JORDAN PETERSON BUSTED?! TRYING TO REWRITE HISTORY?!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- #jordanpeterson #jordanpetersondaily #jordanpetersondebate #samharris #douglasmurray #history #science #philosophy #pangburnphilosophy #pangburn #josephstalin #stalin
#atheism #war #worldwar2 #ww2 #history
Full discussion here: • Sam Harris vs Jordan P...
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So, the "moderator" in this debate (I say in quotes because he was repeatedly quick to interrupt Harris yet Peterson repeatedly inanely babble), his ignorance of Nazism is disturbing. First off, trying to argue that they never thought "God was watching them" is woefully incorrect, in fact, it's the exact opposite--most Nazis much like the most the German populace at the time fell under Lutheranism, Protestantism, or were Roman Catholics--and in the last regards even more apparent considering the non-aggression pact between the Church and Nazi Germany. Furthermore, the Nazis often wore religious iconography made with Nazi symbolism that outright stated "God is watching us" as in watching over them as a protector. And then, its grand leader ol' Adolf, in his own exact words within his autobiography stated that his extermination of Jews and the marginalized peoples the Nazis targeted was "God's work" and was acting as the "Sword of God", and then realize he was raised Roman Catholic--again very common thing to be for an Austrian or German at the time. So, the idea these were atheist acts or they didn't believe "God's eyes were on them", could not be more sitting at the peak of the summit of stupidity running around with in a carnival of ignorance and idiocy to say, but the reality could not be more the entire opposite. The Nazis did not only believe "God's eyes were on them", but they were counting on it given their religious fascism.
From organising speaking events in multiple continents to running a Discord server
Because Sam Harris is wrong
Jordan Peterson's motto: Never use 2 words when 20 minutes will do.
Hallmark of a bloviating pseudo intellectual.
Such is philosophy or an attempt at it.
@@LeahIsHereNowI wish I was capable of writing that sentence. Well played.
Lol😂
Used to be a right winger and while I do still feel JP gives GREAT life advice, I'm starting to realize the things he says about religion or geo-politics don't line up rationally with other topics or his old lectures. I truly think he's grifting due to frustration from the left and money lol
Anyone notice how the "moderator" interrupted Harris repeatedly and let JP speak uninterrupted for several minutes? Also, JP interrupted nearly every thread of statements Harris made at least once while Harris politely waited for JP to finish his thoughts every time. Harris has immense paience.
Douglas Murray. Right-wing pundit so not surprising.
That's what panicked people do...
That's Douglas Murray, he's an agnostic that espouses the virtues of the Christian faith and how great it is every chance he gets.
Yeah, this is unbearable and it's not the first time I've seen this in a theist/atheist debate, it's pure cowardice. Deep down they know the atheist is right and they just don't want to let him talk.
Guys, just watch full debate, don't make your conclusions from 10 min video
I’m going to repeat a comment someone left a while ago. “Jordan Peterson is what stupid people think smart people sound like”
That is very true - just sad that you don't think the same thing is just as true for the other complete hack and pseudo-intellectual dwarf on the stage
That's how I feel about the Big Bang Theory show, and that Rick & Morty show.
That comment is what stupid people think stupid people sound like.
That comment is what stupid people make! Lol!
@@Cpt_Guirkthat is one of the worst comebacks I've heard all week
Anyone who associates Nazis with atheism has proven they don't know what they're talking about, and it's hard for me to take anything else they say seriously. Nazi Germany was religious, it's well known and well documented.
"Anyone who associates Nazis with atheism" has no idea what Nazism is and they have no idea what Atheism is either
There were Nazis who were atheists, but the Nazi movement was anything but atheist, was hostile to atheism actually.
It is a very different thing to say that the people in that time were religious with saying that the Nazism was a religious belief.
@@andreimustata5922Mein kampf is full of statements where Hitler makes it clear as day that his movement was based on Christianity.
@@andreimustata5922 Yea thats why he didnt say nazism is a religious belief. Instead he said germany was religious (as in mostly christians), which is true. Hitler in Mein Kampf often used words such as "god" and "creator" and so on.. Hell even the wehrmacht wore the infamous GMU on their belts which litteraly translates to: God with us
Harris just walks all over Peterson.
It’s a short stroll.
🙄 Ah well. You keep thinking that if it makes you happy.
Harris is a Stupide Fact Ist WHo can;t even Figure Out the Probklem is not THis THing called "Religion: But People and that He is the Problkem since He';d do what He FUInds appaling in "Religion" miuxed with Goivmont if given the Chance.
Peterson spoke 200 words and said nothing.
@@kevonslims7269 - Whwen a Militant Aye They Ust wishes to Dismiss what People Say THey CLaim it is Meanignlkess. All that Proives is You are Dyshenost.
What the fuck is Peterson on about at the end. I love how people will act like "No you just don't get it, idiot". It's like a totally fabricated word salad. A total flight of ideas through psycho babble.
He’s the Gordon Ramsey of word salads
@@koolmexi No, when Gordon Ramsey makes a salad, it makes sense.
As soon as I hear the word "perhaps", I know from that point on its stream of consciousness, twisted road with a side of word salad time.
That's exactly what Jordan does. He likes to sound smart and talks endlessly.
Atheism is reponsible for Stalin and Hitler because in ancient Mesopotamia there was a king who had to act like Marduk.
. . . . What??
Well let’s blame non golfers because Stalin was also a non golfer. 😂
Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism. Stalin’s mother was Jewish
That sums it up pretty well ! .
