot of discussion about the Lord's Supper deals with the "types of presence" in the supper, because that seems to be what separates the various Christian communities. However, it would be nice to hear an exposition on the idea, and evolution, of the Lord's supper/Eucharist as a sacrifice. Thanks, Dr. Ortlund, for these videos.
What can I say but admire this deep sermon! Sir. Excellent explanation 👌 of the traditional protestant view on the "Bread" & "Wine". This is the reason why I converted to protestantism: my impurity, though I may struggle against it, coupled with repentance is the exact requisite of the admission to the table of The Lord.
I appreciate the thoughtful reflection and presentation of the Reformed position is. The remark that Christ Jesus is locally present in heaven and, amongst the very strictest of Calvinists, that it would be contrary to a true Human Nature for Him to have anything other than a local, confined presence, demonstrates that the separation between the Lutheran and the Reformed is a Christological issue, not merely semantic; that is, how one understands "is" or "presence."
Thank you for this video Pastor Ortlund. I know this is an old video, but this was super helpful for my own thinking as I am currently discerning between Anglicanism and the Pentecostal church of my upbringing.
May I ask why only those two traditions? There are a good number of Charismatic Anglicans, but also EPC presbyterians. Is it determining how sacramental you are convicted that the sacraments are?
I love the language of Q.76 in the Heidelberg Catechism. Q. What does it mean to eat the crucified body of Christ and to drink His shed blood? A. First, to accept with a believing heart all the suffering and the death of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of sins and life eternal. Second, to be united more and more to His sacred body through the Holy Spirit, who lives both in Christ and in us. Therefore, although Christ is in heaven and we are on earth, yet we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones, and we forever live and are governed by one Spirit, as the members of our body are by one soul. That knocked my socks off the first time I read it. My sense was that it was in danger of going too far in speaking of our union with Christ, but in light of 1 Cor. 2:11-16 the language is completely biblical.
1 Corinthians 10:16 was precisely the verse that a college professor pointed to to reject the "merely memorial" view, and it is the one that brought me out of that view as well. You hear a lot of "Communion Meditations" in the kinds of Protestant churches I've been a part of that read from 1 Corinthians 11, but I have never heard someone reference 1 Cor 10 during the time of the Lord's Supper at a worship service.
I’m always impressed by your humility and scholarship. But I believe you are already an Orthodox, Anglican, or Lutheran Christian. 😊 Additionally, I have to believe this episode should be subtitled “A message to my fellow Baptists.” I simply cannot understand the Baptist view, and I am a former Baptist! The early church fathers also tell us the “mechanics “ through the Eucharistic prayer.
I think if you agree on the presence of it you have to also ask the question: Who has the authority to do this? Who has the authority to "consecrate" the Lord's Supper and give it to others? It's been a question on my mind for a while.
Good question: (Only thru Apostolic succession) Only a priest ordained thru the sacrament of the Holy Orders can consecrate the host of the communion and absolve a sin in the sacrament of confession. Not even an angel, nor archangel, nor any other created power, can consecrate the host and absolve our sin - “what you bind on earth is bound in heaven” St. John Chrysostom: "On the Priesthood" "The Paraclete Himself, instituted this vocation, and persuaded men while still abiding in the flesh to represent the ministry of angels."
All believers are priests according to the New Testament. Your view is more of developed tradition than obeying the Lord by faith. Acts 2:42-43 seems to suggest the participation of all believers, even the unfortunate passage in 1 Corinthians 11. If the "yoke" of "ordained class of priests", in my view was the norm in the New Testament Church, it would have been difficult to partake of the Lord's supper under heavy persecution the Church went through. The leadership in the Church evolved or developed slowly, abandoning the apostolic New Testament type of a group of elders leading the Church ~ who were normally chosen from the congregation with their own families and living among their own community to a monarchical hierarchy of a single Bishop in a post apostolic era.
While I am not an expert on his view of the Lord's Supper, I am more in line with Nevin's side of the split in the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper. It is a mystery and mystical/ spiritual. I am pretty close to a Lutheran or Orthodox view of real presence but still hanging on to spiritual presence for incarnational or Christological reasons.
That might be a false dichotomy if by "remember me" you are thinking that a mere remembrance is all that is happening. If the choice is either re-sacrifice or remembrance only, then the answer is "neither". I don't know any Christian tradition that would deny that Holy Communion is done "in remembrance" of Christ. But the Reformed tradition (and Lutheran) believes there is much more going on (but neither teach a re-sacrificing). It is more of a reconnecting to the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ as we receive His body & blood. The Reformed see that reception happening spiritually in heaven while the Lutherans teach it happens down here in the hand and mouth.
Great video. Whilst I am Cranmerian in my view of The Lords Supper. I do struggle with some verses. For example Jesus was actually bodily present when he told them that this was his body and blood. And, he said I will not eat if ut again until we eat together in the kingdom. Would Jesus really eat his own body? I think these verses support a more memorial view of the supper but I know there is more scripture to consider.
I am not sure why you would think those verses support a memorial view. The reformed view does not accept transubstantiation. I don't see this as a conundrum.
I was hoping this video would offer an offical doctrine about the Lord's Supper. I am trying to understand the protestant belief about the nature of it. This video started out making sense to me (the high and low view explanation), but the description from this book seemed to be almost exactly whay the Catholic Church teaches about the Eucharist, but without conceding that is what the Catholic Church teaches is correct. I am just under the impression that if you can poetically articulate beliefs that are almost identical to those of the Catholic Church, while still being able to maintain the most minimal degree of difference from it, you should be deemed a great protestant scholar. Does Gavin (or another protestant scholar) have any other videos that explain protestant teachings of The Lord's Supper in more definitive terms?
Sorry to bring this to your attention but when it comes to Baptism and Communion, trying to get a concise Protestant stance is like trying to catch smoke. Each denomination has a stance, and the mainline churches (Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc.) are descriptive in their confessions of faith or catechisms. Baptist and Evangelicals on the other hand are almost always memorialist. But, Dr. Ortlund here is an example of a more traditional Reformed Baptist. Because of that,I wouldn't take what he says to represent Baptist beliefs as a whole. Lastly, he is definitely a maverick leading the charge to bring the Reformed Baptist Church back to us roots
While I don't consider myself to be a Methodist, I go to one precisely because of their belief in the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. Plus, this is the only Protestant church I encountered that offers the Eucharist every week. I wish the Eucharist was not a monthly event in most Evangelical churches.
Gavin this is exactly what I needed to hear as I've long struggled with the somewhat blase, symbolic view Protestants tend to take on the Eucharist. I just ordered the book and would so love to hear more on this subject - do you have a link to your sermon?
In the RC tradition a person has to be in a state of grace to receive communion, and only the bread is given out, but the priest has the wine himself. They preach going to confession to have your sins forgiven first. Strangely you see very few people at confession, but just about everyone goes up for communion at mass. I'm a catholic but have a very un-catholic way of seeing it. To me, it was intended to be a private meal for his apostles only, and "do this in remembrance of me" looks like "eat what I've given you in remembrance of me". If it was a cannibalistic feast you would expect to see whole passages where the apostles were in shock, and ill, and needing medical attention. There's none of that. Making me wonder if it was metaphorical.
Many Catholics point to John 6 as Jesus establishing the need to physically consume him. Yet the events of John 6 were about a year before the Last Supper. Why would Jesus tell his followers to do something that would not be established for another twelve months?
@@tammymorris2268 I'm afraid it's not. Go to any RC mass. The priest gets the bread and wine, but the laity just get the bread. And that's in every RC church. I should know, I go there on Sundays. Seems outrageous doesn't it?
@@geordiewishart1683 The only way I can imagine is the Lord knew He would be having the Lord's supper in a year's time, as He's God. So could He have been telling them in advance? And to me it looks like He was telling them to eat and drink what He was giving them "in remembrance of me". If it was only for those in the room, why do we try to re-enact it?
Brant Pitre wrote an absolutely spectacular scholarly book on the last Supper called JESUS AND THE LAST SUPPER. It is not just keeping the body of Christ in Communion with Him and each other with the divine life of Christ. It is also the living bread that is food for the new exodus to the New Jerusalem.
@@kaysandee I realize that Brant Pitre is not infallible. I also realize that every self-proclaim expert or pastor is at least as infallible as Brant Pitre. Brant Pitre doesn't invent historical truth. He researches the bible and Jewish history for it. I would trust him over a self-appointed minister any day. Brant Pitre also understand exactly how Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. How many Calvinists do you know that get that? Dr. Orlund, at this point in his research, is trying to reconcile his tradition with that of the early church. He is admirably taking a stab at understanding how the teachings of the apostles were practiced in the early church. There are a few OT scholars who could help, if he would listen. You can only go so far with Protestant scholars. They simply weren't there. The early fathers were. It can't hurt to listen to them and reconcile it with the REASON for their practices based on Judaism. Why do you think the Christian religion caught on so quickly? The early Christians didn't see it as foreign. Why? That's what the Jewish roots can explain.
