A major issue with the Warthog base was its plastic ball and socket joint, which over time tended to pick up debris and lead to something called "stiction". There are solutions to this, but the metal construction of the Ava, makes it a far more attractive proposition. My Warthog stick base is over 8 years old and I have perhaps been lucky in that I've only just started noticing the stiction, mainly when I'm letting the stick come back to neutral, between 80kts and 100kts on the A320 take-off roll.
@@TrueBlade-1889 I really like mine, especially with it's ability to be easily modified, with detent inserts, which is handy for the airbus series. I also fly DCS and the throttle, as you'd expect, works exceptionally well for the A10C and is also good for the F18, F16 and other fighters. To be fair, it's the only throttle I've had, so it would be very brave of me to recommend it above any of the other throttles out there, but it works for me. ;)
Thrustmaster are the lsat ones to the party, Virpil, Winwing and VKB have been in this space for years, and let’s be honest anything from a Warthog gimbal is a step up
I think the stick wobble is because of the Warthog/F-16 grip being made of metal... if it was like a plastic one like say a Airbus grip.. it would have wobled less because of the less mass that's above the pivot point.
I think it's mostly because there is virtually no friction to dampen the motion. The warthog base has the same grip and you don't get that wobbling with that base. I have a virpil stick which is built around the same principle as this and I also had this problem at the start. You get used to it quickly.
Any static 'wobble' is actually in the grip and is a result of play between the grip extrusions and the central rod going to the circular bottom fixing. Dismantle and use some metal epoxy to fix the central rod in place and a smear on the top to ensure an interference fit. Dynamically you'd never just let go of the stick and experience spring wobble. I had that issue with my F18 grip but not with the A10. The AVA base is brilliant. I use Jet cam with medium springs.
FFB sticks start at over $500 for just the base. The one I got was closer to $1000. This base is right in line price-wise with other cam and spring style joystick bases.
@@b34k97 I could be wrong but that feels like a massive rip-off to me. Why is the starting price so high? The force feedback only needs to be fairly basic, mainly for takeoff and landing. It's more about immersion with flight sims.. you don’t need advanced direct drive FFB for that. Yet the price is the same as a direct drive FFB wheel. Similarly, why is this £250? It’s essentially just an empty box with some cogs and springs! There’s certainly not twice the value compared to the standard Warthog base. They should’ve at least added a couple of motors for vibration and basic FFB. That would’ve been more of an upgrade and made the higher price tag a bit more justifiable.
@@pumpkineater23 So there's a lot to unpack here, but I'm going to do my best to answer. The FFB Bases on the current market (i.e. not your 25 year old MS Sidewinder) are built for use center mount with extensions (usually 20cm). So these require large and powerful motors to produce enough force on such a long lever. Sticks also require 2 motors, one for each axis, instead of the 1 that a Direct Drive wheel would use, so that also increases the cost. The top choices on the market today are pretty much Brunner CLS-E (expensive, poorer specs), Moza AB9 (newest, with great specs and great price) and VPForce Rhino (essentially a single guy in Lithuania DIYing them with over 1000 sold now.... Beefy motors, and amazing software and support). As for effects, they do a lot more than a bit on takeoff and landing. My favorite plane right now is the P51D and its got a wide range of effects. There's rumble effects as you rev the engine or roll down the runway. There's thumping as you raise the gear or release a bomb or jettison a tank. You can feel vibrations as you fire your gun, or when the gear or canopy are in motion. However, there's also telemetry based effects which are fantastic. The stick gets hard to pull as your airspeed increases and your G's got to 6+ (mine maxes out at ~3kg at the trigger). On the other end, if you try to turn to sharply and are about to stall, the stick responds by violently shuddering side to side. Also, if your airspeed drops down to say 90kts, your sick goes limp as you lose control authority in the sim until you can get your airspeed back up. Yeah it was expensive, but it's added so much to the experience. Now back to the AVA base in this review. There's two elements making it significantly better (and more costly) than the Warthog. First, the design: it's a much more complex gimbal design, allowing you to separate the motion, tension, and feel in the X and Y axis. It's got way more moving parts than the simple ball and spring the Warthog uses, and far more customization options as well. It probably took Thrustmaster some serious $ in R&D to create and bring to market. Secondly, there's components. If it's anything like the similar offerings from Virpil or VKB, there was a lot of hand machining done to create the all-metal parts that make up the base. This includes precision smoothing with defined profile of the cams (the parts that allow for the soft center but heavy extremes on the axis). It's all premium parts: ball-bearings, contactless sensors, machine screws, etc with these bases. Honestly, if you've tried the Warthog, then try this base, you'll realize it's totally wort a price premium over the Warthog. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't an argument to be made that the Warthog base is overpriced for what it is.... but as it stands, the market seems to be supporting the Warthog's current price point.