Most Nazis were Christian anyway, this is a basic historical fact , nonsense argument
Yeah, it's an insane take. Can the Manson family blame all of history's atrocities on the lack of belief in Helter Skelter? With Peterson's logic, all small cults, no matter how violent, are infinitely more moral than everyone else in history, since every other atrocity in history was committed by a non-believer of their cult ideology. 😂
...Except Douglas ......... that the Germans WERE Christians in WW2. Except Douglas ...... that the Russians WERE Christians in WW2.
Where did anyone get the idea that Germans and Russians were atheists from?
There is nothing religious about fascist or communist principles, both proven to end in totalitarian regimes. Both regimes applied pressure to the dominant churches in their near surroundings to either join the regime or be their enemy. This was not their unique approach to religious organisation, but was deliberate towards any organisation. This is why it's called totalitarian.
How on earth have you arrived at the conclusion that religious organisation somehow has a different role than any other? Anyone who wasn't actively against the regime was an enemy and anyone who participated or just did not resist was wrong.
Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism 100% fact. Stalin’s mother Jewish they hide behind other peoples ethnicities. Churchill Jewish. Trump Jewish
It was Hitler who had to be careful of the Church at first, not the other way around, perhaps having "God is with us" as a motto and Hitlers constant reference to the "Almighty" to placate the mostly Christian Nazi Germany citizens, and them pronouncing themselves as Christians, gives you the idea they were Christians. The propaganda even called themselves as successors of the Holy Roman Empire. This is basic stuff man
@@HansLaros So you think the nazi regime forced the vatican to sign treaties with them (actually the first international treaties the nazi regime signed)? Or forced the catholic church to celebrate Hitlers birthday every year until his death (actually the pope ordered it)? The nazis and the church where mutual friends in their hate against jews, socialists, communists, gays, lesbians and lots more. Hitler was catholic and every german soldier had the words "god with us" on their belt buckle.
@@HansLarosanyone that’s done any amount of studying into Nazi germany, the propaganda, hitlers speeches, read mein kampf, read up on papers that studied Nazi germany knows how abundant Christianity was in Nazi germany and how much the beliefs were used to push Nazi goals. You being in denial of it doesn’t change reality just because you don’t want it to be true
I cannot even listen to the drivel that come out of JP's mouth. Terrible
He's such a clown, lol
but but you just don't understand the metaphysical substrate of JPs message!
@@rayfighter But But you don't understand, the metaphysical substrate you mention is still BS. And as we know BS is still BS. Nice try brother but you believe a clown. Enjoy the circus !🤣🤣🤣
Babble babble babble babble... read it with a serious face.
Dude, he is in outer space nowadays
We all know JP is a joke but to portray Douglas Murray somehow as a serious person makes me equally sick
And, if for nothing else than platforming Douglas Murray and his several times debunked racist IQ ideas, Sam Harris is little better than them.
Douglas Murray is the worst.
SICK exactly -- I felt my stomach literally coming up.
Says that is shouldn't be a tennis match. Then when Harris says "There's no doctrine in atheism that leads to the gulag." he says "There is". That's you involved in the tennis match, you buffoon!!! And you're wrong! There's no doctrine in atheism at all! And then he goes on to be wrong about their religiosity.
It's always a shame when people assume, due to their prejudices, that because they can't understand something it is somehow wrong or bad.
SAM HARRIS IS WAY SMARTER THAN PETERSON
We all are. Jordan Peterson is an obvious grifter and gets WAY TOO much coverage.
And Murray
Everyone is smarter than Peterson. Few have such an ego though.
Him, Musk, Trump. Spoilt children who never grew up who all spout word salads.
Both of them are very intelligent but both lack a certain level of self awareness of the biases in their own world views.
JP babbles on a sophisticated structure of beeing.
Douglas murray is almost as despicable as jordan. Despite repeatedly being shown that those crimes were not caused BECAUSE of atheism just while being athiest unlike the religious crimes, he again utters the same talking points of religious apologists.
It's even weirder considering he's gay. Religion has made a lot to protect people like him...(Not).
Douglas Murray makes sense when you accept he’s a racist. Let me be clear: his world view is White supremacist. He masks this by using the words “European” or “western” rather than racial terms.
He believes all other societies are straightforwardly inferior and dangerous.
And from there he loses intellectual credibility as he tries to make his worldview fit that bigotry
Thank you! My thoughts exactly.
I'm an athiest, but it definitely plays a part. I know athiesm just actually means a lack of a belief in God or gods but its naive to think that won't have inevitable consequences that could lead to humans and ideologies being propped up like gods. Human nature has to be accounted for.
Jusy like hoe marxism doesn't account for human nature, but it's a nice idea
@@williamcartedge5583Finally another reasonable atheist lol. Religion has been around since in all human civilizations since pre historic times, it's incredibly naive to think that there won't be any negative consequences to getting rid of religion. There must be a reason that every human civilization on earth has been religious in various ways because otherwise it would've eventually died out.
Peterson and the moderator just getting rocked the entire time. This isnt the first time Harris has been able to do this
Lol!
Douglas Murray (at 3 min 45 sec) states “none of them thought that God was watching them, thus accountable”.
He included the SS, who were distinctly Catholics, them wearing a belt inscribed (translated)
Yep, also ignoring all the Christian collaborators all around Europe, the fascists in Italy who were indeed Catholics, the fascists in Spain and Portugal, Catholics, all the different fascists dictatorships backed by the US in Latin America….
True. Hitler himself was a christian and he literally said that he HATES atheism. It's true that before he died he become critical of christianity and gradually left christianity to become a pagan (like Himmler, a pagan who hated atheism even more) but he was NEVER an atheist.
