00:00 Download the Conscious Spending Plan so you can use your money GUILT-FREE: iwt.com/csp-youtube Please remember: These are real people who had the courage to come on my podcast and ask for help. Would you be willing to come on this podcast and share every detail of your financial life? Feel free to leave comments based on what you think, but remember that we are here to help in a supportive way, not to demean and criticize.
I used the CSP but struggle because I am on a never ending sabbatical so I pull from investments every month. I don’t have an income in a sense so I am not sure if I am doing it right. I apply what I pull from investments as net income. I may be overthinking it.
My dad had a stressful government job & my mom started selling real estate (back in 70s). They also invested in multiple rental properties. My dad would spend every weekend messing with the properties. He was stressed, overweight & had not had a vacation in years. One day, I asked him why are you doing this? It was to leave my brother & I the all these properties when they died. I told him flat out I didn't want any of it, we would prefer our parents to be alive and while I had been to europe twice already (in my 20s) he and my mom had never been anywhere. He just looked at me astonished. Soon after, they sold the most troublesome properties and started taking several great vacations a year even into their early 80s. They traveled all over the world. They kept a couple really good properties with a manager, they invested well, they were able to help us out when we really needed financial help as adults. They lived into their 90s. Sometimes a mindshift changes everything.
This guy does a lot of work that is not being acknowledged: - Manages the rental and up keep - Takes care of the kids - Deals with the issues of rentals and they want more Gender roles are in play here. Imagine if the roles were reversed and the man said the woman wasn't doing enough. There is a real cost to the hidden, unpaid work that people do in a relationship and a family.
The kids are in daycare...so for her, he isn't taking care of the kids. So her interpretation is that he is doing a bit more, but only because she works fulltime.
@@tswinton8185yes. But kids get sick, they need ferrying to sports and activities..they need to buy things and spend time with them. Dinners need to be made etc... those are invisible work that a person does for the family. She wants him to get a better paid job. But that better paying job will demand more of your time and will be inflexible to family needs.
@@tswinton8185Kids being in daycare is only a fraction of parenting. What we don't know is: - who is doing the morning routine to prep the kids for daycare (bathing, feeding, clothing, reading, driving, etc.)? - who is doing the evening routine? Possibly even the afternoon routine, depending on when daycare ends? - who is taking care of the kids when on days the kids are sick or federal/state holidays? - who is primarily supporting the kids during the weekends? That's just one area of unrecognized (or devalued) labor of parenting, let alone the associated housekeeping work. Maybe they share it relatively equally. Maybe not. We can't and shouldn't say that. What we can say is that "the kids are in daycare" is insufficient evidence for parity in parenting. I suspect Emory is doing more and not being as recognized as he could be. That's been a problem for many women for basically ever, but when gender roles are changed and the man is not "earning" enough, then it presents another unique challenge. He may be doing a bit more, but he may also be doing hours more, each day, that combine with his rental property management, his other part-time job, and possibly (we don't know) housekeeping work that is related to, but different from parenting duties.
She sounds like she has so much resentment about her husband's work or lack of it from her perspective. It bleeds through everything she says. It seems to affect everything in their life and marriage. It seems like such a hard marriage to be in. I feel sad for them.
Guys, we get this podcast for free. Ads are annoying but they help keep this show free for us. I would gladly pay for this content but I love that he keeps this free for everyone to enjoy.
I think the issue others have is that we pay for TH-cam Premium and are told videos would now be ad free, yet Ramit is placing ads every two minutes of the video..
I wish Ramit would’ve called her out more on this specific statement she repeated repetitively about “if Emory would get a job”. He does have a job. It’s belittling and condescending for her to continue to say that. He makes 3k a month which is not as much as her. But it is a job.
Ramit actually belittled him as well saying an adult shouldn’t be making what he’s making. Ouch! If they were struggling I would agree but clearly they’re not. This was tough to watch.
She wants him to have an impressive white collar W-2 job that can be easily signaled to her friends--or whatever that brings a lot of money. At the same time, she wants him to have time to date and have all these cool properties. A solid career man with an entrepreneurial itch. I've had a busy full-time job and a successful side business (using Ramit's course) for years. It's quite possible if you're single and focused, but I can also say that having two+ jobs isn't for everyone. You don't have time to properly build a relationship, have kids, or simply have free time away from work. The money issue is a good scapegoat and distraction but not the full picture. Internally, she is conflicted. She is attached to him but has resentment toward how things turned out now that she's the main breadwinner. She could have had any man she wanted in her 20s and 30s. But if she was going to be stuck with him, she'd want him to be at least equally rich as her. She didn't get to date, and now she's fully in her masculine. All the money she has now doesn't matter at this point. You can go to a resort with all the food and excess you want, but it's meaningless if the person you're with isn't making you feel fulfilled. As you become self-sufficient, your standards creep up, which is a rough outcome for people who want to have it all. You suffer from success.
From the context I inferred that she meant “get a job” as opposed to being self-employed. It seemed that the (perceived) reliability of employment was important to her and the variability of income from self-employment was stressful for her.
“Comparison is the thief of joy.” However, there is something to be learned from others so you can’t completely be blind to the lives and financial journeys of others.
Especially when it comes to finances! You have no idea if your friends and neighbors are living their lives saddled with credit card debt or whatever else. I have coworkers (some of whom make half of what I make, based on local averages for that position) who take vacations all the time. I have a really good rent situation and good earnings so I know they're putting those trips on a credit card. If I judged my life against theirs purely on what they do, it would appear I'm missing out big time, but it's never that simple.
It’s amazing how so much of this comes down to communication and empathy. I’ve gone from being the higher income earner to the much lower one who takes on more of the responsibilities around the house. It’s tough on the ego and the self worth. You need a supportive partner to get through that and realize that it’s about contributing to your joint rich life. Your value is not equal to your pay
Can we get the couples specific demographics in the intro again; Age, kids, married etc. Don't particularly care about the intro music good or bad but the brief demographics after the title screen are what helped set how relatable this couple is to our current scenario. Overall though love what you do Ramit keep it going!
Thank you, @ramitsethi! I also like to know geographical area because it matters a lot. $200k in the Midwest goes a lot further than in the Northeast, so it gives further context
Yes! The black screen with white text containing biographical info, either at the beginning of the episode, or before you get into the CSP (where it used to be) is great!
My wife makes 3 times as much as her and she appreciates everything I do with our investments, rentals, and kids. Without me she wouldn’t have that career. It’s a team effort and she tells me how much she appreciates it. We have rentals and airbnbs and I hire management companies for those I don’t care to manage myself.
I think the difference is he has been inconsistent. His income is inconsistent. His work is inconsistent. He is making less than $50,000 a year. If she loses her job they are both out of luck.
@@saeedhossain6099 that’s not a fair assumption. She’s been holding them up nearly the entire relationship giving him the time and space to work on his dreams. Someone who isn’t a team player would have left him a long time ago. It gets heavy and exhausting. Especially when you don’t WANT to be the breadwinner. I feel bad that he feels bad but her feelings are her feelings.
@@cm88__ny she knows what she is getting out of him and the value it provides, she doesn't want to acknowledge it and by acting as if the only value is money, it she can use it as a cuggle to claim the high ground. his consistent work is being on call to deal with problems she bought in order to do the airBNB, he's consistent because he's the primary caregiver to their kids, he's consistent because he's the one picking up all the household work so she can focus on her job, he's consistent in planning and executing on the vacation she wants and then has to take her complaints about his beer. if you've ever considered the phrase "unpaid labour" but don't apply it to his case, that sad. his income inconsistency is the cost of him picking up all the other valuable but non monetary dimensions of their life.
This guy is a saint. One spouse only values a 'good paying desk job' while the other is doing so much work that would be equivalent to tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars a year if hired out. This woman is definitely trying to reach for her rich life, but she forgets she has a husband and its their rich life not just hers.
Yeah I have the same impression of her. All she seems to care about is more money more money so she can show it off to people. The husband wants to be able to remove the extras of their life so he can have the extra time to bring in more. He doesn't have the time since he is the majority parent raising the kids and the property manager of all their properties. It's too much for him to handle and he is drowning and she only cares about more money. If the roles were reversed, everyone would be screaming at the man for saying what this woman is saying
He’s a leech and a loser. She needs to dump him and find a real man. How does he even call himself a “stay-at-home-dad” when they are paying for full-time daycare?
@Aftermath-o4f This man is doing the traditional female role. Many women, unfortunately, will work full-time and then come home and be a housewife and primary caregiver, while their husband doesn't do as much. A lot of time, this "women's work" is not valued because it is unpaid and expected to be done by the person who earns less, which used to primarily be the woman.
I’m empathize with Annie - being the sole breadwinner can feel isolating and burdensome. But I felt that this conversation really punished Emery for pointing out all the manual labor he does and how getting a full time job will be cancelled out by the money they would have to pay. Ramit immediately points out that “he can’t have it all” when he mentions this - but it’s Annie that doesn’t seem to see this. Annie is the dreamer that wants the rentals, the vacations, and a full dual income. Notice how the 50k salary for Emery is commented as a “good starting point”, continuously changing the goal post and needing him to bring in 100k. There isn’t a lot any talk about the actual money needed to live their rich life - it’s just about feeling “fair”
Did you notice when it was "$50K/year" transformed into "$50K/year NET" and again ($50K NET by the end of this year" (there's only 5 - 6 months left depending on when this was recorded)? Talk about moving the goal post! They haven't actually sold the properties yet, so when is husband's time going to be freed up to earn more income?
So she wants him to take care of the rentals, the home, the children, and earn as much as she does. Absolutely not possible. She’s unrealistic and resentful.
@@christinaslate1865. The rentals do take time and commitment. If the 2 rentals only took 7 hours a week consistently, he could hold down a 50-100k job. But, the one house is in disrepair which causes him to drop everything and work 55 hours some weeks. They would have to hire a property manager to take over for him to go back to steady work. Or he could find a very flexible part time job to bring in more money but it probably would not be enough to make her happy.
Property management is unpredictable. 7 hours one week and 55 another. Yes, woman and men both work, have kids in day care, cook and clean. But my point is that he can’t just go find a steady 50-100k job and be available to manage those rentals. They would have to hire someone else to take over that job in his place.
@@christinaslate1865that does not make it right. Man or woman, it’s unfair, and quite mean, to expect your partner take care of home chores, manage rental properties, and earn as much as you do. That’s straight evil!
Yeah it was borderline painful to listen to that dialogue. I’m off to tell my fiance how awesome he is and how much I appreciate his contributions to our relationship 🏃♀️
@@alwaysemilia It hopefully goes both ways! I always remind my wife how much I love and admire her too. I do feel bad for Emery too. We can't know what was going through his head throughout the recording, home people are not very expressive, but he seemed dead inside the entire time, and I noticed that Ramit didn't give him much time to express himself, and even interrupted him a few times when he tried to talk. I wouldn't fault him for feeling dismissed.
I think men miss it when they focus solely on money. You need to find out what makes your wife secured or feel secured. The road map has not been defined by him so it is easy to say she is focusing on money. I make way more than my wife but we both run the planning and money has never been an issue even when we never hard. We have been married for 19 yrs and have more than 3.0 now. Collective planning when we are calm and relaxed is key.
My wife earns twice as much as me literally! I have never given it a second thought, I am proud of her and she is proud of me, we support each other. Seeing this couple makes me appreciate my wife even more
“The more assets you have, the better” I’ve seen lots of people with even high incomes get into trouble with that attitude. I knew a guy earning $250k a year who owned 6 houses but had to take a loan for living expenses. He was trying to spin too many plates at the same time.
I worked for a commercial building owner. In his early years, he owned 30 residential homes, which was a headache for him so he decided to sell them all. He then restarted and owned 4 shopping plazas. Less maintenance and more and longer rental leases.
My mantra is “the less stress you have, the better”. Sometimes having more income is a way to reduce stress. But often times, getting that income can produce more stress than it’s worth. I turned down the opportunity for rental property because I already have my hands full juggling my kids, hobbies, and career.
