What is Canon in Persona 4?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- This video isn't an end all be all for Persona 4, but it is the most consistent way to look at the series and in order to be most fair is how I have decided to consider canon in my P4G analysis series. Hope you enjoy! Don't hurt me! Not canon does not mean not valid!
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There's a lot of ways to consider Canon. This is more to explain why I didn't use extratextual sources in my P4G Analysis series. That way I could give the most factual/certain interpretation and then you can add on whichever other things you prefer to see as Canon yourself after the fact. Enjoy!
Honestly, even without this video, i never would have questioned why you didn’t bring up the spin-offs. This is the ultimate Persona 4 Golden analysis, not the ultimate Persona 4 Mythos analysis or something. Hearing your thoughts on what counts as canon is interesting, but i do just want to point something out: two things can be canon to each other without being explicitly written by the same people. For example, look at The Legend of Zelda. The series is over 35 years old, so it’s basically guaranteed that not every game shared the same writers, but you can put basically every game in the series into a timeline. Another, perhaps better example is the Metroid series, to which the same thing applies but without the split timeline-thing Zelda has. Examples outside of the gaming world include things such as Star Wars or Marvel and DC. Basically, just because two pieces of media were written by different people, that doesn’t mean they can’t be part of the same canon. Of course, i don’t mean to belittle your point or imply that you’re wrong or something, i just wanted to showcase a different perspective. This was still a very well researched video, and i am excited for future videos in this series
Honestly, regardless of how you view canon, you don't really need the spinoff games for your videos. Persona 4 Golden covers the characters more than enough as it is.
Even characters like Rise and Adachi, who are among the few I found to be consistently interesting across all the games, you don't really need the spinoff material to cover. I mean what were Rise and Kanji's projected video length? ...An hour? You aren't hurting on content or material. =P
Yeah, P4AU touches on Adachi's own moral code and both P4AU and DaN covers Rise's devotion to her friends and how much she's emotionally invested in them, especially Yu, but as far as a character analysis goes, this is all covered in the base game.
The only character analysis who might benefit from the spin-offs is Yu. And even then, the spinoffs only solidify what the game told us. The only thing interesting about it is how the spinoffs contradict the perception the anime has given people on Yu.
The answer is everything and Golden replaced Vanilla
I like the idea of Shadow Yu in the context of when it’s presented in the story. In a meta way, one could see this as this Yu Narukami evolving from a game adaptation character to being his own person. The choice to cyclically groundhog day his last day in Inaba is a choice that many players would not do, whether its because they wanted to NG+ or simply happy with things as they are, unaware of the bigger mystery to be unraveled. This is a choice that THIS Yu Narukami faces, a culmination of this deviation from the dource into his own realized character.
Perhaps I’m reading too far into this, but I think it’s an interpretation worth considering.
It's funny, John Rizzo made an amazing Persona 3 analysis a few days ago. He considered every single piece of audiovisual media that involved P3, even the stageplays. He used the different interpretations of their characters to shape up an overall idea of who they were without exactly sticking with just one version of them. All options are valid when it comes to analyzing games, so it's pretty cool to see how differently people go about this.
I think it's a matter of asking "who exactly is this" versus "overall, who is this" - both have valid different answers that one can search and analyze to understand. I find a lot more personal value in the solid "who exactly is this" question and that becomes impossible to analyze if one takes into consideration things that exist in total opposition to other media and aren't made by the OG creators
@@HidinginPrivate For what it’s worth, and my opinion may be worthless.
I think your approach to what is, and is not, cannon. Is the correct one. In this case, I don’t actually believe “all opinions are valid when it comes to analyzing games” like Xavster said. I think that is objectively incorrect when dealing with the topic of what is and isn’t canon.
Anything that is not directly written or overseen by the original creator just cannot be canonical. I appreciate your dedication to this series and I’ve enjoyed it very much.
Keep going strong!
Adachi’s story in Ultimax is too good to not be canon imo
What is Canon is The protag always Meets Yosuke the first day of school and doesn't talk to him or help until after Chie extends a hand to him first making you/Yu show that same appreciation to Yosuke the next day
showing if someone from the school didn't try to talk to him he wouldn't try to get close to anyone, probably showing how before coming to Inaba the protag was constantly changing schools and Locations thanks to his parents work situation
That last part you admit is conjecture so it can't be certain but yeah meeting yosuke is def canon
@@HidinginPrivate fair enough
11:27 This is something that I even noticed in *Golden*. It was very apparent to me that the ski trip was added in Golden not because of its timing but because Yukiko was especially sadistic, Rise was even more clingy, and Naoto became more awkward.
Right, like in the group date cafe scene (which gets played up in the anime too) yosuke thinks the idea is stupid but for the sake of having the scooters, the writers make him try to pick up girls. Not saying it's outta character just odd
@@kaitlynmorgan8097 Eh I mean, he himself is the one who pitched in the idea. He acts like he did it just for the joke, but it's not clear cut that's truly the case.
I think Arena and Ultimax events are genuinelly canon because in the golden epilogue, Yosuke mentions the how may was a crazy month or something.
I've always viewed the P4, Golden, Arena, Arena Ultimax, then Dancing to be the canon of the P4 series. Only thing I could see in game or story wise that woul day otherwise is the lack of the Investigation Teams Ultimate Personas. Although the only reasoning for that is because they're acquired through player determined actions rather than automatically through story like they were for the S.E.E.S team. Great content btw, keep up the good work.
the flanderization of akihiko in the spinoffs kills me so much as he was my favorite in P3
Rip
p r o t e i n
Might be spoiling myself if this was going to be a suprise, but will you be covering Yu in the character analyses? You frequently mention how flanderized his confidence and "Chadness" is in the spinoffs, so it'd be cool to see a breakdown of who he actually is in the games, even though he's supposed to be a blank slate.
I'll probably keep that segment as exclusive to the full p4g analysis video bc idk if it would be super long but yeah I plan to cover it
I take P4/Golden, the Arena games, and... at least certain _story_ parts of Dancing All Night as canon. Q and Q2 are... _dubious_ at best, and the anime is... I'm not sure how else to describe it other than a different kind of canon. It's a perspective of canon. I do love that it made Yu into more of an actual person, so to speak. Just... the anime is canon to the anime. I dunno I'm bad with words 😅
I think I understand what you mean. Like the anime is sort of it's own Canon. Not connected to the official, but a sort of alternate take ig.
I love the game more than the anime but I wished some choices matched some of what the anime did.
Also in the p4g epilogue , yosuke refers to the events of arena being crazy in may.
Personally I always saw the games themselves as canon, that includes both the 2 fighting and dancing games for P4. Plus any answers that the creators give out in supplementary material and interviews.
But when looking at things like the anime it’s just a new take on the original text. Like when comparing a novel series to a film series adaptation.
I’m actually pretty interested in your opinion on not just you but the different interpretations of each of the Hoshino era protagonists.
Personally I really like the anime adaptations of each protagonist. They have certain similarities but enough differences between them to have them be unique and fit into their respective groups.
GREAT analysis, i have never thought about the concept of the word ''canon'' as much before, i absolutely agree with everything said in this video
Lol well it's definitely a complicated topic and we can't exactly know for sure, but I think this is the most logically consistent way to look at it, atleast as a base
Damn, didn't expect a nugget of philosophy/epistemology from this analysis series. This already sets this series apart from the rest.
Haha, the principle of noncontradiction is indeed cool
Well gotta say this,
For what is Canon, especially for this Topic for Persona 4 as a whole, is that they are all Canon due to them being Official Works to Atlus.
& while there are Inconsistencies, these Inconsistencies are basically Different Formulas but in the End, still the Same Solutions.
it's like Math, what are the Equations that can equal to 4? Well...
