Big Boss VS Venom Snake | Who is the Ultimate Soldier? - Analysis + FULL Comparison
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ธ.ค. 2024
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both are very bad ass. both have went through their own hell. In the end, though, I personally think Big Boss is the true ultimate soldier. At the end of the day only one of the two was killed by Solid Snake, and venom would be nothing without Big Boss. I say this is a win for Big Boss with only the slightest of margins, both are bad ass in their own right.
Just like you said in the video, Venom's mind control was interrupted so part of Big Boss's memories were corrupted, and he did not retain everything that made him Big Boss. Adapting a more aggressive CQC may or may not be enough to go up against someone who co-invented the technique. There may be things that Venom did not retain during the mind control process. Big Boss also shows superior tactical prowess, as everything involving Venom, Outer Heaven, and Zanzibar land was his design. Venom was just an expert pilot in some one else's ship with the illusion of control.
I also don't think that Big Boss would give Venom every aspect of himself and leave the possibility for a rival. I think that he would hold enough knowledge and memories back so that in the end he would always be the superior of the two. If he wasn't hell bent on power and revenge he would not have went underground creating another better army, he would just retire.
Brilliant perspective on the whole scenario. This video was made with the intention of such comments. Thank you for sharing your thoughts! 😉
- Python & Selkan
Great out view your right though big boss does have a slight edge. Kept you waiting.
Your last paragraph is really interesting. It sounds very logic and obvious but I never read anyone pointing it out. Great analysis
It really comes down to one thing in the end: which soldier can ROCKET PUUUUUNCH
Who has the bond with deadly quiet??....
the other guy could bench press a mech and fought huge a$$ monsters though.
@@gunplamaniac8500 I assume you mean Raiden?
Ah yes, but can Venom lift a fucking metal gear stomping down on him?
@@orangesoda4535 big boss did that in peacewalker
Not gonna lie...Venom has easily become one of my favorite characters in the franchise.
Venom doesn't exist.
@@eugenijusdolgovas9278 uhhhh he's in the first metal gear game so he's canon and real
Wait was he? I didn't notice him during my play through
Venom sacrificed his life for bigg boss.
@@eugenijusdolgovas9278 But your venom (u the player)
Venom Snake isn't completely forgotten by history. After all, whose name did we all write on Raiden's dogtags in MGS2? If the intention was for it to be the player's name, then that retroactively means the Patriots were trying to turn Raiden into a doppelganger of the Venom Snake, not Solid; which checks out in my mind, because Venom can be seen as the forerunner to the Cyborg Ninjas who would start popping up later on. With Venom representing a proof of concept that you don't need to be genetically identical to the legendary mercenary to replicate his results, it's clear the Patriots AI were trying to duplicate Venom. They're just programs repeating a pattern after all. . .
Venom Snake is better IMO. Just consider everything he did and went through, only for it all to be put to someone else's name. Most of the things Big Boss would become infamous for were actually down to Venom.
Big Boss took a bullet to the eye < Venom Snake took an explosive to his face
I have always think the same, Venor had to endure a lot.
Yeah but we all saw how the real big boss escaped the hospital
AND they were infamous (like killig African kids) because Venom let them be
*THEY GOT MY EYE*
Trick question, its revolver Ocelot.
It's Solid Snake
Its otacon
@@lolazoretr0563 It's Raiden
Heh.. good idea sir, true protagonist of MGS frachise. You could argue that Ocelot persona is metaphora for Kojima himself?
Wrong
It's obviously Monsoon of the memes of destruction
Here's to you Venom 🥂
You served your boss faithfully, you were turned into a shadow or should I say phantom of Big Boss but you'll forever be remembered as our Big Boss.
Venom is YOU, the player. So you're raising a toast to yourself
The sadness of Venom reminds me of a quote from Richtofen, "I was the nicest one, and you won't even remember me." It's saddening to know that out of the two Big Bosses, the evil one was the "true" Big Boss, while the other (Venom) is the victim of Big Boss, Zero, everyone. And yet all he will ever be is Big Boss's shadow.
I WAS LITTERALY THINKING ABOUT THIS!
I mean i believe he was the one that built up the legend of Big boss and not the actual Big boss,but yeah Venom will always be the shadow of him and the True one got all the credits for things(Expect Mgs3 obv cuz all the credit goes to the True one there)
The closest to understanding The Boss' ideals, was in fact a pawn just like her.
Venom Snake, his sad story lingering like a poison throughout the rest of the story.
*phantom
Venom. What he went through was strait up insidious. No human should have ever gone through that. It left me shook for a while after beating the game.
Kaz really just trained solid snake to kill the wrong boss smh my head✋😤
the thing is just big boss and venom snake knew about intrude n313, so kaz never know about how venom killed.
You just said shaking my head my head
Shake my head, my head?
I am shaking my head, my head too 😤
I believe Venom is the better "Big Boss". For one he was MSF's best soldier and despite being a medic, so they had a excellent base to build on by implanting Naked Snakes memories and combat training. And the fact that he ended up having shrapnel in his skull, a arm missing, along with wearing a eyepatch and still can perform at the level he does says alot. And that's him getting out of a 9 year coma and had to build himself back up physically and hes soon combating squads of enhanced soldiers and can pin down Quiet, who has the strength to pick up and toss full grown men like it's nothing. Plus he's definitely a more compassionate Big Boss, and I think that has to do with his previous "life" as the medic in wanting to preserve life. In the beginning of the game he asked "Ishmael" what happened to the woman (Quiet), Ishmael (Naked Snake) did give a shit that he set her on fire and for all he knew, she died in the fall out of the window. Plus Venoms guilt on not finding that second bomb in Paz shows he cares about his fellow man where as Naked has long passed moved on about Paz. I just feel that Venom as a character, though doesn't speak much, has such a presence to him and that's a big part of Kiefer Sunderland voicing him. I know he voiced both Venom and the real Big Boss, but you spend a larger time with him as Venom that I associated him with that character. And no scene does the character justice more than when Venom and the remaining Diamond Dogs are about to pour the ashes of the fallen and he decides to use the ashes to make diamonds. He says those lines with such dignity, strength, and compassion, you feel the love he has for his men. Sorry for rambling, Venom is my favorite Snake. 😂
I agree venom was a great protag and technically a great antag in the original metal gear.
