Soviet K1810VM88 VS Intel 8088 Benchmark on high integrated Philips Mainboard.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 เม.ย. 2021
- In this video we will check if the Soviet 8088 clone also called K1810VM88 is just a copy or something seperately designed. I would expect to measure a slight difference in performance. After that video, you will know it. We will use Checkit, Norton Sysinfo and fractint to find exatly that out. The motherboard is out of a Philips P3120 XT Computer and the best integrated XT board I have seen so far. You will also see and hear a rare 8-Bit IDE HDD made by Seagate, ST-325X.
Guest Star in my video is my wife Alisa, she is Russian and has to defend of course the solid soviet technology from the past.
Thanks for watching!
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Music in this video from the youtube audio library - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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I absolutely loved this video! I was actually hoping for some differences a-la V20 but I guess just a clone. Super neat!
Without any further ado, Adrian is here, too! And it amazes me every time 😋.
@@BreakingBrick Look at that!
@@OzRetrocomp Oooh, there's Rammy, look how happy he is!
Dang speaking of cloning.
Makes sense as there is no pipelining in this era of computing, and each instruction probably took the same number of clock cycles.
This microprocessor is the result of reverse engineering of the Intel 8088. It was created by the team of Alfred Vitoldovich Kobylinsky in Kiev. You definitely need to find the K1810VM86M version. It was a fork from Intel, capable of executing some of the 80286 instructions.
I can confirm that. I have visited the Kiev Kristall enterprise, where all this was happening, and spoke with a number of engineers from Kobylinsky's team and his wife Katya IIRC. The chip could not be made an exact copy of Intel's design because of the differences between the US and the USSR semiconductor fab technologies. Ukrainian engineers have been able to recover and reverse engineer _most_ of the chip logic by taking pictures of the layers, but not everything, so the missing parts had had to be designed from scratch.
ig kgb stole it, idk ???
I never seen in my life young women tallking about old technology so fluently, more videos with this lady please !
Best video I've seen today
Cause she is soviet equivalent of Kara from the game : Detroid become human
Simp
@@megapro1725 I lol'd
You might rather see young women talking about her old boyfriends instead.
It’s nice to see a couple like you sharing this passion for hardware.
I've heard stories of East-German engineers with microscopes, tracing tools and a LOT of patience.
East german, bulgarian and russian institutes do chip copying layer by layer for ussr and warshavian block chip production. But also i know original chips, compatible by software but not direct “layout” copied. Interesting story. But main problem in USSR was not hardware, but software - low quality, small selection, approx 5 or more years behind unfortunately. Construction of USSR computers was also compromised becouse of difficult to obtain parts and rather rubbish production and design. But some of them was interesting, and even dont have analogs like bk0010 and 11 or UKNC (ms 511) they was very concurent to modern western computers. But only couple of them. Most lines was terrible 🤷♂️😎
@HoboWild That's also my suspicion.
@@amedvedev I think that the Electronika BK0010, part of a line of computers, were based on Digital Equipment Corporation's PDP-11. It is ironic because DEC really did have some superior technology, perhaps most notably in networking, but they made serious business blunders, and became bankrupt and shut down. It's too bad. As it was, DEC made some very unsuccessful desktops, because they didn't understand the market.
@HoboWild Looking of sheer quantity of original 8088 producers, i think obtaining drawings wasn't act of extremely hard espionage, especially knowing that 8088 was still relevant but anywhere near cutting age technology at 80's
@@amedvedev If i remember correctly, this technology of copying was also loved by mid-size taiwanese manufacturers at the time. Also, USSR industry managers had really strange obcession with similarly keep all standardized and to try to be as close to relevancy as possible. I really can't understand how that ES computers line could be rationally kept with this requiriments. And producing that many chips in small quantity of fabs (and undersupported ones) also doesn't make things lighter
So cool! The Soviets did produce some extremely high resolution lenses back in the 80's that were used for microchip design, like the ERA line, so wouldn't surprise me if they reverse engineered it 'from scratch'.
they reverse engineered it CPU in Kyiv on the "Kvazar" factory.
why ussr don't make copy of i286 and i386 cpu ? bcz it is too complex and expensive to reproduce it for ussr factory , but cant revese as first.
