Are Old Pianos Better? Old Vs. New Pianos
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
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This might sound silly but this is actually a very complex question.
When I was growing up, my father Mortin Estrin was a Baldwin artist. When he was selecting new pianos for performances and recordings, we used to go into the Baldwin artist showroom in New York City and he would play all the pianos and choose the one he liked the best. Back then, whenever he would encounter a restored piano he would scoff at them and couldn't see any value in them. For a large part of my life I grew up with a similar mindset.
But now things are different for me; I sell restored pianos. So what changed? Well, pretty much everything when it comes to pianos. Back when I was growing up we had Baldwin, Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Knabe, Sohmer, Chickering, and dozens more piano brands still producing new pianos in the United States. Today, we only have 3 piano companies left making pianos in the US and the rest are mostly made in huge Asian factories at a fraction of the cost and quality of the handmade pianos of yesterday.
There are still some pianos being made today in America and elsewhere that maintain a very high quality -- but unfortunately they come with a very high price tag. However, the vast majority of new pianos are nowhere up to the standard of the handmade pianos.
At the turn of the 20th century there were over 1800 companies producing pianos in the United States! Sure, we still remember some of the big names, but with hundreds of companies competing for the top spot, there were plenty of phenomenally high quality pianos being produced during that time period. Every company had to compete against each other and while everyone was at the peak of production, the quality was at an extremely high level; it had to be. However, the vast majority of pianos ever produced in the US are very old now.
Right before World War II there were still over 300 piano companies in the United States. They were producing lots of high quality pianos but even this was a long time ago. Many of these instruments have not stood the test of time -- whether they weren't maintained properly, succumbed to the elements of nature, or just wore out.
Some old pianos have huge potential to be great. The craftsmanship and level of work was outstanding. However, a lot of their potential lies in the life that these pianos have had. How well have they been preserved? And how much work has been done to make them play like a new piano?
In a perfect world where money is no object you could buy a brand new Hamburg Steinway or Shigeru Kawaii or other top brand and have a wonderful piano. For most people however, if they are looking for a top tier piano they will most likely consider a vintage instrument that has been meticulously restored.
There is a wide range of tones possible with many of these vintage pianos. Even the old Mason & Hamlins and Steinways have a different quality than the ones being produced today. They have slight differences in the methodology of production. There were also countless, skilled workers from what was a huge industry. Some people think the quality and aging of the woods produces a richer tone like a Stradivarius violin.
From my experience I have seen quite a bit of magic produced out of the great, vintage pianos. There is a difference in quality and tone that is rare on newer pianos. However, the question of whether or not they are better comes down to the individual pianos. You simply can't compare the quality of Asian production pianos and handmade pianos. However, this is not to say that every handmade piano is better. Really the bottom line comes down to personal preference. Some people, particularly in rock and pop actually prefer the more strident tones produced by factory pianos today -- it is a sound many people have become accustomed to. - เพลง
I wonder if people realize what a treasure you are to piano lovers and players. Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
As a carpenter I can attest to the fact that the grain density of wood 100 years ago was far higher than the wood of today. If you could see a cross section of a pre-world war two baseball bat you would be amazed at the difference. Cell structure and grain density in wood today will never match what it was even 50 years ago.This is why those old pianos sound sooo goood!
What has caused that? How has nature changed such that even the grain of wood is no longer what it used to be?
AlternativeDesign100 Some of it is due to the fact that 350 years ago we started tapping into the prehistoric forests natural to North America that no large empire had ever had a chance to use before then.
vulcan1429 Sir the problem isn't wood the variables can make your head spin . Pianos are not violins they are tremendously complex . And the material felt and other soft stuff needed for a piano to sound good doesn't improve with age . So if you're looking for older instruments then you'd better have a technician you trust and like . Another factor is crown of the sound board and if the piano lived somewhere where the humidity constantly fluctuates greatly like the mid West of the US. We still haven't scratched the surface. Another big problem is dead strings. Changing out strings is quite a long expensive process.not mention very frustrating because they stretch and need frequent retuning for over a year as the piano settles and the strings stretch. Listen these new Yamahas are damn good damn good . They are good right out of the box. Just buy a damp chaser and make friends with a great tech. and you're in like flint. I wish I had known then what I learned the hard way.
One factor that affects wood density is slow growth. The old virgin forests were crowded, which led to limited sunlight reaching each tree, which led to slower annual growth and smaller cell structure. Newer forest management techniques space the trees further apart, which allows faster growth but produces wood with larger cell structures, which means it is less dense and cures faster, and thus is more profitable. Hope this sheds some light on your question.
My piano teacher - gone long ago - used to tell me that there was a process of "drying" or "maturing" of the wood: Old pianos were made of wood that was left to dry naturally, while the modern process was speeding the phase of drying in an industrial way of making a piano.
