How to communicate with a submarine? - Prof Simon
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- The Navy use Very Low Frequency radio waves that penetrate the ocean to talk to submarines. Prof Simon explores the subject.
Thanks for watching.
Send a comment, like if you enjoyed it and please subscribe for more films. Take a look at the Patreon link, it tells you how you can make a film with me.
This film was made from an idea submitted by Luke Reid....thanks Luke.
Best wishes,
Prof Simon. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I find that the best way to communicate with a submarine is by using calm, non-accusatory language that ensures the submarine doesn't feel ambushed or attacked.
Lol.
LOl.
😂❤❤❤
Professor Simon. just saw your video on Submarine communications. Very well done.
In my younger years I worked at DARPA, and thought you might enjoy knowing that attack submarines coordinate and sync tactical info via laser communications. Turns out Sea water is transparent to Green Laser Light and Beams can travel for miles under water and are virtually impossible to tap into. This combined with a new sensor we developed (Sorry details still Classified which is 1000 times more sensitive to this spectrum of light) then conventional
photo diodes. LOL think of this as the 21st century version of the old signal men flashing light back and forth between ships. Some things just never die...
Interesting
PROFEESOR Simon possibly FOCUS only on RADIO waves NOT OP-TICAL means of radiations that is LASER bieng-modulated.The AD-vantage of radio-WAves it can tra-vel thousand of miles-distances .
isItTrueThatSubmarinesWereTheFirstToGetAntigravityTech,AndFlewIntoSpace?
I sometimes catch myself wondering how would submarine vs submarine combat would actualy be like visualised in a accurate manner (since ww2 it has never happened, and even then only once). would be so cool to watch a 3d render of what the navy thinks its going to be like.
absolutely fantastic explanation of VLF radio transmission. I watch crimson tide now and again and fascinated when they deploy the VLF buoy to hopefully receive an EAM.
thanks for watching
There is also a U.S. Navy VLF transmitter at Cutler, Maine. My parents owned a house just across Little Machias Bay, about two miles from the transmitter. In earlier years you could always clearly hear the constant throbbing of the diesel generators across the water 24 hours a day. I think it was back in the 1980s when I last visited there and the Navy had changed its power plant from diesel generators to natural gas which operate quietly. No more noise to disturb nature's peace!
Hi Donald, YES Cutler was the first US transmitter.....how fascinating you remember hearing it working.....thank you, Prof Simon.
This is the Northern Hemisphere's counterpart to Harold E. Holt (Northwest Cape).
Since you asked…Claude Shannon, truly the man most responsible for advancing the modern digital age…but not much heard of outside of the technical scientific world. Great video thanks.
Thank you kindly!
Thank you, Professor Simon, that was fantastic! I've always wondered about how submarines communicate and been in awe of the huge antenna arrays. I especially enjoyed the story about heating the henhouse!
This is the best video I've seen that explains the ELF frequencies that people from around the globe can actually hear and feel. It comes from nowhere, and yet you can hear it everywhere....inside, outside, while the tv is on. I think the only place I have not heard it is when driving in the car. It can drive you crazy. It exhausts you. You can wear ear plugs to stop the vibrations, especially while sleeping. Before I knew that I had fibromyalgia, I would have been sent to the insane assylum. But since I now take Effexor and Welbutrin for that, the vibrations no longer drive me insane. I can still hear and feel them if I stop to listen. But I can sleep again without ear plugs (except for my husbands snoring:-}
Professor Simon this video is well researched and entertaining as well. The music and graphics are first rate ! I was so impressed I subscribed and will recommend it to other. Great resource for teachers.
Thank you....keep watching and tell your friends...about to do a film on radar.
Thank you Simon! Very informative...
Glad it was helpful!
That was fascinating, thank you Professor.
I find all this stuff fascinating. Thank you.
