This Railcar Manufacturer is in BIG Trouble (CRRC)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2024
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Seems like the LA Metro is also getting tired of CRRC now that they are getting new subway cars from Hyundai Rotem instead of continuing to buy from CRRC
LA Metro will receive 64 cards from the order but choose not to purchase the 218-car option on the contract after the delays and MBTA issues. They are purchasing 182 cars from Hyundai Rotem instead.
@@mitchbart4225 thanks for the info! I saw they were getting a lot of Hyundai Subway units but I didn’t know how many CRRC units would still enter service
@@CrazyDash9 That's if Hyundai-Rotem gets the ok to proceed. Stadler is contesting the award as apparently math done by the LA Metro supposedly was incorrect and the correct result according to Stadler would have led to getting the contract.
That’s Stadler’s claim, at least. That said, it’s depressingly normal for companies losing a bid to sue and try to reverse the decision - the economic incentive is so big that it’s worth wasting a few million in legal fees.
@@mitchbart4225 AnsaldoBreda all over again.
This makes me really glad that Marta ordered from Stadler and not CRRC.
Between Swiss and Chinese manufacturing… what a hard decision lmao
Stadler doesn't have the best reputation either. Would be better to go with someone like Siemens or Alstom already.
@@YourLocalUkrainianGerman Stadler is supplying Berlin s newest metro cars , those are amazing !
@@YourLocalUkrainianGerman Stadler has a better reputation than even Siemens, and certainly better than Alstom! You are probably thinking of AndsaldoBreda or Bombardier...
Ah yes *Marta*
Damn, This is big. I am Philly native and frankly happy they cancelled this bad equipment project. We already had enough issues with Rotem trains. Who wants more garbage on their rails.
I really miss those USA subway car builders: Budd, St. Louis Car, Pullman-Standard, American Car and Foundry😢
Need to get back to having a home grown manufacturer
ACF are still around, although they don’t currently offer passenger equipment. Budd and Pullman both were ultimately absorbed by Bombardier, which then sold the division to Alstom. I’m not sure who, if anyone, owns the St. Louis Car designs or other rights at this point.
Thanks a lot Reagan!
@@interstellarphredThe Reagan administration deserves a lot of the blame for the evisceration of American manufacturing and the prioritization of “shareholder value” over all other considerations.
And now we’re seeing the consequences of it: Boeing ruining its once stellar reputation for safety; dependence on other countries for things like masks during the pandemic; vulnerability of industries like semiconductors to geopolitical threats; and the fact that there’s no American competitor in these bids, while a state-owned Chinese manufacturer like CRRC can undercut the ones with better products.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuisBombardier messed up its reputation with faulty subway and streetcars supplied to the TTC in Toronto as well as the subway cars that didn’t perform well in New York and Chicago. Finally Alstom is now building streetcars and LRV vehicles for both TTC and Metrolinx in the greater Toronto area and Hitachi got the subway car contract for the new Ontario subway line from Metrolinx.
I love what Washington Metro did about their CRRC contract. Thanks to rejecting CRRC before they could proceed, they were able to ricochet the bullet right back to China and reset the contract. Now, their new 8000-series cars are being built right here in Maryland by Hitachi, who last made rolling stock for them in the 80s and 90s and refurbished their original 70s cars (this Italian part of the company was then known as Breda).
I mean, Breda are nothing to write home about either.
Metro also uses Kawasaki cars and used CAF in the past.
Well, look at the Purple Line light rail being built here in Maryland, and hopefully that line finally opens when they say it will because it's been a hell of a long time coming. CAF made the trains for that. And yes, Metro's currently newest and majority fleet was made by Kawasaki, who has not been without their problems either despite like Hitachi being Japanese instead of Chinese. And those trains replaced the 70s Rohr, 90s Breda and early 2000s CAF trains because those were aging and too problematic themselves. Luckily, though, the problems with the Kawasaki cars either were or might still be in the process of being resolved. I don't know. Even Hyundai Rotem in Korea has been a little problematic, but that's outside of the DMV region. As for the new Hitachi trains, they are replacing the Breda trains from the 80s that were later refurbished by Alstom, with those from the early 80s now gone for good themselves. And any additional new cars could replace the Alstom cars from the late 2000s as well, otherwise those will eventually be the last cars in the pre-Kawasaki legacy fleet.
@@rockchildproductionsDC has the best US subway I have ever seen. It’s relatively reliable and they seem to be doing a good job fixing it up
I hope they are better than the Kawasaki 7000 series junk. The Bredas lasted forever, as did the Alstoms.
You get what you pay for. The laws around this need to change so that there's actual consideration of each manufacturer beyond just the price tag.
Exactly, as someone who has evaluated 'tenders' I can tell you that the forces of corruption are overwhelming, make no mistake. And the Chinese are the most corrupt I have ever see followed by East African officials.
CRRC is now banned from all contracts involving Federal Money.
My fellow Americans desperately need to re-deploy and fully embrace that saying, “you get what you pay for.” If American people and companies started acting according to this principle, so many of our issues would be solved. Quality should always trump everything else in virtually every circumstance. Unfortunately, quality these days is considered a luxury at best and wasteful or unnecessary at the worst.
I’m from Philly… and a huge train nerd. We have trains built by Hyundai Rotem that had a flaw that forced all of them to be taken out of service for months. Now, any manufacturer is capable of having issues as nothing is perfect. But, this caused complete chaos for commuters and travelers throughout the region. Once again, nothing is perfect, but this was probably caused by cutting corners and using shitty parts and shitty manufacturing…. I don’t think any company or individual just always buys the cheapest option when buying something…. If they did, they would probably end up with nothing but issues, just like these transit agencies are dealing with…. It’s so dumb!!!!
@@brianred8 Oh I hear you. up here in Ottawa, our council was so incompetent in their in their discussions with the relevant parties that we still don't have a non-dysfunctional train system 5 years after it reopened...
