This is an elite player not understanding how the majority of players play the game. Yes you can learn general mechanics from experiencing boss mechanics especially. The majority of people aren’t going to research everything. They are definitely not doing to watch vods of their play and extremely unlikely they watch m+ of other players. I agree everything you said is beneficial to success, but that is not how the majority play the game. Interrupts and defensive I agree people can improve on. Saying people should ignore LFR and find a group makes you just seem completely out of touch of the player base
Well maybe if people watched videos of the mechanics or how other people play high keys they would not be fking average won’t they mate? Hence the point of the video is how to not fking suck?? Agree on the finding a group tip not everyone can do that.
I find your first point the most interesting. I started this season again with 4 friends, as well as other seasons before. We are "good" players, at least good enough to easily reach 3k+ io together. However, as in all previous seasons, I also had very relaxed pug runs on +23, +24, +25... often the pug runs were even smoother than the runs in our group. One of my friends said to me during the season that when he runs with pugs, he pays much more attention individually than when we play together. He learned to use his ccs much better. As VDH this season I was able to control all the add groups very easily, so when I wasn't there and my guys were running with a random warrior, they realized what they had to interrupt. So I would say that you shouldn't underestimate pugs. I think that if you only play together, you rely too often on your teammates, whereas in pugs you simply react directly before something bad happens.
tettles, trying to be relatable, immediately recommends playing with a fixed team. it's like if a moba guide started with "get on an organized team first, random teammates are really holding you back"
Let me sup it up for you, since he seems to think that y'll dumb and can't think at all. 1. Play with people who have the same goals. 2. Press the right buttons. 3. Check yourself. 4. Copy the right build from high M+ players. Huge news, I am sure nobody saw that coming.
Brother, telling people they suck at M+ then coming out the gate with the super original take that you shouldn't PuG is one of the single most harmful ways you can position your advice. Yes, voice comms and a consistent group helps. Almost everybody knows this, even the people hardstuck in the 20-25 range. But all you're doing with advice like this is further discouraging people from playing the game since socializing and having a consistent group simply isn't feasible for a vast majority of players. What really needs to happen is for players to be less apprehensive to voice chat and that won't happen in the current paradigm. Videos like this certainly don't help.
Good thing there's other advice for you in here then. The first advice will make you time more keys and at a higher level. Whether you like it or not, that's the truth and best thing you can do.
I'm a pug healer. I got to play with a friend these past couple days, he plays Shadow. Just having 1 person I can count on to do the affix makes a giant difference, he also life grips me and we can dispel each other out of things. I was thinking Yalnu also with DRs, people have no idea when to use them lol, luckily I do so people usually don't fall over. People should look at CC Done and Interrupts also if they wanna get better. A good amount of CC done for a dungeon is like 70-100. A good amount of interrupts is probably around 30 at least. Talents are a big deal also. For example, I pick up Lightning Lasso for Spiteful weeks. This does 2 things, reverts your TS into a proper knockback and then gives you a stun nuke for the other Spiteful. Shammy can do Incorp, Spiteful and Afflicted, it's really strong for ghost Affixes.
I like the Wild West that is pugging. Timing keys in a solid pug is very satisfying. Also my play times are random so I don’t have much of a choice lol.
The terms "High Keys" and "Low Keys" need to be better defined by TH-camrs/Streamers. I have heard people refer to "Low Keys" as anything up to +20. For a long time I assumed "Low Keys" meant 2-7 and "High Keys" meant 15+ because this was the skill level I was at and anything above 15 seemed impossible. Please define what you think is a "High Key" or "Low Key". If you think a "Low Key" is anything up to +22 that is 90% of where players spend all their time so speaking to the top 10% of players, they know all of this information already.
The fact that you think people in keys above 22 know all this and actually do those things you are just wrong. Low and high is always relative aswell obviously but its really easy to understand what level he is referring to.
Well idk how anything above 15 keys felt impossible when keys up to 24-25 are piss easy and people that have no idea are timing them with 25 deaths. I don’t think anyone ever thought high keys would be referring to 20s lol
I don't agree with the "pugging" point. Pug actually teaches you things that you need to become a good player - how to improvise, how to take responsibility (what is important to kick and so on, can't be sure whether a pug will do it) and do your best, how to react to unexpected situations, when to press defensive if you don't rely on a healer carrying you and how to pump more heals more rapidly (healers). I play a lot with pug and can see what people do wrong, what is scary for them and when I go into a higher dungeon, like +27 with a group of friends, I am kind of like a brawler, when something unexpected happens, not just doing the plan, I can turn the tables sometimes, just brawling around and trying to repair a mistake, which will always keep happening either way. Of course don't expect the same outcome with pug as with a premade, there's a big difference.
Pugging teaches you how to take responsibility? Isnt that premades that do that? Also you can learn all of the wild improv shit from premades too, stuff will go wrong once u increase the key level.
I agree with you. People should use their experiences from pugging to improve their flexibility and expand their knowledge of what can go wrong when mistskes happen. While a consistent team is where you work on your planning, discipline, and execution to min max. Ppl make mistakes, and pugging without coms makes you more adaptable in the future bc you become the person who's seen it all, keeps calm when the mistakes happen, and knows what to do to handle/fix them when they happen.
@@kel1770 Yes. Successful pugs are pugs in which people take responsibility - they kick, CC, are dead set on interrupting the cast that wipes you if let go. It happens in high keys in pug, but sometimes it doesn't, because you know, others will take care of it surely? In pug you don't expect others to do important stuff, you just do it yourself to the best of your ability. It teaches you to take care of something in a key and not be a passenger.
I play a druid heal and I noticed that I used some of my abilities not often enough, so I wrote me some simple WA that remind me to use them. It helped me a lot to push out more heal. I should use my Flourish more. I can only play very irregular so I most of the time play in pugs with maybe 1 other person I know. I log all my keys (private log I only want the option to check what happened in some situations) and how often people don't use any deff CD baffels me. I had some WM 24 runs last weeks and I noticed that many people die and I wonder if I do something completly wrong. A hunter died in the council fight to the DoT in Phase 3 (the DoT you need to heal over 90%). He didn't use a deff CD, no healing pot/hs/self heal. Nothing, he just ticks down. Mage dies to the channel trash mob + spits from the worms. His first damage tick he gets was 8 seconds before he died. He used his 70% dmg reduction deff CD 0,2 seconds before he died. I sit here and wonder why people die and they are in 24s and don't use any deff CD. That are the moments were I am surprised how they even reach these keys.
Another thing is the Leaver Rate of the community in LFG hinders your own personal Progression as well because it takes a ton of time to actually finish a key bc the moment the key is not timeable or wipes happen then someone leaves and you have to start all over.
This list really comes down to how high you want to push. You can pug pretty high this season. Have seen multiple people pug 27+s. But if you’re social circle isn’t big, or you play at a time when not a lot of people are on (my case), you can pug in the 24/25 range just fine.
I think most people do not do higher keys becouse they really dont care about doing anything over +20 and not becouse they cant do it. Dungeon +20 give you the best loot and the dungeon portal. There is no other reason to do anything higher, except if you want to get the world title.
Well there is always the fact that some people want to actually do challenging content even if they won’t get title. Not everyone is satisfied with doing piss easy 20s all season.
Having situational awareness and knowing your spec well, then comes being very familiar with the dungeon you are working on, then you have room to help your team when they falter. Creating or joining a team that all have the same mindset is the most critical in pushing higher and higher keys. If you do not key together consistently, well then, your wasting time and progress will plateau.
helping others that should know what they are doing is just a waste of time, and they should learn it on their own time if they want to climb. most important is you focus on yourself and YOUR gameplay. if its friends, then sure, you can help them like my friend helped me (rank 1 MW in the world). a lot of ppl wont learn if they have to do so much at once, then they end up not learning much from it. best thing is to focus on one thing at a time, like your rotation first so you actually know how to do dmg, then after that you should learn when to use your defensives and when to kick and what to kick. thats what i did and it helped me a lot. another thing is, its prob a good idea to start with an easy class/spec to then maybe try a more complex spec and to find a class/spec that you actually find fun that you can enjoy playing for hours on end
The biggest thing for me was knowledge. I always felt confused and had no plan going into dungeons, but after learning what each and every mob does I significantly improved, also learning your own class, rotation, etc.