@@b34k97Ok, thanks for the insight. You clearly know more about this than I do. I have the standard Warthog and was a bit disappointed to realise this base is essentially doing the same thing. If I were to upgrade, I'd probably invest in a FFB base instead, but as you pointed out, I haven't actually tried this one yet. Cheers.
My first HOTAS was an entry-level X56 but then, for General Aviation, I bought the Honeycomb Alpha (yoke), Bravo (throttle quadrant) and I just recently received my Charlie (pedals). But for air combat (piston and jet), I have the Thrustmaster Warthog and TPR pedals. My only complaint was the throttle of the Warthog HOTAS. The two bottom left iron switches only work in one position. That was the moment I received them so I complained and they said I had to return it for repair - when instead they should have sent out a brand new item because they shipped a faulty item. Then, someone on the forums told me, that's how every Thrustmaster Warthog is. I only just came across your channel and wanted to thank you for the AVA review. I knew it came out but I had no idea what it was. What would have been good (perhaps for a Part 2 video) is a comparison of data from the non-AVA and AVA base. So, for example, you make the exact same manoeuvres but we'd see the input of the two, side-by-side on your screen.
Thrustmaster just catching up with technology when everyone moving to FFB now, you have virpil/ winwing ect been doing what thrustmaster done for few years now.
I like it and for a bit i wanted one. Base is £250 and moza FFB is £550. It's too hard to pass on ffb for £300 more. They really needed this to be too good to refuse, price wise.
The Ava looks like a solid update/upgrade verses the Warthog, but that came out in 2010. TM has been coasting on brand recognition and milking a largely stagnant product line for way too long, while multiple competitors are generations ahead of the "new" AVA already. TM isn't even trying to compete on price so just seems like more shameless brand-bait at $299.
I have the honeycomb yoke and use it to fly airbus and helicopters and im the market for a joystick. Im thinking the thrustmaster airbus or the Winwing one. Idk what to chose
Well if you want to get rid of that warthog base I’m new to fs and currently trying to get a decent set up. I’m liking your content on a thorough review.
I know this is a newby question, but how does this base deal with controller drift? It's a huge problem that I'm constantly dealing with on my (much cheaper) Thrustmaster. This might not be an issue with how the electrical connection is established, but, otherwise, is there a way to adjust it physically? Also, are there mounting holes?
Drift will most likely be caused by a "dirty"/"noisy" axis, where it generates signals that make the PC think that the control has been moved. this stick really shouldn't generate any such noise and if it does, it'd need to be RMA'd. As for mounting holes, I am told that it shares the same pattern as the ones for the Warthog stick base, which along with the compatibility with all of the warthog grips, makes it an excellent candidate for a 1-to-1 swap with the warthog base.
Which thrustmaster do you have? Drift should be a non-issue on any stick that uses a magnetic, contact-less sensor, like this, the original Warthog, and even the Airbus and t16000m sticks.
I got the Warthog base for £50 off eBay....Pay £50 or pay £250...no brainer really. Can relate to the graduation of flight stick, just moved up from the Airbus one myself.
It's been months now and still all of the Offset adapters are out of stock already since launch, and still no word on the adjustable dampers. I would Hold off on buying this. I am Pissed I bought it now. How could they have miss judged the number of offset adapters would sell. And why does it take so long for them to make more, they are just plastic!!!
Great video, and really tempted to by, when i find a decent steering tiller to replace the lack of YAW in this and the Warthog sticks. Fed up with the lightweight cheapie thrustmaster TCA.