He was either a christian or a pagan but never an atheist, this moron clearly stated that atheism was an enemy and that for him atheist = communism.
And the whole sentence of "god is watching us" is a pure stupidity that makes no sense. Their imaginary friend whom he calls "god" is supposed to know everything, to have chosen everything and to know everything in advance. So he has no reason to stay here to "watch" us when he is supposed to know everything that is going to happen and have decided everything. In fact he doesn't even have any reason to stay in the universe to observe it because he already knows everything that's going to happen.
It's a pity sam did not pick Murray apart in what he said there.
It's because he is one of them.
According to the Nuremburg lawyers, what the defendants all had in common was a total lack of empathy. The lack of empathy was necessary to commit evil acts, justification follows.
The idea that communist Russia was atheist is entirely ahistorical and laughable. Communism might be ideological atheist but it’s also anti nationalist and anti imperialist and no one could dispute how nationalist and imperialist the USSR was
How is communism "ideologically atheist"? Did you mean secular?
Communists in Russia were Jewish Bolsheviks
Communists were Jewish Bolshevism
@@michaelmay5453 I mean it is anti religion, which is calls the opiate of the masses as in it see religions as primarily if not exclusively a form of social control or a means by which to pacify the proletariat so they do not become sufficiently angry with their conditions that they revolt. Communism/marxism claims that religions like Christianity in particular encourage people to not fight the status quo but to accept it safe in the knowledge that when they die the poor and meek will go to heaven
@@michaelmay5453 I posted a reply but for some reason was deleted/hidden?
If you are genuinely curious Google Marx opiate of the masses. Communism is atheist not secular
Nobody commits a crime in the name of atheism. Lots of people commit crimes in the name of religion.
The league of militant atheists killed people in the name of atheism in the Soviet Union.
Yes but a lot of Atheists commit crimes in the name of anything other than religion.
Actually its quite the opposite for example if u steal or murder or being cartel member and usa invasions or the native Americans massacres or Australia so on so forth are all against religion it self since religion first commandments is to not ko only for self defence dont steal dont r@ pe etc all acts against religion and more about people who don’t believe in god rather people believe in no god thats why when people do bad things they often go to church or mosque or ask god for redemption while any and all atheist never have i seen anyone who doing that so to summarise religious people ko 0.001% compared to atheism .
Eh. If you mean as an organization there’s the soviets and the PRC in the name of state-atheism.
Concept-wise, imagine a lot of individuals rationalize crime because there is no imposed morality or judgement day.
@@TheDreadPirateRoberts-jr2fk Simultaneously, you can imagine a group of individuals rationalizing honor killing as they have received divine revelation that what they're doing is a god's work or as per their doctrine interpreted as the word of a god.
I don't see how religion particularly circumvents the issue of committing crimes, even with the threat of divine judgement. If a person is committing a crime without a good reason, chances are they never cared about the consequences anyways and thusly don't care about receiving divine judgement or imposed morality.
At least under naturalism, rather than writing criminals off as 'lost' or 'fallen' we can understand the circumstances of the individual and circumvent the issue of potential crime by addressing their needs prior to it.
When Murray made the “god wasn’t watching” point expecting for a massive round of applause and about 3 people clapped
In Hitler's radio broadcast after he went missing during his post assassination attempt paranoia, he still had to pay deference to God in his first sentence, because most of the Nazis were Christian, these intellectuals for all the flowery language aren't that smart
Does Harris also forget Gaddafi was removed by a NATO invasion not just a crowd of people storming the palace. A lot of big words and basic errors
As a theist (non-Abrahamic) Sam Harris is absolutely right and these guys are doing nothing but obfuscate. Dogma in some religions CAUSE evil to appear as a rational choice.
and they root the evil on
You can add Hinduism to that.
That's true of any dogma that does not have truth at it's foundation. Now the question is... What is true?
@@michaelmay5453lolz. Strongly agreed. The OP' notion of 'some religions' is such a charming qualifier.
@@HansLaros Can we even comprehend truth? Who is to say that truth isn't false? What is the meaning of true? If we consider the word we quickly realise that Tolstoj was correct when he said "what isn't is what is not and sometimes is when it is not". We must also consider the idea as such and not consider it not as such and that is why God.
Congratulations, you have been Petersonised.
Causing horrific crimes based on not believing in something is ludicrous
Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism fact
Peterson is insufferable. His desperation to outshine with convuluted and gawdy language and concepts....just irks me and wreaks of inauthenticity. Just desperate to appear as the smartest kid in the class isnt he. I dont understand why he has such a big following.
Basically, he’s a pompous douche.
I agree his input was hard to follow in this clip.
Have you read any of his works though? That could be a beginning of an answer to your question.
I love how they never bring up secular countries like the modern western ones😂
Somehow Northern Europe doesn't seem to exist.
Modern countries that castrate children and kill babies?
@@MrCanis4 We're communist hell holes when the US wants to make an example of our social policies, and a libertarian utopia when they saw we didn't lock down as quickly as they did.
The most successful and safest places on earth in human history? ATHEISM WORKS!!😭
@@suhbrill9435 I'd say that it's less to do with atheism and more to do with people not politicizing their religious beliefs or making them a nationalistic feature. Of course, atheism and other forms of irreligion (deism, spiritualism, agnosticism, agnostic-theism, etc...) are entirely acceptable and probably outnumber religious adherents at this point by a large amount. But yeah, Jordan Peterson is completely full of crap, the nastiest people in Nordic countries (really every country) tend to believe they can harm or oppress others because in God they trust.