I don't know to what extend that is true or crucial, but I can tell that I once played on a 100+ year old 180 Bluthner aliquot and was really astonished with the sound. I wound not choose a modern Steinway over that old marvel by any means.
I am playing a Steinway from 1892 (restored for sure) on a daily basis and I enjoy it evertime. It‘s is tremendous fun and sounds beautiful. I also like to think about what times and moments my grand piano has already experienced. The sinking of the titanic, WW1, WW2, the moon landing, michael jacksons birth and death, etc....
... not to mention that Debussy was at the height of his career.
wow. i never thought of that. i have a 1906 and a 1917 piano at home. and a few from the 50s as well
I purchased a 1919 Mason & Hamlin, Model "A" (5' 8"), in Boston, totally rebuilt in 1996 by a former piano tech./builder at Mason & Hamlin. It was the BEST investment in a piano I could ever have made. Round, resonant bass notes that remind one of rich dark chocolate. Beautiful "singing" notes in the middle and treble sections without being strident. The original ivory was chipping away in a number of places on the keys, and it was becoming difficult to find ivory--and very costly. But bone was still available at a more reasonable cost, and he refinished all of the keys in bone. No regrets. I've had several tuners tell me this piano produces the sound of a Model "AA" (6' 2"), which puzzles them a bit, but said it's basically the "personality" of that particular piano when it was originally built. I'm sold on Mason & Hamlin pianos, and would never trade it in for a Steinway. I think Mason & Hamlin doesn't always get the credit for the stunning pianos that they build, because it doesn't say "Steinway" on the fall board. My current tuner/tech. once said to me, "If you can find me another half-dozen Mason's like this one to tune, I'd be VERY happy!! :)
TRUE! I played by Senior Recital on an almost new, meticulously maintained M & H BB and consider it the finest grand piano I ever heard. The 'sustain time' had to be experienced to be believed... I wound up changing a lot of my pedaling.
Dan Ahlin
That’s nice, genuinely. But your off-hand comment implying you would have restored the piano with ivory if it had been available is nothing short of disgusting. It’s extremely selfish, self-centered and borderline monstrous to so casually mention the slaughter, mauling and exploitation of a living being, an an endangered one at that, for your own gain and perceived sentimental value. No one with half a heart could give a damn about your sentimental yearnings if real elephants are brutally killed for your pleasure. Kindly reevaluate your life.
@@zain4019 ...He's speaking from the perspective of the person who sold it to him. Read. Correctly.
@@zain4019 Let me guess: You are a social justice warrior. Am I right?
I've played countless modern Yamahas, Kawais etc. But when I played a 1902 Steinweg-Grotrian for a few weeks, I understood why those old Grotrians are thought to be best pianos ever made. Unbelievable instruments.
Old Pianos vs. New Pianos, huh??? I just saved a 1905, 8500 series Hartman & Peck, Grand Upright Piano, headed for the dump, lollololol... The minute, I saw this old piano somewhat beaten up overtime and definitely out of tune, I fell in love with it... Yes, my piano will take more money than I currently have overtime to restore it, but as beaten up as it is, this Piano is still in great condition and sounds magnificent for it's age... So, yes, I will be restoring this piano... Originally, this Grand Upright Piano had been abandoned, left behind, and forgotten...
People all across the United States are dumping their New and Old pianos in landfills???
I could have picked up any number of piano throwaways for free, but this Grand Upright Piano's quality just jumped out at me and so I went and picked it up right away... Just as I thought, the tone from this Piano was total bliss even though it was out of tune with very few keys sticking...
Wow. Thank you. I am glad you said that about old pianos. I am so relieved, that I made the right choice for me... Of course, I have no room for a nine foot grand piano, lololol...
The craftsmanship of this old piano from the strings to the keyboard and including the wood used in this piano is astonishing... Even though this is only a twelve or eight thousand dollar piano when it was first produced...
This is my story and I'm sticking to it...
Excellent video Robert. Thanks for posting.
Have you made (or would you make) a video about what exactly the difference in methodology and resulting tones there are between hand-made pianos from the present and from the past? What constitutes that “certain magic” in old pianos that you mention? It sounds like a fascinating area to explore.
Dear Robert
As always I enjoy your videos. I can tell you that I am in love with the sound of my Steinway O from 1906, it is simply magical. Can't tell you exactly what it is, but I have played a Hamburg Steinway D from 1967 and it sounds great, but when I play this Steinway O from 1906 it has something that you feel the sound going through your soul in a magical way, it is unexplainable. Only God knows what it is, but the "Golde Era" of pianos is truly the early 1900s
Once I sit down to play the Steinway O from 1906, I do not what to stop and I can not say how long the piano sustians notes when I am holding the sustain pedal down, but I am certain it is about 2 minutes or so. Incredible
I think that antique instruments have to be evaluated on an individual basis. My wife's friend has a Steinway D and I think it sounds a bit tinny (maybe bad acoustics in the room. maybe tuned poorly.). Mine is a Braumuller that sounds very good, though it's a name that no one had heard of.