Prof. Holland; Another interesting vehicle for VLF communication is the Boeing E-6A. There are roughly 10 in service and their base is Tinker AFB Oklahoma. They have other operating locations at Travis AFB, California and Pax River, Maryland. At least one of these aircraft is airborne somewhere 24/7. The aircraft also is equipped with VHF and UHF communications links for the TACMO Take Charge And Move Out mission. This a mission to provide information and communications in a forward battle space platform to help deployment and targeting in a fast response mode. The VLF submarine transmitter on the E-6A remains a primary mission for the aircraft. The aircraft was developed from the Boeing 707-320 and has been re-engined with the CFM turbofan like the KC-135 has. An interesting aspect of the operation of the VLF gear is that the airplane trails a slim wire Dipole from 1 to 5 miles long and orbits for hours at a time to complete it's messages. The E-6's being used today were the last of the 707 line to be produced. Oh, BTW your stuff is terrific!
Thanks Michael....good info and keep watching...more good stuff driving soon....how about ( 'synthetic aperture radar tech?) Prof Simon.
Miles long towed antennas from AWACS type aircraft? Fascinating stuff. 👍
@@ProfSimonHolland Really awesome video, TU. I am a ELF/VLF SWL in my spare time and have made a YT video of an actual TACAMO reception and decode. I could provide you with the link if you like. Keep up the great videos.
You sir,
Are a champion.
Interesting info, but the very end, talking about a 2 megawatt transmitter with an average energy density less than 40 microwatts per inch is nothing to write home about. I have much higher power radiation from the 60hz power running through my home. I'm not sure "resonate" is the correct word to use unless we're talking about a person with a skull a fraction the size of the earth. If you're close to the transmitter, this is a very real issue. It's an occupational hazard since you need to be almost right on top of the antenna. Lightning emits more ELF radiation on average. On a side note, a lot of ELF is because of power delivery, which has this exact same issue and is measured in exawatts, not megawatts.
yeah a lot of stuff he was saying stopped making sense as it got to the end, thank you for taking the time to comment this
That was more amazing than I could even imagine, thank you.
Hopefully the gods of the algorithm bless you in the future. This channel deserves to be seen.
fingers crossed...re ent fiona are doing better...shareing with friends on social media helps me a lot.
My doctoral research was supported by the US Navy based on applications of Nd:YAG pulsed laser;particularly at the doubled 513 nm light. That wavelength can transmit through miles of sea water and the atmosphere, enabling Gigabit data transmission. Satellites carry on two way high speed communication with submarines also using lasers. The added security of nearly impossible interception makes it the preferred method of transmitting highly classified information.
Hi James....thank you for your fascinating information.... Can you email me
simonhollandfilms@gmail.com I have a few questions about how the laser system works.....cheers. Prof Simon.
Hi James - I'm doing research for a book and would love to know more about your research on the laser system. Would you mind emailing me at kimmcfayden [at] gmail dot com so I can ask a few questions?
And THAT is the secret! Only the ones that know the scheduled location can make the conversation. In most cases the sub is on long term bottom station and knows the schedule of the satellites. Because laser beams are diffused at that distance, of hundreds of miles, the alignment need not be precise.
Could that frequuency also be used to see long distances underwater if you got it spread out like a flashlight?
Does the laser light not scatter where the water meets the air?
Absolutely fascinating.
Thanks for the information Professor,i have always wondered about that
Awsome!... Thank you Professor !
PROF. This is very very yes very interesting! Thank you for sharing this with us! A suggestion, Project blue beam would be something most interesting, Also harp! Just a suggestion like you asked. Take care my new friend!
HAARP
You do know project blue beam was a start trek script lol
Thank you for your outstanding presentation.
thanks for watching Marco
#ProfSimonHolland Thank you
#ExcellentDocumentary #Educational #NavalTechnology
Thank you very much for this, it was fun to learn
If I go and see my teacher's class notes about this i will sleep within 10seconds
thank you very much , Sir Simon you help me a lot by making this video you . give me a shortcut knowledge as well the for every person , exchange their comments..