Religion can be blamed for keeping people in ignorance,
Often, most forms of tribalism do that… nay, REQUIRE it.
The church didn't want people to read, because they might read the bible, and learn what nonsense it is. For the same reason, they didn't want it translated, and murdered people for doing so,
Fanaticism, certainty and propaganda keeps people in ignorance. Has nothing to do with religion. Those three marks can be found in any -ism. Nationalism, atheism, theism. Your -ism isn't a special snowflake that is immune to this.
Atheists are generally easier to brainwash. They don't believe in anything, so they go to the 'Church of Pop Culture' and fill their heads with whatever ideas artists happen to throw at them. Usually the ideas that feels good rather than actually being right
That's not a terribly well-formed statement. The Catholic Church founded the universities in Europe in the Middle Ages.
JP has been referred to as the "professor of piffle" and the "stupid man's smart person". Those are accurate....
@dannyspitzer1267 At the University of Toronto, his nickname by the students was " Kermit the Fraud." His area of expertise is in treating alcoholics on the religious Alcoholics Anonymous 12 Step Program. Beyond that, he is, at best, well read.
How can you possibly think that the reason someone commits a horrifying act, is because they don't think there is a god? It seems astoundingly arrogant to assert that any of the atrocities committed in the past would have been prevented had the perpetrator just believed in an afterlife where they would face punishment. Not given the evidence we have for people of faith committing atrocities themselves, and in the name of their god in many cases. That's just so ignorant to suggest.
Word.
To be the devil's advocate... You may be an atheist, and believe religion is so bad for humanity you think the world would be better without religious people. You may also be a person who is not sound of mind, and do something like commit acts of violence against religious people.
Douglas Murray isn’t trying to work out the cause, he is looking for the excuse.
Gatekeepers for Jewish interests. Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism fact
It’s a bold claim for the moderator to assert that the godless are immoral because “they don’t have a god watching them.” As if fundamentally human nature is evil and not only does it need a god to keep it in check but it more specifically needs the Christian god to do so.
That is right. If believers need a god watching over them to be good, their belief system is flawed and bogus. That is like a cashier who does not divert cash to pocket when the manager is watching.
@@adon2424 Are you wilfully misreading the situation? Or are you just thick? Obviously the idea is that the Christian God is an ideal to aspire to and turn to in moments of moral weakness. The whole point is that in such a worldview we all contain the propensity for good and evil and the ideal helps to focus on the good. You are right that Peterson thinks that without such a connection to an ideal idea of the good it is easy for human beings to slide into moral relativism.
@@faustoferrari4303 you are the thickest noodle in the bowl. It is reality. To think that you have a monopoly on morals just because you have an imaginary friend is bigotry.
@@faustoferrari4303 if you need the concept of god watching you to keep you from doing bad things, you're not a good person. the biggest contradiction of christian based morals is that what you do doesn't matter as long as you accept jesus. that isn't even relativism, it's whatever i do is ok cuz god will forgive me if i kiss his ass enough. terrible shit has occured due to this mindset for millenia.
And prisons are filled with Christians and not so many atheists. You have tons of pedo priests and pastors. Italian mobsters are Catholics. Mexican cartel members are Catholics… this idea that Christians are morally superior is laughable
Murray is actually worse than Peterson. Peterson is just spewing incomprehensible nonsense. Murray though is saying things that are patently false with the absolute conviction and eloquence that make the audience agree with him.
What the fuck was that speil jordan went on, i try so hard to follow what hes saying but its so strange i get totally lost. He used to be so concise and understandable, wtf happened.
Feel the same. I think what happened is he gained a "following" on social media, and he has to pander to them. He panders heavily to fundamentalist christian types, but here, arguing with thinkers, he does this non-answer thing, acting all mysterious, just in case one of his followers happens to watch, and wonder why he can't answer the simple question "was Jesus resurrected". If you can't dazzle with brilliance, baffle with bullshit.
@@robtaylor2434 WELL YOU KNOW IT DEPENDS WHAT U MEAN BY CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS!
Jordan Peterson is a gatekeeper for Jewish interests. Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism they hide behind other peoples ethnicities
Evangelical Zionists are extreme
The problem people like Douglas and Jordan don't seem to understand is that there IS no accountability. God inevitably ends up being used to justify atrocity just as anything we put in Gods place will always do. You can try to generate a hyperbolic moral code from whatever aligns with your feefees the mostest, but in the extremes, we'll always revert back to pathological behavior no matter what. In many cases, an ever rigid moral system will start to make you less and less compatible with your neighbor's. This will spark the need for more pathological behavior necessary more often because everything that is different is perceived as an extreme in contrast to a self-imposed rigid moral system. It swells and inflames tribal tendencies to a level of perversion.
Agreed. And even in cases where you can't justify your actions, you can simply absolve yourself by asking God to forgive you.
Biblical writings have and will be eternally re-interpreted to synchronise with societies inconstant principles. It was made up once, it will be made up again and again.
The poor knowledge about Communism is a shame
"communism" is obsolete. It had a historical context that no longer exists. "socialism", which was initially a synonym for communism, has morphed into a wide variety of political systems.
Incorrect.
Socialism is the path. It's the first stance required to reach the objective, communism.
As the bourgeoisie won't share the ownership and profit of the way of production production (huge factories, huge companies, etc ), The first step is the Socialism, where the state starts to take control of the production (it doesn't affect small and medium business).
Communism is the final stage...where the community "are the government".
Communism is not obsolete....some people just never read about it.
@@alangalantin8614 and capitalism what path is that taking us?