Definitely Venom, he left his life to become a ghost of a man. He went through alot of bullshit and still had to play the villain all the way till the end because it was his mission and promise to a man that was a following his own version of the Boss' legacy. I love this franchise, a story about the cycle of destiny.
Venom Snake is probably the superior warrior in terms of physical might. Between his prosthetic arm and the upgrades you can make to him, he's pretty much the precursor to the cyborg ninjas. He never had the same charisma as the original though, and isn't nearly as proactive. Building Diamond Dogs wouldn't have been possible without "Big Boss." If Big Boss and Venom and had ever come to blows, I'm certain Big Boss would've come out on top for the same reasons Solid defeated Liquid despite the differences in abilities.
Venom’s identity is not to be taken literally for analysis, only metaphorically, the ending was simply an evolution of “the player is Snake” concept Kojima had always pursued. There’s nothing reliable to take into consideration from it for the core canon, what was real and what wasn’t, how and what things actually happened, all that’s left for player interpretation, for each player to formulate their own “MGS Saga” sequence of events how they see it based on their experiences, thoughts and feelings. For all intents and purposes, Venom’s just Big Boss, nothing in the ending completely discredits Big Boss losing his mind. But let’s say you were to believe in the first MG boss being a mere medic, there’s still interesting discussion there, as the idea of soldier genes essentially gets turned on its head in favor of knowledge and life experience/memories (what was transferred over to Venom), which only furthers the theme of the Snakes never really being that special to begin with, at least not genetically. And right there people can look at that in 2 different ways, A. as a confirmation of BB losing his mind if they believe genetics are important, or B. as a twist that establishes what had long been hinted of genetics not really mattering as much.
While I don't disagree it's the most clever solution, I can't really say it's necessarily as clean as that. I think there's an extra ingredient in MGSV, which is the ambiguity of its own openess.
We mustn't forget that "we can't tell if anything in the story is real as you are Snake and you're not an impartial witness, so it's up to you to choose what to believe" was the final message of MGS2, which was supposed to be the last in the franchise. However, this message was poorly received by players at the time, and still largely is. While MGS2 is generally considered the most cerebral in the series, it's also considered the most pretentious. The audience hated not being "Solid Snake", the genetically enhanced mercenary and human military asset fundamentally tied (and perhaps destined) to black ops.
Hideo Kojima went out of his way to avoid and make light of the post-modern themes of MGS2 in MGS3. That's when a variety of guns, clothes, camouflage and the newly-introduced combat mechanic CQC were put in the spotlight. The story was an adaptation of the succesful "Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake" (I believe unreleased in the US at the time), which had spliced in the action and goofiness some deeper themes of anti-militarism, skepticism towards imperialist foreign policies and the psychology of the soldier, who needs to strip himself of his personal beliefs, preferences and perhaps even his humanity to turn in the flesh and bone weapon a soldier is intended to be; still, only dressing, a player could go through the entire game without putting much thought into it. The previous game was not so subtly mocked in Easter Eggs - Snake impersonating Major Ivan Raidenovich [son of Raiden] Raikov, a homosexual officer sexually abused by Col. Volgin; Snake jokingly mistaking the "Virtuous Mission" for "Virtual Mission"; numerous Secret Theater clips featuring Raiden in slapstick comedy.
Simply put, Kojima knew the message of MGS2 didn't resonate with the audience, who was instead enthralled with the action and the cheesy spy-flick plot of other installments and specially MGS3, although that didn't mean he couldn't add some philosophical themes.
I think that's something of a hint to not take MGSV for granted. The 4th wall breaking to equate the player with the silent protagonist, erasing the in-game identity and the objectivity of events to allow more divergent opinions was already the point of a game Kojima had made and that resulted in significant backlash. Would Kojima try the same trick that had already "failed" with large audiences again?
Well, maybe. It could induce a second level of 4th wall break, as the flabbergasted player would then experience in the flesh the negative emotions that conceptualize MGSV. Or it could be that Kojima felt the audience was more mature and willing to reconsider the themes of MGS2, a game that, although reviled, still has its own following, and, if I may say so myself, would be an accomplishment a great artist should be proud of.
However, I think we should also consider the possibility of an ambiguity of its own openess. That is, that MGSV could be purposely design to allow both the interpretations of audiences more willing to accept the PoMo themes of uncertainty as well as allow the interpretations of those willing to piece together a convoluted but somewhat concrete timeline - which opens the door for marathons of nitpicking like the extensive PythonSelkan analysis. The game could be interpreted literally enough so that the addition of a second "Big Boss" can retroactively impact the general timeline of the franchise, or at least tell another story based in iconography of that same timeline.
I still believe that venom is big boss
@@georgwisniewski4118 what i liked in MGSV was fusing two kinds of game protagonist, the determined, premade one, like Solid Snake, Dante etc. Prevalent in the past decades, and the player made one, very in fashion lately. And i can't ignore the comparisons with Fallout 4, wich fails at merging the 2 concepts.
I never even clocked onto the fact Big Boss can speak fluent Russian (it's been a long time since I've played MGS3), and that you need a translator in MGSV. When this game first came out, I hated it for all the obvious reason, but I've since gone back to it and avoided all the repetitive side-ops, just to play the essential story missions and listen to the tapes to get a more rounded opinion of the story, and I have a great appreciation for it now. The attention to detail is staggering, quite frankly, and the whole phantom mantra which is present throughout brings a lot of subversion -- but immersion -- to the table when you look into it. It's such a shame Mission 51 didn't get finished, because I think it would have concluded Liquid's arc, but rounded off Venom's story a little more satisfyingly as well.
This video is so well done. Perfect analisis of both Venom and Naked. If i need to pick one i would go with Venom. It would be one hell of a battle, the hardest one each one has faced.
But the reason why i pick Venom over Naked is for multiple facts like for example, he was one hell of a soldier when he was the medic. Big Boss himself picked him as his personal medic and Ocelot states in the tapes that he was the best soldier of MSF. After he got the therapy by Ocelot, he became even much better when thought he was Big Boss. And through the game we see him taking down Quiet, The Skulls, the man on fire, Sahelantropus and Psycho Mantis most powerful form. He also survived an entire wave of tanks and soldiers going at him at some point. And when it comes to CQC he has been shown to be able to CQC and overpower skulls and Quiet herself when they are eassily 4 times stronger than a regular human.
In any case it would be one hell of a battle. Thank you for this video.