What's the weakaura showing spell cooldowns on nameplates and also all the boss timers and warnings? Looks nice and clean, and a lot easier to read than DBM.
Once I found a team I gained literally 200 io in 2-3 weeks. As opposed to the usual 20 or so every week. Pugging is getting io on hard mode. Having a team just is not fair and makes it so much easier.
Doing alot of pugs makes you good at doing pugs. Ofc a close knitted team of 5 can get further, that just goes without saying. I really don't care about getting to the top 1% of players. I'll take my resto shammy as high as I can, and when I can't push any higher then that's fine. There is mythic+ with friends and there is mythic+ in pugs. The two are not the same, and shouldn't even be compared.
For me, #1 is the biggest reason ... Unlike previous expansions where I ran most m+ in a group of friends or guildies and had a lot of fun ... for DF I've had to pug basically everything since most of my friends/guildies no longer play or having conflicting schedules. I guess I was fortunate in the past, but man, pugging almost every key nowadays kind of sucks as a non-meta DPS. At best, it's just whatever. You time the key, usually get nothing at the end of the dungeon, and at worst, it's a tedious, unfun experience, and usually it's with immature d bags that have zero social skills. Don't get me wrong, i don't take it personal (as I usually know all mechanics and don't make many mistakes), but it seems the odds of having a smooth run have gone way down compared to the odds of having a frustrating one. And I don't know, maybe it's my age, or just that my priorities in life have changed, but I just don't see myself continuing much longer if I don't find a new guild that regularly runs content together... which will be tough to say goodbye to my current guild, but most people aren't playing anymore or doing competitive end game content ... we'll see.
#1 I believe is my biggest issue for sure. I’ve been hard stuck on 25/26s and I feel like at that level pugs can be a significant challenge. This season I’ve gotten to the 3300 range on both a healer and DPS but going beyond that has been super challenging
I know the feeling, though I have a feel of a time getting invited to anything above a 21. Think it's time to get off of fury warrior and roll something that gets in groups 😂
This range is where I got stuck and while I can personally improve on a ton of things, it truly feels like this is the area where PUGS hit their limit. Really need too much coordination at that level to truly succeed. Unless the people pugging are playing perfect. For context, I did 26s with pugs. Never done 27.
Yea same, i finished 8/16 27s and rest are 26 and there are legit just no groups open lol. All day today I saw maybe 3-4 keys I need, none invited me. I think everyone is just grouped up at this point, I check most people's io and almost evryone i play with has the same 4 people in all of their highest keys.
I run keys with guild peeps, and tell them ahead of time “I will dominate any single incorp, and wait for it on double incorp.” And they still CC them everysingletime. It’s frustrating.
I'm assuming you've told them this directly and pointed it out when it happens again, in which case I'd probably start trying to find other people to run with. Assuming you haven't told them directly, there you go.
great video. I get that finding ppl to play with will help my situation, however i find it increadible difficult to actually find a "team". im stuck at just below 3500, and its close to impossible to get invited to groups/keys that i can actually benefit from. is finding a "team" the only way i will ever improve?
I got to 3k pugging, but +23 is about my limit to avoid going into bad runs and depleted keys. Feeling judged all the time while trying to do your best is not good for learning as you say. Even worse are try-hards who insist on pulling in some pro way, or expect you to do some fancy move in a PuG, and then quit when it doesn't work out.
Actually pugging helps if you have your prio straight, pugging doesnt allow for optimized plays but it forces the player to master their own individual plays. For eg, if you only play dps pugging, switch over to heal or tank, it will be tilting sometimes but trust me, it will refine your dungeon knowledge and help you be a better you. Its actually a good start...
Biggest advantage is to play with like-minded individuals where everyone understands what to do and knows what the game plan is. There is such a thing as over communication - too much shot calling/talking is disruptive and always causes more problems than solves.
I have to disagree with your 1st point. Speaking as a healer - if I’m in a group with bad pugs it forces me to play better to try and carry the group. Between getting all the important stops , dealing with the affix and being able to respond to unexpected damage events improves performance when you finally run with a competent pug everything feels easier
Thanks. I agree. I think you inadvertently build-in compensations to your game when in a pug. Long term that will cause a plateau. Very insightful. Thank you.
I understand why he said it, but I kind of disagree with the first point about pugs. Yes, if you're going to push the highest keys possible, you need a solid group and you need repeatable results, absolutely true. And I think that's why he said it. But I think improving at anything is about challenging yourself, and pugs can sure be a challenge. Being thrown into chaotic, sub-optimal situations forces you to get creative in ways a solid, high pushing group doesn't. Moreover, I have at least at some anecdotal evidence that I don't learn something until it affects me. If I have a solid group of players that have always taken care of X, then I'll never learn what X is or how to handle it. I see this a lot in players going from normal to heroic raids a lot. They're solid players in normal, they put up the numbers, but other people always handle mechanics for them. Then you get to Heroic and the same mechanic requires everyone do it at some point and they fall to pieces. I guess TL:DR pugs can put you outside your comfort zone and that's a good time to learn.
I get the point it's better to play with a fixed team ; but it's really hard to find a group... I pretty much waste every season pugging until i'm fed up and I give up playing and trying to find people. I've pretty much tried everything available to find people but it's really hard. If anyone have advice on somewhere I can find a group, it would help
As A DH i always play Mortal Dance on sanguine weeks and i always play the Slow Glaives talent in the class tree for them angry Bobby Kotic ghosts weeks.
It's pretty rough tbh, even around the 18-23 range people still dont know all the mechanics/dont have things like invis as I've come to discover in my alt keys. Then, once you progress further you enter the territory of spending all day in group finder. It's a lose lose for competitive people who dont have time for premades. Cant chill and do medium keys because half the players are actual bots and no one likes spending all day in lfg.
Would love to play with a fixed team. None of my friends were interested in doing anything beyond 18 to 20's. I had to pug 20's and 21's. I ended up giving up as I was unable to find good groups reliably. I had to pug every key over 19. I am not great at making friends and the single biggest stress for me is simply finding ppl to play with. I have walked away from the game many times because I have no one to do mid level keys with. Oh everyone of my friends is happy to do a 16 to 19 but complete zero interest in anything higher.
Just adding 5 people without the points you listed won't change anything, however if you add 4-5 people who want to get better at the game then it will make a huge difference. As per the points you mentioned I feel that there is a huge issue with FOTM rerollers. Being a FOTM reroller doesn't mean anything, in fact you can be a great player, however based on my experience in 26-27 keys those players are the reason why keys fail most of the time. The most egoistic, but least knowledgable players. The other thing is self reflection. I have had numerous pug keys where I was far the highest interrupter / CC-er / Affix handler but due to others not interrupting and cc-ing (+ healer re-realizing when or how to heal) I died --> obviously DPS loss. In the end sometimes these people whisper me and say "nice overall" or "wtf [insert class name]", etc even if marginally lower. I learned to shrug it off, since when I'm at 45 interrupt and a 3.5k rogue is at 1, then I cannot care lesser that he is able to survive therefore doing more DPS. But for some reason these people never take a look at the overall picture, they overly simplify the formula: Am I the highest DPS = I'm good, nothing else matters. So doing 20-30k more dps justifies the 1 cc, 1 interrupt and 20k overall more dmg taken than me. Just had a lovely 26 Rise where 3450 tank (VDH) literally couldn't group trash mobs, used all CC-s withing 7 seconds (even though there was no danger), constantly turned Tyr even though group moved really well, semi-wiped us on Battleground, actively tried to hit melee dps with tank frontal on morchie and wiped us 2x on because he died out of nowhere. But due to high DPS we still had a real chance until on last he killed my friend because he realized Deios should be moved. Thankfully he blamed my friend for inting the key. When I tried to explain the tank what he did wrong he replied in such a great way "haha, just let me know when you are at 3450 noob". So until you can get 3450 with 1. being not knowledgable about the dungeon 2. not understanding how your class / specs / role works 3. You get invited because you are a tank and there is still huge demand and eventually you time keys --> more score --> more invite Then I think there won't be any real change. In my opinion there should be some statistics added to RIO such as CC-s done, affix done, interrupts with some extra statistics e.g. "average interrupt / key" (with filter for dungeon and key level) and I can guarantee many people would struggle to expoit the system, but would reward those who actively try to help their group :)
I really can't disagree that Pugging & LFG is bad because there are so many bad players out there that it's impossible to know how to improve. I'm a tank player myself and i always get blamed for not having aggro, but when i look at my recordings then there are just rushing ahead and ninjapulling which doesn't make it any easier for us tanks and we kind of have to use 1-2 abilities before the dps can use their cds. Same thing actually goes for healers. People like to point out how bad the healers are in the groups but then the people themselves never actually stun, interrupt or even use defensives.