@@EKrava There was Soviet and East Germany 286 clone. But it wasn’t in mass production. And 386, it is late 80s, Soviet Union was dying at that time.
@@user-oj4gm3si5q nice joke.
It's 8088 Intel copy,
Soviet Union died in 1991
@@EKrava dying ≠ died
@@user-oj4gm3si5qcan you show us this soviet 286?
Another great video, your really pushing them out at the moment. The bloopers at the end were brilliant too 🤣
I agree the bloopers were fun
Seeing Norton SI and CheckIT again for the first time after >30 years: priceless!!
Oh, Mrs. CPU Galaxy, nice to meet you :)
То чувство, когда говорят на русском на зарубежном канале. Эх 😆
то чувство, когда запарили писать под каждым видео "то чувство" = деградация
Лично меня забавляет, что я английскую речь понимаю, а они мою - нет. Такое странное...преимущество.
@@xmax2011 Как минимум, у казахов преимущество над тобой. XD
@@Make_it_easy001 Ладно бы казахи! Так ещё вся татарская родня жены!
То чувство, когда "то чувство" употребляют неправильно.
Алиса либо забыла великий могучий, либо хорошо его знает.
Когда ты с рождения живёшь в стране, где говорят на другом языке, говорить по-русски like a native speaker это уже непросто.
тот редкий случай когда смотрю и слушаю канал не отматывая назад что бы вникнуть в сказанное.
Почти что жиза(*-*)
How was her russian?
@@yoppindia It was flawless. Coming from another CPU collector with a Russian wife. And I'm dead serious.
@@yoppindia ideally, her Russian language is no different from what I hear every day.
@@yoppindia Pretty good, but I grade Russians not on how well they speak Russian, but on how well I can understand them. This prekrasnaya rossiyanka I could understand pretty well. The translation left out a lot, btw.
Это... было неожиданно услышать русскую речь на этом канале.
Офигенно!
That was unexpected to hear russian speech on this channel!
Great!
That hard disk sound spinning up.. I heard it, and it was so familiar, gave me shivers and instant flashback to the 80's.
The Soviets reverse engineered the 8088, just like East Germans, Czechs and Hungarians did to the Z80 and 8080. And by today, those reverse engineered copies are real gems of chip collections.
Poland too.
They new that Western people would make mistakes, so they decided to correct them. As usual...
they just xrayed them
@Paol Vrobel My guess is different. Each mentioned country had enough talented engineers to perform such a task, and each country had - at that time - manufacturing capacity to utilize the results of reverse engineering. However, if you have some documents or proofs that can prove your right, I am keen to know. :)
@Paol Vrobel Aaaaahhhh...is this a document or proof? :)
You both look like a lovely couple! It's hard to wrap my mind around the combination of English, German, and Russian that you both deal with. Great video, and involve her more :)
Thank you. :). But Alisa speaks fluently German as well. 😉
@@CPUGalaxy Gosh! I thaught she's your daughter...
I said that because I reviewed the video and you indeed said "my lovely wife" I did not notice in the first place. My wife is 14 years younger too! ... greetings from Romania!
I'm from Lithuania and I distictly remember a professor in chip design class at uni reminiscing about how they would do analysis and direct copying of chips during the soviet times, that with all the other rumors out there suggest to me that these are indeed 1 to 1 exact clones.
My late grandfather told me stories about how him and his friends were tasked with studying and reverse engineering all kinds of chips and other electronics, so i figured the same. I think i even have a handful of these exact chips somewhere in his stuff.
It would be interesting to try out some overclocking and see if the limit is different. Because we are dealing with two chips from different foundries I'd expect some differences, maybe even in the electrical characteristics.
XT and AT incompatibilities are always interesting. Like, a model F keyboard uses the XT interface, not the AT interface (even though the connectors are the same).
yeah, I forgot to mention that in the video that a compatible keyboard is needed as well. Interesting is that I have a keyboard which works on all Pcs.
@@CPUGalaxy model M works on bouth automaticly :)
@@intel386DX Ah, unfortunately I've never been able to get my Model M to work on my XT clone.
I’ve never heard of a keyboard that auto-detected. I used to have one with a switch in the bottom. Shame it’s long gone. But there are PC/XT as well as AT versions of the model F, with different layouts and they speak different protocols. Easy way to tell at a glance, the PC model has no lock lights.
