Focusing so much on the Disarm sequencing is kind of misleading. The Path might not be the perfect answer, but in most games it'll be good enough: Path Tetsuo in response to the Embercleave's ETB trigger and it won't have been attached when the game checks last known information. Yes, Any will still get the trigger, but as it resolves it'll only see the Bone Splitter and presumably that's not what she wanted.
Another note about niche removal spells: if Nick were to cast Blastfire Bolt at any point along this stack, he would get his desired result (short of Amy using a removal spell herself). This is because while Blastfire Bolt does deal lethal damage to Tetsuo before it destroys the equipment, Tetsuo "sticks around" until the spell is finished resolving, while the equipment are sent to the graveyard during the resolution of the spell. By the time state based actions are checked, Tetsuo is already equipmentless, so when he dies due to state based actions, his last known information will be having nothing equipped.
@@SpitefulAZ Yes Bonesplitter is attached when Testsuo attacks, and then Amy casts Embercleave in response to the trigger. When it ETBs, Embercleave has a trigger to attach. In response to that trigger, Nick casts Path targeting Tetsuo. When the original Attack trigger resolves, the game will see 1 Equipment(Bonesplitter) Attached to Tetsuo and only deal 1 Damage.
Nick could use a removal spell to stop Tetsuo benefitting from Embercleave just fine. He can cast it while Embercleave is on the stack and he can cast it in response to the triggered ability that would attach Embercleave to Tetsuo. However, in this case, Amy would still be able to resolve Tetsuo's ability for mana value 1, due to Bonespiltter.
@@thedanath This is true, but assuming Amy is playing blue (since she played Tetsuo), it's probably not wise to cast a removal spell into 5 open mana, as she could be representing a counterspell.
@@tacobell2009 Depends how many creatures are attacking with Tetsuo. If its just Tetsuo attacking then Amy wont have enough mana to counter the removal and play Embercleave. So ether way Emberclave at least on that turn wont get into play.
I always forget about “last known information” rulings and I think back and wonder if there were games in my past that I would’ve won if I had known that ruling better.
Great work again! :) Did I miss something in the video or did you only talked about Nick playing the removal spell after the embercleave was already on Tetsuo? Because Nick could also choose to remove Tetsuo with the Embercleave still on the stack (or the etb-trigger, both works). Then there is only the small equipment on Tetsuo and its not such a blowout like when Embercleace is on Tetsuo, when he is removed. :)
Yeah, he spent a lot of time talking about the Disarm situation and glossed right past the actual best play in the sequence. Kill Tetsuo with the Embercleave attach trigger on the stack so Amy can't choose a different attacking creature to target with it, and deal with the 1 damage / 1MV spell from the Tetsuo trigger.
I did a long form video a couple years ago here: th-cam.com/video/BpiYn1kj8-c/w-d-xo.html Also, there are a lot of LKI videos in my "resolving a spell" playlist.
I have some doubt about the apppication of the second part of 608.2g and why removing Tetsuo before the resolution of his trigger ability doesn't stops it from resolving. In first, removing Tetsuo isn't enogh to stops the second check of the interving if clause to see if the condition still is true, since Tetsuo is no longer on the field? In second, the specific object information required by Tetsuo's ability isn't conditioned by a previous game infomation check? I say that because the Tetsuo's ability doesn't determite which object that will be used as parameter to check for the "information from specific object" that the ability needs for resolve (the mana value of the parameter object itself). To define the object of parameter, the ability uses a game information, which is the highest mana value between the equipaments attached to Tetsuo at the moment of ability resolves. Its diferent, for exemple, of a Murderous Redcap trigger ability. His trigger ability already defines which object will be the parameter to check the information from a specific object that the ability needs, that is itself. In that case, I agree with the application of LKI, and check for the attack of Murderous Redcap when he was on the field, if he's removed before the resolution of his trigger ability, but that situation is not the same of the Tetsuo's ability. That said, once I removed Tetsuo before his ability's resolve, it will not have any equipaments attached to him. So, isn't right to conclude that removing Tetsuo in this point is enogh to stops the effects of his trigger ability to occuor, since his ability needs a game information that no longer exist to define which parameter will be used to check the informatiom from a specific object that the ability needs for resolve? Idk if you understood my question. My english sucks! Sorry about that!
That is incorrect. Bolded parts are important to this situation. 608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. *If the effect requires information from a specific object,* including the source of the ability itself, *the effect uses the current information of that object* if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, *or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information.* See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists-or as it most recently existed-that does it, not the ability.
Hi, can someone help a newbie out? Say I have 4 Gloomdrifters and 4 other cards in the graveyard. I cast Balthor the Defiled and activate his ability. What will happen?
All four Gloomdrifters are put onto the battlefield at the same time. Then the game checks to see if any triggered abilities trigger. Except by this time, none of the Gloomdrifters have any triggered abilities, since their controller doesn't have threshhold by this point.
The consistency more stable than rules
Focusing so much on the Disarm sequencing is kind of misleading. The Path might not be the perfect answer, but in most games it'll be good enough: Path Tetsuo in response to the Embercleave's ETB trigger and it won't have been attached when the game checks last known information. Yes, Any will still get the trigger, but as it resolves it'll only see the Bone Splitter and presumably that's not what she wanted.