She's not approaching their marriage/finances as a team from this conversation, all she sees is that she makes more but doesn't seem interested in sharing that abundance. She doesn't have much capacity for empathy. It's a real problem when you can't empathize with your partner
She is funding his entire lifestyle and trips so she is already sharing. Her issue is that she is fixated on these properties and not listening to his concerns about them, when her husband is clearly sick to death of them (rightfully) and the cost and effort to maintain them isn’t worth it. They would do better by selling them, using some of those funds to invest in his business that he enjoys and he can start contributing more doing something he loves then they can all be happy.
@@Aileenwasright the thing is they’re married, so I wouldn’t even call it “sharing”. She’s tossing him scraps and feels resentment about him not bringing a bigger plate to the table.
Yes! It feels like she's built up so much resentment that she can't access empathy in this situation. I think talking with Ramit was an excellent starting point/catalyst. I hope they do couple's therapy to help unpack this further!
Her husband is doing a LOT that she should value. I am the breadwinner in my relationship (I'm gemale, he's male) and I couldn't care less about that. I am just happy if I come home and the bed is made. Anything he can do to take tasks off my plate is appreciated.
I hope Annie takes time to read Farnoosh Torabi’s book “When She Makes More.” There are so many ways to contribute to a household when there are young kids. And literally hundreds of thousands of people (mostly women) had their jobs/businesses disrupted by school and daycare closures from the pandemic. It’s heartbreaking to see Annie characterize the very material disruption of a 2 week daycare closure as “excuses.” Most parents of young kids need either one parent or a nearby family member who has the flexibility to drop everything and attend to unexpected needs. Emery’s handling the properties and the caregiving work has enabled Annie to advance her career and earning power. If they paid someone $20/hr to do the work he’s been holding down, it would probably be $150,000/year worth of labor. I hope they can work through these dynamics with support. And I hope that emery at the very least is taking some of their *household* income and maxing out his Roth IRA in addition to having his own guilt free spending.
@@paeragefor her, if it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. she doesn't care about the imputed value or replacement cost of farming out his labour, his time is hers to do with what she pleases becuse she makes more than him. she'd also be the kind of person who believes his money is the family money and her money is her money. there's no reading up on how to work your way out of a fundamental character trait (or flaw if you're feeling uncharitable).
@@saeedhossain6099yeah it sounds like she resents him for every dollar with this kind of person you need to hire someone and get your own bag otherwise nothing you do is valued
I feel for Emery... seems no matter what he does it will never be good enough. He's lambasted for not making more money, for this that and the other thing. And this to me feels like Annie is projecting her lack of "good enough" feelings onto Emery. I'm glad that they arrived at this by the end of the episode. I agree with Emery that they need to declutter their lives. I also agree with him about the sunk cost fallacy with their property that needs a lot of work, that the "assets" no longer serve them. Cut the rental property losses, they already have a ton of debt/to manage re: the properties, the properties are not helping them and adding stress and tension to their lives. They already make a bunch of money. She says she enjoys the gains and investments, but earlier she said the properties make them NO MONEY. She needs to get honest about whether or not she actually wants these things. Because Emery is VERY content to live a super simple, chill life. And that's possible for them now - but both need to have this vision/be on board for it. Just finished: Happy that they are going to get rid of at least one of the rental properties and are simplifying things. I hope that Emery is afforded the opportunity to relax and breathe because I get the impression that he's unable to do that with Annie... (I also hope that Annie does her work for her stuff so she doesn't continue to take it out on Emery, and herself.)
In my experience the person bringing less income but handles the tasks the other person can’t do because of time go undervalued. I lived this when we had our twins and I stayed at home, my ex berated me for being “lazy” even though I was handling the household, 2 preemie new born babies, 2 other children and everything else all by myself. Grateful I am self employed, divorced and doing well now.
It's really weird how people don't see the value of the stay at home person for some reason. Like do people not think about how fucked their house and family would be if no one was there to take care of it when you can't or don't even want to.
I was a involuntary landlord because I couldn’t sell my house after a move. It was an older house as well. I was stressed out for 11 years because of the surprise 3-7k fixes that constantly popped up and wiped out any gains from rental income. It’s a headache. I’m team sell the damn house.
Yes, every time I had the opportunity to keep a house and rent it out, I responded that that sounded like the 8th circle of hell, and I sold it. Good Lord, it's like people who say, I'll open a restaurant! How hard could it be!
Most people would love to make over $200,000 a year. So many problems in this world. If they could just look at their situation from a distance they could look at it and say what in the world are we fighting about? We have it all!
@@cognitive-botanical-therapyeven when she did and was like I wouldn’t want to do anything. Then proceeds to basically say that that’s not OK for my husband to feel like that and he’s not doing enough. 🤦🏼♂️
Maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe I am just misreading it. But it seems that he will never be enough for her. In her head, that person doesn't exist. She doesn't really consider him, his wants, and his needs. But also it could be the Filipino upbringing. My in-laws are Filipino and they feel very similarly about money. They keep everything they buy even if they have to spend thousands of dollars to keep them.
People for who it is never enough tend to have three common attributes: - They are "unhappy" and don't know why - They don't know what they want and what it costs - They don't realize that the first two points are true If I am unhappy and don't know what I want, one easy way to deal with it is to demand more. Maybe "more" will make me happy (It usually does not). It also has to be somebody else's fault; it would be terrible to realize that part of the problems are the result of things I wanted. If you want to see this effect on a larger scale, you can look at many political movements (at the end of the day, most political positions are emotions and personality traits expressed on a larger scale): People are unhappy but cannot really articulate why, but the solution has to be whatever political demand which conveniently implies that the current situation is definitely not partially caused by us.
Ramit literally asked her to roleplay and she couldn’t even comprehend what being in her husband’s position would be like - she had never thought about it. This was brutal to witness. I’ve watched at least 5 sets of these couples and found the relationship dynamics in this one to be by far the most concerning. I hope they figure it out but there seemed to be problems well beyond money on display here.
Love when Tuesday comes around . I’ve been watching these therapy like episodes for the last three weeks . Definitely learned how to ask better questions . Ramit your a Genius for this
I don't really understand how the wife doesn't even really aknowledge all the day to day hassles the husband takes off her plate. Property management and child care are both full time jobs.
@@o0usf0ocooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, kids’ activities, plus his job and managing the airbnbs…. Is it really that difficult to think beyond “man should make money otherwise useless”??
Unfortunately I'm not sure this couple even knows what they want. They're a bit all over the place. The only thing I know for sure is they're unhappy with how things stand.
Ramit, I enjoy your videos a lot, and I find them super insightful. It made me have a conversation with my SO and we have improved our financial life by a lot. However it was painful for me to watch this episode. 80% of the conversation was about the wife's perspective 10% on common perspective and 10% ads. I got the feeling the husband gives up his dreams every day by contributing more to their house chores, working on their rental properties. In exchange his wife belittles his effort and demands him to earn more. Without telling how her can take over some of the work at home or at the rental places so he can focus on his business. My observation might be absolutely incorrect as we did not hear his to talk much. Maybe it is the cuts, but 50% of the time you cut him off after 2 sentences. Still a great episode to listen.
I completely agree with your observation. When you're starting a business it takes a lot of work. Then he's got jobs lined up, and has to cancel all those jobs to take care of her rental properties he doesn't want, or why can't she take some time to help with the kids, take turns. I love his saying that "he wants to de-clutter their life." What a great assertive way to say, I need this balanced out, we''re in a money pit with the property that takes away the time I could be using to turn my business into something way more profitable. I also love when Ramit brings out the craziness of wanting him to make more money to spend on rental properties they don't even need, and are in fact hurting them. Ramit hit it spot on. Take away the properties would resolve a lot of the arguments, and issues with money would ease up! I see how a lot of his side isn't brought out. If he had the time to spend on his business, how much more income would he be able to contribute? She resents his "low-paying business" yet expects him to handle everything that would take someone away from work, to the point of canceling all the jobs he had lined up (contributing income). Happy to see in the follow up videos they are doing exactly that~way to go to both of them for making uncomfortable change, to get a much better quality of life!
I felt like by Ramit focusing on her, it was actually helping the husband because he helped her to breakdown how she’s treating him & why. The husband was trying to tell her, but she wasn’t hearing it nor was he able to interpret it in a way she’d compute.
Right, perhaps they need a part time nanny and just 1 property with a property manager, just a different dynamic from what they've done so far and see if it works because they are just not happy and money is not worth the build up of resentment
@@TheThinkingBar They said the kids are in daycare. I don't know why they wouldn't hire a property manager and just normal rent. Arbnb may make more money, but the property managers charge 50% compared to the normal 10% most property managers get. I understand her, she wants at least some equality in their finances and he's not doing enough to do that. He wants a job he likes and pursues that, but no one asked her if she loves her job. She may not like it, but it pays the bills, which is what she wants from him. Not everyone gets to do their dream job, sometimes you just have to work.
Yah but Ramit has to be careful here. She has a cluster B personality disorder and he knows that, so he needs to be careful how he approaches her. I hope she gets professional help, but not optimistic.
Ramit went through their conscious spending plan too quickly! If you look closer, you will notice that Annie pays for literally everything and Emery’s 3k monthly goes directly to his guilt free spending. She covers all the fixed costs, all the investments and all the savings. She implies she would like to have an option not to work as hard but she can’t and that’s the root of her resentment
Bingo! I was wondering if I was watching a different episode based off of these comments. Emery is free to dream and focus on what he wants to focus on although it is costing the household money instead of bringing it in. Emery is claiming he can’t focus on his dream because of the distractions, needing to play property management and when there’s a disruption in childcare - neither of those things are taking up the same 40+ hours that Annie is spending on working. She wants a taste of his freedom.
Yes, but... Ramit is considering their household income as combined (as with many other couples). This isn't the first nor the last case of one partner being the primary earner and therefore covering most of or all the fixed costs! This doesn't have to mean resentment. The situation of having a partner with a starting/struggling business is akin to be married with someone studying. Are you happy to support them or do you hate it? They have enough money probably even if she takes a pay cut. It seems to me she just wants him to make more for the sake of it and/or just doesn't trust his business will ever take off...
I appreciate the deep dive your channel has been taking recently into relationships where women are the primary financial contributor. Genuine, open conversations around money, unpaid labor, and gender role expectations are key to solidifying compatibility and identifying relationship blind spots. Money problems arent always about money. I hope they can work through their challenges and thank them for sharing.
I literally started shouting "SELL THE DAMN HOUSE" at the screen! I hope Ramit's framing helps her see that "the more assets the better" is something she can unlearn to ultimately become happier
Ramit, thank you so much for doing these videos. They help me realize how good I have it with my wife and how to avoid getting into tough situations with my wife.
Thank you for sharing this story. This to me is a great example of a couple who is not living a rich life despite being objectively and financially rich for their age. I hope they can figure things out soon and enjoy their day-to-day life together.
Brilliant episode as it shows a very difficult family situation, rooted in differences in values/perspectives over money, and not actually over not having enough money. I really liked the summary of how they will move forward in the future - especially setting of boundaries and understanding of each other.
It’s interesting watching this from where I’m currently at in life. My dad died less than a month ago at 62 from stage iv cancer (died 3 days after his birthday). He was diagnosed five weeks before his death-he hadn’t had any symptoms before suddenly having all of them. He’d retired at 56 and my parents have plenty of money. I was honestly surprised by how little his death changed my perspective on money and, honestly, life. I hear it being such a transformative experience for people, and I expected a bit more of that feeling. It did change some things but more in centering/confirming what I’d arrived at, with a few tweaks. Through ramit’s work, therapy, and just spending hours interrogating my thoughts/beliefs (and thinking a lot about death, tbh), I’d arrived at working towards a balance in everything but mostly in the art of letting go. For example of not spending beyond my means but also acknowledging I could live a long time and will subsequently plan for that possibility. That extends to everything else in my life (showing up for people, generosity, exercise, eating, etc). I do wish my dad had really gotten to enjoy spending his money. However, I mostly hope he found what he gave up to make that money worth it. Tbh, I’m not so sure he did. When I see this couple, I just hope they really see what money costs. Money isn’t free. My dad spent most of his life afraid and I think trying to earn his right to exist or have self worth partially through money m. They manually paid credit cards and they have millions in retirement. Their generosity would be high, then all of sudden plummet (creating a lot of instability as a kid and even now as an adult child). At some point, you just have to make decisions, set up a system, trust you were intentional and smart, step back and hope it works out (while checking in at times). At some point, it either works or it doesn’t. My parents weren’t really able to do that and neither were/are especially happy and it was hard to spend lots of time with them, considering these issues affect more than money. This is obviously a ramble. I just want to encourage people to really think about their death and what trade offs they want to make.