The WinWing Ursa Minor Airline stick may be for you. Hall sensors, adjustable dampening, Z axis for tiller. Very much a nice upgrade over the Thrustmaster TCA.
why not force sensor, that can adjusting sensitive itself, and with that they can add regulate moving range without changing anything. there can be adjusting dampers and even lockers... with force sensors there no matter actually how it moves and even if it doesn't moves. with that it can be created universal thing that can be even moved itself with ffb active, with disabled ffb it can be adjusted for be anything like for ga, or liner, ww2 fighters, aerobatic, modern fighters, force sensor like f-16 have... one base for literally everything is possible in theory... for ffb moves and sensors adjusting have to be dynamic and depend of airflow around aircraft. without ffb it can use any manually adjusted sensor sensitivity and move range/force... why they still do all separate... one guys does only ffb, other guys only force sensors slightly moving grips, 3rd guys still make that zero sense spring back to center old school moving grips... force sensors exist, in sim world, tens years already... and if use that with all current technical ability one base can do literally anything in sim world
Do you not find the sitting Left seat in your sim but having the TQ on your left and your stick on your right really off putting and immersion breaking?
No one offers ffb at this range. What are you talking about? All these types of bases that provide a good center feel are around the same price. Moza has a FFB unit coming out far more expensive than this. You might need to do some research.
I am still using my Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 after all these years. But I don't get any FF effects in MSFS apart from the resistance in the stick itself.
I mean honestly this is as expensive as a Virpil Warbird or VKB Gunfighter... it doesn't have the dry clutch that both of those bases have, and it's not entirely metal like those bases are... You're stuck with the notoriously cheap Thrustmaster electronics - how many of us have Thrustmaster gear stuck in boot mode cause the PROMs magically flashed itself? - and you have to deal with Guillemot's notoriously bad customer service when it inevitably does fry. The AVA base competes negatively with two products that have a five plus year history of design improvements and large ecosystems of grips, extensions, and mounts... and it does it in 2024 when the high end of the joystick market is moving on to force feedback joysticks. It may be a decent base, but it's behind the curve and too expensive for what it is.
Exactly, this is just too little, too late. But it is kinda cool that vkb, virpil and the rest have finally forced the big boys to fix their horrible gimbals.
Not likely flashing themselves. Hall Sensors must be used regularly. If left for a few months they lose Capacitence for Calibration and need resetting. That is what electric gear does. Same for home PIR Sensors for lights and also Bathroom Extractor Fans which need a push to get the Capacitor Starter to run again and charge up. Life lessons here.
The warthog base IS bad. Cheap plastic gimbal with lots of torsional play and stiction. This varies greatly due to poor production tolerances. I got really unlucky with mine.
No, they sure isnt messing around and havent been for a decade. Now there make a new base unite and wow, we are so happe and a new throttle F-16, wow, Thrustmaster. Sorry, but Thrustmaster is dead on my desktop years ago. TO LITTLE PROGRESS FOR SURE. Winwing, Virpil and others sure have put Thrustmaster back in the line up for sure....
A major issue with the Warthog base was its plastic ball and socket joint, which over time tended to pick up debris and lead to something called "stiction". There are solutions to this, but the metal construction of the Ava, makes it a far more attractive proposition. My Warthog stick base is over 8 years old and I have perhaps been lucky in that I've only just started noticing the stiction, mainly when I'm letting the stick come back to neutral, between 80kts and 100kts on the A320 take-off roll.
How is the Warthog throttle ? Still on Amazon for 220 GBP.
@@TrueBlade-1889 I really like mine, especially with it's ability to be easily modified, with detent inserts, which is handy for the airbus series. I also fly DCS and the throttle, as you'd expect, works exceptionally well for the A10C and is also good for the F18, F16 and other fighters. To be fair, it's the only throttle I've had, so it would be very brave of me to recommend it above any of the other throttles out there, but it works for me. ;)
My next base upgrade will be FFB. I don't understand why they're releasing this now.
what ffb base will you get?
what programs and aircraft would you like to fly in ffb?
An FFB base will be twice the cost. That's why.
@@TrueBlade-1889 Still, WinWing and Virpil had Spring & Cam bases for 5 years now so why release it so late?
