@@danielendlessNeither is the anime with Pan flying. There is no canon version of Super, because they all added something to Toriyama's bare bones outline which turned out to contradict his vision. Only the movies are 100% canon, the events between them don't have a definitive canon version.
Super is just wracked with poor planning, even going back to the U6 tournament arc. Nobody in charge thought these things through, and this culminates in the manga’s stark differences to the anime in the later years.
@@Jman.Mp4 It's something I gleamed a very long time ago. Half the problem stems from the localization-the dialogue is all punched up so that all of the conflicts and affairs are given a distinctive "Ally to good, nightmare to you" flavor, when that's NEVER what Goku's been about. He'll correct a wrong and battle for the helpless, but he's not a Superman figure in the slightest. The other half of the problem is, just speaking on the meta, editor interference. Allegedly, Japan did not like the idea of Gohan as MC. And so he became Ferdinand (and I know I just showed my age with that reference, but let's ignore it). Instead of paying that price of constant vigilance, Gohan would rather live his life, raise his kids, and smell the flowers. It got easy to accept his shenanigans once that became an actual pattern.
Yeah realistically there was nothing stopping him from becoming the MC aside from editor interference, and while we can guess whether Toryama wanted him to be the MC or not, we'll never really know. Save for a potential interview quote I'm not aware of.
I mean, sure, but Gohan is a lying hypocrite. This matters more than her or not hero. That's just horrible writing, or just not caring for the character.
Trunks should be the hero of the future but now he’s just a time pirate: stealing time and making new timelines when things go south for the world because he’s weak af. Bulma is the culprit of ALL of this for creating the Time Machine BULMA!!!! Maybe she already made other timelines
@@Jman.Mp4 .. Nno. It was Toriyama, not gohan the character, who despite anything good he did, STILL didnt handle great-power-with-responsiblity well: He barely acknowledged the western fans, ruined Gohans future time and time again, he did Yamcha wrong, made 'Super,' never acknowledged Dbz absalon.. And he never condemned sjw dei. ALL of that? He was supposed to handle with more responsibility.
@@Kirbing0 Because Absalon was better than 'Super' at least in plot. It was made with such love by those fans, such unimaginable hard work. And instead of embracing their work, and doing the ONE, major thing most content creatives fail at which is 'ACKNOWLEDGING' the fans above money, and status, he chose to be blind.
Wholeheartedly agree. As flawed as the Moro arc and TOP arc was, it did Gohan a lot of justice as a fighter and a planner. He felt like an actual character who wanted to evolve and protect his family. God bless Toriyama, but when he doesn’t really care about a character you can really tell😭 the difference between Gohan and Piccolo in the movie is evidence enough.
As flawed as the writing and character direction is in Super Hero I love the intention to bring them back to the forefront of the series, it's probably a result of all the "Goku and Vegeta show" comments about super.
@ it is really hard to change the structure of the goku and vegeta show without actually focusing on the other characters or giving them crazy powerups lol
I think that as Toyotaro continues the story we will see Super Hero as a necessary evil of sorts to make Gohan and Piccolo more relevant to the story, it isn't that I want them to be obscure again, I just wish that it was done in a more graceful way for Gohan at least. Piccolo in that movie is simply the goat.
Son Gohan devoted his time to his career & fanily to the neglect of his powers. Peter Parker devoted his time to superheroics usually to the neglect of his life (a lot of relationship breakups, having to put his science career on hold, etc.)
The majority of his paternal devotion to Pan in SUPER VS his one time very relatable situation of work getting in the way which was resolved in SUPER HERO. Geez Louise do fans take the latter as the final word. It’s no where near seeing your baby son falling to certain Doom NOT CARING, but suddenly Gohan is a deadbeat dad.
I'd rather be awesome than lame... Like, being a martial artist that can throw down with gods or be just a nerd... The choice is obvious In reality, nobody likes nerds, nobody... Nobody really respects them, nobody really cares about them Gohan chose to be a nerd, a lame and as such the fan base don't really respect him, he doesn't deserve it. Lames and nerds deserve none
It could be many reasons but I’ve always heard that he was pushed to return goku or that it just didn’t feel right without goku. More so focusing on the lack of goku than the flaws of Gohan.
From what i remember at the time people were desperate on wanting goku back in the buu saga, so i assumed one of the reason why gohan didn't live up to his fullest was because people at the time were so fond goku that it wouldn't feel the same if he was taken over by gohan
This is proof of your lack of comprehension of Gohan's character and Toriyama's writing skills. This whole video is flawed because its trying to compare Gohan to a completely different character when that's simply not what he is. Gohan at heart is someone who does NOT enjoy fighting. This is why Toriyama said Gohan doesn't fit the role of main character, because at heart dragon ball is a series about FIGHTING, and if Gohan can't follow that formula then he will not fit the role of MC.
@@SuperToadCrewNo A man who doesn't enjoy fighting but is forced to due to circumstances outside of his control is a very well established trope, and it absolutely works as the basis of a story.
Don't you see? It's all because of death. Future Gohan is that hero. He will always fight the androids even though he fails. He is willing to fight even without an arm. Why? Because the dragon balls are gone. Goku and others can't come back. He's taken responsibility. Meanwhile super Gohan is lazily comfortable with the idea of Goku and Vegeta always coming back to save him. That's why.
Fan theory: The Korean girl that Peter saved from the burning building in Spiderman 2 could be Cindy Moon, which could lead to her being bitten by one of the super spiders when she turns 14-15. That would be a golden opportunity to make a Silk Movie, where Tobey Maguire's Spiderman could be a mentor figure to the Raimiverse's variant of Cindy Moon/Silk.
This was a very well made video! Completely disregarding the fact that gohan is my favorite character despite his writing flaws, those very writing flaws that exist in modern dragon ball make his character hard to follow at best and dowright frustrating at worst. It was nice to see it from this perspective. I don't think gohan should have to choose between being a hero and a family man/scholar, though. Yes, because he actively wants to be a protector, he should keep up with consistent training in order to be that protector; and the fact that they keep having him learn that lesson is a huge spit in the face to what has been built up until now. (though in the manga i rhink theyre rectifying that) But he shouldn't have to give up spending time with his family and enjoying his interests. I think the ultimate testament to his character would be him finding a way to balance both, which i believe him perfectly capable of doing. I don't know, i think after everything he's been through, I'd rather he be happy AND prepared to defend against oncoming threats, instead of being constantly prepared, and despite knowing fighting against world ending beings IS his responsibility, run himself into the ground and damage the relationships he's trying to protect. (Tho tbh hes doing that with his studies too, which could be an interesting thing to expound upon if the writers actually cared to.) He's a lot more sensitive than goku or vegeta i think that'd get to him. I think i am being incredibly biased, though lmao. But thats just my two cents. Again, this is a great video, and i could tell it was made from a love of the series! Keep it up 👍👍
I completely agree with everything you’ve said here, my ideal version isn’t him giving up his family to train, but finding a happy healthy balance between the two, which I agree seems to be where the manga will take him next. I’m glad my love for the series comes off because I was worried I had been too critical, I just want the character writing to be a level of quality that I know it’s capable of.
Gohan's entire role during Superhero was a joke. He was a glorified plot device rather than a character, with every action he took being something orchestrated or resulting from Piccolo. The main problem Gohan faces is still being written like a child. He is still a passive character whose actions are dictated by others, still left hesitant and never learning the importance of the strength he possesses.
in super im pretty sure they realized the characters had grown too much that they needed to give them a lombotomy in order for the show to not be goku and the gang to instantly beat up the main villan in 0.5 seconds
Gohan repeating his character arc is just bad writing on Toriyama's part and also the theme of Dragon Ball is actually that both hard work and talent are necessary to be the strongest. Vegeta did beat Goku in the Saiyan saga but he lost ideologically since a low class like Goku with hard work was able to come close to the power of a super elite. In the Frieza saga we actually see that genetics are just as important as hard work with Goku spamming Zenkai's while he was gravity training on his way to Namek.
The reason I don’t consider vegeta the winner of that fight is that goku got his end goal of getting vegeta off earth and vegeta failed in getting the dragon balls so goku had won in the sense that he completed his objective even though he lost the physical confrontation
@@Jman.Mp4 Finally someone else says the Truth! That fight not only Vegeta not got his goal off getting the dragon balls but he couldn't kill anybody there and people keep forgetting that VEGETA himself calling it a loss like... if the Character himself says its a loss not really sure what you see there as a win. Goku win the beam struggle and he helped sooo much in getting Vegeta off the planet when he got all most all of his bones broken like..... how can you NOT consider that a win for Goku??? i just don't get it and the purely vegeta vs Goku part again fights aren't that simple there are goals and stuff and if you don't reach your goal you can't just say you won lol
Fights go far beyond the physical conflict, especially in fiction fights are posed as a clashing of ideals framed through a clashing of objectives, and in this sense a winner of a fictional fight is usually called based on objective and proving one’s ideology rather than who beat the other up more. Vegeta thought he was stronger than goku based on birth circumstance alone, that he was untouchable, he was proven wrong.
Yeah, this is exactly how I feel about the mishandling and even regression of character of Gohan. While growing up he was forced to fight, but he made the decision himself in the RoSaT to get strong so he can protect those he cares about. That was HIS decision. Then, 16 and Goku's unnecessary death cemented in Gohan that he can't hesitate anymore. Sure, times of peace gave way to complacency and you could argue Gohan didn't understand he needed to keep training, because he thought he could handle anything that came his way since he's the strongest in the galaxy at the end of the Cell Saga. But he has no excuses anymore when he became Ultimate Gohan. Heck, he saw what happened to Piccolo and Krillin, so he should have already had a wakeup call when fighting Dabura. I chalk that one up to both his childhood trauma and his Saiyan bloodlust for fighting. But that made his failure to stop Buu's revival and his failure to stop Super Buu even worse. That should have been a Final Flash-looking Masenko and the end of Super Buu, but instead he lets Buu absorb Piccolo and Gotenks. And yeah, Jman is right. It only gets worse in Super and Especially in Super Hero. I dunno why, but Gohan's handling and character after the Cell Saga was a huge fail. Not even in Dragon Ball, in all of fiction, I can't remember a more irredeemable and regressed stagnated character.
Idk how I never thought of the Spiderman comparison. Always had the idea that Gohan wasn't doing what he, simply by having saiyan blood, HAD TO do, but never connected the dots with the responsibility talk.
It’s interesting to note that Gohan has done a solid job protecting the Earth in situations where the story has Goku CANT intervene. It’s when the story requires Goku to save the day that it’s a different story.
For a long time now, I've seen Spider-Man as an exercise in guilt and, to a degree, self harm. Yes, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility", but Peter, the world around him, and even Marvel Comics and the general audience, only view this statement through the lens of his Spider powers, specifically. In reality, this also applies to his intelligence, which is on par with people like Tony Stark and Reed Richards. Spider-Man remains who he is not because he's a hero, but because of his guilt over what happened to Uncle Ben. Like Batman, he could use his "wealth" to invent new technologies and give the world a chance to defend itself, without the need of a hero at all. In every universe where he gets over his guilt, he's able to make something of his life, whether for better or worse. Great Responsibility is not simply saving others as a superhero, but it also encompasses the responsibility of taking action within your own life in a responsible manner. If being a hero harms those you love, when you have the ability to do things a better way, then that is irresponsible. And the self harm aspect comes in because Peter COULD stop, but he doesn't, because of his guilt, so him being Spider-Man in the first place becomes an act of him punishing himself by staying in such a painful place, and stockholming himself into thinking it's the right thing to do.
I love this take on his story, I'm not the most familiar with modern comic storylines so I don't know if it's been done or not but I would love to see Peter go through an arc having to deal with the idea that Spider-Man came from a trauma response, I think it would have some very interesting conclusions for the future of the character.
Well, maybe Super was going out of their way to distinguish itself from GT's characterization like they have with other characterizations? Despite the lack of screentime and attention. GT Gohan was repeatedly stated to have stayed in shape having learned his lesson from the Buu Saga, but since so many years of peace went by, his main focus was his family and job, but the moment a problem came up. He was there. (Except the Shadow Dragons, for some reason the entire cast was absent until the literal final fight with Omega which was weird on everyone's end.) But yeah, you can even be informed of Gohan's character through his Daughter Pan, consistently displayed to have a burning hot sense of justice likely from both her parents. It burns so hot she gets into trouble. Heck, Gohan even expressed interest in SSJ4 at the end. Showing a drive for improvement. Granted, I think it's a bit weird that Vegeta and Goku surpassed Gohan, but I will give that to them being more dedicated gym rats than Gohan.
Ultimately I don’t think gohan will ever permanently be the strongest main cast member, because a. Goku and by extension Vegeta are so iconic as mc’s at this point it’s out of the mangaka’s hands Goku and Vegeta are too iconic of a duo to ever go without
@@Jman.Mp4 It was never out of Tori or Toyo's hands. When he was writing Buu Saga in the 90s, Tori thought Gohan wasn't suited to being the MC, which I disagree with, but at least is rooted in his understanding of his characters and the world he built. But in modern Tori and Toyo's case, I think it is because they lack courage to move on from Goku and Vegeta and/or the writing skill to do so. Imagine if DC Comics after COIE thought Barry Allen was too iconic as The Flash to ever go without and immediately undid his death? We would have never gotten all the amazing stories of Wally West growing into The Flash mantle and eventually surpassing Barry. In fact, DC Comics bringing back Barry Allen in Final Crisis shares a lot of parallels with Tori and Toyo deciding to make Goku and Vegeta the sole main characters of Super and consistently relearn what they already learned years ago. That and rehash themes and concepts already exploded, often in greater detail and/or in greater depth. Namely, creators ruining the natural progression of their story in order to be able to fall back on the crutch that is nostalgia.