Those Orange Line trains will be lucky to make it to 30 years. It's like SEPTA's two subways where they're replacing the 30 year old trains before the 50 year old trains.
The broad street line trains are the same age as the r62 in nyc which is around 40.
R62 was Kawasaki's next order after the B-IV's
Totally agreed. Adtranz is the company that manufactured the Market Frankford (L) trains back in 1997 - and they're absolutely falling apart, not even 30 years old yet. The Broad Street Line trains are fully 15 years older than the MFL trains and they're significantly more reliable. I suspect that MBTA's Orange Line trains will be in a similar spot as the MFL is today with these new trains, they'll end up needing to replace them before they should.
@@snowman400843 to be exact .
as a massachusetts resident, i honestly hope they keep at least a few of the old subway cars, they may be old and dirty but i love those old cars
6:20 RIGHT!!!!
Don’t hate the player, hate the game. CRRC played these agencies and they got what they deserved.
I agree lol but I also don’t think other state owned businesses should be able to play the game
True, but I think that the laws around acquisition of transit vehicles should be changed so that agencies don't have to go with the lowest bidder and can instead go with a manufacturer that the agency has an existing relationship with or has a track record of similar work. Personally I think that the bidding should be either longest vehicle service life or lowest lifecycle cost if possible.
@@rileycoyote4924 - That is the same way NASA felt about the traditional rocket makers, so NASA went with them, and we are still waiting for them to fulfill their promise!
Fortunately, NASA also gave SpaceX some seed money, at the lowest price, and their Falcon 9 rocket has worked at pretty well.
The game is the legal system.
Not really, it was corrupt 'blue' officials who hate America!
As a Philly rail-fan I'm honestly kind of relived this happened. I've been keeping tabs on this since 2021 and the whole CRRC deal gave me a bad feeling from the get-go. If you ask me, they should consider going with Kawasaki for more rolling stock nest time. Considering they manufactured the city's subway rolling stock....
Although, part of me would love to see a revitalization of domestic manufacturing for passenger rail. The former Budd facility around the corner from where I live is prime and open real estate, complete with all of the infrastructure they'd need to do just that!
I ride SEPTA. I don't recall any news articles about this.
China has a tofu-dreg manufacturing construction problem. Subscribe to China Observer, China Insights, China Truths or any of the primary-source TH-cam channels focused on China. The problems they reveal would scare you away from these low-ball manufacturers.
Really we need more passenger rail projects nationwide so there's consistent for domestic manufacturing of high quality passenger trains. Siemens is able to have a plant in Sacramento thanks to the Amtrak, Brightline contracts along with becoming the de facto manufacturer for LRVs in North America after Bombardier imploded due to rampant quality control issues which got them blacklisted by the New York MTA.
Where do you think Stadler and Siemens build their US trains anyway? Stadler, while a Swiss company, has a factory in Utah, and Siemens has a factory in Sacramento, California, if I remember correctly.
As an occasional SEPTA Regional Rail rider, this is probably one of the best decision the agency have done since cancelling the KOP extension.
Communist China builds low-quality junk?...whodda thunk it!
the CTA order was from CSR/Sifang, who was later acquired by CRRC. Sifang's quality for the CTA seems to be much better than CRRCs for the MBTA.
CRRC was created as a merger of CNR and CSR, the MA plant was originally CNR Changchun. Honesty I think most of the problem is just the dumpster fire that is the MA plant.
Yes. The MBTA cars are built by CRRC MA, which is mostly American management.
@@edisonz2006 IMO it shows its not a "Chinese company" issue as much as individual poorly performing company. CAF, Alstom, and former Bombardier have all had their issues with various agencies worldwide.
CRRC MA is under CRRC Changchun which is formally part of CNR at the time of the MBTA contracts. CNR and CSR merged to form CRRC some time later, ironically as an attempt to stop them from having bidding wars on international projects. CRRC like its perdicessors, CNR and CSR, are a loose collection of more than a dozen Chinese rail equipment manufactures that operate semi-independently. Changchun and Sifang are the 2 major manufacturers of subway trains in China.
When it comes to American management, the unions can do whatever they want at the protection of politicians. It seems like our politicians just want CRRC to fail because they are Chinese.
Should've ordered them from Stadler or Siemens
This is going to drive way more business especially to Stadler. With the increasing emphasis on commuter rail in the USA in recent years, Stadler might want to consider a second USA plant somewhere east of the Mississippi, especially with many commuter railroads in the eastern USA in dire need of replacement train sets.
Or, Kawasaki.
Well stadler doesn’t usually do metro trains and Siemens is already busy with regular intercity rail orders so this is unlikely for the time being
There were plans on expanding the blue line car order from Siemens to replace the cars on the orange line, but the 2008 stock market crash and the MBTA not having enough money put a stop to that.
Did either bid for the tender?
LA Metro's CRRC award wasn't a low bid structure, in fact price was only weighted at 30%, and this wasn't the sole factor leading to them beating out Hyundai Rotem. You can find this in Metro board report 2016-0646, attachment A. Basically Hyundai Rotem had some delays at the time and Metro staff were maybe too confident about the relatively unknown CRRC.
This. Most US agencies have abandoned this “lowest bid wins” mentality specifically because it encourages bad actors to underbid and then submit change orders to bring the contact up to its real cost. In fact, I believe FTA rules now require a multi-factor bid process.
LA’s mistake is forgivable, if only because at the time CRRC’s performance issues hadn’t yet occurred, the national security concerns weren’t anywhere near what they are today, and LA was seeing positive signs both from CRRC and similar manufacturers like BYD in the LA area.
LA’s order also left them plenty of room for error: the cars ordered were necessary for the D line extension, but that CAN be operated with less cars (for now) once it opens using older stock. That gave LACMTA time to bail on CRRC and go to Hyundai without risking operations for the 2028 Olympics.
The Koreans did the same years ago with Hyundai Rotem. Quality issues and delays in Philadelphia meant SEPTA for their equipment and Boston almost canceled their contract.