@jonssmohr Bettwr lare than never ?
TM don't specialise in flightsim gear. Guess it's not high on their list of Ps
Reminds me of a Virpil CM3 base. Except the Virpil has a dry clutch / damper which completely eliminates that wobble.
Thrustmaster are the lsat ones to the party, Virpil, Winwing and VKB have been in this space for years, and let’s be honest anything from a Warthog gimbal is a step up
I think the stick wobble is because of the Warthog/F-16 grip being made of metal... if it was like a plastic one like say a Airbus grip.. it would have wobled less because of the less mass that's above the pivot point.
I think it's mostly because there is virtually no friction to dampen the motion. The warthog base has the same grip and you don't get that wobbling with that base.
I have a virpil stick which is built around the same principle as this and I also had this problem at the start. You get used to it quickly.
It wouldn't really wobble less, just faster. It oscillates because there's no damper.
Any static 'wobble' is actually in the grip and is a result of play between the grip extrusions and the central rod going to the circular bottom fixing. Dismantle and use some metal epoxy to fix the central rod in place and a smear on the top to ensure an interference fit. Dynamically you'd never just let go of the stick and experience spring wobble. I had that issue with my F18 grip but not with the A10. The AVA base is brilliant. I use Jet cam with medium springs.
Shouldn't have to do this with a 500 quid stick.
Using glue is a joke.
@TrueBlade-1889 It must have been bad luck on production tolerances as the original A10 stick has zero slop.
Looking at it, and bearing in mind the cost, I assumed this was going to be a review of a FFB flightstick base. Did Thrustmaster miss a trick here?
FFB sticks start at over $500 for just the base. The one I got was closer to $1000. This base is right in line price-wise with other cam and spring style joystick bases.
@@b34k97 I could be wrong but that feels like a massive rip-off to me. Why is the starting price so high? The force feedback only needs to be fairly basic, mainly for takeoff and landing. It's more about immersion with flight sims.. you don’t need advanced direct drive FFB for that. Yet the price is the same as a direct drive FFB wheel. Similarly, why is this £250? It’s essentially just an empty box with some cogs and springs! There’s certainly not twice the value compared to the standard Warthog base. They should’ve at least added a couple of motors for vibration and basic FFB. That would’ve been more of an upgrade and made the higher price tag a bit more justifiable.
@@pumpkineater23 So there's a lot to unpack here, but I'm going to do my best to answer. The FFB Bases on the current market (i.e. not your 25 year old MS Sidewinder) are built for use center mount with extensions (usually 20cm). So these require large and powerful motors to produce enough force on such a long lever. Sticks also require 2 motors, one for each axis, instead of the 1 that a Direct Drive wheel would use, so that also increases the cost. The top choices on the market today are pretty much Brunner CLS-E (expensive, poorer specs), Moza AB9 (newest, with great specs and great price) and VPForce Rhino (essentially a single guy in Lithuania DIYing them with over 1000 sold now.... Beefy motors, and amazing software and support).
As for effects, they do a lot more than a bit on takeoff and landing. My favorite plane right now is the P51D and its got a wide range of effects. There's rumble effects as you rev the engine or roll down the runway. There's thumping as you raise the gear or release a bomb or jettison a tank. You can feel vibrations as you fire your gun, or when the gear or canopy are in motion. However, there's also telemetry based effects which are fantastic. The stick gets hard to pull as your airspeed increases and your G's got to 6+ (mine maxes out at ~3kg at the trigger). On the other end, if you try to turn to sharply and are about to stall, the stick responds by violently shuddering side to side. Also, if your airspeed drops down to say 90kts, your sick goes limp as you lose control authority in the sim until you can get your airspeed back up. Yeah it was expensive, but it's added so much to the experience.
Now back to the AVA base in this review. There's two elements making it significantly better (and more costly) than the Warthog. First, the design: it's a much more complex gimbal design, allowing you to separate the motion, tension, and feel in the X and Y axis. It's got way more moving parts than the simple ball and spring the Warthog uses, and far more customization options as well. It probably took Thrustmaster some serious $ in R&D to create and bring to market. Secondly, there's components. If it's anything like the similar offerings from Virpil or VKB, there was a lot of hand machining done to create the all-metal parts that make up the base. This includes precision smoothing with defined profile of the cams (the parts that allow for the soft center but heavy extremes on the axis). It's all premium parts: ball-bearings, contactless sensors, machine screws, etc with these bases.