Wish there were better tools for finding consistent groups as a dps, trying to pug the hardest challenge is just getting in. Right now I have the easy 28s and the hard 27s, so i dont have the io to do the easy 29s but also not to do the hard 28s so im just in queue for hours.
That's why i stopped playing the game, i have no issue doing any mechanic in M+, but because i don't want to stick with consistent groups and i only have time to pug, i get f'ed by that. Pugs are dead past certain key, going to a 24 and seen the tank pulling 4-5 different packs group when bolstering is acting and having him and the rest of the group be unaware of that fact + we don't have as many CC to deal with so many casts in between our CCs' CDs + defensives which will do nothing when the last mobs are bolstered for up to 12-14 times (yep..) and people get spawn dying trying to go back to engage with bolstered mobs is absolutely insane and that's a..."normal thing" i had seen happen over 12 groups in the same night of trying to do a single 24 key. Even without bolstering the other fact about CC still stands and is still an issue, as a main healer i just gave up.
Damn, as a mage a list of what to prio interrupts on and why would be tight af. Kinda just focus on the most devastating casts wild shit like wildfire or water bolts are going off and it feels like shit lol
I kind of have to disagree with the first point. Yes you will perform better if you can play with the same group and get better at doing what is specifically asked of you in that group. But at the same time you will also just not be as well rounded of a player. You will become less aware of certain mechanics because your group allows you to not worry about them. Beside whether or not it makes you better is kind of irrelevant since ultimately most people simply don't have the choice to begin with.
Well not worrying about every single mechanic is how the game is supposed to be played. Thats why you have 5 ppl so everyone can do their part. In pugs you just learn to try and watch everything because all your teammates are monkeys. Agree that most people can’t find a stable group even if they try.
@@icswack6015 It's not necessarily having to worry about every single mechanic at the same time. Playing with pugs does lead to some inefficient gameplay and bad habits because of that. But even if you could play with multiple push groups with slightly different comps / strats that's going to make you a more well rounded player. Something as simple as your group always skips that one pack and now you forget exactly what it even does. Or you play with a rogue and because you always shroud aren't aware of all the different ways you can skip certain packs. That's before getting into how you can start to rely on your teammates too much. If you always play with a VDH and then play with the best PPala in the world you are going to suck a little.
Havent watched the video yet but i must say this. Use Nameplates and use your interuppts and you get far. And dungeon weakaura are nice to have besides DBM.
I disagree with the first point, and would go as far as to say it is the other way around. I like to think about it as acting, where going as a premade team is just following the script, but pugging is impro. It is very clear to me when I get someone that rarely pugs in my group, as they will often have no idea how to adjust or deal with all the unexpected shit that can happen. As soon as we go off script, they just don't know what to do or get mad. They are too used to their set routes, and having their set team that has their back. In pugs you also get to see more players than if you just stick to your team. Sometimes someone does something you and your friends may not have thought of doing. So exposing yourself to more people increases the chances of picking up more tricks. You are right that you will get further with a team, but pugging is a great way to learn how to improvise. So I would not say it is harmful to your play, quite the opposite actually. I say pug a lot and learn from it, then bring that with you to push as a team, but don't abandon pugging thinking it's bad for you. That said, if someone is like Tettles here, with a decent network of people and quite up to date with what people are doing, then pugging might not teach you as much, but most of us are not like that.
It’s not realistic advice to tell people not to pug. Us normies have no other options. I focus on (1) optimizing how I pick the most potentially successful groups in LFG & (2) becoming the best player I can be to help carry bad groups. I have a significantly better chance to succeed doing those 2 things while pugging, rather than constantly trying & failing to find a consistent group to play with. Pugging has taught me how to do more than just my role & play better so that I can carry bad players when they’re unfortunately in the key. I also learn new strats that I wouldn’t see if I played with the same group every day.
As stated LFG is the worst for improvement. You learn nothing from it and everyone in the party can potentially throw a key by accident. You'll always be nothing more than a name and a number. A lot of the time the group just simply doesn't work and it's not even anyone's fault. Also almost no one in there ever wants legitimate progression. They want a carry regardless of their skill level. There is a noticeable amount of people with really big heads that can do no wrong in there as well. It's good for making you feel like a useless piece of garbage though. I stopped at 22s because it's not worth it now.
Was about to say, I'm doing 27s and I don't expect a carry EVER. I always expect to carry and thats a good mind set to have going into pugs, you are the main character and you should play like your team isn't gunna do much and then after the first few pulls you'll know how much you gotta carry.
I do that too. It just feels like you need max gear a meta class and 200 more score than the group lead to get an invite for low 20s making progression near impossible. I may have had a worse than usual experience though. I've seen guys leave before starting because everyone in the group only a had the key timed 1 lower including the leaver.
The things you are talking about are true in theory but not in practice. You can do the highest keys while pugging and you don’t even need to be very good. You just need to play a meta class, play all day every day and eventually if you are at least decent player you will get to the highest possible pug keys. Example: all the disappointingly average mage pugs that are around 3750-3.8k rio this season. I played havoc, got to 3.6k and stopped getting invites. Rerolled to ret and got 3750 in 3 weeks of starting the toon. Did I become a better player? No and I even believe I am better havoc than ret so that should give ppl an idea of how high score is done. Play all day, play meta boys
As a healer, I disagree with your first point. It's important to pug to test what you can and can't do. To feel what stressful damage intake is like. There is literally no better training for healer than to pug keys. Also not a single time did you mention Stat balancing like hello.
I gotta admit the self assessment thing is actually huge imo Each time you finish a dungeon, as your tank or healer how do they think you did, specially if you tank or heal!!! You will be surprised what constructive criticism you get, sometimes is something so out of your mind that it will absolutely smack you in the face when you hear it and if you don't have the balls to check yourself with others then you are THAT giy always blaming others for your own blind failures
So in order to "be good" I have to know every single talent in my build and how it synergizes with my other talents in every way, all other party members abilities, every trash encounter, every boss encounter, every kick and stun and blessing and hack and tech, have all the right add ons and weak auras and have them perfectly configured, know keybindings like my kids lives depend on it, have a perfectly laid out and hyper efficient hud to minimize wasteful eye movement, never hesitate, have dead balls accuracy, have the reflexes of a cat on crack, watch recordings of myself, run sims on myself with every piece of gear in every situation, and have a solid group of dependable gamers that show up and have mastered all of the attributes listed above. All of this and THEN I'll be good? Where does fun come into this equation? If I'm working this hard I better be getting paid six figures for it. I've said it before, people take this game way too seriously and completely lose perspective.
Some people find the chase of improvement fun and have an innate desire to push for perfection. It's okay you don't find that fun! This isnt intended for you!
WoW is no longer a video game anymore. This is unfair time consumer which requires from u extra efforts & knowledge and your reward will be - timed 25 key (or even lower) for nothing and silent people in a group (instead of flaming you for failing mechs and leaving then). It is as it is 🤷♀️
@@Gaius_Sinstone knowing what you are doing and having everything this community deems as required to "be good" are two different things. Knowing what you are doing in a game is fun, what they are describing is an unpaid job or, honestly, an addiction. You get that awesome feeling from the first time you two chest a 20, so you fine tune and watch video and spend hours and hours to chase that rabbit, that feeling of accomplishment you got from that first pop of a m+20. Only to realize that no matter what you do it doesn't feel as good, but you keep trying and studying and siming and not letting things like people and sunlight stop you from getting to 3.5k io. Once you hit that THEN you'll be good. THEN you'll be worthy...
@@LeoSpaceman2012 if it feels like a job, you’re probably doing content that’s too difficult for you. You can be a great player at your level. Maybe stop trying to compete in content you just don’t need to be doing. You’re comparing yourself to others instead of having fun doing the level of content that you can actually excel at.
I find it annoying that in high keys people end up doing dumb tactics like jumping on that ledge in AD (around 8:50 in the video). I understand why they do it but I feel like it's not how the game was designed to be played. I'm not a purist or anything, but I feel like it takes away from the spirit of the game (for lack of a better term).