بروفيسور سمون شكرا جزيلا لهذه المعلومات القيمه.. نستفيد منك كثير وان كنت في الطرف الآخر من الأرض..شكرا لك
The VLF transmitters date from the 1920s when Governments wanted to communicate with their colonies in Africa. High power and low frequency were thought to be the only way before HF "shortwave" communications were found to work even at low power. Communication with submerged vessels only came later. For a while they were used to synchronise TV signals and then became part of the Omega navigation system which became obsolete with the advent of Loran, GPS and INS systems. At the end of the Cold War, many predicted their demise but thanks to the threat from rogue states, there are lots of VLF transmitters around now for communication with submarines, mostly in the N. hemisphere. The one at Coventry (mentioned in the video) was demolished in 2004 for housing development, but was replaced by two others in Cumbria.
thanks George
Please make a video on ancient megalithic constructions. Thank you for your videos
I worked on VLF transmitters at Rugby and Anthorn - pictures from both appear in your video. As for cell damage from VLF/ELF, you used a graphic of absorbtion of 2.44GHz wifi.
Fascinating video, thanks.
Great presentation on Sub Communication. As a Ham Operator (Amateur Radio) I always wonder how they communicated underwater.
You nailed it again, Professor. Excellent production.
there's been three incidents with Qantas aircraft over Exmouth in Australia
What kind of 'incidents'?
Interesting
@@KarlSmith1 - Hunh, what could cause that, I wonder?
At some point in the video you state that higher frequencies bouncing off the upper layers of the ionosphere travel shorter distances. It is quite the opposite. Those travel further. Not a big issue for the topic of submarine communications since these higher frequencies can't be used for those unless the vehicle surfaces or floats a HF antenna to the ocean surface.
No. Higher frequencies travel shorter distances. Low frequencies travel farther.
@@russkydeutsch QSL your right. WD4OXT 73s
I heard about this in the 1980's while station at the naval communications station in Guam. I was told the radiated power was less than 4 watts effective radiated power with over 1.2 megawatts of the combined transmitter power output
Great Content! - Could you make a video about HOW submarine communication sounds like?
sounds do transmit through water but today lasers are also used. the whales are easily disrupted by anything manmade in the ocean.
Loved this video - thank you - it was very interesting. One query - was Radio Luxembourg broadcasting on FM? I seem to remember picking it up on AM in the UK. As we went further into the night the quality of the signal deteriated badly. Could be wrong.
Cool underground lair!
i live there..! hahaha..Prof Simon.
There are 2 VLF sites in Oz, one in WA and the other in Sale Victoria, they have been operating since the 70's, The "elephant" sites in the US have been operational since the 60's!
Thank you for the info update.
@Desmond Bagley Yep, the Omega site was the comms site for that part of the pacific and southern ocean!
These videos are perfect at 2x
That was dope.
is that a good thing?
Very interesting, I'd just like to correct a small error regarding Radio Luxembourg. It was an AM station not FM broadcasting on 1440Khz (208 metres wavelength)
Good point....AM
Very interesting.
Submarines are very sensitive, i talk to them often when near to the edge of the ocean, i know they are there somewhere and can hear me but they are very shy and never talk back, maybe if i become a professor..............
I was just watching this episode of Air Disasters that was about the Qantas Airlines incident Professor Simon mentioned. The episode doesn't mention this ELF site and they never tested it at ELF frequencies. In the end they shrugged their shoulders and made a change to the aircraft software.
Dr. Simon, check out the submarine thriller
"Clearwater". The station in Wisconsin is mentioned!
I didn't know that about the Luxembourg station, I've gone past that many times!
it was a major export for Luxembourg.
Apparently there are no metal fasteneings (e.g.nails and screws) in some of the buildings at the Harold Holt site - I think the buildings that house transmitters.
The Harold Holt site is also alleged to have a relatively high incidence of UAP incidents over the years.
no nails interesting
Great video. But how does low frequency RF power do anything more that cause heating ? Not sure what you meant by that it can hurt or destroy cells ?
Very good, interesting, informative, and all that. But the Prof might have mentioned that the idea to use ELF to communicate with submerged subs is an old one, and not an invention of the RN or the USN, but of the German Kriegsmarine.