I bet that even that 1967 Steinway will sound like a vintage one in comparison with the modern production.
Maybe that the 1906 O still has it's original old sounding wood. If yes, that would answer this question. At any time in the 1920ies the piano manufacturers suddenly recognized that their supply from the Appalachian heights was exhausted because of the tens millions of automated pianos built in those days before the radio... They turned over to Sitka spruce, the siberian variant, from Alaska and Canada - which sounds other and additionally deteriorates faster. The sounding quality and the durability of Appalachian white spruce is unmatched.
I have a 1904 Krakauer Brothers piano my family bought from the World's Fair, unfortunately it is worse for wear and is in need of a lot of repair. I just don't know if it's worth it to spend the $4000-8000 it will cost to repair an old upright.
The issues with old versus new for me are as follows: an old piano will probably need some restoration work. Is the piano worth restoring? That depends on the economic value of the piano, and that depends on it's make. You can choose to restore a piano that was originally well made but you may find it impossible to sell for the price you paid to restore it later on. But since you're keeping the piano for life then who cares. A new piano needs no restoration work. It will sound bright like a modern Steinway or Yamaha and it will last probalby as long as an old restored piano. You'll pay far less for it than fully restoring an old piano (action, hammers, strings, keys, bodywork etc) but when it comes to the end of it's life then you'll probably not want to restore it. For me, on balance, I would buy a new piano. But if you really love a piano and feel you'd rather put the $10,000 into restoring it instead of buying a new one then who's to stop you. After all, the piano is there to please you and nobody else.
We took over a totally restored Nordheimer grand build in 1912 in Canada when a lady was divorcing. It cost 7K. My daughter finished her RCMT grade 12 playing on it. He loves music. Plays flute and piano. He is a MD working at local university hospital. This piano, most of time does not even meed annual tune up/ check up keeping all notes.
As the restoration costs are about the same, whether it is an exceptional instrument or a mediocre one, the only restored instruments we're seeing today are the very best of their time.
Very well explained.
I have a Smith & Barnes upright from 1895 that is in really rough shape; to restore it would be very difficult & expensive - I could buy a new one for the price - but I dream of some day having the money to afford it. This video makes me feel better about wanting to do this.
I presently have the good fortune to have a 60 year old Yamaha F.C.; not one of the brands that you mention, but I have always liked Yamahas nonethless & it's a far better piano than I ever would have thought to have. (I got it second hand of course; I had the hammers replaced recently.)
ok good keep working and rebuilding your piano good work. :)
Thank you Robert... I always love your comments. I would love an older Mason or Baldwin.
Thanks Robert for this video, shareing exactly your opinion. I am specialised in restoring old Grands, no new Grand can match the sound and warmth of older quality instrument.
i like the light actions on the 100 year old pianos. a real joy to play my 1906 mason and risch upright
Love the old steinways, so mellow and luscious.
Just bought my Aunt's Knabe 6' 6" Parlor Grand from her. It was made in 1898, and I double checked the serial with a Knabe site. I'm not an accomplished piano player, but I have caught on fast in the past year, because I have about 26 years of playing guitar behind me and found it easy to translate everything I know on guitar to piano. I was torn with getting a baby grand like a Kawai, or a used Yamaha, but something told me to ask my Aunt. She has had this relic in her Living room for 40 years, and only played a few years in the middle. I got an antique Knabe hand made Grand Piano for $200, just for keeping it in the family, I got that price. (plus paid to move it) She said it would take thousands to get it back to playing condition with it's sticky keys, being way out of tune, and some keys not even working. I got it home, did some youtubing to figure out the best way to remedy those things, and just two days later, I have a fully functional, in tune grand piano that sounds like a dream. Don't buy a new one. Buy a vintage one, do some research, save thousands, and have a part of history in your home. Eventually I'm getting it fully restored, but for now, the sound is already restored in my book.
Wow, ok, as this is written, it is terrible advice! Absolutely DON'T buy old piano's without a firm knowledge of how a piano works and piano restoration. There are a lot of things to consider, more than can fit in this comment section, so I'll just say that it being in tune right now doesn't mean it is now fixed, because it is worth nothing if it keeps easily getting out of tune, for example. Even if this particular piano turned out great, that easily might not happen and you will be stuck with an expensive piece of wood you'll have to get rid of. It would really be great OP could respond to my comment and tell how the piano is doing 2 years later :)
@@rubensousa9216 hey, he only paid $200 + moving costs. a no brainer
@@rubensousa9216 Yes. After reading this, I AM going to buy a new piano.