"Pugging is bad" Well no shit. But i've been trying to get into a team for the first two months of the season as resto shaman, and people were either just quitting on first failed key or not showing up at all for the next m+ session, or just failing really bad for the level of they keys we've been attempting. I've exclusively pugged to most 25s/26s and i'm stuck at trying to get into 27s simply because i'm not getting invited to any keys at all, because i play resto shaman. I know for a fact that with a PMA and coordinated team i'd definitely heal some 28s. I'm now fine with the fact that 26s are my ceiling, i'd rather play some other game than either play the queue simulator for an hour just to be invited to one key, or gambling keys with random people who die with all their defensives off cd. My point is that there is no easy solution (or sometimes none at all) to the "pugging is bad" situation, there are players stuck in the lfg purgatory that could easily play their role at 3-4 higher key levels than their current.
Can you tell me how to improve as a 3.7k havoc dh when nobody would invite me to a key ever because there is vdh in every group? Because I think my best course of improvement to reroll to another class.
Late to the party, sorry. Tets, I know you want more and you should be demanding more from Blizzard in terms of the higher, more complex and refined aspects of playing WoW....but most people don't care and won't do what you tell them. The RWF/MDI crowd has set a very high bar for most players and it cannot be replicated to have your guys exact same performance. It just can't. To me, this last RWF is and will always be peak WoW and from here it's all going doooooownnnnnnnnn I understand wanting to teach people on how to self reflect, research, make better and informed decisions, but most people aren't going to do that, because it's just too much. But I get it. I do. This game, especially for the RWF/MDI whatever top performers, is great and I'm happy for you, but most people are miserable with the current state of retail WoW. It's just what it is. Blizzard lost the sauce and they won't get it back, Metzen, Hazzikostas or otherwise. It'll still be fine, and numbers will fluctuate from season to season, but the engagement with the broader community won't be there and this is just going to be a steady, very slow decline and that's fine too if I really think about it. I also understand that this game, again, for your crowd, is your job, but as this video went on I finally realized, after 10 or so odd years, that WoW's main driving force (RWF/MDI) are completely out of touch with the broad sentiment of players.....and that's a tough pill to swallow Both Retail and Classic versions of WoW have become hunting grounds for top parse/raid leader prospects and I'm not the target audience, so yeah I'll spend my time and resources elsewhere, being more productive.
I don’t think the wowhead guide is accurate, take bm hunter for example, they recommmend haste and mastery, but it should be crit/haste/mastery balanced. Meh
I will start by saying: I am sorry, did not watch the video, but just wanted to post this one comment, here we go ... "Sorry, no legendary, not gonna play with you" 😂😂 Hard to get into 28 or higher keys without RNG on your side when you are pugging only => Hard to get more experience in higher endgame.
how? how do you get people to play with? i dont get this... everyone is saying that pugging sucks, yet not a single content creator is able to tell his audience how get people to play with? do i have to join a mythic raid? do i have to quit my job so that i can be online the entire day? is there a secret list of discords where i just need to magically get inveted to find people? because i can tell you pugging all the way up to 27s my brother and i haven't met a single player in over 300 runs that was good and wanted to play with us. you have the wronf classes you have the wrong online times you dont have raid loot...every season is the same. so please someone for once make a guide or whatever and tell people how you should get away from pugging hell
You absolutely don't have to quit your job and be chronically online. The easiest way of doing this honestly is forming groups with people you're already friends with that are also interested in M+. Just ask kinda what people's availability is and be like "yeah so we play Saturday at 6pm." These can be friends from your raid, can be friends you've known for a while, can be people you met in LFG and now have a good rapport with. You have you and your brother which is definitely the best starting point. I'd also recommend adding people to btag after runs or just generally asking people if they want to keep going once you see successful play from a pretty good player. Additionally pushing people to get into voice with you for the runs you do allows you to bulid more of a friendship with people and it makes them more inclined to play with you for successive runs.
It's like getting a gf or a job. Youre 100x more likely to get one if you already have one or had one recently. If you have no network you're probably just screwed. 'uhh just message people who are good in pugs and try to make friends or something idk' is the only real advice they can give that isn't 'just already have friends who are good bro.'
@@illiberalautist2222 Yeah, fundamentally it comes down to building a network of people that you know are good. You're not screwed though as there are a lot of steps that you can take to bulid up a network of people (and meet new ones in the process!).
@@Tettles yeah I was exaggerating. It's a big thing with new player experience that people ignore. People focus on complexity and leveling and all that and forget the biggest thing that new players need is for the game to help them find friends to play with instead of shuffling them into random pugs.
Well thats at least a starting Point. So i Wanne add people to my bnet and ask them for Future days, noted. But how do you Guys manage the days and which Players you gathered? To you have a planning Tool or a spreadsheet or how does that Work? For discord: i noticed people Like to leave because " ITS a dead Server" ( Just about 30 people). Someone Gott a Tipp how to Combat that?
Why are you focused on what big crit is coming next instead of focusing on mechanics in front of you? Damage numbers are useless. And you also have details for later too
Wildly tone deaf and just not remotely close to usable when tip 1 is find a fixed group of players.. As someone who has pugged up to 3600 and sometimes plays with a set of 3 players pugging 2 players, this is also just... not correct? Puging and relying on yourself will force you to learn all forms of utility and things you can do to make every mob and boss smoother even if it is suboptimal in some fixed comps.
This is an elite player not understanding how the majority of players play the game. Yes you can learn general mechanics from experiencing boss mechanics especially. The majority of people aren’t going to research everything. They are definitely not doing to watch vods of their play and extremely unlikely they watch m+ of other players. I agree everything you said is beneficial to success, but that is not how the majority play the game. Interrupts and defensive I agree people can improve on.
Saying people should ignore LFR and find a group makes you just seem completely out of touch of the player base
This is not a video to be average in m+ so why does it matter how the average person interacts with the game.
Well maybe if people watched videos of the mechanics or how other people play high keys they would not be fking average won’t they mate? Hence the point of the video is how to not fking suck?? Agree on the finding a group tip not everyone can do that.
I’m just always blown away by how WoW players don’t wanna be in a guild. The game gets so much better when you have a solid one
He is out of touch. A group enables consistency, but Tettles told on himself by making that the _first_ bullet point.
Hopefully, s4 helps a little.
I find your first point the most interesting. I started this season again with 4 friends, as well as other seasons before.
We are "good" players, at least good enough to easily reach 3k+ io together. However, as in all previous seasons, I also had very relaxed pug runs on +23, +24, +25... often the pug runs were even smoother than the runs in our group.
One of my friends said to me during the season that when he runs with pugs, he pays much more attention individually than when we play together. He learned to use his ccs much better.
As VDH this season I was able to control all the add groups very easily, so when I wasn't there and my guys were running with a random warrior, they realized what they had to interrupt.
So I would say that you shouldn't underestimate pugs. I think that if you only play together, you rely too often on your teammates, whereas in pugs you simply react directly before something bad happens.
i fear not the man who has played with 1 group 10,000 times. i fear the man who has played with 10,000 groups 1 time each
Great point
It's a little bit funny as a ppal how many people are lost without a vdh
yup thats right but the proplem in pugs is u start overlapping ccs which can be a deplete in 26-30keys
Just start flaming your friends when they miss shit.
tettles, trying to be relatable, immediately recommends playing with a fixed team. it's like if a moba guide started with "get on an organized team first, random teammates are really holding you back"
Well it's the truth.
homie woke up with a cow lick
Lmfao I can’t stop laughing 🤣
I absolutely couldn't focus on the content wondering if it was an actual haircut ;)
Thanks for the videos, Tettles. No offense meant!
"Do you like Flock of Seagulls?" ... "No. But I can tell you do!"
Let me sup it up for you, since he seems to think that y'll dumb and can't think at all.
1. Play with people who have the same goals.
2. Press the right buttons.
3. Check yourself.
4. Copy the right build from high M+ players.
Huge news, I am sure nobody saw that coming.