The ELF project in the US ended in 2003 and the clam lake facility was decommissioned and razed. the land has reverted back to us forest service.
The original plan was called Project Sanguine. The Navy wanted to bury transmission cables under about 40% of the state of Wisconsin at a cost of billions of dollars. That was downsized to Project Seafarer and that was downsized to Project ELF. Project ELF did finally get built with 2 transmitters and several miles of above ground cable strung on regular looking wood telephone poles. I live about 15 miles from the abandoned transmitter building in the U.P. of Michigan. Since recreational use marijuana is legal in Michigan, there is some talk of turning the empty but highly secure building into a legal grow facility.
You can't debate a professor that looks nerdier than you
As a former submariner, I was prepared to call B.S. on this but decided to watch it in its entirety. I won't comment on anything but instead will say...I can neither confirm nor deny the validity of your data presented herein. I did enjoy watching your presentation.
ZommBleed there was more to say but I kept it pretty general....thank you for you comment.
@@ProfSimonHolland - Then make another great video where you say the rest! 👍
Please.
Never heard of the Harold Holt radio station (I'll check) but the old Omega tower in East Gipsland (now gone) was once the tallest structure in the southern hemisphere.
It is called "North West Cape" today.
Maybe you should do a video on HARP and the effects VHF antenna array of punching holes in the ionosphere
Oh please... learn a bit about RF and effective energy rates... HAARP isn't 'blasting holes' in the ionosphere.
HAARP
HAARP is an HF system, not vhf.
Whales use acoustic signals for communication. They dont use radio waves and therefore their communication is not disturbed by the use of radio waves of whatever frequency. Now if the whales and other marine mammals can communicate using sound signals, why can't the submarines do the same thing? Sound in water travels much faster than it does in the air and except for thousands of kilometers of distance, acoustic signals would work.
You are so correct...the whales are disturbed by all the activity underwater not the radio transmissions.
That was very cool thank you sir
thanks for watching
Thanks for the upload. It would be interesting for you to do a video on the triangle of MoD installations on the Isle of Barra, Isle of Lewis and Isle of Skye/Lochalsh. An old Sea Captain who lived close to the one on Lewis told me that they were an MoD Decca station navigational system designed for use by the Royal Navy in the event of an Electro Magnetic Pulse knocking out GPS. The retired master mariner told me that those remote secretive installations were also capable of doing more than that.
Good job! Will be interesting about how does the animals comunicate, like elephants!?
TH-cam is controlling my posts. They detected my plan to travel in a submarine and gave me this video as suggestion, after 2 years it was published.
This video was great.
I am now more curious, in the second world war the most important thing for a submarine was not to use a radio if they did not want to be detected by the enemies. How can they avoid this risk with these new technologies ?
You do make a good video
Well prof Simon, I visited Northwest Cape, Oz 3 years ago and was surprised at how small it was . The towers were less than about 70 meters tall and maybe about 20 of them over about 50 acres. The main industry was watching whale sharks. There was a prison tree= hollow bottle tree.... No dramas... Thanks
the signal goes a long way...under water
ELF can be submerged 150 metres and still receive data albeit very low data rate few bits per second VLF supports around 200 bits per second data rate
thank you...good insight. Prof Simon.
Excellent point. Data rate is (roughly) inversely proportional to frequency. See Shannon & Nyquist.
Thanks Prof! I would love it if you could put your (electronic) sources in your notes.
What do you want to know? Happy to help.
This video gives some possible methods of communication. The actual method(s) used were not described. For obvious reasons.
During wartime, isn't it easier to attack those VLF transmitters?
I do know in telecom they instruct tv cable installers to put metal caps on the ends of the coax connections on junction boxes...they say it affects aviation for some reason. I do know a guy that was able to broadcast and receive with a ham radio a man in southeast Asia through atmospheric skipping. Cool stuff, those radio waves!
fascinating
Brilliant eVLF introduction.
I presume it is Amplitude Modulated because the available Frequency bandwidth is the main hurdle with underwater signal propagation.