@@lordemed1 6 years later, I still do not believe this person flipped an old piano by watching youtube videos. Being in tune momentarily doesn't mean it's fixed. And spending 200 dollars (+shipping, +"fixing") for something potentially worthless and space consuming is definitely a brainer.
Excelente programa de informacion
Nice video, I learned things, thank you.
THANKS for this video
Very interesting video. Thanks!
i have an 1886 Knabe 7'5" concert grand. it sounds just fine especially in the low and mid range where my limited talent keeps me most of the time. yes the best pianos for Carnegie Hall are new but the best piano for me is my Knabe. It went through 140 yeas of history and is all original. it is a joy to play. oh, yea it is Brazilian rosewood with a one-piece solid top, no need to worry about refinishing it. looks beautiful.
Yes I believe in your statement. My recently purchased 3 year old piano is giving way due to possible humidity problem in Goa, India. Wonder if that wood used is plywood just getting off at edges. Side by side I have my grandfathers 150 years piano, just in magnificent condition, except that the it requires frequent tuning
I have a brand new Beale Upright - polished ebony and it's absolutely beautiful for the price we payed. Wonderful sounding instrument.
There's a huge difference between a Feurich made in Langlau and one on the market today actually made by Hailun. Also, concerning the rebuilding of older instruments: I love to see old Knabe's, Bechstein's etc. from the classic era all rebuilt and given new life. i have yet to see an early 1950's Asian brand piano given that kind of treatment, and I suspect I never will.
I have an antique Chickering, which was in wonderful condition when I bought it. Sadly I don't have the money to restore it, but again, it is still in decent condition as is, thankfully!
I have NEVER liked Yamaha! I've taught so many students who have a Yamaha, and I really have always been put off by them. The action is heavy and there's something "magical" in an antique piano that I can never find from a Yamaha!
Hello, Thank you for good video. Have you ever heard about “Lauberger and gloss”? I bought it a few months ago, this piano has great action(Rener), and the sounds is similar like warm Bosendorfer. But on the internet it is almost no information about this company.
Have you ever played a Steinway Model Z upright like John Lennon had or a Steinway Model O Baby Grand as played by John.
In my family we have 3 grand pianos. One in my house is an old Nordheimer built in Canada
in 1912 which my daughter plays on. 2nd one is her cousin's(my niece) restored old Steinway,
last one is for another cousin's Yamaha. All three girls agree they like the oldest Nordheimer
That's very true. At the end of the day, it's a matter of personal taste apart from quality. I prefer Baldwin pianos to be played with jazz piece as the sound is too bright for classical pieces. Baldwin works very well, especially with Ragtime. The articulation and the upbeat are so clear.
Good points!
Very very informative.
Very good. Thank you. It makes a lot of sense.
Would a 1904 Upright Grand made by Mehlin and Sons be worth restoring?
A beautifully maintained and restored early 20th Steinways sound better than the new ones to my ears.
Interesting Topic.
It's not that old pianos get better with time, but many of them were built better than the average mid range modern piano to begin with.
That piano sounds truly awesome.
It just depends on what company made it, if it was hand made or not, if its a upright or grand, the sound quality,etc...My Yamaha baby grand was around $10,000 but when I was at the piano store the cheapest one i saw was an upright it was a little less than $2,000, and the most expensive piano I saw over there was over $100,000. So the price of a brand new piano might range around there. If you where to go online and buy a used one then you could pay as little as $200. hope this helped :)
Times change. And it is hard to compare generations. We aren't in the manufacturing age in the USA anymore. Mason and Hamlin is a relatively small company. Yes, it once was more commonly found, and I think M&H pianos are really nice, but it is a niche brand now.
Manufacturing looks to pay less for labor. Asia has rich and not as rich countries. That's why the richer countries, Japan and South Korea, will make their more budget pianos and electric pianos in Indonesia and China. But China's economy is becoming very advanced and China will be shipping out their products in time to Indonesia and Vietnam and other countries to manufacture. When they set up factories, it is up to the individual company to have quality control that meets a standard and train the workers. So made in a certain location is becoming meaningless in the low to medium end. In the high end, Yamaha or Kawai would not make their handmades in China. They have to be made in Japan to carry the "made in X country" cache. They're built in a limited number anyway.
There is an excellent company in the UK: Roberts Pianos; they do excellent restoration work, and have many videos on TH-cam; quite a lot of these compare two or more pianos, of very different ages.
I have a Cable baby grand that was built in 1930. Sounds astonishing, although some of the notes in the bass are starting to go out.
I have the same....and the bass strings are the first to go it seems. However, my little cable nelson grand is beautiful and I'd rather spend the money on the strings then get a new piano.
So is there a market for old piano restoration?