We should have canceled the SLV order and gone with someone else. That was delayed as well as they did nothing to help septa when those cars had the defect
Similar story with the Bombardier R179s
Only CRRC and Hyundai Rotem are known to produce rolling stock worldwide due to their large assets and market share. But there is more than CRRC and Hyundai Rotem and that is J-TREC which is one of the famous and produces high quality trains in Japan particularly in Tokyo owned by JR East.
All I can recommend is that the Japanese rolling stock manufacturers should join in bidding in the procurement of rolling stock of the MBTA. But, it looks like CRRC is biased by the MBTA because of the cheap price of the train, spare parts, and maintenance. But when it comes to practicality, it is better to get Japanese brands such as J-TREC which is one of the manufacturers of E235 and E233 series of JR East in Tokyo. And the same goes for Hitachi and Kawasaki Heavy Industries who also make trains for the Tokyo Metro and other railway lines in Japan.
I don't trust Hyundai Rotem because ROTEM has many bad records in South Korea, particularly in Seoul Metro and Korail. Not only in their country but also in the export trains of ROTEM overseas. Just this May, ROTEM's newly invented KTX-Eum (EMU-260), a high-speed rail in their country of South Korea, was found to have a defect. But less than three years later, a defect was found in the train, which suddenly stopped in the middle of the trip. Unlike the Shinkansen, at least one has not recorded a massive accident or derailment. If the Shinkansen stops in the middle of the trip it is because of the strong earthquake in Japan.
Japanese Trains > Other rolling stock manufacturers (E.g. Hyundai Rotem, CRRC, Alstom)
Stadler and Siemens are one of the good rolling stock manufacturers in the world. Bombardier is moderately good too.
@@avidtan6531 Bombardier doesn’t exist anymore because Alstom absorbed them in 2021
If the price seems too good to be true, it usually is .
The MBTA order was more than just the cheapest bid. The MA governor at the time, Deval Patrick, saw this as an opportunity to also bring manufacturing jobs to MA with the facility that CRRC would build. This hasn’t exactly worked out for those people the way Patrick envisioned, and with all the other issues before parts even got to the factory, the workers literally were building nothing for months.
The MBTA sometimes gets it right though. Siemens was not the low bidder on the blue line contact, but the T went with them, because the low bidder was Breda and after the green line type 8 debacle the T wanted nothing to do with them.
I would've just gone with Kawasaki. The NYC subway system uses kawasaki.
Kawasakis in Philly still going strong as well
I agree on their past trains and trolley cars they built for Philadelphia have aged well and soon both will be needed to be replaced.
Japanese rolling stock manufacturers are superior all the time.
I remember when New York was in the middle of the R211 order and CRRC attempted to bid but they were banned.
even bullet trains design is ugly as hell european is way better. They try but they failed they are weak on this competition spare parts and logistics and support. They are new on this business and they are not willing to grow and learned the western way. Not like their competitors years of decades of existence.
@@Ryan-he2qz "Not willing to grow and learned the western way" is quite a claim. What about your gleaming, done-western-style new MTA R211 Kawasakis that keeps getting taken out of service?
@@robinsonshawqx kawasaki is the best i can say its actually older than chinese government own railway manufacturer. Its has more experience in manufacturing designing and its own technology. Not just copying some bodys technology. Japan has more builders than china . Chins just have more rails
@@Ryan-he2qz Quite astonishing commentary here. I guess it's better to leave you alone and entertained in your fantasy world. :D
At least I’m glad that WAMTA did Hitachi-rail instead of CRRC
Hitachi has taken flak for some of their recent stuff too, most notably the Class 80x IET trains in the UK, while they're reliable, they're notorious for poor ride quality and uncomfortable seating. From a passenger standpoint they're considered objectively worse than the IC125 and IC225 trains they're replacing, the consolation prize being that they get up to speed MUCH faster than the old IC125 HSTs even in diesel mode
Hopefully Hitachi doesn’t start using Breda technology.
Or at least J-TREC or Kawasaki.
They should have ordered from Bombardier which is now Alstom, that’s what San Francisco’s BART did
Seeing how Alstoms reputation has rapidly been declining, they might not have been much better
Sooner or later that can change
@@evanstonbalce9588 Alstom is at the beginning of a Boeing type decline, the French would need to push them hard to prevent it going further
@@gandhihype ironically their issues started after acquiring the Bombardier Rail division
Really surprised at how CRRC is playing out in the US, here in Mexico ever since around 2019 they have been gaining contracts for all of mexico's mayor cities starting with an order for the Monterrey metro, then some for both Mexico City's metro and light rail and more recently Guadalajara's metro, along with even more trains for Monterrey's. That being said, CRRC here doesn't have a factory, instead it builds and tests trains in China before shipping them here.
That’s the difference: CRRC in the US can’t just take an off the shelf train model, and tweak it to meet track envelopes and other local requirements. They had to design it from scratch, essentially.
It’s a bit like telling Toyota to make a car in the US using a Japanese model’s body, but only using GM and Ford components. It’d be a disaster.
Companies like Siemens handle this by having US-based manufacturing for their components, along with US engineers and assembly plants, building US-specific designs. That takes a LONG time to set up and build, with a big upfront investment, none of which CRRC was able to do.
@@kilodeltaeight…the biggest single issue is that each system is vastly different so no two subway or rail systems are the same. the closest that came were PATH’s and MBTA Blue Line cars being the same bodies but even then they had different electrical system needs: third rail only vs. dual-mode electric
CRRC is like china . an american adversary sooner later will become an enemy it depends how china will play with united states. They think always they can play with american industry. Where they learn and grow and funded their industry. Globalization help china to build their industry. They will ask you to tranfer your technology so they can copy. They are good with that. Mexico should not 100% trust them one day they will take your land and dominate it.