I definitely agree that limiting goku and vegeta to being the main characters is definitely a limiting factor stemming from a lack of courage, and that there are infinite interesting stories to tell that aren’t being told when just focusing on them.
GT Gohan learned his lesson and never stopped training even if the last threat to Earth was 15 years ago. Without it he wouldn't be able to battle General Rilldo and other villains who escaped hell nor would his Saiya power make Goku strong enough to defeat Baby and go against Omega Shenron until Vegeta arrived. GT Gohan is a hero.
@@Jman.Mp4youll hear this with a lot of characters lmao its why the current mangaka for super got hired. he was a GT sequel a writer. they definitely were glazing goku in GT but the relative main cast had lots of personality growth where they lacks screentime or feats
As regards to Super Hero, I think Piccolo was speaking in hyperbole when he said he didn't have problems with weighted clothing as a child. I'm sure that weight was way more than it was when he was a kid (or maybe the same weight as he had when he was SSJ before Cell). I think also the fact that Gohan blocked Piccolo's strike showed that Gohan did do SOME training. Just not improving from where he was post ToP much if at all. Otherwise it would make Beast mode look like a total ass-pull he could have done any time during Super.
See the thing is I believe beast mode IS an asspull, if it’s supposed to be the end result of all this “potential” we’ve been talking about since he was a kid, what is the ultimate form? You’re right that it’s implied he trains a little but it can’t be anything crazy considering that he couldn’t sense piccolo’s ki, which again is something he could do as a kid. And whether the weight is from saiyan saga or cell saga, that still makes him weaker than he was as a kid.
Team Four Star put it best in a way that would really explain his behavior. Gohan is a coward in the disguise of a pacifist. That would go along way to explain his constant slipping, it's not that he forgets that an invasion is possible, he prays that an invasion is impossible.
@@Jman.Mp4 In that way, he's even worse than a person that doesn't use their powers with responsibility. At least they're using their powers even if for only their own benefit. If they have any level of reasonablility they can be convinced to help others and might not even mind, so helping others might become a thing they just do later on. Gohan doesn't want to use his gifts for personal fun so he let's them rot. I think if I was to give instant transmission to anyone in this comment section for an example they could come up with a million uses. Vacations, getting to work without the commute, knocking over banks, saving people from fires, no one would let it just be. People want powers because they want to use those powers, it is the greater sin to have them and refuse to use them than have them and use them for evil. Me, I'd use instant transmission for vacations and make money with no effort. That's why TFS is completely right and why he's pretty much useless on the team.
Gohan is the strongest and the hero when Goku fails(or when Goku is in very different place). Gohan is not always hero but he is still the best hero. Goku is fighting for himself, he really enjoy this. Gohan is fighting to protect everyone.
I think the reason why Gohan is the way he is is because his relationship with fighting is much different than anyone elses. By the time he was five years old he saw so many deaths (against Nappa and on Namek), and associated fighting with war and pain and death. From the moment his Uncle showed up to the end of the Cell saga, Gohan was in constant peril, fighting not because he wants to, but because he has to. Goku on the otherhand, just wanted to fight strong guys and he wanted to become stronger, which was his interest as well as the other fighters. Goku didn't experience death until he was a teenager and even then no where near the brutality of someone like Frieza. All of the fighters except Gohan were driven to train and that was their whole identity. Gohan never wanted that for himself. And when he snapped and became a SSJ2 all of those years of being forced into war broke down. Keep in mind too that Gohan got his hubris from his Father and in the Abridged version actually calls out Goku's hubris when Goku tells him to kill Cell. Gohan brings up the fact he let Vegeta escape when he initially came to Earth, and he let Frieza power up to full power and even after Goku defeats him, tries to let him go. And of course against Cell, he gave Cell a senzu bean before Gohan started fighting. After Cell was destroyed, Gohan finally had time where he didn't have to train for another war. And to be fair on his part, the biggest threat in Trunks's future was the androids and now at least Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo could now take out threats on that level easily. Because Buu never showed up in Trunks's future, he didn't feel the need to train for another war. He had time to explore his interests finally. And considering him being raised by a single mother whose husband's love for battle resulted in his death and his son's trauma, it would make sense why she would push Gohan away from fighting, since it was directly associated with said trauma. The younger Trunks and Goten got to experience most of their childhood with training being a hobby, be exposed to it as something enjoyable, not something they HAD to do. Chi-chi taught Goten how to fight because he didn't have any trauma associated with it. And Vegeta trained with Trunks as a means of protecting him from possible death (since he saw the Future version die in front of his eyes). And here's something to consider too, in Z, Gohan is the only one who uses his ability actively to handle smaller threats. When it wasn't a world-ending threat, he was the ONLY one to step up as a hero (Saiyaman), while the others just trained. Krillin is the only one who actually uses his power for good in Super as a cop. Ignoring post Buu material, we don't know how strong everyone is at the end of the original manga. So those who think Gohan should continue training can assume he did, and those who don't think Gohan should continue traing can assume he didn't.
That’s a great point about him as the great saiyaman, but what I’d disagree with is that he was ALWAYS pushed towards battle as a kid. He knew that namek would be dangerous and decided to go anyway, did he know he was going to have to fight frieza? Absolutely not, but once faced with that reality he chose to fight to protect the namekians still alive, this arc presents the whole scholar idea as something that chi chi’s pushing on him and they really he wants to hang out with the z fighters in that arc at least. I love your point about the end of z though
Meh, I was actually writing a very long ass comment about how Gohan didn't slack off on his training in most of the alternate timelines, but TH-cam closed on me so I lost what I was writing, but my point was going to be that its only in bad stories such as in Super, that they basically reset all the character's growing arcs since even Vegeta had grown by the end of Z, but they also reset him as well, so its a shame that the most recent DB story has basically betrayed the characters in its story. I would encourage people to look more into Gohan in the alternate timelines though, as he was often the key player in those stories, such as he was the only person that was able to train Future Trunks and acquired Super Saiyan on his own, or how for games like the Dragon Ball Online MMO, it was Gohan's training and research notes on it, that allowed for the descendants of that game to get even stronger and learn things such as Ki control and etc.
Yes this is an important point, gohan isn’t the only character that’s misrepresented in super, while I’m not sure exactly how to articulate it, vegeta’s character regresses heavily until basically the moro arc when toei got off Toyotaro and he seemingly had more creative freedom
The fundamental difference between Goku and Gohan is that Goku actively enjoys combat. Remember he let Vegeta live solely because he wanted to fight him again and beat him. There's a reason why "Hey it's me Goku. You look strong, wanna fight?" is a meme. Gohan does not enjoy combat in the same way his father does, despite the fact that he's very good at it. He's been exposed to and potentially traumatised by violence since he was a child. Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, and Frieza basically beat on a kid who had no real means of fighting back against them. Problem is, Dragon Ball never deeply explored how these events affected Gohan and whether they made him dislike fighting. This could have been a genuine character growth moment for him where he acknowledges how he doesn't really like to fight but realises he has to overcome it in order to be the protector Earth needs him to be.
It would have been so interesting to see if it really effected him and THAT’s why he doesn’t train, but he doesn’t shy away from fighting, just refuses to train, it could be such an interesting arc for him to overcome his trauma from having to fight at such a young age but it just never happened
I genuinely believe, that Gohan was just messing with Piccolo in the beginning of Super Hero. Like, he was purposely hiding from him, what he knew he was capable of already. Idk, maybe I'm wrong, but that's the vibe that I got from their first interaction in the film. And, let's not forget how surprised Piccolo was with Gohan at the end of the film... Gohan has, time and time again, always blew our expectations out of the water. He's like the super great surprise character, who has an awesome trick under his sleeve. Who knows how he'll pay off again in the main story?
@Jman.Mp4 I do absolutely agree on your perspective though, that Gohan does not always follow the same important principles that Goku, and even now Vegeta follow. If 2 characters who were once his father's greatest enemies (Piccolo and Vegeta), can follow the hero's code to a fault, then why can't Gohan? It seems like he's finally learning, especially by the end of Super Hero. But who knows for sure? Let's hope so. He can't let Pan down, that's for sure. Also, I have recently made a video talking about the best way to watch DBZ, if you're interested. I touch on the history of home releases, alongside the fan team known as Seed of Might in my video. It's a very important video, that talks about preservation, and I highly recommend it to any Dragon Ball fan.
i think gohan is actually pretty in character for actually not training alot. he's always been forced to fight when he never wanted to, and then was told to protect the earth without proper guidence, it sounds like piccolo never trained with gohan over those 7 years nor has vegeta tried to train with him either. he was a always more of a watch on the guidelines and dad"ll save the day, which has always worked for him. actually super hero did it right when they had gohan have to face what its like when goku isnt around, he had to face that he had to actually try and that his dad wont always be there to clean up the mess, the only time that happened before is the cell saga.
I actually do love that aspect of super hero and I may have misrepresented how I feel about the movie. I don’t hate the movie at all, in fact I love it, I just don’t love the way gohan speaks and acts in the begining.
at the same time, if a robber threatens your family because you never lock your front door, eventually you would lock it. gohan is the type of person to keep it unlocked anyways. thats my issue with him.
I think the long of the short of it is, Goku usually fights because he enjoys it and it just so happens to save the world. Gohan usually fights ONLY because he is forced into it. But if you think about irresponsibility, consider that Goku is basically "with great power comes no responsibility", much moreso than Gohan with the following examples: 1. He left the reincarnation of the Demon King Piccolo go at the end of Dragon Ball, giving him a senzu bean even. 2. He let Vegeta leave Earth after they all defeated him, even telling Krillin to stop seeing vengence. 3. He tried to let Frieza go after he defeated him, even trying to give him some power (which got thrown back in his face). 4. When Trunks told Goku about the androids, the first thought wasn't to try to prevent the androids from existing, but rather train and test himself against them (all of the Dragon Team is at fault for this one too, especially the humans). 5. Giving Cell a senzu bean before Gohan fights him. 6. He didn't use SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta and knock him out quickly. 7. He didn't use his remaining power to kill Buu the first time as he thought the kids should do it. 8. Goku telling Kid Buu his hopes his power is reincarnated so he can fight again. For all we know Uub could have ended up being evil on his own accord (as there are evil humans) and just happen to have Buu's powers, so he is an even bigger threat. 9. Not a specific example, but Goku never did any crime fighting (like Gohan and Krillin), or seeking out threats to the universe and stopping them. 10. Also not a specific example, but Goku (nor anyone else) ever sought out the Namekian Dragon Balls to revive loose ends (i.e. the city Nappa destroyed, the Namekians Vegeta killed, anyone who wasn't brought back after the Cell games because they had died and were brought back previously with the Earth Dragon Balls). Yes some of these outcomes turned out well in the end, particularly the eventual turn from bad to good for Piccolo and Vegeta, and Good Buu existing, but a lot of these lead to many unnecessary deaths, some of which could have been prevented.
My issue with Gohan has been that, for all his "Hidden Power" moments to awesome, he ultimately exists as a plot device rather than a character, as well as being character assassinated in his own series. Gohan had both literal and writing potential, but he doesn't reach it. Gohan doesn't get developed where he should, despite all the reason he can. Gohan's purpose throughout all of Dragonball Z until the Cell Games was to use his Hidden Power to stall the villain until Goku was able to beat the villain, that's it. He is scared of fighting in the Saiyan Saga, which his arc is about getting over that, and then Gohan never has any issues fighting all until the Cell Games... where he suddenly hates fighting, in direct contradiction to his entire character up to that point. In fact, it's in contradiction to Gohan's entire character in the lead up to the Cell Games themselves. Gohan's whole motivation for going Super Saiyan just before the Cell Games was realizing just how useless he had been up until that point, and wanting to overcome that. Then Gohan gets to the Cell Games and in a retcon to end all retcons says he hates fighting, which has stuck to his character ever since. Gohan then proceeds to, because of his inexperience in fighting and arrogance, get his father killed. This, more than any other moment in his life, should have taught Gohan that even if he really really hates fighting, he needs to step up and keep himself ready for the next threat. As the video mentions however, Gohan completely misses the lesson the Cell Games gave him... and doesn't train for seven years, resulting in Gohan being much weaker than he could be. Anyway, Gohan's failure to train means he is completely unprepared for Babidi and Majin Buu. Failing to learn his lesson upon getting Ultimate form, he makes the exact same mistakes that got Goku killed during the Cell Games, leading to Gohan's absorption and complete irrelevance for the rest of the arc. Then worst of all, even after his failure to be prepared resulted in catastrophe, in both GT and Super, two separate timelines, Gohan STILL doesn't train! Meaning Gohan fails to learn his lesson multiple times in multiple timelines! In short, Gohan's problem is a lack of development and his purpose as a plot device rather than a character. Gohan keeps getting reset to go through the exact same arc over and over because Toriyama didn't know what to do with Gohan anymore. And the entire reason for it is because if Gohan were to train even half as hard as Vegeta or Goku, then he would render both entirely irrelevant. Which Toriyama could have solved simply by showing that after the Cell Games Gohan "hit a ceiling" with his potential and now advances at roughly the same rate as everyone else. In fact, Toriyama could have done that at any point along the line while he was still alive. In fact, simply have Gohan train SOME while taking time for his family and his career while having his potential allow Gohan to keep up would have been good enough. Gohan doesn't have to train all day every day. Just take an hour a day to train, that's it.