I`d go with Venow too, also not sure but guess is a little bit younger.
I always admired BB, and making us believe BB was the only super soldier and no one would be as him and because of that they made clones of him, venom snake proved it that it's possible, he did almost all what the real BB did in a sort of period of time, he was a leader, he suffered the same pain as big boss but even more by shooting his own soldiers one by one(while BB did it ones) and i say almost all as BB except that venom wanted to end the cycle , the cycle which that is becoming another big boss , all began with the boss and snake eater, then big boss with venom snake, liquid and solid,the same case with solidus and raiden, i have to go with venom snake on this one, besides it took two BBosses to kill him, the mastermind of old big boss and the youth of solid snake.
When i was still young , the first metal gear game that i played was MGS3 , then the second one was Leace Walker , since then , BB was kinda like my idol , he's like the hero that we need and also deserved and i thought of how cool and badass BB is ,when i played ground zeroes , i was kinda mad because mother base was destroyed by skull face , chico , paz , cecile , and other s rank staff that i lost , i think BB would have had the same feelings as i do , then TPP came out , waking up in a hospital thinking where is kaz , and later on was escaping from volgin and quiet , at the end where venom is listening to the tape , i was shocked , realizing that the man that i've played wasn't the real BB at all , but then i thought , how depressing venom's life is , he finally met the love of his life , only to be taken away from him to save him , he was feeling guilt that he could have saved everyone including paz in ground zeroes's chopper if he could have found the other bomb , he was forced to live on the life he never wanted , and later on killed by a clone of his boss , but he just accepeted it all , because venom is loyal to 1 person , and that is BB .
Big Boss will always be my favourite character in the franchise , but we can't deny the fact that venom's life is the most depressing life in the franchise arguably the most in all games after solid snake
It was you - who was the Venom Snake, for until the end you stayed to Big Boss.
Venom is better. He did everything with a prosthetic arm and shrapnel in his skull.
Which the prosthetic arm actually gives him better abilities meaning big boss would be the underdog. Besides big boss could do everything venom did and much with much better results
@@brodude3868 incorrect
@@by2083 *facts
Crazy to think Venom was hated on after release. Now 5 years later, most people see him in a better light. Personally I always thought that he went the closest to achieving the Boss’s will before BB got his grubby little mitts on him.
I like to think that in the mirror scene, when Venom smashes it, that’s him expressing his disgust at finally realizing the real truth; BB used him all along and he was going to die for it. Everything he built up was for naught. He lost himself to the demon inside of him for following who he thought was his idle and friend.
Venom easily takes the win in my heart despite whoever would when an actual fight of rather not consider. Venom was a true warrior to his death big boss betrayed himself and his ideals.
As much as I love Big Boss, Boss uses Venom for a reason, to bear the brunt of his existence while he goes into hiding and builds Zanzibar. Boss steps away from the frontline and instead becomes a political ideology. Venom never leaves the battlefield. He spends the rest of his life in conflict in his outer heaven. It would stand to reason that Venom has all of Bosses experience and more with how he has to remain in conflict because of how he is the current embodiment of Bosses meme. Venom hands down
Judging from what I’ve just seen, if the two were to be faced against the other, I’d have to say Venom would win. Stated by the video, he’s more “ruthless” and has seemingly perfected CQC. Venom snake also took down a bipedal metal gear by himself that’s far superior to what the Big Boss had fought before. Venom just seems to have better feats of strength and ability than the person he’s impersonating. If Big Boss needed someone to take his place, Venom does more than a hell of a job at doing so.
I endorse your comment 👍
"Soldier", in the definition The Boss gave, would be a political tool. Someone carrying out the mission to the end with no regard for their own will. She specifically called Jack, a fighter rather than a soldier. Jack would never die being loyal to others that he will keep fighting. This is seen from the many times he himself turns his back on others for the sake of himself. Venom on the other hand fits The Boss' definition to the letter. Although unwilling he does discover for himself what he truly is and he accepted the fact and continues in his "role" because he's loyal to Big Boss and will not bring his own will into things.
At the end of TPP, Venom knew he was brainwashed. But he still stayed loyal to Big Boss.
I agreed with everything except your assessment of the positive/negative state of there minds. Venom was clearly more compassionate in overall more situations that what BB was; especially given the evidence that he was primarily a medic as his main skill; whereas BB was more vicious an ready to kill. An as for the evidence that Venom was more evil because of the infection on motherbase both would have done the same. As they soldiers were suffering to death slowly. Both would have ended there suffering. An using Hueys word means jack all shit! Huey was guttertrash human who was always looking out for #1 and was always looking for a leg up on others around him just to survive! He was an abusive minded man. Hell, look what he does later to Emma, an her mother for example, or what he did to Hals mom... nuff said on Huey. Also, the bit on Liquid from MGS1 cant be considered as 100% canonical now. As it may have been retconned with PP, as it is a later produced title. An at that time Kojima was trying to stretch out the franchise.
I think you are right with Venom. You can feel the bond and the emotions He has for his soldiers and what he is willing to do for them. I think about the low moral scene for example or the shining lights funeral. In the scene where his infected men are trying to get out and he tries to stop them, there is a short slowed down moment where you can see his face. Look at his eye(s). In this moment he realises what he had to do and it breaks his heart. You can feel the clonflict inside of him. No need for words or any explanation. I think this moment and the entire Mission in MGSV are brilliant.
The only thing bothers me,when venom get rescued from Jeep in dhekelia,and ocelot save the real bigboss and comeback to save venom snake,how long between that event before ocelot comeback to save venom again?,consider the sun are rising behind big boss when his escape with bike
I don't think the truth mission is 100% accurate...we're mostly seeing things the way Venom is remembering them and if his Paz hallucinations are any indication (With how he's remembering the events of Ground Zeroes), there is bound to be dependencies.
1 the ambulance crashes, ocelot takes BB to safety somewhere. 2 ocelot comes back for venom. 3 ocelot and venom run away from volgin and mantis during night, the bridge they were riding on get strucj by lightning and collapses, ocelot brings venom to the ship. 4 ocelot comes back to BB who had time to change clothes to give him new papers and a bike, in the background we see ruined bridge from earlier.
@@Observer413 nice catch bro!
Venom snake at the end of V, definitely.