1+3, 2+2, 0+4, etc...
in other Words, these "Inconsistencies" you say, are not really Bastardised Versions of Persona 4 rather that they are other Ways to to explain & most of all expand the World of Persona 4...
& this, isn't new, even in the World of Megaten...
So let me give some Examples (based by your Vid):
Yosuke in P4/P4G: Loving Inaba
Yosuke in P4D: Hating Inaba
Explanation:
While Yosuke said he "hates" Inaba, it doesn't mean he Totally & really hates Inaba at all. Just like anything, there are some things we disklike in the Things we really Like...
P4G: Not Much Cutscenes/Moments with Marie
P4G Anime: With alot of Moments with Marie
Explanation:
The Moments with Marie in the Anime are not exactly becuz "they are there for No Reason", rather the Anime was made to show what could've been in the Game.
P4 Yu: Not Drunk
P4 Anime Yu: Drunk
Explanation:
In Game, you as a Player can make Yu a Perfect Character so doing something different for Yu in Anime, shows what other Characterisation he could also have. So Yu being Drunk in the Anime, shows that even he isn't exactly Perfect...
P4 Yu: Doesn't have a Shadow
P4 Anime Yu: Has a Shadow
Explanation:
This is by No means to contradict the Game (based by your Reply I've read in the Comment Section) as this Shadow Yu is basically a Relatable Feeling towards the Character on us the Audience.
As Players who played P4/P4G, we all have this Feeling of not wanting to leave the People we have become close & connected to. At 1st, Yu didn't have a Shadow however as he grew as a Solid Character, there's a Part of Him (a Shadow) that didn't want to proceed/progress or move forward due to all the Great Moments he had, so by facing this Part of Himself that wanted a Blissful Stagnation, Yu (& us) are able to realize more of The Truth of Life & Growth.
True, these Spinoffs/Adaptations are not exactly Perfect, but I wouldn't say that they are not Canon or Semi-Canon, because even if most of these P4 Projects are not really from the OG Directors & Writers, they are Canon in a Universal Perspective.
I totally agree with your view of shadow Yu and Yosuke "hating Inaba", i love my mom but you will always catch me complaining about her and the place i live, this by no means means that i hate her or hate the place i call home, simply i love her so much the things about her i dont like drive me up the wall but thats people we arent cut and dry, i dont expect yosuke to sing inabas praises because he still lives his life valuing the lessons he's learned and thats all i could want from him
"For what is Canon, especially for this Topic for Persona 4 as a whole, is that they are all Canon due to them being Official Works to Atlus"
-->See the problem with that idea is that Atlus isn't a source, because "Atlus" isn't a person. Given enough time, Atlus could even end up being composed entirely of different people than were present at the point of origin, much like the Ship of Theseus.
Nice overview of Persona 4 Canon. Yeah the oversimplifying of some characters does suck sometimes especially when its after their big arcs. Hope they improve on that for future spin offs. But all the spin offs do have great charm regardless. I think what sets Persona 4 different is due to how the Shadow World functions and open for new threats to emerge while keeping the TV theme largely consistent and complimenting the major themes of the original Persona 4 and Golden.
Thanks for this video! It's frustrating how many people bring up random aspects from media no one has ever heard of to justify some crazy theory. The games themselves are all we need, there's plenty to discuss about them
I personally treat P4A as “canon” in the sense that something along the lines of the events in P4A definitively happened considering it’s events are referenced in the true ending of golden, but because of the multiple stories for each character and lack of a consistent writing team it’s hard to get to far into specifics without finding things that feel odd or don’t make sense
great vid, I personally think that p4g all the way to dancing is canon, but the animes give a good understanding and new perspective on some of the events of the game. Marie, for example i think was handled wayyyy better in the anime adaptation, and giving narukami an actual internal struggle made him way more human as a character, (also cool that they referenece his shadow in arena!) but its undeniable that certain aspects are just not consistent with the games. i use the same reasoning with a lot of the protag name drama
I take the interpretation that most spinoffs are a sort of loose Canon but are too inconsistent in writing quality and lore details to take anything certain from them as an interpretation of the characters.
I, myself, normally disregard most spinoff material except the bits that genuinely add to my understanding of a character, like Shadow Yu. Not to be confused with protein-esque flanderizations. I guess I treat it less like actual material and more like character explorations? Kinda like, say, alternate endings in Nier/Drakengard games, just a way to better understand characters while not completely taking the actual events to heart. That's my interpretation, anyway.
I wouldn't say Shadow Yu is really a reference since P4AU's Shadow Yu behaves very differently from the anime and offers a very different insight on Yu's character.
@@azureorpheus4293 Same I like the protean gag but its not at all the same type of character insight and exploration as the P4 animes Shadow Yu
@@zeveria7206 his battle intro animation is a reference, at least
5:50 Minor correction. I double checked Dancing all Night's credits and Hashino is listed as the "Creative Producer".
Personally, I feel that as long as Hashino had a core role in the project, then it's canon unless stated otherwise. If he didn't, then it's non-canon unless stated otherwise. I feel the creator should have the final authority over their own art regardless of my own opinion to its quality or consistency. So overall, I'd say Persona 4/Golden, Arena/Ultimax, and Dancing All Night are canon.
And....yes, that includes Detective Naoto as well, no matter how much the fans might not like it or whether or not it even makes sense. As far as I can tell, there's no real contradictions. Just parts that don't seem logical. Like Naoto's hair growing so fast...but then you could say the same thing for Nanako in Golden's ending. The only argument I've seen on contradiction are fans claiming two people (Sousei and Sho) cannot have the same Persona (Tsukuyomi) but...that's obviously not the case. Yu and Marie, Yu and Adachi (x2), Futaba and Baofu, and so on.
Bad writing isn't linked to canon. It's simply bad writing and nothing more. Take the spin off games, anime, and manga for example. I'd say the manga had the least flanderization out of all of them...but it's still not canon. The spinoffs have flanderization due to the large casts and how short the stories are. The anime characters are flanderized for a similar reason and because (IMO) the writers had to take a lot of creative liberty, especially with Yu, who comes off as very different from the games. But the anime isn't non-canon because of writing issues, it's non-canon because it isn't tied to the creator.
As for Q and Q2...I feel their canon status is inconsequential since they were written in a way where it just doesn't matter. I mean they would be canon by my own standards, but the real question, I think, is how seriously the Q games should be taken when analyzing the characters considering that the Q games don't seem to take themselves seriously.
doesn't detective nato get retconned by persona 5? i heard thats a thing.
@@iguessthisismyworkaccountl8437 The only argument I've heard is that Sousei and Sho share the same Persona (Tsukuyomi).
Some fans think this shouldn't be possible, even though we've already seen several characters share the same Persona. In Futaba and Baofu's case, the Persona was also radically different, similar to how Tsukuyomi is presented in each case.
I can't say for sure why some fans think everyone must have a unique Persona, but I'm guessing it comes from the belief that some of them have that Personas are supposed to be "your inner spirit" or "your past life" or something crazy like that. I've seen quite a few claim that Yu is "Izanagi reborn", even though there's nothing to suggest this being the case and quite a going against it.
Things like Detective Naoto and P3 Trinity Soul in my eyes aren't canon because if they are willing to blatantly contradict it down the line, it means it wasn't all that important in the first place.
Nanako's hair was in pigtails pretty much all game it'd look longer untied.
@@PinClockFuntime So where's the contradiction then?
@@zeveria7206 Detective Naoto is about Naoto's hair length and path she takes with her occupation, views, and Persona as well as Rise's roles, which all contradict Dancing All Night which does have Hashino involved in some capacity
Trinity Soul states Adults don't have and lose their Personas, as shown with Akihiko. Arena which has more involvement from Atlus later has Akihiko travelling the world and keeps his Persona (alongside the rest of the P3 gang that also keep them), and later down the line there's Zenkichi in P5S that gets a Persona in his 40s.