Interesting, I don't get it, as a former pentacostal, I always saw the presence of the Lord present in everything we do in worship. Everyday life. He is ever present, there is nowhere where he is not present. Is He extra present at the breaking bread and wine? I never thought He wasn't present. 🤷🏻♂️ although this video made me want to focus and see if I could learn more into this moment. Something I may not know. Thank you for the video.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard a Christian say that the communion is more important than God’s word. This is one of the criticisms of the Roman Catholics
helllooo! I have a question/concern. Is not having a perfect understanding or taking a firm stance on whether the supper is memorial or spiritual, or literal, (etc) drinking judgement on yourself? For example, if I go to communion in my evangelical church (that broadly holds a zwingli view) and i'm not sure exactly where I land theologically speaking on the nature of the presence of Christ, if I go and take the supper anyway before coming to a firm stance, and just take it in faith and mystery, am I drinking condemnation on myself as paul talks about in corinthinas?
hi Sophia! No, that is not eating and drinking judgment on yourself. It is good to keep working on your understanding of it, but the Corinthian problem was much more severe than that. They were getting drunk on the wine, etc. Hope that gives you some peace of mind.
Could you consider doing a video on closed communion? I really struggle with being left out of communion at Loved Ones’ churches. To me, Communion is the big moment for “communion of the [earthly/heavenly] saints”, for unity of true Believers.
Churches who take the Supper at face value get great comfort and assurance from it. Moreover, they consider it to be a basic belief because to them it requires no interpretation, only believing, taking, and eating. So when someone comes to church and they refuse to believe something so easy and basic, it's hard not to suspect them of being a "reviler." And according to 1 Cor 5:11, we are not to eat even secular food with christians who do not accept correction, i.e. revilers. Hope that helps explain the perspective.
You need to truly believe that the host is the body of Christ and you must receive Him in a state of grace (no mortal sin), otherwise it is sacrilege to receive the host. (In this state, you are ready to join the saints in heaven) Didache (90AD) "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles" - the earliest written catechism. The Lords instruction on how to worship Him: "On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure. Let no one who has a quarrel with his neighbor join you until he is reconciled by the Lord. In every place and time let there be offered to me a clean sacrifice."
@@jamesrey3221 The Didache states no where in it that The Thanksgiving is the real and physical body and blood of Christ. It has great reverence for the ordinance, and takes about a third or so of this little book in giving instruction for it, but it just doesn't state that. The Didache which is such an early writing, predating most of the church fathers, really showed me how this transubstantiation doctrine evolved over time and became more and more elaborate.
@@joycegreer9391 The RCC Eucharist practice is hyper reverent. We need to be careful what we call sacrilege. They hold is as their most sacred and revered sacrament, as far as I can tell.
IS this the standard Baptist view? I feel like this view is in the London Baptist confession 1689, but I don't see this in many practicing baptististic churches
The presence in the Eucharist is the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us in John 6:63 that the flesh is worthless it is the Holy Spirit. In John 6:68 Peter said that it is to give Eternal life (Holy Spirit and Light) and save the unsaved. The last Supper was a Rememberance only as they all were previously saved.
Jesus didn’t say “eat my spiritual presence”, he said “eat my flesh and drink my blood”. Many walked away from this hard teaching, are you one of them?
Somehow according the protestantism - and not just Gavin - the Church universally errored on the Lord's Supper for the first 1500 years and didn't even know it. Never a synod or council to debate the issue!! There were not any protestant "pastors" during those first 1000+ years. Those who led the Christian "congregations" were Catholic priests, bishops included, who led the faithful at Mass, where they believed through their words of consecration, the bread and wine transformed into the resurrected Christ.
If you believe in the trinity, the father, son and holy spirit are the one God. In that case if the Lord imbued the bread with the holy spirit then He imbued it with Himself. Mystery solved.
I know it would require more work on your part, but I would love it if you posted links in the description to past videos you mention over the course of the video I’m currently watching.
@@schmi146 haha yes, a Calvinist is more than somebody who believes in the sovereignty of God. Helpful to point out! Historically, Baptists and Calvinists/Reformed were distinguished.
I can't understand how it makes sense in the light of the gospel, after having stated that this is a visual sermon, to stick to the idea that Jesus is not coming to us, but we to him, that it's not incarnational, but purely spiritual. Makes very little sense to me. To be able to tell the laity that He is coming to us, is the gospels foundation. This is the foundational difference of Lutherans and Reformed, and Luther was right to recognize that this is hard to reconcile, and would undermine the Lutheran pastoral preaching of the core of the gospel, Christs precence everywhere, also on earth, indeed the Kingdoms precense with us now. We do indeed rise, but only because He decends with us. There is no preaching in the sacrament if it is not about the incarnation and bodily precense. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding, but this is hard for me to get around. It forms the core of my understanding of the gospel.
Good question. I'm not Gavin, but I would say at the very least using the Lord's words of institution and the elements of bread and wine. One could add a validly ordained celebrant, the epiclesis (calling upon the Holy Spirit),...the list could get quite long.
@“Words of Life” with Dr. Steven Nemes …I don’t think they have enough evidence to make this claim. Justin Martyr in 155AD outlined the Mass, including the Eucharist. The words of institution were not mentioned, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. Much of the documents from that time period did not survive…
@“Words of Life” with Dr. Steven Nemes Thanks for that interesting point! Sometimes a longstanding practice can be assumed to be at the core of a liturgical act when in fact it is not. I'm curious, Prof. Nemes, do you know if there was a discernable oral tradition that predates our earliest Eucharistic liturgies? There must have been something spoken, right? Do we know the general shape of that?
@@mj6493 thanks for your response. Would believing the doctrine of “real presence” in the Lord’s Supper be necessary? In other words, is there an objective reality which unfolds no matter the subjective belief of the one who says these words (the words of the Lord’s consecration)?
@“Words of Life” with Dr. Steven Nemes I'm not sure if you want to call it a formula, but Paul clearly says, "For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you,..." in his letter to the Corinthians in relation to the verba. And when exactly would he have received this from the Lord? Does he mean he received it from Peter in Damascus? I'll leave it to the scholars.
Interesting thoughts. It seems like the reformation started out to try and tweak the church slightly but maybe over time became taken over by the gnostics. I feel like Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaus already defeated them but here we see again movements to decoupling the spiritual from the physical and focus only on the spiritual. Irenaus pray for us.
Given that the RCC is schismatic, and Luther’s reforms are born of a spirit of schism that his colleagues like Calvin and Zwingli maintained, it’s not really surprising how chaotic the beliefs and practices of Protestants are.
@@nathanmagnuson2589 How do you figure the Roman Catholic church is schismatic? They have always maintained communion with the throne of King and his majordomo.
Theres a reason is the schism between the RCC and the EO is a schism between Rome and the other Orthodox patriarchates. Even the OO are closer to orthodoxy than the RCC at this point imo.
watching this now. I think Chan is right about the replacement of the LS in a sense. The LS was the main central feature for a good while. Then the Protestants brought back the Word as central also. The Word was also central in biblical and in early Christianity along with the sacraments. Thus, the sacraments and especially the LS lost some of the centrality since it is now shared with the Word. To be clear I see word and sacrament central in Biblical and early Church worship. At some point in the Middle Ages the centrality of the Word diminished and thus the sacraments became the only thing that was really central. The reformers (and the pre-reformers) brought back the Word as central along with the sacrament.
I’ve been thinking about doing daily communion with my family in the home. Anybody have any thoughts on this? Is there any biblical/historical precedent for this? Would I be overstepping in any way? I loved the video. I don’t think any of us truly know whether the presence is real or what mode of realness it exists. I think C.S. Lewis was wise when he pointed out that we were instructed to “take and eat”, not- take and understand.
I don't think there's much doubt that the presence is real or Paul would not have said we are participating in the body of Christ. Are you in a situation where you can't take communion at church? As Gavin pointed out, the normative position is to take it with his people, the body of Christ. But we do have Christian freedom so maybe you can take it at home. For myself, and only for myself, I would not.
The portions you read out were very rich indeed and devotional. As a Catholic(and ex-Lutheran), that gives me a new appreciation for Puritans (well at least some of them!). I had a decent understanding of the higher Calvinist view (had read more on Calvin's own view) but didn't think any Puritan theologian would fall towards that end of the spectrum. A very irenic/ecumenical discussion by a Catholic on these matters was had several months ago on Gospel Simplicity where Brett Salkeld was interviewed and showed a well-informed appreciation of Calvin's view of Spiritual Presence - of course, in the end Salkeld does not think it is adequate but that is to be expected. Actually, your video does raise my curiosity that given your rather high view of this sacrament and its relative centrality - how often is it offered/celebrated by your congregation (I realize its frequency may not be dictated solely by your personal views)?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”” John 6:47-58, 66-69 ESV Many of his followers left him over this, but he didn’t say “don’t go, I meant it was just a symbol.” Jesus doubled down on his carefully chosen words. Hard to explain the real presence away, without saying Jesus was wrong. The church fathers closest to the source universally believed in the real presence…
This was fascinating, and speaks to a lot of my theological journey from a more memorialist view to a more Cranmerian view (I am now a deacon in the Church of England). I have to ask though, have you, Gavin, ever felt or experienced anything special while taking the Lord's Supper? I've come to believe it is the foundation and fulcrum of our worship, and technically I believe we should be encountering Christ in a profound way through it. But if I'm honest, I have never once "encountered" or "felt" or "experienced" anything that I would call divine or transcendent when taking it, whereas I have experienced such moments of transcendent beauty and joy and conviction and awe, etc, through the preached word and through sung worship. All I experience in the Eucharist is the bland flavour of the wafer/bread, and the sweet flavour of the wine, while I'm trying my best to hold out my heart in vulnerable faith before Jesus, but not actually sensing any emotional or spiritual movement in my inner being. Am I expecting too much? Shouldn't mystical, experiential encounters with the living person of Christ be as readily available to me through the sacrament as they are through sung worship and the preached word? I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts. Love what you do on this channel - your irenic approach to dialogue is inspiring.