Boss and Big Boss are fantastic warriors but they also had this bond with their soldiers (the cobras, foxhound, MSF) that pushed them to the next level. Big Boss loses that when he starts betraying his allies for his own goals. He snubbed the president for using Boss, but treats Kaz and Venom just the same.
Actual combat wise they have similar enough feats but Venom is only an A+ iirc statistically. Which is more badass, our hero defeats the bad guy and it's revealed he's the heir to the throne of badassery, or the hero defeats the bad guy and it turns out he was just some nobody who fought and trained and did it anyway because the "chosen one" was a proper cunt.
What do you mean by "using venom and kaz"
People dont seem to understand that big boss never wanted to use venom as a body double, he was in a fucking coma. It was zero's plan
Play the god damn game ffs
@@jarlboof
He was not talking about that. It is true Venoms idea was executed by Zero with the support of Ocelot and Naked never had any word on it. But what he is trying to say is that in the end, Big Boss selled both Venom and Kaz just like the goverment did with The Boss. Big Boss made Venom go through hell after the Phantom Pain incident, he was forced to become a demon in order to protect Big Boss on Zanzibar land. And even tho they never knew how good Solid waa, Venom ended up dying so Big Boss could still make his dream come true. Big Boss was the one who sended Solid there in the first place.
And as for Kaz, the after credits scene speaks for itself. Ocelot reveals that Naked never said anything to Kaz about the Phantom operation. Neither Zero or Ocelot told him to not reveal the operation to Miller, and he never said anything to him. He just dissapeared and left his friend to rot with all that hatred for revenge he had against XOF. Even tho i would say that after the events of Peace Walker, Kaz showed to not be 100% loyal to Naked after he reveals he knew paz and the professor all along. Yes, he did that for a good reason, but Naked saw that Kaz actually hided this info wich make him doubt his loyalty in the end. I cant blame him for that, but it is true that in the end, Big Boss sold both Venom and Kaz when the time came, hence why there is that track on MGSV The Man Who Sold the World.
@@warchiefvenomn7612 I have one thing to say about that though why did Big Boss leave those two photos for Venom that let him figure out his identity? They were kinda like a "the mission is a failure you're not who you think you are cut this bullshit right now!" Plus he still sent his best man to rescue and help Kaz and inform him via Ocelot so it's kinda debatable since we or more precisely Venom decided to go back and create his own version of Big Boss Jack did not decide that for us! And the same goes for the ending of Metal Gear 1 Venom choose to put down his gun (after giving David one hell of a fight) while Jack finally did so at the end of MGS4!
@@selemanecu
The photo scene is not what it seems. Big Boss giving the doctor those pics with Venoms real identity and looks was part of process of Hypno Therapy. When the effects of the therapy go off, what is the first thing Venom remembers? When he is in the hospital, and later on he sees that particular scene. The only person who knew who Venom really was in mother base, was Ocelot. Ocelot had hypno therapy as well to play his role perfectly, wich means, Ocelot would never reveal to Venom the truth about his real identity. They needed to show Venom his real face in the hospital, so when he finded out the truth, he knew he was not Big Boss, but his Phantom. And that is how it happens.
Also you are mistaken on the Big Boss part sending info to Venom through Ocelot. Ocelot took Hypno Therapy to see Venom as the real Big Boss. Jack was hidding the whole using Venoms real identity till the whole XOF fiasco finished. It was since this time when he contacted Ocelot and Venom and started their plan to build 2 mother bases with 2 Big Bosses on them. In the end, Jack used Venom, he took literally everything from him, including his own identity, and Venom was loyal till the end when he had the power and the face of the leyend to send his Outer Heaven against Zanzibar IF HE WANTED revenge against Jack. Venom was a true soldier and despite realizing the sad truth, he followed Big Boss orders and die for it. No matter how you see it, Jack was the man who sold the world and used those close to him like the US goverment did with him in Snake Eater.
Also don’t forget he chose to keep quiet alive. There are moments where the hood venom, out weighs the villain big boss.
Edit: he chooses to go after her.
All along the way, he follows the kind hearted choices of ocelot opposed to Kaz’s ruthless and evil desires.
The only thing I disagree on was Venom's supposed 'brutality.' I took him asking the question to silence Paz as simply being the fact that his memories of her were lacking. But the PTSD side content with her in the game showed he had a deep regret for letting her die, not just from Boss's memories, but from Medic's own failure to remove both bombs. These memories returning only after finding all the pictures, so at that point, he probably wouldn't have asked 'Should we silence her.' Venom has showed both kindness and compassion to his men on Mother Base when morale is low, and sparing Liquid's life and telling him that one shouldn't turn their weapons on family and allies. Not to mention he knew Quiet was the one who tried to murder him SEVERAL times, yet he let her go and even saved her life all while growing to care for her deeply. Shooting his men wasn't just brutality, it really was the only thing he could do for them at the time. That was certainly a moment that broke him to become a villain later, but before all that, he was emulating Big Boss much more accurately than one would think.
MGs 3 was my first metal hear game, so I’m biased towards BB. But I have to go with venom being a better soldier. During the phantom pain incident we see him cqc against skulls and win, he beats the man on fire, sehelanthropus, and psycho mantis. Even when he was a medic in MSF ocelot said he was the best soldier they had. And he got far better once he became venom.
It's Venom. He's really a soldier's soldier. He isn't nearly as charismatic as Big Boss, who is largely a better political figure, but he is a better leader of men. I think that's why they took on the roles they did. Venom was meant to fight while Big Boss built his nation and handled the political nuances. One is the brain, and the other is the muscle.
This video was very interesting well done. So happy to see people keeping metal gear alive with great content like this.
Venom snake has a really sad story. His identity was taken. He turned from a medic to a fucking commander, he had to kill so many people that did nothing to him directly. And quiet, the only chance of him having innocence in the world left him. And I’m the end he had to be killed by someone who thought he was truly big boss…
I think that Big Boss is the superior fighter, but Venom is a better Big Boss, more mild, kind, and more benevolent.
Don't understand how you guys don't work for Konami yet. You breath the essence of MGS with you editing style, and outside of members of team Kojima are some of the most indoctrinated to the lore.
You mean kojima?
They wouldn't want to Work for konami
Venom Snake changed my life 🙌🏾🙏🏾
If there really was a process to experience Big Boss's memories while in an induced coma, and pick up most of his skills, I would totally sign up for it. Awesome video. Liked and subscribed
I feel so heartwrenched whenever a sad OST pops up, all those memories man...
