One BIG argument for Protestantism: Catholicity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- Protestantism is a renewal movement within the church, but does not claim to be the "one true church." This claim better matches the principles laid out in the New Testament for discerning the church than the rival claims of traditions such as Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and others.
NOTE: I said the Dositheus quote was made against those who affirm the filioque; after the video I re-read the context and its actually more about those outside the true episcopate. But it amounts to the same kind of exclusivity. See my debate with Father Patrick Ramsey for more such quotations.
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
01:00 - Claims of Exclusivity
06:52 - Principles of Discerning the True Church
15:03 - A Final Challenge
This is the main reason that I never considered the Catholic Church, among other troublesome doctrines. This reminds me of a controlling partner who tells you that if you leave them, you’ll never make it. I see no justification for using threats within a church other than manipulation.
That argument is self-refuting. Replace "Catholic" with "Christian" and you've got an argument that an atheist would use against Christianity.
@@mooretristan719 Exactly.
@@mooretristan719You, as a Catholic, only think that because you put your man made institution (RCC) at the same level as God. Leaving the Church doesn't damn you, turning your back on Christ does.
@@JohnSmith-zs1bfso let’s put this another way: leaving the body of Christ doesn’t same you. Is that true? If so, then that is the same as saying, “leaving the church”. Because the body of Christ is the church.
@@TheB1nary the body of Christ is not the Roman Catholic Church that came to be after Paul's writing. Additionally you are saved by grace through faith not by your merit. If you have that faith given to you by the grace of God, you are saved. Even if you are wrong about the details, even if you picked the "wrong" denomination. Yes the church is the body of Christ and He is the head of the church, but that church is the entire body or Christ, not merely the Roman institution with all its modern inventions. If you leave the RCC to follow Christ more truly, you are blessed. If by leaving the church you mean turning your back on God, denying who he is, and elevate and celebrate sin, then maybe yeah you are damned, but like you said the church is about Christ, not about the rcc.
As a new Christian all this kind of topics on "true church" caused me massive anxiety and stress. I prayed and prayed and read and read and basically came to the same conclusion you have brother.
Where Jesus and the bible alone is supreme, you are safe. Remember it's Jesus ALONE that takes us to God. Jesus alone.
@@addjoaprekobaah5914 Christians worship Jesus, not the bible.
@maxonmendel5757 are you trolling? How do we know who Jesus is? Where do we go to learn about him and what he did, and what he expects of us?
@@maxonmendel5757 The other person does have a good point. The bible has to lead the church and the Christian. If we don't have the word of God to lead us to God what does any church or Christian have?
@@saintejeannedarc9460 the Ethiopian eunuch had Isaiah and he still needed an apostle to teach him. theres little sufficiency of scripture to teach new Christians who aren't already familiar with the text. New Christians don't need a book. they need good teachers. Scripture can be twisted even by the devil to teach terrible things, and has been for centuries.
and the first Christians only had the apostles and didn't have the New Testament. and they were among the best Christians!
I found myself sinking under the pressure of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic assertion that i was outside and lost..
I was beginning to be quite confused, because the barriers to me joining the EO & RC Churches were the veneration of icons, the background of the Rosary, the elevated position of Mary minimising the graciousness of the Father and Jesus Himself..
Those all did not sit well in my spirit, and yet i was trying my best to squeeze myself into the idea of one of those traditions ultimately being where i was supposed to be..
I was requiring a clear, non adversarial discussion on this, and thankfully found your channel..
Your grace as you discuss this topic is welcomed, and your approach is entirely respectful..
I am so relieved, and my peace is returning to me..
Thank You for your ministry, i will continue to watch your videos..
🙏
Wow. To be honest I’ve been wrestling with the this issue so much the last few months, finally started attending church as a born again Christian. I was baptized as a baby into the EOC and didn’t learn ANYTHING about who Christ was or how God operates. Just that I need to attend liturgy on holidays and kiss icons and take communion. I became agnostic and into spirituality in my teens well into the age of 23 when God literally caused a 180 degree flip in my heart and made me put my faith into Jesus. A truly unexplainable moment because it was so hard for so long for me to accept Jesus as my savior. I want to get rebaptized - mainly because my first baptism wasn’t even a full immersion into water- but because I’ve felt my entire life change from being worldly to becoming Godly. Praise the Lord, praise Jesus. 💗💗💗✝️
You have had a similar experience as me. I too never knew what Jesus actually did for us despite being brought to the Orthodox Church from birth, practically. Didn't even know that the Lord's Prayer was given to us by Jesus. Oh but icons, the Virgin Mary, the liturgy, the holidays? Yea, I knew all about those.
@@pitAlexx yeah! And then I look at kids who were brought up Protestant- they were taught everything! They know all the biblical stories and just what Jesus did for humanity.
This is interesting to hear of people who came out of the OC. We will get Orthodox come into comments such as these and they tend to despise protestants and not recognize them as Christians at all. There is no discussing w/ them that was have accept Jesus as Savior and Lord. They don't even see this as the central issue, or something we have in common. They just talk about how they are the only true church and apostolic succession. That seems to matter far more than Jesus as savior and Lord, and reacding the bible to renew our minds and sanctify our hearts so we can live the Christian way, convicted of sin, and led to produce good fruit. Where is the fruit, where is the brotherly love w/ these people, did you ever witness it?
Had the same experience but with the Catholic church, we were never taught anything. Just hearing Latin was creepy to me and people going up to take the Eucharists. Same monotonous songs. Till this day when I hear them I cringe. The words dead religion comes to mind. Then I became born again through reading the powerful word of God.
I had a similar experience. Praise God!
Just love your videos. I am a baptist too, converted in 1999 from orthodoxy, but saved only by the blood of Our Lord and Saviour,and I resonate intimately with your words. I find some of your videos deeply theological but what I found out was that I had the same answers and revelations given through the Holy Spirit. You are doing a great work brother and if someone wants to live in disunity let them be. We are called to unity in Christ through the Holy Spirit who was given to all those who believe!
It doesn't seem like many Orthodox come out of that. Not only does it make the most lofty claims to the only way, it seems to have such strong ethnic favouritism. Seems like more go into it, or try to.
What drew you to becoming baptist? Maybe you can help me out w/ understanding Gavin's type of baptist. I guess there's many kinds now, but I thought they were against speaking in tongue, exorcisms and more pentacostal doctrines. Gavin seems more full gospel, and definitely pentacostal friendly. Not a bad thing at all, it just really surprised me.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 bump
Holy smokes, thank you! This video is an answer to prayer, and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your ministry. I have a tremendous amount of respect for each of the traditions, and honestly one of the only things that I find really hurtful is that condescending pharisaical assumption that anyone who is not (as you said ) on Noah’s Ark is damned and certainly can’t receive the Eucharist in any valid format. The longer I have been walking with the Lord, The more I have come to recognize that there are true believers and make believers in every single tradition and denomination. You are such an incredible blessing. Thankful for all you do especially considering how busy you are!
Thanks Heidi, so glad this was helpful to you!
What's a true believer? From what I've seen, every religious person thinks they are one. How do we know, since we are just simple creatures?
@@seraeirian2 I think that the Holy Spirit tells true believers that they are saved (as opposed to our own minds knowing it directly or figuring it out). If we feel we are saved, but we are not sure if it is the Spirit speaking to us, we could pray, read the relevant Scriptures, and receive encouragement and advice from church members and friends.
@@seraeirian2
A true believer in the early Church was someone who loved God, loved Christ Jesus, loved the brethren and loved others.
Christianity is about living for God (His kingdom/will) and living to bless others, rather than living for one’s life in this world.
The confusion ramped up when the Church councils started hammering out their theology. Not because the theology is wrong but because the focus went from ‘you are my brother if you live for God/Jesus and others’ to ‘you are my brother if you affirm the latest councils claims’.
God bless
@@seraeirian2 I am always gently perplexed at comments like this. Does the scripture ever make mention of "true believe" vs "false believer"? I think the distinction is between "believer" and"non-believer". And it looks to me that a believer is someone who is convinced that Jesus is the messiah, the one who gives Life.
Born and raised Catholic and I loved this
This is so good, Gavin!!! My wife and I are in the process of leaving the Orthodox Church and this is the absolute *core* issue for me. I could not in good conscience continue to claim that I was a part of the One True Church and that the other godly Christians I've known throughout my life were either, at best, missing out on "the fullness of the faith" (as the more generous Orthodox would put it), or at worse, outside of the ark of salvation altogether. This right here is what I keep coming back to. Christ *is* the fullness of the faith. He is sufficient. Whoever has Him, has the fullness. For what can be fuller than having Christ Himself?
For clarification: I realize the last few, short sentences I wrote above could be seen as overly-simplistic. I understand that. But there is a very real sense in which those are very accurate statements. Please also understand that I do not say "Christ is enough" in the spirit of "No creed but Christ" or "Me, Jesus, and the Bible." Far from it. I just mean to say that anyone who has Christ has the fullness of the faith. We could all argue about what that means, but it's still the truth.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ryan, glad to be connected to you!
Yes, in the end it is all about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is the One Who saves--not the Church, even though she is His bride. That said, I can't go the route of the type of ecumenism that says if you claim Christ you are a Christian. Many false christs have gone out into the world.
Ryan, so why do so many Protestant Pastors teach Roman Catholics are not even Christian, and are not saved, and teach a false Gospel?