I’m my professional opinion. Anything with Adachi is canon, and that’s a trudachi fact
The Trudachi Timeline
I don't typically comment on videos cause it makes me slightly nervous but I this is something I kinda have thoughts on so I thought I'd go ahead and leave one! And also cause I love your P4 series of videos and I thought I should say something on at least one of em lol.
I think your basis of what's canonical makes sense, especially since you're making an analysis series. It's definitely the most logical to analyze characters in what is basically their purest forms. Although I do personally disagree with your reasoning being who wrote and directed the games dictates canon, I again think it makes a lot of sense for what you're doing and I respect it!
To give my own perspective on canon, I'm someone who both likes playing around with the characters and what scenarios can happen while also being someone who wants to stick as closely to "canon" as I can. In doing so I've created this sort of hierarchy in my mind that is as follows: The games trump ALL other forms of media. The mainline games trump the spin-offs. Re-releases trump the originals.
To give an example: Character X says they like marshmallows in a spin-off game, but say they hate marshmallows in a mainline game, I'd say them hating marshmallows is the canon version. As I consider the mainline series more important
However if a spin-off says Character X likes Character F platonically, but the drama cd says Character X likes Character F romantically, I consider the platonic feelings to be canonical
When it comes to re-releases, if an event happens in the original but is removed from the re-release, I consider that event to be non-canonical(to relate it back to the video, I consider golden to be canon over vanilla P4)
There's a bit more to it than just those but I'll spare the details as this comment is already a tad long
TLDR: I consider both main games and spinoffs canon within reason. I think stuff like animes and mangas are usually just retellings of the story so they're inconsequential
I know this is definitely a messy and, admittedly, kind of dumb way of organizing canon but it's the one that makes most sense too my goopy goblin brain.
I apologize if this is at any point hard to understand, I'm not super accustom to writing out my opinions so I'm pretty rusty in that regard
Everything is, in context of the games though and romances and stuff like that I'd say it's the players own choices that reflect their own continuity. E.G: Ren maybe the protagonist of P5's anime, Yu maybe the protagonist of P4's but if you named your character fat greg and decided to romance Naoto or Makoto etc, then that's your own canon.
Probably also worth noting that Persona 3 Portable is also canon with Catherine seemingly set within it's own timeline.
What do y'all think of "Danganronpa IF" type canon where events contradict but the original author approves the original characters depicted as acting within canon characterization. Considering the Persona sub-franchise came from an "IF" spinoff, doesn't seem unreasonable lol.
Like the author saying "This didn't happen, but if it did, this is exactly what this character would do." Obviously the events can't be considered canon, but any contextualization of the characters' actions could include broader inferences from patterns of behavior and revelations in the spin off work. Say Yosuke and Kanji both come out as some form of queer in some mobile rhythm game released only in Haitian Creole but the story team acknowledges the characterization as canon, you could canonically read their boy crushes through this lens in that case and just assume that they don't come out in the canon.
I just like Mukuro in Danganronpa IF more than her from the light novels & DR 3. Her appearance in 3 may be more canon…but I find her lame there.
Dang I didn’t even know there where so many p4 light novels
Lots of them (and a few I didn't even show) have never made it to the west
I learned a lot to take away from this video.
It makes me better understand the canonicity of other franchises.
Thank you for making these videos somewhat separate from the analysis.
To be honest though what’s canon is ultimately chosen by the company that owns it. The only times that has changed is when something is pretty much decided as bad. Like how there is 2 crash bandicoot 4’s now but the old one isn’t canon anymore 😂
I do strongly disagree with the idea that expanded universe material isn't canon just because it's not the original work and/or made by the original creators. Yes, some stuff like Tantei Naoto is blatantly not canon because it contradicts everything that came both before and after it, and the Q games are blatant fanservice that not even the characters are allowed to remember so you don't have to worry about whether or not it happened, but if you're talking development and themes, the Arena and Dancing games tie into those from canon and build on them anyway. But as much as I'll never agree with people who claim that only the base work is canon (and not just for P4 or even Persona), you actually make a good argument for your side here.
I'm glad you could atleast understand where I'm coming from but it feels odd for you to agree tantei naoto isn't Canon due to how it contradicts other properties when it doesn't contradict p4 or p4g, only the other spinoffs. Meaning you are sort of giving extra credence to p4a and Au based on nothing (from this comment atleast)
I do think p4 arena could with some confidence be considered canon,, but that's only bc some of the OG creators were involved- but if you're going on contradictions p4a contradicts more media than it affirms, and P5/5R contains no reference to the A/AU games so the only thing set after it in the timeline doesn't affirm its existence either (the before and after thing you mentioned) it just feels a bit like you aren't being consistent here. (From this comment atleast)
@@HidinginPrivate Fair, though I also felt it didn't fit with Naoto's development in P4/P4G as well as the direction of her character in later material had.
Love all your Persona videos! I'm curious on your thoughts on how the Satomi Persona trilogy canon relates to the Hashino trilogy. Specifically on the question of: When does the definition of canon exceed authorship? For example, are none of the Batman comics post-Kane/Finger non-canon? When does a series become so big that defining canon through authorship is no longer ideal and would you consider the Persona series to be at that point?
I think the easiest route to take is probably that there are multiple canons and depending on the Canon it may have loose ties to the original Canon. For me to analyze P4 and P4G though- it's hard to consider anything outside of them with much if any weight.
I'm not a comic book person really but I imagine p1 is Canon to p2, and the timeline split in p2 is the femc and malec version of the timelines- with the Malec version being "most Canon" since femc's Canon has gone back and forth over the years
@@HidinginPrivate Ye. I really like that take and how you handle canon in your videos is probably the smartest approach that could be taken in an analysis. I have the same multiple canons mindset when it comes to comics, but for Persona I feel they're similar enough and have few enough inconsistencies to consider them all one canon.
The p2 theory would be really cool but sadly the alternate timeline in P2 couldnt possibly lead to the modern Personas
@@HidinginPrivate there is no real "timeline split" in persona. The end of p2is creats a SMT world as the apocalypse has happened which gets reset buttoned by the protagonists, p2ep is Nyarlathotep trying to undo that reset. P2Ep then leads straight into p3. And has no bearing on wether the p3 protag is boy or girl.
@@ceresanimation150 Personally I view the two trilogies as the own time lines despite there being some connective tissue between them (Kirijo Group originally being part of the Nanjo Group, the Who's Who segments in Persona 3, Katsuya being mentrioned on TV in 5). Given that Shin Megami Tensei If and the entire Devil Summoner series and very possibly the upcoming Soul Hackers 2 all take place in the same timeline as the original Persona trilogy it would highly complicate and create multiple inconsistencies with the newer Persona trilogy.
@@julianrobertson1869 yeah but Q2 directly states that FemC is from another timeline (with Junpei stating they are from "two different worlds") which implies there was a timeline split of some sort.
In my opinion, determining canon is extraordinarily difficult in P4's case, because the single most important question has largely gone unanswered; that being the canonicity of Marie. If Marie ultimately is considered canon to the Persona universe as a whole, then she brings with her the P3 connection and Sho, due to her existence in Arena, with the implications of the origins of Labrys creating an argument for the first Q game, at least. "Canon" in this case can be largely determined by the connections between the characters and scenarios they play a part in, while taking care to consider what is referenced as true by the characters and world. The unfortunate drawback to this being that if determined canon to the series, Marie's presence also canonizes the horrific trend of the characters never being allowed to have their final Personas. At best, this implies they simply aren't allowed to reap the rewards of their personal growth. At worst, it implies the growth we see in their social links simply doesn't happen. It's a slippery slope to be sure, and I respect you for trying to make any sort of sense of it while trying to maintain the dignity of the writing and characters.