Big Boss was the better fighter, Venom was the better soldier. Venom never forgot to look after his men, refused to use child soldiers and fought to end the fighting. In a gun fight, Venom is the man I would want by my side.
Big Boss for sure without big boss, Venom wouldn't of been created. i hope they come out with a new metal gear with the story begins with ocelot leaves big boss after the hospital finds grey fox and naomi saves them finds sniper wolf and have it end with leading up to Metal Gear 1
no venom no solid snake, both big boss and venom are important.
Michael M Big Boss is the Ultimate Soldier,all the things Venom Snake did happened because he was being psychologically trained to think he was Big Boss,Naked Snake Says that Venom Snake was a pretty good soldier but he was a medic,support for harmed soldiers.
With the psychologically training Venom Snake was able to do everything he did,because otherwise he will feel like he was not the best,like new soldiers feel.
It's not gonna happen, Hideo Kojima was fired from the Konami quite a while ago now
Venom is the real boss. I’ll die on that hill, Big Boss was a coward. ‘People will come after you, boss’ is the reason ocelot gives, so what do they scheme up but to turn you into the boss, a red herring, a false idol that people can both rally around, and point their guns at while the “real” big boss lays low.
But as it turns out, you’re pretty good.
Not just pretty good, really good, so good that you build the kingdom Big Boss fought so hard for, YOU, not big boss.
You’re the hero, always have been.
Jack, Big Boss, is just the best man. He is hated by many and that is the genius behind Hideo. He is hated by us just like the boss, on of America's heroes, is hated by the public because they have been given a made up story. Big Boss was shown to us as a bad guy that made this or that, but i genuinely think if people go and watch the ending of MGS4, you ll see how much of a good person he is and what he did for others.
He only changed in metal gear 4. He did with Venom what the government did to the big boss.
Big Boss realized what he had done.
@@animeshnickl6674 How is that so when Venom literally signed up for it and Big Boss told his soldiers everything about what kind of things they ll be doing. If you need to be reminded, watch the ending of GZ and look at Big boss and how he stays last to defend his soldiers and chopper.
The title question is odd being as though every snake is a wannabe of big boss
Except Solid Snake, he is the true hero of the series.
I believe every snakes are wannabe of the boss. Cause big boss is also a snake. He is naked snake.
This video was 10/10 and I am really really glad you made it.
Venom +1. I don't think Venom had any issue about being used like he was in the end. He was proud to serve from the beginning IMO. Just doing his duty for the boss....something no other character has done unequivocally.
No, he isn't BB technically, but V still scores mad points for his sacrifice. Remember...He stepped into the blast even before the transformation
I identify myself more with venom snake, because I have the same arm missing.
Venom rocks, I'd pick him surely, guy has a brutal CQC.
Big boss cqc is better
@@brodude3868 You tell that bitch 'Naked Snake' to say that to my face. We'll see what happens.....
I wonder if The Boss was modeled after young David Bowie.
As far as I know she was. Kojima is a huge David Bowie fan.
There's loads of Bowie references in MGS games.
In fact, at the end of MGS3, Kojima wanted to use the Bowie song, "Ground Control to Major Tom" (I don't know the actual song title) but they used "Way To Fall" instead. I could be wrong on this next bit, but, I think they wanted Major Zero to be known as Major Tom... if anyone can shed some light on that better than I can, please do.
It's been a long time since I've played any MGS titles; my knowledge is pretty rusty.
Actually Snake Pliskin
@@TitanHammer1776 that song would be space oddity, that's a line in the song
@@ssus "'the boss" is supposedly based on David Bowie and "big boss" is based on snake plisken.
@@TitanHammer1776
Major Tom is zero's code name for virtuous mission
amazing video, can’t believe i didn’t find it sooner. good job!
I still come back to this video every other month, absolutely awesome research and editing! Thankyou PythonSelkan for your dedication
Thank you so much for the kind feedback! Means a lot 😀🐍
- P&S
Damn..people really forgot about peace walker do they... Big Boss fighting all those metal gears and those t-rexes
Funnily enough Venoms feats throughout the game were more impressive than Naked Snake’s in MGS 3. The Big Boss legend was started by naked, but was truly built up into a mythological hero by Venom. He did all that with a bionic arm, shrapnel stuck in his brain, a blinded eye, and way more emotional baggage and PTSD than big boss.
Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, and Solidus Snake had the benefit of being actual clones of Big Boss, inheriting his genes.
Venom snake doesn't even have that as he isn't an flesh and blood clone like they are and yet he still became so formidable just by merely becoming Big Boss instead literally being born to be like him. I find that alone to be impressive and something just so special about Venom.
This content is insane! Makes me want to replay the entire series again
I clicked on the video expecting a normal comparison, but I really liked how it was more of laying the facts on you for you to decide yourself. Not to mention the incredible quality.
thats the problem w/ MGSV, I have trouble seeing Venom as a own character in that sense that he is a mix between BB and the player. He talks so little and i get why but thats exactly the problem again. Yes his story is tragic but I say it again its been talked to death at this point but He is not me, never will be. period. So I go with BB of course.
@Ridiculed Victor yeah I know all that. its mainly the way its presented. open world also played a huge part in watering down the story and presentation big time. and thats the main thing im interested when playing an MGS game. the concept was half backed and the cut content did the res EDIT: Super Bumnyhop's vid on MGSV described it best imo
I feel like his quietness had more to do with Kiefer Sutherland being tougher and more expensive to schedule than the old guy.
@@justinw3161 no kojima stated that the reason he barely talks or asks certain questions is what the player thinks and/or wants to know at the moment. the body of the medic, and we as the player are his overwritten mental state (having witnessed all events and know the lore etc.) but ingame it is ocelots mindtraining and in case of its a new Player who cant fill the void, the ocelot briefing tapes are there. in the end its an interesting concept and the truth tapes fill in gaps perfectly in terms of explaining and are very well written(to well actually that I would have loved to see cutscenes but we are only witnessing what venom does so everything kinda fails in execution/presentation and bcs of that he fails in the character departement. I would have loved to see building up outer heaven in South Africa then another Mother Base. and all bcs all mgs games are only play in a specific year except for mgs 2 but you get the gist ✌
@Ridiculed Victor I'm not sure about that.
Big boss saved the world how many times?