@@bostonrailfan2427 well, people here think _yay, China lost._ But end of the day, who is the bigger loser? How did China build so much rail so quickly? Yes, their gov dumped a ton of cash into it. But that's not the only thing. There is simply too much variety. Every train is being reinvented anew with every new batch of order. There is zero efficiency of scale, too much is being spent and re-spent on unnecessary R&D, and think about the spares in the coming years. The fact that the trains are so eye wateringly expensive meant it goes around, and made things worse when cities think _it's so much money, we should award points if they promise to build a new factory and create jobs locally_ so part of the cost is economic stimulus? It's just a box with wheels plus motors (for the EMUs) with seats bolted inside. WTF high-tech are we talking about here? It's a $700m contract for not quite 200 cars. How much is that per car? It's insanity. People are being fleeced. We've been building trains for hundreds of years, but they have not become commodities yet. Each is still an expensive shinny custom job. It's boxes on wheels. Yes, with more modern motors. But they still shouldn't be THAT expensive.
@@kilodeltaeight That's not totally true. It seems CRRC has a reputation for this sort of thing in places like Germany and other parts of the world where they won contracts. It seems to be a serious flaw with CRRC, that they are very hit or mess on at least their export contracts.
I miss Nippon Sharyo
They made the south shore cars!
@@markvogel5872 Correct, they also made all new metra cars for the last couple of decades and some other stuff in North America. They also made a bunch of stuff for South America, Southern and Southeast Asia as well as their home country of Japan, which includes some Shinkansen trains.
RIP P865/P2020
This is the perfect opportunity to use the Patrick Scientist vs Patrick Nail meme from SpongeBob.
CRRC building rolling stock in China: Scientist Patrick looking into a Microscope
CRRC built Rolling Stock in North America: Patrick with a wood plank nailed to his forehead
Note to self: NEVER buy anything made in America.
I think it's because of their rushed approach to the US market, they didn't even have a factory before winning the bids. I'm no railway expert but CRRC stock in my city are on par with Alstom and CAF counterparts, at least in ride quality, but those were built in China, and they're really new so I don't know if they're gonna last long. We'll see if they have success but as of now there's no trouble with them.
Tbf I find CRRC a very funny company in terms of train quality. I'm from Hong Kong and we have trains from CRRC that are trash, but also have trains from CRRC that are actually high quality. Not sure why but CRRC really should try to keep their products a high quality standard instead of everything between trash and decent.
That is because CRRC owns multiple factories that were originally separated and competed with each other (which is still kind of true today). MTR's early CRRC trains are from CRRC Changchun, while new Q-Trains are from CRRC Qingdao Sifang with better quality.
Well even within the same factory, they still have a huge quality gap. The S train and TML C train which are also from CRRC Changchun are of higher quality than the URL C train which is from the same factory. More blizzard, the later batch of URL C trainsare actually higher quality than the earlier batches
Indeed. Here in Sydney Australia we bought 80x 8 car sets from CRRC Changchun delivered around 2011 with a further 41x 8 car sets, which were delivered 2020-2021. They were co-manufactured with a local company here who did the final assembly and commissioning. By all accounts those have been the most reliable and are the best sets we have on the network.
I suspect that especially good contract management is a key part of getting a good outcome with this manufacturer.
@@mallardlner5473 I remember HK also put the Q-Train under more scrutiny as the factory making them also made the C151A rolling stock for Singapore's MRT, 80% of which had cracked bolsters after just 2 yrs +, & which was made known to the public only 3 yrs later (when HK news agency Unwire flew a drone into a port & filmed C151As being loaded onto a ship to be returned to Qingdao for repair). What's more, in that 3 yrs, the same factory (under the same JV with Kawasaki used for the C151As too) won yet another rolling stock contract. Singapore would then award a subsequent rolling stock contract to CRRC's Changchun factory instead (but branded as Bombardier (now Alstom)), maybe due to the Qingdao factory's bad press, but after that I guess Qingdao managed to regain enough trust & won another contract, this time without Kawasaki (though it has parts made by other companies e.g. Siemens will be making it's electrical components)
A „cheapest bid wins“ policy is of course the most stupid policy you can have, as it de facto guarantees that you get crap quality. In most European countries you would find a combination of qualitative criteria, in which price is only one of several factors, but not the only decisive one. (that‘s not to say that all purchases of rolling stock are without problems, but the said policy is a guarantee for failure!)
Even in europe most transit agencies are forced to pick the cheapest bidder by law, which sometimes results in very particular requirements, and therefore more or less only one bidder having a fitting product.
Great coverage of this important development, thanks for the video.
BTW, please use a low cut, or high pass filter with your microphone, or remove those lower frequencies in a DAW, my subwoofer was really annoying while trying to listen to your video at volume because of the plosives, and rumbling
I’d been suspicious about CRRC since 2019 but no one seemed to have an issue then. Back when the MBTA new cars started with a terrible performance I again called foul but no one noticed as the cheaper cost seemed worth it. The work culture and quality control at CRRc aren’t the best. But I’m glad to see the competition heating up in the American market with so many rail equipment manufacturers setting up their presence here for the broader North American and South American markets. Hopefully this increased competition should help bring down equipment costs and allow agencies to choose better equipment.
I take the red line every day to school, and I often get a CRRC train. They are definitely an improvement from the ancient red line cars that have been in use since the 60’s, but they are still kinda loud, kinda uncomfortable, and often glitchy. Every time a CRRC is about to arrive on the red line, it’s prefaced by an announcement saying “The next train to Braintree (or Ashmont or Alewife) is now approaching, with brand new red line cars!” but the same single CRRC train has been running up and down the line for 3 or so years, and it doesn’t feel remotely new anymore. Apart from that single CRRC train, the rolling stock on the red line consists of old trains that have not gone a day without one breaking down, and I’m waiting for the day when they finally replace them, albeit with only slightly better rolling stock. MBTA and CRRC, do better.
It is a pity that Metro-Cammell ceased production. Their subway trains were reliable and lasted for years, unfortunately, they were taken over and closed.