I suspect it's because we hope to experience something divine in the mechanics of taking the Eucharist into ourselves. The divine encounter w/ the Eucharist is a spiritual sense. That's why you feel this divine connection through other means of worship like song, or physical worship, and through the hearing of the word. I too hoped for a mystical experience w/ the Eucharist. I was praying for the truth of transubstantiation to be revealed, while going to Catholic Mass. I didn't want to miss out, if there was a deeper truth we protestants have been missing. The closest I came to that divine experience was in talking about taking it, w/ a Catholic deacon, at the parish I'd been going to. I got very emotional, and realized I'd come to a deep love and appreciation for the Eucharist, that I hadn't had before, in having it taught as a mere memorial. It had become something more to me. Something deeply spiritual, something ineffable and mysterious. I was honest w/ the kind deacon about not being able to connect w/ transubstantiation though. Through my tears and broken voice, he could tell my deep reverence and connection to it. He told me to keep taking it. I was very grateful, because usually Catholics don't want protestants to partake w/ them, because of our differences in beliefs about it. My belief was only nominally different at this point.
I think generally the Reformed tradition _would_ place the Sacraments "below" the Word in general, and Watson is saying _in these particular ways_ the Supper is superior, but generally not. Calvin holds (in one of his tracts on the topic) that the Sacrament only has meaning and validity _because of_ the Word, therefore is necessarily inferior.
@@matthewlamaster342 But while the sacraments "derive" their meaning and power from the Word (both written, in terms of institution and incarnate by way of command)... the Word can also rightly be called "sacramental" (there is grace/power in the Word), thus their relation is less derivative and more reciprocal. This is why I don't see them as competitive, at least not in regards to the "altar vs pulpit" tension. There is no tension, they are both central, the Liturgy of the Word (synaxis), and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (meal) -- both informing each other. The Reformers merely brought _equal weight_ to the sermon (lacking in the Middle Ages) while maintaining the Medieval importance of the supper.
@@poordoubloon10 Yes, about the alter vs. pulpit tension. I've noticed that Catholic like to use the fact they have an alter for their worship, rather than a mere pulpit, but they use it as a bully pulpit.
As a Roman Catholic I admire you work on this subject. However, my issue with Protestantism is the drifting away from a doctrine due to no central authority keeping us in place. I don't say this in an attacking mode, just an observation
This was very good, but a few places where I might "nudge" you to continue the conversation. 1) I think when we speak of "spiritual" presence, we unwittingly inject an alien metaphysics into our explanation by using the lower case "s" instead of a capitol "S." I would argue that one should not pit "spiritual" against "physical," rather it should be "Spiritual" but not "local" (i.e. a mysterious working of the Holy Spirit). Body and blood are quintessentially physical and saying "spiritual body" or "spiritual blood" by which one means "non-physical body and blood" sounds oxymoronic. Our whole persons (body, blood, & soul) are so united to the whole Christ, that participation in his real body and blood are an essential part of our salvation. Calvin sought to teach this with his imagery of us being brought up to heaven to feed upon Christ. 2) I agree that faith is necessary and I am a receptionist and not a consecrationist, but at the same time, we must resist the temptation to make the efficacy overly cerebral. Christ said "do this" not "think about this". The command of Christ is to eat and to drink. I would argue that faith receives the sacrament in an "embodied" manner by one's eating and drinking. It does not become efficacious by the power of our ability to think rightly about the sacrament. Here I think Paul's words about discerning the body are misunderstood. Discernment was not discerning the sacrament qua sacrament, but rather discerning the corporate practice of this meal as a meal of unity and not division. Anyway, peace!
Because the Sacrament *includes* the Word of God. "Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." is the Word of God straight from the Savior's mouth offering both a command/invitation and a promise to be believed. The Sacrament is the Word connected to visible elements.
This was great! I'll get that book for christmas! I loved that sentence "take the cup, it is for sinners!" at least in Germany sometimes a great emphasize is played on examening yourself and this part is missed, which always made me sad. So I made a video about it and maybe I'll do a follow up after reading Watsons book. Thanks for the content!!! 😍
What I’m struggling most to understand with respect to this view is how the body of Christ (a physical thing) is present in a spiritual way. Is there a Reformed source that dives deeply into that? The idea of the spiritual presence of a physical thing is sort of breaking my brain.
In my experience, Orthodox worship places far more emphasis on the sacrament/mystery of the Eucharist than modern Protestant worship -- in Orthodoxy, the Eucharist is the climax of the liturgy, whereas it is just another thing that happens to be lumped into Protestant Sunday church. That has been my experience; your mileage may vary.
Good video, however I think a balanced and accurate historical theology of the Protestant Reformation reveals they hold the primacy of the Word preached, not the primacy of the sacraments. That does not mean a low view or undervaluing the sacraments. Just like how Paul placed baptism under the preached word in his priority as an apostle 1 Cor. 1:17. The sacraments are appended to the word for the purpose of confirming or sealing it, they do not exist independently of the word but it is the word that gives life to the sacraments. The same grace received through the sacraments is the same grace received in the preached word.
I think this is an inaccurate statement. The early reformers all had sacramental theology. Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopals, Methodists, Presbyterians all believe in some form of real presence. The more recent in history you go, the more sacraments are dropped for “Bible only” denominations.
@@billmartin3561 bill, first, Lutherans and Anglicans should be distinguished from the historic reformed churches and reformed confessions (Methodists as well). The “Reformed” are distinguished from the Anglicans, Lutherans, Anabaptists, etc. in multiple ways for multiple reasons. Many have seemed to lose that distinguishing classification today. The primacy of the preached word was central to the growth and doctrine of the Reformation. Also, as a Reformed Presbyterian who subscribes to the original Westminster Standards, I do not deny a high view of the Lord’s Supper. It is not a bare memorial, the Reformed repudiate that. Just because Reformers and Reformed confessions held the primacy of the preached word does not mean they diminished the sacraments. It’s not inaccurate to say the Reformed churches held the primacy of the preached word while maintaining a high view of the sacraments, it’s what the reformers and reformed confessions attested to. I’m not arguing on behalf of Lutherans or Anglicans or Baptists or Methodists, I’m simply reiterating what the Reformed branch of the Reformation heralded. It’s what the ministers were primarily commissioned to do in the first place 2 Tim 4:2
Jacob, I concur with your well-written assessment: it is quite clear that Calvin believed in the primacy of the Word preached. I think Dr. Ortlund may be misreading Watson, though I haven't read a ton of Watson myself. Bill, when we are discussing anything "Reformed", we are not discussing "Bible only". The latter is the result of a degeneration of primarily baptist theology and has a different origin and history.
@@jacobcarne8316 I appreciate your qualification there, not claiming to speak for all Protestants. As a Lutheran, and influenced by Anglicanism greatly (liturgically and otherwise), I can with some authority represent the "other side" of the Reformation. It is true that the Reformers as such emphasized the primacy of the Word in an age that held primacy to the sacraments (and the sacrifice of the mass, more specifically)... yet, I see this not as an attempt to "put the sacraments in their place", but to elevate the [preached] Word to the same level that the sacraments enjoyed in the Middle Ages (thus restoring, rather than introducing the ancient balance between the synactic Liturgy of the Word, and the Eucharistic Liturgy). Their relationship is one of reciprocity, not subordination. The sacraments are "visible words" (to quote St Augustine) but the Word -- preached -- is rightly understood as having sacramental effect (vocal sounds carrying the grace of the Holy Spirit to the hearers); hence why we Lutherans have always classified Holy Absolution within Private Confession, as a "third sacrament" despite no obvious _visible_ sign.
Thomas Cranmer's great treatise called " The Defence of the True and Catholic Doctrine of the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ" is also a great explanation in a polemical sense of a Reformed perspective on the Lord's Supper. This was presented liturgically especially in the 1552 Book of Common Prayer and dogmatically in Article XXVIII of the Thirty Nine Articles. I suspect that Watson's book is more easily understood than Cranmer's, but they both appear to convey similar views.
great suggestion, here is a link for anyone interested: www.amazon.com/Defence-Catholic-Doctrine-Sacrament-Savior/dp/1592447775
from my understanding, Cranmer goes almost but not quite full Zwinglian in that work, the book of common prayer and the article dont go nearly as far
This came by the thrust of Peter Martyr Vermigilli fyi.
@@internetenjoyer1044 define what you mean by Zwinglian, since I would venture to say his view is the most misinterpreted by polemicists.