Holy Scripture teaches we must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and persevere to the end to be saved, and that the manifold wisdom of God is revealed through the CHURCH! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
@@melodysledgister2468 no one claims the Church saves, just that faith ALONE does not save, for even if one has ALL FAITH, but does not LOVE, IT IS USELESS, as Holy Scripture teaches we must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and persevere to the end to be saved! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Thank you for speaking on these things brother! I have been Catholic for a while, but have been going to a Baptist church for a couple months now. I have disagreed with a lot of RCC doctrines and practices for a while, but it was incredibly difficult to break free from because of this idea of no salvation outside the RCC. The worst part for me is that the official teaching in the Catechism is that other Christian's can be saved through the mystery of God's mercy, but that a Catholic who leaves the RCC is damned. The Catechism says that even a Hindu or Buddhist could be saved, but because I have left the RCC, I would be damned, even though I still worship Jesus and do my best to follow Him. Even though I could see that this didn't make sense on an intellectual level, it was hard to make sense of on a heart level. Hearing someone else point out the inconsistencies in these teachings is helpful.
Read through the Counsil of Trent on Justification and a Catholic Bible. Read it like 2x so that it will be clear to you.
@@Gailean26
I've read the Council of Trent and Catholic translations of the Bible, as well as the CCC. This was something I agonized over within the RCC for years. RCC teaching on justification doesn't align with what the Bible teaches.
There are different versions of Roman theology - from the 'hopeful universalism' of "bishop Barron' and the 'narrow way' of one of the conservative professors at Sacred Heart Seminary which trains American Romanist "priests."
I don't think that Rome *is* the "one true Church founded by Christ" so their condemnations don't apply to me. Of course this is very different from the views and practices of the Counter Reformation Romanists, who rejoiced to see the 'heretics' executed and persecuted. Throughout Germany, Italy, France, England, Ireland, the thousands of Protestant martyrs bear witness. It is not necessary for salvation to submit to the "bishop of Rome." The Lord Jesus Christ, the only Head of the Church, is the only Name given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12). If you study early Baptist history in the 1600s, who considered themselves Protestants, who considered themselves part of the one true Catholic (universal) church. Remember that not everyone followed Rome before Luther - Lollards, Hussites of Waldenses, plus the Russians, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Ethiopians, etc. Americans Romanists will often say things like everybody was Roman Catholic before Luther' which is obviously false. The Scriptures always have been the Word of God and always have brought sinners to faith in Jesus. The scriptures were read in the Latin West and Greek Eas
@@movingamountain I would also add to the point that Luther and Calvin both considered the Papacy the Antichrist spoken of in prophecy. Confessional Reformed and Lutherans still hold to this. The early British Reformation held to this too, for example Cramner held the Papacy was Antichrist. The Pope claims to be the Head of the Church, but Scripture says that Christ is the Head of the Church and never teached that the bishop of Rome is the Head of the Church, even though Scripture is ABLE to make one wise for salvation which is through faith in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy chapter2) and Scripture equips the man of God for EVERY good work, including teaching and rebuking.
You sound a little like myself more then 10 years ago. I encourage you Read the New Testament, esp the Epistles and Gospels and Acts. Repent of sin. Trust in Jesus for salvation. Get around good Christian brothers. Stay away from false teachers that deny the Trinity or claim false miracles or special knowledge that isn't in Scripture.
If you don't have a copy of 'Roman Catholic Controversy' by James White, it covers the most common arguments that Romanist apologists use, from the debates White did with various Romanists. Realize that Rome wasn't built in a day and Romanism developed slowly over centuries. Realize there is disagreement within Rome over theology - inerrancy vs limited Inerrancy Predestination - Molinis. Vs thomism, young earth vs theistic evolution, global flood vs local flood, literal Adam and Eve or not, hopeful universalism vs narrow road, the status of 3rd Esdras, Moses as author of Exodus or not, Paul as author of his epistles or not, whether the death penalty is absolutely morally wrong in every sense, etc. Rome disagrees amongst themselves over Salvation, Scripture, and Creation. And you may already be familiar with differences in practices - charismatic, Latin Mass, the Catholic Left (pacifism), etc. And of course the debates within Rome over homosexuality (the German Synod). Just something to remember when you see Protestants disagreeing on something.
On TH-cam, the defense of the Ausburg Confession' by Melancthon is free to listen to, and he makes some good points that are helpful.
@@truthisbeautiful7492 I've now come to similar conclusions. I'm almost finished reading a book called Romanism and the Reformation that lays it out extremely well. It's a great read, but it also sounds like you know your stuff. Reading the Bible is the most important part. That is definitely the reason I've been able to resist Rome under the heavy psychological pressure they put on people over any other reason. When you know the Word, you can spot the counterfeits. Maranatha brother!
I'm Catholic and I agree with you. While I haven't had any interest in leaving, I honestly don't feel confident that everyone would flourish better in the Catholic Church than in another group of their choice.
This is probably the nicest Catholic comment I've ever seen in regards to this topic. Everytime I tell a practicing Catholic I left the church and I'm now a non-denominational Christian they tell me I'm going to hell because I left the one true church. It kinda hurts when I hear them say that and honestly it just drives me further away from the Catholic church.
As a Catholic, I've personally met plenty of good Protestants (my girlfriend is such an amazing Christian despite her struggles with church) and I accept that yes, Christ is working in those other churches! :) I think I take a bit of umbrage with the Unam Sanctam point because V2 has already addressed that point while still being historically consistent.
I also feel that, because of the CC's huge move towards ecumenism, I find that it is actually more probable (at least, compared to previous centuries) that the CC is a home for... Well not all, but definitely more Christians!
Love yall :)
@zzcando I haven't had to deal with that but I know others who have. Luckily for me my family seems to be straying away from the Catholic religion
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund! This exclusivity in the RCC has always bothered me, even though I was raised Roman Catholic. The passage from Mark 9 is really eye opening.
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation" - The church leaves all judgement to God.
For these individuals, God administers the grace of salvation in ways known to him alone
This is more inclusive than some "Christian Churches" that directly condemn people who do not believe in Christ..
This was so good. As someone who is wrestling with a lot of the claims made by the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, this is extremely helpful. It's something I've said before and had slipped my mind as I've been getting deeper and deeper into Church history and all that. God does do miracles in all denominations.
@Marygladis Chidozie Instead of resting and trusting in God, Martin Luther allowed his fear and feeling of unworthiness to entice his ego. The sower of doubt is temper, who even tempted our Lord Jesus in the desert not to mention his unfortunate relationship with his biological father. It seems pretty clear that Luther’s relationship with his father influenced his relationship with God, ultimately exposing his ego through his sense of unworthiness, in the waning years of his priesthood. His personal division has been the source of further division in the church.
Hey Elizabeth what is your current state?
Elizabeth Rene two great reads:
1.) Have you read Trent Horns book?
th-cam.com/video/rSV0C8UR1Hg/w-d-xo.html
2.) Patrick Madrid also have a book called
Why Be Catholic?
@@australopithecusafarensis8927 Interesting. The scars of his youth definitely shaped Luther’s Life. He couldn’t silence the doubt within him, to rest in the Lord’s goodness.
@Marygladis Chidozie and being rooted in the Bible makes you Protestant.
You are indeed a blessing for protestants!!!
My struggle is in thinking that my particular “flavor” of Protestantism is the correct one. I don’t want to be unnecessarily rigid, but I also don’t want to be so minimalistic that I am wish washy. I’m in my third semester of seminary so I’m probably in a “crisis of belief” stage where I’m trying to nail down the non-negotiables and have well-thought-out opinions about peripherals. Kinda makes my head hurt, but it’s all so worth it.
God gives so much grace as to how and where we serve him. It makes my head spin to try and figure out which doctrines are most correct. I think it largely depends on our comfort zone and what is available to us. Those born into Orthodoxy are only going to know that. Those born into a branch of protestantism are only going to know that. Having Jesus as savior and Lord, repenting of our sins and seeking to be renewed into living a life for God are what we are called to do as Christians.
Everyone thinks their particular religious sect has the “correct” flavor. It’s maddening trying to figure out the truth.
I wonder how the earliest Christians mounted these hurdles. Have you studied the apostolic fathers yet in seminary to see?
Thank you Pastor Gavin for refuting the lie of “being deep in history is to cease being Protestant.” Thank you, for being a living example, that this statement is simply not true.
How do you know it's not true?
@@crobeastness Because it has been proven not to be true!
@@raphaelfeneje486 proven how? If that were true, there wouldn't be new conversions of Catholics every day, like myself 3 years ago.
@@crobeastness You're using a false equivocation here. It's the same as saying since Islam is fastest growing religion, it means Islam is true! That's the most illogical statement I've heard and you just stated it like a Muslim.
People are converting to Jehovah witness, Mormonism, etc everyday. Doesn't automatically makes their ideology true! Everyone isn't forced to believe, however, their belief is independent on the reliability of that ideology, same goes for the ideology. You can convert to Catholicism, but it doesn't change the fact that the early church history never taught what is being taught in your church. You can be emotional about it, or decide to make research for yourself. That's up to you!
@@raphaelfeneje486 your analysis of what I said is incorrect. You initially said that Catholicism has been "proven" to be incorrect. I replied by saying that if that were true there wouldn't be new converts every day. Catholicism could be false, but it is not "proven" to be so. Imagine if there were new flat earth converts every day. The reason that's a very niche belief is because that has ACTUALLY been proven to be false.
Mormonism and Jahovas witness has also not been proven to be false. There is substantial evidence against those religions but again, we are using the word "proven" here.
Explain to me how the early Church, the Catholic Church, the east Orthodox churches, AND the Coptic churches all believe in the real presence of the eucharist but most protestants don't? Please explain to me how the Catholic Church has been "proven" false. The real presence is just one example of how it's not, not the only example.