Honestly, if you've tried the Warthog, then try this base, you'll realize it's totally wort a price premium over the Warthog. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't an argument to be made that the Warthog base is overpriced for what it is.... but as it stands, the market seems to be supporting the Warthog's current price point.
@@b34k97Ok, thanks for the insight. You clearly know more about this than I do. I have the standard Warthog and was a bit disappointed to realise this base is essentially doing the same thing. If I were to upgrade, I'd probably invest in a FFB base instead, but as you pointed out, I haven't actually tried this one yet. Cheers.
@@pumpkineater23 once you go FFB, there’s no going back.
I wish they would make a grip with a twist input.
My first HOTAS was an entry-level X56 but then, for General Aviation, I bought the Honeycomb Alpha (yoke), Bravo (throttle quadrant) and I just recently received my Charlie (pedals). But for air combat (piston and jet), I have the Thrustmaster Warthog and TPR pedals.
My only complaint was the throttle of the Warthog HOTAS. The two bottom left iron switches only work in one position. That was the moment I received them so I complained and they said I had to return it for repair - when instead they should have sent out a brand new item because they shipped a faulty item. Then, someone on the forums told me, that's how every Thrustmaster Warthog is.
I only just came across your channel and wanted to thank you for the AVA review. I knew it came out but I had no idea what it was. What would have been good (perhaps for a Part 2 video) is a comparison of data from the non-AVA and AVA base. So, for example, you make the exact same manoeuvres but we'd see the input of the two, side-by-side on your screen.
Exactly. How good are the Hall Sensors ? Deadzones ?
... Bit rate resolution ?
Thrustmaster just catching up with technology when everyone moving to FFB now, you have virpil/ winwing ect been doing what thrustmaster done for few years now.
I like it and for a bit i wanted one. Base is £250 and moza FFB is £550. It's too hard to pass on ffb for £300 more. They really needed this to be too good to refuse, price wise.
Very useful review. What about a new version of the AVA but with a damper?
The Ava looks like a solid update/upgrade verses the Warthog, but that came out in 2010. TM has been coasting on brand recognition and milking a largely stagnant product line for way too long, while multiple competitors are generations ahead of the "new" AVA already. TM isn't even trying to compete on price so just seems like more shameless brand-bait at $299.
they shoulda added a dampening system to keep the wobble down
I have the honeycomb yoke and use it to fly airbus and helicopters and im the market for a joystick. Im thinking the thrustmaster airbus or the Winwing one. Idk what to chose
Thank you 🙏
MOZA AB9 FFB BASE
when release damper module?
Will this work well with the FlightSimProjects Airbus sidestick?
I sure hope so, I’ve got one on order haha
Well if you want to get rid of that warthog base I’m new to fs and currently trying to get a decent set up. I’m liking your content on a thorough review.
I know this is a newby question, but how does this base deal with controller drift? It's a huge problem that I'm constantly dealing with on my (much cheaper) Thrustmaster. This might not be an issue with how the electrical connection is established, but, otherwise, is there a way to adjust it physically?
Also, are there mounting holes?
Drift will most likely be caused by a "dirty"/"noisy" axis, where it generates signals that make the PC think that the control has been moved. this stick really shouldn't generate any such noise and if it does, it'd need to be RMA'd. As for mounting holes, I am told that it shares the same pattern as the ones for the Warthog stick base, which along with the compatibility with all of the warthog grips, makes it an excellent candidate for a 1-to-1 swap with the warthog base.
Which thrustmaster do you have? Drift should be a non-issue on any stick that uses a magnetic, contact-less sensor, like this, the original Warthog, and even the Airbus and t16000m sticks.
Hi will there be a stream tonight?
Thrustmaster finally seem to be lisitening to users a hope we get a more metal based a320 stick
They gonna need new sticks to compete.
The buttons are very mushy and they weigh a ton.