Brother, telling people they suck at M+ then coming out the gate with the super original take that you shouldn't PuG is one of the single most harmful ways you can position your advice. Yes, voice comms and a consistent group helps. Almost everybody knows this, even the people hardstuck in the 20-25 range. But all you're doing with advice like this is further discouraging people from playing the game since socializing and having a consistent group simply isn't feasible for a vast majority of players. What really needs to happen is for players to be less apprehensive to voice chat and that won't happen in the current paradigm. Videos like this certainly don't help.
Wait… is this respectful disagreement and constructive feedback? On the internet?
God, now I’ve seen everything.
I actually agree with this.
Yea I work shifts that are different every week. Pugs/solo shuffle is the only way I can play the game
lol Captain obvious giving out advice.
Good thing there's other advice for you in here then.
The first advice will make you time more keys and at a higher level. Whether you like it or not, that's the truth and best thing you can do.
I'm a pug healer. I got to play with a friend these past couple days, he plays Shadow. Just having 1 person I can count on to do the affix makes a giant difference, he also life grips me and we can dispel each other out of things.
I was thinking Yalnu also with DRs, people have no idea when to use them lol, luckily I do so people usually don't fall over.
People should look at CC Done and Interrupts also if they wanna get better. A good amount of CC done for a dungeon is like 70-100. A good amount of interrupts is probably around 30 at least.
Talents are a big deal also. For example, I pick up Lightning Lasso for Spiteful weeks. This does 2 things, reverts your TS into a proper knockback and then gives you a stun nuke for the other Spiteful. Shammy can do Incorp, Spiteful and Afflicted, it's really strong for ghost Affixes.
It feels like like pugging teaches out how to react to complete shit storms. Pug for awhile and then find a group and its smooth sailing.
I screw up a lot in pugs when trying to interrupt, i end up overlapping, or someone else overlaps mine
I like the Wild West that is pugging. Timing keys in a solid pug is very satisfying. Also my play times are random so I don’t have much of a choice lol.
The terms "High Keys" and "Low Keys" need to be better defined by TH-camrs/Streamers. I have heard people refer to "Low Keys" as anything up to +20. For a long time I assumed "Low Keys" meant 2-7 and "High Keys" meant 15+ because this was the skill level I was at and anything above 15 seemed impossible. Please define what you think is a "High Key" or "Low Key". If you think a "Low Key" is anything up to +22 that is 90% of where players spend all their time so speaking to the top 10% of players, they know all of this information already.
💯 The “find a consistent group” advice might make more sense if he’s specifically referring to 25+ keys.
The fact that you think people in keys above 22 know all this and actually do those things you are just wrong.
Low and high is always relative aswell obviously but its really easy to understand what level he is referring to.
Well idk how anything above 15 keys felt impossible when keys up to 24-25 are piss easy and people that have no idea are timing them with 25 deaths. I don’t think anyone ever thought high keys would be referring to 20s lol
I don't agree with the "pugging" point. Pug actually teaches you things that you need to become a good player - how to improvise, how to take responsibility (what is important to kick and so on, can't be sure whether a pug will do it) and do your best, how to react to unexpected situations, when to press defensive if you don't rely on a healer carrying you and how to pump more heals more rapidly (healers). I play a lot with pug and can see what people do wrong, what is scary for them and when I go into a higher dungeon, like +27 with a group of friends, I am kind of like a brawler, when something unexpected happens, not just doing the plan, I can turn the tables sometimes, just brawling around and trying to repair a mistake, which will always keep happening either way. Of course don't expect the same outcome with pug as with a premade, there's a big difference.
Pugging teaches you how to take responsibility? Isnt that premades that do that? Also you can learn all of the wild improv shit from premades too, stuff will go wrong once u increase the key level.
You wont react to a non interupted cast that wipes you in +27
Bro, just play with a bunch of professional gamers! Duh..
I agree with you. People should use their experiences from pugging to improve their flexibility and expand their knowledge of what can go wrong when mistskes happen. While a consistent team is where you work on your planning, discipline, and execution to min max.
Ppl make mistakes, and pugging without coms makes you more adaptable in the future bc you become the person who's seen it all, keeps calm when the mistakes happen, and knows what to do to handle/fix them when they happen.
@@kel1770 Yes. Successful pugs are pugs in which people take responsibility - they kick, CC, are dead set on interrupting the cast that wipes you if let go. It happens in high keys in pug, but sometimes it doesn't, because you know, others will take care of it surely? In pug you don't expect others to do important stuff, you just do it yourself to the best of your ability. It teaches you to take care of something in a key and not be a passenger.
I play a druid heal and I noticed that I used some of my abilities not often enough, so I wrote me some simple WA that remind me to use them. It helped me a lot to push out more heal. I should use my Flourish more.
I can only play very irregular so I most of the time play in pugs with maybe 1 other person I know.
I log all my keys (private log I only want the option to check what happened in some situations) and how often people don't use any deff CD baffels me. I had some WM 24 runs last weeks and I noticed that many people die and I wonder if I do something completly wrong.
A hunter died in the council fight to the DoT in Phase 3 (the DoT you need to heal over 90%). He didn't use a deff CD, no healing pot/hs/self heal. Nothing, he just ticks down.
Mage dies to the channel trash mob + spits from the worms. His first damage tick he gets was 8 seconds before he died. He used his 70% dmg reduction deff CD 0,2 seconds before he died.
I sit here and wonder why people die and they are in 24s and don't use any deff CD. That are the moments were I am surprised how they even reach these keys.
Another thing is the Leaver Rate of the community in LFG hinders your own personal Progression as well because it takes a ton of time to actually finish a key bc the moment the key is not timeable or wipes happen then someone leaves and you have to start all over.
Your first take isn't controversial, it's $hit
This list really comes down to how high you want to push. You can pug pretty high this season. Have seen multiple people pug 27+s. But if you’re social circle isn’t big, or you play at a time when not a lot of people are on (my case), you can pug in the 24/25 range just fine.
People pug 30-31 no voice
I think most people do not do higher keys becouse they really dont care about doing anything over +20 and not becouse they cant do it. Dungeon +20 give you the best loot and the dungeon portal. There is no other reason to do anything higher, except if you want to get the world title.
Well there is always the fact that some people want to actually do challenging content even if they won’t get title. Not everyone is satisfied with doing piss easy 20s all season.
Having situational awareness and knowing your spec well, then comes being very familiar with the dungeon you are working on, then you have room to help your team when they falter. Creating or joining a team that all have the same mindset is the most critical in pushing higher and higher keys. If you do not key together consistently, well then, your wasting time and progress will plateau.
helping others that should know what they are doing is just a waste of time, and they should learn it on their own time if they want to climb. most important is you focus on yourself and YOUR gameplay. if its friends, then sure, you can help them like my friend helped me (rank 1 MW in the world). a lot of ppl wont learn if they have to do so much at once, then they end up not learning much from it. best thing is to focus on one thing at a time, like your rotation first so you actually know how to do dmg, then after that you should learn when to use your defensives and when to kick and what to kick. thats what i did and it helped me a lot. another thing is, its prob a good idea to start with an easy class/spec to then maybe try a more complex spec and to find a class/spec that you actually find fun that you can enjoy playing for hours on end
Learning to Focus macro/ interrupt focus macro, elevated my interrupt game greatly this season.
I'd like you to actually try pugging for one season, then revisit this video. Is the pug still bad if they can communicate?
The biggest thing for me was knowledge. I always felt confused and had no plan going into dungeons, but after learning what each and every mob does I significantly improved, also learning your own class, rotation, etc.
What's the weakaura showing spell cooldowns on nameplates and also all the boss timers and warnings? Looks nice and clean, and a lot easier to read than DBM.
You said it yourself, just append "wago" to what youre looking for and youll find it. Also use bigwigs, more flexible than dbm.
Once I found a team I gained literally 200 io in 2-3 weeks. As opposed to the usual 20 or so every week.
Pugging is getting io on hard mode. Having a team just is not fair and makes it so much easier.
PvE vs AI or PvP vs real people? Pro at doing the same old dungeons over and over? That something to be proud of in life?
Doing alot of pugs makes you good at doing pugs. Ofc a close knitted team of 5 can get further, that just goes without saying.
I really don't care about getting to the top 1% of players. I'll take my resto shammy as high as I can, and when I can't push any higher then that's fine.
There is mythic+ with friends and there is mythic+ in pugs. The two are not the same, and shouldn't even be compared.