Thanks Gavin. Agreed. An anecdote which I hope some find helpful as relating to some of your points:
Thirty years ago I was working as a missionary doctor in southern Pakistan. Our hospital was under the auspices of the Church of Pakistan. ( Union of Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian.) By conviction I'm a Baptist. Immediately adjacent to our hospital was a Catholic mission. We got on well and , to avoid duplication and confusion, concentrated our evangelism in different tribes. ( Unusually for Pakistan we were in an area of predominantly Hindu/ animist tribal people.) Our area was materially extremely poor.
One day Father Joe - a delightful Irish Catholic priest - brought along a young woman to see me. She had horrible lung disease ( emphysema) which was, in my view, terminal. I did what I could with our meagre facilities and prayed for her, as Joe had already done. She got no better and left. I was sure she would die.
Months later I met Joe. He told me that the woman had come back to see him in perfect health. She had spent the last of her substance paying a local 'magician' to perform some rituals for her after which her lungs got better. She now told Joe that she wanted to become a Christian.
'Hang on,' said Joe. ' I prayed for you and you didn't get better. I took you to the Christian hospital. The Christian doctor treated you and prayed for you and you didn't get better. You went to the magician and are now cured. So why do you want to become a Christian?'
Answer: 'You were kind to me '
Praise God.
Thank you for this, I’ve always feared making the claim that certain miracles that happen outside my circles aren’t true but now I’m convinced that indeed that was the Holy Spirit at work. You just showed something I’ve been battling for 3 years. Pastor, God bless you, you are truly a blessing. And the passage where Christ says that if someone is not against us but is for us, always came to mind and you just confirmed that it means what it says and it says what it means.
I'm always so excited for your posts addressing protestantism/catholicism/EO... I just read you are a continuist. I'd love to hear some of your stories and experiences that have you in that camp!
Your work is really helpful, dr. Ortlund! Greetings from Brazil!
Glad to hear that! So happy you found it useful!
God can provide salvation to those who are righteous without religion"
This is the gold standard example i use when i ask people if they need a religion to enter heaven.
For example : a woman on some far away polynesian island, with NO RELIGION, who was widowed young and raised her 3 children alone lived with the highest moral standards. When she dies, will she enter heaven ??
If a simple person like me has enough compassion to say let her in ; will the God of the universe then have less compassion than me, or more compassion than me?
People need to be holy. Abraham and Noah had no religion but they walked with God.
Catholic priest says moral atheist can go to heaven. Salvation is a function of holiness not religion
th-cam.com/video/pFpt84Ov1p4/w-d-xo.html
"Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand (Rom 14:4)."
We may be bound to Gods laws as believers, but God is not bound to them. I recall a good homily a few years ago where the Priest had posed the rhetorical question, "How does the Holy Spirit work?" He then answered the question stating, "Any way he wants to."
Catholics on the other hand have a very high rank in the army of God. They are Eucharistic instruments of reparation. They are to consume the Eucharist in a state of grace for all the people in the world with no access to the eucharist ( read atheists, etc etc) .Failure of adequate preparation/confession before to consuming the eucharist means you are eating your own condemnation. You are dragging Christ thru the latrine of satan. We are to be CLEAN vessels for christ.
How Trent Horn describes it is better than how Bishop Barron does. Imagine Salvation is crossing a mile wide river with raging rapids and it’s filled with crocodiles. The Catholic Church is a bridge across the river and we know many saints who have crossed that bridge. We don’t know if someone has ever swam across the river, but it is theoretically possible.
“Just because there’s one true church doesn’t mean She has to be restricted within one set of institutional parameters”
Or more simply
“The Church is not restricted to one institution”.
Man God used this as I have been wrestling with the RCC’s claim of exclusivity. Thanks, Dr.
All of Scripture speaks of one church, singular. They are the oldest institution in the world. Let that sink in. They have survived bad popes, tyrants, dictators, heretics, and armies set on destroying them. The Catholic church marches forward. You cannot say that about ANY of the Protestant churches, either collectively or singular. Non-catholics love to sever "institution vs church" "invisible vs visible church" "justification vs sanctification" etc...just to attempt to rebut Catholicism. The Catholic Church is the one group among all who suffers thee greatest attacks. Ever wonder why all of this is the case? I think you already know: because Jesus is the founder and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her.
Great video Gavin. I always enjoy watching your videos because it helps put language to some of the thoughts I’ve had over the years, but never have been able to articulate. I also appreciate your gentleness as you approach your concerns with our brothers and sisters who are Catholic or Orthodox. Keep the conversation going.
thank you Joe.
I need to learn to be "irenic" like Gavin.
As a Catholic, I would like to commened you on your well thought out videos and in the Charity on which you speak on other Christians. Current Catholic teaching is that there is one true Church, but many folds who are not in perfect communion. The catechism refers to Protestants as our Christian brother's and Sister's who are in imperfect communion with us. I'm sure you would agree that any Christian of a different denomination is in "imperfect" communion with eachother, but in communion nonetheless.
We have come a long way as Christians and small c catholics that the RCC has revamped its position this way. Now for more of the protestant side to understand that Catholics and Orthodox are as much a part of the church as we all are. There's been much historical arrogance and vying for one upmanship on both sides. Gavin is certainly doing his part and leading the way to change the protestant mind. Then there little sheep on the ground like myself who work on this in our daily lives as well.
Great video, mirrors my thoughts almost perfectly! The kind of petty legalism "you aren't the true church", "if you dont kiss icons, anathema!", "you're going to hell if you don't submit to the pope" is totally opposite to the spirit of Christ, who preached against legalism and petty division. Putting up barriers and causing division because of earthly desires to be in the 'true church tm' is just the kind of sectarian legalism that Jesus criticised in his contemporaries. Theres not enough appreciation that all those who strive for Christ are brothers, regardless of which earthly structures they come under.
I agree in a general sense but then what do you make of people like Jehovah witnesses or Mormons? Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere as to what constitutes Christianity and what doesn’t?
This truly highlights how ignorant you are of Scripture and the Church.
Can you provide a source for your claim that failing to kiss icons is an anathema?
On the other hand, you are probably correct about going to hell if you don’t submit to the Pope. Jesus made it very clear that He is the Good Shepherd, then he goes and makes Peter a Shepherd. Jesus makes it clear that he can forgive sins, then he gives that authority to the Apostles. Jesus makes it clear that he has authority to change rules, laws and customs, then he gives the Apostles the authority to bind and loose. Jesus is the cornerstone, but then makes Simon a “Rock”.
Jesus did preach against traditions of men that contradict the laws of God. But the Church is not a tradition of men, and does not bind believers to traditions of men, only to Truth revealed by God. You see, Jesus didn’t soften the laws of God, he made it much more strict. He was teaching us that it is not enough to do this thing or that thing, instead we must completely transform our hearts so that we conform to Him and do those things out of love instead of out of knowledge.
Additionally, the part people seem to miss is that Jesus is the Church his body is mysteriously (Sacramentally) the Church. If you reject the Church Jesus established, you are therefore rejecting Jesus.
You've answered many questions just in one video!.Thank you very much !
Struggled with this issue of exclusivity for a long time. It had an existential element to it. I questioned my salvation over it and accused myself of resisting the Spirit over it. But it came down to this: how can I, a frail, broken human judge which of these traditions who all claim to be the only true church, how can I judge between them? I wasn't at the councils, I couldn't observe over the eons of time the flow of the church. I can't look into the hearts of the various actors to see motives. How can I judge between them? I felt like a child between divorced parents. In the end, since I find it impossible to judge between them, their claims cancel each other out. RC, and EOC believers love the Virgin born, crucified, risen Christ. They are my brethren. But I embrace the whole church. The Anglican Church is my home. But it is only one of the many parts of the body of Christ. LOVED this video. Thank you Gavin.
But you still are judging the and deciding on what you believe the Church is. This is what I don’t get, many Protestants seem to think that being neutral, vague, and inclusive on what they define the Church as and what are the Doctrinal and ecclesial boundaries of the Church. Is somehow an abstaining from making a determination on the question at hand. This is not the case as your comment has shown, you have looked at everything as you said and come to the conclusion that certain christian traditions of Christianity are one of many parts of the Body of Christ. This is positive affirmation of you and Dr. Ortlund’s view. And you are making a determination on the evidence. This is not a neutral stance. Which is fine. But let’s not pretend that it is.
@@pochomano We have to be able to think and make decisions as Christians. Yes, those can be judgments. "Judge righteous judgement".
I understand completely what you are saying. I have been in same situation. I find many good things about Orthodoxy. And I can say that many Orthodox Christians are my brothers and sisters because we both worship the one true King. But I had the same internal struggle and was considering converting to Orthodoxy. My Orthodox friends want me to accept all of the nuances within the tradition or else I am excluded from the "true" church. So I had to choose Jesus without being bound by the traditions of men. Stay with Him!
@@pochomano I don't believe I was trying to be neutral. I was expressing that being faced with two monolithic institutions, both making the same claim as to being the One, True Church, they both can't be right. Please believe me when I say I agonized over the issue. It got to the painful point of immobilizing me. When I used the word "judge" I was meaning it was impossible to choose. I decided (judged) that I'll let those two monolithic institutions battle that one out. It involves knowledge that is beyond me. I'm a simple layman. But I recognize that members of those churches love Jesus Christ, whom I also love. Therefore I count them as brethren in Christ. I don't think that is being "vague." Besides, if I were to convert to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, I wouldn't have to be re-baptized. If my trinitarian baptism is accepted, what was I baptized into? We are baptized into Christ. (Gal 3:27) How wonderful! You were baptized into Christ! I was baptized into Christ! We are both in the One Christ. How could we not be brethren? Therefore I think Dr. Ortlund expressed well the Protestant view of the Church, that all believers are one in Christ, regardless of institutional affiliation. Besides, "The Lord knows those who are his." (2 Tim 2:19) After roughly 30 years of struggle over the issue, I am at joyful peace, and I'll say it again: I love the whole body of Christ. And Dr. Ortlund's videos have been a huge help to get me to this place. I pray brother, that you never have the same painful struggle I had! Blessings to you.