I agree.
For instance, the first generation MTR and KCR trains in Hong Kong (I'm from there) that were supplied by Metro Cammell had been built to last and were quality products. The original KCR trains (so-called "yellow heads") had a designed lifespan of 30 years, but ended up lasting 40 years (and that was on top of a mid-life refurbishment in the late 1990s that increased their crush load by 15%). The MTR Metro Cammell trains that were built between 1976 and 1994 (also refurbished in the late 1990s) are now just starting to be replaced by CRRC-made trains, and the latter have big shoes to fill.
Metro Cammell was a testament to solid British craftsmanship and engineering. If only Singapore's MRT had gone with Metro Cammell for its first generation rolling stock, the firm would have been in less troubled waters financially and perhaps would even have been able to stave off bankruptcy and subsequent takeover by Alstom.
@@Polyglot0613 Singapore's MRT eventually awarded the contract for its 1st gen rolling stock to Kawasaki, supposedly because it had a more modern propulsion system (GTO) at that time. These stock are now being replaced by newer ones by Bombardier though (which has since been acquired by Alstom, & made at CRRC Changchun factory I think)
I imagine the privatization of British Rail played a role in the demise of much of Britain's railcar manufacturing.
@@souvikrc4499 Very true.
LA Metro doesn't go by cheapest contract. It goes by reputation. CRRC didn't have a NA reputation when the cars were first ordered. So this CRRC is a repeat of AnsaldoBreda in hindsight
Here in SF bay area we have: Seamans light rail cars for Muni, Alstom/Bombaredier BART cars(they had their problems but are mostly all fixed now) and lovely Stadler trains for Caltrain. Good rolling stock all across the board
*Siemens
Seamsn = Siemens. It's German company w/ a German name...
The 01100's were the best rolling stock to ever run on the Orange line. Built by Pullman, simple, rugged, quiet, and retired prematurely, they were in better shape than the '12's were at the end of service.
At least with MBTA, it's a little more complicated. There were two Chinese companies that bid on the contract: CNR and CSR. CNR was excluded because they completely failed the technical assessment (which means MBTA thought they were technically incapable of satisfying the contract). CAF was excluded because they failed the capital check (which means MBTA thought they didn't have enough money on hand to satisfy the contract). Hyundai-Rotem was excluded because they were currently being sued by MBTA over another contract which they executed poorly. Siemens didn't bid. Bombardier made an absurdly high bid (signaling that they weren't interested in the contract). So CSR was actually the only reasonable bid they received.
After winning the contract, CSR merged with CNR (the company that MBTA thought couldn't handle the contract) to form CRRC, and put former CNR staff in charge of the MBTA contract (again, the very same people that MBTA had excluded as not technically competent to execute the contract). And MBTA was right.
That's ridiculous.
The CTA # 07000 series are doing great from a friend of mine from Chicago CRRC torn down what was the Pullman plant in West Chicago and build a new plant there I seen the three Septa double deck cars on TH-cam being ship by CSX to Septa Septa should keep these 3 cars and have Siemens of Sacramento put them together at there plant
I Boston we have Subway Trains over 100 years old used for Work and Maintenance and they always Work, one Trolley line the Trolley's are 88 years old and never break down !!!
As Dutch it reminds me of the FYRA debacle with Ensaldo-Breda. Now the traject is served with Bombardier Traxx and regular wagons.
If you want old Budd Cars Still in service. My home Railroad LIRR still has M3 cars in service due to not having enough M9 cars so my recommended thing to do before they eventually get phased out for the newer cars is to ride them.
Boston here - I was hoping Siemens was going to bid. The Blue Line cars have been great and had almost no problems. Sadly, they did not bid.
it’s not the first time the T regretted their winning bidder…the Type 8s were only accepted into service after major modifications and legal actions that forced the train builder to fix them at mo expense or the contract was nullified
Bring Back the Budd Company
Automatic minimum bid acceptance is such a massive hidden problem here in the US for all sorts of things- part of why rampant "cost overruns" and "time delays" occur. They occur because that contract was massively underbid and is now running up to the costs more reasonable yet it is framed as government waste all the time. That isn't to say municipalities don't waste money but that sometimes, it's due to crap like this.
Honestly, You get what you pay for. Going with a cheaper company gives you a cheaper product. While the New MBTA cars are absolutely stunning and probably some of the best looking in the US. It's clear that looks can be deceiving, and so can price tags. I always go by the motto of "If youre already spending a hefty amount of money for the cheaper option, just get the more expensive one."
The seats are hard 😡
Excellent grom UK 🇬🇧👍👍👍
Up in Canada TTC has put out a tender for 70 new trains to replace their aging Bombardier T1 trains on Line 2 Bloor-Danforth. So far Alstom, CRRC, Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Hyundai Rotem have submitted bids, and I hope that TTC make the right decision.
Meanwhile MTR in Hong Kong is going all in with CRRC trains, having just placed a huge order of 93 8-car trains for their urban line network. The last non-CRRC train were the R-Trains built for the East Rail Line by Hyundai Rotem.
What happened to the possible Siemens trains for Line 2. It would make sense if they go with Alstom if they just build the Movia/Rockets again or unless they build Metropolises. It’d be interesting for Hyundai Rotem, might see a Canada Line style train like in Vancouver. Though LA might have them in the future seeing that they have similar dimensions only off by a few increments
When i was in Boston on Vacation a couple years ago , I remember that there was an announcement that the next Orange Line was one of the new models. Like they had to inform/remind riders that these new trains were real and did exist, it wasn’t som e kind of mass illusion
because they weren’t fully in service yet then…it took a complete shutdown and forced finishing of the existing trains in the US to get them into service
I’m from and live in NEW YORK NY and I can honestly say I’m very happy that NONE of the Subway Trains or Commuter Trains We have were built by CRRC, they came from manufacturers such as Kawasaki and Bombardier and were very well built, it seems as if CRRC isn’t really up to the challenge of building top quality trains but merely cheap equipment that breaks down easily and that’s not good at all really.