For me, #1 is the biggest reason ... Unlike previous expansions where I ran most m+ in a group of friends or guildies and had a lot of fun ... for DF I've had to pug basically everything since most of my friends/guildies no longer play or having conflicting schedules.
I guess I was fortunate in the past, but man, pugging almost every key nowadays kind of sucks as a non-meta DPS. At best, it's just whatever. You time the key, usually get nothing at the end of the dungeon, and at worst, it's a tedious, unfun experience, and usually it's with immature d bags that have zero social skills. Don't get me wrong, i don't take it personal (as I usually know all mechanics and don't make many mistakes), but it seems the odds of having a smooth run have gone way down compared to the odds of having a frustrating one.
And I don't know, maybe it's my age, or just that my priorities in life have changed, but I just don't see myself continuing much longer if I don't find a new guild that regularly runs content together... which will be tough to say goodbye to my current guild, but most people aren't playing anymore or doing competitive end game content ... we'll see.
#1 I believe is my biggest issue for sure. I’ve been hard stuck on 25/26s and I feel like at that level pugs can be a significant challenge. This season I’ve gotten to the 3300 range on both a healer and DPS but going beyond that has been super challenging
I know the feeling, though I have a feel of a time getting invited to anything above a 21. Think it's time to get off of fury warrior and roll something that gets in groups 😂
This range is where I got stuck and while I can personally improve on a ton of things, it truly feels like this is the area where PUGS hit their limit. Really need too much coordination at that level to truly succeed. Unless the people pugging are playing perfect.
For context, I did 26s with pugs. Never done 27.
@@danny-gf9moI've done a bunch of 28s and a two 29s with pugs no voice . It's super possible
Yea same, i finished 8/16 27s and rest are 26 and there are legit just no groups open lol. All day today I saw maybe 3-4 keys I need, none invited me. I think everyone is just grouped up at this point, I check most people's io and almost evryone i play with has the same 4 people in all of their highest keys.
@@quintit Yeh around 3600 Io now and you end up playing with pretty much all people from btag even when queing lfg
I run keys with guild peeps, and tell them ahead of time “I will dominate any single incorp, and wait for it on double incorp.” And they still CC them everysingletime. It’s frustrating.
I'm assuming you've told them this directly and pointed it out when it happens again, in which case I'd probably start trying to find other people to run with. Assuming you haven't told them directly, there you go.
lmao why are you crying about this... it doesnt really matter, as long as they get cc... in most of my pugs most people do not take cc
Do you have the group CC WA somewhere?
Also one of the biggest reasons its hard to get better while pugging are the people who join your key and after one wipe will say "gg" then leave.
So I should start or be in a "team" to play me some mythic+ with no reward? Fuck no. I'd rather not be a virgin. Lfg is just fine.
great video. I get that finding ppl to play with will help my situation, however i find it increadible difficult to actually find a "team". im stuck at just below 3500, and its close to impossible to get invited to groups/keys that i can actually benefit from. is finding a "team" the only way i will ever improve?
I got to 3k pugging, but +23 is about my limit to avoid going into bad runs and depleted keys. Feeling judged all the time while trying to do your best is not good for learning as you say. Even worse are try-hards who insist on pulling in some pro way, or expect you to do some fancy move in a PuG, and then quit when it doesn't work out.
Actually pugging helps if you have your prio straight, pugging doesnt allow for optimized plays but it forces the player to master their own individual plays. For eg, if you only play dps pugging, switch over to heal or tank, it will be tilting sometimes but trust me, it will refine your dungeon knowledge and help you be a better you. Its actually a good start...
Teach me how to not suck in a 28+ pug team as a tank
28 tott ❤
As a DK tank
As a dk tank you will not be invited to 28 tott. An advice I can give is be a vengeance dh.
Really helpful video, thanks!
Biggest advantage is to play with like-minded individuals where everyone understands what to do and knows what the game plan is. There is such a thing as over communication - too much shot calling/talking is disruptive and always causes more problems than solves.
I have to disagree with your 1st point. Speaking as a healer - if I’m in a group with bad pugs it forces me to play better to try and carry the group. Between getting all the important stops , dealing with the affix and being able to respond to unexpected damage events improves performance when you finally run with a competent pug everything feels easier
Thanks. I agree. I think you inadvertently build-in compensations to your game when in a pug. Long term that will cause a plateau. Very insightful. Thank you.
I understand why he said it, but I kind of disagree with the first point about pugs. Yes, if you're going to push the highest keys possible, you need a solid group and you need repeatable results, absolutely true. And I think that's why he said it. But I think improving at anything is about challenging yourself, and pugs can sure be a challenge. Being thrown into chaotic, sub-optimal situations forces you to get creative in ways a solid, high pushing group doesn't. Moreover, I have at least at some anecdotal evidence that I don't learn something until it affects me. If I have a solid group of players that have always taken care of X, then I'll never learn what X is or how to handle it. I see this a lot in players going from normal to heroic raids a lot. They're solid players in normal, they put up the numbers, but other people always handle mechanics for them. Then you get to Heroic and the same mechanic requires everyone do it at some point and they fall to pieces. I guess TL:DR pugs can put you outside your comfort zone and that's a good time to learn.
I get the point it's better to play with a fixed team ; but it's really hard to find a group... I pretty much waste every season pugging until i'm fed up and I give up playing and trying to find people. I've pretty much tried everything available to find people but it's really hard. If anyone have advice on somewhere I can find a group, it would help
All I do is pug and I hate it stuck at 3.3k as a prot/dps warrior
Don’t quit caffeine or be really sick and play keys. I learned that this week. Minus 10 key levels instantly. Plus LFG can be super toxic.
As A DH i always play Mortal Dance on sanguine weeks and i always play the Slow Glaives talent in the class tree for them angry Bobby Kotic ghosts weeks.
It's pretty rough tbh, even around the 18-23 range people still dont know all the mechanics/dont have things like invis as I've come to discover in my alt keys. Then, once you progress further you enter the territory of spending all day in group finder.
It's a lose lose for competitive people who dont have time for premades. Cant chill and do medium keys because half the players are actual bots and no one likes spending all day in lfg.
Would love to play with a fixed team. None of my friends were interested in doing anything beyond 18 to 20's. I had to pug 20's and 21's. I ended up giving up as I was unable to find good groups reliably. I had to pug every key over 19. I am not great at making friends and the single biggest stress for me is simply finding ppl to play with. I have walked away from the game many times because I have no one to do mid level keys with. Oh everyone of my friends is happy to do a 16 to 19 but complete zero interest in anything higher.
I've been in many groups with comms. And usually end up being bricked. 😅
Just adding 5 people without the points you listed won't change anything, however if you add 4-5 people who want to get better at the game then it will make a huge difference.
As per the points you mentioned I feel that there is a huge issue with FOTM rerollers. Being a FOTM reroller doesn't mean anything, in fact you can be a great player, however based on my experience in 26-27 keys those players are the reason why keys fail most of the time. The most egoistic, but least knowledgable players. The other thing is self reflection. I have had numerous pug keys where I was far the highest interrupter / CC-er / Affix handler but due to others not interrupting and cc-ing (+ healer re-realizing when or how to heal) I died --> obviously DPS loss. In the end sometimes these people whisper me and say "nice overall" or "wtf [insert class name]", etc even if marginally lower. I learned to shrug it off, since when I'm at 45 interrupt and a 3.5k rogue is at 1, then I cannot care lesser that he is able to survive therefore doing more DPS. But for some reason these people never take a look at the overall picture, they overly simplify the formula:
Am I the highest DPS = I'm good, nothing else matters. So doing 20-30k more dps justifies the 1 cc, 1 interrupt and 20k overall more dmg taken than me.
Just had a lovely 26 Rise where 3450 tank (VDH) literally couldn't group trash mobs, used all CC-s withing 7 seconds (even though there was no danger), constantly turned Tyr even though group moved really well, semi-wiped us on Battleground, actively tried to hit melee dps with tank frontal on morchie and wiped us 2x on because he died out of nowhere. But due to high DPS we still had a real chance until on last he killed my friend because he realized Deios should be moved. Thankfully he blamed my friend for inting the key. When I tried to explain the tank what he did wrong he replied in such a great way "haha, just let me know when you are at 3450 noob". So until you can get 3450 with
1. being not knowledgable about the dungeon
2. not understanding how your class / specs / role works
3. You get invited because you are a tank and there is still huge demand and eventually you time keys --> more score --> more invite
Then I think there won't be any real change. In my opinion there should be some statistics added to RIO such as CC-s done, affix done, interrupts with some extra statistics e.g. "average interrupt / key" (with filter for dungeon and key level) and I can guarantee many people would struggle to expoit the system, but would reward those who actively try to help their group :)
I really can't disagree that Pugging & LFG is bad because there are so many bad players out there that it's impossible to know how to improve.