@@TruthUnites In connection with Cranmer's works and his view on the eucharist I highly recommend an article written by Daniel Marrs "Real Presence, Spiritual Presence: Assessing Thomas Cranmer's Appropriation of St. Ambrose's Eucharistic Doctrine" which demonstrates that Ambrose though often cited by Roman Catholics, is closer to Cranmer's and the reformed view. The article is available online.
oh my... I just cried when you said "drink the wine, ma`m. It is for sinners. Christ's mercy always make my heart melts.
Love this ; bless you!
This inspired me to ask my pastors to discuss the possibility of weekly communion at our church! I'm excited, please pray that we can do it! ❤️🕯️
How did it go?
Nothing maddens me more than to realise western churches don’t have weekly communion.
@@aericabison23 majority of western churches do (Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican etc.) It tends to be reformed, baptist's, evangelicals and the like that don't.
@@aericabison23really? That's not good. How bout, Who is CHRIST? What has HE Done?
@@abcdefksohfosuh9024my nearest PCA church does weekly communion
I've been a born again Believer for more than 30 years. I'm no scholar, but I do love the Word. The Holy Spirit is always with us, but there is an extra special presence when we gather to together for the Lord's Supper. How it happens is a mystery, but there is a deeper communion when we all meditate on Christ and his sacrifice at the same time. I like the notion that we are in a sense, transported to the throne room of God.
The word teaches us in John chapter 6 what Gavin is saying. Jesus tells us plainly what to believe and do.
Thank you for this, Gavin! I come from a Lutheran perspective and have thought too lowly of how real you view the presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. It's a pleasant surprise to hear you be so clear about this: We receive Christ!
I grew up in a purely memorialist tradition. I’ve been comfortably in the reformed camp of soteriology, ecclesiasology, and baptism for a while. This has helped me understand more of what I’m realizing I do believe regarding the Lords Table.
"This has helped me understand more of what I’m realizing I do believe regarding the Lords Table."
GO with scripture and the full 2000 years of Christianity.
*SCRIPTURE:* 51 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
*SCRIPTURE:* 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
*SCRIPTURE:* 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
*SCRIPTURE:* 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
*SCRIPTURE:* 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
*SCRIPTURE:* 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
*SCRIPTURE:* 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
St Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of St John, the very same St John taught by Jesus Christ and who wrote the words above. A great example of HE (Ignatius) who hears YOU (St John) hears me (JESUS); Lk 10.
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
St Justin Martyr writes a few years later:
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).
St Ireneaus a few years later, against heretics:
“But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world…” Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200).
St Clement of Alexandria :
“For the blood of the grape-that is, the Word-desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both-of the water and of the Word-is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).
Where are all those early Christians teaching a reformed understanding??
How could the Church, the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth, where the manifold wisdom of God is made known, that Christ PROMISED to lead to ALL TRUTH, error and not know it for 1500 years leading to three Catholic who would disagree with each other: 2 priests named Luther and Zwingli and a Catholic lawyer named Calvin?
Highly recommend this video is by Dr Brant Pitre. th-cam.com/video/P45BHDRA7pU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=KsozERJg9qmJZ5pa
Our fellowship (Protestant, though i never truly understood that label, but now thanks to Gavin i do) partakes & teaches on the Lords Supper every week, i can't imagine worship without it! 🙏
Though I've never heard the term 'Real Presence' before finding Dr Gavins channel, when ever i partake in The Lords Supper, i see His broken Body and spilt Blood and recieve Him and His benefits in it..
Simultaneously, I am also, in that moment, of the deep understanding that His broken Body & Atoning Blood given to all who love Him (all over the world), makes us one in Him, cleansed together, fitted together..
It is always a very intimate and very sacred moment for me..
I am always penitent in that moment, always being conscious of His Presence, very conscious of His Holy Spirit, and conscious of the eyes of Our Heavenly Father being on me, knowing my heart..
There are times when i simply can't partake, considering that my heart is not right in that moment, and that i need to attend to something that disqualifies me at that moment, some division between me and a Brother or Sister, or something else like that..
That time with the Lord in His Presence is never taken lightly by me.. it is a profound and intimate moment for me..🙏
Just purchased the book, and looking forward to reading it. Thanks, Gavin!
Wonderful video! Thank you 🙏🏽
I will say this video was extremely helpful in helping me understand my convictions when reading scripture regarding the Lord's Supper. I was baptized and was a member of a reformed Baptist church but ended up switching to a Presbyterian (PCA) church when I moved cities over convictions regarding this issue primarily. Thank you for helping many of us in the "lower-church" traditions see the beauty of a higher view (and I believe biblical view) of the sacraments!
I can’t express what a blessing it has been to me to come across your videos on the Lord’s Supper. I go to a Protestant non-denominational church and we have never had this teaching but the Lord spoke to one of the elders of my previous church in a housegroup meeting years ago and said He desired us to have Communion because it was a way of having intimacy with Him. I never understood this until I came across you on the Beckett Cook show and started watching your videos.
great episode
Thank you very much ,i was just thinking about introducing it weekly to my congregation. Hoping that it would help communicate the mystical and spiritual feasting of our Lord and king in a more profound way . Thank you for your message of love to God’s people. God bless you. Amen
I had no clue that so many protestant groups historically held such a high view of communion.Your videos like this on communion help me understand the depth of this beautiful gift from Jesus. Thanks.
Read the words of Jesus in the entire chapter of John 6. This is Jesus’ Bread of Life discourse laid Down by Jesus, not the reformers.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that the "high" view of communion is something the Bible never spells out in this way.
@@tammymorris2268 someone else put up a post on here saying John 6 was about a year before the last supper. This would make the bread of life speech appear to be a metaphor, unless He was then speaking prophetically.
Thank you for all your efforts, I'm a reformed.Baptist and you have been very helpful in so many areas
Thank you for this! I definitely want to read Watson’s book now. I totally got teary eyed at the end. Those last 2 quotes you cited were excellent. Reminded me of a lot of
your brother Dane’s book Gentle & Lowly (which I love!)- the idea of how it is precisely when we are sick with sin that we move toward Christ and not away from him. His heart for sinners and sufferers is that of gentle and lowly.
P.s. I agree with the others who said that it would be really cool to hear a discussion on the Supper with you and Dr Jordan Cooper.😊
I searched on TH-cam for a teaching on the Lord's supper and yours was the first video I clicked on. I am born again believer, but I don't attend church ( I have my reasons). I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and I consider myself a serious student of His word. Starting a few months ago it kept coming to me over and over again that i was to do communion with the Lord. I bought a little communion kit and studied about the Lord's supper. I did my first communion 3 weeks ago all by myself. There are not words to describe my experience with the Lord Jesus Christ the past 3 weeks!!! I can't explain it lol???
Great teaching. Im sharing this video with my sister, my 2 best friends and my niece and nephew. I sent all of them communion kits and I'm encouraging them to watch your teaching. God bless
I'm sure that your experience was meaningful, and it's great that you desire to be closer to Jesus.
Since you are desirous, I'm going to be direct because you need to know the truth. Only priests with valid ordinations can consecrate the bread and wine such that they literally become His Body and Blood as described in John 6 and in four other places in the New Testament. Only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have valid apostolic succession and valid sacraments. If you wish to know more, I encourage you to contact a local Catholic Church and set up an appointment to meet with a priest who can explain this in more detail.
@randycarson9812 LOL when I posted that I KNEW catholics and orthodox were going to come for me. Who says only clergy can make sacraments for communion with our Lord Jesus Christ? That's an honest question? I've extensively studied this subject. I actually study my Bible for myself. A LOT. God bless you.
P.S. I am not catholic or orthodox nor would I ever be. Respectfully in Christ alone
@@jeannemaxwell3173 That's kinda my point. But "nor would I ever be" is interesting. Is there a verse or two in which Jesus promised a book and then told us to work it out alone?
Jesus promised to build a Church. Does the Bible suggest that people should be alone or part of the body of Christ, the Church?
@@jeannemaxwell3173 If you are asking an honest question (and I think you are) then I will spend some time on this with you. I will answer any question you have for as long as you like. Fair?
Two passages of scripture show that Jesus instituted a ministerial priesthood to continue His work on earth. First, during the Last Supper, Jesus instructed His apostles to "do this in memory of me," referring to the celebration of the Eucharist in which bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus (cf. Jn 6:35-69). Jesus' directive to "do this" necessitated that the Apostles be granted the authority to carry out the rite or duty just commanded. Therefore, Jesus conferred authority upon the Apostles, ordaining them for this purpose.
Second, in John 20:21-23, after His resurrection, Jesus appears to His disciples and says, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." In this passage, Jesus grants His apostles the authority to forgive sins, thereby establishing the sacrament of reconciliation. This offers insight to Matthew 9:8 which says that God had given the authority to forgive sins “to men” (plural) - not just to one man, Jesus. Matthew understood this because, as an Apostle ordained by Jesus, he had been forgiving sins in the name of Jesus for decades by the time he wrote his gospel.
These two examples illustrate the institution of the ministerial priesthood and the sacraments which they perform in continuing the priesthood of Jesus on earth.
Thoughts?