Loved the Video i love pianos your are interesting
Is 1995 Kohler & Campbell 6'1 Grand piano a bad choice. I got $5000 budget and recently bought it. It looks lovely, beautiful action, great pleasure to play and it provides beautiful ( colorful full sound) like no other piano in this range of price. I would love to hear your or someone opinion.
I have a very old Macey & Kamp - every key still worked until a few years ago, - it's a 'vertical grand' I guess it's actually called a studio grand, but it says that on the action-board ^ . do you think it's worth restoring? it's very ugly, but it has this deep tone all its own, and the "French Repeating Action" haha, twin trumpeting angels? ring a bell? "Bell Frame"
i have an upright piano made by Weser Bros., the one who has rolls of paper that make it play all by itself, and i can compare it to a Yamaha upright, from.. 2015 i believe? and leaving asside the tuning of my weser bros. and the keybed and action and so on, i can tell the fact that my upright has a different sound, a warmer and fuller sound..
my piano is from 18xx something, i can’t find enough info about the Weser Bros. nor about my upright piano. since is an american one, can you please give me some links or info about it? i would appreciate it so much! thank you.
(now i’m looking to this kind of videos so i can see which is better, an old Shigeru Kawai sk2 or try and find the newest i can afford)
I had read that up to the Great Depression, the piano manufacturers competed on who had the best quality. The essay stated that after WWII, they changed manufacturing design to have them targeted to last about 15 years.
if i need to keep my steinway for the rest of my life shuld i buy new or used?
Old or new I want a piano period. I just can’t afford to get one right now and don’t have room for it in my little bedroom apartment. But I am grateful that I have my cheap m-audio 88key stage electric piano to practice with daily until times change for me to the better.
Anyone know a lot about pianos?! I have a Wm. Knabe & Co upright piano and I have no idea what it's worth. The serial number (127094) says it's a 1942 or something. But I can't find anything online that can value it.
Always interesting.
Chictomana. They vary A LOT. From $6000 to $200,000. Grands in my local store are $25,000 and up
Franz Mohr gave a talk on Steinway pianos many years back in Toronto. His opinion was that pianos peak at 10 years of age.
I played a 100 year old Heintzman that was one of the nicest pianos I've ever played. Very responsive, with a wide range of vocal ability. I love the big uprights. No small piano can touch them for tone.
i hace a 1917 gerhard h. and a 1906 mason and risch. they made killer pianos in canada 100 years ago
WHAT DO THINK OF RONISH PIANOS
Can an old piano be made to sound like new? I have an old piano but would very much like a clear crisp sound
Have the opportunity for a free 1922 Haddorff Clarendon to a good home if I pay for moving. What do you think?
I just got a Knake Old grand i think its about 100 years Old. It playes good, has to be tuned.of course there wil be Some things to be done, but yeah what can i expect from 100 years Old piano, has make two worldwars.
Hope its oke, its in my barn, completely pact in plastic seal and blankets
I would say, that old piano with full restoration is the best. Why? Because in good old days, there was available trees with huge size giving wider planks of heartwood to make soundboards. In old Steinways there can be soundboard made from 3-4 planks when new ones are done from 5-7 planks. Why restorated? To get best of the best from hammers and mechanism overall.
I was told that pianos made before amplification were louder than contemporary pianos, would you agree?
What are the 2 chords played at the beginning of the video?
It's basically a V-I in C. I think it's like an arpeggiated G7sus4 (9) that lands on a C with a appoggiatura-like D that resolves to E. ))
Good points. Bach did not have a Steinway to play. If I were a violin player only,
I guess I would want a Stradivarius. But, I like many instruments, depending on the music I am playing, thus, a light weight portable keyboard with 700 instruments and 200 rhythms suits me fine. True, these machines do not have the refinement of a single, organic instrument. But, for fun playing with your friends, it does a good job. I like family and friends getting together and making music. Bring a guitar, keyboard, voice, or put some popcorn kernels in a pop can with some tape over it and use it as a shaker. People of all proficiency levels should be able to get together and make music together.
In reply to busrel, I wouldn't say that new pianos have better wood curing technology. Most top manufactures still dry their wood the traditional method (putting wood out in their backyard for 5+ years). The glue may be better and there may be better precision. However, most brands Estrin are talking about are some of the Asian brands that produce lots of pianos at a low cost. They usually use cheaper parts and cut corners to keep the price down. These end up falling apart quickly. There are many pianists that would like a high end modern piano, but how many can shelve out $50++K for a piano?
Actually it's the wood in the old pianos that's better, even though modern production methods are sometimes superior. All of those old growth trees are no longer around, having been cut down years ago.