@@joshuarock4631
Capitalism is the final stage of its ideology.
Where it's taking us?
Hunger, colonialism, genocide, unfair business, exploration of Global South....
See....Global South produces 90% of the world's production.....and starves...
The capitalists (owner of production ways) hold all the money, while the workers are just eating, and surviving...
Notice something... It Bill gates pass away, Microsoft will keep producing, selling, etc....
But without workers, there is no production, no profit.
@@joshuarock4631
YT deleted my answer....I will reply again shortly
Full discussion here: th-cam.com/video/aALsFhZKg-Q/w-d-xo.html
Jordan Peterson loves to hear himself talk---his word salad could feed a village.
Jordan Peterson is a gatekeeper for Jewish interests. Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism
Loaves and little fishes plus JP word salad (0 calories) for the diet conscientious lol. Spewmon on the grassy hillock
Absolutely disappointed with Peterson and Murray. Much kudos to Harris for his patience.
Is there an alternative universe where Peterson makes clear and precise statements and answers simple yes or no questions? I’d like to see what that might be like 🤷♂️
What exactly do you not understand?
Why use one word when you can use twenty 😀
@@ChAzZMaNZZhis entire spiel makes no statements and conveys no information. He is a terrible communicator
@@Puketapu You're avoiding my question.
@@grayhalf1854 It is not his fault you don't understand.
Stalinism, or Soviet communism in general, was structured like a religion. It was just as dogmatic and as intolerant of dissent.
Every social structure is dogmatic and intolerant to an extent. Religion requires an element of mysticism or the supernatural.
Agree, it's a person cult just like jesus and his death cult.
I think you confuse authoritarian with religious, it is not the same thing. I lived in a communism country and I can tell you that it wasn't a religion in any shape or form.
@andreimustata5922 Absolute nonsense. Authoritarianism is another attribute of religion.
@@alanmacification Authoritarianism may be an attribute of religion but it can exist equally well without any religion. It is absurd to call everything which authoritarian a religion. Also, Quakers are religious but I never herd of them being authoritarians.
Jordan Peterson just uses meaningless salad of words to impress religious simpletons and convince them their "faith" is logical.
Ask a Christian to give a brief conclusion from his babbling.
This debate would’ve been so great if Peterson wasn’t there.
Do Murray and Peterson think that atrocities were not committed before the 20th century?
No. Next question.
Doug Murray is just out of his depth here.
To American audience his British accent is the only attractions.
His views are mediocre
Not many perpetrators in nazi death camps or gulag thought what they did was morally wrong but could get away with it as no God could hold them accountable.
Most of them felt they were entitled to do that as it was considered the right thing to do, and that applies equally to religion, and ideology supposed to make the world into something better.
Nazis were religious
The point of the video is that just cause some have a god that doesn’t make it less likely to commit atrocities. The nazis thought they were doing gods work
@@Druid75 I think it was a mixed bag, some people had theological belief that Hitler did god's work on earth, while Hitler himself did not have high opinions of Christianity but played along as it was a powerful force in society. But I do think that the Catholic church actions in ww2, or rather lack thereof, to fully condemn the persecution of jews is a very powerful argument against the idea that religion plays a role in safeguarding morality.
That, and also that medieval times were Christianity prevailed certainly did not prove to be a moral paragon in comparison with more secular countries today.
@@andersbiro well I wouldn’t argue for the Catholic Church’s lack of action but for the part they played. The third reichs first political treaty was with the vatican. Various antisemitic teachings were taught in the church up until the 60s.
Although Hitler left Catholicism at a young age he did not turn to atheism or secularism but instead revised an ancient Teutonic pagan type faith almost like a pantheist. Hitler wasn’t wild about Christianity but favored it more compared to other religions. There is no doubt that the vast majority of the Nazis, soldiers officers or politicians subscribed to some sort of religious ideology.
Do you know what the belt buckles of Nazi soldiers said? Do you know what the first words of swearing to the fuhrer?
@@Druid75 Hitler officially never left the Catholic Church - he even paid church tax until 1933 (he became exempt from any taxes and his personal tax record was closed in March 1935).
Like Stalin from 1941 on, Hitler was aware about the usefulness of Christian religion in a sense of keeping up traditional values in a quite conservative population - and he was aware about the alignment of many church members with a nationalistic and anti-Semitic ideology, too.
A severe problem with the German Catholic church during the NS regime shows up in an exchange presented by professor Kevin P. Spicer (author of several scholarly publications including the book "Resisting the Third Reich: The Catholic Clergy in Hitler’s Berlin Northern Illinois University Press, 2004) - translated back from a German edition here:
"In April 1929, 21-year-old Maximilian T. wrote a question to the Archdiocese of Munich-Freising: 'Is it true that the Catholic clergy is of the general opinion that a devout Catholic cannot be an anti-Semite?'"
Maximilian T. had joined the NSDAP in 1927 and described himself as an anti-semite - and wanted to know exactly what his church's position was. The answer has also been preserved:
"Within a week, Father Rudolf Hindringer, secretary to Cardinal Faulhaber, answered Maximilian's question as follows: 'If anti-Semitism means hatred against a certain group of people, it is not permitted according to Catholic moral teaching.' 'However', he continued, 'it is different if the aim is pursued without hatred, so that a group of people no longer has such a great influence in the financial system or in the state civil service, which is neither in proportion to their number nor to their spiritual importance.'"
The atrocities committed in concentration and prison camps, behind front lines etc. were not driven by hate in first place, but by a strong conviction of "doing the right thing for god, leader and fatherland" throwing everything overboard humanism had taught since the Renaissance.