@@dreamsideout7831 I truly get where your coming from but you are still bounding yourself to a tradition. Whether it be by the Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic Church, one of the Protestant Traditions, or even your own understanding of scripture and Church history it is a tradition because the scriptures we have are part of a tradition and concepts like sola Scriptura are part of a tradition. God reveals things through men by the Power of the Holy Spirit, which we all believe. The question is which is the tradition that has been passed down by Christ to the Apostles and then to the Church and how did that tradition operate.
Because if it just comes down to saying I trust in Christ, and that is all. Well what do you say to Mormons and Jehovah witness believe and trust In Christ, they just have a different interpretation and tradition as to who exactly Christ is and so on.
This is my problem with Anyone who finds fault with exclusivist claims. They do not realize that they’re rejection of another exclusivity claim and being more inclusive is an exclusive claim, and it also created chaos and subjectivity on the matter.
And I find it intellectually dishonest when many Protestants act as if they agree on even primary doctrinal issues, and the fact that each tradition and individual (in evangelical churches) seems to have their own view of what is and isn’t a primary doctrine.
Ask yourself why the Historic mainline Protestant Church’s are dying and most Are either Turing to evangelical(non-denominationalism) which is just more denominations by different names, or Lone wolf Christianity( the Relationship/spirituality over religion crowd)?
While many like Dr. Ortlund has a very well balanced approach to Church History and Tradition. It is his very Tradition that has paved the way for these sorts of christian sects that fully detach from the early church under the doctrine of sola scriptura.
And while Gavin and many historically minded Protestants hold to the more traditional view of Sola scriptura the fact remains that not all Protestants hold to the historical view of Protestantism on that doctrine. And the doctrine itself has nothing built into it that restricts evangelical and more individually minded sects and individuals from rejecting all tradition. Even at their own detriment, which is what most identifying Christians in the US does as evangelical Christianity and lone wolf Christianity is the pre-dominant view of Christianity in the US.
The critique I’m making is Dr. Ortlunds view and argument that leaving Protestantism is somehow a safe bet.
The problem with this view is it presupposes a certain tradition as to soteriology as well as ecclesiology.
This is my issue with it. While Dr. Ortlund himself is an intelligent and kind man that has a lot of knowledge. The basis For the world view of Protestantism is founded upon Sola Scriptura which is the pre-cursor for individual interpretation of scripture, evangelicalism, and lone wolf Christianity which is definitely detached and removed from the majority of Christianity.
Amen brother I’m very glad to have found your channel. In perfect timing also. You’re standing boldly for TRUTH.
Welcome aboard!
I want to like this 10 times! Saving, taking notes, sharing. Thank you.
You were a big help in my figuring out wich church (institution) is the "true church".
My faith was renewed recently after being "smacked by the holy spirit".
I had a longing for returning to church after those smackdowns but I was lost between all those "we, insert some institution here, are the one true church" statements.
"Which to choose !?"
"Why is God only in one of them !?"
I realised, with your help and by reading the bible, that the church as nothing to do with institutions.
Like you said, it's much bigger then what we can understand.
I ended up choosing by the fruits and that had everyting to do with the people in the church, not with the name written on the panel outside the building.
Thank you !
so glad to hear I could be of help! God bless you.
I agree with you generally, I don't know if I'd say the Church has "nothing to do with institutions"...
The Reformers were at pains to stress the 'true marks' of the Visible Church, which primarily revolved around 1) purity of teaching (succession of doctrine), and 2) continuity of sacraments and ministry (succession of office). If we emphasize either but especially the latter, than the Church as instituted body existing in and through time actually becomes very important: the sacraments ground faith and spirituality to concrete event and sacred space (this is most stressed in Lutheranism/Anglicanism where sacraments are actually seen as means of salvation).
Now, that isn't to say that that means they thought one particular body was necessarily bound up with the identity of 'The True Church', (such as Rome or the East), but the true Church -- wherever she is -- will necessarily be and participate in certain visible signs and teaching: the creeds, the scriptures, sacraments, ministry, etc.
@@sebastienberger1112 Glad to hear!
I needed to hear this! Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Appreciate your hard work Gavin! 😊
Great video man, you and Mike winger have become my favorite guys to watch.
Glad you enjoyed!
Great video brother.
Amazing as always Dr. Gavin!
This was excellent. Thank you for saying this.
Thank you for this video. I've had partially formed peices of this argument floatimg around in my thoughts lately, as a protestant who loves liturgy and loves all the richness of church history, but yet still sees real issues with the Catholic claims. I believe that you've hit on an essential truth here.
Liturgical protestant? What denomination?
@@Mygoalwogel I go to an Anglican church. Grew up Congregational. All of us - low church protestant, high church protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Assyrian - all of us are brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thank you very much. I've been laboring over these very questions lately under much consternation, and this was a godsend. God bless.
Wow, Dr. Ortlund, I've never seen you being so passionate in a Protestant-Catholic-Orthodox debate before! It's refreshing to see a more pointed video like this in this channel once in a while, not a lot of nuance, a strong point is made, but still historically grounded and (in a limited sense) still maintains irenicity.
Hopefully this video does not blow up bigger than your more irenic videos, I don't want you to devolve into one of those divisive discernment ministries due to audience demands. Hope you can maintain your irenic vision.
Love and support from Indonesia. God bless you and your ministries.
I noticed the same thing and not in a good way. I was a big admirer of Gavin .
Thank you Gavin, this teaching is having a profound impact on my understanding on how to view these different church institutions and God working throughout His church. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
That’s what I wish Protestants would bring up in these debates. That the Spirit is clearly at work amongst Protestant churches. And they are things that happen that funny enough happened in the early church in the book of acts
I agree 100% Dr. Ortlund! Thank you for making this video!
Glad it was helpful!
really enjoyed this video. thank you.
Gavin, I believe your channel is well named. That is what I think. Thank you for the work you do.
It is a very important topic, thank you for making a video on it!
I knew a man from Romania who had been working in the US for a while. I was an E.O. at the time. He had a spiritual father who was a monk in Romainia and with whom he was in frequent contact. This man told me a story about a Romanian Orthodox, living in Romania; he was a drunkard and cared nothing for God. One day this man went to a Baptist Church and was saved; he stopped drinking, read the Bible with joy, and glorified God. The monk told my friend that the convert to the Baptist church was damned and that he should have remained a drunkard in the Orthodox Church. American Orthodox have the watered-down version of the faith and would be scandalized to know what the real deal is.
Here's my view, I came from a Greek Orthodox Church, got saved outside it, and attended a Non Denominational Church (AGC) for 22 years. I have come to grow and understand that people who attended the Catholic or Orthodox can be saved ( though may be more difficult )even though I don't agree with all their doctrine.
Why would it be more difficult for them to be saved?
Why would it be more difficult? Expound
Gavin - thank you for this. In a day and age of countless doctrines and explanations and opinions and information coming from all directions, your voice cut through in a moment I needed it. God bless
glad to hear that! God bless.
Thank you, brother. Very helpful
Thank you so much for articulating this!
Very helpful, Gavin. I like your focus on fruit. This is something I have come to appreciate more the past few years. In Evangelicalism, a "fruitful" ministry is often thought of as one that produces a lot of converts. But with perhaps no exception, fruit in the Bible has to do with godly character. I had wondered what the people thought John the Baptist meant by telling them to produce fruit. Then I realized that they most likely understood it in the context of Isaiah 5 (the fruit of righteousness and justice, which elsewhere we learn are the foundation of God's throne). But I do have questions about groups that appear to have fruit and yet are founded on heretical teachings. I would love to hear you expound more on that.
Great thoughts Billy! Hope we can talk more.
Your comment about what defines fruitful ministry are interesting to me. I always assumed it was evidence of love joy peace etc.
I also think that we are called to preach Gospel, but I don't feel I should be judged by success, but rather by obedience (I hope so anyway).
And I agree with your question and people having fruits, but my observation is non Christians who appear loving, kind, gentle, joyful etc. Sometimes apparently more so than my Christian friends!
@@ProfYaffle there are always exceptions to a generalization but your perception of a generalization is a very limited sample.
I’m sure you’re right in saying that a lot of people won’t like what you said but I’m not one of them. I couldn’t agree more with what you said. I admit that I have seriously considered becoming Orthodox or Catholic at different times. There is much that I admire about both and I definitely consider them part of the family of Christ. But when it comes right down to it, I see God moving among His people from many denominations. I myself am a non-denominational Pentecostal. When I see how God works through my pastor and others and how lives are being transformed in my own church, and even after seeking God for direction, I just can’t see myself leaving to join one of the “True” churches. I’m so glad that you said you believe in a physical church but that it’s not restricted to one particular institution. That’s how I see it as well. As Protestants we are often accused of believing in the “invisible” church. I think the early church was right in clearly defining true Christian doctrine when heresies arose but somewhere along the way it seems to have turned into straining out gnats while swallowing camels! I’ve said enough. Just wanted express appreciation for you sharing this.
I'd be the same stripe of non-denominational. Can't say I've ever considered becoming Orthodox, it seems like a very cold traditional and the most egotistically bound to claim exclusivity. I know RCC claims to be the true and original church as well, but they've opened up far more to considering us as brethren, just not "w/ the full truth", like they claim to have. I did briefly consider becoming Catholic, was willing to wipe the slate clean on what I thought I knew and just learn. Unfortunately, the more I did learn over months of listening to them and reading directly, some doctrines are worse than I ever thought. No one fully understands the bible and doctrines, mistakes are rife, and yet the bible itself makes allowance for our fallibility in key scriptures.