I am so happy to see this episode. Gender role is such a big issue in many couple. I for one have been in that situation. I earn the high income in the family while my husband is still finishing his masters. In the beginning, it was definitely a struggle to understand. I constantly look at our spreadsheet and complain complain... But at some point we had to pause and sit down to have a one on one conversation, discussed every financial details and goals we have. It definitely changed our views. We were able to adjust our budget to things we ENJOY and love like going on hikes, camping and stop putting money on things that are causing us unhappiness. I also see how hard he works to get his masters, and if the roles were switched, I for sure would like a supportive husband too. I have been less anal about the finance, while we both make sure we are living within our budget. This couple need some guidance. I was HER before. I am also a filipina woman living in california, earning a high income. And knowing our culture, our parents rely on us especially when they get older. these are things you work with your partner, talk about it, and make sure you both have a clear idea of each others goals and compromise. Thank you Ramit for sharing these couples stories
Great show, love that you are able to meet with the couples and they get to see a different perspective. I’m glad they finally saw the stress those properties were bringing, and they will be a better partnership hopefully down the road.
Money isn't the problem. The lack of respect she has for her husband is huge. Unless he made 75%or more of her income she'll never feel he contributes enough.
Annie is afraid to dream. I totally understand why. It’s heartbreaking to watch your parents decline and struggle. Grief counseling or therapy in general can help you understand and sort out what thoughts and feelings are serving you and which to let go. My bestie does a very similar thing to her husband. It will never be enough. Thank you Annie and Emory for your courage to bare all.❤❤
Saving by buying stocks, but then unwilling to sell if/when needed... when Ramit suggested to sell and put that money in an actual savings account her heart just about stopped! I'm no expert, one thing I do know is that the stock market is not the place for savings you want to use within a year. It feels risky for a 5-year planned expense. 10+ years is ok, but I start twitching at years 8 and 9... 😂
Putting savings into stocks is fine as long as you can mentally it like a savings account. But most people can’t do that. They have anxiety needing to sell stocks to use as the savings account it’s supposed to be
I love how Ramit brings up the big picture - they’re financially fine. He brings up the emotions - they’re stressing out about the small things. Such an eye opening discussion
I found it telling that the rich life was about downsizing and moving to the Philippines. She also mentioned moving off the grid. Then later when Ramit asked what would they do with an extra $50k net and their responses were about buying a new car, updating the house, etc. None of their responses had anything to do with downsizing and decluttering their lives. They have an amazing opportunity and I hope they can come together and have the rich life they want.
An accountant that doesn't know where the money is going. I see the problem. Why doesn't the husband be a stay at home dad. Save on daycare and much better for the kids. It would be much easier to manage too. They ultimately need a marriage counselor. She has a lot of resentment towards him even though they are brining lots of money home.
Time is precious. Emery needs charge hours of labors to maintain their properties and include to his income. It is almost always wife whose income is higher complain about husband lower income. If the gender is flipped, husband wouldn't complain. I feel so bad for men, so much higher expectations as men.
IWTYTBR Overarching Spoiler: Generally, female spouses are unhappy when they earn more than their male spouses, however, they frequently are unwilling to be transparent about that.
Women don’t get any high fives for being great providers they way men do (because men are fulfilling their societal expectation of them). In fact, higher-earning women often have to avoid talking about it around friends, family and their lower-earning spouse meaning that their contribution can’t be recognized in the way it would be for a male higher-earning spouse. Resentment breeds and is subverted into surprising thought patterns like Annie’s. Misogyny hurts everyone.
Lol I wish we could call out female hypocrisy without being crucified. I'm BIG on gender equality and am a feminist - if we really are striving for equality, why is women belittling/disrespecting their lower-earning male partners so normalized and not an acknowledged problem? The women on here (and a lot of women I know) are so quick to point out the flaws in men but can't see their own. To constantly hold your higher income over your partner's head is borderline abusive.
As a short term rental operator of many homes, I empathize with you. When we realized how to effectively delegate to our teams and other tasks, it CHNAGED THE GAME for us being able to spend time on more high-level revenue generating tasks boosting the business overall.
This was such a great episode, I am glad that they are both able to come to a consensus on the way forward. At the end of the day communication and a shared vision of the future are what is most important, most everything else falls into place after that.
Awww man I’m getting killed in these comments 😅. Maybe I didn’t reiterate how much I appreciate what Emery does. This was almost a 4 hour interview…Emery did talk a lot more during 😅. I think there’s also confusion how we split other things: kid rearing (60/40), rentals (50/50 he does physical labor, I do admin labor), household chores (70/30). I swear I do things outside of work to help with the household 😆. Also the sister in law I mentioned just passed away last night so comments have been overwhelming. I swear I’m still a person with feelings and can read all the comments.
You have my sympathies when it comes to your sister-in-law, but it also was painful to see the lack of empathy that you showed Emery during this podcast. It felt like you had no desire to see things from his perspective when it comes to his career, and your stubbornness during the podcast to hold onto the properties is killing any opportunity for him to make more money with his business. I’m glad in the end, you chose to get rid of the property that was causing issues, but there’s more to a marriage than dealing with money. Supporting each other’s dreams is a big part of it as well. I hope you are able to improve in that department and let go a little when it comes to accumulating assets. After all, which do you want, a loving husband by your side when it’s time for you to go or a bunch of assets that caused a lot of angst? I hope you are choosing the former going forward.
@@Trix897easy to be a keyboard warrior. Want to support a grown adult for 18 years to pursue his dreams? I have. When could I pursue mine? Edit doesn’t show that “majority” means 60/40…that means I still do almost half the household and child rearing and rental management…he mainly does maintenance. They cut a lot of stuff that was said.
Annie needs to be more loving and supportive. There's more to marriage than just money like being respectful and grateful for what each person contributes to the relationship. Stressing over a $5 beer is really sad to see.
How can you be an "optimizer" without knowing the numbers? The whole point of optimization is to get the numbers as high (or low) as possible. There is no way this is optimization.
He called her an optimiser and I agree. She could optimise harder of course, but the mere fact she's using stocks as savings is a stupid mistake that only an optimiser-type would commit.
Many Optimizers don't know their numbers. They simply optimize the wrong things, typically pointless minutiae that make them feel in control but actually don't do anything. This is extremely common!
@@ramitsethiI feel called out. 😂 When I want to lose myself in my spreadsheets (eases my anxiety) , I try to ask myself how that's going to help me. Answer is it won't now that I've automated everything. Still do it though.
@@ramitsethi I defer to your superior knowledge and experience. As an engineer, one of the first things they teach you is you can’t optimize (improve) something if you don’t measure it first. I like to optimize (and automate) my finances, not sure I like being lumped in with this behavior. 🤔😅
I'd love to have seen a P&L of the rental properties. As an accountant part of me wonders if they are mixing personal and business too much with that and it's not being treated as a separate entity enough.
Yes that really came out of nowhere. I sympathize as someone who also has a parent with a terminal illness well before age 90, but that doesn't seem to be changing either Annie's behavior -- or mine -- in the direction of wanting to "spend it all now" because you may not have all the years to use it after your retire. It seems like that's a common & understandable "money story" but I don't see how it actually applies to Annie's outlook or behavior, with her "optimizing" by keeping the houses as "assets" for the future or using stocks as "savings" that theoretically could go to vacation but she doesn't actually want to cash out.
@@marykaitlynclark-joseph4192 it felt more like she subconsciously doesn’t want to spend it all, though she does voice having thoughts of wanting to enjoy living in the moment and doing more than just maximizing earnings at times. But I think the book may have shifted, perhaps even enhanced her thoughts and emotions about money into a “constant fear of not having enough” state. Like how she describes not being able to change her life and career or lose her current job. She wants to maximize her (earning) potential now before it’s too late. How her husband is not earning “enough” according to her potential, but can live and spend frivolously on $5 beer with his lower income could be why she holds a lot of resentment.
I think I learn a little bit of myself and alter my rich life when I listen to the couples you have a conversation about money. It's not the big ticket stuff but the small ones such as take a walk without worrying about tomorrow, buying an double scoop icecream for my youngest cousin....
Why there is not a value on his work maintaining the rental properties? The rental properties are a business and if it does not make any money why keep them?
Too bad there was so little time spent on her dad. Would be curious what her family upbringing around money was like. Did her mom stay at home, was money tight and dad always hustled + sacrificed? From her rare emotional reaction when thinking about his health issue and her sadness at him not being able to spend what he worked for while healthy, perhaps there is something deeper which ties into her contempt* for Emory. *Contempt is harsh but that's how Annie came across. I'm generally biased against the high earning partner when they treat the lower earned with disrespect- even when I agree that the lower earner could probably be doing more. Hope for both their sakes and especially for their children that they can rebuild the respect. They've built a great financial foundation together, it's meaningless if they lose each other in the process.
33:19 anything he does has to be challenged, yet when she wants to go to a Swift concert and he has to make it happen on a shoestring budget. sounds very coercive and controlling...... she wants on call service but doesn't want to pay the carry cost. imagine wanting to be able to call an ambulance, and then complain about the cost of the gas, totally disregarding the cost of keeping a crew and facilities working.
Around the 50 minutes mark it all started to make sense. Her not being able to dream and wanting a perfect plan for the future reminded me so much of myself.
He is managing a million dollar worth of rental properties 😂 i feel like if he charges her for his work at market rate she will chill out on criticizing his contribution
I got the impression that he (Emery) is doing handyman type jobs while she does all the admin management. He wasn’t aware of the income/expenditure associated with the rentals, while she immediately said they were only breaking even. No judgement. But he is very very laid back over literally everything and she seems to be overcompensating and fed up. The episode was really good as in this case, Ramit’s facilitation to help them communicate better and balance their values over their finances was brilliant.
48:59 "Why are you doing this?" Because this is the way yhe marriage has worked (along with the kids) without having to dig deeper into the real issues. They need to talk to a therapist and hash out some stuff. I wish them both the absolute best.
Speaking from family and homeowner experience, if those friends appear to have their lives together while having kids they’re either lying or they’re getting help with either housework, kids or both.
They have completely different mindsets on how life and money works. I won’t be surprised if her parents are also involved in the pressure here. Her mindset is more similar to many I’ve seen from southern and eastern Asia. I hope they get on the same page. She can’t throw the rental properties there, ask him to take care of them, and do some work for the kids, and have a thriving business. On the other hand he hasn’t been affirmative and communicative enough. Maybe earning less has created a power dynamic where he can’t express himself freely. Big problems in this marriage, best of luck to them both.
@@HelloLudger I suspect that the net value she gave of $1,000,000 may be inaccurate. Or maybe it's accurate? They live in California, where old busted-up homes are easily worth more than that. I also believe that the home is actually not even hers yet, its her parent's family home. The home where she grew up in. That's why she doesn't want to sell it. There is sentimental value to it. I can also GUARANTEE that her family is DEEPLY involved with their finances too. Filipino culture. There's this thing where they are all in each other's business/lives to a much bigger extent than your average American family.
I wish more people understood this. There's such a privileged way of thinking. When we were getting out of debt, we did so many stay-cations in the area. The *felt* place was very similar. It was so fun and energizing and very low cost. We enjoyed the real peace of mind in all of that.