@@AiOinc1 Very strange may be it is the later revision without detachable cable. Mine is this with detachable one and it works on XTs and ATs and modern PCs as well, it is my daily driver :) and it detects the system automaticly just plug it and power on the PC :)
Good old 80's times when I used to assembly and disassembly such beauties with my eyes shut. Thanks for bringing back good memories!
love outtakes at the end. great video, like always!
"Наш советский сою.." - sorry, I couldn't resist sending you to Red Alert)) Thank you for the video)
над Землёй везде будут петь: "столица, водка, советский медведь!"
;D
Peteeeeer, you will build an empire with this channel. Loved the idea of the russian competitor displayed by the russian wife, and the game sound detail
Thank you Fabio! ☺️
Your Wife is Absolutely wonderful at explaining Technology in such a wonderful and soothing way.
Your wife is the most valuable treasure in your collection :)
Einfach ein ABSOLUT sympathischer Kanal über diese herrliche Technik unserer Kindheit/Jugend. :)
Danke für all die tollen Videos, Einblicke, Vergleiche- und die Art, wie das alles präsentiert wird!
Ich (40) bin auch gerade dabei, den Keller des Elternhauses umzukrempeln, um dort all die alten Schätze, die zum Glück überdauert haben, wieder flott zu machen. Ein Kanal wie dieser hier gibt einem das Gefühl, kein Einzeltäter zu sein- sondern einer von mittlerweile vielen Burschen/Mädels, welche sich in der beginnenden Midlife-Crisis damit beschäftigen. :D
Mach weiter so! Meiner Ansicht nach einer der besten Kanäle zu diesem Thema- ganz klar!
Viele Grüsse aus Bayern,
Matthias ;)
Thank you! ☺️
Can't believe I've only just discovered your channel, brilliant stuff and what a collection.🙂
What a lovely person Alisa. Congrats to both of you
aw shes so pretty... you guys make a great couple. She might be even more beautiful than your CPU collection.
😄 Good point mate
huba huba... who says nerds don't get the girl?
Just gonna call out the misogyny of treating a woman who is a competent engineer as if she's just her husband's prize.
@@BlueBenGo grow up and get a girlfriend. Perhaps then you will understand.
@@adamuk5037 I'm married and probably older than you. But your taunt is irrelevant. Treat women with respect for who they are, not like pretty objects for men to collect.
Fantastic video! Was interesting that it performed identically, but I guess no surprise - if you want 100% compatibility, going for cycle exact timing is what you want, and it's then going to be 100% compatible and also give the exact same performance. If you start reducing the cycle count on certain instructions, compatibility goes down.
You keep delivering on the content. It is amazing the old hardware that you obtain and show off here.
Love the bloopers at the end! Keep going!!!!!!
Great video and excellent channel, I really like it. Seems we have many things in common since my wife is Russian too and I'm a retro collector as well 😉
I used some of the Soviet computers back in the USSR days, I guess I also need to make some video about this.
Keep up the great job!
This is great, I was really expecting more of a difference. Love the white ceramic chips, reminds me of the early 4004s
You lucky guy ..she's definitely a keeper )). Great video. Spasibo comrade
Привет из России)давно смотрю канал,приятно удивлён)Алиса появляйся на канале ещё!
I love your collections, Never seen an XT with so much integration before
I love the chemistry between you. You are a great couple.
Coupled like an 8088 and 8087 ;)
😅👍🏻
So one of you is better at floating point maths?
yes. of course my wife. 😉.
@@CPUGalaxy
This one dude on facebook was telling me how this russian CPU could run x86 style code in a parallel sort of way, but the memory speed and memory controller was basically trash comparatively. Coreteks also made a video, I cant recall which, where an A.I. basically rearranges the OS kernal in pretty much real time which allowed otherwise single thread apps to use more hardware threads without context switching nonsense.
I mean the old stuff is cool, but some relics belong permanently in a museum rather than walking around serving us fresh orange juice with smiles on their face. We should be careful to preserve what really benefits future generations, and there is no more ethical way to do it, I think than CRISPR and the newly emerging branches from that tree.
Hell, beam me up scotty. Ill gladly experiment with known mutations at known good junctions.
Dude your wife is a total 10. Congrats. Gorgeous and smart, you win in life.