Actually what Arena says with it's canon is that if you're out of practice with your Persona, then it will go back to it's original. Which is why in Arena the Shadow Operatives all have their evolved P3 personas while the p4 crew has their original ones.
It's also why in P5 Strikers all the Phantom Thieves went back to their original personas.
@@CheesyLizzy Fair point! Appreciate the correction on that front.
@@CheesyLizzy see that’d be fine if it wasn’t even 3 months in between P4 and Arena
@@pillarsofsnow7940 I see it as something to do with Igor. The guy gives them the power and wants them to be using the personas during the adventure he sets them on. Once the adventure ends they then don’t have a reason to use it anymore. When something else happens someone in the velvet room will help them regain the power but they have to start again. It’s like how in Persona 5 you gain all them personas but by the time you play persona 5 strikers Joker has to regain them all again.
From my perspective it seems like the main characters lose the ability to use the wild card but they all get to keep the main persona. If the characters don’t keep using them they get rusty and then it reverts back.
For all we know Persona 3’s cast could of already had this happen to them but they chose to keep training because it would help them with what they do. All the other characters just finish what they need to do and then stop
Or it just shows that Arena does not follow the same storyline of the base game, the unquestionable canon, making it non-canon. If it contradicts Q, or Dancing you can argue which one is valid. If it contradicts the base game, then there's no argument
Damn I’ve been enjoying your p4 videos I beat persona 4 back when it came out and as well as golden when it moved to pc. I am currently replaying golden on my vita and I have to say playing the game and watching you is enjoyable
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm trying my best
@@HidinginPrivate and It is very apparent in your videos I love video games and I do like to look in to lore on games as well but you really put me to shame with these amazing in-depth videos I couldn’t stop myself from subscribing I eagerly await more content similar to these.
The only part of the expanded (bastardized) p4 universe that really truly bugs me, is when they get really weird with the jokes about Yu having a crush on Nanako. This guy steps in to help care for a neglected kid and this is how y'all treat him smfh
Yeah there's 0 romantic tension or weird Sisson stuff in p4. Not a single line of dialogue and then the spinoffs are like HE HAS A LITTLE SISTER BUT SHE'S HIS COUSING BUT HE LIKES HIS LITTLE SISTER OOOOOO
That is the point of the title, to give a critical hit where it hurt the most. Is true that he loves a lot his sister but not in that way.
...What the hell are you talking about?
@@LinkaDL Yeah it's surprising how many people forget that. They're all insults and low blows, like the carnivore who discarded her womanhood. Yu himself, even in those games, doesn't dote over Nanako he just cares for her.
12:06 I know I’m obviously very late, but this wasn’t Yu’s shadow it was Mitsuo’s shadow putting him under some type of hypnosis if I remember correctly
The problem is, since the introduction of the Amala Network in SMT 3 (and possibly even before that), everything licenced by atlas that can be tracked back to mainline SMT is canon. Just alternate universes where the divergent events/contradictions happened.
Honestly fair. The spin off are fun for the most part but there mostly just long form fan-serve for fan of the original work. Kind of like Star Wars spin off media.
I'm not super up with starwars but yeah I just felt this was the most fair way to consider the characters if I wanted to analyze them in p4/p4g. If people want to add other spinoffs into their view of Canon after the fact, this atleast gives a solid foundation to do so
Also its maketing the reson is every spin off everyone has the basic personas....is Marketing
I think what is considered canon should be kept to oneself and oneself alone. I kinda don't like the argument involving any kind of canon for any subject matter. I understand in your case you have to stress it out to do your analysis. But most of the time when the word 'canon' comes up, it mostly lead to unnecessary argument and divide within the fandom. Fan of one thing feels superior over another because its considered canon and act like dicks. In some cases ppl harass and stop artists from making fan-arts because they do not deem it canon.
Since you brought up the topic of spin-offs butchering character developments, Ido agree they are bad. But I do think there are also some characters that actually gets more fleshed out thanks to the spin-offs or animation. In my opinion the best way to go about it is getting the best part of all parties, and leave the bad apples behind. Some may say we can't have the cake and eat it too but I don't think we have to be too stingy about it since it is entertainment after all.
I don't think "not canon" has to mean not valid or not enjoyable though. I don't feel like it's stingy to consider something not Canon or loose Canon as long as you aren't one of those annoying people like you mentioned. At the same time leaving Canon up to leaving behind bad apples and taking good leads to really inconsistent apples in people's possession. Making the characters kind of vacuous. I think using my solution as a base, and then letting others add things on as they see fit after the point is the most consistent, but yeah unless it's for something like tethering out my analysis it's not widely important
I think another thing I tend to do with games like Persona is that I always consider myself playing a game different from an adaptation of that game to me Yu Narukami is not the same person as me Playing Persona 4, not every action he makes is something I would do but there also things I does I wish I did or thought to on my first playthrough, while this doesn't explain what is or isn't canon I agree that the most fair way to judge that is not with spin offs but with the base game and its re release
I think the issue with Canon overall tends to start with developers either lying so you buy the next product or conflicting sources of info, Producer says x is canon while Director and Character Designer say otherwise, a throw away line in a side quest links to games together when it could just as easily be a 4th wall break, its hard to pin down what is intentional and whats just a clever nod unless someone from the staff says so but i find the Japanese sense of Canon is far looser than the Wests simply because its not as important outside of the canon in the specific title IE what happens in Persona 4 is important to Persona 4 and nothing else, if Rise gets mentioned in 5 just take it as a reference and acknowledgement that we didn't forget her type of thing rather than "ok Rise is 21 now and she was 16 in P4 clearly P5 is 7 years later meaning Makoto was older than Nanako at the start of P4 but then Ken would be older and....." so on and so forth
A good methodology and a great video. I had no idea how messy P4 got and how many different people worked on the various spinoffs.
Great analysis yet again. I’ve only played P4G, but knowing all this info will make me pick and choose which other adaptations to play. Cheers. I’m
Thank god somebody addressed the King’s Game.
The amount of people who say that Yu is canonically this super ultra mega Chad who gets all the girls because of this one fan service scene, for me at-least is annoying as hell.
Don't worry about them, it's mostly just Persona fans making unfunny jokes as usual
Having the canon being the games P4 and P4G is the best foundation. Carrying player choices forward is very difficult, I think of Biowares attempts for Dragon Age choices carried into Inquisition via a website as an example. Arena and Dancing I regard as being pseudo-sequels that give more hints as to characters future plans while staying neutral enough not to outright deny other players choices. My favorite is how Dark Souls has every playthrough be a single universe with an infinite potential of parallels to interact with.
Yeah, with me I consider P4, golden, both arenas, and dancing canon since they can be explained fairly well (though I am confused as to why Teddie has kintoki doji again in arena)
this is just a theory of mine, but I believe the reason is the rules of the environment, as was shown in P4DAN, the environment (Midnight Stage, Metaverse, Tartarus, etc.) do influence how personas are summoned to how they can act, even tho it's cannon status is doubtful you also can see this in PQ, I believe the same applies to the persona forms, and the protagonist being the only one with the wild card can explain why in both Arena and Dancing he's the only one able to summon the ultimate form of his persona.
I gotta say, I really hate how much progress gets undone with spin off games. Its cool to see what's supposed to happen after main game's story, but man, I wish these people played the game before making some sort of sequel to them... P4AU even screwed up and softened P3 characters and their arc. Its also definitely weird to see awakened persona's not present, almost as if they never gotten through their struggles with MCs.