I so appreciated this. I have been reading this same book recently. Thanks for posting!
Appreciating your teaching channel Brother.. 🙏
I love and appreciate your insight brother. Many times the Lord has used you to help keep me grounded.
incredibly comforting
thanks really appreciated this. i asked you in comments on a previous video of yours, to present this topic. Kindestl regards
Amazing explanation. Very enlightening.
I am a Pentecostal minister (Assemblie of God) from Brazil, and I have learned a lot from all of your videos.
Thanks and keep up the great work.
Forte abraço. Deus te abençoe! O Gavin é um privilégio aqui na internet.
@@josueinhan8436 Com certeza! Tenho aprendido muito com ele, tanto pelo exemplo de cristão, quanto pelo conteúdo que produz. Abraços pra ti, meu irmão!
@@jonathanfraires irmão, confere dps esse livro dele do Thomas Watson. Está à venda por 13 reais na Amazon. Chama-se "A Ceia do Senhor". Foi traduzido pra português. Abração, Deus te abençoe
This was really helpful, Gavin! I think I've tended to assume about the depth of meaning in communion, and I think a lot of other people have too. It's possible it's been underrepresented as a doctrine in response to how emphasized the Supper is in the Catholic/Orthodox traditions. I'd be interested in additional videos on it!
beautiful teaching--God bless all you do
FYI: I found the Thomas Watson book on the Monergism app and gave it a read. Thank you so much for the recommended. My friend has jumped ship from the Protestant faith to a Vatican 1 leaning Catholicism. He's been trying to get me to join. Watson's book really helped with seeing the richness we enjoy in the communion as Protestants. I like how he drew firm lines against transubstantiation in the book too. Made things more clear.
"Made things more clear."
Just go with scripture - THIS IS MY BODY - and the teaching of Christianity for 2000 years. REJECT 16th c man-made doctrines that came along. Those Catholic men, two priests Luther and Zwingli and the Catholic lawyer Calvin all disagreed with each other, even as they said the Church errored for 1500 years and didn't even know it. Your friend has it 100% right!
*SCRIPTURE:* 51 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
*SCRIPTURE:* 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
*SCRIPTURE:* 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
*SCRIPTURE:* 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
*SCRIPTURE:* 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
*SCRIPTURE:* 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
*SCRIPTURE:* 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
St Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of the very same St John above. A great example of HE who hears YOU, hears ME.
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
St Justin Martyr writes a few years later:
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).
St Ireneaus a few years later, against heretics:
“But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world…” Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200).
St Clement of Alexandria :
“For the blood of the grape-that is, the Word-desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both-of the water and of the Word-is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).
And thus the question is raised, just where are all those protestant beliefs on the Eucharist in the early Church? AND, how could the Church universally error and not even know it, not even meeting to discuss a disagreement on the topic?
@TruthHasSpoken do you know the gospel where Jesus tells us to eat of his flesh doesn't even include the Lord's Supper. You would think if it meant that then it would have been in that gospel.
@@stephengreater1689 "where Jesus tells us to eat of his flesh doesn't even include the Lord's Supper."
His words in the Lord's Supper are the same, highlighted in bold.
26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; *this is my body.”* 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for *this is my blood* of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Interesting too, the early Christians had no problem reconciling these teachings. A great video to watch: th-cam.com/video/P45BHDRA7pU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=9o2gY68rNh4VLtFQ
The questions remain for you:
1. why argue with scripture, with Jesus?
2. where are all those protestant beliefs on the Eucharist in the early Church?
3. how could the Church universally error and not even know it, not even meeting to discuss a disagreement on the topic?
Suggest too. Read the bread of life discourse - Jn 6 and the first paragraph in Jn 7 - and make two columns
a. those who took Jesus as speaking symbolically only
b. those who took Jesus as speaking literally
Compare the lists. What do you find?
@@stephengreater1689 "where Jesus tells us to eat of his flesh doesn't even include the Lord's Supper."
His words in the Lord's Supper are the same, highlighted in bold.
_Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Interesting too, the early Christians had no problem reconciling these teachings._
A great video to watch: th-cam.com/video/P45BHDRA7pU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=9o2gY68rNh4VLtFQ
The questions remain:
1. why argue with scripture, with Jesus?
2. where are all those protestant beliefs on the Eucharist in the early Church?
3. how could the Church universally error and not even know it, not even meeting to discuss disagreement on the topic?
Suggest too. Read the bread of life discourse - Jn 6 and the first paragraph in Jn 7 - and make two columns
a. those who took Jesus as speaking symbolically only b
. those who took Jesus as speaking literally Compare the lists.
What do you find?
@@TruthHasSpokenIt’s hard to take Rome serious when they say Catholics and Muslims worship the same God in The Catechism of the Catholic Church #841 when pre Vatican 2 Roman Church condemned the “muhammadians” as PAGANS.
Great video Gavin!
Can't wait to listen - been excited for this one for a long time!
Amen! Good video! We’re all brethren through that bread and wine!
- Your Roman Catholic Brother!
This was awesome. Thanks!
Thank you, Pastor. I have been pondering this topic for months. You helped me work through it.
I have never heard this view of communion from any protestant church. I have been to many protestant churches, and none of them ever taught this. It sounds so much like the orthodox and catholic church. what’s so strange is in my protestant walk pastors would tell me, Luther, Zwingli, and early protestants were too much like the Roman Catholic Church since they were priest in the Catholic Church. They did not convert enough. According to these pastors. But it seems like you’re saying people need to get back to the early church.
When it comes to deep reverence and deeper meaning for Holy Communion, we do need to look back and find our first love for it.
"But it seems like you’re saying people need to get back to the early church."
And in the early Church, for the first 1500++ years, those who led the faithful at Church were Catholic priests, bishops included. Protestant pastors didn't exist.
@@TruthHasSpoken this is true
I love how you ended the video with a strong emphasis on the grace Jesus offers in the Supper to all Christians who come to the table in faith… even mustard seed faith.
Gavin, great video! Would it be your view that the Westminster Confession and the London Baptist Confession both focus too much on what the Lord’s Supper is NOT, rather than what it IS?
I've gone to Baptist, Pentecostal, and non-denominational church most of my life and the lords supper was seldom taught on. So I'm trying to learn from you and history.
Thanks for another great video. I know a lot of discussion about the Lord's Supper deals with the "types of presence" in the supper, because that seems to be what separates the various Christian communities. However, it would be nice to hear an exposition on the idea, and evolution, of the Lord's supper/Eucharist as a sacrifice. Thanks, Dr. Ortlund, for these videos.
What can I say but admire this deep sermon! Sir. Excellent explanation 👌 of the traditional protestant view on the "Bread" & "Wine". This is the reason why I converted to protestantism: my impurity, though I may struggle against it, coupled with repentance is the exact requisite of the admission to the table of The Lord.
I appreciate the thoughtful reflection and presentation of the Reformed position is.
The remark that Christ Jesus is locally present in heaven and, amongst the very strictest of Calvinists, that it would be contrary to a true Human Nature for Him to have anything other than a local, confined presence, demonstrates that the separation between the Lutheran and the Reformed is a Christological issue, not merely semantic; that is, how one understands "is" or "presence."
I'd love a discussion on this topic with Dr. Jordan Cooper.
Yes! I concur!
It might be interesting to invite someone like Brett Salkeld too and have a sort of panel
Good work
85 pages in an hour? Of a Puritan? You sir are unaware of the intellectual category you occupy.
Thank you for this video Pastor Ortlund.
I know this is an old video, but this was super helpful for my own thinking as I am currently discerning between Anglicanism and the Pentecostal church of my upbringing.
May I ask why only those two traditions? There are a good number of Charismatic Anglicans, but also EPC presbyterians. Is it determining how sacramental you are convicted that the sacraments are?
I love the language of Q.76 in the Heidelberg Catechism.
Q. What does it mean to eat the crucified body of Christ and to drink His shed blood?
A. First, to accept with a believing heart all the suffering and the death of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of sins and life eternal. Second, to be united more and more to His sacred body through the Holy Spirit, who lives both in Christ and in us. Therefore, although Christ is in heaven and we are on earth, yet we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones, and we forever live and are governed by one Spirit, as the members of our body are by one soul.
That knocked my socks off the first time I read it. My sense was that it was in danger of going too far in speaking of our union with Christ, but in light of 1 Cor. 2:11-16 the language is completely biblical.
I'd say it's more than comfort Gavin. "except ye eat of my body and drink of my flesh you have no life in me".- Jesus
1 Corinthians 10:16 was precisely the verse that a college professor pointed to to reject the "merely memorial" view, and it is the one that brought me out of that view as well.
You hear a lot of "Communion Meditations" in the kinds of Protestant churches I've been a part of that read from 1 Corinthians 11, but I have never heard someone reference 1 Cor 10 during the time of the Lord's Supper at a worship service.
Well, then what was his explanation of the last supper verses in Luke's Gospel ?
I’m always impressed by your humility and scholarship. But I believe you are already an Orthodox, Anglican, or Lutheran Christian. 😊
Additionally, I have to believe this episode should be subtitled “A message to my fellow Baptists.” I simply cannot understand the Baptist view, and I am a former Baptist!