Your conclusions, a lot like the conclusions of this debate, are ambiguous. That’s why a lot of people call Peterson the dumb person’s smart person. Even if you don’t have an intuitive sense of “predicate logic,” you still should be able to discern between a provable statement and one that is non falsifiable. But people who follow Peterson don’t seem to know the difference between the two. His speech is three tiered. He uses a somewhat factual statement as a kernel of truth, then tethers that to statements that uses third order logic, meaning that he connects a somewhat true fact to something that an audience member can only subjectively understand. But third order logic would render the entire sentence as ambiguous or false. So people who don’t buy what Peterson says, can at least intuitively conclude that what he’s saying is irreproducible in the real world, or is non falsifiable and ambiguous.
*doesn't want a tennis match*
*makes it a tennis match*
They act like thinking that god was watching them ever prevented people from committing atrocities
If anything they just go "lol god is supporting me"
Yes, exactly. It has never stopped priests from molesting children. 65% of the US prison population identify as Christian. It clearly didn't stop them.
Seriously.... if you believe God is so much on your side that He will help you win a football game... you will have no trouble justifying any action you take as ordained by God..
gods have a great tendency to support whatever the believer wants to do
"Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”
-Voltaire (possibly)
@@user-gk9lg5sp4y
You amped it up there. More power to you, if you get watt I mean.
War is one of the #1 killer And most of it is from religious beliefs.
Merely beliefs regardless of believing in God. Most wars are in the name of God and religion? I disagree. They may claim that God helped them prevail in the end, but the main motivations are usually natural resources, land, and pure domination. Survival and tribalism, yes. Religion, not so much.
"Our God/Gods will guarantee we prevail" is not the reason why they went to war. They wanted land and natural resources. God is merely an excuse and used to give them hope. Most wars are for natural resources, not in the name of religion.
@@ADUAquascaping Religion facilitates war by promoting emotional and irrational thinking. And often it actually IS THE reason for going to war, even if other motives also exist.
Name one other than the crusades , that religion was the cause of war. Peasants and the general populous are the usual warriors going to fight any war throughout history.Either by choice or force, and those people usually believe on a some sort of God. That doesn't make it a religious war. The majority have been about power, resources, control of other countries, defense, and vengeance. Most of those leaders and or warrior also believe that God will protect them because they believe they were on the right side of history. That's doesn't make a religious war.
@@ADUAquascapingthe Wehrmacht soldiers during W W I I wore belt buckles embossed with the phrase "Gott Mit Uns"
@@user-gk9lg5sp4y That does not mean they were motivated by religion to go to war. They were motivated by nationalism, and nationalism has killed a thousand more people than religiously motivated wars.
Religious wars as recorded by the Encyclopedia of War that looked at 6000 recorded wars over 5000 years, came out with 2% of wars were motivated by religion.
if the only reason you're not a horrible human being is because you think some higher power is watching you, then you are a horrible person.
Those three guys have shown their broken moral compass in the recent conflict in the Middle East, proving that even though the three of them come from different backgrounds and schools of thoughts, mounstrous actions still came from them all equally.
This has the syntactical coherence I would expect from 'completionist gamer'. Your moral compass seems equally askew.
@faustoferrari4303 funny.
I play games on the side when I am not managing my company, so the joke is on you.
Secondly, playing games doesn't make you immoral. it's your choices and the reasoning behind your choices, so what do you know about my logic and reasoning?
I used to respect harris a great deal until i saw the logical falacies in his recent opinions about the conflic so am justified in my point of view about him and the other two.
While you didn't hear a thing about my reasoning, and you judge me because i had a gaming channel for fun at one point?
Good logic, my man
It's bizarre that this conversation, 20th centuries evil villians, revolves around religion/atheism. When Mao, Stalin, Hitler were raised by imperial ideologies, a society where superiors are intrinsic to the social system. Surely this ideology is a bigger factor than religion?
I would like to see a debate between JP and Terrence Howard and watch people’s heads explode
IMO, the whole idea that "God's not watching" is any kind of atheist motivation is just stupid. Human nature is human nature. Period.
It's also a false equivalence to say that it (atheism) is "the same as" or "just as bad as" the role religion plays in both excusing and encouraging any action that a believer takes as deemed allowed, authorized, commanded, or compelled. It's like saying murder is the same thing as speeding. Yeah, they are both instances of illegal conduct; but the comparison ends there.
God watching clearly doesn't stop priests from molesting children. It clearly doesn't stop crime either. 65% of the US prison population identify as Christian. I don't agree on "human nature" though. We are not born with any kind of instincts, good or bad. Bad behaviour is learnt.
The SS was not generally atheist. If anything the majority was probably Christian.
Lots of the concentration camp guards murdered and tortured during the week and went to church on Sunday.
Tomi Reichental who survived the holocaust wrote a book , I was a boy in Bergin Belsen and made several TV documentaries about his experiences tracked down a female guard who was a mass attendee and helped clean the church and washed and ironed the priests vestments can easily tell you how religious lots of the camp guards were.
He was 9 years old in Bergen-Belsen and more than 30 of his family members were murdered by the 'good ' Christians who attended church regularly.
Atheism was banned in Nazi Germany.
German soldiers were Christians. 98 percent of them were Christians. Murray is just wrong.
So was everyone else in most of Europe. What's your point?
The religious in general, and Christians specifically have a hard time understanding a lack of belief.
Those that lack belief are so closed off by following the ideas of others that they can’t see how blind they truly are.