Also, I never thought of it the way you did, considering both P4 and P4G cannon, but different routes. I wonder if we could say the same about P5 and P5R, since they have more significant additions and changes.
I like to think of persona 4 dancing all night as a direct sequel.
Just going through rewatching some of these videos and I have to say that as someone who has Naoto as their favourite character in the franchise, the novel spinoff was declared "non-canon" and "never to be touched" purely off chapter 1 alone. To me what they did with Naoto in that story makes Akihiko's "simplification" a look like a blessing in comparison
I feel “bastardizations” is a bit harsh don’t you think? Coming from the wide world of superhero comics the idea that if the original team isn’t involved it’s not canon has always come off as dubious at best when it comes to larger stories. Emphasis on larger stories, if we’re judging Persona 4 as a single work of art that got several spin offs then 100% the original artist matter. But if “Persona 4” is a series of sort that could theoretically be added upon at any moment then I don’t think the original artist being there carries quite as much weight.
Ideas naturally change and evolve, that’ll happen regardless of whether or not the same people are working on it or not. The simple fact is that in today’s highly franchised world, old ideas are often expanded upon by different people in order to keep the series going, for better and worse.
In that regard I think it’s best to look at canon in terms of what’s theoretically possible. For example given the appears of a shadow Yu, and how the character is unambiguously called Yu Narukami, you could easily argue that Persona 4 arena Ultimax is canon to the anime. Or that since everyone still has there base personas that it’s canon to a version of the game where you didn’t max them out.
I mean hell, the very fact that it’s a video game inherently throws canon into a bizarre spot. There are so many different choices you can make throughout the game that creating any sort of unified timeline only works in the broadest strokes. Did Yu choose the drama club or music club? Basketball or soccer? Did he visit Nanako at the hospital? Did he date someone? Everyone? Is there name even Yu?
I think Pokémon of all things tackled this best when it implied that every single copy of the game is it’s own separate universe. Really every spin off, sequel, and adaptation is working off the idea of the game’s story and character, as there are no real canon events outside of that vague idea.
Again, I come from comic books. Every time there’s a new writer that writer tells a story based off their idea of the character and world, and that has created its fair share of problems. Comic book continuity is notoriously complicated. But fans all still trust that so long as it takes place in the main universe, and not some offshoot, somehow, someway, it’s canon. Does it being canon matter? Only sometimes when the writer feels like it, and bizarrely that actually makes things easier to follow. Like if we’re just ignoring shit then I guess I know everything I need to know. Reminds me of Avatar when Toph doesn’t know who Aang and Katara are talking about but just blows it off because if it matters she’ll find out.
Long ramble short, I like Persona it’s cool. Canon is best when you don’t really worry about it because it inherently won’t make sense if you do. Good video.
"change (something) in such a way as to lower its quality or value, typically by adding new elements."
That's what I meant by bastardizations. I just felt definitionally that was the best word for it. Anytime you have a concentrated serious story that Tues its themes, characters, and story to it's world lore- Canon is important. Because without an idea for how the world functions everything else falls apart with it. I do think it's not largely important what is and isn't Canon outside of p4/p4g but I atleast wanted people to understand why I wasn't taking them into consideration as they take a straightforward tale and turn it into spaghetti
It speaks volumes to me that the people writing the spinoffs/extratextual media extrapolate on minour or resolved character traits, rather than the subtle, and often moving or beautiful parts of what really made Persona 4 great. Its like _those_ were the best parts to them, and it makes me wonder why they even like this game in specific in the first place
Neat analysis on how weird canonizing certain events from certain adaptations can get.
The only cons I have with the video is:
1) I wouldn’t call taking liberties from the source material automatically “bastardization”. Some adaptations need those to work as either show or movie. You can’t just have stuff like the protagonists be a basic self-insert guy that requires player inputs or choices in the show, that would be kinda boring. That’s one of the reason most don’t really like Joker in the Persona 5 anime, he was pretty basic in that show.
2) I don’t think using the main people who wrote the games as the basis for an installment’s canonicity is the best foundation for canonizing them. Pretty sure George Lucas didn’t have involvement in every Star Wars Expanded Universe entry. But is that enough to consider them non-canon? No. It took until Disney buying the brand for that to happen. By that logic we should consider The Empire Strikes Back’s canonicity into question due to it being directed by a different guy. There will always be instances where the writers & the higher-ups have different takes on what’s canon or not. And unfortunately the higher-ups tend to have the most power on that part.
3) Not sure if taking the canonicity of the Q games is necessary, as they basically end with everyone’s minds getting wiped, so it doesn’t matter that much.
4) I wouldn’t call inconsistencies with the developments of the characters had in their debut game to spin-offs proof of them being non-canon. It’s more along the lines of “bad writing”. The Simpsons episode that reveals that Principle Skinner was actually an imposter, “The Principal & the Pauper” was a bad writing choice. But was that enough to make the episode non-canon? No, that required the series creator and other show crew members confirming it in interviews to do so.
I'm pretty sure that the little blurb you put in about Kanji being off-model in the anime is because the animators themselves changed multiple times during production. Don't quote me on that, because I don't 100% remember conclusively, but I'm pretty sure that was one of the many rocky points behind the creation of the anime.
That's fair, and I'm sure they hit some difficulties since ATLUS still wasn't a powerhouse financially or in name as well. Yeah p4 the animation is a fun time but hooboy if it isn't ugly
@@HidinginPrivate Yeah, they really aren't that huge, so their anime budget was kinda slim pickings.
I think the pretty parts are really pretty, but the not pretty parts are REALLY not pretty. xD
But I still consider it my personal favourite anime series. (I'm not a big anime watcher)
@@HidinginPrivate I doubt Atlus’ size would’ve made much difference considering how rough the p5 anime looked
@@Limit02 at least the persona 3 anime movies looked good
Did he look that off model in that shot? Looks fine for my normie brain. Probably because I’ve seen worse.
It's all canon. Even Persona 4 Driving All Afternoon
The true canon is knowing the killer mid way through the game because of youtube.
Anyway joke aside, it's pretty clearcut with P4.
Q games canon doesn't matter because nothing in those games carries onto their lives.
Dancing is apparently canon, shoutouts to the level of detail on everyone except Chie's portrait lmao
And for arena well, they expressly state it being so in the TGE.
Animation (I've only seen the highlights because trying to find the og and not goldens is impossible without piracy) seems like a normal retelling with played up "anime" stuff.
Which just leaves us with the manga, which I've not read, but Imagine to be all over the shop so pretty easy to discard for the sake of canon.
Great video again! My way of considering canon is whatever the original / first version of something was created. For the persona series clearly the games are the original but if a movie was originally was a book for example that’s the original and the movie is just an interpretation. Still holds value but whenever things pass through multiple hands so much gets filtered out and changed and that has to be considered when analyzing and comparing so I enjoy getting the “most pure” form to really understand the creators vision. This is why I personally will switch the language of things I watch to the original it was created in, especially with Japanese because there is SOOOOO MUCH NUANCE LOST purely through translations and I wanna know what was really said. This is just my analysis brain though, of course there are times for that and other times where the redone version is so good it doesn’t matter if it’s canon or not when you’re enjoying just for fun :P I’m glad you’re bringing this up because people are very finicky about the idea of “canon” which is very silly because to me it’s pretty cut and dry. I get so annoyed when people think their fanon interpretation or their poor memory holds merit over what literally actually happened, I wish people would consult canon before getting into discussions!! But that’s a different topic lol, can’t wait for the next vid!
I would make an argument for Q2's canonicity *particularly* if original Q is also canon. They are both incredibly muddy from a timeline perspective so regardless of any other factor (including writing credits) I'd go with "have both or have neither" for consistency.