The early church fathers also tell us the “mechanics “ through the Eucharistic prayer.
I think if you agree on the presence of it you have to also ask the question: Who has the authority to do this? Who has the authority to "consecrate" the Lord's Supper and give it to others? It's been a question on my mind for a while.
Good question:
(Only thru Apostolic succession) Only a priest ordained thru the sacrament of the Holy Orders can consecrate the host of the communion and absolve a sin in the sacrament of confession.
Not even an angel, nor archangel, nor any other created power, can consecrate the host and absolve our sin - “what you bind on earth is bound in heaven”
St. John Chrysostom: "On the Priesthood" "The Paraclete Himself, instituted this vocation, and persuaded men while still abiding in the flesh to represent the ministry of angels."
All believers are priests according to the New Testament. Your view is more of developed tradition than obeying the Lord by faith. Acts 2:42-43 seems to suggest the participation of all believers, even the unfortunate passage in 1 Corinthians 11. If the "yoke" of "ordained class of priests", in my view was the norm in the New Testament Church, it would have been difficult to partake of the Lord's supper under heavy persecution the Church went through. The leadership in the Church evolved or developed slowly, abandoning the apostolic New Testament type of a group of elders leading the Church ~ who were normally chosen from the congregation with their own families and living among their own community to a monarchical hierarchy of a single Bishop in a post apostolic era.
Thank you!
While I am not an expert on his view of the Lord's Supper, I am more in line with Nevin's side of the split in the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper. It is a mystery and mystical/ spiritual. I am pretty close to a Lutheran or Orthodox view of real presence but still hanging on to spiritual presence for incarnational or Christological reasons.
So is it re-sacrificing Christ every single time or is it done to “remember me”?
That might be a false dichotomy if by "remember me" you are thinking that a mere remembrance is all that is happening. If the choice is either re-sacrifice or remembrance only, then the answer is "neither".
I don't know any Christian tradition that would deny that Holy Communion is done "in remembrance" of Christ. But the Reformed tradition (and Lutheran) believes there is much more going on (but neither teach a re-sacrificing).
It is more of a reconnecting to the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ as we receive His body & blood. The Reformed see that reception happening spiritually in heaven while the Lutherans teach it happens down here in the hand and mouth.
Great video. Whilst I am Cranmerian in my view of The Lords Supper. I do struggle with some verses. For example Jesus was actually bodily present when he told them that this was his body and blood. And, he said I will not eat if ut again until we eat together in the kingdom. Would Jesus really eat his own body? I think these verses support a more memorial view of the supper but I know there is more scripture to consider.
I am not sure why you would think those verses support a memorial view. The reformed view does not accept transubstantiation. I don't see this as a conundrum.
Consider John chapter 6 and many instances in Paul.
I was hoping this video would offer an offical doctrine about the Lord's Supper. I am trying to understand the protestant belief about the nature of it. This video started out making sense to me (the high and low view explanation), but the description from this book seemed to be almost exactly whay the Catholic Church teaches about the Eucharist, but without conceding that is what the Catholic Church teaches is correct. I am just under the impression that if you can poetically articulate beliefs that are almost identical to those of the Catholic Church, while still being able to maintain the most minimal degree of difference from it, you should be deemed a great protestant scholar.
Does Gavin (or another protestant scholar) have any other videos that explain protestant teachings of The Lord's Supper in more definitive terms?
Sorry to bring this to your attention but when it comes to Baptism and Communion, trying to get a concise Protestant stance is like trying to catch smoke. Each denomination has a stance, and the mainline churches (Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc.) are descriptive in their confessions of faith or catechisms.
Baptist and Evangelicals on the other hand are almost always memorialist. But, Dr. Ortlund here is an example of a more traditional Reformed Baptist. Because of that,I wouldn't take what he says to represent Baptist beliefs as a whole. Lastly, he is definitely a maverick leading the charge to bring the Reformed Baptist Church back to us roots
@@Godfrey118 Thank you for taking the time to explain this perspective. The catching smoke analogy was also helpful.
While I don't consider myself to be a Methodist, I go to one precisely because of their belief in the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. Plus, this is the only Protestant church I encountered that offers the Eucharist every week. I wish the Eucharist was not a monthly event in most Evangelical churches.
@ Michael Jennings, In the Catholic church we celebrate the Eucharist every day. We have daily Mass and Mass on Sunday.
Many Protestant churches, celebrate the Eucharist every Sunday. It seems more common among non-denominational churches.
Gavin this is exactly what I needed to hear as I've long struggled with the somewhat blase, symbolic view Protestants tend to take on the Eucharist. I just ordered the book and would so love to hear more on this subject - do you have a link to your sermon?
" For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink "
Thanks Gavin. This is very helpful.
The ending is beautiful.
In the RC tradition a person has to be in a state of grace to receive communion, and only the bread is given out, but the priest has the wine himself. They preach going to confession to have your sins forgiven first. Strangely you see very few people at confession, but just about everyone goes up for communion at mass.
I'm a catholic but have a very un-catholic way of seeing it. To me, it was intended to be a private meal for his apostles only, and "do this in remembrance of me" looks like "eat what I've given you in remembrance of me". If it was a cannibalistic feast you would expect to see whole passages where the apostles were in shock, and ill, and needing medical attention. There's none of that. Making me wonder if it was metaphorical.
Many Catholics point to John 6 as Jesus establishing the need to physically consume him.
Yet the events of John 6 were about a year before the Last Supper.
Why would Jesus tell his followers to do something that would not be established for another twelve months?
What? Please read John 6 . Btw communion in both forms has been the practice for RC beginning with Vatican 2 in 1960’s.
@@tammymorris2268 I'm afraid it's not. Go to any RC mass. The priest gets the bread and wine, but the laity just get the bread. And that's in every RC church. I should know, I go there on Sundays.
Seems outrageous doesn't it?
@@geordiewishart1683 The only way I can imagine is the Lord knew He would be having the Lord's supper in a year's time, as He's God. So could He have been telling them in advance?
And to me it looks like He was telling them to eat and drink what He was giving them "in remembrance of me". If it was only for those in the room, why do we try to re-enact it?
Brant Pitre wrote an absolutely spectacular scholarly book on the last Supper called JESUS AND THE LAST SUPPER. It is not just keeping the body of Christ in Communion with Him and each other with the divine life of Christ. It is also the living bread that is food for the new exodus to the New Jerusalem.
In the middle of it right now. Outstanding.
Brant Pitre’s “Jesus and the Last supper” is a wonderful, thorough scholarly work! 👍👍👍👍
As long as you realize Brant Pitre is not infallible. Scholars can be truly convincing yet still be wrong.
@@kaysandee I realize that Brant Pitre is not infallible. I also realize that every self-proclaim expert or pastor is at least as infallible as Brant Pitre.
Brant Pitre doesn't invent historical truth. He researches the bible and Jewish history for it. I would trust him over a self-appointed minister any day.
Brant Pitre also understand exactly how Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. How many Calvinists do you know that get that?
Dr. Orlund, at this point in his research, is trying to reconcile his tradition with that of the early church. He is admirably taking a stab at understanding how the teachings of the apostles were practiced in the early church. There are a few OT scholars who could help, if he would listen. You can only go so far with Protestant scholars. They simply weren't there. The early fathers were. It can't hurt to listen to them and reconcile it with the REASON for their practices based on Judaism. Why do you think the Christian religion caught on so quickly? The early Christians didn't see it as foreign. Why? That's what the Jewish roots can explain.
@@bazzy8376 I've read, met and studied Brant's work. Really nice guy, thorough and well studied and spoken. I still stand by my comment. Not a debate.
Interesting, I don't get it, as a former pentacostal, I always saw the presence of the Lord present in everything we do in worship. Everyday life. He is ever present, there is nowhere where he is not present. Is He extra present at the breaking bread and wine? I never thought He wasn't present. 🤷🏻♂️ although this video made me want to focus and see if I could learn more into this moment. Something I may not know. Thank you for the video.
John chapter 6, please study it in prayer.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the lords supper.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard a Christian say that the communion is more important than God’s word.
This is one of the criticisms of the Roman Catholics
Jesus orders this in John chapter 6. Please study this chapter and pass it on to your friends. 😊
helllooo! I have a question/concern. Is not having a perfect understanding or taking a firm stance on whether the supper is memorial or spiritual, or literal, (etc) drinking judgement on yourself? For example, if I go to communion in my evangelical church (that broadly holds a zwingli view) and i'm not sure exactly where I land theologically speaking on the nature of the presence of Christ, if I go and take the supper anyway before coming to a firm stance, and just take it in faith and mystery, am I drinking condemnation on myself as paul talks about in corinthinas?
hi Sophia! No, that is not eating and drinking judgment on yourself. It is good to keep working on your understanding of it, but the Corinthian problem was much more severe than that. They were getting drunk on the wine, etc. Hope that gives you some peace of mind.
Can you compare it side by side with Scott Hahn's book?
Could you consider doing a video on closed communion? I really struggle with being left out of communion at Loved Ones’ churches. To me, Communion is the big moment for “communion of the [earthly/heavenly] saints”, for unity of true Believers.