@@mediocreatbest7574
I believe in Zeus.
@@VaughanMcCue better than nothing!
@@mediocreatbest7574
A wild imagination serves most people well.
Simply demonstrated Peterson has a very week principle and mind that require religion to guide him in order to live an ethical life. Furthermore, Peterson seems to have picked up this habit of laughing and giggling to mask when his point or argument has failed, as well as trying to over-talk someone by throwing somewhat related but random catchphrases to see which one might stick in order to digress his opponent's train of thoughts. Sad.
"The Mesopotamians over perhaps several tens of thousands of years"
JP is famous for these. His best one for me was when 'debunking' the communist manifesto he stated, "the majority of the animal kingdom is made up of hierarchical structures". In reality, its less than 1%.
@@whatsthatnow308 Even if that were true, the wild animal kingdom isn't human civilization either, so he's not just wrong in his argument and evidence, but has a patently pseudo-intellectual (and false) premise.
I think this point has become the most frustrating in recent times, and it’s being pushed by Peterson, in tandem with him implying atheist don’t behave like atheists and if they did they’d be going around killing and causing chaos indiscriminately. It’s honestly disgusting, it’s ad hominem masquerading as sophistication and is no different than the attitudes of the people Peterson claims to be against, he is a textbook example of a hypocrite, and a dangerous one.
I hate when people give stalin as and example for everything, like it's this or stalin and that's it, it's like saying there is two colours or emotions
What? Well if the shoe fits...Anyway, Stalin is used far less as an example of unbridled evil than this Austrian rival.
Stalin Jewish Bolshevism
Peterson always shows up with a word salad of terms unfamiliar to most people in an attempt to demonstrate how clever he is. Harris, in contrast, used much simpler terms that anyone can understand.
Little words. Little Ideas. Little minds. Big words. Big ideas. Big minds.
@@tommcfadden5232 I'm sorry that your education was so sorely neglected.
What's Peterson babbling about? So dissapointing.
Learn to spell before you bad-mouth your betters.
He has the best words 😂
Jordan's recent approach/opinions towards Russia, past and present, comes down yo the fact that he spent weeks in a russian detox hospital getting over an addiction and it was all filmed, so he will not say a word against Putin or anything that is critical
Show the videos
We make this stuff up. It’s easier to imagine a power outside ourselves, than to test reality.
The first treaty Hitler's Germany ever signed was with the Vatican, whereby the state would recognise the autonomy of Catholic clerics in exchange for them staying out of German politics. Hitler was a Christian and believed God was on his side. He also had a fascination with old Norse and Germanic deities. Nazi Germany wasn't a secular state. Modern Germany is, as is most of Western Europe and the United States (despite what far right Republicans want you to believe, the US was specifically founded to be secular).
Hitler was a delusional psychopath with a hunger for evil.
He had a Catholic upbringing, like so many Germans at the time, but actually became an opponent of Christianity as he thought the bible was too Jewish! This was before WWII.
When he spoke of God, he did not mean the God we know from the bible, but rather some deity that would take special care of the German people and who would "let iron grow".
His 'making a deal with the Catholic church" was 100% opportunistic and the same can be said of the leadership of the church at the time. Either that or they were naive or weak.
I grew up with the mantra, “The Jews killed Jesus” in church, from teachers and family. For me, the holocaust and religious teachings went hand in hand. I’m just glad I know better now.
Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism. Jews did kill Jesus framed the Romans then built a nwo elsewhere sound familiar? 9/11 usa. Jews are now black not judeo Christian so the can colonialize Israel on Palestine
Sam wrecked Peterson and the bias moderator.
Jordan Peterson is the most bombastic orator I have ever heard. Utter bellend.
Question: Has JP EVER read and quoted a book by a woman? Ever, in his whole life??
Well that depends on what you mean by "quote" and "woman" and "ever," and you might think it's trivial, but these are the axiomatic inquisitions that embody the sublimation of the substrate of the underlying logos of the substructure of our shared grammatical knowledge, and you might say "well that's not necessary," but even Nietzsche won't unbridle you from the universal, metaphysical truth of that, bucko!
"I am radically dependent on being surrounded by as many happy people as possible."
Murray is a well dressed and well spoken fascist.
Definitely 🙄
Murray is a fascist how exactly? I don’t think you have the remotest idea what the hell you are talking about at all.
He`s also well paid for his service to Zionist fascists.
Yes, and it's a shame Sam seems more enamored with Murray now than he was at the time of this debate.
Since when is Murray a fascist? Isn't he just a normal conservative?
Peterson is highly intelligent but that does not mean he is always right. Harris isn’t always right either but in this case he is totally on the nose! I was completely awed by Harris until I watched his Israel has the right to commit genocide video.😟
Thank you Sam harris, again and again and again😊
Wow! This is the type of discussion we should have! Very logical, very informative and intellectual! ❤not pointing religious scripture for answers and explanation’s. Anyone who is literate in a sense of understanding would know all the scriptures on the planet have rooms for improvement.
0:50 Sam its called nationalism. Right wingers dont even know they are against communism because of the precious kings and czars had the "royal blood". And because Marx had the nerve to support the union during the civil war.
Douglas Murray shouldn’t have interrupted, especially since he completely missed Sam’s point.
Sam is spot on when he says that lack of belief cannot be directly attributable to a crime. If a Christian stones their neighbour on the sabbath for working, it is directly linked to a text. If an atheist does it, it is not linked to any specific text.
That’s his point!
three males.... no one reacts - Peterson is saying a lot of bullshit - and his arrogance is imberrising to watch..