I highly empathize with being the HOH. I understand Annie’s frustration. I notice a lot of criticism of her but if it were reversed, I am not clear I would see this. I can see briefly from the CSP he is not contributing to fixed costs or savings, at all because his income is much lower. Half of their gross worth is in liability. Personally, that would stress me out. If she loses her income, the family is in trouble, even with those rental properties from a cash flow perspective. You can say they can sell the asset, but timing in the market is everything. The fact is cost of living for families has gone up. Child care is the equivalent of additional rent per child ie. Rent at 2k, Childcare is at similar equivalent or more. Their home payment is $3,3k. The mortgage on my uncle’s home when he passed in 2011 was less than $1k for a home in San Diego, after his refi, to give perspective on how much higher housing costs have become. They said they are paying for child care in addition to both of their contributions to the household. If you gave the husband 6-10 percent in property management fee per rental or factored that and just took the depreciation/accounting loss, that could add to partial solution of this problem. Someone suggested converting the airbnb to long-term. I think taking the sale and putting it in the market is a hypothetical solution, there is no guarantee that putting it in the market will result in the $9M projected number and at their total gross income they do need decent tax write offs, real estate can offer that. I am not pro-sell of real estate when things are tough, depending on where the property is, those could be better vehicles for increase of investment over time. I believe in small business families as owners of real estate. I prefer this to PE investments due to potential negative effects of big company interests on communities. I do think they need to define what is the number each partner needs to earn and contribute to ease the mental, emotional and financial burden. But beating up on folks and other people’s marriages online does not add to the psychological safety those who participate publicly. Their sharing is a value add, and seeing the criticisms here are why most people keep their marital and financial problems private. For many couples getting to a shared vision is tough. Making sure before marriage both people want the same things is not always realistic. People change. Beliefs can be uncovered much later. It is not cut and dry.
Ramit you were in your DUFFLE this episode. I think you do a good job trying to get her to identify some of the things in regards to patriarchy and gender roles.
Yeah this sounds exactly like my parents (who ended up divorcing after 22 years). My mom was a high earning accountant & my dad was a blue collar worker making $50k. He also had a lot of hobbies & side projects. It was never good enough for my mom. Good luck to this couple because this mindset will lead down a rough path.
Probably because your mom could only do what she had to do while your dad got to do what he wanted to do. Is it possible that your dad spent most of his money on those hobbies and side projects while your mom had to foot the bill on the household necessities? So much so that her hobbies and side projects had to take a backseat? If so I wouldn’t view that as never being happy but moreso someone who wanted more for themselves.
@@tamarataylor7122 Possibly but from the looks of how things are today, she probably didn't know how to develop good hobbies or have small bits of fun. If he was making $50k he could and most likely was paying half the bills.
It really is interesting how I’m hearing more stories about women who make a lot of money and want their husbands to make more (even if they are doing well career wise); yet, if the roles are reversed, you don’t hear the men asking that of their wives. It just seems weird to me to not expect women to step up financially, but we expect it constantly from men. These arbitrary roles were set by the culture we live in; men and women have filled many different roles in society throughout history around the world. Wonder how and why we created these roles for the sexes in our current culture.
It’s important to remember that women are also indoctrinated into the patriarchy. 😢 my older sister makes almost $200k but her husband makes only $100k, but will receive a full pension at age 45 and she’s still unhappy. I appreciate Ramit for bringing this dynamic on the show from the beginning.
Biology. Women have children. Children are risky and expensive. Man needs to be big and strong and provide resources to ensure survival. If the woman makes more it triggers instinctual survival fears. Even if it is objectively an unfounded concern the feeling still exists in most women. It’s part of the reason men make more money; it’s built into our DNA to produce because men that don’t produce don’t get to reproduce. The irony is that feminism promoted equality and women making as much of not more than men but then when they succeed they still want a man that makes more than them 🤪🤯.
You are late to the party. For the last 50 years, women have entered the workforce in droves and continue to raise their incomes. Whether single or married the economics of housing and the fixed costs of living have required that women step up as earners. This why conversations like the one above are possible in 2024. The world did and does expect us to be earners and most of us are.
There have been a few episodes where the man wanted the woman to make more money. I've also seen episodes where the women make more and are very content with that
I just can't shake the feeling that Annie is not being genuine. I think she has expectations that were left unsaid, which were hidden behind the nervous laughs. She doesn't actually want a fair split... I think she would prefer if the husband was making more money as well as doing all the rental upkeep, childcare, and business. She knows she can't say this out loud because it would appear unfair.
There was a lot that I really appreciated in this episode, but I was a little confused about one aspect of this. The host’s projection of 3 mil - 9 mil in savings/investments for retirement age is mostly based on the assumption that the wife continues working as she does now and being a high earner. What if she doesn’t, what if she gets sick as she mentioned, can the family survive on the husband’s 3,000 a month income? That would be troubling me too, if i didn’t feel like my husband can take care of us if something were to go wrong with my health/earning ability, and I’m sure the same goes vice versa.
This episode was perfectly diagnosed and counseled by Ramit. I hope they are able to really reflect on his feedback and make changes. They'd be so much happier.
Whoa this was tough to watch… I saw a lot of myself in Annie. And that’s kinda scary. I don’t have a spouse but I am in a relationship I would like to see grow, and I don’t want to treat him the way she’s treating Emory… Step 1… start dreaming bigger
Great conversations. Really enlightening how much work their properties were and letting them figure out what's the best use of their time and money, and that they'll be comfortable in retirement without relying on the rental income.
Since she is not doing the on the ground maintenance on the property, sounds like she doesn't realize the AMOUNT of time/energy properties require...🏡 Annie is missing the point. They could sell at least one of the properties, pay off all the debt, invest more and allow for Emory to continue building a business. I like how Emory called out minimizing to reset. Since I am also a Filipina, it is the cultural fixation on constant "scarcity." 🤦🏽♀️
Wild but all too common to see someone holding onto something that doesn't serve them just so they can have control over it (the rental property) -- instead of letting that day to day control go (investing in the stock market), and allowing room for much more freedom in their life and partnership. I hope they sold the properties and were able to reinvest that time and energy back into their life.
Something isn't highly uncorrelated. It can be highly correlated or even highly negatively correlated. But if it is uncorrelated it is just uncorrelated
Really enjoyed this episode, shows how hard it is to let go of something you believe in even when its causing you pain. Reading the comments i think they are extremely unfair on Annie. This podcast is there to help the couples and from the outros i really feel like this conversation helped them move forward together.
My step-dad was a doctor, a total workaholic. He could not relax to enjoy time as a family (four daughters/blended family) nor did he seem to see the value in doing things for the sake of fun. Work and productivity consumed him. Overtime this has left almost no goodwill for him in my mom - they don't seem to take much real joy in each other, their marriage is hanging on by a string, and they are living in separate houses, despite outwardly professing that everything is fine. His lack of respect and effort with my mom was noticed by my three sisters and me, even as tiny kids. Children are perceptive. Sure, he had control - no one had any freedom/did anything without his permission, even my mom. But he had control and also sucked the joy out of what could have been a very happy childhood. Today, my mom and sisters and I are doing our best to live life to the fullest, but he is being left in the dust, still working. Annie if you are not careful, this is your future
Its just so frustrating to listen to this conversation. Emory can't get momentum going with the rental and being the designated parent. She held on so tight to the idea of the property ownership that she couldn't see the impact on his business. I'm glad they came to the "right" conclusion, and I hope they keep the conversation going.
She has some crazy unrealistic expectations. She wanted Emery to be property manager/maintenance to multiple properties, take care of the kids and household, and earn a high salary. Taylor Swift tickets are hundreds of dollars but she complains about the $5 beer. WILD!
Kudos to Ramit for shining a light thay the rental properties were the biggest issue. Poor guy, he was caught in a catch 22 "make more money, but be a property manager also!"
I truly feel for these two. The balance of probability suggests that marriages where the husband earns significantly less than the wife tend to be unhappy. We can put as much spin on it, contort the context, or intellectually rationalize it for the sake of modernity or any other reason, but this is often the case around us. Sure, we can cite exceptions to the rule, but couples in this situation will have to work even harder than most.
Great advice on the AirBnB home Ramit! They didn't realize the issue was their "Asset". They could sell and buy a newer, less stressful asset (home); recycle the equity into another asset.
00:00 Download the Conscious Spending Plan so you can use your money GUILT-FREE: iwt.com/csp-youtube
Please remember: These are real people who had the courage to come on my podcast and ask for help. Would you be willing to come on this podcast and share every detail of your financial life? Feel free to leave comments based on what you think, but remember that we are here to help in a supportive way, not to demean and criticize.
Can you please do a CSP for military veteran couple with retirement and disability income along with earned employment income
I used the CSP but struggle because I am on a never ending sabbatical so I pull from investments every month. I don’t have an income in a sense so I am not sure if I am doing it right. I apply what I pull from investments as net income. I may be overthinking it.
This makes me so excited for your new couples book. Asking each other the hard questions and moving forward!
Budgeting 2000 USD for travelling to Europe for 10 days 😂😂😂😂
My dad had a stressful government job & my mom started selling real estate (back in 70s). They also invested in multiple rental properties. My dad would spend every weekend messing with the properties. He was stressed, overweight & had not had a vacation in years. One day, I asked him why are you doing this? It was to leave my brother & I the all these properties when they died. I told him flat out I didn't want any of it, we would prefer our parents to be alive and while I had been to europe twice already (in my 20s) he and my mom had never been anywhere. He just looked at me astonished. Soon after, they sold the most troublesome properties and started taking several great vacations a year even into their early 80s. They traveled all over the world. They kept a couple really good properties with a manager, they invested well, they were able to help us out when we really needed financial help as adults. They lived into their 90s. Sometimes a mindshift changes everything.
Glad they got out from underneath that and actually enjoyed a rich life.
That is awesome you were able to help them see it.
What a great story. Fair play.
This is a great story. I’m glad your father listened to your response and focused on themselves first.
I love this. That perspective improved their lives.
This guy does a lot of work that is not being acknowledged:
- Manages the rental and up keep
- Takes care of the kids
- Deals with the issues of rentals and they want more
Gender roles are in play here. Imagine if the roles were reversed and the man said the woman wasn't doing enough. There is a real cost to the hidden, unpaid work that people do in a relationship and a family.
The kids are in daycare...so for her, he isn't taking care of the kids. So her interpretation is that he is doing a bit more, but only because she works fulltime.
@@tswinton8185yes. But kids get sick, they need ferrying to sports and activities..they need to buy things and spend time with them. Dinners need to be made etc... those are invisible work that a person does for the family.
She wants him to get a better paid job. But that better paying job will demand more of your time and will be inflexible to family needs.
She acknowledged all of that. But she wants him to also make money.
@@tswinton8185Kids being in daycare is only a fraction of parenting. What we don't know is:
- who is doing the morning routine to prep the kids for daycare (bathing, feeding, clothing, reading, driving, etc.)?
- who is doing the evening routine? Possibly even the afternoon routine, depending on when daycare ends?
- who is taking care of the kids when on days the kids are sick or federal/state holidays?
- who is primarily supporting the kids during the weekends?
That's just one area of unrecognized (or devalued) labor of parenting, let alone the associated housekeeping work.
Maybe they share it relatively equally. Maybe not. We can't and shouldn't say that. What we can say is that "the kids are in daycare" is insufficient evidence for parity in parenting. I suspect Emory is doing more and not being as recognized as he could be. That's been a problem for many women for basically ever, but when gender roles are changed and the man is not "earning" enough, then it presents another unique challenge.
He may be doing a bit more, but he may also be doing hours more, each day, that combine with his rental property management, his other part-time job, and possibly (we don't know) housekeeping work that is related to, but different from parenting duties.
@@tswinton8185one kid in daycare.
She sounds like she has so much resentment about her husband's work or lack of it from her perspective. It bleeds through everything she says. It seems to affect everything in their life and marriage. It seems like such a hard marriage to be in. I feel sad for them.
Dude is a property manager for 3 air B&B's and a rental plus does majority of the child rearing.
Did you watch until the end?