***** That's an ongoing study. There are professors that are trying different methods to recreate the old wood (through different chemicals and biological means such as fungi), but none of them have been proven to be successful. It would especially help the famous Stradivarius instruments since those are near their end-of-life and the wood he used is already gone in todays world. Good tone wood needs narrowly-spaced rings, meaning trees that grow slow.
But there are very HIGH quality pianos coming out of Asia too. I think we shouldn't give Asia a bad rap, and specifically it's China and Indonesia making the cheaper one. But they are getting better, and the quality is improving in China. And there are Chinese companies like Hailun that make a high-quality piano. As far as Japan goes, Kawai and Yamaha make mostly high-quality pianos, whether mass-produced (which doesn't necessarily mean poor quality) or hand-made.
My great grandmother used to have an 1890's era upright Steinway and i just loved hearing that 'old piano sound' that you can't remake today.
Any thoughts on a 1927 Broadwood and sons baby Grand? Looking to restore it. Was told it won't hold a tune.
You can easily spend a great deal to restore a piano that doesn't hold its tuning. Here is more information about that: livingpianos.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-restore-a-piano/ If there is great sentimental attachment to the piano, or there is something special about this piano, it could be worth it. Otherwise, you may consider other pianos that don't require rebuilding.
I have an 1899 Hazelton brothers parlor grand piano with the Nickle Wessell Gross action. If someone offered me a brand new Steinway or my Hazelton 1899 I’d take my old piano for sure. You can’t just walk in the store avd find one anymore. Mine has so much more value and history to me.
it depends if you get one that is made out of solid materials and is tuned and made by a decent builder then age shouldnt be a factor but if the piano was rushed out of a factory then it will probabaly be bad
depends on the piano you buy
all the biggest venues i.e. Carnegie Hall, prince Albert Hall, or any of the greatest competitions i.e. Chopin international piano competition, all use brand-new(relatively speaking) pianos fully concert prepped. Not old restored/rebuilt pianos (not that they're bad) It all comes down to how deep your pockets are.
Right....but you are specifically talking about Fazioli's, built the same as the old/vintage piano's, or High end Baldwins/Steinways...same diff. The quality in workmanship and the quality of the wood IN GENERAL on older instruments is far superior to intry level/intermediate/ or even standard production high end instruments.
The wood and workmanship in my new Charles Walters is Outstanding.
Of course its better to have a brand new piano for a high level competition. An older piano will probably require much more tuning and mainteance, and rebuilting them costs pretty much the same of buying a new one. I do think you can find treasures in an old piano, for instance the XIX's Pleyel concert grand that Valentina Lisitsa played on Salle Gaveau in Paris. You cant find that tone on nowadays Steinways, Bösendorfers and stuff. Its different, doesnt necesarily better. And on a modern piano you will find a much better key action in terms of durability, as well as the whole mechanism.
If anything consistency has improved with technology. Plus who is to say some brands aren’t using the highest quality wood with very tight grain? Case in point is Fazoli right out of the box and many new Steinways. Old pianos suffer from a common problem of dead soundboards.
Best answer ever.
Old pre-1914 pianos that get rebuilt: Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Knabe, Mason & Hamlin. Let me know the first time you get a request to do a full rebuild on a pre-1965 Asin piano.
Play please man !
I've heard that some techniques on old pianos
Interesting that you bring up the Hamburg vs NY Steinway first as the money no object new piano choice.
depends on the type of piano the car comes with
I want a steynway spirio...brand new and top tier
And $200.000 for it of course
I have a very old upright piano that my grandma gave me Schumann serial number 12515 and I wonder how old it is? I have been doing some research I can’t seem to find anything.
The piano was manufactured in Chicago in 1905.
LivingPianosVideos wow thank you for this information. Your videos are very informative.
We have a 6ft Baldwin Grand at the church I go to. It has been in the building since it was built in 1969, i assume the piano was purchased new. The piano is a very tough one to play. Stiff action, yellowing and breaking ivory, and a sound that has become less than stellar. It has become increasingly difficult to play with precision also as the action is no longer crisp and responsive but stiff and dull. It is tuned on a yearly basis. What needs to be done to this piano?
given that it's a half century old, it most likely needs some restoration/refurbishing beyond what is done during a simple tuning. there are a lot of parts involved in the action alone which decay over time and have to be replaced. you'd just have to have a qualified technician check it out and recommend what restoration work needs to be done.
Thomas Bush a crappy touch and dilapidated keys means you need regulation, about $250 and the keys need to be re-topped prices vary for that
If the church ever parts with it, please send it to a restorer and have them assess it. Or at least have them come in and see if they'd want to assess it. It may be a gem that needs some restoration work. It's actually not that old an instrument.