I'm a tank player myself and i always get blamed for not having aggro, but when i look at my recordings then there are just rushing ahead and ninjapulling which doesn't make it any easier for us tanks and we kind of have to use 1-2 abilities before the dps can use their cds.
Same thing actually goes for healers. People like to point out how bad the healers are in the groups but then the people themselves never actually stun, interrupt or even use defensives.
Wish there were better tools for finding consistent groups as a dps, trying to pug the hardest challenge is just getting in. Right now I have the easy 28s and the hard 27s, so i dont have the io to do the easy 29s but also not to do the hard 28s so im just in queue for hours.
That's why i stopped playing the game, i have no issue doing any mechanic in M+, but because i don't want to stick with consistent groups and i only have time to pug, i get f'ed by that. Pugs are dead past certain key, going to a 24 and seen the tank pulling 4-5 different packs group when bolstering is acting and having him and the rest of the group be unaware of that fact + we don't have as many CC to deal with so many casts in between our CCs' CDs + defensives which will do nothing when the last mobs are bolstered for up to 12-14 times (yep..) and people get spawn dying trying to go back to engage with bolstered mobs is absolutely insane and that's a..."normal thing" i had seen happen over 12 groups in the same night of trying to do a single 24 key.
Even without bolstering the other fact about CC still stands and is still an issue, as a main healer i just gave up.
Damn, as a mage a list of what to prio interrupts on and why would be tight af. Kinda just focus on the most devastating casts wild shit like wildfire or water bolts are going off and it feels like shit lol
Out of all the comments I'm the only one who understands tettles and the message he's relaying lol
I kind of have to disagree with the first point. Yes you will perform better if you can play with the same group and get better at doing what is specifically asked of you in that group. But at the same time you will also just not be as well rounded of a player. You will become less aware of certain mechanics because your group allows you to not worry about them.
Beside whether or not it makes you better is kind of irrelevant since ultimately most people simply don't have the choice to begin with.
Well not worrying about every single mechanic is how the game is supposed to be played. Thats why you have 5 ppl so everyone can do their part. In pugs you just learn to try and watch everything because all your teammates are monkeys. Agree that most people can’t find a stable group even if they try.
@@icswack6015 It's not necessarily having to worry about every single mechanic at the same time. Playing with pugs does lead to some inefficient gameplay and bad habits because of that. But even if you could play with multiple push groups with slightly different comps / strats that's going to make you a more well rounded player.
Something as simple as your group always skips that one pack and now you forget exactly what it even does. Or you play with a rogue and because you always shroud aren't aware of all the different ways you can skip certain packs.
That's before getting into how you can start to rely on your teammates too much. If you always play with a VDH and then play with the best PPala in the world you are going to suck a little.
#1 enemy of pugging is people who judges.
Havent watched the video yet but i must say this. Use Nameplates and use your interuppts and you get far. And dungeon weakaura are nice to have besides DBM.
Wow, advice from inside the elite bubble. It’s like saying the way to make more money is to get a higher paying job. Real helpful. 🙄
I disagree with the first point, and would go as far as to say it is the other way around.
I like to think about it as acting, where going as a premade team is just following the script, but pugging is impro.
It is very clear to me when I get someone that rarely pugs in my group, as they will often have no idea how to adjust or deal with all the unexpected shit that can happen. As soon as we go off script, they just don't know what to do or get mad. They are too used to their set routes, and having their set team that has their back.
In pugs you also get to see more players than if you just stick to your team. Sometimes someone does something you and your friends may not have thought of doing. So exposing yourself to more people increases the chances of picking up more tricks.
You are right that you will get further with a team, but pugging is a great way to learn how to improvise. So I would not say it is harmful to your play, quite the opposite actually. I say pug a lot and learn from it, then bring that with you to push as a team, but don't abandon pugging thinking it's bad for you.
That said, if someone is like Tettles here, with a decent network of people and quite up to date with what people are doing, then pugging might not teach you as much, but most of us are not like that.
Pugging beyond weekly keys is insanity to me, rather be a titleless loser than suffer that torment.
It’s not realistic advice to tell people not to pug. Us normies have no other options. I focus on (1) optimizing how I pick the most potentially successful groups in LFG & (2) becoming the best player I can be to help carry bad groups.
I have a significantly better chance to succeed doing those 2 things while pugging, rather than constantly trying & failing to find a consistent group to play with.
Pugging has taught me how to do more than just my role & play better so that I can carry bad players when they’re unfortunately in the key. I also learn new strats that I wouldn’t see if I played with the same group every day.
Never felt so attacked by a title screen lol
So step one
Get friends
Shit
Man! That hair is really going to start a trend among wowplayers! Fashionista!
As stated LFG is the worst for improvement. You learn nothing from it and everyone in the party can potentially throw a key by accident. You'll always be nothing more than a name and a number. A lot of the time the group just simply doesn't work and it's not even anyone's fault. Also almost no one in there ever wants legitimate progression. They want a carry regardless of their skill level. There is a noticeable amount of people with really big heads that can do no wrong in there as well. It's good for making you feel like a useless piece of garbage though. I stopped at 22s because it's not worth it now.
Was about to say, I'm doing 27s and I don't expect a carry EVER. I always expect to carry and thats a good mind set to have going into pugs, you are the main character and you should play like your team isn't gunna do much and then after the first few pulls you'll know how much you gotta carry.
I do that too. It just feels like you need max gear a meta class and 200 more score than the group lead to get an invite for low 20s making progression near impossible. I may have had a worse than usual experience though. I've seen guys leave before starting because everyone in the group only a had the key timed 1 lower including the leaver.
Title and thumbnail game on point.
The things you are talking about are true in theory but not in practice. You can do the highest keys while pugging and you don’t even need to be very good. You just need to play a meta class, play all day every day and eventually if you are at least decent player you will get to the highest possible pug keys. Example: all the disappointingly average mage pugs that are around 3750-3.8k rio this season. I played havoc, got to 3.6k and stopped getting invites. Rerolled to ret and got 3750 in 3 weeks of starting the toon. Did I become a better player? No and I even believe I am better havoc than ret so that should give ppl an idea of how high score is done. Play all day, play meta boys
First point was so true.
As a healer, I disagree with your first point. It's important to pug to test what you can and can't do. To feel what stressful damage intake is like. There is literally no better training for healer than to pug keys. Also not a single time did you mention Stat balancing like hello.
Title and thumbnail are 🔥
I gotta admit the self assessment thing is actually huge imo
Each time you finish a dungeon, as your tank or healer how do they think you did, specially if you tank or heal!!!
You will be surprised what constructive criticism you get, sometimes is something so out of your mind that it will absolutely smack you in the face when you hear it and if you don't have the balls to check yourself with others then you are THAT giy always blaming others for your own blind failures
Never seen your videos, this is my first one and it made me subscribe. Clear and concise explanations and great advice. Thanks for the tips!
So in order to "be good" I have to know every single talent in my build and how it synergizes with my other talents in every way, all other party members abilities, every trash encounter, every boss encounter, every kick and stun and blessing and hack and tech, have all the right add ons and weak auras and have them perfectly configured, know keybindings like my kids lives depend on it, have a perfectly laid out and hyper efficient hud to minimize wasteful eye movement, never hesitate, have dead balls accuracy, have the reflexes of a cat on crack, watch recordings of myself, run sims on myself with every piece of gear in every situation, and have a solid group of dependable gamers that show up and have mastered all of the attributes listed above. All of this and THEN I'll be good? Where does fun come into this equation? If I'm working this hard I better be getting paid six figures for it. I've said it before, people take this game way too seriously and completely lose perspective.
Some people find the chase of improvement fun and have an innate desire to push for perfection. It's okay you don't find that fun! This isnt intended for you!
🤔 Uhh, yes? To be good at something, you need to know what you’re doing. This isn’t a hot take.