That motherboard in the background is one of the cleanest-looking motherboards I've ever seen. The layout looks so clean and organized.
Very interesting to see a soviet chip reviewed. Great video as usual Peter and Alisa!
Interesting, especial the out-takes
You've got me somewhat interested in seeing if I can dig up some XT class IDE from my 'ancient junk'
I knew there was some very early IDE incompatibilities, I didn't realise it was 8 vs 16 bit.
Glad I found your channel guys!
Love the channel, greetings from Belgium
Thank you! Greetings back from Austria 🇦🇹
Interesting chip! And more importantly, a lovely cameo from Mrs. CPU Galaxy! Hopefully you have more Russian chips in the future for her to present!
Elbrus, eh!
Very interesting, thanks for showing this crazy russin chip! It actually runs more games than I thought! Haha too bad the russin chip didn't run Tetris, that would be cool! Thanks for the video, interesting content as always!
You guys are awesome, take good care of your wife :)
And please do more soviet era computing things!
That Phillips mainboard says "Made in Canada" .... definitely very unique. Great video and loved that you included the outtakes at the end.
So pretty much an exact clone, but white ceramic packages are always nice. I'd be curious to know if it worked in a 5150 with something like 8088 MPH or one of the other IBM PC demos that relies on 'real' Intel 8088s and IBM CGAs (i.e. does it clone all of the corner cases and potentially undefined behavior too?)
There's something oddly disconcerting seeing hardware that was the bleeding edge of technical progress when I was a child now being relics in rare CPU collections.
Same here 🤣
they are not that rare, there were literally millions of those CPUs manufactures for over 15 years used many different applications. The reason they are harder to find today is most have been recycled but there are still plenty out there if you know where to look. Also the patent on those older CPUs are long past and are very easy to manufacture today due to the simplistic process used to create them compared to modern CPUs.
@@aegisofhonor I''m not referring to this specific CPU, I'm referring to his entire channel in a general sense.
@@aegisofhonor I think my toaster uses one to count down thirty seconds after I hit the lever. Uses all 640k.
Another great video, thank you 😀
Super cool to see such a cute couple presenting! Thanks for the video!
These clone CPUs and CPUs named Gauja and Riga were designed and made in Riga, obviously, the earlier models shown in this video were really close copies and I'd had to find one of the original engineers to tell you more about them, sadly that's a harder task than you might think as it's not a piece of public information about who worked on them here in Latvia.
damn. did not expect that they were made in my homeland. at the time there was a lot of electronics produced here, but cpus?
@@f0gpie yeah, well most of high tech at the time was made in baltics, a lot of it under VEF
Очень неожиданно! Приятно услышать русскую речь! Очень красивая и симпатичная жена-инженер! Желаю процветания и развития каналу!
Смотришь канал так уже месяцами и вдруг: "Чего чего? Куда я попал?" Ему идею подкинуть, чтобы жена для Русских делала перевод клипов. Ему бы зрителей подвалило. Он тут процессорами завлекает, а настоящее сокровище прячет. Нужно к процессу подключать, коли канал так здорово растет.
Прям офигел когда услышал)
@@Ozfrank Мозг даже не может переключиться. Привычно, когда на Русском канале вдруг что-то иностранное звучит. А тут противоположное. Появляется вопрос о том, сколько еще Русских жен прячется за кадрами других каналов? Другой ретро канал "Retro Recipes" - тоже комманда мужа и жены из разных стран. Жена время от времени в кадре появляется. Надеюсь новый формат будет продолжаться. К нему вся Россия присоединится.
@@enilenis время от времени - это у 8-bit guy :) Семейство фрактиков вообще канал втроем ведет:)
@@enilenis Это верно! Канал бы процветал еще быстрее с ее помощи. Так и делает Retro Recipes (они еще собаку туда же притянули, все вперёд!)...
Most interesting, very entertaining, thank you very much!
Spasibo, tovarisch! I own a newly made copy of the Soviet home-pc Poisk-2. It is powered by the Soviet clone of 8086 at 8 MHz and could hold up to 2 Mb of RAM. Then in 1991 it was a brilliant PC for home use, now it is good for running all xt's and many of the 286's games.
loved the video :) ... 2 things: You look a bit like Danzel (singer) and you and your wife made me feel as if I'm watching european version of Retro Recipes :D
haha. thats funny. Coz my wife asked what she should wear for the video and I checked with her Retro Recipies 😂😂. Thanks for the positive feedback.