I mean I fall on the side of neither. If one of them is just a licensed out ip project and the first one has only a single big name in basically an absent father role. Having some staff involvement atleast lends slightly more credibility to Q over Q2 tho, even if barely
@@HidinginPrivate Yeah, that's fair overall. I fall on both personally, but ultimately if the goal is to analyze the Persona 4 characters in the scope of *their* plot then your methodology makes total sense. Hate the reduction of characters though.
Here's my take on it.
I personally consider each of the games and side games canon
And I consider the mainline anime and mangas to simply be an adaptation for a different medium. Just like how many other games have been adapted for anime and manga.
And I consider any other light novels or manga that cover unique side stories to be loose canon if there's nothing that says it could or couldn't happen in the story of the games. Or just neat fanfiction if it is too contradictory to the continuity of the games.
Some people think that the side video games are not canon because they are not RPGs straight, even though Atlus came out with a timeline (an official one,) that pretty much stated that every Persona 4 game (including the Q series and vanilla P4) were canon to the Persona 4 timeline. It could be worse: It could be trying to discuss the Megaman/Kirby/Zelda timelines.
personaly i say that Yes P4&P4G are Cannon, as well as the Arena and Ultimax games with the Persona Q Games as Side stories Semi Disconnected from the Main story as in Persona Q it was taking place in between the Main stories of P3 & P4 ( by that i mean they literally took the Characters from the Mid point of their consecutive game, not at the beginning but not at the end ether, so their mostly in the mid of their Character ark) and PQ2 Had the P5 cast (+Akechi) teleported during a training session in Mementos after the Ocumura (Haru's Father) palace. but take this with a grain of salt as this is just my Head cannon
This is a nice take on canon. The Persona canon has made me dizzy ever since the Male MC and FemC split in Persona 3. At a certain point, I’ve just chalked it up to alternate timelines (especially after I experienced Persona 2 and Persona 1, which gave a timeline reset and a distinct branching path respectively). So in my mind, good ends, bad ends, initial games, updated rereleases, anime, manga, light novels, stage shows, and spin offs are all canon, but exist on some different timeline. I guess it would be the butterfly effect that causes the slight differences in character growth and events.
However, for analysis purposes I think you are 100% valid in your approach of just looking at Vanilla P4 and Golden. That is the most consistent way to read things. You shouldn’t have to deal with writing inconsistencies when writing an analysis. That’s just not fair to you.
I get why keeping to canon is important, but it always kinda surprises me when other people get into it. Like, the nature of storytelling necessitates cutting out irrelevant information for the sake of time, like the characters going to the bathroom, eating, or every minute of them sleeping. Yet, these things are part of being alive and can be assumed to happen in-universe even without explicit confirmation by the text. Thus the "full story" always has unconfirmed events in the gaps between "canon" ones. You can make an entire plotline that has little to no basis in canon but also has no evidence that it *didn't* secretly happen in-universe either. Ergo "noncanonical" doesn't mean "false" per se but yeah you don't have to take it into consideration because it's not true either
Everything is canon
Or
every dialogue options and game changing decisions you make is a different timeline in this universe
What is everything? - I appreciate the comment but also you typed before watching!
@@HidinginPrivate idk man I was doing the Sonic reference on twitter when they said everything is cannon
@@HidinginPrivate its probably the whole every action you take did happen and every action you didnt also happened, like when life gives you choices the you follow the path you yake for yourself but every option created another you yo follow those other paths
I can see P4 Arena being cannon, but at the same time unless your good at 2D fighters with complex combo mechanics then good luck trying to go through it lol.
P4 dancing all night is a lot more accessable to most persona players compared to the high skill ceiling of persona 4 arena... That and they actually did quite a lengthy campaign for that game, much longer than persona 4 arena.... And thus simply got me invested more. So personally I only count P4 Golden and dancing all night as cannon, the rest I feel like they just take place in a complete parallel universe that doesn't really add to the overall persona 4 plot.
I wanna start by saying nothing I am saying is probably the games staff intension going into the anime and Shadow Yu
So like I saw your explination for Shadow Yu as the whole point is that this character has no Shadow
I never took it that way, to me the reason the P4 protag has no shadow isn't because they are special but because they are a blank slate, you the player put a personality on them, this isn't so much a "no shadow Yu is canon because we see it" and more, I never took issue with it because to me giving Yu a shadow was no different than giving Namatame and Adachi shadows, shadow selves we see in the games because they are people and not self inserts, they have desires, backstories, lives we never saw and truths they would want to hide,
it could also be taken a step further to say it wasn't until Yu lied to himself that his shadow never showed itself Adachi says the only reason they go berserk is because we reject them but Yu has always been calm and collected until the threat of his friends disappearing forever happened and Margaret fought him to wake him up from his delusion, Shadow Yu is the final step in this characters development as he solved everyone elses truths but now its time to go home has he solved his own, and upon doing so he completes the world Arcana with the multiple truths he has discovered on his journey he faces Izanami no longer the man he was when he first came to inaba, he is no longer he pawn in a game but an Equal, she tells him does he see himself as a god and he doesn't answer because there is no need to she thinks only a Deity can face her unable to see Humanities strength has far exceed what she thought possible and laughs upon being defeated now forced to see the truth
But yeah sorry for the wall of text but there's a lot I wanted to say the more I was typing
Tldr: TO me Shadow Yu is Yu the anime characters shadow not You the players shadow because you wouldn't have one being a self insert but the anime is its own story with its own characters to a shadow for its protag makes perfect sense to me, still probably not Canon to Persona 4's intentions with its story
The reason izanami chooses Yu in the game as a participant in her game with Namatame and Adachi is because you don't hide who you are and exist in the optimal role of someone who seeks the truth at all costs. If Yu had a shadow, he suddenly loses his reasoning for being chosen in the first place. Giving Yu a shadow in p4/p4g undercuts the entire plot from existing as we know it. I didn't really explain in the video, just brushed over but this is more of why I said it.
@@HidinginPrivate really because both namatame and adachi have shadows too and adachi also has a persona upon accepting his shadow right in front of us, namatame on the other hand doesnt because he didnt understand what was going on just that he wanted to save nanako
I dont know to me Izanami saw potential in Yu(not the player you) unlike Dojima or Nanako and Nanako being child has even less to hide about herself as children are honest to a fault but guess her dungeon does show she hides her sadness to not feel lonely but in terms of who she is as a person is far more open than any of the main cast
If we go from videogame logic You the player cant actually be your most honest self because some dialog options are locked behind stat thresholds, playing the game my way without a guide there were tons of times i would straight up ignore social links until my courage was high enough to say the options i want
The anime clearly follows it own rules both for fusion and character dynamics, her seeing potential in Yu to still seek out the truth shows in full spade when he doesnt throw namatame in the tv despite the anger and hurt he feels having believed Nanako just died, having a shadow stops Yu from just being another generic chosen one with no depth and proper well rounded interesting and alive character to me, he has fears like anyone else but the bonds hes made have been able to help him just like he helped everyone else
@@HidinginPrivate Doesn't everyone have a shadow? I thought the only reason Yu's never manifested is because he never denied who he was. Like Yosuke and Chie's shadow didn't manifest immediately and Teddie's took quite awhile to form.
@@zeveria7206 to me everyone no matter who you are has a shadow as its a psychology thing, the only reason say the p5 cast dont wncounter their own shadows unlike Futaba is because their shadows come to them when they decide enough is enough, or in zenkichi's case his literal shadow starts talking to him on the ground
Cannon seems to be P4G (OG p4 anime timeline), P4u (yosuke manga route) , P4u2 (final route), P4D then Q (P4 route) and Q2 take place during P4G but the characters don’t remember it due to the worlds collapsing, the other mangas and P4GA aren’t cannon
Cannon is a weapon that shoots ball projectiles, silly!