WoW is no longer a video game anymore. This is unfair time consumer which requires from u extra efforts & knowledge and your reward will be - timed 25 key (or even lower) for nothing and silent people in a group (instead of flaming you for failing mechs and leaving then). It is as it is 🤷♀️
@@Gaius_Sinstone knowing what you are doing and having everything this community deems as required to "be good" are two different things. Knowing what you are doing in a game is fun, what they are describing is an unpaid job or, honestly, an addiction. You get that awesome feeling from the first time you two chest a 20, so you fine tune and watch video and spend hours and hours to chase that rabbit, that feeling of accomplishment you got from that first pop of a m+20. Only to realize that no matter what you do it doesn't feel as good, but you keep trying and studying and siming and not letting things like people and sunlight stop you from getting to 3.5k io. Once you hit that THEN you'll be good. THEN you'll be worthy...
@@LeoSpaceman2012 if it feels like a job, you’re probably doing content that’s too difficult for you. You can be a great player at your level. Maybe stop trying to compete in content you just don’t need to be doing.
You’re comparing yourself to others instead of having fun doing the level of content that you can actually excel at.
I dont suck at m+ 😡
I find it annoying that in high keys people end up doing dumb tactics like jumping on that ledge in AD (around 8:50 in the video). I understand why they do it but I feel like it's not how the game was designed to be played. I'm not a purist or anything, but I feel like it takes away from the spirit of the game (for lack of a better term).
"Pugging is bad"
Well no shit. But i've been trying to get into a team for the first two months of the season as resto shaman, and people were either just quitting on first failed key or not showing up at all for the next m+ session, or just failing really bad for the level of they keys we've been attempting.
I've exclusively pugged to most 25s/26s and i'm stuck at trying to get into 27s simply because i'm not getting invited to any keys at all, because i play resto shaman. I know for a fact that with a PMA and coordinated team i'd definitely heal some 28s.
I'm now fine with the fact that 26s are my ceiling, i'd rather play some other game than either play the queue simulator for an hour just to be invited to one key, or gambling keys with random people who die with all their defensives off cd.
My point is that there is no easy solution (or sometimes none at all) to the "pugging is bad" situation, there are players stuck in the lfg purgatory that could easily play their role at 3-4 higher key levels than their current.
knowing how to trick the mages in dawn of infinite so you get the MDI win from losers bracket
mainly because a lot of people blame MDI/esports for not getting invited to groups instead of ever trying to improve ;D
Can you tell me how to improve as a 3.7k havoc dh when nobody would invite me to a key ever because there is vdh in every group? Because I think my best course of improvement to reroll to another class.
Late to the party, sorry. Tets, I know you want more and you should be demanding more from Blizzard in terms of the higher, more complex and refined aspects of playing WoW....but most people don't care and won't do what you tell them. The RWF/MDI crowd has set a very high bar for most players and it cannot be replicated to have your guys exact same performance. It just can't. To me, this last RWF is and will always be peak WoW and from here it's all going doooooownnnnnnnnn
I understand wanting to teach people on how to self reflect, research, make better and informed decisions, but most people aren't going to do that, because it's just too much.
But I get it. I do. This game, especially for the RWF/MDI whatever top performers, is great and I'm happy for you, but most people are miserable with the current state of retail WoW.
It's just what it is. Blizzard lost the sauce and they won't get it back, Metzen, Hazzikostas or otherwise. It'll still be fine, and numbers will fluctuate from season to season, but the engagement with the broader community won't be there and this is just going to be a steady, very slow decline and that's fine too if I really think about it.
I also understand that this game, again, for your crowd, is your job, but as this video went on I finally realized, after 10 or so odd years, that WoW's main driving force (RWF/MDI) are completely out of touch with the broad sentiment of players.....and that's a tough pill to swallow
Both Retail and Classic versions of WoW have become hunting grounds for top parse/raid leader prospects and I'm not the target audience, so yeah I'll spend my time and resources elsewhere, being more productive.
nice clickbait. 15 min of talking without saying anything usefull xD
Nobody sucks at M+ and it's not even hard. The hardest part about M+ is getting into a group.
Dude makes enough money playing wow and doing podcasts to live in downtown Chicago? I'm jealous.
I love you tettles
Love you
The reason you suck at mythic plus is trying to learn something from Tettles.
Bro, don't call Spriest to CC the incorporeal, obviously better for them to DPS and these scrubs to CC.
I don’t think the wowhead guide is accurate, take bm hunter for example, they recommmend haste and mastery, but it should be crit/haste/mastery balanced. Meh
bro said dont pug like i got friends xD
I will start by saying: I am sorry, did not watch the video, but just wanted to post this one comment, here we go ...
"Sorry, no legendary, not gonna play with you" 😂😂 Hard to get into 28 or higher keys without RNG on your side when you are pugging only => Hard to get more experience in higher endgame.
1.) play with really good players… man I hadn’t thought of that before!
Yea its like if I had any friends playing this game at my level I would never have thought of that before tettles tells me to play with them! Thanks!
how? how do you get people to play with? i dont get this... everyone is saying that pugging sucks, yet not a single content creator is able to tell his audience how get people to play with? do i have to join a mythic raid? do i have to quit my job so that i can be online the entire day? is there a secret list of discords where i just need to magically get inveted to find people? because i can tell you pugging all the way up to 27s my brother and i haven't met a single player in over 300 runs that was good and wanted to play with us. you have the wronf classes you have the wrong online times you dont have raid loot...every season is the same. so please someone for once make a guide or whatever and tell people how you should get away from pugging hell
You absolutely don't have to quit your job and be chronically online.
The easiest way of doing this honestly is forming groups with people you're already friends with that are also interested in M+. Just ask kinda what people's availability is and be like "yeah so we play Saturday at 6pm." These can be friends from your raid, can be friends you've known for a while, can be people you met in LFG and now have a good rapport with.
You have you and your brother which is definitely the best starting point. I'd also recommend adding people to btag after runs or just generally asking people if they want to keep going once you see successful play from a pretty good player. Additionally pushing people to get into voice with you for the runs you do allows you to bulid more of a friendship with people and it makes them more inclined to play with you for successive runs.
It's like getting a gf or a job. Youre 100x more likely to get one if you already have one or had one recently.
If you have no network you're probably just screwed.
'uhh just message people who are good in pugs and try to make friends or something idk' is the only real advice they can give that isn't 'just already have friends who are good bro.'
@@illiberalautist2222 Yeah, fundamentally it comes down to building a network of people that you know are good. You're not screwed though as there are a lot of steps that you can take to bulid up a network of people (and meet new ones in the process!).
@@Tettles yeah I was exaggerating. It's a big thing with new player experience that people ignore. People focus on complexity and leveling and all that and forget the biggest thing that new players need is for the game to help them find friends to play with instead of shuffling them into random pugs.
Well thats at least a starting Point. So i Wanne add people to my bnet and ask them for Future days, noted. But how do you Guys manage the days and which Players you gathered? To you have a planning Tool or a spreadsheet or how does that Work?
For discord: i noticed people Like to leave because " ITS a dead Server" ( Just about 30 people). Someone Gott a Tipp how to Combat that?
Oh also Miks Scrolling Combat text+WA HUD is goated. Mik's reports all your CDs and crap on the screen in text, it's really good.
its shit, it blocks so much of your screen. much better having it disabled. you dont need to see the dmg or healing coming out
Why are you focused on what big crit is coming next instead of focusing on mechanics in front of you? Damage numbers are useless. And you also have details for later too
Just play good and dont play bad, its easy.
That doesn’t work bruh. What if you always play good but the pugs always play bad? Same result always deplete
oh yes i forgot that finding people to play with is a viable option when playing a warrior without a legendary 4 months into the patch , good one
i dont suck :(
Boomkin one trick
Wildly tone deaf and just not remotely close to usable when tip 1 is find a fixed group of players..
As someone who has pugged up to 3600 and sometimes plays with a set of 3 players pugging 2 players, this is also just... not correct?
Puging and relying on yourself will force you to learn all forms of utility and things you can do to make every mob and boss smoother even if it is suboptimal in some fixed comps.
You have a cute cat
rocking that Trump toupee
Everything takes time sorry instant gratification doesn't apply here lol
Know your role
The biggest issue is DPS that can't even come close to their SIM DPS there is so many shitters at this game.
I usually love your content man, but this is a person who does highly m+ being completely out of touch of the main player base