Churches who take the Supper at face value get great comfort and assurance from it. Moreover, they consider it to be a basic belief because to them it requires no interpretation, only believing, taking, and eating. So when someone comes to church and they refuse to believe something so easy and basic, it's hard not to suspect them of being a "reviler." And according to 1 Cor 5:11, we are not to eat even secular food with christians who do not accept correction, i.e. revilers. Hope that helps explain the perspective.
You need to truly believe that the host is the body of Christ and you must receive Him in a state of grace (no mortal sin), otherwise it is sacrilege to receive the host. (In this state, you are ready to join the saints in heaven)
Didache (90AD) "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles" - the earliest written catechism.
The Lords instruction on how to worship Him:
"On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure. Let no one who has a quarrel with his neighbor join you until he is reconciled by the Lord. In every place and time let there be offered to me a clean sacrifice."
@@jamesrey3221 The RCC Eucharist is sacrilegious.
@@jamesrey3221 The Didache states no where in it that The Thanksgiving is the real and physical body and blood of Christ. It has great reverence for the ordinance, and takes about a third or so of this little book in giving instruction for it, but it just doesn't state that. The Didache which is such an early writing, predating most of the church fathers, really showed me how this transubstantiation doctrine evolved over time and became more and more elaborate.
@@joycegreer9391 The RCC Eucharist practice is hyper reverent. We need to be careful what we call sacrilege. They hold is as their most sacred and revered sacrament, as far as I can tell.
“Take the cup, ma’am. It is FOR sinners.”
IS this the standard Baptist view? I feel like this view is in the London Baptist confession 1689, but I don't see this in many practicing baptististic churches
The presence in the Eucharist is the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us in John 6:63 that the flesh is worthless it is the Holy Spirit. In John 6:68 Peter said that it is to give Eternal life (Holy Spirit and Light) and save the unsaved.
The last Supper was a Rememberance only as they all were previously saved.
Jesus didn’t say “eat my spiritual presence”, he said “eat my flesh and drink my blood”. Many walked away from this hard teaching, are you one of them?
Somehow according the protestantism - and not just Gavin - the Church universally errored on the Lord's Supper for the first 1500 years and didn't even know it. Never a synod or council to debate the issue!! There were not any protestant "pastors" during those first 1000+ years. Those who led the Christian "congregations" were Catholic priests, bishops included, who led the faithful at Mass, where they believed through their words of consecration, the bread and wine transformed into the resurrected Christ.
If you believe in the trinity, the father, son and holy spirit are the one God. In that case if the Lord imbued the bread with the holy spirit then He imbued it with Himself. Mystery solved.
That was great, thanks.
I know it would require more work on your part, but I would love it if you posted links in the description to past videos you mention over the course of the video I’m currently watching.
Dr. Ortlund, are you a Calvinist?
For this sacrament...
@@schmi146 Please elaborate on your point.
Calvin believed in baptizing infants. So that's 50% similarity with regards to the sacraments.
@@schmi146 haha yes, a Calvinist is more than somebody who believes in the sovereignty of God. Helpful to point out! Historically, Baptists and Calvinists/Reformed were distinguished.
@@schmi146 Fair point. But I wanted to know if Dr. Ortlund is a Calvinist. I was talking about soteriology.
I can't understand how it makes sense in the light of the gospel, after having stated that this is a visual sermon, to stick to the idea that Jesus is not coming to us, but we to him, that it's not incarnational, but purely spiritual. Makes very little sense to me. To be able to tell the laity that He is coming to us, is the gospels foundation. This is the foundational difference of Lutherans and Reformed, and Luther was right to recognize that this is hard to reconcile, and would undermine the Lutheran pastoral preaching of the core of the gospel, Christs precence everywhere, also on earth, indeed the Kingdoms precense with us now. We do indeed rise, but only because He decends with us. There is no preaching in the sacrament if it is not about the incarnation and bodily precense.
Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding, but this is hard for me to get around. It forms the core of my understanding of the gospel.
Thanks Gavin, such an encouraging and helpful video - we have a great Savior!
A great video, Gavin! Really challenged my perspective on the reformed perspective of what "spiritual presence" means!
Beautiful teaching, thank you!
Was there any other teaching that Jesus Christ said He was "eager" to give His disiciples?
There is a “formula” that makes baptism valid. Is there anything similar necessary, in your opinion, for the Lord’s Supper?
Good question. I'm not Gavin, but I would say at the very least using the Lord's words of institution and the elements of bread and wine. One could add a validly ordained celebrant, the epiclesis (calling upon the Holy Spirit),...the list could get quite long.
@“Words of Life” with Dr. Steven Nemes …I don’t think they have enough evidence to make this claim. Justin Martyr in 155AD outlined the Mass, including the Eucharist. The words of institution were not mentioned, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. Much of the documents from that time period did not survive…
@“Words of Life” with Dr. Steven Nemes Thanks for that interesting point! Sometimes a longstanding practice can be assumed to be at the core of a liturgical act when in fact it is not. I'm curious, Prof. Nemes, do you know if there was a discernable oral tradition that predates our earliest Eucharistic liturgies? There must have been something spoken, right? Do we know the general shape of that?
@@mj6493 thanks for your response. Would believing the doctrine of “real presence” in the Lord’s Supper be necessary? In other words, is there an objective reality which unfolds no matter the subjective belief of the one who says these words (the words of the Lord’s consecration)?
@“Words of Life” with Dr. Steven Nemes I'm not sure if you want to call it a formula, but Paul clearly says, "For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you,..." in his letter to the Corinthians in relation to the verba. And when exactly would he have received this from the Lord? Does he mean he received it from Peter in Damascus? I'll leave it to the scholars.
Interesting thoughts. It seems like the reformation started out to try and tweak the church slightly but maybe over time became taken over by the gnostics. I feel like Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaus already defeated them but here we see again movements to decoupling the spiritual from the physical and focus only on the spiritual. Irenaus pray for us.
Given that the RCC is schismatic, and Luther’s reforms are born of a spirit of schism that his colleagues like Calvin and Zwingli maintained, it’s not really surprising how chaotic the beliefs and practices of Protestants are.
@@nathanmagnuson2589 How do you figure the Roman Catholic church is schismatic? They have always maintained communion with the throne of King and his majordomo.
Theres a reason is the schism between the RCC and the EO is a schism between Rome and the other Orthodox patriarchates. Even the OO are closer to orthodoxy than the RCC at this point imo.
watching this now. I think Chan is right about the replacement of the LS in a sense. The LS was the main central feature for a good while. Then the Protestants brought back the Word as central also. The Word was also central in biblical and in early Christianity along with the sacraments. Thus, the sacraments and especially the LS lost some of the centrality since it is now shared with the Word.
To be clear I see word and sacrament central in Biblical and early Church worship. At some point in the Middle Ages the centrality of the Word diminished and thus the sacraments became the only thing that was really central. The reformers (and the pre-reformers) brought back the Word as central along with the sacrament.
I’ve been thinking about doing daily communion with my family in the home. Anybody have any thoughts on this? Is there any biblical/historical precedent for this? Would I be overstepping in any way? I loved the video. I don’t think any of us truly know whether the presence is real or what mode of realness it exists. I think C.S. Lewis was wise when he pointed out that we were instructed to “take and eat”, not- take and understand.
I don't think there's much doubt that the presence is real or Paul would not have said we are participating in the body of Christ. Are you in a situation where you can't take communion at church? As Gavin pointed out, the normative position is to take it with his people, the body of Christ. But we do have Christian freedom so maybe you can take it at home. For myself, and only for myself, I would not.
Hi Gavin! Just really curious about the Scottish minister you mentioned at 18.22. What was his name? This really moved me. Thank you.
The portions you read out were very rich indeed and devotional. As a Catholic(and ex-Lutheran), that gives me a new appreciation for Puritans (well at least some of them!). I had a decent understanding of the higher Calvinist view (had read more on Calvin's own view) but didn't think any Puritan theologian would fall towards that end of the spectrum. A very irenic/ecumenical discussion by a Catholic on these matters was had several months ago on Gospel Simplicity where Brett Salkeld was interviewed and showed a well-informed appreciation of Calvin's view of Spiritual Presence - of course, in the end Salkeld does not think it is adequate but that is to be expected.
Actually, your video does raise my curiosity that given your rather high view of this sacrament and its relative centrality - how often is it offered/celebrated by your congregation (I realize its frequency may not be dictated solely by your personal views)?
Efficacy for what? Why would a believer need to reapply grace for salvation on a weekly basis - unless you think we are always getting unsaved?
Thank you for this video!
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.””
John 6:47-58, 66-69 ESV
Many of his followers left him over this, but he didn’t say “don’t go, I meant it was just a symbol.” Jesus doubled down on his carefully chosen words. Hard to explain the real presence away, without saying Jesus was wrong. The church fathers closest to the source universally believed in the real presence…
Someone has posted that this is 1 year before the last supper. So John 6 can only make sense if it's (a) metaphor ical or (b) prophesy for the future.