Yeah, that discussion/debate you did w/ "According to John" was what shook the magic appeal of EO from me.
Glad it was helpful!
Obviously your message in this video, Gavin, was directed by the Holy Spirit working through you because so many people I'm seeing in the comments, myself included, are in total agreement with you.😃 Thank you for taking the time to post this beneficial message to the world and I pray that the Spirit will direct many to "view and chew" on the facts you point to in the word of God. Have a blessed week.
Thank you Patrick.
Very helpful, thank you. I really look forward to your book on the church
This basic concept has been something that has been huge in my spiritual journey. It was the very issue I once took in debating some Apostolics who were saying that anybody who doesn't speak in tongues doesn't have the Holy Spirit. I argued that turning from sin is a greater sign than speaking what could be gibberish acting like divine speech. Yet even in my debate with them, I recognized a genuine love for God and belief in Jesus.
From growing up in a house that taught Catholicism was demonic, to having a Catholic aunt with whom I feel the same Spirit of God as those Apostolics, -I have come to believe that dogmatism doesn't teach good doctrine. God works across the board, -in Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Messianic, African Christianity, Asian Christianity, Aramaic Christianity, and every other sect. The Kingdom of God is one of every tribe, nation, people, and tongue; should it be dominated by European tradition?
That's why I've always been non-denominational. That seems to take a lot of hits these days, but I've always seen the church body as scattered through out the denominations. I almost never see pastors or priests teach on the scriptures about the body of Christ, and not to say that an ear is less comely or needful, unless it's to teach that's just a congregation. They definitely don't ever talk about the scriptures that talk about differences of observing a Holy day, or not observing a day, eating meat offered to idols, etc as done sincerely unto the Lord. I sadly never see teaching on that. It's ignored while the constant infighting goes on, but I always really, really took them to heart. God had to deal w/ me eventually that that applied to Catholics as well.
"...it is not as Romanists, Greeks, Armenians, Abassines, Jacobines, Lutherans, Calvinists, Arminians, &c., that men are saved, but as Catholic Christians, aspiring to the highest perfection. - Richard Baxter,Christian Unity, p.80 (Lexham Press)
I appreciate your perspective very much.
New Sub and have really enjoyed your take on church history
Great video Dr. Ortlund. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
Edifying video!
Blessings!
This was very helpful, brother. God bless all your effort for His Kingdom. Keep it coming. Hugs in Christ. (Presby here)
Excellent video in my humble opinion. It was helpful for me because as a Lutheran, i have been recently considering Marian dogmas and almost felt that i would become Roman Catholic. Thank you so much for your videos. I have been binging on them and this video here was very helpful for me. I also want to be a renewing force as a Protestant for the one true visible church as you suggest. God bless you brother.
best video yet, not saying you dont do good videos love ya brother
SO GOOD BRO! Thank you.
I appreciate your spirit of gentleness and humility.
Also, maybe you can get some Pentecostal friends on the channel! Love what you said about some of the most godly men being Pentecostal!
Liked the approach on this one!
"Any reasonable, generous hearted person, who travels, reads, or gets to know people, will just recognise that Christ is at work outside of just one institution in such a way that manifestly evidences His Church in word and sacrement." -Gavin Ortlund
I just dont agree with this completely. there are so many wolves in sheep's clothing in the evangelical church that its hard to believe God is doing anything there at all. I think God is mostly absent on a Sunday at an evie church
@@maxonmendel5757 I think that could be true, but I also don’t think that refutes the statement if it is.
@@maxonmendel5757 good job. You've just blasphemed the Holy Spirit
@@maxonmendel5757evangelicals would say the same thing about catholics. If there’s one blanket statement I can make about Christians, it’s that most of us are incredibly close minded.
@@countryboyred sure. maybe I was close minded a year ago. let me restate it a little....
since many evangelical churches don't have the covering of the magisterium to protect their doctrine (such as the nicene creed), many evangelical teachers and very many innocent evangelical believers are liable to fall into heresy or personality cults.
compare Montanism with NAR or Stone-Cambellite churches.
because so many reject the doctrine of apostolic succession, they find themselves re-inventing something the Catholic church has already mastered, which global presence and global unity.
and sorry for offending anybody. no need to accuse me of the unforgivable sin and condemn me to hell without any chance of retribution.
"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Know ye therefore that those who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (Galatians 3:6-7). Seems like we are united to the one true churh by faith, not by belonging to one institution. God Bless you Gavin😉
Thank you so much for this video.
Agree 100 percent.Am from south India,seen demons cast out infact my great grandmother wasn’t able to walk at age of 70 and Lord sent a healer,when he prayed she started to walk and he is not a Roman Catholic.He is a Pentecostal Christian.And when Jesus told that ye shall do greater works than me,in the new year night it was raining very heavily here but I prayed and rebuked the storm and rain in the name of Jesus so that I would be able to go to church to begin my year with LORD and yes the Lord heard my prayer and stopped it.There are much God is doing through His spirit here in India.Praise the Lord!
Love and appreciate your work, Dr. Ortlund. I’ve been gnawing on the idea of Protestantism being a “conservative renewal effort” within Christianity and I’m not sure which Protestants are actually holding the original Way. I’ve been leaning toward the Catholic faith for a while but haven’t fully crossed the Tiber. Thank you again for what you do and please pray for me!
Thanks for the kind words. Just prayed for you.
Yes I like how you said gnaw, because we are told to gnaw on the body of Christ which you can receive in the Catholic Church every day.
@@MelaniesManicures Not exclusively a Romanist teaching. And the only witness to the idea that Protestants lack valid sacraments are Romanists themselves.
Many Protestant groups believe in the real presence and there's no objective reason why it's only legitimate in a Roman context.
@Zane Courtney--I was at the point where you are about 10 years ago, so I understand the appeal of Rome. A couple of decades earlier I did a serious investigation of Orthodoxy, and before that, LDS (Mormonism). All three were because I had friends who were converts and I could not answer them. I'm one of those people who HAS TO KNOW!
I do not fully agree with Luther and I despise Calvinism, but I have looked into Orthodoxy for many years now, I have 5,401 books and many of those in Patristic studies. Luthers renewal of the early church was simply bringing the church back into its more Jewish roots (not Judaism). With the Orthodox it developed over 800 years. Two 7th ecumenical councils took place, yes things happened, but when icons triumphed many who were anti-icon ended up being impaled on stakes. The Christians actually fled to the Muslims to receive better treatment at the time, the saying was also coined ' the worst devils dressed in the garb of a monk'. I personally believe what was deemed the fake council was the true council because it was better represented (you really need to study this from both sides of the fence)......also I had many questions about the fall of the church of Ephesus. This primarily took place after the council set up by Cyril and the excommunication of Nestorius in 431AD. Also Basil and Athanasius when talking about icons and the prayers of the saints are proven forgeries from a later date. If it was agreed on by the church i see no need for ancient documents to be forged. The Doctrine of Addai gives good examples of interpolation of text for the issue of 'relics' as it takes on the story of Constantine and Helena suddenly and then goes back into the true writings, however these BLATANT forgeries were known at the time as forgeries. I could not reconcile how the Orthodox keep proclaiming them as truths. If they were true the Apostle Addai would have contradicted everything he wrote about concerning paintings and relics receiving veneration. I can not go with a group that boldly proclaims forgeries to be true. It it was true, their would be no need to lie and forge older documents. Also a book was in circulation called the 'Acts of John' it was used to go against icons in what was later deemed as the 'fake council', however this book for many was widely received, at a later date a whole portion was added that turned the book 'gnostic' these were also blatant forgeries, however it is very easy to detect the change in writing styles. The verse where John rebukes the person for painting him and making a prayer corner with his painting is NOT part of the later forgery, in fact much of these works was how the early church determined how each apostle of Christ had died.
Great, informative video!
As Peter Leithart says, "I'm too catholic to be Catholic."
So good!!! Thank you Gavin 🙏
Just yesterday a nominal catholic aquaintance told me that we protestants are "blaspheming" by saying "God" so often... 😳... I just listened in horror trying to understand his position, thinking of how the Pharasees acused Jesus of blasphemy, because their hearts were hardened.
Proof Eucharist is body of Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary is his mother.
48I am the bread of life.
49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z
50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a
52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?”
53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b
58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
Eucharistic miracle..
th-cam.com/video/soCkftBBsBo/w-d-xo.html (medical reports-living heart tissue, blood type AB)
th-cam.com/video/oogJ-cdi7yI/w-d-xo.html (Rome Reports)
th-cam.com/video/whbzLYi7cyc/w-d-xo.html (Lanciano)
th-cam.com/video/6PJ8BORx1p8/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/bd16tBRbLXw/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/PvxTDAVypxs/w-d-xo.html (levitating eucharist)
Incorruptible bodies of saints due to the Eucharist - only happens in the Catholic church. No other religion has this miracle
th-cam.com/video/GSCk0qs-2-M/w-d-xo.html (Padre Pio)
th-cam.com/video/40UZLnIdplo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jN4SvtRje2I/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/-TrR1CEWdbc/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/XCDBekAQ-FI/w-d-xo.html (Carlo Acutis)
th-cam.com/video/33vlkJh2iJc/w-d-xo.html
Apparition of Virgin Mary
th-cam.com/video/GQnKS7YUE7Q/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Ivory Coast)
th-cam.com/video/0PPGuMmn6TQ/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary statue moving)
th-cam.com/video/tVU8bhbQInw/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Egypt)
th-cam.com/video/nMEWxRB-1dc/w-d-xo.html 1968 Egypt
th-cam.com/video/8YR6INkTK7Q/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun)
th-cam.com/video/yF0_ysUivxE/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun)
th-cam.com/video/76qAMB3qUpA/w-d-xo.html Medjugorje Sun miracle on Easter Sunday
th-cam.com/video/RyYNIulxIbc/w-d-xo.html Virgin Mary appears in Egypt & Spain-Eye Witnesses
@@Raverraver9999 Copy pasting such robotic replies isn't helpful to most people.