No, canon is a camera brand!
My thoughts are that everything in Persona 4 Golden is canon except the epilogue, as the characters’ designs are directly contradicted by the side games. For examples Kanji’s hair still being dyed and Chie still having her shorter hair in P4 Dancing, even tho that epilogue would have had to take place before then
The best thing that P4D did was give me higher rez models to backport into P4G on PC.
Not sure I've seen the p4D models molded into p4g. Sounds cool
@@HidinginPrivate it's on gamebanana, it looks a bit out of place in town what with all the normal characters but not nearly as much in dungeon.
narukami in the anime is an asshole whilst the actual narukami is probably the sweetest guy you'll ever meet
For me all games are canon because they have officially taken place in a moment during the char´s lives. In Arena and Ultimax for example is official that P3 and P4 teams have known each other and will be stay as friends. Atlus´ll keep in mind those events for next games. I´ve seen that they even take in consideration the animes adding references or the most important: Yu´s personality as a funny deadpan weirdo, in the games. Let´s remember too for the some strange situations that SMT games have different worlds and as Margaret explained "there are different "yous" living in another worlds and doing different stuff" so everything is possible.
When does Margaret say that? If it's not from p4 you are sort of using your conclusion to justify your conclusion or using circular reasoning. Also kind of lost on what "officially takes place at a point in the character's lives" since you can't possibly write a story about a character that doesn't do that- unless officially means it for sure happened and once again that's assuming the conclusion. There was no consideration or reference to P4A or AU in P5 so idk what the future games thing is referencing either. The first P4 Animation completely changed Yu's character out of the "deadpan weirdo" type as well- although I wouldn't say he's a deadpan weirdo personally, he just plays the straight man most of the time
It wasn’t Margaret who said the “different yous“ line, but that line does come from Golden - Marie says this line when explaining the network features
@@dededeletethis9940 Yeah you´re right, has been a long time since that and I thought that it was Margaret when it was Marie. Thanks for the correction.
@@HidinginPrivate First of all I was wrong, it was said by Marie as pointed in the comment of above, my bad. But yeah she mentions that there is a multiverse, we can see for example how Velvet attendants play with time and space rules in the spinoffs. As far as I know all Persona games are canon, we can like the writing more or less and find even contradictions but like I said those events happened to the characters. There are tons of discussion about SMT different universes so we can say that everything is possible.
What are you talking about? Yu's personality in the games is borderline opposite of what we see in the anime.
Loved the video my friend
Thanks Shaz
@@HidinginPrivate :)
You got this video all wrong. Something doesn't HAVE to be made fully by the original creators to be canon. Take for instance all the media and spinoffs made for a franchise after the original creator's death. Just because they weren't made by the OG creator doesn't mean that that they're non canon by default. IMO for something to be canon it just meet two specific qualifiers. 1: It must not contradict any event found in the source material and 2: It must be officially licensed and/or approved by the rights holders.
As for Persona canon specificly, that's pretty easy to pin down. Almost all the Persona light novels/manga are alternate retellings and/or side-stories, not actual continuations minus a few exceptions. So 99% of them are 100% non-canon to the original continuity and are best are merely AUs.
As for Detective Naoto, despite it supposedly being bad (at least of what I've heard, I never read it) nothing in it contradicts the other games. Naoto being more feminine in Detective Naoto doesn't contract Naoto's far more androgynous presentation in 4 Dancing and the Arena games because there's a 5 year timeskip and people change. Persona 4 Arena and it's sequel Arena Ultimax are both 100% canon. 4 Dancing is also a canonical sequel to P4. Both Q games are non-canon because they are both actually just a dream, same with P3 Dancing and P5 Dancing. Royal and the FemC Route of P3P are both alternate timelines, so neither are canon to the main continuity.
Finally, while this is mostly headcannon based on some evidence from the games, (especially early persona) the entire devil Summoner series and SMTIf takes place in the same world as Persona 1 and 2 Innocent Sin, while all the future games and the canon spinoffs take place in the Eternal Punishment timeline. Basically the timeline goes like this: Raido 1 (mid 1920s) -> Raido 2 (Chaos Ending, 6 months after Raido 1) -> Original Devil Summoner (1992) -> SMT If (1994) -> Persona 1 (PSP Version, 1996) -> Persona 2 Innocent Sin (1999) TIMELINE SPLIT
Timeline A: Persona 2 Innocent Sin (1999) -> Soul Hackers 1 (2092) -> Soul Hackers 2 (2098)
Timeline B: Persona 2 Eternal Punishment (1999, Replaces IS on the timeline) -> Persona 3 FES (2009-2010) -> Persona 3: The Answer (one month after Persona 3 ends) -> Persona 4 Golden (2011-2012) -> Persona 4 Arena (One week after the epilogue from P4G) -> Persona 4 Arena Ultimax (3 days after Arena) -> Persona 4 Dancing (2013, 6 months after Arena Ultimax) -> Base Persona 5 (2016) -> Persona 5 Strikers (2017)
All anime and manga adapations, the P3P FemC Route, and Royal are all alternate timelines. The sidestory manga and trinity soul are completely non canon. Q1, Q2, and P3+P5 Dancing are technically canon but since they were all just dreams shared by the characters across time and space they didn't happen in the real world and no one remembers them except for the velvet room attendants.
The thumbnail is fire 🔥
Thanks
Would you do an ultimate analysis video on The Investigation Teams epilogue outfits and how the characters new outfits might have stemmed from their growth throughout the story and their social links? I noticed that you did that for Nanako but not everybody else. Good video as always.
My color theory video has stuff regarding to their end game outfits, Maybe that's what you're lookin for
Actually this morning I drank some coffee before opening my stomach and taking it out
Ergo, you did in fact drink coffee in that scenario. That part doesn't change either way.
My opinion to canon is that anything after the original that dosent contradict or make the original worse i consider it canon but my opinions aside this was a great video love your content
That seems fair enough to me. This isn't a hard rule, just me trying to be as fair and consistent as I can. Thanks!
As far as making the original worse, that's quite a subjective line. In my case, it doesn't take much for me to consider a succeeding creator guilty of this particular mistake, to such a degree that if I were to be made the ultimate arbiter of this litmus test, very few works for which this question is relevant would successfully pass it.
Everyone's gay but something didn't want them to
All else aside, I think you put why canon is so important into words perfectly. I like the anime but it clearly does things in a way that distorts the meaning of p4g. And although ill keep watching the anime and play the arena games, persona 4 for me is P4 and P4G
I would say that the P4 Anime is canon because it’s how we got the official name of the protagonist of P4/P4G. I also think that the P4 arena games and the dancing game is canon to the whole story of P3 and P4 because of it being a continuation of the story of both p3 and p4. In my mind as long whoever is doing the story outside of the 3 guys mentioned as long as they stay true to the source material as best they can that’s good enough.
Imagine having better development and story for your characters that you make side content just to show it.
It’s a shame though in terms of what’s canon. A big example is best girl Adachi. Adachi had good character development within the ultimax games and understanding within the anime, but it’s not shown in the main game. It would hinder him in what’s seen in an analysis if it’s focused on just the main game because there’s more to see when we have other content made by those same creators, even if it’s not their full work. Still, I get obviously get that there’s a line on what’s canon. Only the Trudachi timeline counts
well i mean there is A reason why there's contradictions and with the canon and "non canon", its because some of it is either in a dream world or pocket dimension or ultimately its an alternate universe with in the Megami tensei universe. because what i have been told and what i read up on SMT as a whole and not just persona the reason why everything is the way it is, is due to a event in the main SMT game's that created all of these branching worlds and story lines. it makes sense when you remember Persona didnt just start from Persona 1 it came from Shin megami tensie persona IF or persona 0. so THINGS starts to get conflicting and dodgy in some aspects and it does make it unavoidable but thats why i seen a lot of people say that everything in all of SMT is canon. which makes it come off as there's no non canon just a different universe or a better way of calling it continuity.