There were a lot of ways that Gohan could have continued the series as an interesting character, I don’t even hate his arc in the Buu saga, but it’s the refusal to do anything new with him after that that REALLY gets me, I hope that when the manga gets picked back up he will strike a balance in his life and finally have some forward movement towards a new character arc for the first time since the cell games, which seems to be the case from the few chapters post super hero we have so far
@@Jman.Mp4 Yeah, but I'm not holding my breath. Toriyama had at least a half dozen opportunities to develop Gohan just in DBZ alone and didn't take a single one, with putting Gohan up to take out Cell being the only real development Gohan ever actually got. Post DBZ hasn't been much better, as your video shows. Future writers tend to stick with tradition.
In short terms this is like if Superman stop being a hero because there’s other heroes and he wants to be around his family more you can’t blame him but yet u can’t respect it either all the power in the world and you chose to be normal it sounds noble into you think about it
There's more than one way to save the world, but this is Toriyama's world, a dragon ball z/super world. So Gohan's research and studies never amount to anything. It would be nice if he used his knowledge of ants etc to save the world, or maybe even help him beat an opponent that Goku and Vegeta failed to, due to his specialized knowledge.
Gotta give it to my beloved Dragon Ball: for all its inconsistencies and plotholes, Gohan decision to not be a fighter has remained absolutely consistent.
Slight correction. Goku was fighting at full strength but he didn’t know if Cell was. Cell still thought he could take Goku if Goku got a senzu mid match and later when he powered up to max against SSJ2 Gohan, everyone minus Gohan were shocked.
It’s not impossible to write Gohan to be a happy family man, as well one of the best fighters to face off against inevitable threats. Goku and Vegeta aren’t model family men, but there exist scenes where they both spend time with their families and show love in their own ways. Where I think super fails Gohan is that he repeatedly makes the same mistakes he made against Cell and Buu. He could’ve been written to show he’s an experienced fighter whose learned from his mistakes and kept up with his training, but as well a loving father who cares a great deal for his family and has something to lose when any number of threats arise the cast need to beat. The turtle hermit way is to eat, sleep, play, and study alongside marital arts training to live a good life and make the most of your training, Gohan could’ve been written to demonstrate all of this through his positive relationship with his family, alongside his innate well of strength to find balance with his family and his responsibility to stand up to threats against the universe.
He does have Saiyan-like characteristics he enjoys fighting (though battles where lives are at stake are exceptions), married a strong woman, the strongest on Earth, and has a "beastly" rage when he gets angry. He also shows pride on some occasions. However, he has a very strong human mindset. He was somewhat traumatized-he practically grew up fighting against Saiyans. Even as a child, he fought against the emperor of the universe. So, this aspect should be taken into account. But would a human not sacrifice themselves to at least protect their family? Dedicating himself solely to studies is pure negligence.
@@Jman.Mp4 Goku could've not given Cell a senzu bean or teamed with Gohan to fight him instead of making it 1v1. Putting the responsibility to a 12 year old is a terrible idea.
Gohan never wanted to be a hero, he was forced into violent situations. But he may eventualy have no other choice but to live as a hero because danger exist out there and not having the power to face it if it come will cost him everything.
It seems like he has to face the reality that he has to train multiple times for it to truly stick, luckily he seems to be keeping up after Super Hero but we don't have very much after it yet.
The thing is he isn’t prioritizing his life over fighting, hens prioritizing his life over the lives of countless innocents which are at risk due to his in action
@@Jman.Mp4I didn't want to interfere but Goku is more irresponsible than Gohan. Let's see how horrible Character are Goku : *Goku let Vegeta live out of selfishness even after he was responsible for the death of his friends. *Promised to revive Frieza, Goku left him free to return to enslaving races across the universe. *Refused Bulma idea of using Shenron to find Dr. Gero laboratory and stop his plans because prefer fight abd doesn't care that much about innocent people, even after Future Trunks warned him of the danger of the Androids. *Goku sit and do nothing while Fat Buu massacre the humanity in DBZ and against Kid Buu Goku tells Vegeta that he could have easily beaten Fat Buu. Goku is an extremely selfish man, Look as a Gohan fan I don't understand why fans want to talk bad about Gohan, the most psychopathic character in Dragon Ball is Goku.
Indirectly Goku caused many deaths in the Android Saga out of selfishness, Goku could easily have used Shenron to find Gero laboratory and stop him before he created the Androids.
I think that this is one of the many reasons I kind of stopped liking Gohan post-Cell, or at least liking him significantly less. The Cell saga is where Gohan's arc finishes and the Buu saga reverts his growth and has him making the same mistakes he already learned from. And he stops his training despite Goku leaving, denying the responsibility of being Earth's new protector and immediately falls behind his father in terms of power. And his way of catching up to Goku is one of the worst in the entirety of Z, a power up given to him because someone had to get it, not because he earned it in any way or grow. At least the Guru power up can be seen as a reward for his selflessness and kindness to the Namekians.
Yeah I definitely agree with Guru's power up being a reward for his kind heartedness, and that the Elder Kai upgrade kind of came out of nowhere, it seems like he was backed into a corner in terms of Gohan's strength and had to resort to a random upgrade rather than a planned earned boost like with Guru.
If we look at it like that, is ANYONE a hero in Dragon Ball? Sure, when the World/Universe is in peril, Goku rises to meet the threat, but So does Gohan. (And most of the Z fighters, really) Even if Gohan's ultimately not as effective as Goku because of his lack of power, he still takes the time, and puts his life on the line when it becomes necessary. Hell, ironically, if you consider that Gohan is a Scholar, and also has his Saiyaman Shtick, Vs Goku who, when there aren't any World/Universe-Ending Threats (Which is most of the time), just indulges in his hobbies all day (which just so happens to be training), while Wolfing down the boatloads of food his wife has to cook for him, Gohan is actually more consistently, and actively helping and saving people than Goku is.
In Manga Gohan fight 100% serious against Super Buu the Arrogant Personality are 100% Toei, Kaioshin Fault too that doesn't tell Gohan about Buu capacity of absorb Warriors.
"With Great Power, there must also come Great responsibility" is the actual quote. There must also come makes a huge difference. The one the Raimi movie botched implies that having Great Power inherits you a great responsibility. But that's not the point. If that were the case, the villains wouldn't be villains. What the quote is saying is that when you have great power, you must use it responsibly. And that's what Gohan does. You can argue his inaction is a misuse of his power, but he has put his life on the line for right cause time and time again and sometimes unwillingly. I dont think its fair to say that he doesn't live up to the mantra. The correct one at least.
I think you’re looking at it wrong You’re reading that power comes with the responsibility required, whereas the quote is most likely intended to read that power comes with a burden to act, which is an inherently different idea
I'm sorry, your opening statement hit me a lot harder than I was expecting and I did not listen past the first minute. Because I believe your premise is fundamentally flawed. When a war veteran comes home (assuming it was a just war), we do not say "look, see, you're good at being a soldier, you must also be a soldier for us in the next just war." We thank them if they choose to re-enlist. But we support our veterans who say "I did my part" and now just want a quiet life. It doesn't seem like you're arguing that Gohan did not do his part. You agree that he was essential in preventing Vegeta and Nappa from ravaging the Earth, as well as playing a key role in defeating the Frieza army, and that he took point in defeating Cell. He did his part. And now he wants to live a quiet life. He is allowed to do that. He is allowed to say "I experienced a constant and unbelievable trauma from age 3 to age 12, and now I have done my time, and I just want to study my little books and hug my little family and live my little life." That doesn't contradict Uncle Ben. When Gohan wielded his power, he did so responsibly. When moral decisions were before him, he made good choices. But he is not compelled to always wield his power, and he is not compelled to guarantee that he always has power, or that he is always in a position to make the best moral choice. As we wait in January of 2025 for the new US administration to be inaugurated, and wait for the inevitable attacks they will launch against already-marginalized communities, I know a lot of people within those communities who are looking for ways to leave the country. People who have done good things. People who have fought, and have won and lost, and who would be invaluable resources for protecting members of their communities if they chose to stay. But I cannot ask them to keep fighting. I cannot ask them to spend whatever precious years they have left in pain because others would benefit from the product of their pain. That is a choice they must be allowed to freely make. And if Uncle Ben meant that they should not be allowed that choice if they want to be respected for the things that they have done, well, then that would mean that Uncle Ben is the greatest Spider-Man villain of them all. Keep making videos, guy. We use thoughts about fiction to process our thoughts about life, and that's important no matter what path it takes us down.
Thank you for your thoughtful response, though I do still disagree with your take. The main difference between our views of Gohan post-cell is that I don’t believe it’s fair to compare Gohan to a real life soldier, as in real life a soldier can be replaced in terms of war effort and manpower, Gohan can’t. I make this point far later in the video so I understand that you didn’t see it but speaking about war when it comes to super powers and non super powered individuals invited stark contrast, the reason Peter Parker and Gohan are made to keep fighting well after they’re comfortable is that there are only a handful of people who are physically capable of participating in these wars, if there were millions of people who could take Gohan or Spider-Man’s place then yes it would be cruel to ask them to continue fighting, but as the only people who can fight in a war for the safety of the earth for their entire densely populated universe in multiple cases for both, they are burdened with far more responsibility than is a. Fair and b. Realistically comparable to a real world situation. My main point for Gohan being a disappointment is that even following your understanding of the situation, even considering that he doesn’t have to fight anymore, he actually calls HIMSELF back to duty after the Buu saga, he understands that if he doesn’t train and keep himself strong than his family could die AGAIN, as they did the first time directly because he didn’t heed the call of responsibility. After all the trauma he’s gone through he still chooses to fight in all these battles, yet doesn’t do what he acknowledges himself that he must do in order to make meaningful contribution to said fight. Even considering your view on him, it’s not like he shies away from battle when called, or even seems to be bothered by the idea of fighting again in the slightest, note in resurrection F where he treats frieza’s return to be something of a friendly get together with his old pals and not a resurfacing of past trauma, but the important part is that he ignores his training in between, causing the lives of all those living in the world to be at stake because he couldn’t spend an hour a day at the gym. He chooses to fight, but doesn’t do what’s necessary to win, that’s the key difference in our understanding. I hope this doesn’t come of as disrespectful I just believe you misunderstand my intention.
@@Jman.Mp4 Gohan fights whenever there are threats. But he doesn't train hard during peace time to stay in top shape. You can't be a top shape saiyan while trying to have a proper earthling career. So in the end he chooses the earthling life.
Agreed, I also think that there can be a balance, training doesn't have to take over your life, but it should be a part of it if not doing so puts the lives of everyone and everything you hold dear at risk.
@@Jman.Mp4Gohan is replaceable though. Everytime Gohan fails to defeat an enemy from the Buu saga to the end of Super there is someone stronger that can finish the fight. And Gohan isn't alone in not doing what it takes to win, he gets that shit honestly from his dad.
Let's be real out of all the Z Warriors only Future Gohan and Future Trunks are heroes, Goku made so many mistakes that if Dragon Balls didn't exist the humanity would have been extinct in the Buu Saga.
I agree with everything you said. The man has family now he should work even harder to protect his family. I enjoyed the Super Hero movie but Gohan did not deserve that power up because he didn't worked for it. On another note Goten and present Trunks are utter failures. Hopefully the writers set up Uub and Pan to be the new protectors of earth.
With the Buu saga, I wish it was a combined effort in the end. I mean yeah the Spirit Bomb, but I'd rather it be Gohan, Gotenks, Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku, with the younger generation making some decisive blows. Sure we can keep Goku as the main protagonist if he fits that role better (he does imo, he is way to iconic not to), but like in Super, I think Gohan should be on a similar level to Goku and Vegeta, so that when those two are away, he takes the lead. The Boruto series is a good example of this, despite its flaws, I think it executes the father/son protagonist concept much bette(and Bleach if Kubo continues the Hell arc). And I agree, Gohan should keep up with his training. I also wish the humans had their own film so they can shine again (Krillin ,Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu). I hope there is some kinda of villain that can only be defeated by human hands. Proving that alien strength alone can't protect the world.
what hurts the most is he stopped fighting for the family life but ended up neg;ecting them on accident because his work got in the way. he is just like a real-life person now
The problem with Gohan, Goten, and Trunks is that if they ever consistently trained, let alone trained as much as their fathers, there would be no little conflict in the story without them hesitating, getting cocky, and/or the villain(s) getting asspull power ups (ex. Black Frieza). Moreover, everyone in the story who isn't a GoD, Angel, or Broly, including Goku and Vegeta, would be irrelevant when it comes to fighting. When Gohan consistently trains for a good period of time he is the strongest hero, and is usually one rage boost away from being the strongest character in an arc. Goten and Trunks as kids are at worst stronger than Namek Frieza, and guidebooks have them on early Buu Saga MSSJ Gohan's level.
One thing I think is crazy is, and I know how this is going to sound, but in the Tom Holland version of Spiderman, they gave Uncle Ben's line to Tom Holland's version of Aunt May. Don't get me wrong, but while it tsnt really entirely a bad thing for a woman to use the line, I think the line is more impactful for a young man if it is told to him by man who is that young man's father, the one who he probably looked up to all his young life.
Freeza isn't going to die you guys! Because he's alive in Neko Majin Z which is cannon to dragon ball And he has a son. also Uub lives with goku in his family. This is cannon and was written by toriyama on himself!