That particular Catholic sounds a bit loopy. I doubt that would be a normal Catholic claim. I'm pretty stunned on their emphasis on works, to the point where Jesus' atonement isn't enough, and most will have to do hard and painful time in purgatory.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Hello. That doesn’t sound like Catholic teaching. What is your understanding of the Catholic model of salvation? What do Catholics see as “works”?
@@PatrickSteil Hi Patrick. I've been watching Catholic channels and interacting in comments and it seems solid to me that infant baptism only removes origin sin, but then you need grace doled out through the church byway of sacraments. Even so, if you commit sin before your next confession, then that sin is on you if you die and you have to burn it off in purgatory. I see Catholics argue against the scripture (which is one of the bulwarks of the reformation): 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Of course we understand that a regenerated life will show good works as well, but not that those works earn us grace or salvation.
This is so helpful Gavin. As a humble Protestant with friends, yes brothers and sisters who are Roman Catholic & Orthodox, I affirm the works of Jesus for the glory of God in all the branches. May we bear more fruit in these days!
Really? I was a Protestant for 23 years and the only "Works of God" that I saw was equivalent to a magic show. I came back to the RCC and now I couldn't be happier. Finally, actual Christianity.
@@rangers94ism Equivalent to magic show?? what church you went all those 23 years??
@@danieljoshua4352 Baptist, A and G, Non Denominational, Vineyard, Pentecostal, and Episcopalian. Is there some other fake version of Christianity that I missed?
@@rangers94ism Yes, you did. You missed adding your Marian church. When they say, "hocus pocus maeem" bread turns into human. They say that they are virgins but become dads and grand dads. They say that you can receive god's grace when you follow their Twitter handle. They say they are pro life but forcefully abort their nuns. They say that Jesus is their saviour but put all of their hope in Mary. Being in that church is experiencing the 8th wonder in life. Roller coaster experience. Where will you find the better magic show than the church that performs all these magics? I know you would definitely enjoy such a church. I'm glad you found your herd. Enjoy yourself for the rest of your life witnessing the magic your Marian children perform.
@@rangers94ismother denominations have documented miracles. It’s not a RCC exclusive thing.
What a great video, glory to Jesus.
I came back to this video just to check if I hadn't like it yet. This is perhaps your best video yet out of an excellent bunch, Pastor Ortlund! God knows for sure, of course, just as he knows who are His. ;)
Thanks Jack, I appreciate it!
Amen Gavin! I was raised in a small sect downstream of Protestantism, totally exclusive. Praise God for dealing with my prejudices, though it’s been painful. Keep up the great work you’re doing.
Same here, brother. May God bless you in your journey!
He has no authority.
Great video. I've been an inquirer to orthodoxy for a while but haven't taken the jump yet. I've asked this question and I pretty much agree with you Dr. Ortlund. I saw and experienced the grace of God in my protestant churches no doubt about it. I think orthodox would say that those fathers and saints who said that everyone not orthodox is necessarily damned were simply wrong. The fathers can be wrong of course. Almost all of the orthodox I've talked to say they think Christ can save those outside of the church, though its safest to be on the ark and we can never who is saved ultimately in the end.
I think the challenge is that the historic Orthodox view is that everyone outside of Orthodoxy is damned, so changing on this point really takes some of the wind out of the sails of the Orthodox appeal to history and tradition.
Can you give citations for Which early church fathers were inclusive rather than exclusive to there approach to people outside of the Church ? I don’t need the quotes themselves just the citations. Because you said in the video you found some Church fathers expressing in early Christian history expressing more openness to those outside of a more exclusive view of the Church.
@Bb Dl That is not an accurate representation of Calvin. I gave several examples of the historic Orthodox view when debating Father Patrick. If you believe there are premodern Eastern Orthodox theologians who affirmed salvation outside the Orthodox Church, by all means list them.
@@TruthUnites I have tried to show you. You are correct that much of the rhetoric after the schism takes a hard line. those are individuals. the ecumenical councils are to be taken first. the ecumenical councils and their questions on rebaptizing should hold sway. please read Fr. John Morris in his criticism of Orthodox Fundamentalism. The worst part of this video is your statement that belief in the Orthodox Church as the Church is a product of being unread and untraveled. WOW!
@@TruthUnites what do you mean by Eastern Orthodox theologians. I’m assuming you mean Church Fathers(Saints specifically in both the RC and EO Church?
I found this florilegium from someone on the EO side showing that the they’re were saints pre-modern era that while they are not inclusivist in the sense you laid out. They did seem to think that someone truly seeking after Christ within the revelation they have could possibly be saved but that it was by Gods grace and mercy. But the normative means amongst majority of the early Church seem to be that Salvation was In the Church the Body of Christ.
ancientinsights.wordpress.com/2022/05/01/no-salvation-outside-the-church-a-florilegium/
My question for you would be isn’t this also an answer one who is more of inclusive, would give to an atheist with the question about those who have never heard who Christ was or the gospel message never reached them before they died?
Thankful for this video!! Really helpful and well spoken ❤. I can’t accept that Jesus would say to so many millions of precious followers around the world who have been radically transformed and obey His teaching as clearly, simply laid out in scripture that more is required of them. That they are not “fully” living out their faith.. that they are missing something. The gospel is simple. A narrow road but it’s not as complicated as human tradition often makes it. I think of believers in third world countries, worshiping in the bush, of the underground church in China or Iran. Of precious friends saved by grace out of a life of drug use and worshipping in a simple church setting near skid row. Does Christ really require more of these ones? Does he place a burden on them, or tell them they are “missing out” on something beyond what is plainly taught in scripture? (The teaching that they are not worshiping in “fullness” would be SO confusing, hurtful and faith shaking to many many believers I know. It would not draw them to the tiber it would shake their belief altogether.) Does Jesus say their faith, their communion with His body the church is not “full” enough? This is not my only major concern with RC teaching but it’s a big one.
Many believers find great fulfillment and beauty in RC mass and are discipled more closely to Christ in this iteration of faith. I praise God for this and am so deeply sorry for the fact that so many of my fellow evangelicals are so harsh in their judgement/dismissal of the Roman church. I just also praise God for the many millions more who are best discipled in their faith in Jesus through other expressions of the church gathered. I see it like fishnets. We are called to be fishers of men, to go into all the world and make disciples and God has ordained many many shapes and sizes of “nets” to bring in and disciple people to faith in Him. I think like Dr Ortlund that He is so much bigger than the boxes we place Him in. Humans will always be prone to both reduce His work/what He will do while simultaneously over complicating things. (Case in point: Judaism at the time of Jesus) This is true in both the RC and Protestantism.
(All Protestant traditions I know of do have standards, creeds and basic orthodox truths that must be agreed upon to clarify which churches/fish nets 😉are teaching truth and which are not. These exist and are clear and consistent across denominational lines in all but the most liberal of churches… which would then not qualify as upholding orthodox truth.. They extend down from the very earliest days of church history.)
Excelente, muchas gracias. Saludos desde Ecuador 🇪🇨. 🤗🤗
As always, well done and well said. This certainly doesn’t speak against the need to search out correct doctrine, but, it speaks such truth and charity for those who exist within the bounds of orthodoxy, which when looking at the writings of the church fathers, are clearly very broad.
Excellent presentation. Thank you. An example of some of the incoherence of the exclusivist “one true church” paradigm: I’ve always thought it was odd that the Orthodox and Catholic churches are not in Eucharist fellowship (at least officially in most instances) yet they both believe they are receiving the one body of Christ in communion. They receive the same Christ, but are separated from one another. That doesn’t make sense to me.
Excellent message. Mark 9:38 always comes into my mind when I'm tempted to judge a particular denomination or preacher.
Thanks a lot Dr Ortlund.
Dr Gavin,
Thanks for this analysis. I have a lot to say as a response, so I will be making a video instead of typing it up. Look for this response within the next week.
Btw, I was raised by Pentecostal Pastors. I am glad to see, as a Baptist, you have high regards for them.
thank you Gavin - how charitable, wise and sensible Bless you
Hey Gavin thanks for this video! Love your work and I appreciate all your work in these ecumenical discussions.
I wanted to address the claim you made about not finding "anybody from the 9th century to the 19th" who affirms that there is salvation for Western Christians. It seems to me that, if baptism is salvation/confers salvation, then this question _can_ be reduced to a question of whether baptisms are valid outside the church. And on this question history is replete with Orthodox writers and councils affirming that Latins are not to be rebaptized on admittance to the Eastern churches, thereby signaling that baptisms outside the church are at least valid in part and counting Western Christians as therefore imperfect members of the church. This seems to be the position of the church and councils prior to the schism, though there are plenty of hardliners such as Cyprian who would have mandated rebaptism for all, and was the official position of the church throughout history despite many ecclesial writers holding to the mandatory rebaptism position. I'll provide a few quotes below:
None other than Mark of Ephesus after a lengthy passage calling the Latins heretics:
"'Have you not heard that they adopted not only customs but also dogmas which are strange to Orthodoxy (and that which is strange to Orthodoxy is most certainly a heretical teaching) and that according to the canons they must be catechized and united to Orthodoxy? If it is necessary to catechize then it is clear that they must be chrismated… Latins must not be re-baptized but only after their renunciation of their heresies and confession of sins, be anointed with Chrism and admit them to the Holy Mysteries and in this way bring them into communion with the holy, catholic Eastern Church, in accordance with the sacred canons.”