Snake Eater
Peace Walker
Guns Patriots( killing zero and explain to solid that he was being used the whole time to fight against Big Boss)
He was put in a bad position because of Kaz and Huey. Kaz was greedy and Huey was a rat that set them all up. Big Boss went off too create his vision against his own wishes and while he did that his story grew. Not to mention before Venom, Big Boss was already a ledgend. Saving Grey Fox, Sniper Wolf and other child soliders. Venom was a walking shadow but Big Boss is his point of origin. With that being said having the same mind and experience there's nothing that Venom did that Big Boss couldn't.
Was it ever stated that Venom didn't deviate from the plan that Big Boss had in motion?
@Ridiculed Victor you just listed what big boss is known for except you simply replaced the list with MGS V accomplishments.
Metal Gear Zeke - Big Boss
Outer heaven/Zanzibar Land - Big Boss (Big Boss planned outer heaven in order to get rid of Solid Snake)
Feared by international leaders - Big Boss (MSF put Big Boss on the radar)
Defeating XOF isn't even an achievement. They were nothing but a bunch of rookies in front of diamond dogs and MSF. They only reason why they were threatening was because of the wolbachia and nobody in the world even knew it existed.
Very amazing video but sadly I started my Metal Gear journey with Phantom Pain so I feel Venom as my first Snake.
Same.
Despite Venom being so badass and powerful, it all came from Big Boss' knowledge, experience, and memories. Being the best soldier in MSF wouldn't be enough to do what he had to with Diamond Dogs and Cipher. Venom Snake needed Naked Snake to become "Big Boss".
Solid Snake's will made him surpass everything, even his own dying body in MGS4. But his CQC training and physical abilities also came from Naked Snake. Revolver Ocelot thought of Solidus Snake as a physical copy of Big Boss but it's in Solid Snake that he really saw his old friend.
Naked Snake is the one, the one Zero tried to copy many times.
Venom, Solid, Solidus, and Liquid all became powerful in their own way thanks to something they got from Naked Snake.
Naked Snake is the ultimate soldier.
both are amazing but there's something extra special about venom, his loyalty inspires!!
If Metal Gear Solid were a poem, Punished Venom Snake would be the Golden Key to understand it.
We, as Raiden, were trained to fight, to infiltrate. We are the kids taught by simulations. As Punished Venom Snake, we put those skills to test; we are the kids fighting proxy wars that are not ours to fight.
After years of brainwashing, we materialise in the world of MGS to take on the mantle of Big Boss and do the things he wouldn’t have the capability of doing; because of his already established character. This is why Naked acted in such a coward way: betraying indirectly and abandoning his fellow men. Jack is an enlarged legend, inflated by the skills we allowed him to have while animating him.
But even that has a limit.
Without us - the anima and genius of Big Boss - there is no START GAME, there are no operations or infiltrations. Zero noticed after creating Big Boss that, at some point, Jack himself wouldn’t be enough because he can’t break his own logic and personality to do what was needed for the plan (the creation of a New World, the breeding of a new generation of soldiers, the control of information; all which needed the public to be distracted during the 1980’s in order for Zero to pull his strings AND the overcoming of his only failed calculation: Skull Face) to succeed.
Zero wouldn’t let Jack’s limitations/the horrible things Jack was supposed to do stain the legend he had revealed. I say revealed because Zero noticed the legend (Big Boss, but in this sense, the genius which oriented him) already existed; it just needed to be triggered/prompted into motion; which Zero did with Operation Snake Eater. Again, Jack would have his limitations at one point. That’s why Venom is blank: he’s built exclusively to be a vessel for us (the actual legend in the form of strength, speed and fury; the genius) to animate; a mean to unleash all of our power. Venom NEEDS to be anyone of us while replicating Boss, but with enough room for the differences pointed out in the video between [Venom] and [Naked] AND between [Player] and [Venom]; the small touches to his personality, which is, in the end, ours.
Venom was the toughest because he didn’t have genes, nor special powers or moral qualms. Hell, he had less limbs than most characters. Venom’s limitations are ultimately what made him furiously mighty; he is a blank vessel for our will in its purest form.
Venom adapts to do what others won’t, and that is why he’s cursed and punished. Venom is our genius animated, and we are savage geniuses, doing whatever we need. That is why we are lectured by Emmerich for killing our men; not just because we killed DD’s men, but because we killed EVERYONE in MGS. Everyone is a part of the game, of the construct that acts as our reality, and while Jack wouldn’t kill them; we would, given the chance. And we did so in the opportunities we had and in times of need. And we’d do it again if we had the chance.
Jack noticed it in 1974, when he foolishly thought he could rid himself of and ultimately defeat Major Oh. He knew he couldn’t push much further without more of the strength his anima provided, for he wasn’t the same soldier anymore; and he knew he wasn’t the adequate vessel, for what he had to do was never within his reach, such as murdering someone who got inside his head, like Paz. He did murder the Boss, but that was already the last droplet needed to show Jack how weak and wicked he truly were.
With that in mind, Jack thought he was outsmarting Zero by, later on in 1984, doing what Zero had already planned for him: the creation of his phantom, his boogey-man. The war criminal, the legend of the battlefield. The blank soldier, of the blank force; as ghostly as Cypher; as legendary as himself. The one which would actually carry the legacy on both ends, as a hero and a demon; while the Jack hid in the shadows, scheming. But it all has a price.
Because of all we did in previous MGS and specially in MGSV, Venom is punished. Venom is tossed into the worst combat zones in the 1980’s, our own personal Hell. We are paying for the legend, and for our sins, because there is no Father without the player; so the sins the Father commits are the player’s too. That is why the punishment (the game and its challenges; the grinding; the awkward return of characters we hold dear) feels so alien; that is why we have phantom pain, a delayed, bleak version of the past (MGS series), the past that comes to nail down the future’s (MGS IV) coffin: we are being punished and blamed solely for the sins Jack used our strength to commit, and then got away from, because Zero protects him. Little did they knew it would all come down to 0, in 2014.
We are being punished by Zero, because we animated Jack, Zero’s legend; we did everything needed, and now we’re no longer needed. We are the first piece of the domino that sets Zero’s plan in motion, we are the cause of all the misfortune and war; and we are the last domino to fall (MGSV).