Medical radiography teaches us that ultrasound are the wave of choice to bridge gaps unlike close quarter MRI.
Data encryption and Error correction protocols would nice to build a realistic picture.
Mathematical computations are the ultimate system limits!
👏
How about... other ways to INJECT data with phase shifts, you know: slow gated signal...
no longer sinwaves replaced by bursts of energy.
FWD: A FLOATED FIBER COM - POD
No they use MSK or FSK modulation since the last 30 years or more. The bandwidth is about 500 Hz or less.
I was aboard a SSBN in the 70's and recall the use of VLF/ULF technologies. We had a antenna which consisted of a 1200' long 1/2" wire that was trailed out the back of the sub cruising at 200' at 5 knots. Messages more-or-less consisted of a group of letters (six?) that would be then looked up in a code book to see what to do. 90% of the time the message was "come up to periscope depth to get a real message" (that would be squirted from a satellite via UHF)....
Isn't that classified omg
@@cedriceric9730 No they talk of this now because of the EME relay system from Operation Moon Bounce
@J.E. Ducker, photography Ex-boomer here also... USS George C Marshall, 1984-1988. This video is more than I knew before, but I beleve the ELF project in WI is closed now.
@@cedriceric9730 - Nah. This is well known stuff for decades now. It's pretty obvious if you think about it.
The day where long-range acoustic modems is coming for underwater IoT. Theirs been plenty of research over the last 20yrs in non-military use alone where datarates that can support moderate messaging is capable using an acoustic version of Wi-Fi (replace the use of radiowaves for Sound).
Now I don't know how having actively sounding buoys would help for tactical stealth, but I would imagine their uses will fall into the same category as drones for their ability to be disposable in warfare.
radio frequency interfering with whales, which whales cannot even physically perceive radio frequency. makes perfect sense
at first i thought i just made a mistake....but no... some whales are bothered by RF frequencies...weird
Per your suggestion; how about a similar expose of the Russian submarine communication system?
Fantastic video Professor, please make a video regarding all of the various scientific anomalies that could assist in the further development of the EVTOL aircraft industry, and the aeronautical physics phenomena with an emphasis on key scientific effects that could be exploited, we all know that is the only way that these UFO’s operate and they must have exploited some as yet unknown scientific phenomena that would assist the aviation functionality of these unidentifiable aerial phenomena
There was a ELF antenna in Daventry until it fell down.
Can you do a video on the VLF station in Cutler, Maine in the US?
let e look into it Jim
Since when can whales detect radio waves?
Yep...good point....but they are being bothered by subs and navy stuff
They pick it up in their filings.
It would be great if you could talk more on the space systems for communication to submarines. This is not new technology, however it's less explained.
Excellent video up until the conjecture near the end
Tell us what really is going on Butch.
Professor Simon Holland Well I don’t know what’s really going on, but that doesn’t mean you do. In particular, I didn’t appreciate your implication that the Qantas aircraft losing was caused by RF interference. You admit that the interference being the cause was “never established” but that “people suspect it was”. What are you trying to accomplish with that statement? You did a great job researching and presenting fascinating factual information in most of the video so it was disappointing to see it devolve into quasi-conspiracy at the end.
Subs have no limit of length of antenna... They can just pay out whatever length they need and reel it back in.
interesting
I believe there is a practical limit to the length of the antenna. Would a long antenna interfere with the operations? Subs are not the deep sea to make noise and tow tens of kilometres of cables. It might impede manoeuvrability as well. What do you think?
MR SIMON C CLARKE... NICE VID.
another point to mention is 78 US or 80Hz Soviet’s is only capable of sending short messages. and that everyone on Earth hears the signal. so signal encryption must be highest concern.
Enemy aircraft can sometimes locate submarines by looking for a straight line of seagulls up to half a mile long doing 3-4 knots, they hang on to a floating wire aerial and go for a ride.
Hi Mr Professor, so what would be the maximum data rate using using the ELF
good question.....slow and so the message stays the same....until war is confirmed.