I aint think this comparison works because Peter is the only one with super powers, while in Dragonball, there are Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, the androids, and the humans to pick up his slack. Goku and Vegeta are the most powerful because, while they love their family, the actively love fighting, sometimes over the fate of the world (the android saga could've been avoided, and the whole majin vegeta fight). I think it's a lot more interesting to have a character that doesn't keep up, that's what made the buu saga interesting to me, it's just been pulled 2-3 too many times already. gohan should train more, even as one of his flaws, he should, but it would also betray his character if that's his number one thing he does all the time. Even Goku says it's ok for him to enjoy being a scholar over a warrior, so why wouldn't he? side note, the weighted clothing in super hero doesn't mean he's weaker than himself in the saiyan saga, he's probably just not used to it anymore. I you ran backwards all the time when you were little, you wouldn't be able to immediately adjust to doing that at the same level. also, if he was that weak, wouldn't he lose ultimate like in resurection F?
You're not wrong, but his comparison is spot on cause gohan is just that type of character power with no responsibility, just as he said it. Gohan is constantly thinking that goku and vegeta will always be there to get the job done. When we, as the viewer, know, that's not the case because gohan is the spider-man before he takes the great power great responsibility role. But your point is very much still valid.
I WOULD agree with your original point if peter parker’s story didn’t originate from the comic world where he’s far from the only one with powers, yes the example I talked about is the movies where it’s just him but the context of his creation is important. That being said, while Goku and Vegeta can handle a lot, they can’t take everything, like Black Frieza for example who is still around and far stronger than the two of them. Gohan can easily surpass them with the right attitude and they can’t stand up to frieza as things stand. Piccolo also says that the weighted clothing are too heavy on him and that it was light as a kid, meaning at the most generous he’s around pre cell saga time chamber strength, but most likely saiyan invasion level as I said in the video.
Legit, every single one of this character's arc has been a remix of the incredibly well written arc in the Saiyan Arc, and it's always required him to be regressed backwards to fit in the story. Fans have Stockholm syndromed themselves into the "Gohan doesn't WANT to fight, you meanie" even though in universe that is utterly nonsensical, and unfortunately shitty character writing.
Which is strange because he does fight, the issue isn’t him not wanting to fight, it ms him not taking the necessary precaution to make sure he can make a difference when he does
@Jman.Mp4 EXACTLY. Not wanting to fight, and not being the best you can be when you MUST fight is the issue, and something Toriyama already tackled with this character when he was 5 😭
Mostly agree, but I think there is implied slight mischaracterization of Goku, maybe even Vegeta. Heroic deeds of Goku and Vegeta are for the most part byproduct and not the central thing. They as a pure Saiyans are not training for heroism but for the pure thrill of the fight. They actually enjoy training and fighting villains, so going by their motives and the definition of heroism you used they shouldn't be considered heroes either. So going off of that, Piccolo might be the only one who could be considered an actual hero, maybe not even him all the time. Most if not all the others are either fighters who train for that reason or just a regulars who only train and fight as a last resort (Gohan, Krilin...). On a side note, I think it is not a bad Idea to portray Gohan differently, he shouldn't be a carbon copy of his dad. And if he was put as someone who is better at juggling family and training than he would be almost like Vegeta. And there is plausible in world explanation for his acting, maybe not explicitly stated, that non pure Saiyans don't have such thirst for battle and training. It is often stated how battle hungry Goku and Vegeta are to the degree that they are willing to risk other's safety (mostly Goku) just to have a good fight or a sparring partner.
yeah except he got his ass handed to him multiple times and his father died and he should have acknowledged that 'The common denominator in those fights was me'
@@Foralltosee1623 That reasonable, at the end of the day he is not perfect character. I personally wouldn't want him to be either battle hungry maniac like Goku and Vegeta or Superman like hero. I'm satisfied the way he is. Also I think at some point it was the idea of him replacing Goku as a main character, like Boruto did to Naruto, but I guess Goku and Vegeta were/are so popular that it was impossible to replace them. Maybe author's attempts to do such thing and than reverting back resulted in Gohan being the way he is.
I didn’t intend to imply it but I definitely agree that in super Goku has been heavily mischaracterized, while he has always prioritized his fighting instincts like when he hid SSJ3 from Vegeta and played rock paper scissors with him to decide who would fight Buu, those are far less egregious than things in super like forgetting the Mafuba seal which is so not Goku, if he has the wiggle room he’ll mess around, but he shouldn’t mess around if he doesn’t
@@Jman.Mp4 I'm not sure if it is just the issue of Super. I have seen that there are slight changes in Goku's characterization based on different versions of Sub/Dub, which give of slightly different vibe of Goku. I have watched it in 3 versions, English/Japanese/Serbian(my native) there are definitely visible differences. In English dub he often times does sound more mature, especially in the Z. Also I have heard, though I haven't checked, that even crossing from manga to anime Goku has been portrayed a bit more mature and less of an idiot regarding worldly things, also especially within Z. I won't even mention GT. The idea is that Super has stuck more to the manga version of Goku, and if they have given him progressively more maturity in Z compared to the manga, and than reverted in Super, I can see how that would be jarring. Also he definitely showed some willingness to risk it at the expense of potential safety even though it would usually be rectified not by him but by the story. Remember how he saved Piccolo at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi in the OG. He did it in part because of Kami, sure, but It was also stated that he did it to have a challenge/sparring partner. Actually I would argue that Goku acted more heroically, based on Ben's definition, in the OG, especially in the beginning, than he did in the later parts and in the Z/Super.
I can see how the difference between the dub and sub’s interpretation of Z Goku can make it feel more exaggerated for dub fans, but I do feel that super leans too far to the point of it being an oversimplification of Goku’s nuance in both versions (it’s been a while since I watched the sub though to be fair), the differences are summed up largely in goku’s I am the super saiyan speech on namek
@Jman.Mp4 gohan was never my favorite, but even then, i always appreciate what they did with gohan as a character so seeing him in super was just something else
I am tired of Gohan for leaning the same lesson over and over i didn't watch the the movie about Gohan getting a new form because i knew that he wasn't training after super when i saw the first trailer I just decided not to watch the movie because i knew it was going to make me mad
This is... weird. Yes, DB characters aren't heroes. They weren't supposed to be. Especially in OG DB they are selfish jerks to each other. You seem to have imputed statements that they never made to them. And your interpretation of Superhero is in error. You appear to want DB to be something it isnt. Which is fine, but weird take.
At no point did I mean to imply that DB heroes ARE heroes, just that Gohan isn’t by Uncle Ben’s definition due to his actions in super, simply because it’s a fun idea I thought of. You’re also projecting a lot of what you think my opinion on Dragon Ball is as a whole from an analysis on a single character from a lens other than my own. This isn’t intended to be my perspective of the whole series, but what I believe uncle Ben’s perspective would be on Gohan specifically.
@@Jman.Mp4 fair enough, if you are taking it from that perspective. It sounded more like you were making a normative judgment to me, so sorry I misunderstood. I do still think you are interpreting Superhero saying things it isnt
I might not be 100% on this but Spider-Man and Gohan are not the same. Peter never had family like Gohan. Peter was the only one that was relied on as Spider-Man to save New York countless of times by himself at least in the movies so it makes sense why he must take that role and not be selfish with his responsibilities. Gohan had his dad his little brother and his friends that were Z fighters. I guess you can say Gohan truly never thought that he was the number one fighter to be relied(All depends how dangerous his world is in I'm sure he'll jump in and fight to protect it.) on saving the world especially since his dad Goku is the strongest one and loves fighting more. Plus I blame Chi-Chi for ruining Gohan's life as a hero. If she would have never forced him to study 24/7 in his early youth than he probably would have been a better hero than his Dad.
Yeah they definitely deal with different situations but I do think it’s a fair comparison, especially with 616 spider-man who has plenty of heroes he could let take over
Just a small correction that doesn't really matter much... But Cell wasn't going 100% vs Goku. Cell was only warmed up and ready to go all out. Cell admits he's only reached about 80% of his full fighting abilities vs Goku's best(sans Spirit Bomb). Cell had a bit more to go, and still had his Full Power form that makes him stronger but bulky and slower. So, Cell really had a lot in the tank when he fought Gohan. But again, not really important.
Um Actually🤓☝,In Dbs Super Hero, Piccolo asked how did Gohan know special beam cannon and Gohan told him that he trained just a itsy bitsy amount for it.
Gohan is a product of his mother being short-sighted. He could've chilled for a year or 2 to ease his mind but then she should've continued with his hero training as well as schooling, impressing how important his purpose as protector is
It’s interesting how early on in z the whole scholar thing was implied that chi chi forced it upon him, and he had to lie to her to go to fight on namek
Super Hero feels even weirder considering the manga version of Gohan ACTIVELY trains and even took a very active role in the Moro arc.
Yeah the transition is VERY jarring, although that period of super is very odd timelinewise
It's almost like the Manga ain't the canon Super continuity 💀
@@danielendlessNeither is the anime with Pan flying. There is no canon version of Super, because they all added something to Toriyama's bare bones outline which turned out to contradict his vision. Only the movies are 100% canon, the events between them don't have a definitive canon version.
Except at the end of Super Hero we find out that he was training and simply lied to Piccolo about it for no reason
Super is just wracked with poor planning, even going back to the U6 tournament arc. Nobody in charge thought these things through, and this culminates in the manga’s stark differences to the anime in the later years.
Of course he's not a hero. His father wasn't a hero. Goku is a battle maniac with a good heart. Gohan is a pacifist with a violence button.
That's a very good way to make a distinction between the two
@@Jman.Mp4 It's something I gleamed a very long time ago. Half the problem stems from the localization-the dialogue is all punched up so that all of the conflicts and affairs are given a distinctive "Ally to good, nightmare to you" flavor, when that's NEVER what Goku's been about. He'll correct a wrong and battle for the helpless, but he's not a Superman figure in the slightest.
The other half of the problem is, just speaking on the meta, editor interference. Allegedly, Japan did not like the idea of Gohan as MC. And so he became Ferdinand (and I know I just showed my age with that reference, but let's ignore it). Instead of paying that price of constant vigilance, Gohan would rather live his life, raise his kids, and smell the flowers. It got easy to accept his shenanigans once that became an actual pattern.
Yeah realistically there was nothing stopping him from becoming the MC aside from editor interference, and while we can guess whether Toryama wanted him to be the MC or not, we'll never really know. Save for a potential interview quote I'm not aware of.
I mean, sure, but Gohan is a lying hypocrite. This matters more than her or not hero. That's just horrible writing, or just not caring for the character.
Gohan isnt a ''Pacifist'' at heart - That was a mistake toriyama made that will never stop haunting this franchise forever now.
You should do a heroism comparison between Future Gohan and Gohan
Agreed, they’re very different characters, products of their circumstance.
Trunks should be the hero of the future but now he’s just a time pirate: stealing time and making new timelines when things go south for the world because he’s weak af. Bulma is the culprit of ALL of this for creating the Time Machine BULMA!!!! Maybe she already made other timelines
@@Jman.Mp4 .. Nno. It was Toriyama, not gohan the character, who despite anything good he did, STILL didnt handle great-power-with-responsiblity well: He barely acknowledged the western fans, ruined Gohans future time and time again, he did Yamcha wrong, made 'Super,' never acknowledged Dbz absalon.. And he never condemned sjw dei. ALL of that? He was supposed to handle with more responsibility.
@@onojioboardwalk9748 what reason does he have to acknowledge absalon??
@@Kirbing0 Because Absalon was better than 'Super' at least in plot. It was made with such love by those fans, such unimaginable hard work. And instead of embracing their work, and doing the ONE, major thing most content creatives fail at which is 'ACKNOWLEDGING' the fans above money, and status, he chose to be blind.
Wholeheartedly agree. As flawed as the Moro arc and TOP arc was, it did Gohan a lot of justice as a fighter and a planner. He felt like an actual character who wanted to evolve and protect his family. God bless Toriyama, but when he doesn’t really care about a character you can really tell😭 the difference between Gohan and Piccolo in the movie is evidence enough.
As flawed as the writing and character direction is in Super Hero I love the intention to bring them back to the forefront of the series, it's probably a result of all the "Goku and Vegeta show" comments about super.
@ it is really hard to change the structure of the goku and vegeta show without actually focusing on the other characters or giving them crazy powerups lol
I think that as Toyotaro continues the story we will see Super Hero as a necessary evil of sorts to make Gohan and Piccolo more relevant to the story, it isn't that I want them to be obscure again, I just wish that it was done in a more graceful way for Gohan at least. Piccolo in that movie is simply the goat.
Having Gohan as my favorite character is painful post-Cell saga
I’m so sorry for you
Son Gohan devoted his time to his career & fanily to the neglect of his powers.
Peter Parker devoted his time to superheroics usually to the neglect of his life (a lot of relationship breakups, having to put his science career on hold, etc.)
Very true
He devotes his time to his career MORE than his family. How else does Piccolo get saddled with picking Pan up from school while Gohan studies ANTS?
The majority of his paternal devotion to Pan in SUPER VS his one time very relatable situation of work getting in the way which was resolved in SUPER HERO. Geez Louise do fans take the latter as the final word. It’s no where near seeing your baby son falling to certain Doom NOT CARING, but suddenly Gohan is a deadbeat dad.