Fun fact: I was standing in the exact spot the opening shot of the video was taken less than an hour ago.
Here we got loads of both CSR and CNR rolling stock.Never an issue. CNR cars run on two tight metro lines, very demanding, and ten years out .. no problems. Quality is SOLID. Unsure how bad they got after merging
Bombardier is a quality outfit though.
6:20 Having a lowest-bidder-wins policy by law is madness. I was so looking forward to LA Metro Rail getting new heavy rail rolling stock when I first it was happening. Now I'm stuck wondering how much longer it will be before i get to ride them...
It’s the Massachusetts facility - they’re a MASSIVE problem, and haven’t gotten anything out of that place except the MBTA 1400/1900 Series cars for the MBTA, as well as those 2 LA Metro cars that were delivered to LA, no others to my knowledge.
CTA got 7000 Series cars from the newer factory in Chicago, which why they perform MUCH better, and were even delivered on schedule.
CRRC were part of a consortium to build the High Capacity Metro Trains here in Melbourne, Australia for the Metro Tunnel project. Bombardier/Alstom and the Australian Workers Union weren't happy with the decision as the Alstom buyout of Bombardier's operations meant they had a dominant hold on the public transport manufacturing and maintenance of our trains and trams. CRRC are manufacturing the shells for the trains based on their CCD series but around 60% of the manufacturing will happen here through the consortium under the push for more "Made in Victoria, for Victorians, by Victorians" banner waving at election time. From current testing and operation there hasn't been any significant issues, some delays but to my knowledge nothing that was from CRRC's side. We'll see how they hold up long term.
Septa seems to have history for 1st time suppliers.
The MBTA was plagued with underfunding and such poor leadership in the 2010s; it's not a surprise why the T is in such a decrepit state. Peter Eng is doing the best he can though.
Ici de Montréal! I always found it weird how despite we ordered our CRRC cars in 2017, received our first units in early 2022 and expected to be in service by 2023, these cars are ARE STILL not in service as of 2024. I really though that it was only an us problem, but I guess not! Our transit agency Exo said that they also had software and communication issues. The CRRC cars were initially slated to be in service in 2019...
Going for the lowest bid is great, but I think the transit world would need to understand this concept. Just like with any other products, If you buy cheap, its probably gonna be built cheap.
Now I’m worried about the new HCMT sets they made for Melbourne
The photo of 2 partly completed SEPTA cars shows a similar car at far left apparently for Montreal Exo commuter rail. Those cars are in service and from the photos I've seen they're nasty looking.
During the Trump time in the White House, there was a proposal to bar Chinese companies from bidding on US transit contracts, or bar US transit agencies from awarding contracts to Chinese manufacturers even if their bid was lowest. Existing deals such as MBTA and SEPTA were grandfathered and not to be affected.
The exo cars are not in service as they suffered from software issue. As of today, I believe these cars are still in testing (and yes they look like milk cartons).
And that was passed into law, as I understand, at least with CRRC...
Thank goodness. They were completely unqualified to build these things in the first place. We need actual rail cars, not something from a company that primarily builds light rail vehicles, and trams.
5:22 it should be Siemens because clearly, Siemens knows how to build quality rail equipment in a timely manner
Ehm, not always. ÖBB had several issues with delayed rolling stock and delayed usage certifications. But they produce quality rolling stock, i agree.
Excellent! Where did you get the railcar cost/bid data?
Imagine a CRRC made train being scrapped after 1-2 years.
Say what you want about NYC’s overpriced subway cars, but ever since we decided to go with the experimental trial model before ordering a large batch, we’ve had very reliable train cars.
I think this model should be replicated by every agency, even if it costs more per train. Reliability and long term service is more cost efficient in the long run anyway.
If they can they should change to using RFP's (Request for Proposals) as you can set standards, you can eliminate under bids, you can remove bidders that have a historic failure to deliver suitable product record among a number of other criteria.
SEPTA really should be going to Stadler for the new cars. They're making the most high quality EMUs rolling out on the rails here in the states. KISS units on the highest traffic lines would be badass
I think it is weird that Septa ordered new cars for their regional rail so recently considering that they only just replaced the old ones less than 10 years ago. I might have numbers wrong, but they were still in the process of phasing out the old cars in as late as 2018 (EDIT: I saw in the video that they ordered the newest trains that they canceled in 2017!!! BEFORE ALL THE OLD OLD CARS WERE EVEN PHASED OUT FOR ALREADY NEW ONES).
Why are they spending so much money on new cars instead of making the current system better and run more frequently? People could be more inclined to take the train into the city if they could do it on a whim more easily, and SEPTA's regional rail just doesn't run frequently enough to make it worthwhile for most people.
It seems with CRRC it's a bit of a lottery with what factory they come from. Our CRRC trains, known as HCMTs here in Melbourne, Australia, were built in Chanchung, fitted out locally at the Newport Workshops, and commissioned at a new purpose built depot at Pakenham East.
After minor teething problems, these thankfully have proven to be high quality, reliable trains. The only train type that has been a constant problem is the Siemens Nexas, which have proven unsuitable for Melbourne for many reasons.
Septa and the others dodged a BIG bullet in my opinion.
CRRC trains having issues? Nothing new. The locomotive in my profile picture is a KiwiRail DL Class, built by CRRC. They break down CONSTANTLY. They're only ten years old and already being scrapped and replaced by older EMD's, and new Stadler's.
Contrary to popular opinion, I really like the new orange line trains. I just took a trip on the brand new red line, and it was such an upgrade. Yes these trains have quality issues but CRRC is bringing enormous innovation to the North American rail market. For years, North America has inexplicably had new trains with horrible, dated, ugly designs and CRRC is one of the only manufacturers that has solved this issue. I hope that other, higher quality companies, are able to bring their more modern designs (which they actively use in Europe and Asia) to North America.