@@GTC7702a qa
18 years is a long time put put up with this bs. On Dateline, in a relationship like this, ends in murder at about 11 years!
@@gardencookeat22lol
Guys, we get this podcast for free. Ads are annoying but they help keep this show free for us. I would gladly pay for this content but I love that he keeps this free for everyone to enjoy.
@@jazinc I think they should remove the ads / have a different version for TH-cam Premium users.
@@michellegreen1072 Can't you just fast forward through them? He puts in a progress bar making it really convenient to do so.
I think the issue others have is that we pay for TH-cam Premium and are told videos would now be ad free, yet Ramit is placing ads every two minutes of the video..
@@Devin.1993lol, don’t watch the video then Karen, such a spoiled snob
@@Devin.1993just skip them. When you pay for YT premium that goes to YT and not the creator.
I wish Ramit would’ve called her out more on this specific statement she repeated repetitively about “if Emory would get a job”. He does have a job. It’s belittling and condescending for her to continue to say that. He makes 3k a month which is not as much as her. But it is a job.
Ramit actually belittled him as well saying an adult shouldn’t be making what he’s making. Ouch! If they were struggling I would agree but clearly they’re not. This was tough to watch.
Tough and very very annoying it seen like she just wanted to be on the episode
@@stevenmercado6666 you're not wrong, seemed like she wanted validation and a struggle session to "whip him into shape".
She wants him to have an impressive white collar W-2 job that can be easily signaled to her friends--or whatever that brings a lot of money. At the same time, she wants him to have time to date and have all these cool properties. A solid career man with an entrepreneurial itch.
I've had a busy full-time job and a successful side business (using Ramit's course) for years. It's quite possible if you're single and focused, but I can also say that having two+ jobs isn't for everyone. You don't have time to properly build a relationship, have kids, or simply have free time away from work.
The money issue is a good scapegoat and distraction but not the full picture.
Internally, she is conflicted. She is attached to him but has resentment toward how things turned out now that she's the main breadwinner. She could have had any man she wanted in her 20s and 30s. But if she was going to be stuck with him, she'd want him to be at least equally rich as her. She didn't get to date, and now she's fully in her masculine.
All the money she has now doesn't matter at this point. You can go to a resort with all the food and excess you want, but it's meaningless if the person you're with isn't making you feel fulfilled. As you become self-sufficient, your standards creep up, which is a rough outcome for people who want to have it all. You suffer from success.
From the context I inferred that she meant “get a job” as opposed to being self-employed. It seemed that the (perceived) reliability of employment was important to her and the variability of income from self-employment was stressful for her.
So much focus on optimizing and contributing. It’s preventing them from being able to enjoy all of the blessings they ALREADY HAVE.
If you want to have a happy life : stop comparing to your “friends, neighbors, colleagues…etc”
Lawn is greener on the other side
Yah… I think she is very worried about how other people view them.
“Comparison is the thief of joy.” However, there is something to be learned from others so you can’t completely be blind to the lives and financial journeys of others.
Comparison is the thief of joy
Especially when it comes to finances!
You have no idea if your friends and neighbors are living their lives saddled with credit card debt or whatever else.
I have coworkers (some of whom make half of what I make, based on local averages for that position) who take vacations all the time. I have a really good rent situation and good earnings so I know they're putting those trips on a credit card.
If I judged my life against theirs purely on what they do, it would appear I'm missing out big time, but it's never that simple.
“If the grass is greener on your neighbors lawn, water your lawn!”
It’s amazing how so much of this comes down to communication and empathy.
I’ve gone from being the higher income earner to the much lower one who takes on more of the responsibilities around the house. It’s tough on the ego and the self worth. You need a supportive partner to get through that and realize that it’s about contributing to your joint rich life. Your value is not equal to your pay
Excellent comment. I hope everyone reads the last sentence
Exactly! Imagine how much money his saving them by providing child care, property management, cleaning service, ect.
The resentment she feels is concerning. Glad they're talking to Ramit
The money issues are a symptom. The real issue is much deeper. I would love to be wrong, and see a follow up in a year.
@@Bum_HipI wouldn't be surprised if it ends in divorce. And good for him, honestly.
Can we get the couples specific demographics in the intro again; Age, kids, married etc. Don't particularly care about the intro music good or bad but the brief demographics after the title screen are what helped set how relatable this couple is to our current scenario. Overall though love what you do Ramit keep it going!
She’s 39, he’s 43 Ramit stated it very clearly. Kids are in daycare and school so you could guess that would be any age range from 4-10
Good suggestion. We'll add more demographic info to the intro. Thank you for watching
Thank you, @ramitsethi! I also like to know geographical area because it matters a lot. $200k in the Midwest goes a lot further than in the Northeast, so it gives further context
Yes! The black screen with white text containing biographical info, either at the beginning of the episode, or before you get into the CSP (where it used to be) is great!
46:00 I love how Ramit is adressing the real problem and confronting them in such a nice manner. It's very insightful. 🥰
lui è davvero grande
My wife makes 3 times as much as her and she appreciates everything I do with our investments, rentals, and kids. Without me she wouldn’t have that career. It’s a team effort and she tells me how much she appreciates it. We have rentals and airbnbs and I hire management companies for those I don’t care to manage myself.
I think the difference is he has been inconsistent. His income is inconsistent. His work is inconsistent. He is making less than $50,000 a year. If she loses her job they are both out of luck.
@@stanleyypoon mainly because she likely doesn't see it as a team, but rather he's on her team, and she's the franchise owner.
@@saeedhossain6099 that’s not a fair assumption. She’s been holding them up nearly the entire relationship giving him the time and space to work on his dreams. Someone who isn’t a team player would have left him a long time ago. It gets heavy and exhausting. Especially when you don’t WANT to be the breadwinner. I feel bad that he feels bad but her feelings are her feelings.
@@cm88__ny she knows what she is getting out of him and the value it provides, she doesn't want to acknowledge it and by acting as if the only value is money, it she can use it as a cuggle to claim the high ground. his consistent work is being on call to deal with problems she bought in order to do the airBNB, he's consistent because he's the primary caregiver to their kids, he's consistent because he's the one picking up all the household work so she can focus on her job, he's consistent in planning and executing on the vacation she wants and then has to take her complaints about his beer. if you've ever considered the phrase "unpaid labour" but don't apply it to his case, that sad.
his income inconsistency is the cost of him picking up all the other valuable but non monetary dimensions of their life.
Also, she doesn’t want to be a breadwinner.
This guy is a saint. One spouse only values a 'good paying desk job' while the other is doing so much work that would be equivalent to tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars a year if hired out. This woman is definitely trying to reach for her rich life, but she forgets she has a husband and its their rich life not just hers.
Are you describing an average American wife who also works full time?
Yeah I have the same impression of her. All she seems to care about is more money more money so she can show it off to people. The husband wants to be able to remove the extras of their life so he can have the extra time to bring in more. He doesn't have the time since he is the majority parent raising the kids and the property manager of all their properties. It's too much for him to handle and he is drowning and she only cares about more money. If the roles were reversed, everyone would be screaming at the man for saying what this woman is saying
He’s a leech and a loser. She needs to dump him and find a real man.
How does he even call himself a “stay-at-home-dad” when they are paying for full-time daycare?
@Aftermath-o4f This man is doing the traditional female role. Many women, unfortunately, will work full-time and then come home and be a housewife and primary caregiver, while their husband doesn't do as much. A lot of time, this "women's work" is not valued because it is unpaid and expected to be done by the person who earns less, which used to primarily be the woman.
Glad you called out the hypocrisy of this situation around minute 40!!
I’m empathize with Annie - being the sole breadwinner can feel isolating and burdensome. But I felt that this conversation really punished Emery for pointing out all the manual labor he does and how getting a full time job will be cancelled out by the money they would have to pay. Ramit immediately points out that “he can’t have it all” when he mentions this - but it’s Annie that doesn’t seem to see this. Annie is the dreamer that wants the rentals, the vacations, and a full dual income. Notice how the 50k salary for Emery is commented as a “good starting point”, continuously changing the goal post and needing him to bring in 100k. There isn’t a lot any talk about the actual money needed to live their rich life - it’s just about feeling “fair”
She resents him, plain and simple.
@@angelarogerson6861 She doesn't love him, she loves what he can do for her.
Many men are the sole breadwinner and shoulder that responsibility.
@@angelarogerson6861 she does, because she sees him as a task mule, not a partner.
Did you notice when it was "$50K/year" transformed into "$50K/year NET" and again ($50K NET by the end of this year" (there's only 5 - 6 months left depending on when this was recorded)? Talk about moving the goal post! They haven't actually sold the properties yet, so when is husband's time going to be freed up to earn more income?
So she wants him to take care of the rentals, the home, the children, and earn as much as she does. Absolutely not possible. She’s unrealistic and resentful.
Why ? Women do it all the time . Also - the kids are in daycare .
The wife seems to be minimizing the amount of labor he’s already doing. Only so many hours in a day no matter the gender.
@@christinaslate1865. The rentals do take time and commitment. If the 2 rentals only took 7 hours a week consistently, he could hold down a 50-100k job. But, the one house is in disrepair which causes him to drop everything and work 55 hours some weeks. They would have to hire a property manager to take over for him to go back to steady work. Or he could find a very flexible part time job to bring in more money but it probably would not be enough to make her happy.
Property management is unpredictable. 7 hours one week and 55 another. Yes, woman and men both work, have kids in day care, cook and clean. But my point is that he can’t just go find a steady 50-100k job and be available to manage those rentals. They would have to hire someone else to take over that job in his place.
@@christinaslate1865that does not make it right. Man or woman, it’s unfair, and quite mean, to expect your partner take care of home chores, manage rental properties, and earn as much as you do. That’s straight evil!
I earn less than my wife and sometimes I feel bad about it, but I'm very glad that she never puts it in my face.
Yeah it was borderline painful to listen to that dialogue. I’m off to tell my fiance how awesome he is and how much I appreciate his contributions to our relationship 🏃♀️
@@alwaysemilia It hopefully goes both ways! I always remind my wife how much I love and admire her too.
I do feel bad for Emery too. We can't know what was going through his head throughout the recording, home people are not very expressive, but he seemed dead inside the entire time, and I noticed that Ramit didn't give him much time to express himself, and even interrupted him a few times when he tried to talk. I wouldn't fault him for feeling dismissed.
Im sure she sees you are putting in work. I know my wife would be pissed if I was doing a job way below what I could be doing.
I think men miss it when they focus solely on money. You need to find out what makes your wife secured or feel secured. The road map has not been defined by him so it is easy to say she is focusing on money. I make way more than my wife but we both run the planning and money has never been an issue even when we never hard. We have been married for 19 yrs and have more than 3.0 now. Collective planning when we are calm and relaxed is key.
My wife earns twice as much as me literally! I have never given it a second thought, I am proud of her and she is proud of me, we support each other. Seeing this couple makes me appreciate my wife even more
His body language and expressions tells you everything. He seems pretty checked out and I can see why
“The more assets you have, the better”
I’ve seen lots of people with even high incomes get into trouble with that attitude. I knew a guy earning $250k a year who owned 6 houses but had to take a loan for living expenses. He was trying to spin too many plates at the same time.
I worked for a commercial building owner. In his early years, he owned 30 residential homes, which was a headache for him so he decided to sell them all. He then restarted and owned 4 shopping plazas. Less maintenance and more and longer rental leases.
My mantra is “the less stress you have, the better”. Sometimes having more income is a way to reduce stress. But often times, getting that income can produce more stress than it’s worth. I turned down the opportunity for rental property because I already have my hands full juggling my kids, hobbies, and career.
Assets are only real assets when you sell them. Until then, they are liabilities.
She needs to realize that index funds are just as much assets as houses. Houses have hassle factor, index funds do not.
@@williamryan6794 DING DING DING DING DING!
She's not approaching their marriage/finances as a team from this conversation, all she sees is that she makes more but doesn't seem interested in sharing that abundance. She doesn't have much capacity for empathy. It's a real problem when you can't empathize with your partner
She's a piece of work. I'll refrain from what I really would like to say about her.