Because of the sins we, as Venom, the demon, committed, and the strength we showed, Venom had to be forgotten; the genius of the legend had to be overshadowed by the legend, otherwise it would grow out of proportion, like a cancer, and disrupt the narrative. Venom himself can only live as long as Zero allows him to; but we won’t scatter his sorrow to the heartless sea. Just like he won’t with his men.
Zero (Hideo Kojima) had the game rigged from the start.
Still, we fight.
In Afghanistan, in Congo. We fight for Venom is Legion, and we are many.
We fight, for we are Diamond Dogs.
Editing and information was superb. Great job. You deserve to know that 💯
This is such an excellently put together video oh my god, it feels like a military file tape or a documentary, such a good atmosphere
"I don't care who you are, you will always be big boss"
-some random solder I saved in the battel field.
17:35 When faced with a contradiction reassess your premise. Big Boss is kind and compassionate? Big Boss *was* kind and compassionate. I'd go further and say this is what Venom Snake struggles with throughout his actions.
I Love your videos man, they fill the sense of emptiness in this now Metal Gear-less world
I’d say Big Boss. Him being trained directly by the Boss, but also the experience he gained after snake eater during his “legendary hero” days give him the edge in my eyes. Venom is close though
Isn't it interesting how in the last MGS4 boss fight, Liquid has a devastating cross? It's a nice little detail that connects MGS4 and MGSV:TPP. The Liquid "psyche" having been hit by Venom's bionic arm, Ocelot seeing it work first hand, then when Liquid Ocelot goes on to fight Old Snake, he has that similar bionic arm punch. Also, notice that Venom broke Liquid's right arm, the same side that Liquid Ocelot has a bio-prosthetic arm on. A series of homages crossing games and timelines.
You play as the real big boss in ground zero. he's the first one we see having used the fast & aggressive CQC so venom can't take credit for creating that style of CQC.11:30
this video....kept us waiting.
11:12 Ocelot: hey!, be careful with that arm!, it might be of use later!
I think Venom ends up surpassing Big Boss if you think about it, Big Boss goes to make FOXHOUND so he's a trainer and top ranking officer, Venom is not only managing Outer Heaven but going on missions and going to war, from the ending where he's become blood drenched and essentially a demon he has killed thousands in combat on his own likely still choosing other soldiers on the battlefield to join Outer Heaven and since the intro said they're an endless war Venom is doing this on a daily basis meaning he his always honing his skills. And in MG1 compared 2 technically Solid Snake had all his equipment to fight Venom while in MG2 Snake used a makeshift flamethrower from aerosol and a lighter, so retrospectively it took an entire fully equipped Solid Snake to defeat Venom, it took snake a quick makeshift weapon for Big Boss
I'd also say Venom ironically understood The Boss better than Big Boss as they both end up on a similar path that brands them as war criminals and evil, despite the intention being good; The Boss knew what was going to happen after the Virtuous mission failed and she'd have to be branded as a traitor to save the US and the world from nuclear war, willingly going down in history as a traitor and the one who almost brought World War 3 and getting killed by Naked Snake who would become a hero Big Boss. Venom Snake, though forced down this path because of brain washing, Ocelot said it the best he was willing to sacrifice himself for the legend and so if given the choice he'd likely would go along with it, either way Venom is willing to become a war criminal with his original identity be forgotten and knowingly accepts that should he die he will become a phantom in history. Venom understood what The Boss meant and was loyal to his men which is why it was so hard for him to pull the trigger on the infected men and why if a solider pulls out a knife on a fellow comrade he takes it personally to the point of stabbing himself or feeling guilt for Paz's death, if anything Big Boss did essentially betray us by letting Skull Face get away only to be dealt with by Venom meaning all the soldiers lost in the original mother base didn't actually mean much to Big Boss, while to someone like the medic/Venom it meant the world and family.
After Solid Snake, Venom is my second favorite just because of how tragic his tale is, and in the end when Big Boss reveals the truth i really did feel like it was a huge betrayal just like Miller said, his redemption being at the end of MGS4 by going back on what he thought of Solid and instead of seeing him as just a bundle of cells actually does a 180 and embraces him as a son or brother, signaling how he accepts how he was wrong.
Honestly i like better venom. Such a gentleman, fucking love the dude
Big Boss has a big place in my heart but Venom won the first place for me i like him a lot also they even say in the game tapes that he was just as good as Big Boss that's why they chose him to be his shadow
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Love the idea of this video, keep it up brothers!
Yo i was thinking the part you guys mentioned about venom CQC being better than BBs CQC, and it makes a lot of sense, i always remember that liquids CQC was way better than solids one, and that just it!!! It was because liquid was train from venom snake in the mother base... makes sense right
Liquid always mentioned he learn CQC from the best (big boss) but he never knew it was from venom snake .
You are forgetting one major thing. Solidus was active during the 80's as well, he was training war children, contributing to the legend... but also flaming his villainous image. I'm also curious as to where Frank fits in all of this. Was he found by BB or did he look for him? I leave that for your next video. You guys never disappoint. ~ShadowSnake out
This is truly amazing thank you for explaining the history of my dad (VENOM SNAKE)
Oh yea one more thing....11:20 - 11:40
If you think about it. Big Boss was trained by The Boss, who was the best soldier the world had ever seen. Whom then defeated The Boss herself.
Yet Venom was a nobody medic, who believed he was Big Boss - and yet fought, killed, sneaked and strategized in a manner superior to Big Boss himself (as far as the games showed). All under the belief he was Big Boss, thus gaining that combat experience afterwards and thus surpassing Big Boss. In my opinion. I love Big Boss, but what Venom accomplished in the world of MGS, is truly legendary in itself. Hence why “we are both Big Boss”.
The best characters:
Venom snake
Solid snake
Otacon
Ocelot
Venom was world greatest soldier...but history didn't teach you that
Many people that says Solid, but to me Solid was an experiment of genetics, a tool created to satisfy the need of Big Boss skills, but controlled, as Big Boss says in the truth, Solid as Liquid are the result of a sick experiment, Big Boss was considered "traitor" cause he left USA interests and follow his own, he was a human being after all, and was betrayed a played by the USA. Solid was a clone that was used as a pawn who could never saw beyond the missions and instructions given, Big Boss saw the difference at the end of MGS3, that he was a pawn of the government, and decided not be anymore, he decided his own way apart from governments, to me Big Boss is the ultimate soldier but as the end MGSV says Big Boss are both Venom and Naked Snake, Solid was the weapon developed in a lab used against Big Boss, just my opinion
Solid Snake stopped being a tool after Mgs1, he then created his own ONG along with Otacon
@@idontwant2beasoldiermama241 But Solid still ended up being a Patriot stooge in a roundabout way. While not helping the Patriots in MGS2, he did in MGS4 without realizing it; Ocelot's ridiculously convoluted plan was to dismantle the Patriots, kill Zero, and resurrect Big Boss. Everything else was secondary. "Enemy of my enemy," I suppose.