Council of Constantinople, 1484:
The Decision of the Great Synod of Constantinople in 1484. This Synod was summoned at the sacred Church of Pammakaristos by Patriarch Symeon (1472-75, 1482-1485) in 1482 and again in 1484. Ιn the first instance it issued an Horos denouncing the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438) and its doctrine of the Filioque, and in the second, it published an Acolouthy for the reception of Latin converts into the Orthodox Church. This Synod called itself Ecumenical presumably because all four Eastern Patriarchs were present. It denounced the Council of Florence and decided that [Text of the Council begins]: “the Latin converts to Orthodoxy should be received into the Church only by Chrismation and by signing an appropriate Libellus of faith which would include denunciation of Latin errors… The Service for the Reception of Latins into the Orthodox Church Published by the same holy and great Synod, for those who return from the Latin heresies to the orthodox and catholic Church of Constantinople, but also to the three most holy patriarchs of the East, i.e. those of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. This Acolouthy was published in Constantinople in the year 1484 during the patriarchy of the most holy Patriarch Lord Symeon. Let it be known, also, that this Synod, being ecumenical, is the first one with God’s help, tο bring down and overturn that most unlawful Synod that was summoned in Florence, as one that proceeded in an evil and unconstitutional manner; and as having failed tο follow the holy and ecumenical Synods which preceded it; therefore, we included the Statement (Horos) of this Orthodox and holy Synod of ours, i.e. that one of Constantinople, in the present sacred codex of Christ’s holy and great Church, since it was summoned during our days.”
Council of Moscow, 1667:
“At the time of Patriarch Nikon, upon the insistence of Patriarch Marcarius of Antioch, who was then in Moscow, it was twice decreed at the Council that Latins would not be re-baptized in the future, the deeply rooted custom of re-baptizing remained in practice. This is why Tsar Aleksei Mikhailovich proposed that the Great Council should discuss and make a decision on this question. The Council fathers carefully reviewed Patriarch Philaret Nikitich’s statute and came to the conclusion that the laws were incorrectly interpreted and applied to the Latins. They then referred to earlier Council statutes whereby it was forbidden to re-baptize even Arians and Macedonians in the event of their coming into Orthodoxy, and even more so, the fathers said, Latins must not be re-baptized. They referred to the Council of the four Eastern Patriarchs held in Constantinople in 1484, which decreed not to re-baptize Latins upon their coming into Orthodoxy, but only to anoint them with Chrism, and which even composed the actual rite for their reception into the Church. They referred to the wise Mark of Ephesus who, in his epistle addressed to all Orthodox, offers the same teaching. [These decisions were ratified by another Synod in +1718 and applied to Protestants.]”
Patriarch Marcarius III of Antioch:
“To Patriarch Nikon that “the Latins must not be re-baptized: they have the seven sacraments and all seven Councils, and they are all baptized correctly in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit with an invocation of the Holy Trinity. We must recognize their baptism. They are only schismatics, and schism does not make a man unfaithful and unbaptized. It only separates him from the Church. Mark of Ephesus himself, who opposed the Latins, never demanded their re-baptism and accepted their baptism as a correct one.”
St Philaret of Moscow:
“Mark you, I do not presume to call false any Church which believes that Jesus is the Christ. The Christian Church can only be either purely true, confessing the true and saving divine teaching without the false admixtures and pernicious opinions of men, or not purely true, mixing with the true and saving teaching of faith in Christ the false and pernicious opinions of men… but I just simply look upon them; in part I see how the Head and Lord of the Church heals the many deep wounds of the old serpent in all the parts and limbs of his Body, applying now gentle, now strong, remedies, even fire and iron, in order to soften hardness, to draw out poison, to clean wounds, to separate out malignant growths, to restore spirit and life in the numbed and half-dead members. In this way I attest my faith that, in the end, the power of God will triumph openly over human weakness, good over evil, unity over division, life over death.”
Curious to hear what your thoughts of on this are. Thanks!
I'm not Catholic. I'm also not a "protestant". I'm not protesting anything. I am simply a Christian, a member of the holy catholic church, the body of all believers. I agree with you that there are "many institutional expressions" of the church. I like how you put that.
thanks for commenting; just curious, do you attend a local church, and if so, what kind is it?
This is a significant reason why I am now Protestant. I believe that Protestant ecclesiology is necessary in order to be catholic. I suspect that it is the catholicity of Protestantism, where a Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc can see in each other no less than themselves, a member of Christ's Body, is the reason why it is easy to lump them all together and say pointing, "Look, division!" The fact that Protestantism is so multiform and yet, we are able to see in each other a member of Christ's Church, is the uniquely Protestant emblem of catholicity which does not rest in uniformity, but can hope for convergence upon the truth hand-in-hand as brothers and sisters.
Well said. I live, work, and interact with Christian’s from multiple traditions and we treat each other like we are all in the church together. Only the Protestant tradition can have such unity among diversity. Many Protestants happily accept Roman Catholics and Orthodox as well. Kinda makes one think that division may not be coming from the Protestant side so much.
I don t think Babptists think of every other protestants as saved and Christians. Go watch Mc Arthur and you ll change you mind. Catholic don t see protestantd as not Christians, but the opposite happens most often. They are the most hated, criticized and lied on.
@@Joliebebe2001 Do baptists think of any non-baptists as true Christians, in the Church of Jesus Christ? Yes. Even John Macarthur.
Do Catholics think of any non-Catholics as in the Church of Jesus? No. Because only the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus. Non-Catholic churches are not even considered truly part of the Catholic Church. Some Protestants may be considered as true Christians, but still outside the "Church"
For Baptists and other Protestants, there are atleast some outside their group who are part of the universal Church of Jesus.
Do you disagree with this assessment?
@@troysmalley7886 not true, Catholics cqll other Our Brothers and Sisters in Christ, the Church recognize that the Holy Spirit is working through them and they are part of the Body of Christ and also benefit from Salvation. You can search in the official teachings of the Church. The Church says they have fallen away from the True Church because they don t have access to all the Sacraments given by Christ to help with sanctification , they don t have the FULL TRUTH Of The GOSPEL and simetimes even hold false teachings, but the Catholics never reject their appartenance to Christ. Thx.
@@Joliebebe2001 exactly, they are considered outside of 'The Church of Jesus Christ.'
Protestants can consider others as part of the Church, because what defines the Church for us is that we are united in the same Christ, by one Holy Spirit, by which we each call God our One Father and have been adopted into the one family of God. The Church just is the family of God, and Catholic theology divides the Body of Christ on Earth because it says that some members are IN the Church (Catholics), and maybe some members are OUT the Church (Protestants, Orthodox etc).
Howdy Dr. Ortlund,
I really appreciate your honesty and kindness in all your videos. I recently converted to Catholicism, and you were one of the only Protestants I felt I could trust to give a truthful, interactive criticism of Catholicism, mainly because you were open to civil dialogue with Catholics. I'm not super super educated on the history of the Faith, most of my reasonings for converting came from arguments from Scripture, but I would say that because the Catholic Church has this intrinsic hierarchy, we must pay attention to what that is saying in regards to final doctrinal statements, not what various saints say. I know you know all of this, but I just think we can get caught up in what saints say, and go "Ope, contradicts what the Church in the future said!" and it's just not so. Also, couldn't someone use your arguement and apply it to all religions and just say, "Well, there are some Buddhists or Hindus or Muslims who have the implicit desire for Christ and they've got some stuff right and they do really good works (or however you'd like to say it), and they're probably saved, so you really don't even need to be a Christian"? It seems like the problem at hand isn't that some people can be saved or members of the Church without being visibly, explicitly a part of it; the problem, for me, was 'What is the fullness of the Faith?' and I think I'd tell you it's Catholicism, just like I'd tell the Buddhist or Hindu. In regards to your statements about the Eucharist, I think that their could be some graces attached to what Prostestants do during communion, though I'm not sure what the Church officially teaches about that. It seems reasonable to say that anytime someone is making some sort of memorial to Christ's crucifixion, they could be making a sort of spiritual communion, even if it's not the full, valid, sacramental Eucharist under a Catholic priest. But that's just my personal opinion. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but I will say I watched this video a week before making a comment. Thank you very much for all that you do. If anybody wants to chime in here, I'd love that. Pray for me, as I pray for you!
I would watch several times all of Gavin's videos on all the topics concerning Catholicism to be fully persuaded one way or another
Let me know how you thing about this video: th-cam.com/video/jdlczbO5Csc/w-d-xo.html
That is interesting that your converting came from arguments from scripture. That is usually more why Christians leave the Catholic faith. The usual reasons why Christians go to has always been looking into church fathers, history and believing that the traditions are true. The scriptural basis for Catholicism is usually the weakest link. It would be great if you would explain that more.
Very good exposition. A few things, thanks for mentioning Richard Wurmbrand, as a Lutheran myself, I point to him as a modern inspiration. His experienced showed that when the world persecutes Christians, they won't care what tribe or section of Christianity you come frome, therefore be aware how you judge others especially those who name Christ. His life also amplified what my Classic Greek professor told us. During the early years of Christianity there is a document illustrating the burning of two Christians. The story went that the Roman soldier tied them facing each other before they were to be burned. Each asked the Roman soldier if they can be burned not facing each other, why? Because each looked at the other as a heretic. The soldier obliged, but burned them together anyway.
wow, gripping story. thanks.
There was a video on Remnant Radio yesterday on where denominations come from in the church. I love that one of the 3 speakers said he was not comfortable calling Coptic Christians as heretics. There was apparently some split where they were labeled as such. He mentioned the very thing you mentioned when it comes to being martyred for your faith. We saw videos of those Coptics Christians being beheaded by Muslims for their stance that they would not deny Christ. He said that anyone that is willing to die for their faith is a faithful Christian, whatever theological disputes their branch has had in the past.