She can’t empathize, it’s very sad to watch…
She is funding his entire lifestyle and trips so she is already sharing. Her issue is that she is fixated on these properties and not listening to his concerns about them, when her husband is clearly sick to death of them (rightfully) and the cost and effort to maintain them isn’t worth it. They would do better by selling them, using some of those funds to invest in his business that he enjoys and he can start contributing more doing something he loves then they can all be happy.
@@Aileenwasright the thing is they’re married, so I wouldn’t even call it “sharing”. She’s tossing him scraps and feels resentment about him not bringing a bigger plate to the table.
Yes! It feels like she's built up so much resentment that she can't access empathy in this situation. I think talking with Ramit was an excellent starting point/catalyst. I hope they do couple's therapy to help unpack this further!
Her husband is doing a LOT that she should value. I am the breadwinner in my relationship (I'm gemale, he's male) and I couldn't care less about that. I am just happy if I come home and the bed is made. Anything he can do to take tasks off my plate is appreciated.
What’s a gemale ? 😂
@@btowhidi_1713She meant femake
how long does it take to make the bed before you leave?
@awbq19892 How do you know her husband isn't still in bed when she leaves for work 🤔
I hope Annie takes time to read Farnoosh Torabi’s book “When She Makes More.” There are so many ways to contribute to a household when there are young kids. And literally hundreds of thousands of people (mostly women) had their jobs/businesses disrupted by school and daycare closures from the pandemic. It’s heartbreaking to see Annie characterize the very material disruption of a 2 week daycare closure as “excuses.” Most parents of young kids need either one parent or a nearby family member who has the flexibility to drop everything and attend to unexpected needs. Emery’s handling the properties and the caregiving work has enabled Annie to advance her career and earning power. If they paid someone $20/hr to do the work he’s been holding down, it would probably be $150,000/year worth of labor. I hope they can work through these dynamics with support. And I hope that emery at the very least is taking some of their *household* income and maxing out his Roth IRA in addition to having his own guilt free spending.
It’s a gender role thing for her .
@@paeragefor her, if it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. she doesn't care about the imputed value or replacement cost of farming out his labour, his time is hers to do with what she pleases becuse she makes more than him. she'd also be the kind of person who believes his money is the family money and her money is her money. there's no reading up on how to work your way out of a fundamental character trait (or flaw if you're feeling uncharitable).
@@saeedhossain6099yeah it sounds like she resents him for every dollar with this kind of person you need to hire someone and get your own bag otherwise nothing you do is valued
I feel for Emery... seems no matter what he does it will never be good enough. He's lambasted for not making more money, for this that and the other thing. And this to me feels like Annie is projecting her lack of "good enough" feelings onto Emery. I'm glad that they arrived at this by the end of the episode.
I agree with Emery that they need to declutter their lives. I also agree with him about the sunk cost fallacy with their property that needs a lot of work, that the "assets" no longer serve them. Cut the rental property losses, they already have a ton of debt/to manage re: the properties, the properties are not helping them and adding stress and tension to their lives. They already make a bunch of money.
She says she enjoys the gains and investments, but earlier she said the properties make them NO MONEY. She needs to get honest about whether or not she actually wants these things. Because Emery is VERY content to live a super simple, chill life. And that's possible for them now - but both need to have this vision/be on board for it.
Just finished:
Happy that they are going to get rid of at least one of the rental properties and are simplifying things. I hope that Emery is afforded the opportunity to relax and breathe because I get the impression that he's unable to do that with Annie... (I also hope that Annie does her work for her stuff so she doesn't continue to take it out on Emery, and herself.)
In my experience the person bringing less income but handles the tasks the other person can’t do because of time go undervalued. I lived this when we had our twins and I stayed at home, my ex berated me for being “lazy” even though I was handling the household, 2 preemie new born babies, 2 other children and everything else all by myself. Grateful I am self employed, divorced and doing well now.
Divorced with 4 kids sounds awful to me but glad you are managing it.
@@angelarogerson6861 Better to not be around the negative energy of a toxic partner and its one less person to be cleaning up after
It's really weird how people don't see the value of the stay at home person for some reason. Like do people not think about how fucked their house and family would be if no one was there to take care of it when you can't or don't even want to.
@@twlight9000 Maybe make that decision before 4 children are in the picture...choose wisely, treat kindly comes to mind.
@@Gxmwp It was disheartening to hear him say "I don't want to be a stay at home dad." Ummmmmm....OK.
The real issue is this is the SECOND couple he’s had on this month that went to Europe to see Taylor Swift.
IKR!!!
😂
Taylor drives the world economy
Fully grown adults 💀 so unfathomable
lol thought Swifties were teenagers
I was a involuntary landlord because I couldn’t sell my house after a move. It was an older house as well. I was stressed out for 11 years because of the surprise 3-7k fixes that constantly popped up and wiped out any gains from rental income. It’s a headache. I’m team sell the damn house.
You were stuck with a house for 11 years? Sounds like you loved it
Yes, every time I had the opportunity to keep a house and rent it out, I responded that that sounded like the 8th circle of hell, and I sold it. Good Lord, it's like people who say, I'll open a restaurant! How hard could it be!
It’s sold now, it took putting it on the market 3 times.
Congrats🥳
Most people would love to make over $200,000 a year. So many problems in this world. If they could just look at their situation from a distance they could look at it and say what in the world are we fighting about? We have it all!
I don’t think she has that ability tho… she couldn’t even imagine a world where she was in her husbands’ position, literally zero empathy for him.
@@cognitive-botanical-therapyeven when she did and was like I wouldn’t want to do anything. Then proceeds to basically say that that’s not OK for my husband to feel like that and he’s not doing enough.
🤦🏼♂️
Nailed it. @@cognitive-botanical-therapy
Imagine genders reversed people would call out the misogyny.
Bingo. The truth is this scenario happens the inverse way more
I think that is the point he was trying to lead her to.
That was rough. I commend them both for going through this publicly.
Maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe I am just misreading it. But it seems that he will never be enough for her. In her head, that person doesn't exist. She doesn't really consider him, his wants, and his needs. But also it could be the Filipino upbringing. My in-laws are Filipino and they feel very similarly about money. They keep everything they buy even if they have to spend thousands of dollars to keep them.
People for who it is never enough tend to have three common attributes:
- They are "unhappy" and don't know why
- They don't know what they want and what it costs
- They don't realize that the first two points are true
If I am unhappy and don't know what I want, one easy way to deal with it is to demand more. Maybe "more" will make me happy (It usually does not). It also has to be somebody else's fault; it would be terrible to realize that part of the problems are the result of things I wanted. If you want to see this effect on a larger scale, you can look at many political movements (at the end of the day, most political positions are emotions and personality traits expressed on a larger scale): People are unhappy but cannot really articulate why, but the solution has to be whatever political demand which conveniently implies that the current situation is definitely not partially caused by us.
Ramit literally asked her to roleplay and she couldn’t even comprehend what being in her husband’s position would be like - she had never thought about it. This was brutal to witness. I’ve watched at least 5 sets of these couples and found the relationship dynamics in this one to be by far the most concerning.
I hope they figure it out but there seemed to be problems well beyond money on display here.
Love when Tuesday comes around . I’ve been watching these therapy like episodes for the last three weeks . Definitely learned how to ask better questions . Ramit your a Genius for this
I don't really understand how the wife doesn't even really aknowledge all the day to day hassles the husband takes off her plate. Property management and child care are both full time jobs.
I think she sees that as the trade off for not making enough money, so it “doesn’t count”.
The kids are in daycare she said.
The kids are in daycare. I do wonder what he does all day…
@@o0usf0ocooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, kids’ activities, plus his job and managing the airbnbs…. Is it really that difficult to think beyond “man should make money otherwise useless”??
Kids are in daycare
Unfortunately I'm not sure this couple even knows what they want. They're a bit all over the place. The only thing I know for sure is they're unhappy with how things stand.
Ramit, I enjoy your videos a lot, and I find them super insightful. It made me have a conversation with my SO and we have improved our financial life by a lot.
However it was painful for me to watch this episode. 80% of the conversation was about the wife's perspective 10% on common perspective and 10% ads.
I got the feeling the husband gives up his dreams every day by contributing more to their house chores, working on their rental properties. In exchange his wife belittles his effort and demands him to earn more. Without telling how her can take over some of the work at home or at the rental places so he can focus on his business.
My observation might be absolutely incorrect as we did not hear his to talk much. Maybe it is the cuts, but 50% of the time you cut him off after 2 sentences.
Still a great episode to listen.
I completely agree with your observation. When you're starting a business it takes a lot of work. Then he's got jobs lined up, and has to cancel all those jobs to take care of her rental properties he doesn't want, or why can't she take some time to help with the kids, take turns.
I love his saying that "he wants to de-clutter their life." What a great assertive way to say, I need this balanced out, we''re in a money pit with the property that takes away the time I could be using to turn my business into something way more profitable. I also love when Ramit brings out the craziness of wanting him to make more money to spend on rental properties they don't even need, and are in fact hurting them. Ramit hit it spot on. Take away the properties would resolve a lot of the arguments, and issues with money would ease up!
I see how a lot of his side isn't brought out. If he had the time to spend on his business, how much more income would he be able to contribute? She resents his "low-paying business" yet expects him to handle everything that would take someone away from work, to the point of canceling all the jobs he had lined up (contributing income).
Happy to see in the follow up videos they are doing exactly that~way to go to both of them for making uncomfortable change, to get a much better quality of life!
I felt like by Ramit focusing on her, it was actually helping the husband because he helped her to breakdown how she’s treating him & why. The husband was trying to tell her, but she wasn’t hearing it nor was he able to interpret it in a way she’d compute.
Right, perhaps they need a part time nanny and just 1 property with a property manager, just a different dynamic from what they've done so far and see if it works because they are just not happy and money is not worth the build up of resentment
@@TheThinkingBar They said the kids are in daycare. I don't know why they wouldn't hire a property manager and just normal rent. Arbnb may make more money, but the property managers charge 50% compared to the normal 10% most property managers get. I understand her, she wants at least some equality in their finances and he's not doing enough to do that. He wants a job he likes and pursues that, but no one asked her if she loves her job. She may not like it, but it pays the bills, which is what she wants from him. Not everyone gets to do their dream job, sometimes you just have to work.
Yah but Ramit has to be careful here. She has a cluster B personality disorder and he knows that, so he needs to be careful how he approaches her. I hope she gets professional help, but not optimistic.
Ramit went through their conscious spending plan too quickly! If you look closer, you will notice that Annie pays for literally everything and Emery’s 3k monthly goes directly to his guilt free spending. She covers all the fixed costs, all the investments and all the savings. She implies she would like to have an option not to work as hard but she can’t and that’s the root of her resentment
Bingo! I was wondering if I was watching a different episode based off of these comments. Emery is free to dream and focus on what he wants to focus on although it is costing the household money instead of bringing it in. Emery is claiming he can’t focus on his dream because of the distractions, needing to play property management and when there’s a disruption in childcare - neither of those things are taking up the same 40+ hours that Annie is spending on working. She wants a taste of his freedom.
Yes, but... Ramit is considering their household income as combined (as with many other couples). This isn't the first nor the last case of one partner being the primary earner and therefore covering most of or all the fixed costs! This doesn't have to mean resentment. The situation of having a partner with a starting/struggling business is akin to be married with someone studying. Are you happy to support them or do you hate it? They have enough money probably even if she takes a pay cut. It seems to me she just wants him to make more for the sake of it and/or just doesn't trust his business will ever take off...
I so agree with you on this. He spends everything he makes and his gross was equal to his net.
I appreciate the deep dive your channel has been taking recently into relationships where women are the primary financial contributor. Genuine, open conversations around money, unpaid labor, and gender role expectations are key to solidifying compatibility and identifying relationship blind spots. Money problems arent always about money. I hope they can work through their challenges and thank them for sharing.