I'd rather be awesome than lame... Like, being a martial artist that can throw down with gods or be just a nerd... The choice is obvious
In reality, nobody likes nerds, nobody... Nobody really respects them, nobody really cares about them
Gohan chose to be a nerd, a lame and as such the fan base don't really respect him, he doesn't deserve it. Lames and nerds deserve none
@@eyelessnosea1413 Well he’s a lame nerd that’s strong enough to fight against the Gods. Even in his Ultimate form he’s SSJ God/SSJ Blue level.
Toriyama feeling like Gohan didn't work as a main character honestly speaks to his limitations as a writer. The Spider-Man formula was right there.
It could be many reasons but I’ve always heard that he was pushed to return goku or that it just didn’t feel right without goku. More so focusing on the lack of goku than the flaws of Gohan.
From what i remember at the time people were desperate on wanting goku back in the buu saga, so i assumed one of the reason why gohan didn't live up to his fullest was because people at the time were so fond goku that it wouldn't feel the same if he was taken over by gohan
This is proof of your lack of comprehension of Gohan's character and Toriyama's writing skills. This whole video is flawed because its trying to compare Gohan to a completely different character when that's simply not what he is.
Gohan at heart is someone who does NOT enjoy fighting. This is why Toriyama said Gohan doesn't fit the role of main character, because at heart dragon ball is a series about FIGHTING, and if Gohan can't follow that formula then he will not fit the role of MC.
@@SuperToadCrewNo A man who doesn't enjoy fighting but is forced to due to circumstances outside of his control is a very well established trope, and it absolutely works as the basis of a story.
No it's just that he preferred to write characters like Goku.
Don't you see? It's all because of death. Future Gohan is that hero. He will always fight the androids even though he fails. He is willing to fight even without an arm. Why? Because the dragon balls are gone. Goku and others can't come back. He's taken responsibility. Meanwhile super Gohan is lazily comfortable with the idea of Goku and Vegeta always coming back to save him. That's why.
That doesn’t sound like Future Gohan is a hero; it sounds like he’s suicidal.
Future Gohan is the type of hero that present Gohan could be if he locked in
@ you mean “dead and unhappy”?
I mean saving an entire reality through his perseverance
@@Jman.Mp4 but he didn’t accomplish anything
Fan theory: The Korean girl that Peter saved from the burning building in Spiderman 2 could be Cindy Moon, which could lead to her being bitten by one of the super spiders when she turns 14-15. That would be a golden opportunity to make a Silk Movie, where Tobey Maguire's Spiderman could be a mentor figure to the Raimiverse's variant of Cindy Moon/Silk.
Interesting, I’d love to see a continuation of that universe and that’s a super cool premise for an older spider-man
Despite your idea is amazing even if someone pitch that to sony they'll reject it to make another disaster like medam web.
No silk is a shit character.
This was a very well made video! Completely disregarding the fact that gohan is my favorite character despite his writing flaws, those very writing flaws that exist in modern dragon ball make his character hard to follow at best and dowright frustrating at worst. It was nice to see it from this perspective.
I don't think gohan should have to choose between being a hero and a family man/scholar, though. Yes, because he actively wants to be a protector, he should keep up with consistent training in order to be that protector; and the fact that they keep having him learn that lesson is a huge spit in the face to what has been built up until now. (though in the manga i rhink theyre rectifying that) But he shouldn't have to give up spending time with his family and enjoying his interests. I think the ultimate testament to his character would be him finding a way to balance both, which i believe him perfectly capable of doing.
I don't know, i think after everything he's been through, I'd rather he be happy AND prepared to defend against oncoming threats, instead of being constantly prepared, and despite knowing fighting against world ending beings IS his responsibility, run himself into the ground and damage the relationships he's trying to protect. (Tho tbh hes doing that with his studies too, which could be an interesting thing to expound upon if the writers actually cared to.)
He's a lot more sensitive than goku or vegeta i think that'd get to him.
I think i am being incredibly biased, though lmao. But thats just my two cents.
Again, this is a great video, and i could tell it was made from a love of the series! Keep it up 👍👍
I completely agree with everything you’ve said here, my ideal version isn’t him giving up his family to train, but finding a happy healthy balance between the two, which I agree seems to be where the manga will take him next. I’m glad my love for the series comes off because I was worried I had been too critical, I just want the character writing to be a level of quality that I know it’s capable of.
Gohan's entire role during Superhero was a joke. He was a glorified plot device rather than a character, with every action he took being something orchestrated or resulting from Piccolo. The main problem Gohan faces is still being written like a child.
He is still a passive character whose actions are dictated by others, still left hesitant and never learning the importance of the strength he possesses.
Agreed
in super im pretty sure they realized the characters had grown too much that they needed to give them a lombotomy in order for the show to not be goku and the gang to instantly beat up the main villan in 0.5 seconds
Lmao that’s true
Gohan repeating his character arc is just bad writing on Toriyama's part and also the theme of Dragon Ball is actually that both hard work and talent are necessary to be the strongest. Vegeta did beat Goku in the Saiyan saga but he lost ideologically since a low class like Goku with hard work was able to come close to the power of a super elite. In the Frieza saga we actually see that genetics are just as important as hard work with Goku spamming Zenkai's while he was gravity training on his way to Namek.
The reason I don’t consider
vegeta the winner of that fight is that goku got his end goal of getting vegeta off earth and vegeta failed in getting the dragon balls so goku had won in the sense that he completed his objective even though he lost the physical confrontation
@@Jman.Mp4 In that sense yes, but if we are talking about purely Goku vs Vegeta, Goku lost
That’s true, I suppose it would be more accurate to say he lost to the z fighters or to earth’s defenses
@@Jman.Mp4 Finally someone else says the Truth! That fight not only Vegeta not got his goal off getting the dragon balls but he couldn't kill anybody there and people keep forgetting that VEGETA himself calling it a loss like... if the Character himself says its a loss not really sure what you see there as a win. Goku win the beam struggle and he helped sooo much in getting Vegeta off the planet when he got all most all of his bones broken like..... how can you NOT consider that a win for Goku??? i just don't get it and the purely vegeta vs Goku part again fights aren't that simple there are goals and stuff and if you don't reach your goal you can't just say you won lol
Fights go far beyond the physical conflict, especially in fiction fights are posed as a clashing of ideals framed through a clashing of objectives, and in this sense a winner of a fictional fight is usually called based on objective and proving one’s ideology rather than who beat the other up more.
Vegeta thought he was stronger than goku based on birth circumstance alone, that he was untouchable, he was proven wrong.
Yeah, this is exactly how I feel about the mishandling and even regression of character of Gohan. While growing up he was forced to fight, but he made the decision himself in the RoSaT to get strong so he can protect those he cares about. That was HIS decision. Then, 16 and Goku's unnecessary death cemented in Gohan that he can't hesitate anymore. Sure, times of peace gave way to complacency and you could argue Gohan didn't understand he needed to keep training, because he thought he could handle anything that came his way since he's the strongest in the galaxy at the end of the Cell Saga. But he has no excuses anymore when he became Ultimate Gohan. Heck, he saw what happened to Piccolo and Krillin, so he should have already had a wakeup call when fighting Dabura. I chalk that one up to both his childhood trauma and his Saiyan bloodlust for fighting. But that made his failure to stop Buu's revival and his failure to stop Super Buu even worse. That should have been a Final Flash-looking Masenko and the end of Super Buu, but instead he lets Buu absorb Piccolo and Gotenks. And yeah, Jman is right. It only gets worse in Super and Especially in Super Hero. I dunno why, but Gohan's handling and character after the Cell Saga was a huge fail. Not even in Dragon Ball, in all of fiction, I can't remember a more irredeemable and regressed stagnated character.
It sucks because he was done so well up to cell and afterwards he feels like an afterthought
Funny saying that Goku death is "unnecassary" when it literally will kill the entire population of Earth if Goku didn't teleport😂
Idk how I never thought of the Spiderman comparison. Always had the idea that Gohan wasn't doing what he, simply by having saiyan blood, HAD TO do, but never connected the dots with the responsibility talk.
Glad I could make the connection!
It’s interesting to note that Gohan has done a solid job protecting the Earth in situations where the story has Goku CANT intervene. It’s when the story requires Goku to save the day that it’s a different story.
Yeah a lot of gohan’s mistakes are a result of Toryama wanting Goku to continue being the MC
For a long time now, I've seen Spider-Man as an exercise in guilt and, to a degree, self harm. Yes, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility", but Peter, the world around him, and even Marvel Comics and the general audience, only view this statement through the lens of his Spider powers, specifically. In reality, this also applies to his intelligence, which is on par with people like Tony Stark and Reed Richards.
Spider-Man remains who he is not because he's a hero, but because of his guilt over what happened to Uncle Ben. Like Batman, he could use his "wealth" to invent new technologies and give the world a chance to defend itself, without the need of a hero at all. In every universe where he gets over his guilt, he's able to make something of his life, whether for better or worse.
Great Responsibility is not simply saving others as a superhero, but it also encompasses the responsibility of taking action within your own life in a responsible manner. If being a hero harms those you love, when you have the ability to do things a better way, then that is irresponsible.
And the self harm aspect comes in because Peter COULD stop, but he doesn't, because of his guilt, so him being Spider-Man in the first place becomes an act of him punishing himself by staying in such a painful place, and stockholming himself into thinking it's the right thing to do.
I love this take on his story, I'm not the most familiar with modern comic storylines so I don't know if it's been done or not but I would love to see Peter go through an arc having to deal with the idea that Spider-Man came from a trauma response, I think it would have some very interesting conclusions for the future of the character.
Well, maybe Super was going out of their way to distinguish itself from GT's characterization like they have with other characterizations?
Despite the lack of screentime and attention. GT Gohan was repeatedly stated to have stayed in shape having learned his lesson from the Buu Saga, but since so many years of peace went by, his main focus was his family and job, but the moment a problem came up. He was there. (Except the Shadow Dragons, for some reason the entire cast was absent until the literal final fight with Omega which was weird on everyone's end.)
But yeah, you can even be informed of Gohan's character through his Daughter Pan, consistently displayed to have a burning hot sense of justice likely from both her parents. It burns so hot she gets into trouble.
Heck, Gohan even expressed interest in SSJ4 at the end. Showing a drive for improvement. Granted, I think it's a bit weird that Vegeta and Goku surpassed Gohan, but I will give that to them being more dedicated gym rats than Gohan.
Ultimately I don’t think gohan will ever permanently be the strongest main cast member, because a. Goku and by extension Vegeta are so iconic as mc’s at this point it’s out of the mangaka’s hands Goku and Vegeta are too iconic of a duo to ever go without
@@Jman.Mp4 It was never out of Tori or Toyo's hands. When he was writing Buu Saga in the 90s, Tori thought Gohan wasn't suited to being the MC, which I disagree with, but at least is rooted in his understanding of his characters and the world he built. But in modern Tori and Toyo's case, I think it is because they lack courage to move on from Goku and Vegeta and/or the writing skill to do so. Imagine if DC Comics after COIE thought Barry Allen was too iconic as The Flash to ever go without and immediately undid his death? We would have never gotten all the amazing stories of Wally West growing into The Flash mantle and eventually surpassing Barry. In fact, DC Comics bringing back Barry Allen in Final Crisis shares a lot of parallels with Tori and Toyo deciding to make Goku and Vegeta the sole main characters of Super and consistently relearn what they already learned years ago. That and rehash themes and concepts already exploded, often in greater detail and/or in greater depth. Namely, creators ruining the natural progression of their story in order to be able to fall back on the crutch that is nostalgia.
I definitely agree that limiting goku and vegeta to being the main characters is definitely a limiting factor stemming from a lack of courage, and that there are infinite interesting stories to tell that aren’t being told when just focusing on them.
GT Gohan learned his lesson and never stopped training even if the last threat to Earth was 15 years ago. Without it he wouldn't be able to battle General Rilldo and other villains who escaped hell nor would his Saiya power make Goku strong enough to defeat Baby and go against Omega Shenron until Vegeta arrived. GT Gohan is a hero.
Yeah that’s what I keep hearing about him in GT
@@Jman.Mp4youll hear this with a lot of characters lmao its why the current mangaka for super got hired. he was a GT sequel a writer. they definitely were glazing goku in GT but the relative main cast had lots of personality growth where they lacks screentime or feats
Yeah he wrote Dragon Ball AF right?
Agreed with the thumbnail, don't need to see the rest.
Glad to see it expressed my thesis so well
way too good of a video for only having 5k views, can’t wait for more
Thank you so much!
As regards to Super Hero, I think Piccolo was speaking in hyperbole when he said he didn't have problems with weighted clothing as a child. I'm sure that weight was way more than it was when he was a kid (or maybe the same weight as he had when he was SSJ before Cell).
I think also the fact that Gohan blocked Piccolo's strike showed that Gohan did do SOME training. Just not improving from where he was post ToP much if at all. Otherwise it would make Beast mode look like a total ass-pull he could have done any time during Super.
See the thing is I believe beast mode IS an asspull, if it’s supposed to be the end result of all this “potential” we’ve been talking about since he was a kid, what is the ultimate form? You’re right that it’s implied he trains a little but it can’t be anything crazy considering that he couldn’t sense piccolo’s ki, which again is something he could do as a kid.
And whether the weight is from saiyan saga or cell saga, that still makes him weaker than he was as a kid.
That’s so true
Team Four Star put it best in a way that would really explain his behavior. Gohan is a coward in the disguise of a pacifist. That would go along way to explain his constant slipping, it's not that he forgets that an invasion is possible, he prays that an invasion is impossible.