Another note about niche removal spells: if Nick were to cast Blastfire Bolt at any point along this stack, he would get his desired result (short of Amy using a removal spell herself). This is because while Blastfire Bolt does deal lethal damage to Tetsuo before it destroys the equipment, Tetsuo "sticks around" until the spell is finished resolving, while the equipment are sent to the graveyard during the resolution of the spell. By the time state based actions are checked, Tetsuo is already equipmentless, so when he dies due to state based actions, his last known information will be having nothing equipped.
If Nick responds to the Embercleave trigger with Path to Exile, then the Tetsuo's trigger will not see the Embercleave attached.
But it would already be equipped by something else if the trigger was already on the stack.
@@SpitefulAZ Yes Bonesplitter is attached when Testsuo attacks, and then Amy casts Embercleave in response to the trigger. When it ETBs, Embercleave has a trigger to attach. In response to that trigger, Nick casts Path targeting Tetsuo. When the original Attack trigger resolves, the game will see 1 Equipment(Bonesplitter) Attached to Tetsuo and only deal 1 Damage.
@@franchello1105 good play for Nick.
Nick could use a removal spell to stop Tetsuo benefitting from Embercleave just fine. He can cast it while Embercleave is on the stack and he can cast it in response to the triggered ability that would attach Embercleave to Tetsuo. However, in this case, Amy would still be able to resolve Tetsuo's ability for mana value 1, due to Bonespiltter.
Nick could just remove Tetsuo on the declare attackers step as well. As Nick could theorize that Amy has something to play if she left 5 mana up.
@@thedanath This is true, but assuming Amy is playing blue (since she played Tetsuo), it's probably not wise to cast a removal spell into 5 open mana, as she could be representing a counterspell.
@@tacobell2009 Depends how many creatures are attacking with Tetsuo. If its just Tetsuo attacking then Amy wont have enough mana to counter the removal and play Embercleave. So ether way Emberclave at least on that turn wont get into play.
Thanks for answering my question! I’m glad it works the way I had hoped
I always forget about “last known information” rulings and I think back and wonder if there were games in my past that I would’ve won if I had known that ruling better.
Great work again! :)
Did I miss something in the video or did you only talked about Nick playing the removal spell after the embercleave was already on Tetsuo?
Because Nick could also choose to remove Tetsuo with the Embercleave still on the stack (or the etb-trigger, both works). Then there is only the small equipment on Tetsuo and its not such a blowout like when Embercleace is on Tetsuo, when he is removed. :)
Yeah, he spent a lot of time talking about the Disarm situation and glossed right past the actual best play in the sequence. Kill Tetsuo with the Embercleave attach trigger on the stack so Amy can't choose a different attacking creature to target with it, and deal with the 1 damage / 1MV spell from the Tetsuo trigger.
Your logo is the shot
Can we have a "compilation" of other "last know information" interactions?
I did a long form video a couple years ago here: th-cam.com/video/BpiYn1kj8-c/w-d-xo.html
Also, there are a lot of LKI videos in my "resolving a spell" playlist.
I have some doubt about the apppication of the second part of 608.2g and why removing Tetsuo before the resolution of his trigger ability doesn't stops it from resolving.
In first, removing Tetsuo isn't enogh to stops the second check of the interving if clause to see if the condition still is true, since Tetsuo is no longer on the field?
In second, the specific object information required by Tetsuo's ability isn't conditioned by a previous game infomation check?
I say that because the Tetsuo's ability doesn't determite which object that will be used as parameter to check for the "information from specific object" that the ability needs for resolve (the mana value of the parameter object itself). To define the object of parameter, the ability uses a game information, which is the highest mana value between the equipaments attached to Tetsuo at the moment of ability resolves.
Its diferent, for exemple, of a Murderous Redcap trigger ability. His trigger ability already defines which object will be the parameter to check the information from a specific object that the ability needs, that is itself. In that case, I agree with the application of LKI, and check for the attack of Murderous Redcap when he was on the field, if he's removed before the resolution of his trigger ability, but that situation is not the same of the Tetsuo's ability.
That said, once I removed Tetsuo before his ability's resolve, it will not have any equipaments attached to him.
So, isn't right to conclude that removing Tetsuo in this point is enogh to stops the effects of his trigger ability to occuor, since his ability needs a game information that no longer exist to define which parameter will be used to check the informatiom from a specific object that the ability needs for resolve?
Idk if you understood my question. My english sucks! Sorry about that!
That is incorrect. Bolded parts are important to this situation.
608.2h
If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. *If the effect requires information from a specific object,* including the source of the ability itself, *the effect uses the current information of that object* if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, *or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information.* See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists-or as it most recently existed-that does it, not the ability.
how does out of the tombs interact with forbidden crypt?
believe in the cleave
Hi, can someone help a newbie out? Say I have 4 Gloomdrifters and 4 other cards in the graveyard. I cast Balthor the Defiled and activate his ability. What will happen?
All four Gloomdrifters are put onto the battlefield at the same time. Then the game checks to see if any triggered abilities trigger. Except by this time, none of the Gloomdrifters have any triggered abilities, since their controller doesn't have threshhold by this point.
How does nafelshnee work?
Nice 👍