Veeeery slow AFAIK. They'll be using pre written code books rather than spelling everything out I reckon.
ELF is incredibly slow...15 minutes to send a sentence...project seafarer is closed now...and has been for more than a decade...likely they can receive VLF at much greater depths now...there were breakthroughs in weak signal detection about 15 years ago...we in the HAM community have benefited from this research, but you can bet your gonads that the military wasn't researching this stuff to help HAMs and Radio Astronomers...🤔🤨😁🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Hi there, Professor. Here're some stories about E.L.F signals. Have you ever heard your telephone ring & there's nobody on the other end? This's because E.L.F. signals ring telephones. For years I haven't answered a telephone until it rings 3 times. Also, There was once a incident where some guys were attaching a big, corrugated aluminum roof to a warehouse when the Navy cranked up their transmitter. The big hunk of metal absorbed the radio waves like a sponge, converted them to electricity, & knocked the guys off of the roof. ZZZAAAPPP!!! Unless insulators're attached to barbed wire fences at intervals to segregate the wire into shorter lengths, they can absorb the energy like a antenna & give a person a nasty shock. The longer the wire, the more energy it'll absorb. On behalf of all your other listeners, I thank you for sharing your information with us.
fascinating.
Blue green laser from space. Developed at Avco Everette as project HALS in the '80s
Eek is 15-20 miles far enough I live in Banbury one town over lol had seen these things I had assumed it was radar its cool n kinda scary knowing what it is keep up the good work Prof
I have many vlf elf receivers fun to listen to wow 🤩 I got a Collins one if a kind used in the appollo moon mission lived your vide
Could you please make a video on Radio Waves communication on the Earth's Layer or surface and under. (All frequency)
great idea
professor do you know about vlf undergrounds if you know pleas answer thanks
8:55 are you really equating *radio* transmissions with *sound* waves?
it was initially a mistake but it turns out whales are affected by rf freq.
Near the start it says they would use VHF - which I think is unlikely as VHF has very limited range, more or less line of site. It would have been HF, which under the right conditions propagates thousands of miles.
8:50 Acoustic and EM signals are two entirely different things. Both have frequency as a property, but whales can most certainly not hear ELF or VLF radio waves.
Something is upsetting them....probably just acoustic noise
Perhaps a series of submersible relays would be useful for deep sea mining machines
I thought it was from the project Operation Moon Bounce where they tested and proved EME communications.
Sounds like good info....thanks for sharing
Subtitle "How to drive a whale crazy".
How did the submarines communicate back on VLF? They cannot have very long antennas on board? Or was it only one way communication?
i dont think they said much.
The can't! They receive orders and cannot complain back. They have to surface and use HF to replay to base, or more likely, use satellite comms.
I loved it Professor Holland. Now can you tell us about the under water bases and how they live down there with all that pressure
If you mean the deep dive workers:
Significant Helium mix in the air. Excess O2 would be fatal. Excess N2 causes narcosis (essentially being drunk and insane) Helium avoids these issues.
This allows the deeps sea workers to live for over a month at high pressure.
It takes time to adapt to the pressure going down and again going up... so its not practical to have them go down for shorter times.
*********************
The submarines use standard sea level pressure inside and that is part of what limits how deep they can go.
@Wroger Wroger - Because submarines have to be able to change depth, often quite rapidly. I'd imagine that has something to do with it.
I don’t understand how come radio wave causes water vibration (i.e. sound in the water) that would disturb the whale communication. Could you please explain?
I would think it is the submarine activity and acoustic signals that disturb the whales.
A secret antenna in Antartica? Cool. Just don't tell anyone. Awesome as always. Got a worse one. "Dang humans. Keep it down, we're trying to Humpback over here!" sounded better in my head srry
it's shocking they have a military radio station in the Antarctic...but i'm not surprised. Best wishes, Prof simon.
What's it powered with? They'd have big problems supplying enough oil, which implies nuclear power stations.
Turn the music down and uour voice up. Great video!
It was a bit loud....I agree....later vids get the music balance better.