@@CPUGalaxy haha, well, good job then :D it really reminded me of retro recipes. :)
You don't need to hunt for any more treasures. You already have the biggest one. 💎
Very interesting, never saw that chip before. Cool! :)
If possible, I'd love to see and hear more of the eastern clones, it's a fascinating topic I know almost nothing about.
Nice to meet your wife as well! I'd welcome her back any time. :)
I was very surprised, somebody still have that vintage devices. I had something similar about 30 years ago. Thanks for your video.
Great video as always! Sovjetsky technologisky from the 80's is winning the beauty constest. Great takeouts at the end!
hey, I'm Russian subscriber, just passing by...
That's a weird way of saying "hi, I'm a spy"
@@bevis71 are u KGB?
посмотрев на жену сразу понял что наша
@@valdisblack1541 о! Привет, спонсор комментариев для Изи. Я тебя узнал
@@ranid0072 меня раскрыли...
Great video! Always love to watch your content!
Btw, off-topic, but I'd just like to ask if you're satisfied with Creative speakers, which model are they, T30 if I'm correct? I'm choosing between T40 series 1 vs series 2, but don't know how are they currently performing, haven't used creative speakers for about 15 years, and I'm curious how are they performing at the moment including build quality, sound quality...They used to be decent way back when I used it with soundblaster card..
Love this video! Nice work. I was expecting at least some differences. I think it's a soviet clone from the 8088
For info: these old hard drives should be parked before power off with some utility as HDPARK. These drives hasn't parking feature built-in and spindle may be locked by head landed on outer region (where root directory is located in FAT filesystems).
You and your wife look very happy which is nice to see. Does she happen to have any sisters living in Canada.
That IDE sound. I believe I had an HDD of that caliper into the early 2k's. So nostalgic to hear the windings and see the old flat grey cables. Reminds me of a modern day pi board with their 40 pin header.
Wow, that's interesting. Thank you for this video)
This is the first time I've seen you and that's not what I expected at all. I'm not really sure what I was expecting to be fair.
Bald white dude with a white stubbly beard.
Me too. He looks pretty cool, in my opinion.
@@Voidsworn Peter has so much style, he should be in an 80s collection himself. ;-)
Wow, they are evenly matched - I honestly didn't expect that one honestly.
Honestly?
True. Also the chips were quite similar.
Wow this channel is a gem💙
Ihr seid ja ein großartiges Paar 👍 toll, dass ihr eurer Hobby teilen könnt!
How she introduces the Soviet CPU in Russian is priceless :D
The chip is beautiful too (and it's not alone).
As for the results: I'm not too surprised that it's a 1:1 clone though it was really interesting and somewhat exciting too as I wasn't particularly sure that this is the case.
Thumbs up for everything.
Вау, не ожидал услышать русскую речь. Спасибо)
Excellent video as always my friend!
Thank you!
Very interesting chip comparison. Also, you have chosen very well. You have superb taste in selecting your Russian imports!
Any differences in execution cycle timings is probably hidden by the limiting RAM speed. It can't execute instructions any faster than it can fetch them through that 8-bit bus.
Common logical instructions probably have the same general cycle count because of the general architecture, even if it's different in detail. You need to perform specific benchmarks on "hard" or complex instructions; e.g. MUL and DIV which are microcoded.
Your marriage is saved! 😄 Very interesting test. Obviously the Soviet chip manufacturers did a good job of reverse engineering 😊👍
Wow, that is the most advanced XT mobo i've ever seen! Greetings to your wife, she is very cool! :D
Nice to see you and your misses. Please thank her for taking part :)
A true Russian classic! An absolute gem. Unbelievable quality, and performance. They don't make wives like that anymore!
Well known quality from a country which does not exist anymore? Hell yeah
@@lksr.6938 about the quality... it's fake too. I've seen this "quality" and talked to engineers from USSR era. No, I prefer Intel originals)
@@valdisblack1541 moreover, there is nothing russian in ussr engineering!))
@@lksr.6938 верно
Another brilliant video. Really nicely done! Your co host is superb, please invite her back again!