Yeah that’s certainly a more interesting way to look at it
@@Jman.Mp4 In that way, he's even worse than a person that doesn't use their powers with responsibility. At least they're using their powers even if for only their own benefit. If they have any level of reasonablility they can be convinced to help others and might not even mind, so helping others might become a thing they just do later on. Gohan doesn't want to use his gifts for personal fun so he let's them rot. I think if I was to give instant transmission to anyone in this comment section for an example they could come up with a million uses. Vacations, getting to work without the commute, knocking over banks, saving people from fires, no one would let it just be. People want powers because they want to use those powers, it is the greater sin to have them and refuse to use them than have them and use them for evil. Me, I'd use instant transmission for vacations and make money with no effort.
That's why TFS is completely right and why he's pretty much useless on the team.
Gohan is the strongest and the hero when Goku fails(or when Goku is in very different place).
Gohan is not always hero but he is still the best hero. Goku is fighting for himself, he really enjoy this. Gohan is fighting to protect everyone.
He does commonly fight less for himself and for the fate of the world
Gohan fans can’t read?
All that is true except for the “Goku fights for himself” bit, seriously y’all, Watch the series.
Yeah, your right about Gohan!
Thank you!
I think the reason why Gohan is the way he is is because his relationship with fighting is much different than anyone elses.
By the time he was five years old he saw so many deaths (against Nappa and on Namek), and associated fighting with war and pain and death. From the moment his Uncle showed up to the end of the Cell saga, Gohan was in constant peril, fighting not because he wants to, but because he has to.
Goku on the otherhand, just wanted to fight strong guys and he wanted to become stronger, which was his interest as well as the other fighters. Goku didn't experience death until he was a teenager and even then no where near the brutality of someone like Frieza. All of the fighters except Gohan were driven to train and that was their whole identity.
Gohan never wanted that for himself. And when he snapped and became a SSJ2 all of those years of being forced into war broke down.
Keep in mind too that Gohan got his hubris from his Father and in the Abridged version actually calls out Goku's hubris when Goku tells him to kill Cell. Gohan brings up the fact he let Vegeta escape when he initially came to Earth, and he let Frieza power up to full power and even after Goku defeats him, tries to let him go. And of course against Cell, he gave Cell a senzu bean before Gohan started fighting.
After Cell was destroyed, Gohan finally had time where he didn't have to train for another war. And to be fair on his part, the biggest threat in Trunks's future was the androids and now at least Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo could now take out threats on that level easily. Because Buu never showed up in Trunks's future, he didn't feel the need to train for another war. He had time to explore his interests finally. And considering him being raised by a single mother whose husband's love for battle resulted in his death and his son's trauma, it would make sense why she would push Gohan away from fighting, since it was directly associated with said trauma.
The younger Trunks and Goten got to experience most of their childhood with training being a hobby, be exposed to it as something enjoyable, not something they HAD to do. Chi-chi taught Goten how to fight because he didn't have any trauma associated with it. And Vegeta trained with Trunks as a means of protecting him from possible death (since he saw the Future version die in front of his eyes).
And here's something to consider too, in Z, Gohan is the only one who uses his ability actively to handle smaller threats. When it wasn't a world-ending threat, he was the ONLY one to step up as a hero (Saiyaman), while the others just trained. Krillin is the only one who actually uses his power for good in Super as a cop.
Ignoring post Buu material, we don't know how strong everyone is at the end of the original manga. So those who think Gohan should continue training can assume he did, and those who don't think Gohan should continue traing can assume he didn't.
That’s a great point about him as the great saiyaman, but what I’d disagree with is that he was ALWAYS pushed towards battle as a kid. He knew that namek would be dangerous and decided to go anyway, did he know he was going to have to fight frieza? Absolutely not, but once faced with that reality he chose to fight to protect the namekians still alive, this arc presents the whole scholar idea as something that chi chi’s pushing on him and they really he wants to hang out with the z fighters in that arc at least.
I love your point about the end of z though
Gohan IS misshandeled in every damn saga he just commits the same mistakes and didnt learn ANYTHING from the cell saga
That’s because he was just a plot device in Cell Saga. He had no character.
It’s really unfortunate how he was handled later on in Z and in Super since he had so much potential both as a character and in terms of strength.
@ when was he ever handled well?
Great Saiyaman. Great Saiyaman was when he was handled well.
@@pn2294 YES, I've been saying it for years
Meh, I was actually writing a very long ass comment about how Gohan didn't slack off on his training in most of the alternate timelines, but TH-cam closed on me so I lost what I was writing, but my point was going to be that its only in bad stories such as in Super, that they basically reset all the character's growing arcs since even Vegeta had grown by the end of Z, but they also reset him as well, so its a shame that the most recent DB story has basically betrayed the characters in its story. I would encourage people to look more into Gohan in the alternate timelines though, as he was often the key player in those stories, such as he was the only person that was able to train Future Trunks and acquired Super Saiyan on his own, or how for games like the Dragon Ball Online MMO, it was Gohan's training and research notes on it, that allowed for the descendants of that game to get even stronger and learn things such as Ki control and etc.
Yes this is an important point, gohan isn’t the only character that’s misrepresented in super, while I’m not sure exactly how to articulate it, vegeta’s character regresses heavily until basically the moro arc when toei got off Toyotaro and he seemingly had more creative freedom
Gohan shows the fight of todays culture of "follow your heart" vs what your obvious destiny/purpose is
Great way to put it
I'm pretty sure aside from the Spider-Man comparison, this is the general consensus of Gohan
Agreed
The fundamental difference between Goku and Gohan is that Goku actively enjoys combat. Remember he let Vegeta live solely because he wanted to fight him again and beat him. There's a reason why "Hey it's me Goku. You look strong, wanna fight?" is a meme.
Gohan does not enjoy combat in the same way his father does, despite the fact that he's very good at it. He's been exposed to and potentially traumatised by violence since he was a child. Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, and Frieza basically beat on a kid who had no real means of fighting back against them. Problem is, Dragon Ball never deeply explored how these events affected Gohan and whether they made him dislike fighting. This could have been a genuine character growth moment for him where he acknowledges how he doesn't really like to fight but realises he has to overcome it in order to be the protector Earth needs him to be.
It would have been so interesting to see if it really effected him and THAT’s why he doesn’t train, but he doesn’t shy away from fighting, just refuses to train, it could be such an interesting arc for him to overcome his trauma from having to fight at such a young age but it just never happened
I genuinely believe, that Gohan was just messing with Piccolo in the beginning of Super Hero. Like, he was purposely hiding from him, what he knew he was capable of already. Idk, maybe I'm wrong, but that's the vibe that I got from their first interaction in the film.
And, let's not forget how surprised Piccolo was with Gohan at the end of the film... Gohan has, time and time again, always blew our expectations out of the water. He's like the super great surprise character, who has an awesome trick under his sleeve. Who knows how he'll pay off again in the main story?
Yeah I really hope I’m wrong honestly, if Gohan gets better after superhero I’ll be super happy
@Jman.Mp4 Yeah. Time will tell. Some fans speculate that he may have a major role in Daima and that he didn't get affected by the wish. Who knows?
@Jman.Mp4 I do absolutely agree on your perspective though, that Gohan does not always follow the same important principles that Goku, and even now Vegeta follow. If 2 characters who were once his father's greatest enemies (Piccolo and Vegeta), can follow the hero's code to a fault, then why can't Gohan? It seems like he's finally learning, especially by the end of Super Hero. But who knows for sure? Let's hope so. He can't let Pan down, that's for sure.
Also, I have recently made a video talking about the best way to watch DBZ, if you're interested. I touch on the history of home releases, alongside the fan team known as Seed of Might in my video. It's a very important video, that talks about preservation, and I highly recommend it to any Dragon Ball fan.
I’ll definitely check it out, thanks for the recommendation!
I hope he does, though the fact that he hasn’t shown up yet makes me nervous
Thank you for break downs of this perspective. Very good
Thank you for your comment, glad you enjoyed!
Unc Ben with the bombastic side eye.
Dude, iv'e been making this same comparisson betwen gohan and Spiderman in my head for years.
Good to know im not the only one, great vid!
Thank you so much, glad you agree!
Maybe Gohan studies himself to death, and that gives him a zenkai boost!
Haha here’s hoping 🤞
He truly is the father of all potential men
True!
@@planetbirthday6859 best blv he really is just the legendary potential-man 🥱🥱
@@planetbirthday6859 best blv he truly is just the legendary potential-man
Is Piccolo Gohan's Uncle Ben?
I would argue that he’s trying to be
i think gohan is actually pretty in character for actually not training alot. he's always been forced to fight when he never wanted to, and then was told to protect the earth without proper guidence, it sounds like piccolo never trained with gohan over those 7 years nor has vegeta tried to train with him either. he was a always more of a watch on the guidelines and dad"ll save the day, which has always worked for him. actually super hero did it right when they had gohan have to face what its like when goku isnt around, he had to face that he had to actually try and that his dad wont always be there to clean up the mess, the only time that happened before is the cell saga.
I actually do love that aspect of super hero and I may have misrepresented how I feel about the movie.
I don’t hate the movie at all, in fact I love it, I just don’t love the way gohan speaks and acts in the begining.
at the same time, if a robber threatens your family because you never lock your front door, eventually you would lock it. gohan is the type of person to keep it unlocked anyways.
thats my issue with him.
I think the long of the short of it is, Goku usually fights because he enjoys it and it just so happens to save the world. Gohan usually fights ONLY because he is forced into it.
But if you think about irresponsibility, consider that Goku is basically "with great power comes no responsibility", much moreso than Gohan with the following examples:
1. He left the reincarnation of the Demon King Piccolo go at the end of Dragon Ball, giving him a senzu bean even.
2. He let Vegeta leave Earth after they all defeated him, even telling Krillin to stop seeing vengence.
3. He tried to let Frieza go after he defeated him, even trying to give him some power (which got thrown back in his face).
4. When Trunks told Goku about the androids, the first thought wasn't to try to prevent the androids from existing, but rather train and test himself against them (all of the Dragon Team is at fault for this one too, especially the humans).
5. Giving Cell a senzu bean before Gohan fights him.
6. He didn't use SSJ3 against Majin Vegeta and knock him out quickly.
7. He didn't use his remaining power to kill Buu the first time as he thought the kids should do it.
8. Goku telling Kid Buu his hopes his power is reincarnated so he can fight again. For all we know Uub could have ended up being evil on his own accord (as there are evil humans) and just happen to have Buu's powers, so he is an even bigger threat.
9. Not a specific example, but Goku never did any crime fighting (like Gohan and Krillin), or seeking out threats to the universe and stopping them.
10. Also not a specific example, but Goku (nor anyone else) ever sought out the Namekian Dragon Balls to revive loose ends (i.e. the city Nappa destroyed, the Namekians Vegeta killed, anyone who wasn't brought back after the Cell games because they had died and were brought back previously with the Earth Dragon Balls).
Yes some of these outcomes turned out well in the end, particularly the eventual turn from bad to good for Piccolo and Vegeta, and Good Buu existing, but a lot of these lead to many unnecessary deaths, some of which could have been prevented.
That’s very true, goku has done a lot of very irresponsible selfish things
Great video, bro. I hope this blows up cause this is truly something else 🗿🗿
Thank you! I’m so glad you enjoyed it!
@Jman.Mp4 ur welcome, bro. I tried to tell people gohan is just like peter parker, but they don't listen
Dude fr, while I was writing this video Totallynotmark made a connection between the two, it’s RIGHT THERE
@Jman.Mp4 gohan is the spider-man of db before the great power great responsibility role 👍
I agree 👍
Gohan was also the only Z Warrior in DBZ who used his time to be a true hero as a Great Sayaman and protected a lot of innocents.
I fully agree with this I’m glad someone put into words!
Thank you very much! Glad I could help
My issue with Gohan has been that, for all his "Hidden Power" moments to awesome, he ultimately exists as a plot device rather than a character, as well as being character assassinated in his own series. Gohan had both literal and writing potential, but he doesn't reach it. Gohan doesn't get developed where he should, despite all the reason he can.
Gohan's purpose throughout all of Dragonball Z until the Cell Games was to use his Hidden Power to stall the villain until Goku was able to beat the villain, that's it. He is scared of fighting in the Saiyan Saga, which his arc is about getting over that, and then Gohan never has any issues fighting all until the Cell Games... where he suddenly hates fighting, in direct contradiction to his entire character up to that point. In fact, it's in contradiction to Gohan's entire character in the lead up to the Cell Games themselves. Gohan's whole motivation for going Super Saiyan just before the Cell Games was realizing just how useless he had been up until that point, and wanting to overcome that. Then Gohan gets to the Cell Games and in a retcon to end all retcons says he hates fighting, which has stuck to his character ever since.
Gohan then proceeds to, because of his inexperience in fighting and arrogance, get his father killed. This, more than any other moment in his life, should have taught Gohan that even if he really really hates fighting, he needs to step up and keep himself ready for the next threat. As the video mentions however, Gohan completely misses the lesson the Cell Games gave him... and doesn't train for seven years, resulting in Gohan being much weaker than he could be.
Anyway, Gohan's failure to train means he is completely unprepared for Babidi and Majin Buu. Failing to learn his lesson upon getting Ultimate form, he makes the exact same mistakes that got Goku killed during the Cell Games, leading to Gohan's absorption and complete irrelevance for the rest of the arc. Then worst of all, even after his failure to be prepared resulted in catastrophe, in both GT and Super, two separate timelines, Gohan STILL doesn't train! Meaning Gohan fails to learn his lesson multiple times in multiple timelines!