For my two penny worth. The piano is a bit of an expensive relic. Years ago there were lots of upright pianos that the likes of Elton John used to practice on and they were so common that they had piano smashing contests. (I'm talking of the plebian musician level. With the advent of electric piano with the game changing transpose feature and portability. It has pretty much related the upright to the realms of antiquity like the penny farthing cycle. Sure who wouldn't want one in his garage to ride out occasionally on a summer day but that's it.
If you have a bottomless back account where your disposable income allows you to buy a top end grand that doubles up as a social statement (usually the later first).
Then that's fine. But novices need to be aware that analog pianos have severe limitations that will stymie your progress when there are better more practical routes to virtuosic playing. A friend of mine wanted a nice antique upright to look nice and to play fabulous. There is no such thing!! An antique upright will be like a Ferrari with a wrecked engine. (A museum piece) the workings will have decayed. The leather return bands and springs will need replacing (all 88) the strings will be rusty and suffer linear stress fatigue.
The affordable solution of you want the best of both worlds is to buy an old antique piano either grand or upright and get some one who is good at woodwork. To strip the harp and all the workings out. Placing them neatly in the nearest dumpster.
Buy a good quality electric stage piano and install the thing into the old frame. You can then turn the empty space inside the piano into concealed drinks cabinet. In doing so you also make the piano lighter for changing location. Voilla!! You have an "antique"piano that sounds amazing. If you want to go the whole hog you could design the keyboard so it lifts out if you want to take it to a gig and when you come back pop it back into it's slot. And you don't have to store the damn thing. I can just hear the purists frothing at the mouth and gnashing their teeth. But the old saying is you can't stop progress.
Old is gold ❤
No it's not. You've never seen my mother in law
@@j.j.1064 lool
What is the best way to mic a piano up?
This is a very complex subject involving the instrument, the acoustics of the room, the style of music, as well as the type of sound you are going for. Generally, for classical type of recording, using a coincident pair of cardioid (directional) microphones (next to each other in an X-Y pattern) around 6-10 feet away from the open lid facing the piano works nicely if the piano is well voiced and the room has good acoustics and there isn't much in the way of ambient noise (such as ventilation or traffic). For a more intimate, compressed sound, having microphones carefully placed inside the piano 3 times as far apart from each other as they are from the strings of the piano can yield good results. However, it is a painstaking process to get good balance of a piano using close microphones.
@@LivingPianosVideos thank you so much for your reply! I was thinking an outdoor event
So they are better. A Ragtime song played on a piano of 140 yrs old sounds so Saloon familiar. You don't get that on a brand new piano. Even if the old piano is not tuned well. For the price of a new one you have much more piano for that money if you buy an old one. I would like to take an expert in old piano's with me and buy an old one with work on it. When the job is done the sound must be so great to hear!
i play an 1890's beckstien daily
Lucky I play on a 2015 Yamaha P-105 digital piano😑
WARGASM180X Bechstein*
I have a sauter adamo upright piano 114
Michel Chen as you see nobody cares
vinicius jack baldner l know. will replace the sauter by a steinway and no body cares either.
But on another note did anyone notice that the video was 420 seconds long?
ScribTOON 4 minutes and 20 seconds not 420 seconds xD
I got a piano Frome the 1700 hudreds
Seeing as you asked the question.
Before hearing you play, I guess old pianos are "better" if you have one for sale !
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Otherwise, go to Harrods.
o0o
Dear *****, Yes, you are quite right, Harrods used to sell pianos and other instruments, even electric keyboards. I guess it is one of the sort of thing that Showrooming (see Wikipedia), has caused the end of.
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I used to go there more frequently, linen for example, there, is exactly the same, as on-line, at the Yves Delorme shop.
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I hope the lovely Pet department doesn't close; did you know William, that folk from Arabian countries, don't regard dogs as pets, in fact it is forbidden to take your dog for a walk in some Arabian countries.
The animal may not be seen in public.
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The new owners of the store have put several Arabian themed features or merchandise in the store, they being from Qatar.
A beautiful place, it is an a delight living so close, the property is partially Grade 2 listed.
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o0o
I have a 35-year old medium grand Steinway I bought in auction for $3700 last year and paid another $500 for tuning and voicing. My tuner told me that "SHE" has a few quirks & she worked to get it responding tremendously. The first problem were keys that were stuck, my tuner took the board out and out came a video game that some little munchkin has inserted in there along w/ a little spoon that comes with play tea set. My piano and I have been inseparable!
Had a mason, not great. Ever play a old Heitzman grand?
yes, extremely great pianos. they are the steinway of the north, thats what we coin them in canada
My old piano keeps in tune better than new ones! better sound by far than many new ones. True for pianos as many other things, by the way!