I got the Warthog base for £50 off eBay....Pay £50 or pay £250...no brainer really. Can relate to the graduation of flight stick, just moved up from the Airbus one myself.
The oscillation around neutral looks a bit scary…
Why! FFB is the future.
It's been months now and still all of the Offset adapters are out of stock already since launch, and still no word on the adjustable dampers. I would Hold off on buying this. I am Pissed I bought it now. How could they have miss judged the number of offset adapters would sell. And why does it take so long for them to make more, they are just plastic!!!
How is it ergonomically? The position of the stick looks quite high, especially when compared to the Airbus TCA stick, is it comfortable?
Yeah it’s higher than the TCA in use. Not an issue necessarily though. I haven’t found it to be uncomfortable
Great video, and really tempted to by, when i find a decent steering tiller to replace the lack of YAW in this and the Warthog sticks. Fed up with the lightweight cheapie thrustmaster TCA.
The WinWing Ursa Minor Airline stick may be for you. Hall sensors, adjustable dampening, Z axis for tiller. Very much a nice upgrade over the Thrustmaster TCA.
why not force sensor, that can adjusting sensitive itself, and with that they can add regulate moving range without changing anything. there can be adjusting dampers and even lockers... with force sensors there no matter actually how it moves and even if it doesn't moves. with that it can be created universal thing that can be even moved itself with ffb active, with disabled ffb it can be adjusted for be anything like for ga, or liner, ww2 fighters, aerobatic, modern fighters, force sensor like f-16 have... one base for literally everything is possible in theory... for ffb moves and sensors adjusting have to be dynamic and depend of airflow around aircraft. without ffb it can use any manually adjusted sensor sensitivity and move range/force... why they still do all separate... one guys does only ffb, other guys only force sensors slightly moving grips, 3rd guys still make that zero sense spring back to center old school moving grips... force sensors exist, in sim world, tens years already... and if use that with all current technical ability one base can do literally anything in sim world
Do you not find the sitting Left seat in your sim but having the TQ on your left and your stick on your right really off putting and immersion breaking?
I’m probably going to get an Airbus stick from flight sim projects for the Ava base soon, then I can have it back on the left.
Nice base,
but it is overpriced by a lot
No force feedback at that price point… no thank you.
No one offers ffb at this range. What are you talking about? All these types of bases that provide a good center feel are around the same price.
Moza has a FFB unit coming out far more expensive than this. You might need to do some research.
I am still using my Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 after all these years. But I don't get any FF effects in MSFS apart from the resistance in the stick itself.
I mean honestly this is as expensive as a Virpil Warbird or VKB Gunfighter... it doesn't have the dry clutch that both of those bases have, and it's not entirely metal like those bases are... You're stuck with the notoriously cheap Thrustmaster electronics - how many of us have Thrustmaster gear stuck in boot mode cause the PROMs magically flashed itself? - and you have to deal with Guillemot's notoriously bad customer service when it inevitably does fry. The AVA base competes negatively with two products that have a five plus year history of design improvements and large ecosystems of grips, extensions, and mounts... and it does it in 2024 when the high end of the joystick market is moving on to force feedback joysticks. It may be a decent base, but it's behind the curve and too expensive for what it is.
Exactly, this is just too little, too late. But it is kinda cool that vkb, virpil and the rest have finally forced the big boys to fix their horrible gimbals.
Not likely flashing themselves. Hall Sensors must be used regularly. If left for a few months they lose Capacitence for Calibration and need resetting. That is what electric gear does. Same for home PIR Sensors for lights and also Bathroom Extractor Fans which need a push to get the Capacitor Starter to run again and charge up. Life lessons here.
lol
The warthog base IS bad. Cheap plastic gimbal with lots of torsional play and stiction. This varies greatly due to poor production tolerances. I got really unlucky with mine.
No, they sure isnt messing around and havent been for a decade. Now there make a new base unite and wow, we are so happe and a new throttle F-16, wow, Thrustmaster. Sorry, but Thrustmaster is dead on my desktop years ago. TO LITTLE PROGRESS FOR SURE. Winwing, Virpil and others sure have put Thrustmaster back in the line up for sure....
All that engineering and no force feedback......nope
Xbox?