It's one thing to carry the whole world on your shoulders, it's another to carry the world that wasn't even yours to begin with.
You are the best guys. I've bee following your works since your first theoris about Gray Fox = Venon Snake. All yours videos are the best. Thank you kindly. You make me excited every time you make an analysis about my childhoods hero. Thank.
I vote for Venon Snake as most skilled soldier.
Venom is infinitely better because he can move when aiming in first person mode
Man, what a research! That's why I love this franchise and Phantom Pain in special and yeah... Venom Snake is better.
Big Boss then Solid Snake is the Ultimate Soldier.
Big Boss and Venom Snake are like Solid Snake and Raiden.
The ability of Big Boss was immense, his ability to lead and his fame is not a trick...it is real....just like Venom's.
This theory prove one thing: Cipher wants a army of ultimate soldiers but 9 years was to much.
It is the same cycle over and over again.
Venom has gone through pretty much the same experience as Big Boss alright, but what makes him better in my eyes is his physical abilities. First, he doesn’t have the body of Big Boss, meaning his size/weight/muscle mass differs from Big Boss. Explaining why his CQC is more agressive. Second, you can see the difference in speed between GZ and TPP (well at least I have the impression of). Venom runs faster, hits harder and faster. I also noticed a difference in volume when bones are cracked (I never touched my volume settings). Venom is also more ruthless in his methods, if it saves millions, he won’t hesitate in killing his own men, even if he’ll regret it for the rest of his life, the diamond as a reminder. Venom is also probably younger than Big Boss, so we can say he can catch his breath more easily. The only weakness Venom has is his horn, we’ve seen the effects of a little shock in episode 51, but a harder strike can result in permanent brain damage. My money still goes to Venom anyway. Whoever he is, he’s always my C.O.
Great video imo it’s big boss, keep up the great work!
we all know that solid snake is the ultimate soldier. He beat Venom Snake, He beat Big Boss, He beat Frank Jaeger (Gray Fox) who was the best soldier in Big Boss Foxhound Unit, He beat Liquid who was the one with the dominant genes of Big Boss and He defeated ocelot the greatest antagonist and co-protagonist of the entire saga.
Yeah Solid Snake was very lucky. He didn’t face Venom Snake in his prime 1984
Wow. Gentlemen, I loved it, my pick is Solid Snake, there would be no solid without Big, and The Phantom would have lived on, but along came a Solid Snake to re-Write the past,
a soldier who had no future, and experiment gone rouge.
loved this video too the good times, my friends cheers. thanks for keeping me up on the wall of fame, means a ton to me.
I just realised, "Mother of Special Forces" and "Militaries Sans Frontiers" are both MSF
did a in-game comparison of GZ Big Boss and TPP venom's CQC, they have same moves, but Big Boss's CQC effect is stronger, can throw enemy faster and can stun them longer. especially the CQC combo, leads to a 31min stun, and the opponent will burst out blood on the final hit, while TPP venom 's cqc combo is a 9 min stun, and opponent won't bleed. another thing is that Big Boss can pick a lock within 2.5 s, while Venom's best record is 3.3 s, as for consecutive cqc, GZ Big Boss can throw enemies endlessly one after another, while venom has a limitation of up to 4 enemies then the combo will break. judging by the fact that GZ's bleed effect of cqc combo got deleted in TPP, can assume that Kojima deliberately made the difference between Big Boss and Venom Snake, normally what looks like a more impactful visual design(blood bursting) will be copy pasted from prologue GZ to main game TPP, but instead of keeping it , they deleted it, makes you wonder why
also , under the condition that those differences are purposely made by Kojima, then they prove that Big Boss is the superior hand to hand fighter, and a little bit more efficient in some aspects as an agent, lock picking, ladder descending, etc, As for Venom's bionic arm features, I think some of its powers are not cannon, like the thunder summoning and teleportation, if Venom can pull those off, then Solid Snake in MG1 won't stand a chance against him.
I’ve spent over 400 or more hours on MGSV: TPP on the Xbox 360, Xbox One, and PS4. Personally I think that Venom is a wee bit more of a hardcore dude than the true Big Boss because we discover that John had XOF making sure that his mission (MGS 3: Snake Eater) was a success, and that The Boss (and her then-young son) helped him as well. During the events of TPP Venom did not have that support. He had Diamond Dogs, sure, but when it boils down to it he was alone.
Venom gets the slight edge in my book. I’ve not played Peace Walker so I don’t know what all John did during that one, so I’m gonna just have to give the tie-breaker to Venom.
I am Venom Snake therefore, I am the greatest warrior
He is two of us together
Venom's CQC the same as or better than Big Boss, received Big Boss' combat experience through hypnosis, and weakened body because of coma? After a pretty long rehabilitation, he recovered his body and strength. His body and strength are just like it was in Peace Walker, and wore a bionic arm makes him stronger. Also, Venom making Solid Snake inevitably use a rocket launcher. Big Boss of Peace Walker is God. But Venom is better, as you guys can see in TPP. Although he only appeared in two games so Venom couldn't show a lot of scenes and battles to the players than other characters. Venom may not be the best 'soldier' in Metal Gear Solid. But the fact that Venom is the strongest 'human' and strongest Snake in Metal Gear Solid cannot be denied.
I kinda wonder how exactly they were able to give Venom the memories and experiences of Big Boss. I know they said some kind of hypnotism but how the heck do you implant memories?
15:31 I like how u put both of them it just looks dope with both of them side by side
Keep those vids coming guys! Love the content you upload. Just wish you had more MGS games on the way to analyze.
I think they’d be equal on a fight, venom has the arm, BB is the original. Though I believe neither would truly win both would come out either changed or dead.
Crazy to think that the shrapnel in his forehead was an actual plot device.
Thanks for the video bros! I just can't decide. All I know is that I miss anything new MGS related. Have a nice weekend. 👍