This was fascinating, and speaks to a lot of my theological journey from a more memorialist view to a more Cranmerian view (I am now a deacon in the Church of England). I have to ask though, have you, Gavin, ever felt or experienced anything special while taking the Lord's Supper? I've come to believe it is the foundation and fulcrum of our worship, and technically I believe we should be encountering Christ in a profound way through it. But if I'm honest, I have never once "encountered" or "felt" or "experienced" anything that I would call divine or transcendent when taking it, whereas I have experienced such moments of transcendent beauty and joy and conviction and awe, etc, through the preached word and through sung worship. All I experience in the Eucharist is the bland flavour of the wafer/bread, and the sweet flavour of the wine, while I'm trying my best to hold out my heart in vulnerable faith before Jesus, but not actually sensing any emotional or spiritual movement in my inner being. Am I expecting too much? Shouldn't mystical, experiential encounters with the living person of Christ be as readily available to me through the sacrament as they are through sung worship and the preached word? I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts.
Love what you do on this channel - your irenic approach to dialogue is inspiring.
I suspect it's because we hope to experience something divine in the mechanics of taking the Eucharist into ourselves. The divine encounter w/ the Eucharist is a spiritual sense. That's why you feel this divine connection through other means of worship like song, or physical worship, and through the hearing of the word.
I too hoped for a mystical experience w/ the Eucharist. I was praying for the truth of transubstantiation to be revealed, while going to Catholic Mass. I didn't want to miss out, if there was a deeper truth we protestants have been missing. The closest I came to that divine experience was in talking about taking it, w/ a Catholic deacon, at the parish I'd been going to. I got very emotional, and realized I'd come to a deep love and appreciation for the Eucharist, that I hadn't had before, in having it taught as a mere memorial. It had become something more to me. Something deeply spiritual, something ineffable and mysterious. I was honest w/ the kind deacon about not being able to connect w/ transubstantiation though. Through my tears and broken voice, he could tell my deep reverence and connection to it. He told me to keep taking it. I was very grateful, because usually Catholics don't want protestants to partake w/ them, because of our differences in beliefs about it. My belief was only nominally different at this point.
I think generally the Reformed tradition _would_ place the Sacraments "below" the Word in general, and Watson is saying _in these particular ways_ the Supper is superior, but generally not. Calvin holds (in one of his tracts on the topic) that the Sacrament only has meaning and validity _because of_ the Word, therefore is necessarily inferior.
Agreed. But to be fair, this is essentially similar to what Luther would say is the relationship between Word and Sacrament as well.
@@matthewlamaster342 But while the sacraments "derive" their meaning and power from the Word (both written, in terms of institution and incarnate by way of command)... the Word can also rightly be called "sacramental" (there is grace/power in the Word), thus their relation is less derivative and more reciprocal.
This is why I don't see them as competitive, at least not in regards to the "altar vs pulpit" tension. There is no tension, they are both central, the Liturgy of the Word (synaxis), and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (meal) -- both informing each other. The Reformers merely brought _equal weight_ to the sermon (lacking in the Middle Ages) while maintaining the Medieval importance of the supper.
@@poordoubloon10 Yes, about the alter vs. pulpit tension. I've noticed that Catholic like to use the fact they have an alter for their worship, rather than a mere pulpit, but they use it as a bully pulpit.
Can communion only occur with a pastor or priest present to officiate it?
As a Roman Catholic I admire you work on this subject. However, my issue with Protestantism is the drifting away from a doctrine due to no central authority keeping us in place. I don't say this in an attacking mode, just an observation
The Christians authority is scripture. Sola scriptura.
This was very good, but a few places where I might "nudge" you to continue the conversation. 1) I think when we speak of "spiritual" presence, we unwittingly inject an alien metaphysics into our explanation by using the lower case "s" instead of a capitol "S." I would argue that one should not pit "spiritual" against "physical," rather it should be "Spiritual" but not "local" (i.e. a mysterious working of the Holy Spirit). Body and blood are quintessentially physical and saying "spiritual body" or "spiritual blood" by which one means "non-physical body and blood" sounds oxymoronic. Our whole persons (body, blood, & soul) are so united to the whole Christ, that participation in his real body and blood are an essential part of our salvation. Calvin sought to teach this with his imagery of us being brought up to heaven to feed upon Christ. 2) I agree that faith is necessary and I am a receptionist and not a consecrationist, but at the same time, we must resist the temptation to make the efficacy overly cerebral. Christ said "do this" not "think about this". The command of Christ is to eat and to drink. I would argue that faith receives the sacrament in an "embodied" manner by one's eating and drinking. It does not become efficacious by the power of our ability to think rightly about the sacrament. Here I think Paul's words about discerning the body are misunderstood. Discernment was not discerning the sacrament qua sacrament, but rather discerning the corporate practice of this meal as a meal of unity and not division. Anyway, peace!
How can the sacrament be just as important as the word of God
Because the Sacrament *includes* the Word of God.
"Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." is the Word of God straight from the Savior's mouth offering both a command/invitation and a promise to be believed.
The Sacrament is the Word connected to visible elements.
This was great! I'll get that book for christmas!
I loved that sentence "take the cup, it is for sinners!"
at least in Germany sometimes a great emphasize is played on examening yourself and this part is missed, which always made me sad.
So I made a video about it and maybe I'll do a follow up after reading Watsons book. Thanks for the content!!! 😍
Thank you Dr. Gavin Ortlund.
ok but do we receive grace unto continuation of our salvation through receiving the sacrament?
Beautiful quote 19:21~
I was stunned when i first read the Puritans, they had such a high view of the Sacraments. (Thomas Watson was the first)
What I’m struggling most to understand with respect to this view is how the body of Christ (a physical thing) is present in a spiritual way. Is there a Reformed source that dives deeply into that? The idea of the spiritual presence of a physical thing is sort of breaking my brain.
Dr. Ortlund I do believe you should've prefeced this video by stating that "Real Presence" is not the majority view among Baptists.
In my experience, Orthodox worship places far more emphasis on the sacrament/mystery of the Eucharist than modern Protestant worship -- in Orthodoxy, the Eucharist is the climax of the liturgy, whereas it is just another thing that happens to be lumped into Protestant Sunday church. That has been my experience; your mileage may vary.
Thank you very much for this video. Yes, I'd liked t to see more like it.
Good video, however I think a balanced and accurate historical theology of the Protestant Reformation reveals they hold the primacy of the Word preached, not the primacy of the sacraments. That does not mean a low view or undervaluing the sacraments. Just like how Paul placed baptism under the preached word in his priority as an apostle 1 Cor. 1:17. The sacraments are appended to the word for the purpose of confirming or sealing it, they do not exist independently of the word but it is the word that gives life to the sacraments. The same grace received through the sacraments is the same grace received in the preached word.
I think this is an inaccurate statement. The early reformers all had sacramental theology. Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopals, Methodists, Presbyterians all believe in some form of real presence. The more recent in history you go, the more sacraments are dropped for “Bible only” denominations.
@@billmartin3561 bill, first, Lutherans and Anglicans should be distinguished from the historic reformed churches and reformed confessions (Methodists as well). The “Reformed” are distinguished from the Anglicans, Lutherans, Anabaptists, etc. in multiple ways for multiple reasons. Many have seemed to lose that distinguishing classification today. The primacy of the preached word was central to the growth and doctrine of the Reformation. Also, as a Reformed Presbyterian who subscribes to the original Westminster Standards, I do not deny a high view of the Lord’s Supper. It is not a bare memorial, the Reformed repudiate that. Just because Reformers and Reformed confessions held the primacy of the preached word does not mean they diminished the sacraments. It’s not inaccurate to say the Reformed churches held the primacy of the preached word while maintaining a high view of the sacraments, it’s what the reformers and reformed confessions attested to. I’m not arguing on behalf of Lutherans or Anglicans or Baptists or Methodists, I’m simply reiterating what the Reformed branch of the Reformation heralded. It’s what the ministers were primarily commissioned to do in the first place 2 Tim 4:2
Jacob, I concur with your well-written assessment: it is quite clear that Calvin believed in the primacy of the Word preached. I think Dr. Ortlund may be misreading Watson, though I haven't read a ton of Watson myself.
Bill, when we are discussing anything "Reformed", we are not discussing "Bible only". The latter is the result of a degeneration of primarily baptist theology and has a different origin and history.
@@jacobcarne8316 I appreciate your qualification there, not claiming to speak for all Protestants. As a Lutheran, and influenced by Anglicanism greatly (liturgically and otherwise), I can with some authority represent the "other side" of the Reformation.
It is true that the Reformers as such emphasized the primacy of the Word in an age that held primacy to the sacraments (and the sacrifice of the mass, more specifically)... yet, I see this not as an attempt to "put the sacraments in their place", but to elevate the [preached] Word to the same level that the sacraments enjoyed in the Middle Ages (thus restoring, rather than introducing the ancient balance between the synactic Liturgy of the Word, and the Eucharistic Liturgy).
Their relationship is one of reciprocity, not subordination. The sacraments are "visible words" (to quote St Augustine) but the Word -- preached -- is rightly understood as having sacramental effect (vocal sounds carrying the grace of the Holy Spirit to the hearers); hence why we Lutherans have always classified Holy Absolution within Private Confession, as a "third sacrament" despite no obvious _visible_ sign.