Yet another episode with the wife as the high earner and then resenting her husband (who in this situation does a lot of the unpaid labour).
After seeing those numbers, I would get rid of those rentals so fast 💨
I literally started shouting "SELL THE DAMN HOUSE" at the screen! I hope Ramit's framing helps her see that "the more assets the better" is something she can unlearn to ultimately become happier
They fell into the "passive income" trap. Rental property is NOT passive income. Just buy REITs if you want real estate income.
Ramit, thank you so much for doing these videos. They help me realize how good I have it with my wife and how to avoid getting into tough situations with my wife.
My pleasure!
Thank you for sharing this story. This to me is a great example of a couple who is not living a rich life despite being objectively and financially rich for their age. I hope they can figure things out soon and enjoy their day-to-day life together.
OMG!! I am Annie... with a huge difference that at my household we have similar incomes, which makes it even worse. This was eye opening.
Brilliant episode as it shows a very difficult family situation, rooted in differences in values/perspectives over money, and not actually over not having enough money. I really liked the summary of how they will move forward in the future - especially setting of boundaries and understanding of each other.
It’s interesting watching this from where I’m currently at in life. My dad died less than a month ago at 62 from stage iv cancer (died 3 days after his birthday). He was diagnosed five weeks before his death-he hadn’t had any symptoms before suddenly having all of them. He’d retired at 56 and my parents have plenty of money. I was honestly surprised by how little his death changed my perspective on money and, honestly, life. I hear it being such a transformative experience for people, and I expected a bit more of that feeling. It did change some things but more in centering/confirming what I’d arrived at, with a few tweaks. Through ramit’s work, therapy, and just spending hours interrogating my thoughts/beliefs (and thinking a lot about death, tbh), I’d arrived at working towards a balance in everything but mostly in the art of letting go. For example of not spending beyond my means but also acknowledging I could live a long time and will subsequently plan for that possibility. That extends to everything else in my life (showing up for people, generosity, exercise, eating, etc). I do wish my dad had really gotten to enjoy spending his money. However, I mostly hope he found what he gave up to make that money worth it. Tbh, I’m not so sure he did.
When I see this couple, I just hope they really see what money costs. Money isn’t free. My dad spent most of his life afraid and I think trying to earn his right to exist or have self worth partially through money m. They manually paid credit cards and they have millions in retirement. Their generosity would be high, then all of sudden plummet (creating a lot of instability as a kid and even now as an adult child). At some point, you just have to make decisions, set up a system, trust you were intentional and smart, step back and hope it works out (while checking in at times). At some point, it either works or it doesn’t. My parents weren’t really able to do that and neither were/are especially happy and it was hard to spend lots of time with them, considering these issues affect more than money.
This is obviously a ramble. I just want to encourage people to really think about their death and what trade offs they want to make.
I am so happy to see this episode. Gender role is such a big issue in many couple. I for one have been in that situation. I earn the high income in the family while my husband is still finishing his masters. In the beginning, it was definitely a struggle to understand. I constantly look at our spreadsheet and complain complain... But at some point we had to pause and sit down to have a one on one conversation, discussed every financial details and goals we have. It definitely changed our views. We were able to adjust our budget to things we ENJOY and love like going on hikes, camping and stop putting money on things that are causing us unhappiness. I also see how hard he works to get his masters, and if the roles were switched, I for sure would like a supportive husband too. I have been less anal about the finance, while we both make sure we are living within our budget. This couple need some guidance. I was HER before. I am also a filipina woman living in california, earning a high income. And knowing our culture, our parents rely on us especially when they get older. these are things you work with your partner, talk about it, and make sure you both have a clear idea of each others goals and compromise. Thank you Ramit for sharing these couples stories
Great show, love that you are able to meet with the couples and they get to see a different perspective. I’m glad they finally saw the stress those properties were bringing, and they will be a better partnership hopefully down the road.
Money isn't the problem. The lack of respect she has for her husband is huge. Unless he made 75%or more of her income she'll never feel he contributes enough.
Annie is afraid to dream. I totally understand why. It’s heartbreaking to watch your parents decline and struggle. Grief counseling or therapy in general can help you understand and sort out what thoughts and feelings are serving you and which to let go. My bestie does a very similar thing to her husband. It will never be enough. Thank you Annie and Emory for your courage to bare all.❤❤
Wow, this is one of the best ones yet - so many insights from Ramit! I'm surprised this doesn't have 5x the views.
Girl is "saving" by buying stocks and blames her money anxiety on the guy... blegh, this feels so wrong
Saving by buying stocks, but then unwilling to sell if/when needed... when Ramit suggested to sell and put that money in an actual savings account her heart just about stopped!
I'm no expert, one thing I do know is that the stock market is not the place for savings you want to use within a year. It feels risky for a 5-year planned expense. 10+ years is ok, but I start twitching at years 8 and 9... 😂
She blames it to the $5 beer. 🙄 He deserves a beer on vacation.
Putting savings into stocks is fine as long as you can mentally it like a savings account. But most people can’t do that. They have anxiety needing to sell stocks to use as the savings account it’s supposed to be
I love how Ramit brings up the big picture - they’re financially fine. He brings up the emotions - they’re stressing out about the small things.
Such an eye opening discussion
I found it telling that the rich life was about downsizing and moving to the Philippines. She also mentioned moving off the grid.
Then later when Ramit asked what would they do with an extra $50k net and their responses were about buying a new car, updating the house, etc. None of their responses had anything to do with downsizing and decluttering their lives.
They have an amazing opportunity and I hope they can come together and have the rich life they want.
An accountant that doesn't know where the money is going. I see the problem.
Why doesn't the husband be a stay at home dad. Save on daycare and much better for the kids. It would be much easier to manage too. They ultimately need a marriage counselor. She has a lot of resentment towards him even though they are brining lots of money home.
Time is precious. Emery needs charge hours of labors to maintain their properties and include to his income.
It is almost always wife whose income is higher complain about husband lower income. If the gender is flipped, husband wouldn't complain. I feel so bad for men, so much higher expectations as men.
IWTYTBR Overarching Spoiler: Generally, female spouses are unhappy when they earn more than their male spouses, however, they frequently are unwilling to be transparent about that.
Women don’t get any high fives for being great providers they way men do (because men are fulfilling their societal expectation of them). In fact, higher-earning women often have to avoid talking about it around friends, family and their lower-earning spouse meaning that their contribution can’t be recognized in the way it would be for a male higher-earning spouse. Resentment breeds and is subverted into surprising thought patterns like Annie’s. Misogyny hurts everyone.
Lol I wish we could call out female hypocrisy without being crucified. I'm BIG on gender equality and am a feminist - if we really are striving for equality, why is women belittling/disrespecting their lower-earning male partners so normalized and not an acknowledged problem? The women on here (and a lot of women I know) are so quick to point out the flaws in men but can't see their own. To constantly hold your higher income over your partner's head is borderline abusive.
As a short term rental operator of many homes, I empathize with you. When we realized how to effectively delegate to our teams and other tasks, it CHNAGED THE GAME for us being able to spend time on more high-level revenue generating tasks boosting the business overall.
This was such a great episode, I am glad that they are both able to come to a consensus on the way forward. At the end of the day communication and a shared vision of the future are what is most important, most everything else falls into place after that.
Awww man I’m getting killed in these comments 😅. Maybe I didn’t reiterate how much I appreciate what Emery does. This was almost a 4 hour interview…Emery did talk a lot more during 😅. I think there’s also confusion how we split other things: kid rearing (60/40), rentals (50/50 he does physical labor, I do admin labor), household chores (70/30). I swear I do things outside of work to help with the household 😆. Also the sister in law I mentioned just passed away last night so comments have been overwhelming. I swear I’m still a person with feelings and can read all the comments.
Don't expect Emery to make any more money as long as you'd rather have a rental property than more stocks that would take care of themselves.
You have my sympathies when it comes to your sister-in-law, but it also was painful to see the lack of empathy that you showed Emery during this podcast. It felt like you had no desire to see things from his perspective when it comes to his career, and your stubbornness during the podcast to hold onto the properties is killing any opportunity for him to make more money with his business.
I’m glad in the end, you chose to get rid of the property that was causing issues, but there’s more to a marriage than dealing with money. Supporting each other’s dreams is a big part of it as well. I hope you are able to improve in that department and let go a little when it comes to accumulating assets.
After all, which do you want, a loving husband by your side when it’s time for you to go or a bunch of assets that caused a lot of angst?
I hope you are choosing the former going forward.
@@Trix897easy to be a keyboard warrior. Want to support a grown adult for 18 years to pursue his dreams? I have. When could I pursue mine? Edit doesn’t show that “majority” means 60/40…that means I still do almost half the household and child rearing and rental management…he mainly does maintenance. They cut a lot of stuff that was said.
@@user-cw7lm4vo2j if gender roles were flipped, nobody would have an issue. Traditional gender roles of the male bread winner are over and done.
Annie needs to be more loving and supportive. There's more to marriage than just money like being respectful and grateful for what each person contributes to the relationship. Stressing over a $5 beer is really sad to see.
Asians can be ruthless when it comes to money lol
How can you be an "optimizer" without knowing the numbers? The whole point of optimization is to get the numbers as high (or low) as possible. There is no way this is optimization.
He called her an optimiser and I agree. She could optimise harder of course, but the mere fact she's using stocks as savings is a stupid mistake that only an optimiser-type would commit.
Many Optimizers don't know their numbers. They simply optimize the wrong things, typically pointless minutiae that make them feel in control but actually don't do anything. This is extremely common!
@@ramitsethiI feel called out. 😂 When I want to lose myself in my spreadsheets (eases my anxiety) , I try to ask myself how that's going to help me. Answer is it won't now that I've automated everything. Still do it though.
@@ramitsethi I defer to your superior knowledge and experience. As an engineer, one of the first things they teach you is you can’t optimize (improve) something if you don’t measure it first. I like to optimize (and automate) my finances, not sure I like being lumped in with this behavior. 🤔😅
She wants to optimize her man, by controlling him.
I'd love to have seen a P&L of the rental properties. As an accountant part of me wonders if they are mixing personal and business too much with that and it's not being treated as a separate entity enough.
First time I 100% agreed with the recommendation. Great job this week to all three of you!
1:00:00 nothing she said in the first hour made me think that she plans to "die with zero".
Yes that really came out of nowhere. I sympathize as someone who also has a parent with a terminal illness well before age 90, but that doesn't seem to be changing either Annie's behavior -- or mine -- in the direction of wanting to "spend it all now" because you may not have all the years to use it after your retire. It seems like that's a common & understandable "money story" but I don't see how it actually applies to Annie's outlook or behavior, with her "optimizing" by keeping the houses as "assets" for the future or using stocks as "savings" that theoretically could go to vacation but she doesn't actually want to cash out.
@@marykaitlynclark-joseph4192 it felt more like she subconsciously doesn’t want to spend it all, though she does voice having thoughts of wanting to enjoy living in the moment and doing more than just maximizing earnings at times. But I think the book may have shifted, perhaps even enhanced her thoughts and emotions about money into a “constant fear of not having enough” state. Like how she describes not being able to change her life and career or lose her current job. She wants to maximize her (earning) potential now before it’s too late.
How her husband is not earning “enough” according to her potential, but can live and spend frivolously on $5 beer with his lower income could be why she holds a lot of resentment.
I think I learn a little bit of myself and alter my rich life when I listen to the couples you have a conversation about money. It's not the big ticket stuff but the small ones such as take a walk without worrying about tomorrow, buying an double scoop icecream for my youngest cousin....
I love this episode. Thank you Ramit.
Why there is not a value on his work maintaining the rental properties? The rental properties are a business and if it does not make any money why keep them?
Too bad there was so little time spent on her dad. Would be curious what her family upbringing around money was like. Did her mom stay at home, was money tight and dad always hustled + sacrificed?
From her rare emotional reaction when thinking about his health issue and her sadness at him not being able to spend what he worked for while healthy, perhaps there is something deeper which ties into her contempt* for Emory.