If you don't believe me, just look at the difference between the new green line trains built in 2020 compared to the CRRC trains. The CAF trains look absolutely horrible, and are outrageously bad especially given the tram craze going on worldwide. There are no improvements on the 2020 model over trains built in 1988! I would chose the original KS trains any day!
6:15 Canada is not that much different from the US. Ottawa's O-Train LRT contract was given to the cheapest bidder, then guess the final quality. The LRT always shutdown a many weeks per years with multiple derailments already happened with faulty switchers or wheels.
CRRC was also the company that built new Cab cars for EXO AMT in Montreal
Technically, the MBTA deal that brought CRRC to Springfield, MA, wasn't under Buy America. MBTA intentionally didn't use federal funding so that they could impose a "Buy Massachusets" condition on that contract. If you use federal funding, you can't discriminate amongst states when it comes to bidding. CRRC was able to use the factory they built in Massachusetts for bids on future Buy America contracts, though. Any of the other bidders would have needed to set up a separate assembly line in Massachusetts, which explains in part why those bids were so high.
in typical state fashion, it was to get union jobs despite higher costs to the taxpayers, longer delays in building, and no track record of success in the US
I think the problem is only in US, at least here in chile, CRRC is the favorite of the state railroads (EFE), all arrived on time, without failures, or any problem as in US, plus not long ago was confirmed the purchase of 32 regional trains-commuter to CRRC, hopefully they realize that CRRC is not bad, They even have agreements with large railroad companies (Alstom, Siemens, Toshiba) only that they have an explosive demand for orders, including in EUR, China itself and Latin America, give them another opportunity but not to the factory in the US, but to their own factories in China such as (Sifang, Zuzhou, Puzhen)
What I don’t understand is with the Septa trains they’ve not gone low floor easy access like the main metro lines.
Hang on a minute, not all cities have fallen for this? NYC chose Kawasaki (a regular and well-established client), Baltimore chose Hitachi, and Atlanta chose Stadler! Though, we don't see much Siemens, Alstom or CAF
There are a ton of cars from Alstom in NYC. The R160A cars are all Alstom built. R160B cars (smaller fleet) is from Kawasaki with the majority using Alstom propulsion. Then the R211 from Kawasaki subcontracted with Alstom for propulsion.
Siemens is extremely popular in the lightrail market, and them and alstom both are probally going to be the major HSR providers in the future too. For CAF I dont know any of their products besides my city but their trains seem fine after 20 years of service
We might see more Alstom in the future with Montreal having the first Alstom Metropolis Metro Family user in North America. Maybe Siemens can come in too with their Siemens Modular Metro, like the name implies these trains are able to be design for local needs of any metro agency needs, just like how Toronto got a Bombardier Movia variant, the Rocket.
As others have pointed out, Siemens essentially has a monopoly over the light rail market with the S70 and S700 models. They’re everywhere. CAF does mostly streetcars (Kansas City, Cincinnati, Omaha, etc.) but they’ve also done some LRVs for Houston and the Maryland Purple Line. Not much heavy rail stock, though.
MTA NY, WMATA & BART insert Count Dooku the look of superiority.
MTA and BART are suffering because of bombardier being just as garbage lol
lmao true@@thatrandomguy8124
SEPTA should have went with Bombardier/Alstom or Kawasaki!!!
A chinese owned company with lots of easily preventable QC issues? Who woulda thought! That's why you build stuff in 'murica
CRRC _is_ building all of MBTA's trains in the US. They were just bad at it...
Oh, no!!! Railcar manufacturer is BIG trouble now!😱
you mention more reliable manufacturers but also show a picture with bombardier lol but other then that nice video
Great video, but I'd suggest that you check your audio recording equipment. It sounds like you recorded parts of this video in a war zone or something - there a big pulses of low frequencies and infrasound, such as just around 0:14 and 0:34. I thought my neighbors were trying to break our shared wall down. Great video, nonetheless!
I found this to be quite an informative video! I knew that CRRC has been having trouble (including the malfunctioning cars in Boston, the barely-existent cars for SEPTA, and the delays everywhere there's a CRRC Massachusetts contract), but I've learned some stuff. For example, I didn't know about the SEPTA cars' various problems ("these cars have been failing braking tests, haven't been built to proper safety standards, and have had problems with leaky windows and poor wiring"), while at 3:30, I've also learned about the "questionable craftsmanship" and "toxic work environment" at the Springfield plant.
Adding all these together (and even putting aside the national-security concerns raised by CRRC's ownership by the government of China), I think SEPTA did the right thing in cancelling its order.
Thanks for the video!
Looks like the plans for using SEPTAs old Comets on new rail lines around the US and Canada are delayed because the cars aren’t being removed from SEPTA service yet
Where in Canada are they using Comets?
SEPTA should've went to Alstom for the multilevel cars
I live in the MB area. I have seen several issues firsthand with the CRRC railcars we have here. While the new equipment is nice and modern, they don’t run very well, and they tend to have countless mechanical problems that result in huge delays and wide gaps in the service. The last person to run the MBTA transit system was atrocious and negotiated a Kawasaki contract for the Green Line, and then turned around and went with a CRRC contract for the Red and Orange. These trains will be lucky to make it to 15 years before needing to be replaced. We have to do better what is wrong with this states transit system?
Only CRRC and Hyundai Rotem are known to produce rolling stock worldwide due to their large assets and market share. But there is more than CRRC and Hyundai Rotem and that is J-TREC which is one of the famous and produces high quality trains in Japan particularly in Tokyo owned by JR East.
All I can recommend is that the Japanese rolling stock manufacturers should join in bidding in the procurement of rolling stock of the MBTA. But, it looks like CRRC is biased by the MBTA because of the cheap price of the train, spare parts, and maintenance. But when it comes to practicality, it is better to get Japanese brands such as J-TREC which is one of the manufacturers of E235 and E233 series of JR East in Tokyo. And the same goes for Hitachi and Kawasaki Heavy Industries who also make trains for the Tokyo Metro and other railway lines in Japan.