It is too bad that they martyred Christians could not realize in their final hour that all their little doctrinal debates did not matter at all, as they were about to be martyred for their mutual faith in Jesus.
This is great mate👍
What an awesome video. Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for posting this vid. I was raised Pentecostal but I’m inquiring into Orthodoxy and this is one issue I’m still thinking/praying over before I officially become a catechumen. All your videos have been extremely helpful!
glad to hear that!
I saw that the Pentecostal church has had a devastating impact against Islam in Indonesia. Growing so powerful. So many Muslim converting to Jesus. Orthodox Church has no impact. Tiny and very few churches not really growing over so many years. Orthodox will make you renounce everything Pentecostal as false and deception. Even though they can’t beat Islam in Indonesia but Pentecostal can. At least Rome is open to Pentecostal movement to some degree and has 300 million charismatics. Joining Orthodox is like saying your whole Christian life has been a lie. Hahaha 🤣
Nice I'm a pentecostal
Thank you for the video, Gavin! I’ve been coming to this conclusion myself, it’s helpful to have somebody articulate it so well. You obviously clarified that you couldn’t go into much nuance in a shorter video, so I was wondering how you would qualify the fruit tree statement? Otherwise it feels like it could be used to argue for pluralism or universalism? Or It can be applied to other religions, at least, so how would you caveat that statement that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree good fruit?
I think the basic appeal is what I expressed in the video: Jesus did not mean by the word "fruit" general religious experience. I Cor. 12:3 qualifies the argument further by putting the focus on Christ.
@@TruthUnites Very helpful, Thank you!
Your point about Israel being divided between north and south, Israel and Judah, yet still being one "people of God" was something I had never quite thought about it relation to fractures and denominations within the Church. It reminded of Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 23, Samaria and Jerusalem are described as sisters. But more than that I was reminded of how Ezekiel used the phrase "house of Israel" to refer to different subsets of Israelites, yet they were all the "house of Israel." Often in Ezekiel 'house of Israel' refers either to the exiles in Babylon or those left in the land of Judah (or both). But in Ezekiel 37ː16, he uses 'house of Israel' for those of the northern kingdom (represented by Joseph/Ephraim). Those of Judah are called by a parallel expression the 'people of Israel.' Then God says he will rejoin the two kingdoms. But the people of both are called 'Israelites.' And God will do this with the Church when he restores all things. Though fractured into different institutions now, God will restore his entire people into one. This, I presume, is the 'great multitude' of Revelation 7.
great observations about Ezekiel
This theology that God will unite the different disagreeing Catholic and Protestant groups has literally no basis in scripture. The great multitude is made up of ppl who have _never_ known God before the Tribulation. The context in Rev. 7:13-14 makes that abundantly clear where it says that these ppl's sins will be forgiven.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 Regardless of who the multitude of Rev 7 is, which may depend on which particular eschatological view is correct, I think the things I referred to in Ezekiel, as well as the thread of reconciliation that runs throughout the Scriptures, lends credence to the idea that various groups of disagreeing Christans (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Coptic, etc.) will be united in the eschaton. In the post-resurrection, eternal presence of the Almighty God, it is difficult to imagine rifts remaining. Of course, one might say, "But only one group is the true Church that will be saved in the first place," but Gavin's point and mine are that the Scriptures already show God describing people who are fractured in some way(s) as still his people.
English
Jesus, this was Wonderful! "Wonderful" is the word that best describes this video of yours, Gavin. I've seen piety and sincere love in you, I also have seen love and true desire for the unity of all Christians. Congratulations on that. I hope from the bottom of my heart that our beloved Catholic and Orthodox brothers will watch this video. I also hope that members of exclusivist evangelical churches will also attend, as it is very necessary. 12 years ago I left an evangelical denomination precisely because I couldn't stand their exclusivity in preaching anymore. God did not choose an institution to represent him exclusively on Earth, rather he chose a Church, which is the universal congregation of the elect, of the people of God, and I also think that this people is included in the most diverse denominations of Christianity. God's grace is multifaceted. Well, I know that it is necessary to maintain a basic orthodoxy so that we can have a more unanimous unity, but this can be achieved through our adherence to the Bible, not going beyond what is written in it, and to the Apostles' Creed (which summarizes the most elementary doctrines of the Theology, Ecclesiology and Christology). If we are willing to keep this in mind, all exclusivist Pharisaism collapses, and in its place, the long-desired Unity will arise.
God bless you so much, Gavin. This channel has been essential to bless and unite, around Christ and His Word, Christians of the most diverse traditions.
Ps: Pls, keep pointing out in all your videos that we Protestants love each other very much despite denominationalism, because this is the purest truth. Also emphasize that we love our Catholic and Eastern Orthodox BROTHERS very much, as this is also the purest and absolute truth.❤
Português
Maravilhoso! Maravilhoso é a palavra que melhor descreve este seu vídeo, Gavin. Vi piedade e amor sincero em você, vi também amor e desejo verdadeiro pela unidade de todos os cristãos. Parabéns por isso. Espero do fundo do meu coração que os nossos amados irmãos católicos e ortodoxos assistam a este vídeo. Espero também que os membros de igrejas evangélicas exclusivistas também o assistam, pois é muito necessário. Há 12 anos eu deixei uma denominação evangélica justamente porque não suportava mais o exclusivismo deles nas pregações. Deus não escolheu uma instituição para representá-lo com exclusividade na Terra, antes ele escolheu uma Igreja, que é a congregação universal de eleitos, do povo de Deus, e penso também que este povo está inserido nas mais diversas denominações do Cristianismo. Sei que é preciso manter uma ortodoxia básica para que possamos ter uma unidade mais unânime, e tal coisa pode ser obtida através da nossa adesão à bíblia, não ultrapassando o que nela está escrito, e ao Credo Apostólico (que sumariza as doutrinas mais elementares da Teologia, Eclesiologia e Cristologia). Se nos dispusermos a ter isso em mente, todo o Farisaísmo exclusivista desmorona, e no seu lugar, surgirá a tão desejada unidade.
Abraços. Deus te abençoe muito, Gavin. Seu canal tem sido essencial para abençoar e unir, em torno de Cristo e Sua Palavra, os cristaos das mais diversas tradições.
Ps: Ressalte sempre em todos os seus vídeos que nós, Protestantes, nos amamos muito uns aos outros apesar do denominacionalismo, pois isto é a mais pura verdade. Ressalte também que amamos muito os nossos IRMÃOS Católicos e Ortodoxos Orientais, pois esta é também a mais pura e absoluta verdade.
Thanks for the kind comments, appreciate your sentiments!
Read my comments above for the truth of Gavin's misunderstandings. There is only one True Church with Peter as it's head
Proof Eucharist is body of Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary is his mother.
48I am the bread of life.
49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z
50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a
52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?”
53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b
58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
Eucharistic miracle..
th-cam.com/video/soCkftBBsBo/w-d-xo.html (medical reports-living heart tissue, blood type AB)
th-cam.com/video/oogJ-cdi7yI/w-d-xo.html (Rome Reports)
th-cam.com/video/whbzLYi7cyc/w-d-xo.html (Lanciano)
th-cam.com/video/6PJ8BORx1p8/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/bd16tBRbLXw/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/PvxTDAVypxs/w-d-xo.html (levitating eucharist)
Incorruptible bodies of saints due to the Eucharist - only happens in the Catholic church. No other religion has this miracle
th-cam.com/video/GSCk0qs-2-M/w-d-xo.html (Padre Pio)
th-cam.com/video/40UZLnIdplo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/jN4SvtRje2I/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/-TrR1CEWdbc/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/XCDBekAQ-FI/w-d-xo.html (Carlo Acutis)
th-cam.com/video/33vlkJh2iJc/w-d-xo.html
Apparition of Virgin Mary
th-cam.com/video/GQnKS7YUE7Q/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Ivory Coast)
th-cam.com/video/0PPGuMmn6TQ/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary statue moving)
th-cam.com/video/tVU8bhbQInw/w-d-xo.html (Virgin Mary apparition in Egypt)
th-cam.com/video/nMEWxRB-1dc/w-d-xo.html 1968 Egypt
th-cam.com/video/8YR6INkTK7Q/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun)
th-cam.com/video/yF0_ysUivxE/w-d-xo.html (Miracle of the sun)
th-cam.com/video/76qAMB3qUpA/w-d-xo.html Medjugorje Sun miracle on Easter Sunday
th-cam.com/video/RyYNIulxIbc/w-d-xo.html Virgin Mary appears in Egypt & Spain-Eye Witnesses
@@dennis1662 I think you need to watch this video over and over and over again.
That is facts!! Glory to Jesus Christ!
Already in the 4th C. John Chrysostom wrote that the virginity of heretics is fornication and the martyrdom of heretics is suicide. Very harsh, indeed. How did it go from Jesus's saying 'Forbid him not' (who follows not with us but casts out demons in my name) and 'the Spirit bloweth where it listeth' and many other things from Scripture to such exclusivity?! Thank you, Gavin, for all your very well-researched studies and discussions on this.
I love this... I see those claims alllllll the time against us. Thank you for your work!! Would love to have you here in Grand Rapids playing soccer with us!!!!!
as long as its in the summer! :)
Pastor Gavin you did a great job in explaining the so-called”one true church” concept. I do agree with you in your arguments of its exclusivity. I sensed that for many years, it is part of the church indoctrination, which the best way that I could sum it up. Read church history from the beginning of Constantine. I know that there are a lot of truth seekers within Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox and it is often very difficult to tear away. One of my own concerns is “the ever Virgin Mary”, Theotokos. This is inconsistent with the biblical teachings. But keep these videos coming. A note to Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, I am discussing my view based on learning and exploring my faith. God bless.