This also makes sense since honestly it seems to be a constant thing in japan, for example the dragon ball series does not actually have anything to be considered "non canon" only a different continuity, and it is a statement that's been heavily reinforced that this is the case and it seems to go on for other stuff withing gaming and tv shows as well. which does make sense since again using dragon ball as an example 2 character's only existed primarily in the movie continuity broly and goggeta however thanks to dragon ball super broly both of them became apart of the main dragon ball super continuity, broly even get's mentioned in the manga now. But overall this is why the persona series haves this continuity problem, its due to how SMT as a whole is set up to be due to the main smt series, than and well persona is actualy a spin off of SMT anyways, Hope i made some sense with this sorry if its all over the place.
I always tell my landlord that the rental agreement is not canon.
You know, the whole thing on what is or isn't canon in Persona 4 kind of reminds me of the whole Chidori debate for Persona 3 with people arguing over whether she's canonically still around or not.
Hmm... I always count game continuity, so other medias and their creative change aren't canon unless the writer said so. In P4A, the characters didn't have ultimate Persona, so their Social Link never maxed. The only confirmed maxed SL I can think of are Adachi due to more personal relationship with Yu and Marie because obviously, but unconfirmed if she's romanced or friendzoned. There's also character of Yu, and based on his talked characterization in spin-off games, he consistently more talkative and expressive compare to his anime counterpart with more common sense. I don't really see much depth of his character growth like the anime and manga did beside his strong understanding of bond and friendship
How do you feel about the events that contradict each other from the original to golden? I always found it strange for instance that in the original the beach trip is something that gets brought up but is cancelled, sort of adding to the feel that Inaba is out in nomans land where kids can`t do much of anything if they want to do something outside of Inaba. But in golden everyone just gets mopeds and drive to the beach no problem meaing a storybeat from the original dissapear.
What is or isn't cannon is a bit more complex. The criteria you gave while perfectly suitable for the persona series doesn't necessairly work for every franchise.
The main case I'm thinking of is the pokemon anime.
I'm not sure if you watch it or not but to note is that pokemon is a long running series that has outlived the carriers and in some cases even the very lives of it's original staff and even the 2ed staff to some dageee
And while pokemon is designed to keep running forever it is not a static show it has an evolving dynamic story with character development, a sense of progression and arcs that lead into one another.
And despite the difference is production staff pokemon has remained rather consistent in terms of events and timeline, so much so that I would not be surprised if they literally had a list of things not to contradict.
The only oddity with the timeline I can find is that the setting got retcond in 2002, in the 90s the setting for the entire pokemon franchise not just the tv show was future earth but starting in the 2000s the entire franchise which still has they're original staffs retcond the setting to be a planet that is similar to earth but isn't earth.
Even if you count pre reton pokemon as a different cannon that doesn't change the fact that a story that the original staff was working on is still ongoing but with a different staff and I would hesitate to call Pokemon's journey seasons a different cannon to the sinnoh seasons.
But aside from pokemon there are also other franchise where canonicity is complex, one case being the star wars sequels,
The star wars sequels was one story told through a movie series with several writers who had different vision for the series and were pretty much blantonly pulling the movies in different directions creating one train wreck of a story if you try to examine it. I doubt you could even tell what's cannon if you use your criteria.
And that's not taking retcons into account.
I disagree in your concept of cannon, mostly as all those works would be a version of their cannon
And when it comes to what is cannon it comes to the Ip holder in this case Atlus to say what is cannon...and apparently the arena games are sequels to 4
just like strikers is a sequel to 5, regardless of what fans want
I have a real problem with the futility of the Q games personally...everyone forgets thing annoys me deeply
so... tanaka writes the lines... and he made fun of his own last name in persona 5 during sae's palace?
This Entire Video Feels Like The Prelude To A List
It kinda is...in a way. Also a way to buffer myself since the main channel vids take so long
@@HidinginPrivate Its Fine, Feel Free To Take Your Time
I know that in the video you explained why we should really only look at the original p4 and p4g for absolute cononicity but didnt p4g make reference to the events in p4A if only vaguely 🤔
Really depends how you look at it, most consider the fighting games canon after the events of p4g before the epilogue
You know, i hear in other countries canon is not nearly as important as it is in tne west. Apparently its just like "whatever you want is canon!" And i think i like that mindset the best
Yeah, Canon Is mostly a western term. They are a lot more loosey with Canon in the East. Imagine It with Looney Tunes. There are many different interpretation of them. Sonetimes they are in the Woods, sometimes they live in modern society, sometimes they are in space. But they are still the "same" character. Basicly, you have a character and a general out line of what a character Is. Do whatever you want with It. But they seem to have gone with the same western Canon approach for the Persona series
great video cx
Thanks!
Who was that guy walking around in some of your clips? And what is that video?
That's Katsura Hashino, the Director of the Persona series from p3 and onward, and it was taken from an interview with him
Everyone should agree there is no canon romance. Implied or something only found in a spin off manga is not canon
For the sake of the analysis videos I can understand looking at only p4 and p4g as "canon" however I'd like to point out that Akihiko's protein flanderization aside the arena games and dance fit quite well within the larger persona canon.
If I got across why I'm only looking at them for the analysis project then that's all I need! I'm glad it got across
Uh how does it fit well exactly? Akihiko's character was never about Protein in the original Persona 3 (heck it was literally only mentioned once), I don't understand how flanderizing his character in such a way fits in the larger Persona canon.
Seriously what the hell is the ending music it's good
My outro music is maya's theme, the song before that (I think) is 'sane feelings from P4D, but it might be another one of the menu themes from p4d
Reach Out To The Canon
Okay I know the whole "Dojima and Nanako scrapped as a fighter in P4 Arena" is absurdly stupid but it is also absolutely hilarious to imagine.
Also this whole video can be summarised as "This video series is about Persona 4 and Persona 4 Golden and nothing else".
Yeah it would have been hilariously over the top. And yeah basically. Maybe it didn't need an explanation but I had a lot of people mentioning anime and games in my analysis so I wanted to clear the air on why I'm not mentioning them and also explain how in order to mention them I throw the consistency of the analysis out of wack
The shadow Yu thing is from were?because everything I finded was different from what you showed(the Yu looking to a bunch of TVs stacked with images of Yu's shadow animation)
So shadow yu in p4au is explained to not really be a true shadow in the sense we knew it. P4 the animations Yu has a shadow in a side ova episode that operates like a true shadow but the game explains Yu's lack of shadow is partially why he was chosen as the protagonist- because he represented someone willing to face the truth and pursue it at all costs
I think of canon as being similar to mythology. Contradictions aren't a big deal, the general idea of a character (or legend) comes across when told multiple times in multiple ways.
I consider the spinoffs that way personally. For a casual view, I see then as a sort of game of telephone a rough retelling of what happened rather than literal to the letter
To be fair, Persona 4 Dancing is canon. The design of Kanami reappears as a cameo in Persona 5.
That being said, whether the supplementary material was canon or not never mattered because it adds nothing to their characters.
Kanamin as a character is mentioned and described in base persona 4, the face/hair is same in p5- but the outfit/design is original. Choosing to pick a similar design to a character mentioned in p4 who shows up in p4d is pretty loose to call Canon.
That being said, lots of people try to cite supplementary material in order to change significant things about the world, lore, and history- so explaining why I don't talk about it matters somewhat if I want to stop getting all those types of comments
12:58
"Just so I can have a little more flirty scenes with you"
Lol