Thanks for your feedback! Okay, she will appear for sure again on my channel. ☺️
You and your wife are the best thing ever to happen to TH-cam tech videos. This is great! :)
Thank you! ☺️
Always wondered about Soviet era tech, awesome comparison!
Отличный пример, каким должен быть youtube!
She looks breathtaking, and an engineer, also? You are incredibly lucky! She reminds me of my lovely wife. ❤️
Видео понравилось! Вспомнил первый курс в институте. Лайк.
The coincidence is getting funnier every time. You cover every topic in regards of CPUs I had in mind one by one :D This USSR Chip comparison was already for a long time on my list and I was curious to do it. I know, that the soviet 8088 clone was an "illegal" 1:1 copy. The engineers sliced the CPU, made photos under the microscope and "simply" copied the silicon. I was expecting the same performance indeed, but I was curious about stability and compatibility, because this has a lot to do with the reproduction quality. So did you have any stability or compatibility issues? And there was also a 8086 clone, would be also interesting to know how that one behaves :D
And in regards of Алиса, looks like we have more in common, than I thought ;) Огромное спасибо за этот замечательный канал!
I used them as kid in computer class, at least they were stable enough for games :D
The fact that the Soviet clone performed exactly like the original makes me think it was obtained via espionage and not independently designed/reverse engineered.
initial models were obtained via espionage, later models such as Riga and Gauja were independently made
As Lassi said, I think these were cloned "simply" by x-raying legally obtained examples. The lithography was around 1,000x larger and the transistor count was literally 1,000,000 times smaller than that of a modern, higher end desktop CPU.
@@ocudagledam
I posted this elsewhere: I think some of the Soviet microprocessors were copies and some were independent developments. The Soviet 580, a compatible cpu with the Intel 8080, was used in many Soviet computers and does not have an identical die layout as the 8080. On the other hand, the Soviet 1858, compatible with the Zilog Z80, has a die layout identical to the Z80, and was probably made directly by buying or stealing original semiconductor fabrication masks. The 1801 was a completely Soviet native design that happened to implement the PDP-11 instruction set. I don't know about the Soviet 1810/Intel 8088. I would like to see a comparison between an LSI-11 (PDP-11 reduced to one or two chips) and the Soviet 1801. Though, I don't think the LSI-11 and the 1801 are pin compatible. Perhaps a 580/8080 would be a better matchup.
Clock cycles for each instruction was public knowledge, and there was no cache or superscalar or prediction of any sort. Anyone making a "clone" would have exactly the same performance even if it's done by some college freshman (yes, I did make a CPU with few instructions exactly like 8088 when I was in school)
You are wrong. I can hardly imagine infiltration in relatively small Intel back than.
It’s very well known technic, widely used by many western companies as well - they simply cut silicon layer by layer and make a photo of each layer. Simple.
I only wonder why this took long four years to? They probably had too many tea breaks in their “research” institutes
I was surprised that they performed evenly, I was actually sure that the Soviet clone is slightly faster.
This I was expecting as well.
@@CPUGalaxy They both have the same clock speed
Sehr schöne Beiträge, fachlich und von der Ausführung echt super gemacht. Weiter so :-)
I did not expect such an exact match, not even by a tiny bit of difference. It might have been important since some things did busy for loops for waiting that were tuned to the CPU, but wow is that precise.
It will be interesting to see Czechoslovak Tesla too.
Czehoslovakia have 8088 clone too?!
Privet! Russian bear has won, I love it!
You channel keeps getting better and better...
Thank you!
This is awesome. There are also some modern higher clocked clones of these chips that have 1 to 1 compatibility.
Oh, btw, my money would be on the russian chip being an exact clone of the intel. Probably etched the top off one and reverse engineered it. A feat in it's own right I will add
I haven't watched the whole video yet, but there's a great story how DEC engineers engraved on one of their chips, the Russian words in Cyrillic: "VAX - when you care enough to steal the very best" (I'm not sure how they transliterated VAX) I've actually heard a Russian brag about how exactly this was copied with the rest of the chip, which, as you mentioned, is a feat in its own right.
Your wife is so beautiful 👌🏼
This is just brilliant. I love the idea of seeing if intel old chips stack up against others of the era from other countries.
Thats a beautiful ceramic CPU! One question about the board, if you run mem.exe what does it output? Can it use the extra 128kb as extended ram using himem.sys?