In short, Gohan's problem is a lack of development and his purpose as a plot device rather than a character. Gohan keeps getting reset to go through the exact same arc over and over because Toriyama didn't know what to do with Gohan anymore. And the entire reason for it is because if Gohan were to train even half as hard as Vegeta or Goku, then he would render both entirely irrelevant. Which Toriyama could have solved simply by showing that after the Cell Games Gohan "hit a ceiling" with his potential and now advances at roughly the same rate as everyone else. In fact, Toriyama could have done that at any point along the line while he was still alive. In fact, simply have Gohan train SOME while taking time for his family and his career while having his potential allow Gohan to keep up would have been good enough. Gohan doesn't have to train all day every day. Just take an hour a day to train, that's it.
There were a lot of ways that Gohan could have continued the series as an interesting character, I don’t even hate his arc in the Buu saga, but it’s the refusal to do anything new with him after that that REALLY gets me, I hope that when the manga gets picked back up he will strike a balance in his life and finally have some forward movement towards a new character arc for the first time since the cell games, which seems to be the case from the few chapters post super hero we have so far
@@Jman.Mp4 Yeah, but I'm not holding my breath. Toriyama had at least a half dozen opportunities to develop Gohan just in DBZ alone and didn't take a single one, with putting Gohan up to take out Cell being the only real development Gohan ever actually got. Post DBZ hasn't been much better, as your video shows. Future writers tend to stick with tradition.
Yeeeeeah, but a man can dream
In short terms this is like if Superman stop being a hero because there’s other heroes and he wants to be around his family more you can’t blame him but yet u can’t respect it either all the power in the world and you chose to be normal it sounds noble into you think about it
That’s an interesting way of looking at it for sure
Great video. New sub
Thank you so much, I really appreciate your subscription!
Damn, I wanna be Spider-Man for that sweet sweet power of Instant Abs!
Clearly that’s the best one
Gohan could’ve been better 🗿
Agreed
In DBS manga Gohan train since Black Arc in the Gravity Room he's always ready to protect the planet Earth.
This is your most successful video, I like spider man and dragon ball
Glad I could provide a combo for you!
@@Jman.Mp4Unfortunately, Most of your comments prove the worst stereotypes about dragon ball fans.
There's more than one way to save the world, but this is Toriyama's world, a dragon ball z/super world. So Gohan's research and studies never amount to anything. It would be nice if he used his knowledge of ants etc to save the world, or maybe even help him beat an opponent that Goku and Vegeta failed to, due to his specialized knowledge.
It really would, it but definitely comes off as self indulgent in most scenes where it doesn’t have to
You've found your niche my man!
Excellent dissection! Keep it going1
Thank you so much, I really appreciate the support!
🎵I am so high
I can hear ever🎵
good one, i hope this goes popular
Thank you so much!
Gotta give it to my beloved Dragon Ball: for all its inconsistencies and plotholes, Gohan decision to not be a fighter has remained absolutely consistent.
Lmaoo that’s true
Slight correction. Goku was fighting at full strength but he didn’t know if Cell was.
Cell still thought he could take Goku if Goku got a senzu mid match and later when he powered up to max against SSJ2 Gohan, everyone minus Gohan were shocked.
Yeah you’re completely right
It’s not impossible to write Gohan to be a happy family man, as well one of the best fighters to face off against inevitable threats. Goku and Vegeta aren’t model family men, but there exist scenes where they both spend time with their families and show love in their own ways. Where I think super fails Gohan is that he repeatedly makes the same mistakes he made against Cell and Buu. He could’ve been written to show he’s an experienced fighter whose learned from his mistakes and kept up with his training, but as well a loving father who cares a great deal for his family and has something to lose when any number of threats arise the cast need to beat. The turtle hermit way is to eat, sleep, play, and study alongside marital arts training to live a good life and make the most of your training, Gohan could’ve been written to demonstrate all of this through his positive relationship with his family, alongside his innate well of strength to find balance with his family and his responsibility to stand up to threats against the universe.
I’ve been waiting for this banger
He does have Saiyan-like characteristics he enjoys fighting (though battles where lives are at stake are exceptions), married a strong woman, the strongest on Earth, and has a "beastly" rage when he gets angry. He also shows pride on some occasions. However, he has a very strong human mindset. He was somewhat traumatized-he practically grew up fighting against Saiyans. Even as a child, he fought against the emperor of the universe. So, this aspect should be taken into account. But would a human not sacrifice themselves to at least protect their family? Dedicating himself solely to studies is pure negligence.
Very elegantly put
Gohan made mistakes too but I can understand he was a child in the Freeza Saga, Android Arc and was only 16 years old in the Buu Saga only a Teenager.
If i was Goro, This video would get 4 thumbs up
I really appreciate that!!
great video bro
Thank you!
Cell getting to that point was Goku's fault.
How so?
@@Jman.Mp4 Goku could've not given Cell a senzu bean or teamed with Gohan to fight him instead of making it 1v1. Putting the responsibility to a 12 year old is a terrible idea.
I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s a terrible idea seeing as it worked
@@Jman.Mp4 It got him killed and nearly failed.
But he didn’t
Gohan never wanted to be a hero, he was forced into violent situations.
But he may eventualy have no other choice but to live as a hero because danger exist out there and not having the power to face it if it come will cost him everything.
It seems like he has to face the reality that he has to train multiple times for it to truly stick, luckily he seems to be keeping up after Super Hero but we don't have very much after it yet.
Dragon Ball are in my life since 90s and I can't let people say a lot of Fake News about Gohan.
Awesome video
Thank you so much I really appreciate that!
I feel like we can cut Gohan a break. The dude can absolutely afford to prioritize his own life over fighting. But when he can't, he always steps up.
The thing is he isn’t prioritizing his life over fighting, hens prioritizing his life over the lives of countless innocents which are at risk due to his in action
But you’re right, he does step up to fight when called to action
@@Jman.Mp4I didn't want to interfere but Goku is more irresponsible than Gohan.
Let's see how horrible Character are Goku :
*Goku let Vegeta live out of selfishness even after he was responsible for the death of his friends.
*Promised to revive Frieza, Goku left him free to return to enslaving races across the universe.
*Refused Bulma idea of using Shenron to find Dr. Gero laboratory and stop his plans because prefer fight abd doesn't care that much about innocent people, even after Future Trunks warned him of the danger of the Androids.
*Goku sit and do nothing while Fat Buu massacre the humanity in DBZ and against Kid Buu Goku tells Vegeta that he could have easily beaten Fat Buu.
Goku is an extremely selfish man, Look as a Gohan fan I don't understand why fans want to talk bad about Gohan, the most psychopathic character in Dragon Ball is Goku.
@@Jman.Mp4Gohan are the only Warrior Z that tried be a Hero Vigilant in DBZ to protect humans he's the most pure character of Dragon Ball.
Indirectly Goku caused many deaths in the Android Saga out of selfishness, Goku could easily have used Shenron to find Gero laboratory and stop him before he created the Androids.
I think that this is one of the many reasons I kind of stopped liking Gohan post-Cell, or at least liking him significantly less. The Cell saga is where Gohan's arc finishes and the Buu saga reverts his growth and has him making the same mistakes he already learned from. And he stops his training despite Goku leaving, denying the responsibility of being Earth's new protector and immediately falls behind his father in terms of power. And his way of catching up to Goku is one of the worst in the entirety of Z, a power up given to him because someone had to get it, not because he earned it in any way or grow. At least the Guru power up can be seen as a reward for his selflessness and kindness to the Namekians.
Yeah I definitely agree with Guru's power up being a reward for his kind heartedness, and that the Elder Kai upgrade kind of came out of nowhere, it seems like he was backed into a corner in terms of Gohan's strength and had to resort to a random upgrade rather than a planned earned boost like with Guru.
If we look at it like that, is ANYONE a hero in Dragon Ball?
Sure, when the World/Universe is in peril, Goku rises to meet the threat, but So does Gohan. (And most of the Z fighters, really) Even if Gohan's ultimately not as effective as Goku because of his lack of power, he still takes the time, and puts his life on the line when it becomes necessary.
Hell, ironically, if you consider that Gohan is a Scholar, and also has his Saiyaman Shtick, Vs Goku who, when there aren't any World/Universe-Ending Threats (Which is most of the time), just indulges in his hobbies all day (which just so happens to be training), while Wolfing down the boatloads of food his wife has to cook for him, Gohan is actually more consistently, and actively helping and saving people than Goku is.
That’s an interesting way to think about it
In Manga Gohan fight 100% serious against Super Buu the Arrogant Personality are 100% Toei, Kaioshin Fault too that doesn't tell Gohan about Buu capacity of absorb Warriors.
"With Great Power, there must also come Great responsibility" is the actual quote.
There must also come makes a huge difference. The one the Raimi movie botched implies that having Great Power inherits you a great responsibility. But that's not the point. If that were the case, the villains wouldn't be villains. What the quote is saying is that when you have great power, you must use it responsibly. And that's what Gohan does. You can argue his inaction is a misuse of his power, but he has put his life on the line for right cause time and time again and sometimes unwillingly. I dont think its fair to say that he doesn't live up to the mantra.
The correct one at least.
I think you’re looking at it wrong
You’re reading that power comes with the responsibility required, whereas the quote is most likely intended to read that power comes with a burden to act, which is an inherently different idea
@Jman.Mp4 I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying the responsibility is a decision you have to make. Not that it's a two for one combo.
That’s interesting, do you mind expanding that?
I'm sorry, your opening statement hit me a lot harder than I was expecting and I did not listen past the first minute. Because I believe your premise is fundamentally flawed.
When a war veteran comes home (assuming it was a just war), we do not say "look, see, you're good at being a soldier, you must also be a soldier for us in the next just war." We thank them if they choose to re-enlist. But we support our veterans who say "I did my part" and now just want a quiet life. It doesn't seem like you're arguing that Gohan did not do his part. You agree that he was essential in preventing Vegeta and Nappa from ravaging the Earth, as well as playing a key role in defeating the Frieza army, and that he took point in defeating Cell.
He did his part.
And now he wants to live a quiet life. He is allowed to do that. He is allowed to say "I experienced a constant and unbelievable trauma from age 3 to age 12, and now I have done my time, and I just want to study my little books and hug my little family and live my little life." That doesn't contradict Uncle Ben. When Gohan wielded his power, he did so responsibly. When moral decisions were before him, he made good choices. But he is not compelled to always wield his power, and he is not compelled to guarantee that he always has power, or that he is always in a position to make the best moral choice.
As we wait in January of 2025 for the new US administration to be inaugurated, and wait for the inevitable attacks they will launch against already-marginalized communities, I know a lot of people within those communities who are looking for ways to leave the country. People who have done good things. People who have fought, and have won and lost, and who would be invaluable resources for protecting members of their communities if they chose to stay.
But I cannot ask them to keep fighting. I cannot ask them to spend whatever precious years they have left in pain because others would benefit from the product of their pain. That is a choice they must be allowed to freely make. And if Uncle Ben meant that they should not be allowed that choice if they want to be respected for the things that they have done, well, then that would mean that Uncle Ben is the greatest Spider-Man villain of them all.
Keep making videos, guy. We use thoughts about fiction to process our thoughts about life, and that's important no matter what path it takes us down.
Thank you for your thoughtful response, though I do still disagree with your take.
The main difference between our views of Gohan post-cell is that I don’t believe it’s fair to compare Gohan to a real life soldier, as in real life a soldier can be replaced in terms of war effort and manpower, Gohan can’t.
I make this point far later in the video so I understand that you didn’t see it but speaking about war when it comes to super powers and non super powered individuals invited stark contrast, the reason Peter Parker and Gohan are made to keep fighting well after they’re comfortable is that there are only a handful of people who are physically capable of participating in these wars, if there were millions of people who could take Gohan or Spider-Man’s place then yes it would be cruel to ask them to continue fighting, but as the only people who can fight in a war for the safety of the earth for their entire densely populated universe in multiple cases for both, they are burdened with far more responsibility than is a. Fair and b. Realistically comparable to a real world situation.
My main point for Gohan being a disappointment is that even following your understanding of the situation, even considering that he doesn’t have to fight anymore, he actually calls HIMSELF back to duty after the Buu saga, he understands that if he doesn’t train and keep himself strong than his family could die AGAIN, as they did the first time directly because he didn’t heed the call of responsibility. After all the trauma he’s gone through he still chooses to fight in all these battles, yet doesn’t do what he acknowledges himself that he must do in order to make meaningful contribution to said fight. Even considering your view on him, it’s not like he shies away from battle when called, or even seems to be bothered by the idea of fighting again in the slightest, note in resurrection F where he treats frieza’s return to be something of a friendly get together with his old pals and not a resurfacing of past trauma, but the important part is that he ignores his training in between, causing the lives of all those living in the world to be at stake because he couldn’t spend an hour a day at the gym.
He chooses to fight, but doesn’t do what’s necessary to win, that’s the key difference in our understanding.
I hope this doesn’t come of as disrespectful I just believe you misunderstand my intention.
@@Jman.Mp4 Gohan fights whenever there are threats. But he doesn't train hard during peace time to stay in top shape. You can't be a top shape saiyan while trying to have a proper earthling career. So in the end he chooses the earthling life.
Agreed, I also think that there can be a balance, training doesn't have to take over your life, but it should be a part of it if not doing so puts the lives of everyone and everything you hold dear at risk.
Except for the Trump butthurt that you have tried to sneak in on your comment,i can agree with it.