*Contempt is harsh but that's how Annie came across. I'm generally biased against the high earning partner when they treat the lower earned with disrespect- even when I agree that the lower earner could probably be doing more.
Hope for both their sakes and especially for their children that they can rebuild the respect. They've built a great financial foundation together, it's meaningless if they lose each other in the process.
He should have billed her for all the work he did on the properties. And childcare. Maybe that would put what he’s contributing into perspective.
They pay for childcare.
33:19 anything he does has to be challenged, yet when she wants to go to a Swift concert and he has to make it happen on a shoestring budget. sounds very coercive and controlling......
she wants on call service but doesn't want to pay the carry cost. imagine wanting to be able to call an ambulance, and then complain about the cost of the gas, totally disregarding the cost of keeping a crew and facilities working.
That last paragraph 100% on point!!!
Around the 50 minutes mark it all started to make sense. Her not being able to dream and wanting a perfect plan for the future reminded me so much of myself.
He is managing a million dollar worth of rental properties 😂 i feel like if he charges her for his work at market rate she will chill out on criticizing his contribution
I got the impression that he (Emery) is doing handyman type jobs while she does all the admin management. He wasn’t aware of the income/expenditure associated with the rentals, while she immediately said they were only breaking even. No judgement. But he is very very laid back over literally everything and she seems to be overcompensating and fed up. The episode was really good as in this case, Ramit’s facilitation to help them communicate better and balance their values over their finances was brilliant.
48:59 "Why are you doing this?" Because this is the way yhe marriage has worked (along with the kids) without having to dig deeper into the real issues. They need to talk to a therapist and hash out some stuff. I wish them both the absolute best.
Speaking from family and homeowner experience, if those friends appear to have their lives together while having kids they’re either lying or they’re getting help with either housework, kids or both.
They have completely different mindsets on how life and money works.
I won’t be surprised if her parents are also involved in the pressure here.
Her mindset is more similar to many I’ve seen from southern and eastern Asia.
I hope they get on the same page. She can’t throw the rental properties there, ask him to take care of them, and do some work for the kids, and have a thriving business.
On the other hand he hasn’t been affirmative and communicative enough. Maybe earning less has created a power dynamic where he can’t express himself freely.
Big problems in this marriage, best of luck to them both.
Very well stated.
I fully agree about the property just sell it just sell it. It’s just too much mind space
Since she is an optimizer, the $ 1.000.000 net value of the rentals should make her $40.000-80.000, not 0...
@@HelloLudger I suspect that the net value she gave of $1,000,000 may be inaccurate. Or maybe it's accurate? They live in California, where old busted-up homes are easily worth more than that. I also believe that the home is actually not even hers yet, its her parent's family home. The home where she grew up in. That's why she doesn't want to sell it. There is sentimental value to it. I can also GUARANTEE that her family is DEEPLY involved with their finances too. Filipino culture. There's this thing where they are all in each other's business/lives to a much bigger extent than your average American family.
Fast forward through the intro 😊
people treat vacations as if they’re a necessity when it’s a luxury and a privilege lol
I wish more people understood this. There's such a privileged way of thinking. When we were getting out of debt, we did so many stay-cations in the area. The *felt* place was very similar. It was so fun and energizing and very low cost. We enjoyed the real peace of mind in all of that.
I highly empathize with being the HOH. I understand Annie’s frustration. I notice a lot of criticism of her but if it were reversed, I am not clear I would see this. I can see briefly from the CSP he is not contributing to fixed costs or savings, at all because his income is much lower. Half of their gross worth is in liability. Personally, that would stress me out. If she loses her income, the family is in trouble, even with those rental properties from a cash flow perspective. You can say they can sell the asset, but timing in the market is everything. The fact is cost of living for families has gone up. Child care is the equivalent of additional rent per child ie. Rent at 2k, Childcare is at similar equivalent or more. Their home payment is $3,3k. The mortgage on my uncle’s home when he passed in 2011 was less than $1k for a home in San Diego, after his refi, to give perspective on how much higher housing costs have become. They said they are paying for child care in addition to both of their contributions to the household. If you gave the husband 6-10 percent in property management fee per rental or factored that and just took the depreciation/accounting loss, that could add to partial solution of this problem. Someone suggested converting the airbnb to long-term. I think taking the sale and putting it in the market is a hypothetical solution, there is no guarantee that putting it in the market will result in the $9M projected number and at their total gross income they do need decent tax write offs, real estate can offer that. I am not pro-sell of real estate when things are tough, depending on where the property is, those could be better vehicles for increase of investment over time. I believe in small business families as owners of real estate. I prefer this to PE investments due to potential negative effects of big company interests on communities. I do think they need to define what is the number each partner needs to earn and contribute to ease the mental, emotional and financial burden. But beating up on folks and other people’s marriages online does not add to the psychological safety those who participate publicly. Their sharing is a value add, and seeing the criticisms here are why most people keep their marital and financial problems private. For many couples getting to a shared vision is tough. Making sure before marriage both people want the same things is not always realistic. People change. Beliefs can be uncovered much later. It is not cut and dry.
Ramit you were in your DUFFLE this episode. I think you do a good job trying to get her to identify some of the things in regards to patriarchy and gender roles.
Yeah this sounds exactly like my parents (who ended up divorcing after 22 years). My mom was a high earning accountant & my dad was a blue collar worker making $50k. He also had a lot of hobbies & side projects. It was never good enough for my mom. Good luck to this couple because this mindset will lead down a rough path.
Probably because your mom could only do what she had to do while your dad got to do what he wanted to do. Is it possible that your dad spent most of his money on those hobbies and side projects while your mom had to foot the bill on the household necessities? So much so that her hobbies and side projects had to take a backseat? If so I wouldn’t view that as never being happy but moreso someone who wanted more for themselves.
@@tamarataylor7122 Possibly but from the looks of how things are today, she probably didn't know how to develop good hobbies or have small bits of fun. If he was making $50k he could and most likely was paying half the bills.
It really is interesting how I’m hearing more stories about women who make a lot of money and want their husbands to make more (even if they are doing well career wise); yet, if the roles are reversed, you don’t hear the men asking that of their wives. It just seems weird to me to not expect women to step up financially, but we expect it constantly from men. These arbitrary roles were set by the culture we live in; men and women have filled many different roles in society throughout history around the world. Wonder how and why we created these roles for the sexes in our current culture.
It’s important to remember that women are also indoctrinated into the patriarchy. 😢 my older sister makes almost $200k but her husband makes only $100k, but will receive a full pension at age 45 and she’s still unhappy. I appreciate Ramit for bringing this dynamic on the show from the beginning.
Biology.
Women have children. Children are risky and expensive. Man needs to be big and strong and provide resources to ensure survival.
If the woman makes more it triggers instinctual survival fears. Even if it is objectively an unfounded concern the feeling still exists in most women.
It’s part of the reason men make more money; it’s built into our DNA to produce because men that don’t produce don’t get to reproduce.
The irony is that feminism promoted equality and women making as much of not more than men but then when they succeed they still want a man that makes more than them 🤪🤯.
@@cognitive-botanical-therapy Is the brother in law in the military?
You are late to the party. For the last 50 years, women have entered the workforce in droves and continue to raise their incomes. Whether single or married the economics of housing and the fixed costs of living have required that women step up as earners. This why conversations like the one above are possible in 2024. The world did and does expect us to be earners and most of us are.
There have been a few episodes where the man wanted the woman to make more money. I've also seen episodes where the women make more and are very content with that
I just can't shake the feeling that Annie is not being genuine. I think she has expectations that were left unsaid, which were hidden behind the nervous laughs. She doesn't actually want a fair split... I think she would prefer if the husband was making more money as well as doing all the rental upkeep, childcare, and business. She knows she can't say this out loud because it would appear unfair.
What if this woman leaves her job ? Her concerns are valid
There was a lot that I really appreciated in this episode, but I was a little confused about one aspect of this. The host’s projection of 3 mil - 9 mil in savings/investments for retirement age is mostly based on the assumption that the wife continues working as she does now and being a high earner. What if she doesn’t, what if she gets sick as she mentioned, can the family survive on the husband’s 3,000 a month income? That would be troubling me too, if i didn’t feel like my husband can take care of us if something were to go wrong with my health/earning ability, and I’m sure the same goes vice versa.
He needs an opportunity to be able to develop a good career.
This episode was perfectly diagnosed and counseled by Ramit. I hope they are able to really reflect on his feedback and make changes. They'd be so much happier.
Whoa this was tough to watch… I saw a lot of myself in Annie. And that’s kinda scary. I don’t have a spouse but I am in a relationship I would like to see grow, and I don’t want to treat him the way she’s treating Emory…
Step 1… start dreaming bigger
Those rental properties sound like a real nightmare. A money and time drain.
You should not get married with someone if right off the bat you don’t share the same values regarding money. Period.
Great conversations. Really enlightening how much work their properties were and letting them figure out what's the best use of their time and money, and that they'll be comfortable in retirement without relying on the rental income.
Since she is not doing the on the ground maintenance on the property, sounds like she doesn't realize the AMOUNT of time/energy properties require...🏡 Annie is missing the point. They could sell at least one of the properties, pay off all the debt, invest more and allow for Emory to continue building a business. I like how Emory called out minimizing to reset. Since I am also a Filipina, it is the cultural fixation on constant "scarcity." 🤦🏽♀️
Wild but all too common to see someone holding onto something that doesn't serve them just so they can have control over it (the rental property) -- instead of letting that day to day control go (investing in the stock market), and allowing room for much more freedom in their life and partnership. I hope they sold the properties and were able to reinvest that time and energy back into their life.
Wow. Just wow.
Agree. Investing in REITs for instance.
Something isn't highly uncorrelated. It can be highly correlated or even highly negatively correlated. But if it is uncorrelated it is just uncorrelated
Really enjoyed this episode, shows how hard it is to let go of something you believe in even when its causing you pain.
Reading the comments i think they are extremely unfair on Annie. This podcast is there to help the couples and from the outros i really feel like this conversation helped them move forward together.
My step-dad was a doctor, a total workaholic. He could not relax to enjoy time as a family (four daughters/blended family) nor did he seem to see the value in doing things for the sake of fun. Work and productivity consumed him. Overtime this has left almost no goodwill for him in my mom - they don't seem to take much real joy in each other, their marriage is hanging on by a string, and they are living in separate houses, despite outwardly professing that everything is fine. His lack of respect and effort with my mom was noticed by my three sisters and me, even as tiny kids. Children are perceptive. Sure, he had control - no one had any freedom/did anything without his permission, even my mom. But he had control and also sucked the joy out of what could have been a very happy childhood. Today, my mom and sisters and I are doing our best to live life to the fullest, but he is being left in the dust, still working. Annie if you are not careful, this is your future
It feels like she doesn’t understand that investments in index funds are also assets that grow in value, and don’t require constant maintenance…
Or (assuming they like real estate) just sell all the properties and buy REITs. Much easier way to invest in real estate.
Its just so frustrating to listen to this conversation. Emory can't get momentum going with the rental and being the designated parent. She held on so tight to the idea of the property ownership that she couldn't see the impact on his business. I'm glad they came to the "right" conclusion, and I hope they keep the conversation going.
She has some crazy unrealistic expectations. She wanted Emery to be property manager/maintenance to multiple properties, take care of the kids and household, and earn a high salary. Taylor Swift tickets are hundreds of dollars but she complains about the $5 beer. WILD!
Kudos to Ramit for shining a light thay the rental properties were the biggest issue. Poor guy, he was caught in a catch 22 "make more money, but be a property manager also!"
I truly feel for these two.
The balance of probability suggests that marriages where the husband earns significantly less than the wife tend to be unhappy. We can put as much spin on it, contort the context, or intellectually rationalize it for the sake of modernity or any other reason, but this is often the case around us. Sure, we can cite exceptions to the rule, but couples in this situation will have to work even harder than most.
Great advice on the AirBnB home Ramit! They didn't realize the issue was their "Asset". They could sell and buy a newer, less stressful asset (home); recycle the equity into another asset.