I don't trust Hyundai Rotem because ROTEM has many bad records in South Korea, particularly in Seoul Metro and Korail. Not only in their country but also in the export trains of ROTEM overseas. Just this May, ROTEM's newly invented KTX-Eum (EMU-260), a high-speed rail in their country of South Korea, was found to have a defect. But less than three years later, a defect was found in the train, which suddenly stopped in the middle of the trip. Unlike the Shinkansen, at least one has not recorded a massive accident or derailment. If the Shinkansen stops in the middle of the trip it is because of the strong earthquake in Japan.
Japanese Trains > Other rolling stock manufacturers (E.g. Hyundai Rotem, CRRC, Alstom)
Stadler and Siemens are one of the good rolling stock manufacturers in the world.
I’m so glad the MTA here in NYC has never worked with the CRRC & i hope they don’t start anytime soon. We can stick with Kawasaki as long as necessary.
The whole “lowest bidder wins” thing is a common belief, but isn’t necessarily true - it depends on the state. Federally, the FTA has a whole 300+ best practices guid on contracts and bidding that pretty consistently pushes back on only considering the total capital costs, without explicitly banning it, and provides a ton of guidance on how to structure things if you must go that route to avoid issues.
Generally, though, the idea is to have a process where you identify the Best *Value*, which includes more than just cost - along with things like pre-qualification of bidders and evaluating technical and cost proposals separately. Pretty much everyone requires bids be “responsive and responsible” in addition to lowest cost: in other words, that the winner be the lowest offer that fully meets the requirements of the request for proposals, and does so in a way and by a company that can actually deliver.
Of course, any process can be manipulated, but public agencies aren’t stupid (just constrained by a lot of rules) and don’t *want* to waste money or time on a failed contract. Some politicians certainly may be - corruption is a thing - but that’s part of why the process is so involved to begin with: to ensure it’s fair, transparent, and makes the best use of public dollars.
Re: CRRC specifically, I think where many agencies were misled (or where CRRC just completely fouled up, even in good faith), was that as a new manufacturer in the US they only had their Chinese and other overseas projects to look to when evaluating if they could actually pull their bids off. That’d be fine, but unlike other countries like Mexico where CRRC could design/build/test with components and designs they had already proven/debugged and then ship it over, for the US they had to use mostly US-made components and systems. That meant designing largely from the ground up with unfamiliar hardware, writing new software to interface with it all, and then teaching Americans how to actually assemble it. That’s a hard lift for ANY company, much less a Chinese one with such massive linguistic, cultural, timezone, and operational differences. Add in the hubris of “we’re the biggest rolling stock company in the world, of course we can do this!” - to say nothing of Americans own pride - and it’s entirely unsurprising they bit off more than they could chew and it went sideways.
I’ll add in that comments about the Chinese not knowing how to make things well are WAY off base - they’re incredibly skilled at manufacturing. Look at Apple products: no one would say they’re low quality, even if you don’t like them, despite being manufactured in China. The problem is when you try and make things *cheaply* - like the stuff on TEMU is - because that automatically requires you to cut quality. China’s real gap is in engineering and management, which is exactly what they failed at here.
THANK GOD ALMIGHTY!!!
At Least NYCT was smart enough to not order from CRRC
as a subway lover and 3d designer a while back i came across a b-52 design from bombardier contract review for the new fleet i was shocked to see the new fleet of cars would be design after the 01800 which i feel would have been the best option since they already had fleet that would match the tech
ACF needs to build subway cars again. Its such a shame that all the good car manufacturers (Budd, Bombardier, Hawker-Siddley of Canada, Pullman Standard, Morrison-Knudsen, St Louis Car Company) are all defunct, Leaving us only with Kawasaki, (which their US division makes mediocre cars at best) Hyundai Rotem (its Hyundai, quality is bad across all their divisions) and CRRC (which build cars that are designed to sit in a deadline). Only manufacturer I haven't heard bad things about is Hitachi, but I haven't talked to anyone who runs or services their cars in particular)
thank you Regan for killing domestic manufacturing, and thank you foreign manufacturers for buying up or companies just to shut them down, throw away their designs, and building your junk here. *cough cough* alstom *cough*
Honestly, the Philippine MRT 3 CRRC Made LRV Cars was Still unused after 8 Years due to the CRRC Made LRVs are Heavier than the Older CKD Tatra RT8D5M LRVs made in Czech
Tho there are some Trials and Passenger Operations on the newer CRRC LRVs in 2021, It just temporary, in 2022, the LRVs are still Collecting Dust in the Depot with some Daily Checks until now
You get what you pay for.
There is an argument to go with second-lowest-bidder wins instead. That way, vendors still have an incentive to bid as low as possible, but not unrealistically low. Of course, you have to have at least three bidders for this to work.
I think History in the Dark has more trains to add to his 5 worst trains series, and Andrew the Rocket City Railfan has another episode of Garbage on the Rails to make.
In one of his more recent "Worst Trains" montage, #HistoryInTheDark covered a CRRC locomotive in Thailand and it's just as bad as these commuter cars.
Because of a recent privatization CRRC now owns 40% of the company that brought a rail line (Line 7 - Ruby) in Sao Paulo.
After seeing this video I'm very worried since our governor is very lenient with private companies 😩
This is why major public bid contracts need to be awarded to the lowest responsible bidder,not the lowest bidder. I probably have 30 years as an engineer designing public bid projects for various public agencies. And multiple horror stories of what happens why the contractor goes belly up during construction. It’s ugly, and if the bonding company has to pick up the pieces, it gets uglier.
The CRRC logo looks like the Japanese/Chinese symbol for "Wheel / Car / vehicle / railcar."
It is.
As a taxpayer, I would not be averse to paying a little more on the front end to have higher quality/reliability on the back end. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. This is also why I buy Hondas instead of anything based out of Detroit, Europe, or South Korea.