@@Jman.Mp4Gohan is replaceable though. Everytime Gohan fails to defeat an enemy from the Buu saga to the end of Super there is someone stronger that can finish the fight.
And Gohan isn't alone in not doing what it takes to win, he gets that shit honestly from his dad.
Let's be real out of all the Z Warriors only Future Gohan and Future Trunks are heroes, Goku made so many mistakes that if Dragon Balls didn't exist the humanity would have been extinct in the Buu Saga.
Gohan does Piccolo dirty
Yeah he really does
Amazing video, deserve 500k views at least
Thank you so much, that really means the world!
I agree with everything you said. The man has family now he should work even harder to protect his family. I enjoyed the Super Hero movie but Gohan did not deserve that power up because he didn't worked for it. On another note Goten and present Trunks are utter failures. Hopefully the writers set up Uub and Pan to be the new protectors of earth.
I’m REALLY interested to see what they do with Uub and Pan in the future
With the Buu saga, I wish it was a combined effort in the end. I mean yeah the Spirit Bomb, but I'd rather it be Gohan, Gotenks, Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku, with the younger generation making some decisive blows. Sure we can keep Goku as the main protagonist if he fits that role better (he does imo, he is way to iconic not to), but like in Super, I think Gohan should be on a similar level to Goku and Vegeta, so that when those two are away, he takes the lead. The Boruto series is a good example of this, despite its flaws, I think it executes the father/son protagonist concept much bette(and Bleach if Kubo continues the Hell arc). And I agree, Gohan should keep up with his training. I also wish the humans had their own film so they can shine again (Krillin ,Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu). I hope there is some kinda of villain that can only be defeated by human hands. Proving that alien strength alone can't protect the world.
what hurts the most is he stopped fighting for the family life but ended up neg;ecting them on accident because his work got in the way. he is just like a real-life person now
Yeah really ironic in that sense
Hes a hero though. Pretty sure saving the world makes you one lol
I would think putting it right back in danger when you know how to prevent that sets you right back
The problem with Gohan, Goten, and Trunks is that if they ever consistently trained, let alone trained as much as their fathers, there would be no little conflict in the story without them hesitating, getting cocky, and/or the villain(s) getting asspull power ups (ex. Black Frieza). Moreover, everyone in the story who isn't a GoD, Angel, or Broly, including Goku and Vegeta, would be irrelevant when it comes to fighting. When Gohan consistently trains for a good period of time he is the strongest hero, and is usually one rage boost away from being the strongest character in an arc. Goten and Trunks as kids are at worst stronger than Namek Frieza, and guidebooks have them on early Buu Saga MSSJ Gohan's level.
Yeah that’s a really good point
It be funny if Superhero was in its own weird timeline lol
It's definitely canon to the manga but it remains to be seen if the movie is canon to the anime, I would assume so though.
One thing I think is crazy is, and I know how this is going to sound, but in the Tom Holland version of Spiderman, they gave Uncle Ben's line to Tom Holland's version of Aunt May. Don't get me wrong, but while it tsnt really entirely a bad thing for a woman to use the line, I think the line is more impactful for a young man if it is told to him by man who is that young man's father, the one who he probably looked up to all his young life.
I can understand why you would think that
Great video. Deserves all the attention in the world
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that!
Great video. i hope this blows up cause this truly is something else 🗿🗿🗿@Jman.Mp4
Thank you!
Freeza isn't going to die you guys!
Because he's alive in Neko Majin Z which is cannon to dragon ball And he has a son.
also Uub lives with goku in his family.
This is cannon and was written by toriyama on himself!
I aint think this comparison works because Peter is the only one with super powers, while in Dragonball, there are Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, the androids, and the humans to pick up his slack. Goku and Vegeta are the most powerful because, while they love their family, the actively love fighting, sometimes over the fate of the world (the android saga could've been avoided, and the whole majin vegeta fight). I think it's a lot more interesting to have a character that doesn't keep up, that's what made the buu saga interesting to me, it's just been pulled 2-3 too many times already. gohan should train more, even as one of his flaws, he should, but it would also betray his character if that's his number one thing he does all the time. Even Goku says it's ok for him to enjoy being a scholar over a warrior, so why wouldn't he?
side note, the weighted clothing in super hero doesn't mean he's weaker than himself in the saiyan saga, he's probably just not used to it anymore. I you ran backwards all the time when you were little, you wouldn't be able to immediately adjust to doing that at the same level. also, if he was that weak, wouldn't he lose ultimate like in resurection F?
You're not wrong, but his comparison is spot on cause gohan is just that type of character power with no responsibility, just as he said it. Gohan is constantly thinking that goku and vegeta will always be there to get the job done. When we, as the viewer, know, that's not the case because gohan is the spider-man before he takes the great power great responsibility role. But your point is very much still valid.
I WOULD agree with your original point if peter parker’s story didn’t originate from the comic world where he’s far from the only one with powers, yes the example I talked about is the movies where it’s just him but the context of his creation is important.
That being said, while Goku and Vegeta can handle a lot, they can’t take everything, like Black Frieza for example who is still around and far stronger than the two of them. Gohan can easily surpass them with the right attitude and they can’t stand up to frieza as things stand.
Piccolo also says that the weighted clothing are too heavy on him and that it was light as a kid, meaning at the most generous he’s around pre cell saga time chamber strength, but most likely saiyan invasion level as I said in the video.
Can you do a video about GT Gohan
I’d have to watch GT first but I’m interested to see what he does following the end of z so I definitely plan to check it out
Legit, every single one of this character's arc has been a remix of the incredibly well written arc in the Saiyan Arc, and it's always required him to be regressed backwards to fit in the story.
Fans have Stockholm syndromed themselves into the "Gohan doesn't WANT to fight, you meanie" even though in universe that is utterly nonsensical, and unfortunately shitty character writing.
Which is strange because he does fight, the issue isn’t him not wanting to fight, it ms him not taking the necessary precaution to make sure he can make a difference when he does
@Jman.Mp4 EXACTLY. Not wanting to fight, and not being the best you can be when you MUST fight is the issue, and something Toriyama already tackled with this character when he was 5 😭
Mostly agree, but I think there is implied slight mischaracterization of Goku, maybe even Vegeta. Heroic deeds of Goku and Vegeta are for the most part byproduct and not the central thing. They as a pure Saiyans are not training for heroism but for the pure thrill of the fight. They actually enjoy training and fighting villains, so going by their motives and the definition of heroism you used they shouldn't be considered heroes either. So going off of that, Piccolo might be the only one who could be considered an actual hero, maybe not even him all the time. Most if not all the others are either fighters who train for that reason or just a regulars who only train and fight as a last resort (Gohan, Krilin...).
On a side note, I think it is not a bad Idea to portray Gohan differently, he shouldn't be a carbon copy of his dad. And if he was put as someone who is better at juggling family and training than he would be almost like Vegeta. And there is plausible in world explanation for his acting, maybe not explicitly stated, that non pure Saiyans don't have such thirst for battle and training. It is often stated how battle hungry Goku and Vegeta are to the degree that they are willing to risk other's safety (mostly Goku) just to have a good fight or a sparring partner.
yeah except he got his ass handed to him multiple times and his father died and he should have acknowledged that 'The common denominator in those fights was me'
@@Foralltosee1623 That reasonable, at the end of the day he is not perfect character. I personally wouldn't want him to be either battle hungry maniac like Goku and Vegeta or Superman like hero. I'm satisfied the way he is.
Also I think at some point it was the idea of him replacing Goku as a main character, like Boruto did to Naruto, but I guess Goku and Vegeta were/are so popular that it was impossible to replace them. Maybe author's attempts to do such thing and than reverting back resulted in Gohan being the way he is.
I didn’t intend to imply it but I definitely agree that in super Goku has been heavily mischaracterized, while he has always prioritized his fighting instincts like when he hid SSJ3 from Vegeta and played rock paper scissors with him to decide who would fight Buu, those are far less egregious than things in super like forgetting the Mafuba seal which is so not Goku, if he has the wiggle room he’ll mess around, but he shouldn’t mess around if he doesn’t
@@Jman.Mp4 I'm not sure if it is just the issue of Super. I have seen that there are slight changes in Goku's characterization based on different versions of Sub/Dub, which give of slightly different vibe of Goku. I have watched it in 3 versions, English/Japanese/Serbian(my native) there are definitely visible differences. In English dub he often times does sound more mature, especially in the Z. Also I have heard, though I haven't checked, that even crossing from manga to anime Goku has been portrayed a bit more mature and less of an idiot regarding worldly things, also especially within Z. I won't even mention GT. The idea is that Super has stuck more to the manga version of Goku, and if they have given him progressively more maturity in Z compared to the manga, and than reverted in Super, I can see how that would be jarring.
Also he definitely showed some willingness to risk it at the expense of potential safety even though it would usually be rectified not by him but by the story. Remember how he saved Piccolo at the end of the 23rd Tenkaichi in the OG. He did it in part because of Kami, sure, but It was also stated that he did it to have a challenge/sparring partner. Actually I would argue that Goku acted more heroically, based on Ben's definition, in the OG, especially in the beginning, than he did in the later parts and in the Z/Super.
I can see how the difference between the dub and sub’s interpretation of Z Goku can make it feel more exaggerated for dub fans, but I do feel that super leans too far to the point of it being an oversimplification of Goku’s nuance in both versions (it’s been a while since I watched the sub though to be fair), the differences are summed up largely in goku’s I am the super saiyan speech on namek
Gohan is just puddlehan, but it's much, much worse, and it's not even funny. 15:21
After the buu saga gohan is more than a disappointment, it was just plain embarrassing to see 0:26
You are so right gohan really was more than a disappointment 😂😂 0:20
In the beginning of the resurrection of f movie he’s not even sure he can turn super saiyan, that’s disgraceful
@Jman.Mp4 gohan was never my favorite, but even then, i always appreciate what they did with gohan as a character so seeing him in super was just something else
It’s hard to watch really
At least he cleaned up a bit for the ToP and moro
@@Jman.Mp4 yea he kinda did. And your is getting more recognition 👏 I'm glad for you bro 🗿👍👉
I am tired of Gohan for leaning the same lesson over and over i didn't watch the the movie about Gohan getting a new form because i knew that he wasn't training after super when i saw the first trailer I just decided not to watch the movie because i knew it was going to make me mad
I understand that perspective, I don't hate the movie and think it's worth watching but I understand why people don't agree
@Jman.Mp4 yep
This is... weird.
Yes, DB characters aren't heroes. They weren't supposed to be. Especially in OG DB they are selfish jerks to each other.
You seem to have imputed statements that they never made to them. And your interpretation of Superhero is in error.
You appear to want DB to be something it isnt. Which is fine, but weird take.
At no point did I mean to imply that DB heroes ARE heroes, just that Gohan isn’t by Uncle Ben’s definition due to his actions in super, simply because it’s a fun idea I thought of.
You’re also projecting a lot of what you think my opinion on Dragon Ball is as a whole from an analysis on a single character from a lens other than my own. This isn’t intended to be my perspective of the whole series, but what I believe uncle Ben’s perspective would be on Gohan specifically.
@@Jman.Mp4 fair enough, if you are taking it from that perspective. It sounded more like you were making a normative judgment to me, so sorry I misunderstood.
I do still think you are interpreting Superhero saying things it isnt
@ I’m curious what you mean by that, do you mind explaining how you see it?
Being a "selfish jerk" doesn't prevent someone from being a hero. You don't have to be perfect to be a hero.
Gohan wants to be a hero. That’s HIS motivation. Not just being the strongest like his father.
That’s why he should be training.
I might not be 100% on this but Spider-Man and Gohan are not the same. Peter never had family like Gohan. Peter was the only one that was relied on as Spider-Man to save New York countless of times by himself at least in the movies so it makes sense why he must take that role and not be selfish with his responsibilities. Gohan had his dad his little brother and his friends that were Z fighters. I guess you can say Gohan truly never thought that he was the number one fighter to be relied(All depends how dangerous his world is in I'm sure he'll jump in and fight to protect it.) on saving the world especially since his dad Goku is the strongest one and loves fighting more. Plus I blame Chi-Chi for ruining Gohan's life as a hero. If she would have never forced him to study 24/7 in his early youth than he probably would have been a better hero than his Dad.
Yeah they definitely deal with different situations but I do think it’s a fair comparison, especially with 616 spider-man who has plenty of heroes he could let take over
Just a small correction that doesn't really matter much... But Cell wasn't going 100% vs Goku. Cell was only warmed up and ready to go all out. Cell admits he's only reached about 80% of his full fighting abilities vs Goku's best(sans Spirit Bomb). Cell had a bit more to go, and still had his Full Power form that makes him stronger but bulky and slower. So, Cell really had a lot in the tank when he fought Gohan. But again, not really important.
It’s been a while since I’ve gone through the manga so thanks for pointing that out!
Even with his Mistakes I feel Gohan are 10 times more heroic than Goku everyone know Son Goku only care about fights.
Is alot more fun 😂
Um Actually🤓☝,In Dbs Super Hero, Piccolo asked how did Gohan know special beam cannon and Gohan told him that he trained just a itsy bitsy amount for it.
Yet somehow not enough to be as strong as his 5 year old self
I believe he was hiding the fact that he was training by suppressing his energy
Gohan is a product of his mother being short-sighted. He could've chilled for a year or 2 to ease his mind but then she should've continued with his hero training as well as schooling, impressing how important his purpose as protector is
It’s interesting how early on in z the whole scholar thing was implied that chi chi forced it upon him, and he had to lie to her to go to fight on namek