There are one or two dealers in the UK today selling new pianos that they themselves have damaged by "attacking" the hammers with toning needles. I suspect they have been watching videos on TH-cam where the demonstrater is "attacking" the noses of the hammers; something that should never be done. In cases like this the older pianos are better as these self appointed experts were not selling/destroying instruments untill 20 or 30 years ago. Mind you we could fit a replacement set of heads for you but do not ask the dealer who sold you the instrument. Recently there was a 40 year old black Steinway on their website but the text relating to the graphic refered to the "fiddle back mahogany cabinet!" 10 or 12 times.
What about Baldwin Pianos ? They are just as good as a Steinway.
short answer: it depends on your own taste. No explanation is given to the difference technically of the tone though
We have a couple of 80-100+ year old pianos in music school. Most of them have weird feeling actions, keys that wiggle sideways a lot and they all have a rattle in the bass register. They sound pretty good but they play like garbage.
Can you name all eighteen hundred companies?
When you say there _were_ 1800 or _are_ 300 companies, are they all making their own version of a piano, or are there X number of companies building Steinway and X number building Baldwin, etc?
I cannot fathom having three hundred, let alone nearly two thousand companies to choose from. It boggles *my* mind - I don't know about anyone else.
I'll take this one:
There were actually over 1500 different piano companies in the US in and around 1900. If there was a nearby foundry to make the plate and competent woodworkers and cabinet men then you had the ingredients. There was also a HUGE "piano boom" around 1910. A piano was considered to be a necessary addition to any quality home. Banks would also go long term on a piano which made them affordable to most people through installment payments. Yes, these were different piano companies, not separate locations of several large companies. The Pierce Piano Atlas can be found at may used book stores. It is a listing of piano companies and a record of their serial numbers. If you are really interested in this subject then that is a fascinating resource.
BTW, I am a piano technician/piano teacher/pianist and LOVE these videos. I find Mr. Estrin's information fascinating and accurate.
This baldwin you played, he shouts.
I think your pronounciation of kawaii as ka-why is wrong. It is pronounced ka-why-ee like the pronounciation of Hawaii. In Japanese it means cute. I know from first hand experience when I was stationed in Okinawa and said it wrong to a girl and called her scary.
He pronounced Kawai correctly. The piano brand only has one 'i'. Not to be confused with 'kawaii' which as you have stated means cute in japanese. Kawai (with one 'i') means scary.
scary is pronouced kowei and cute is indeed ka-why-ee haha :) I love japanese
I'm not sure about old vs. new. The thing is, I don't romanticize the past and while it was fine that America had all those piano companies and products, I doubt all of them were high-quality pianos. Probably some of the best of the bunch have survived now, Steinway (which isn't totally American), Charles Walter and Mason and Hamlin. Too bad about Baldwin, but Gibson decided to produce Baldwins in China. And I'm sure some wonderful American pianos didn't survive, and that's a shame.
But I think pianos are evolving in terms of sound and there are qualities I like about the new ones. I like the new generation of computer-aided designed pianos. I'm talking about new piano designs introduced in 2000 or more recently from Shigeru Kawai, the new Bosendorfer 280 and 214 VC, Yamahas CFX, CF4/6 and SX pianos, Petrof's Master series for examples. All of these new premium pianos are made by hand the old-fashioned way, but their designs were computer aided to analyze which property of which material and how they are used together could be simulated to make prototypes.
The older and new pianos sound different, so I enjoy both. What's new will be old one day to some future generation or people who are young now, and they may talk of the instruments being built now as classics.
OK OK I've been curious about this question: on my guitar, we change the strings, at least every six months. Right away, the guitar sounds BETTER: brighter; clearer; more articulate; better resonance; and so forth. There is no question, even the tuning
and pitch seems better.So why buy a piano with 50 or 100 year old strings? I have been told by tuners that it makes no difference. Why? Its a string instrument with...well...strings?
Technically the piano is a percussion instrument- with strings, but as a guitar player, the reason the strings go shitty is because of the acid and corrosion from using our fingers to play it with. If you were to take off your 3 month old strings and soak them in a strong solvent, then put them back on the guitar, it would sound almost like new strings because you've removed the deadening materials that your hands have put on them.
You don't mention broad woods pianos
The british ones? Honestly wouldn't compare them to german/japanese pianos.
Err, do you know anything about the History of Broadwood????
This discussion is about old pianos, current Broadwoods simply have the name and do not represent what Broadwood once was. In their heyday, they were excellent. We had a 7' Broadwood when I was a kid, it was already 100 years old and on original strings held modern concert pitch. It was beautiful to play with a light, fast action and gorgeous sound.
No. I don't know the history of Broadwood. I just tune and repair pianos. May be 7-8 hundreds a year.
Wait, so old pianos are better? I just bought a 50 years old Yamaha u3
I have a 1970 Yamaha G3 . It sounds great!
Old Yamahas are definitely better too, except for the amazing CFX. Your U3 probably sounds warmer than a new U3, and warmer, mellow tones are way better for classical music.