When Murray said “none of them thought god was watching them” I kept waiting for thunderous laughter from the crowd… and waiting… and then I hear them clapping?????
It’s always the dumbest, most 1 dimensional, sound bite-able statements that elicit hoots and hollers from the masses.
Absolutely don’t agree with the statement that religious people don’t go to wars and I’m not even talking about inquisition. Communist people were mostly religious(yes Soviet Union tried to eradicate the religion but vast majority of people believed in god).
The same goes for current Russians. I have seen like a hundred interviews with POWs who believe in god or whatever.
My humble opinion- saying atheism caused more wars is like saying some other race is less worthy than your race.
Main religion of Russia to this day is Orthodox Christianity
URSS didn't try to eradicate religion.... seriously...
URSS removed religion from the government, from common laws..
It's totally different
Most wars have not been fought in the name of atheism or religion. They are fought for natural resources and land. Even if they use God for hope or an excuse, that isn't the reason why most wars are fought.
Your analogy is only true if atheism is also considered a social construct.
@@alangalantin8614 you are right, I phrased that way because I have had so many arguments with people who got no clue what was happening in Soviet period and they argument was that all soviets were atheists…
On a deeper level, Soviets reestablished the church to brainwash them with propaganda.
All in all, my point Peterson and moderator or whoever that person in the middle are completely wrong on this topic in this specific case
@@ADUAquascapingI totally agree with your statement ,, I was just perplexed by Peterson’s and that person in the middle takes which I find very shallow. Kudos
"God was not watching them" bc the leaders that they served was their god. Stalin, Adolph, Pol Pot - they were the god for those people who followed them.
Kermit the fraud
Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism. Jordan Peterson gatekeeper for Jewish interests
It’s because a “religion” doesn’t necessarily mean a belief in God or whatever; it’s simply that’s which provides meaning. That’s why JP is confused, but I just wish Sam could have articulated that.
There are three men talking but one of them can’t help it and revert to rambling on about what he thinks ; but not in philosophical sense ! Guess who ?
He has no life experience and is prejudiced to one way of thinking ! And would like to advise politicians on how to govern Canada; sad .
The Nazi party was explicitly religious. I really can’t understand why it’s become a common talking point that the Nazis were atheist.
3:29 “What did the NKVD have in common with everyone who oversaw the gulag, The SS…”
German military belt buckles had "Gott mit Uns" (God with us) inscribed on them
H!tler is quotes as saying
“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter”
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
Among many other statements.
You cannot attribute the Actions of WW2 Germany to secularism, the culture was religious through and through.
It really helps your argument when it isn’t false.
Communism origins Jewish Bolshevism fact
Debating blind beliefs is like banging your head against a wall. You get nowhere and your head will hurt.
Murray uses few words to say a lot, Peterson uses many to say nothing...Harris seems to have figured out how to use them to make sense.
Beautifully said.
The point that Sam is trying to make is that actions are based on ideas, rather than an absence of ideas. Atheism is not a set of dogmas, it is a rejection of certain dogmas. Now, perhaps when a belief in God is not there, the human brain is very susceptible to other dogmas that are structured like religion, but without a transcendent God, and in its place, a personality.
Just pointing out that "robbing a liquor store" means taking the money they have, not stealing a bottle of whiskey or something.
Who made Jordan an expert in politics and history. He can only preach me about psychology.
He crowned himself an expert.
Murray and Harris speaking in recognisable phrases and making cogent points, and then.....Peterson pipes up like a bad fart in a space suit.
“Moderator” waits for Harris to stop talking, ignores what was just said, and takes the discussion in another direction.
Wow... Peterson does come across as a idiot when paired to the likes of Murray and Harris.
It doesn't require a convoluted appeal to some incomprehensible transcendent supernatural authority's arbitrary list of rules to know the difference between harm and well-being. The word "morality" is not prescriptive; it is merely descriptive of whatever set of principles any individual follows to live their idea of a "good life". Most theological ideas of morality is that we all must be treated like psychopaths on a short leash. And yet, how many of us really need to be reminded, "now remember: don't rob, rape, or kill anyone today." The reason most of us don't do those things isn't because we are complying with some externally imposed rules, but simply because it is not in our nature. And the minority of those whose nature is to behave in such harmful ways are unlikely to be deterred by threats of punishment or promises of reward for compliance anyway.
OMFG, Peterson loves to listen to his own bull. Can he ever make a straight comment without beating around the bushes.
One of the only things you need to understand is that atheists were amongst the first people sent to the camps because Hitler understood that they were likely to be resistant to his mystical dogma. He openly stated that religiosity was necessary to facilitate the spread of nazism.
What caused the holocaust? The great depression and desperation. Religion had nothing to do with it
The moderator is rewriting history. German soldiers had "Gott mit uns" God is with us.
It’s actually simple, people who blindly follow any ideological system, religious or not end up doing horrible things. Look at the world right now.
People that act morally only because of internal or external sanctions are not moral, they're fearful.
the fact that people take pseudo-psychiatrists seriously when he tries to argue history, says all about people who take perterson seriously at all.
The Nazi's were Christian, so the host talking about SS having atheism in common with Mao is just flat out wrong.
The idea that humans can`t be good without fear of punishment from a supposed supernatural being is an insult to mans intellect and abilities for rational thinking. Have some self respect and think better of yourselves. Damn that shit pisses me off
You could tell from the body language which side the moderator was on. Leaning away from Harris, interrupting him. Peterson talked forever without saying anything but the moderator would have let him go on forever.
Douglas Murray should not be a moderator for a debate. He is just another debater.